Because the professional media are shills and puppets and these guys here are actually 'indoctrinated'. The difference is that these guys believe what they say. LOL. These people think they are doing god's work even though they are secular Zionists, and the other guys think they are deceiving and stealing conspicuously even though everybody knows how the grift works.
Haviv is a fantastic treasure to humanity. Everytime I listen to his view of the world, I learn some new, and good. Thank you for this conversation guys. ❤❤
Haviv, you should really be the minister of international PR for Israel. Your calm and elequent explanations will caputure the minds of those who listen to non stop disinfomation.
one thing he doesnt mention which is the who reason the whole world hates israel right now is the innocents and all the kids being killed the way palestinians are so dehumanised as if there not living creatures too is actually amazing
@@debguth they seem like prejudice, elicits who has it in their minds that a God who they don’t believe in gave them the land. Clearly the Rev. 2:9 & 3:9 versions.
Haviv's videos are pretty much the only ones I watch twice, and I rewind a bit too. Then usually I go and cross-check some stuff, and they check out. And I come out feeling much more informed.
because the people who work at the Cellar are directly affected by the conflict and not just bandwagonning like the D to B-list celebs who use the war to get attention
Haviv nailed it when he said U.S. media & academia has become a barren wasteland… an elitist morality theater, devoid of curiosity & critical thinking. SAD!
Disgusting racist people having conversation about people while denying that Israel is no more than a settler colonial project and an extend to American imperialism in the middle east which stands on subjugating the indigenous to non ending military occupation and apartheid system!
@@saja410: The Jewish people are #indigenous to the Holy Land. The Arabs are the invaders. Two million Arab Israeli citizens have *equal rights* with Jews. Their families accepted life in the Jewish state of Israel in 1948.
This man is by far the most intelligent and articulate person I have ever heard speak about Israel. This is the most interesting video I have ever watched. Thank you for the education! ❤Am Israel Chai
@@khadimndiaye7730 did you take no notice of the fact a Jewish Israeli has gone to pains to ensure he deeply understands the history, philosophy, and ideology of Islam. How many Palestinians have you seen do that? Or even other Jews do that? He’s also been vocally critical of Netanyahu’s coalition for years now. He was humanising and portraying Palestinians as 3D, complex human beings better than all the pro Palestine western advocates I’ve seen. Why would he do that if he doesn’t believe in a peaceful future for his region?
@@MegChurley Look, Islam is not the problem. Stealing land, ethnically cleansing it is. Also it’s a problem to try building this ethno state. So no, it doesn’t matter to me that an Israeli Jew learns Islam, what difference does it make? None at all. It’s ridiculous that you need somebody that study Islam to make you understand that Moslem ppl are human, just ridiculous
I love listening to this man. He seems like we are seeing him get even better in real time. My guess is that the two lectures to which Coleman refers are the Shalem college lectures. I highly recommend them. And this is another one to add to the list to share. Thank you!
@@pennylaprebendere7804: Two million Arabs are Israeli citizens today. They have equal rights and freedom of worship. Arab Muslim Israelis sit in the Knesset and on the Supreme Court, and they also serve in the military. It's the *hostile* Arabs who refuse to accept Israel as a sovereign Jewish state that are the problem.
Haviv single handedly has opened my mind and knowledge about Arab israeli conflict. This man is a tremendous asset for those who desire to know the truth about the root cause of most of the past 80 years of conflicts in the Middle East. I am a Muslim and Haviv has been able to open my mind and wash all the junk that my Muslim upbringing had shoved into my head about Israel and jews.
That's great. I'm Canadian and have spent much of my life absorbed in the Middle East and married an Egyptian Sunni and have lived in Egypt. Absolutely everyone should be listening to Haviv. There is far too much shallow and emotional thinking about Israel/Palestine and the area that takes place most everywhere.
this was AMAZING! thank you. It contained seeds of hope. Haviv why hasn't Piers Morgan called you?! Instead we get all these loonies speaking on our behalf
~46:00 mark - Coleman hits the nail right on the head calling out the racial binary BS. With all due respect, though, Haviv referring to Israelis of Ashkenazi descent as "white" doesn't exactly help matters. The Nazis never saw them as "Aryan" (SS equivalent of white European purity), and most Ashkenazim have roots in the Middle East. Diaspora sojourn in Europe doesn't magically make a people pure European.
Good points! They are "white" to the morons who subscribe to woke critical race theory but anyone who knows history knows they were not considered white by their haters.
I agree. He made so many thought-changing comments. Another one was how he divides the Middle East governments into 4 categories and how these categories aren't what most of us would have thought.
Adding another voice of encouragement to please write a book! The American historian Heather Cox Richardson wrote (and still writes) daily letters linking history and current events, since 2016, and has woven them into a book that will no doubt be an authoritative and enduring chronicle of our time. Haviv is the person who is best positioned to do something similar for Israel. All admiration and profound thanks for all your UA-cam lectures, interviews, and podcasts, from your devoted fan in Canada.
Good to see another Canadian does a deeper dive into this region of the world that 99% of other people. Thx for mentioning Richardson as I hadn't heard of her.
My God that's a lot of brainpower in one place. More than anyone else who comes to mind, when Haviv talks I completely lose track of time. The guy's intelligence, wisdom and perspective are absolutely mesmerizing.
@@shannonm.townsend1232 I'm reading his stuff, he's not too interested in peaceful coexistence with Israel is he? I guess that's a bit of a taboo, even if he were.
What a wealth of historical knowledge Haviv possess. Curious if Coleman has this same depth of knowledge? What do we learn here in US about world history? I consider myself well educated yet knew very little of what Haviv knows. It’s easy to sit on the other side of the world and assume we know what’s best for the Middle East. Haviv lives in the midst of all these different cultures and religions.
Haviv comes across as such a down to earth, humble, sincere guy. 💙💚 - Big shout out from Ireland ... don't worry there are some of us who can see the truth behind this and every attack the Palestinian Arabs perpetrate and perpetuate (with various nefarious neighbours).
„Even if there would be no settlements …“ this is something the Israelis like to point out so often. „The settlements don’t matter to the current conflict so we just continue the illegal settlements, even increase them, because the Palestinians don’t care about that.“ So long this denial of what the Palestinians want maintains, namely: a life in dignity on their own land, justice; they won’t be peace in the Middle East.
"So long they denial what the Palestinians want, namely a life in dignity on their own land, justice, they won’t be peace in the Middle East." But which is their own land? Can you please spell it out? Jenin or Jaffa? Hebron or Haifa? From the River to the Sea or the West Bank and Gaza? What is there to negotiate? Israel's existence or the occupation? And the occupation of what? Spell it out.
@@condovo as if there were not SEVERAL UN resolutions of how the partition looks like: at least! the whole of the Westbank, East-Jerusalem and Gaza. BUT Israel is sticking to none of them. No more illegal occupation, nowhere. This is a starting point. But in the Westbank, which Israel is illegally occupying, Israel recently legalized settlements, which ALL countries (also the biggest Israel supporters US, Germany, England, and so on) criticize. Spain thought it through and don't see a big difference to what Israel is doing to what Russia is doing. To be honest, I'm lacking the imagination to challenge this idea: Israel is doing the same as Russia, but they do it for decades now.
@@khadimndiaye7730Israel won Gaza and the West Bank in a defensive war! This is similar to the war of 1812 when borders between Canada and the USA were altered. Israel however, returned Gaza and the West Bank which was their only buffer to missiles and bombs consistently being lobbed into Israel. This bombing is NOT ok!
Every Jew in America should listen to this podcast because Haviv has told us our story as Jews. He has provided at least this American Jew with answers I didn't even know the questions to. The singular best podcast on this subject ever. Seriously. I have watched and listened to every podcast, lectures, interviews with Haviv since I found him on Dan Senors podcast "Call Me Back" Dan and Haviv already know the story, so they don't answer the simple question of "Our Story," They discuss the future, and that's great. But Dave and I are typical of most American Jews, we didn't know how to answer "Go Back to the Poland" jeers. "What you mean I should have let my father in law be gassed at Auschwitz like his parents and sister?" To us, it's such an unserious question and it's posed by radicals, so why bother. But we needed to know for OURSELVES the answer. We don't have to feel guilty. Israelis know they don't need to feel guilty. We didn't know we needed to not feel guilty too. Please come back on Dave's show and further discuss the settlements. I felt we were entering a whole new area of history and knowledge, I cried out, "No, keep going. I need to know more" and I know more than the average Jew about the history of the state of Israel, and the Palestinians than the average person. We never stop learning. The day we stop learning is the day we die. So please come back soon.
What a thoughtful comment. I'm NZ-Australian and a strong supporter of Israel and the right for Jewish self-determination in their ancestral homeland. My New Zealand grandfather fought against the Ottoman Army, the Turks and local Arabs, in WWI and he's buried in the British Military Cemetery near Jerusalem. He died liberating the Holy Land from Islamic rule and I don't see why there should ever be another Arab state in that land. The Hejazi Arabs (who also fought with the British, as did the Jews) were granted 99% of the carved-up Ottoman Middle East land already, those countries being Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. If the Arabs of Palestine want to live in peaceful coexistence with Jews in their homeland then it would be fine, and over two million Arabs already do so. But the Arabs of the #disputed Palestinian Territories don't want peace, and their ideology promotes fighting the Jews, driving them out, until they have ALL of the land back under Islamic rule again [Quran 2:191]. I agree that Haviv Rettig Gur is a great educator on this topic... 🇮🇱🙏💙
You forgot to read ayah 190 of surah al baqarah. Do you have a fundamental disagreement with that ayah? Also read ayah 192…please don’t cherry pick from our book as I’m sure you wouldn’t like if we did it to yours…which is easy
@@jeremyh9213: Quran 9:190 says "Fight in the cause of Allah ˹only˺ against those who wage war against you, but do not exceed the limits. Allah does not like transgressors." How do you explain the concept of Islam being in a 'state of war' with all of the non-Islamic world, as in Dar al-Harb vs Dar al-Islam? Islam is full of contradictions and many of the later verses bring different *obligations* for Muslims after Muhammed's political-legal ideology grew in power. It doesn't matter to me what individual Muslims like you think. What matters is how Islam is interpreted and *put into practice* by fundamentalist extremist Muslim groups like Hamas, ISIS, the Islamic regime of Iran, Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, Ansar Allah, etc. While the Qur'an and other Islamic doctrines exist, and while the Qur'an is believed by Muslims to be the eternal and immutable word of the god of Islam, the non-Muslim world will always have problems with Muslims.
@@sandytatham3592 First you need to answer my question and answer if you have a fundamental problem with the ayah 2:190. You didn't answer this but instead brought into the conversation certain groups such as the khawaarij and shia. And spare me the islamaphobe BS...it's old, boring and easily refutable...
@@jeremyh9213: Sorry I didn't comment on the actual surah. It seems quite reasonable to me. But how do Muslims define "those who wage war against you"? And how do Muslims define "transgressors"? I tend to look at how Muslims define these terms and how they put them into practice. Is that so unreasonable? The lives of Infidels and those who are not considered "true Muslims" are at stake in this matter. It's a huge problem!
why the hell did you guys have to finish this convo after 90 minutes? what is the constraint here?. u have such a n amazing guest why not have him for several hours?
By far one of, if not the most, informative & insightful discussions on the topic. Haviv absolutely nailed it in regard to the U.S. media & academia being an uncurious wasteland & elite morality play. Such a sad state of affairs, but clear eyed & articulate thinkers like Haviv & Coleman give me hope. Very useful indeed!
To Coleman's question about why Israel doesn't tell its victim story - think about it interpersonally, you're not going to tell your vulnerable story to a hostile audience who hates and invalidates you. On the one hand, it's a matter of self-preservation (look at all the denials around Oct 7th, the same thing happened after WW2, even in Israel, victims were met with denials and gaslighting, so they stopped telling their vulnerable stories of trauma), but the second is also pride. It's a matter of pride, not to discuss your legitimate victimhood, to somehow justify your existence. On the issue of us knowing our history - we knew it. We learned it. But now, a bunch of malicious people came along and re-wrote all the narratives, and we don't know how to respond because we don't know what's true anymore. We learned one sided narratives. How much of their side is true? We just don't know anymore. Additionally, a lot of learning about our history wasn't a learning; it's an emotionally noxious indoctrination in trauma, a trauma our parents and grandparents didn't want to heal, but wanted to transmit, to make us carry those burdens and misery for them. Many of us rejected and walked away from that pervasive constant misery foisted upon us under the guise of "our history." Now we are struggling to separate what is our history from this traumatic baggage of victimhood identity which makes us sick. (I'm sure lots of other persecuted people understand this psychological distinction. Yes, we want to know our history, but no, we don't want to be recruited into endless grievances and resentments and an identity of victimhood which never ceases.).
Very well said but it's a difficult line to walk, on the one hand not wanting victimhood to define us while on the other hand seeing how quickly Jew hate revives itself. Is remembering the hard parts of our history not a bit of a fire alarm that could save us from harm?
@@davidk2471 I think that is an important question. There is often a fear that if we heal, if we let go of the trauma, we will somehow forget, or forget in such a way that we will lose our discernment for danger. As though healing implies ignorance of some kind. So we hold on in the wrong way, for the wrong reasons. In reality, the reverse is true. Healing brings more wisdom, more discernment, and better more effective approaches; a clarity of vision which trauma clouds. Holding on to trauma doesn't keep us safer, it almost ensures (spiritually) that it will repeat. It will have to be retriggered in us, again and again, until we heal it fully. Ultimately, we cannot control antisemitism in others. And leaping into action to fight against it, when we haven't healed, often means that we are fruitlessly tilting at windmills, (emotionally reactive out of past trauma) and it is ineffective in the external world.
@@angelasophia3705 Maybe, or maybe it's a lot of talk Nobody who has a victimized mentality (whether valid or not) fully heals while maintaining that identity. Maybe my grandchildren won't have it because my kids are mixed and interfaith and not totally steeped in the historical oppression of the Jews (though they are facing some of that now). Victimization, even in histories that are not a long, wide, or deep as the Jewish one, is not something that is easily shed from an identity; it's quite the opposite since it FORMS the identity and often sits at or near its centre. (I'm thinking of Quebec actually but I'm sure there are lots of examples; maybe Ireland too.) So maybe the healing is about being mindful so the "shield" aspect of that negative history doesn't become a sword with which to attack others. What does this "healing" mean to you?
@@davidk2471 I'm sharing wisdom with you. It is not a lot of talk, but actual reality. You are conflating two different things. Being victimized by something or someone is real and valid. Healing means processing that pain and trauma fully. A victimhood identity is something else. It is an unwillingness to heal, and instead a manipulation of the trauma, the status as victim, for the sake of power. The former is healthy and life affirming. The latter is noxious and life denying. Jews have lost a lot of their authentic identity, their authentic dignity, because they stopped healing, and turned victimhood into the identity. There is a beautiful authentic Jewish identity which includes the suffering and the glorious transcendence of suffering, the real wisdom and virtue that comes from the healing of suffering. It doesn't drown in the noxious narcissistic elements of victimhood.
I love you guys so much. I think what you do is so important this day and age. Thank you for having funny yet highly enlightening and enlightening. Much respect and love, Joey Walker-
wow what a fresh take on this conflict, i'm hearing most of these informations for the first time (i'm a brazilian catholic trying to wrap my head around this conflict since october 7th happened and i watched dozens of hours of videos and talked to multiple israelis from all political ideologies, from far right to pro-palestine. most sources online and people now end up providing the same information). This is the most nuanced video i've seen about it and i completely understood his point of view. Great job Mr Haviv!
as an israeli jew i can confirm this is the best discussion of the topic i encountered so far makes me feel how all "official" spokespersons and representees of Israel are doing such a shitty job.
The reason why America is not a good negotiator in this situation is because they are not a neutral actor. They are clearly on Israel's side so how do you expect the other side to take them serioudsly?
Pure brilliance....the entire time I kept thinking Haviv will go down in History as one of the most important people for Jews and lo and behold, you guys thought the same. Thank you so much for this
Because he repeats all the Israeli talking points. I waited for some real concessions about the dispossession, occupation and erasure of Palestinians. He gave none. He argues from an Israel-centric position and does not see with any clarity the suffering inflicted in the creation of Israel I suspect you do not either..
57:56 Israeli Jew here - I whole heartedly disagree with Haviv and Coleman here. Israel is NOT the creation of pogroms and the holocaust, and IS the creation of Zionism. It is true that persecutions drove Jews out of where they were and into Israel, but without Zionism preparing the ground, Israel would not have been an option. This means both the infrastructure of a proto-state, as well as ideological massaging of the Jews around the world for the idea of the Jewish state- which wasn’t there in over a hundred cases of Jews expelled or driven out of countries they lived in for the past 2000 years. Furthermore Zionism predates the secular Zionist movement of the late 1800s. Throughout those 2000 years Jews dreamt of going back to Israel, and there was always a trickle of Jews migrating back. Israel happened when the secularizing assimilating Jews of Europe lost hope of ever being accepted in the west and turned to Zionism.
"lost hope of ever being accepted in the west" and left, therefore, refugees. And the numbers of those early refugees was dwarfed by the number in the 1920s and 1930s, jews who really needed to get out of Dodge. Does having the homeland of your tradition being the goal of the nationalism mean they weren't refugees needing a place to go? Being a zionist and a refugee don't seem to be mutually exclusive in my mind.
The rise of European nationalism is what drove Zionism. Without that, Jews would be nothing more than a diverse, scattered religious group. European nationalism is what gave Jews the belief that they deserved a state of their own. The neo-fascism of Israel is a leftover from its turn of the century European roots.
@@house684 at that time it wasn't only european nationalism, there was arab nationalism, aafrikans nationalism, and I am sure others. In any event, they were clearly refugees and by the time large numbers showed up is was because the US was closed. They clearly would have wanted to go there not Israel if there wss no quota as 95%+ of them went to the US before the quota system. Hard to say, therefore, that they went to Israel for zionism or nationalism in general. They had no where else to go.
Oh wow! What a fantastic conversation. Haviv is so so amazing, and so CALM! 3 fantastically respectful conversationalists. You give me HOPE that tomorrow can be better. Keep talking guys, I am listening. 😊
this is Haviv's best interview ever and he needs to be an internationally recognized name and voice. Haviv, slow down just a little bit. You are so smart and you speak so fast. If you want to better understand Israel and Zionism and Ashkenazim, read the Yizkor books from the various communities in Europe that were totally wiped out in the Holocaust. Many of the authors are people who fled in the 1920s and 1930s to Eretz Yisrael following the pogroms of the Russian Civil war that slaughtered 200,000 Jews. They begged their family and friends to join them in Eretz Yisrael. All who did not perished.
You forgot an important comma! "All who did not, perished!" You brought up very good points. I hope people here WILL look at the Yizkor books of SO many communities. I have spent hundreds of hours reading about destroyed worlds and communities.
Kudos to Haviv Rettig Gur for another lucid explanation of the conflict, and to Coleman Hughes for brilliant, really brilliant questions. A critical comment about Haviv's description of Naqba - it is simply misleading that he did not mention why Naqba happened in the first place. A civil war broke out between the Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Arabs after the UN decision on 29 November 1947 to partition Palestine. Both the Arabs and Jews were trying to drive each other from their homes, mostly in the Jewish part. No massive exodus of Arabs, 333 Jews and 345 Arabs were killed by January 1948. It is only when the State of Israel was declared on May 14, 1948, and five Arab armies invaded to annihilate the Jews, and the Jews fought back, that the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs fled. Some were driven away by the Jews, most fled to clear the way for the invading Arab armies. It's a familiar, by now, story line - start a war, lose the war, don't admit defeat, don't negotiate a peace agreement, and declare themselves victims
This very video states that the hundreds of thousands that fled in the Naqba did so mainly because spokespersons for the invading Arab armies made clear they would be "viewed as renegades" if they took Israeli protection and remained. That tells you the Arab armies said basically "leave or else!" (they would be viewed as pretty much traitors, and so, the invading Arabs caused the naqba with a threat.
@@roundedges2 . Thanks. And at that time no one told these people (mostly Bedouin or those living in very small villages as I understand) they may not be able to return as that wasn't the immediate goal of the Arab armies. Even today the other Arab countries don't care about the Palestinians. If they did they would have taken them in. Have you read about how Kuwait expelled approx 300K Palestinians after the Gulf War? Only about 50K Palestinians who were married to Kuwaitis were allowed to stay. This is all thanks to Yasser Arafat (Sunni) siding with Iraq when Sadaam Hussein (Shiite) invaded Kuwait.
omg seriously , btween 1995 and 2000 as in the breakthrou of the second intifada , the amount of settelments almost doubled , the pEaCe pRoCeSs was being streched beyond sanity , there were 0 palestinian autonomy in it , there was no recognition of a palestinian state , im still baffeled at the israelis disingenuity , even the supposedly brightest among them
I hope you are also baffled but the absolute poor leadership of the Palestinian national movement from Al-Husseini to Arafat and currently Abbas. In fact, a lot of the current Palestinian plight can be attributed to poor leadership from these people.
@@kedrick93 stop deflectin , he s saying in the video that israelis still dont kn why the second intifada happened , its literally so ignorant , entitled and mind boggeling when palestinians live a few miles away from them under their rule , that they somehow dOnT UnDeRsTaNd why . unless they expect the palestinians to just be happy with the status quo and whatever leftovers theyre given with 0 autonomy . typical israelis
@@kedrick93 and oh trust me it wouldve been no different even if was MLK the leadership of the palestinians strive to self determination on their own land , it just can not happem as long as World leaders are bought by Zionists . And abbas is no leader LOL abbas is a nobody , he s the direct exemple of what it is like to make deal with israel and become its dog , he has zero autonomy , the idf can storm ramallah any second of the day and hes not allowed to interfere when settlers destroy the lives of his own people , so no , hes no leadership , regardless of any mistakes Al husseini or aarafat did , dont put them with that piece of garbage , if aarafat went over with camp david , thats what he would have probably become , an image of a leader while a foreigne army is dictating his life and that of his people , a lap dog , and he never was one , may he rest in peace .
@@kedrick93 dont deflect , hes stating that israelis still to this day dont kn why the second intifada happened , which is crazyyy given that the palestinians sorta live a couple of miles way from them while governed by the same government , a car ride into the west bank and listening to palestinians and reading through the peace negotiantions your own country is dictating would tell you everything , unless you somehow expect of palestinians to be these poor subjegated people that should be thankful to you for gracing them with leftovers while still treating them like dogs , and the so bizarre fake sympathy displaced for the palestianians while depicting them as the people who are being used by their own and the israelis are always in the quest of saving them by killing them LOL
@@kedrick93 Abbas is no leader lmao , hes the direct exemple of whats like to make a deal with israel and what became of the west bank because of it , thats what aarafat wouldve become , an image of a leader while a foreign army is brutilizing his people , a lap dog , and he never was one .
They're illegal under Article 49(6) of the Fourth Geneva Convention, as recognised by the UN Security Council and the International Court of Justice. Even the Israeli government's own advisors warned back in 1968 that they would violate international law.
It’s great to hear someone who understands the alliances. Speaking to people on the street it’s difficult to explain this. It’s never as simple as Muslim vs Jew or right vs left.
There is no actual proof that Raam and Likud party were ever in real negotiation to form a coalition, Mansur Abas said he spoke with Netanyahu, but Netanyahu rejected the idea and Abas lied since he showed nothing to prove his claim. Abas is a part of the Muslim brotherhood that's responsible for the suffering of many people in Arab countries, He is full of sweet talk when he speaks in Hebrew, but if you listen to what he say in Arabic you'll get a totally different perspective.
Love the idea of the week by week chronicles made into a book and his name entering historical books as a great intellectual, with fair, nuanced and human commentaries. Thanks Haviv!!! And thanks gentleman for holding this conversation. ❤
I'm making this comment only 15 minutes in, so I may edit if something changes further into the podcast... But I'm at the point where they are questioning why the Americans seem to be so terrible at negotiating with any actors in the Middle East. I just want to add one point to that conversation- maybe the main point for the Americans is more domestic politics than a desire to be effective in negotiations. It is an election year in the US and the pro-Palestine mov't has never been bigger and louder. The administration is probably just more interested in appeasing its base by seeming tough on Israel and letting Israel take the blame for the lack of ceasefires.
man, thank you so much for having these conversations. i have been obsessed with learning and studying this conflict ever since October 7, and as someone who is more sympathetic to the Palestinian side, i must say that some of the best and most compassionate cases for Israel i have ever heard have been on your show. i’ve listened to probably a hundred debates on the issue now, read 5 books on it, and also listened to Martyrmade episodes 1-7 on the conflict, which are incredible. you should have Darryl Cooper on!
What a beautiful podcast. "Uncuriosity" is an essential concept which also explains why the "elite" college students weren't curious about vax / mask mandates and were willing to be subjected to them in perpetuity without any pushback whatsoever. What people outside Israel don't know is how many people look, talk and think like Haviv and that his view are in fact mainstream in Israel.
The situation is complexed. It is like South Africa and apartheid. America saw this as a black / white issue, yet it is far more complexed with multiple tribes etc. To really understand, you need to be on the ground.
I never heard of this guy. He sounds like an IDF spokesman. He provides no sources. He’s not factual. Better off, listening to Max Blumenthal or Gideon Levy.
"War is all Hell!" William Tecumseh Sherman. The deaths of Gazan noncombatants and IDF soldiers is regrettable as are civilian and military casualties in all wars. Despite the extraordinary and uniquely unprecedented efforts of the IDF to spare the lives and limbs of noncombatant Gazans, it is the unavoidable nature of warfare that there will be collateral damage on both sides, no matter how few. Nevertheless, we must never lose sight of the fact that the entire responsibility for this war lies with Hamas and other Islamist terror groups throughout the region. If ever there were just wars, this and the next one against Hezbollah, are them! S// Graduate, United States Naval War College
There is no different Islam... difference is only how strictly they follow it...there is nothing peaceful in Islam and Qur'an...you Jews should know it better then anyone
Columbia in particular was the university of Edward Said and his postmodern Orientalism followed up by the most cherry picked history in the world by Rashid Khalid and his “100 year war on Palestine”. Israel is deeply in need of popular academic authors to challenge the post modern fairy tales by these Palestinian professors.
The point made at ~51:00 is a really good point. I mean, a REALLY good point. I'm completely sympathetic of the Israeli perspective on this conflict, and even then i don't think I've considered this point. Wow. ❤
I love listening to Haviv, and I’m glad he touched on the religious aspect of this war, but alas( I suspect he is an atheist), the depth of understanding regarding the spiritual and religious concepts are lacking. Belief is not something one can be argued into, and that sums up the almost unsurmountable divide and chaos we are experiencing.
On this planet, any people / nation which is subject to settler colonialism, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, war crimes tends to respond in the same way: Resistance.
There is no democracy in the west bank. This is very far from the reality that they are forced to live this way and then dare to compare and ctitisize their way. This is also works the same in Gaza where they are forced to live a different way of life.
@@ericantes9203 I do not think you know what's you're talking about. Having an agency and not having barriers does not mean you are giving the life. Israel ahould give them the life they deserve.
@@ericantes9203 This has nothing to do with them, their society or culture. All what is happening is a reaction to what is happening to them. They should never pay the price of of the others.
@@Ouzrighara I'm sorry but you are incorrect. 2 million Arab Muslims are citizens of Israel for this reason. Not everyone wants to live under strict Islamic shariah law. I'm not judging them , but pretending they can coexist is ludacris. Many culture norms are polar opposites of each other. In reality both countries are willing parties to this continuing holy war.
I grew up here in Israel during the 2nd Intifada and I know my history very, very well. Until Haviv said I never noticed ; but I truly DO NOT have an idea what the second Intifada was about.
@LAWoman83 your argument is similar to the white settlers in the US. The Appaches, cherokee, Sioux, Comanchee fought the white settlers and lost. So they lost their land. Great argument.
@@LAWoman83conquering land is against international law, so is the situation in the Westbank, East Jerusalem and also the genocide in Gaza, so long Israelis don’t understand that, the conflict won’t be solved. So long the western world is maintaining this double standards (fighting Russia, supporting Israel) the conflict will remain as is
@@everythingandmore5537 The native Americans returning to their land does not result in a demographic problem which inevitably destroys the United States. There are no native Americans that want to bomb and burn the US to the ground.
I read the comments that viewers make. It's so refreshing to hear how so many intelligent, open-minded people found incredible value in listening to Haviv. Clarity at last!
He is a brilliant guy. However doing lots of cherry picking to make Israeli policies looking better. Talking about an electoral promise of retreating from western bank settlements and ignoring the fact of doubling the number of illegal settlements is just absurd.
القرآن لا يسمح بالانتحار. إنه يحرم صراحةً أخذ حياة المرء. الآية ذات الصلة هي: سورة النساء (4:29): "وَلَا تَقْتُلُوا أَنْفُسَكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ بِكُمْ رَحِيمًا". لذا بناءً على القرآن، فإن استخدام الأطفال الصغار كدروع بشرية وإرسالهم إلى الموت يعد خطيئة وفقًا للقرآن. ولكن بما أن الأغبياء المفيدين والأشخاص غير المتعلمين الذين يزعمون أنهم مسلمون لا يدركون أن قتل أطفالك ليس استشهادًا، بل هو رحلة ذهاب فقط لإرسال أطفالك ونفسك إلى الجحيم. لا عجب أن العالم الإسلامي المتحضر لا يريد أن يكون له أي علاقة بعبادة الموت في غزة وأن الآخرين من الغباء أن يعرفوا أنهم يقتلون أنفسهم وأطفالهم إلى الأبد. القرآن 101.
American Jews are no different from other Americans. Majority of Americans are not even aware of their lack of curiosity, such lack having been referenced earlier in this talk. History in general makes A LOT of Americans uncomfortable. I do not understand why, even though I’m as American as they come. It so clearly behooves one and one’s nation to have knowledge and participate in discussions and attempt to maintain peace. The only thing Americans are curious about is why a few of us are curious, and this they ask with disdain (not real curiosity). It’s embarrassing and ultimately horrifying. My grandparents would be ashamed
One of the rare lucid, erudite, rational, and honest conversations on the subject. Thank you for arranging this.
Why the fuck does a obscure comedy podcast have more professional conversations about this kind of stuff than pretty much all mainstream media
But they are funnier than we are.
@@comedycellarclipsTHATS funny
Because the professional media are shills and puppets and these guys here are actually 'indoctrinated'. The difference is that these guys believe what they say. LOL. These people think they are doing god's work even though they are secular Zionists, and the other guys think they are deceiving and stealing conspicuously even though everybody knows how the grift works.
That’s what I thank Noam for, and his even handedness and nuance and willingness to ask the questions that I would want answered.
@@comedycellarclips Good one!
Haviv is a fantastic treasure to humanity. Everytime I listen to his view of the world, I learn some new, and good. Thank you for this conversation guys. ❤❤
Haviv, you should really be the minister of international PR for Israel. Your calm and elequent explanations will caputure the minds of those who listen to non stop disinfomation.
He can't because no sane and honest person can be a spokesman for this government
@@jennybravo7019: the government and the people are two separate things. The Israeli people are amazing.
one thing he doesnt mention which is the who reason the whole world hates israel right now is the innocents and all the kids being killed the way palestinians are so dehumanised as if there not living creatures too is actually amazing
@@debguth they seem like prejudice, elicits who has it in their minds that a God who they don’t believe in gave them the land. Clearly the Rev. 2:9 & 3:9 versions.
@dothework73
He favours settlements in the west bank and say no Palestinians refugees can return. That makes him a Jewish supremacist.
Haviv's videos are pretty much the only ones I watch twice, and I rewind a bit too. Then usually I go and cross-check some stuff, and they check out.
And I come out feeling much more informed.
Why are the most lucid, clear, and informative videos about the gaza war coming out of the comedy cellar?
Because your news are baught and paid for by qatar.
because the people who work at the Cellar are directly affected by the conflict and not just bandwagonning like the D to B-list celebs who use the war to get attention
Haviv nailed it when he said U.S. media & academia has become a barren wasteland… an elitist morality theater, devoid of curiosity & critical thinking. SAD!
Haviv, as an Israeli, you make me extremely proud and optimistic. You’re so vital in these terrible times. Kol Hakavod!
u guys have enough people to be proud of, but this guy does really stand out.
I’m in shock how good this conversation was. Brilliant minds!
Disgusting racist people having conversation about people while denying that Israel is no more than a settler colonial project and an extend to American imperialism in the middle east which stands on subjugating the indigenous to non ending military occupation and apartheid system!
@@saja410: The Jewish people are #indigenous to the Holy Land. The Arabs are the invaders. Two million Arab Israeli citizens have *equal rights* with Jews. Their families accepted life in the Jewish state of Israel in 1948.
This man is by far the most intelligent and articulate person I have ever heard speak about Israel. This is the most interesting video I have ever watched. Thank you for the education! ❤Am Israel Chai
Haviv really needs to write a book about zionism and fill that gap he's talking about. He's a really smart guy he could do it.
The last thing we need is Zionist ideologues writing books about anything.
He's written a number of them.
@@deborahfreedman333and great videos are available as well.
@@khadimndiaye7730 did you take no notice of the fact a Jewish Israeli has gone to pains to ensure he deeply understands the history, philosophy, and ideology of Islam. How many Palestinians have you seen do that? Or even other Jews do that? He’s also been vocally critical of Netanyahu’s coalition for years now. He was humanising and portraying Palestinians as 3D, complex human beings better than all the pro Palestine western advocates I’ve seen. Why would he do that if he doesn’t believe in a peaceful future for his region?
@@MegChurley Look, Islam is not the problem. Stealing land, ethnically cleansing it is. Also it’s a problem to try building this ethno state. So no, it doesn’t matter to me that an Israeli Jew learns Islam, what difference does it make? None at all. It’s ridiculous that you need somebody that study Islam to make you understand that Moslem ppl are human, just ridiculous
The best and most differentiated podcast about the middle east conflict. Greetings from Germany ❤🙌
Wow Haviv and Coleman in one conversation.....just wow
Love Coleman
I love listening to this man. He seems like we are seeing him get even better in real time. My guess is that the two lectures to which Coleman refers are the Shalem college lectures. I highly recommend them. And this is another one to add to the list to share. Thank you!
Haviv is amazing . I could listen to him an all day .
Wow, this is so clear. Explains perfectly Israel POV, and more.
Worth every minute of your time.
Israel's point of view is Jewish supremacy from the river to the sea, it's the ethnic cleansing and the genocide of the Palestinian people.
@@pennylaprebendere7804: Two million Arabs are Israeli citizens today. They have equal rights and freedom of worship. Arab Muslim Israelis sit in the Knesset and on the Supreme Court, and they also serve in the military. It's the *hostile* Arabs who refuse to accept Israel as a sovereign Jewish state that are the problem.
One of the best interviews on the topic to date.
What a pleasure to listen to all three of these folks. Huge respect for Coleman. His excellent article "The High Price..." will age incredibly well.
Haviv single handedly has opened my mind and knowledge about Arab israeli conflict. This man is a tremendous asset for those who desire to know the truth about the root cause of most of the past 80 years of conflicts in the Middle East. I am a Muslim and Haviv has been able to open my mind and wash all the junk that my Muslim upbringing had shoved into my head about Israel and jews.
Wonderful! Real brotherhood is only in living the truth.
That's great. I'm Canadian and have spent much of my life absorbed in the Middle East and married an Egyptian Sunni and have lived in Egypt. Absolutely everyone should be listening to Haviv. There is far too much shallow and emotional thinking about Israel/Palestine and the area that takes place most everywhere.
You’re not Muslim.
Lol fake
@@ronstasUA-cam Please explain.
Haviv is great! He was coherent, logical and rational unlike other so called “ spokespeople” from the Israeli Government.
Gur is a leftist, thus less trustworthy than the government spokespeople.
this was AMAZING! thank you. It contained seeds of hope. Haviv why hasn't Piers Morgan called you?! Instead we get all these loonies speaking on our behalf
I totally agree. Unfortunately Piers often purposely has guests on who he knows will result in screaming at each other and nothing is achieved.
~46:00 mark - Coleman hits the nail right on the head calling out the racial binary BS.
With all due respect, though, Haviv referring to Israelis of Ashkenazi descent as "white" doesn't exactly help matters. The Nazis never saw them as "Aryan" (SS equivalent of white European purity), and most Ashkenazim have roots in the Middle East. Diaspora sojourn in Europe doesn't magically make a people pure European.
Good points! They are "white" to the morons who subscribe to woke critical race theory but anyone who knows history knows they were not considered white by their haters.
Wow! "We don't justify ourselves". This gave me the chills!
I agree. He made so many thought-changing comments. Another one was how he divides the Middle East governments into 4 categories and how these categories aren't what most of us would have thought.
Thank you for this excellent and valuable program
Adding another voice of encouragement to please write a book! The American historian Heather Cox Richardson wrote (and still writes) daily letters linking history and current events, since 2016, and has woven them into a book that will no doubt be an authoritative and enduring chronicle of our time. Haviv is the person who is best positioned to do something similar for Israel. All admiration and profound thanks for all your UA-cam lectures, interviews, and podcasts, from your devoted fan in Canada.
Good to see another Canadian does a deeper dive into this region of the world that 99% of other people. Thx for mentioning Richardson as I hadn't heard of her.
My God that's a lot of brainpower in one place. More than anyone else who comes to mind, when Haviv talks I completely lose track of time. The guy's intelligence, wisdom and perspective are absolutely mesmerizing.
Do you know Mouin Rabbani?
@@shannonm.townsend1232 Most unfortunately.
@@shannonm.townsend1232 A clownshoe.
@@shannonm.townsend1232
I'm reading his stuff, he's not too interested in peaceful coexistence with Israel is he? I guess that's a bit of a taboo, even if he were.
@@davidk2471 can you explain more what you mean?
What a wealth of historical knowledge Haviv possess. Curious if Coleman has this same depth of knowledge? What do we learn here in US about world history? I consider myself well educated yet knew very little of what Haviv knows. It’s easy to sit on the other side of the world and assume we know what’s best for the Middle East. Haviv lives in the midst of all these different cultures and religions.
This was outstanding, thank you. I'm now off to search some more Gur vids.
Thank you
One of the most illuminating, insightful, and profound interviews I have ever heard. Thank you for this.
This was tremendous!!!
Haviv comes across as such a down to earth, humble, sincere guy. 💙💚 - Big shout out from Ireland ... don't worry there are some of us who can see the truth behind this and every attack the Palestinian Arabs perpetrate and perpetuate (with various nefarious neighbours).
Agreed. Haviv is the wisest voice and the best spokesperson for Israel and the Jewish people right now.
Nah, Gadi Taub is better.
And his tone is so calmly confident and grounded.
Haviv.. amazing intellect
Haviv is a great guy .
„Even if there would be no settlements …“ this is something the Israelis like to point out so often. „The settlements don’t matter to the current conflict so we just continue the illegal settlements, even increase them, because the Palestinians don’t care about that.“ So long this denial of what the Palestinians want maintains, namely: a life in dignity on their own land, justice; they won’t be peace in the Middle East.
Indeed. The whole thing is just an abhorrent land grab.
"So long they denial what the Palestinians want, namely a life in dignity on their own land, justice, they won’t be peace in the Middle East." But which is their own land? Can you please spell it out? Jenin or Jaffa? Hebron or Haifa? From the River to the Sea or the West Bank and Gaza? What is there to negotiate? Israel's existence or the occupation? And the occupation of what? Spell it out.
@@JastorKeane-ln2tz Land grab where? Tel Aviv too?
@@condovo as if there were not SEVERAL UN resolutions of how the partition looks like: at least! the whole of the Westbank, East-Jerusalem and Gaza. BUT Israel is sticking to none of them. No more illegal occupation, nowhere. This is a starting point. But in the Westbank, which Israel is illegally occupying, Israel recently legalized settlements, which ALL countries (also the biggest Israel supporters US, Germany, England, and so on) criticize. Spain thought it through and don't see a big difference to what Israel is doing to what Russia is doing. To be honest, I'm lacking the imagination to challenge this idea: Israel is doing the same as Russia, but they do it for decades now.
@@khadimndiaye7730Israel won Gaza and the West Bank in a defensive war! This is similar to the war of 1812 when borders between Canada and the USA were altered. Israel however, returned Gaza and the West Bank which was their only buffer to missiles and bombs consistently being lobbed into Israel. This bombing is NOT ok!
This is very good , he can explain the situation in Israel very brightly ,he
learns you a lot
Absolutely excellent and informative interview. You asked good questions and also let him speak. Thank you!
Every Jew in America should listen to this podcast because Haviv has told us our story as Jews. He has provided at least this American Jew with answers I didn't even know the questions to.
The singular best podcast on this subject ever. Seriously. I have watched and listened to every podcast, lectures, interviews with Haviv since I found him on Dan Senors podcast "Call Me Back"
Dan and Haviv already know the story, so they don't answer the simple question of "Our Story," They discuss the future, and that's great. But
Dave and I are typical of most American Jews, we didn't know how to answer "Go Back to the Poland" jeers. "What you mean I should have let my father in law be gassed at Auschwitz like his parents and sister?" To us, it's such an unserious question and it's posed by radicals, so why bother.
But we needed to know for OURSELVES the answer. We don't have to feel guilty. Israelis know they don't need to feel guilty. We didn't know we needed to not feel guilty too.
Please come back on Dave's show and further discuss the settlements.
I felt we were entering a whole new area of history and knowledge, I cried out, "No, keep going. I need to know more" and I know more than the average Jew about the history of the state of Israel, and the Palestinians than the average person. We never stop learning. The day we stop learning is the day we die. So please come back soon.
What a thoughtful comment. I'm NZ-Australian and a strong supporter of Israel and the right for Jewish self-determination in their ancestral homeland. My New Zealand grandfather fought against the Ottoman Army, the Turks and local Arabs, in WWI and he's buried in the British Military Cemetery near Jerusalem. He died liberating the Holy Land from Islamic rule and I don't see why there should ever be another Arab state in that land. The Hejazi Arabs (who also fought with the British, as did the Jews) were granted 99% of the carved-up Ottoman Middle East land already, those countries being Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. If the Arabs of Palestine want to live in peaceful coexistence with Jews in their homeland then it would be fine, and over two million Arabs already do so. But the Arabs of the #disputed Palestinian Territories don't want peace, and their ideology promotes fighting the Jews, driving them out, until they have ALL of the land back under Islamic rule again [Quran 2:191]. I agree that Haviv Rettig Gur is a great educator on this topic... 🇮🇱🙏💙
You forgot to read ayah 190 of surah al baqarah. Do you have a fundamental disagreement with that ayah? Also read ayah 192…please don’t cherry pick from our book as I’m sure you wouldn’t like if we did it to yours…which is easy
@@jeremyh9213: Quran 9:190 says "Fight in the cause of Allah ˹only˺ against those who wage war against you, but do not exceed the limits. Allah does not like transgressors." How do you explain the concept of Islam being in a 'state of war' with all of the non-Islamic world, as in Dar al-Harb vs Dar al-Islam? Islam is full of contradictions and many of the later verses bring different *obligations* for Muslims after Muhammed's political-legal ideology grew in power. It doesn't matter to me what individual Muslims like you think. What matters is how Islam is interpreted and *put into practice* by fundamentalist extremist Muslim groups like Hamas, ISIS, the Islamic regime of Iran, Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, Ansar Allah, etc. While the Qur'an and other Islamic doctrines exist, and while the Qur'an is believed by Muslims to be the eternal and immutable word of the god of Islam, the non-Muslim world will always have problems with Muslims.
@@sandytatham3592 First you need to answer my question and answer if you have a fundamental problem with the ayah 2:190. You didn't answer this but instead brought into the conversation certain groups such as the khawaarij and shia. And spare me the islamaphobe BS...it's old, boring and easily refutable...
@@jeremyh9213: Sorry I didn't comment on the actual surah. It seems quite reasonable to me. But how do Muslims define "those who wage war against you"? And how do Muslims define "transgressors"? I tend to look at how Muslims define these terms and how they put them into practice. Is that so unreasonable? The lives of Infidels and those who are not considered "true Muslims" are at stake in this matter. It's a huge problem!
hi if you can please bring einat wilf on the podcast she's also awesome
why the hell did you guys have to finish this convo after 90 minutes? what is the constraint here?. u have such a n amazing guest why not have him for several hours?
Second that emotion. Didn’t want it to end.
By far one of, if not the most, informative & insightful discussions on the topic. Haviv absolutely nailed it in regard to the U.S. media & academia being an uncurious wasteland & elite morality play. Such a sad state of affairs, but clear eyed & articulate thinkers like Haviv & Coleman give me hope. Very useful indeed!
To Coleman's question about why Israel doesn't tell its victim story - think about it interpersonally, you're not going to tell your vulnerable story to a hostile audience who hates and invalidates you. On the one hand, it's a matter of self-preservation (look at all the denials around Oct 7th, the same thing happened after WW2, even in Israel, victims were met with denials and gaslighting, so they stopped telling their vulnerable stories of trauma), but the second is also pride. It's a matter of pride, not to discuss your legitimate victimhood, to somehow justify your existence.
On the issue of us knowing our history - we knew it. We learned it. But now, a bunch of malicious people came along and re-wrote all the narratives, and we don't know how to respond because we don't know what's true anymore. We learned one sided narratives. How much of their side is true? We just don't know anymore.
Additionally, a lot of learning about our history wasn't a learning; it's an emotionally noxious indoctrination in trauma, a trauma our parents and grandparents didn't want to heal, but wanted to transmit, to make us carry those burdens and misery for them. Many of us rejected and walked away from that pervasive constant misery foisted upon us under the guise of "our history." Now we are struggling to separate what is our history from this traumatic baggage of victimhood identity which makes us sick. (I'm sure lots of other persecuted people understand this psychological distinction. Yes, we want to know our history, but no, we don't want to be recruited into endless grievances and resentments and an identity of victimhood which never ceases.).
Wow. You need to speak up more if you can possibly muster it. Thanks for sharing ✌
Very well said but it's a difficult line to walk, on the one hand not wanting victimhood to define us while on the other hand seeing how quickly Jew hate revives itself. Is remembering the hard parts of our history not a bit of a fire alarm that could save us from harm?
@@davidk2471 I think that is an important question. There is often a fear that if we heal, if we let go of the trauma, we will somehow forget, or forget in such a way that we will lose our discernment for danger. As though healing implies ignorance of some kind. So we hold on in the wrong way, for the wrong reasons. In reality, the reverse is true. Healing brings more wisdom, more discernment, and better more effective approaches; a clarity of vision which trauma clouds. Holding on to trauma doesn't keep us safer, it almost ensures (spiritually) that it will repeat. It will have to be retriggered in us, again and again, until we heal it fully. Ultimately, we cannot control antisemitism in others. And leaping into action to fight against it, when we haven't healed, often means that we are fruitlessly tilting at windmills, (emotionally reactive out of past trauma) and it is ineffective in the external world.
@@angelasophia3705
Maybe, or maybe it's a lot of talk
Nobody who has a victimized mentality (whether valid or not) fully heals while maintaining that identity. Maybe my grandchildren won't have it because my kids are mixed and interfaith and not totally steeped in the historical oppression of the Jews (though they are facing some of that now).
Victimization, even in histories that are not a long, wide, or deep as the Jewish one, is not something that is easily shed from an identity; it's quite the opposite since it FORMS the identity and often sits at or near its centre. (I'm thinking of Quebec actually but I'm sure there are lots of examples; maybe Ireland too.)
So maybe the healing is about being mindful so the "shield" aspect of that negative history doesn't become a sword with which to attack others.
What does this "healing" mean to you?
@@davidk2471 I'm sharing wisdom with you. It is not a lot of talk, but actual reality. You are conflating two different things. Being victimized by something or someone is real and valid. Healing means processing that pain and trauma fully. A victimhood identity is something else. It is an unwillingness to heal, and instead a manipulation of the trauma, the status as victim, for the sake of power. The former is healthy and life affirming. The latter is noxious and life denying. Jews have lost a lot of their authentic identity, their authentic dignity, because they stopped healing, and turned victimhood into the identity. There is a beautiful authentic Jewish identity which includes the suffering and the glorious transcendence of suffering, the real wisdom and virtue that comes from the healing of suffering. It doesn't drown in the noxious narcissistic elements of victimhood.
I love you guys so much. I think what you do is so important this day and age. Thank you for having funny yet highly enlightening and enlightening. Much respect and love, Joey Walker-
There must be victory. The Palestinians have proven that they will never compromise.
And Israel will never lie down with arms raised and let the Palestinians distroy it. So it will just continue like this.
Yeah, I'm back for more. That last podcast with Haviv and Coleman was incredible. So much information I saved it to watch again
wow what a fresh take on this conflict, i'm hearing most of these informations for the first time (i'm a brazilian catholic trying to wrap my head around this conflict since october 7th happened and i watched dozens of hours of videos and talked to multiple israelis from all political ideologies, from far right to pro-palestine. most sources online and people now end up providing the same information). This is the most nuanced video i've seen about it and i completely understood his point of view. Great job Mr Haviv!
as an israeli jew i can confirm this is the best discussion of the topic i encountered so far
makes me feel how all "official" spokespersons and representees of Israel are doing such a shitty job.
The reason why America is not a good negotiator in this situation is because they are not a neutral actor. They are clearly on Israel's side so how do you expect the other side to take them serioudsly?
OMG! This is one of the clearest explanations of the formation of Israel I have ever heard! The Jews still had nowhere to go after WWII!
So the Palestinians pay the price for Nazi crimes…lovely…
Haviv will go down in history as a leading and sane voice of truth and light in these dark times !
No he won't. In a small subsection of zionists.
Pure brilliance....the entire time I kept thinking Haviv will go down in History as one of the most important people for Jews and lo and behold, you guys thought the same. Thank you so much for this
Because he repeats all the Israeli talking points.
I waited for some real concessions about the dispossession, occupation and erasure of Palestinians.
He gave none.
He argues from an Israel-centric position and does not see with any clarity the suffering inflicted in the creation of Israel
I suspect you do not either..
57:56 Israeli Jew here - I whole heartedly disagree with Haviv and Coleman here. Israel is NOT the creation of pogroms and the holocaust, and IS the creation of Zionism.
It is true that persecutions drove Jews out of where they were and into Israel, but without Zionism preparing the ground, Israel would not have been an option. This means both the infrastructure of a proto-state, as well as ideological massaging of the Jews around the world for the idea of the Jewish state- which wasn’t there in over a hundred cases of Jews expelled or driven out of countries they lived in for the past 2000 years.
Furthermore Zionism predates the secular Zionist movement of the late 1800s. Throughout those 2000 years Jews dreamt of going back to Israel, and there was always a trickle of Jews migrating back. Israel happened when the secularizing assimilating Jews of Europe lost hope of ever being accepted in the west and turned to Zionism.
"lost hope of ever being accepted in the west" and left, therefore, refugees. And the numbers of those early refugees was dwarfed by the number in the 1920s and 1930s, jews who really needed to get out of Dodge. Does having the homeland of your tradition being the goal of the nationalism mean they weren't refugees needing a place to go? Being a zionist and a refugee don't seem to be mutually exclusive in my mind.
The rise of European nationalism is what drove Zionism. Without that, Jews would be nothing more than a diverse, scattered religious group. European nationalism is what gave Jews the belief that they deserved a state of their own. The neo-fascism of Israel is a leftover from its turn of the century European roots.
@@house684 at that time it wasn't only european nationalism, there was arab nationalism, aafrikans nationalism, and I am sure others. In any event, they were clearly refugees and by the time large numbers showed up is was because the US was closed. They clearly would have wanted to go there not Israel if there wss no quota as 95%+ of them went to the US before the quota system. Hard to say, therefore, that they went to Israel for zionism or nationalism in general. They had no where else to go.
@@house684all those people calling Israel facistic have 0 understanding of what Israeli politics and Israeli society is like.
Im afraid that would be you.@@talsapps
Oh wow! What a fantastic conversation. Haviv is so so amazing, and so CALM! 3 fantastically respectful conversationalists. You give me HOPE that tomorrow can be better. Keep talking guys, I am listening. 😊
This is the most important talk I've ever heard on YT
Sad to see Comedy Cellar still Propagandists
It's just one big Zionist circle-jerk. Cringeworthy
Three gems sitting in front of mics. Thank you for sharing!
this is Haviv's best interview ever and he needs to be an internationally recognized name and voice.
Haviv, slow down just a little bit. You are so smart and you speak so fast.
If you want to better understand Israel and Zionism and Ashkenazim, read the Yizkor books from the various communities in Europe that were totally wiped out in the Holocaust. Many of the authors are people who fled in the 1920s and 1930s to Eretz Yisrael following the pogroms of the Russian Civil war that slaughtered 200,000 Jews. They begged their family and friends to join them in Eretz Yisrael. All who did not perished.
You forgot an important comma! "All who did not, perished!" You brought up very good points. I hope people here WILL look at the Yizkor books of SO many communities. I have spent hundreds of hours reading about destroyed worlds and communities.
Wow! Two of my favorite people to listen to lately! Thank you!!!
Kudos to Haviv Rettig Gur for another lucid explanation of the conflict, and to Coleman Hughes for brilliant, really brilliant questions.
A critical comment about Haviv's description of Naqba - it is simply misleading that he did not mention why Naqba happened in the first place. A civil war broke out between the Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Arabs after the UN decision on 29 November 1947 to partition Palestine. Both the Arabs and Jews were trying to drive each other from their homes, mostly in the Jewish part. No massive exodus of Arabs, 333 Jews and 345 Arabs were killed by January 1948. It is only when the State of Israel was declared on May 14, 1948, and five Arab armies invaded to annihilate the Jews, and the Jews fought back, that the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs fled. Some were driven away by the Jews, most fled to clear the way for the invading Arab armies. It's a familiar, by now, story line - start a war, lose the war, don't admit defeat, don't negotiate a peace agreement, and declare themselves victims
Got told to leave friend all the Arab world told them to leave and when the jews would die they would get their land back so I'm not sure about that
This very video states that the hundreds of thousands that fled in the Naqba did so mainly because spokespersons for the invading Arab armies made clear they would be "viewed as renegades" if they took Israeli protection and remained. That tells you the Arab armies said basically "leave or else!" (they would be viewed as pretty much traitors, and so, the invading Arabs caused the naqba with a threat.
You are lying. Look at plan Dalet. The expulsion of Palestinians was a deliberate plan to take more territory after the partition.
@@roundedges2 . Thanks. And at that time no one told these people (mostly Bedouin or those living in very small villages as I understand) they may not be able to return as that wasn't the immediate goal of the Arab armies. Even today the other Arab countries don't care about the Palestinians. If they did they would have taken them in. Have you read about how Kuwait expelled approx 300K Palestinians after the Gulf War? Only about 50K Palestinians who were married to Kuwaitis were allowed to stay. This is all thanks to Yasser Arafat (Sunni) siding with Iraq when Sadaam Hussein (Shiite) invaded Kuwait.
omg seriously , btween 1995 and 2000 as in the breakthrou of the second intifada , the amount of settelments almost doubled , the pEaCe pRoCeSs was being streched beyond sanity , there were 0 palestinian autonomy in it , there was no recognition of a palestinian state , im still baffeled at the israelis disingenuity , even the supposedly brightest among them
I hope you are also baffled but the absolute poor leadership of the Palestinian national movement from Al-Husseini to Arafat and currently Abbas. In fact, a lot of the current Palestinian plight can be attributed to poor leadership from these people.
@@kedrick93 stop deflectin , he s saying in the video that israelis still dont kn why the second intifada happened , its literally so ignorant , entitled and mind boggeling when palestinians live a few miles away from them under their rule , that they somehow dOnT UnDeRsTaNd why . unless they expect the palestinians to just be happy with the status quo and whatever leftovers theyre given with 0 autonomy . typical israelis
@@kedrick93 and oh trust me it wouldve been no different even if was MLK the leadership of the palestinians strive to self determination on their own land , it just can not happem as long as World leaders are bought by Zionists . And abbas is no leader LOL abbas is a nobody , he s the direct exemple of what it is like to make deal with israel and become its dog , he has zero autonomy , the idf can storm ramallah any second of the day and hes not allowed to interfere when settlers destroy the lives of his own people , so no , hes no leadership , regardless of any mistakes Al husseini or aarafat did , dont put them with that piece of garbage , if aarafat went over with camp david , thats what he would have probably become , an image of a leader while a foreigne army is dictating his life and that of his people , a lap dog , and he never was one , may he rest in peace .
@@kedrick93 dont deflect , hes stating that israelis still to this day dont kn why the second intifada happened , which is crazyyy given that the palestinians sorta live a couple of miles way from them while governed by the same government , a car ride into the west bank and listening to palestinians and reading through the peace negotiantions your own country is dictating would tell you everything , unless you somehow expect of palestinians to be these poor subjegated people that should be thankful to you for gracing them with leftovers while still treating them like dogs , and the so bizarre fake sympathy displaced for the palestianians while depicting them as the people who are being used by their own and the israelis are always in the quest of saving them by killing them LOL
@@kedrick93 Abbas is no leader lmao , hes the direct exemple of whats like to make a deal with israel and what became of the west bank because of it , thats what aarafat wouldve become , an image of a leader while a foreign army is brutilizing his people , a lap dog , and he never was one .
You shouldn’t be embarrassed about the settlements! That’s the Jewish homeland of Judea and Samaria !
Exactly... 🙏
They're illegal under Article 49(6) of the Fourth Geneva Convention, as recognised by the UN Security Council and the International Court of Justice. Even the Israeli government's own advisors warned back in 1968 that they would violate international law.
It’s great to hear someone who understands the alliances. Speaking to people on the street it’s difficult to explain this. It’s never as simple as Muslim vs Jew or right vs left.
There is no actual proof that Raam and Likud party were ever in real negotiation to form a coalition, Mansur Abas said he spoke with Netanyahu, but Netanyahu rejected the idea and Abas lied since he showed nothing to prove his claim.
Abas is a part of the Muslim brotherhood that's responsible for the suffering of many people in Arab countries, He is full of sweet talk when he speaks in Hebrew, but if you listen to what he say in Arabic you'll get a totally different perspective.
Good points.
Love the idea of the week by week chronicles made into a book and his name entering historical books as a great intellectual, with fair, nuanced and human commentaries. Thanks Haviv!!! And thanks gentleman for holding this conversation. ❤
Really fascinating conversation, thank you.
This is fascinating. Thanks Comedy Cellar.
BRAVO
Equity Now! 20% Jews in Westbank & Gaza - like 20% Palestinian-Israelis in Israel
While Coleman never heard a bad word about Jews at Columbia, other Jewish students heard stuff if they were in the right department.
Lots of insight in this incredible and rational discussion. Im very well versed in the "conflict", and i learned a lot from this video.
You learned propaganda man! Go and read the ethnic cleansing of Palestine! Read for Illan pappe and Antony Loewenstein
I'm making this comment only 15 minutes in, so I may edit if something changes further into the podcast...
But I'm at the point where they are questioning why the Americans seem to be so terrible at negotiating with any actors in the Middle East.
I just want to add one point to that conversation- maybe the main point for the Americans is more domestic politics than a desire to be effective in negotiations.
It is an election year in the US and the pro-Palestine mov't has never been bigger and louder. The administration is probably just more interested in appeasing its base by seeming tough on Israel and letting Israel take the blame for the lack of ceasefires.
man, thank you so much for having these conversations. i have been obsessed with learning and studying this conflict ever since October 7, and as someone who is more sympathetic to the Palestinian side, i must say that some of the best and most compassionate cases for Israel i have ever heard have been on your show. i’ve listened to probably a hundred debates on the issue now, read 5 books on it, and also listened to Martyrmade episodes 1-7 on the conflict, which are incredible. you should have Darryl Cooper on!
What a beautiful podcast. "Uncuriosity" is an essential concept which also explains why the "elite" college students weren't curious about vax / mask mandates and were willing to be subjected to them in perpetuity without any pushback whatsoever. What people outside Israel don't know is how many people look, talk and think like Haviv and that his view are in fact mainstream in Israel.
Best analysis iv'e heard , Haviv is amazing
The situation is complexed. It is like South Africa and apartheid. America saw this as a black / white issue, yet it is far more complexed with multiple tribes etc. To really understand, you need to be on the ground.
Thx. To be on the ground and dig, dig, dig for more understanding.
excellent discussion, but Haviv has nothing to say about most of the Jewish refugees who populate Israel - Jews expelled from Arab countries.
Gur has talked about exactly those refugees innumerable times.
But Israel wants these Jews to migrate to there, Israel wants all Jews to migrate there!
@@Edmontonsum Not on this occasion
he literally spoke on it
I never heard of this guy. He sounds like an IDF spokesman. He provides no sources. He’s not factual. Better off, listening to Max Blumenthal or Gideon Levy.
Agreed. Just a nicer zionist shill. Israeiis blaming the USA for their own crimes. My Jewish friends agree..israel,, always rhe victim
Brilliant discourse.
"War is all Hell!" William Tecumseh Sherman.
The deaths of Gazan noncombatants and IDF soldiers is regrettable as are civilian and military casualties in all wars. Despite the extraordinary and uniquely unprecedented efforts of the IDF to spare the lives and limbs of noncombatant Gazans, it is the unavoidable nature of warfare that there will be collateral damage on both sides, no matter how few. Nevertheless, we must never lose sight of the fact that the entire responsibility for this war lies with Hamas and other Islamist terror groups throughout the region. If ever there were just wars, this and the next one against Hezbollah, are them!
S// Graduate, United States Naval War College
There is no different Islam... difference is only how strictly they follow it...there is nothing peaceful in Islam and Qur'an...you Jews should know it better then anyone
Well well. Just straight out racism. Why am I not surprised
@@richardchurchward4413: Islam is an ideology that people choose. It's not "racism" to be critical of an idea!
Absolutely brilliant podcast. Thank you!!!!!
Columbia in particular was the university of Edward Said and his postmodern Orientalism followed up by the most cherry picked history in the world by Rashid Khalid and his “100 year war on Palestine”. Israel is deeply in need of popular academic authors to challenge the post modern fairy tales by these Palestinian professors.
So Palestinian scholars outnumber Jewish scholars on American campuses?
Proof?
SO TRUE!
Haviv is so eloquent and effective - just the best communicator I've ever seen about the experience of Israeli Jews. Have you done Rogan?
The point made at ~51:00 is a really good point. I mean, a REALLY good point. I'm completely sympathetic of the Israeli perspective on this conflict, and even then i don't think I've considered this point. Wow. ❤
Thank you for this.
I love listening to Haviv, and I’m glad he touched on the religious aspect of this war, but alas( I suspect he is an atheist), the depth of understanding regarding the spiritual and religious concepts are lacking. Belief is not something one can be argued into, and that sums up the almost unsurmountable divide and chaos we are experiencing.
Religion and race should never mix. Israel is a toxic example of this.
Thank you for intelligent truth about Israel! People in Canada and US need to learn and understand the truth!!
Great conversation! Hope more will listen
You just introduced a term which identifies US policies on conflict resolutions: Unwinnableness , thank you !
Great talk
On this planet, any people / nation which is subject to settler colonialism, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, war crimes tends to respond in the same way: Resistance.
True. The Moslem conquest of the Jewish Holy Land and ancestral land was sad, indeed.
The best Israeli settler colonialist spokesperson Ive ever seen by far❤
Cruel but fair.
He is a Zionist apologist with a few ambiguous statements to muddy the waters.
Only colonizers are the ones who built a shrine atop the Temple Mount
Wow this is the most info packed comprehensive analysis I’ve seen in a single podcast
There is no democracy in the west bank.
This is very far from the reality that they are forced to live this way and then dare to compare and ctitisize their way.
This is also works the same in Gaza where they are forced to live a different way of life.
Not true. They have agency. Prior to suicide bombings and intifadas there were no barriers. Israelis lived in Gaza till 2005
@@ericantes9203 I do not think you know what's you're talking about. Having an agency and not having barriers does not mean you are giving the life.
Israel ahould give them the life they deserve.
@@Ouzrighara they are living the life they chose. I don't think you understand their society or culture.
@@ericantes9203 This has nothing to do with them, their society or culture.
All what is happening is a reaction to what is happening to them.
They should never pay the price of of the others.
@@Ouzrighara I'm sorry but you are incorrect. 2 million Arab Muslims are citizens of Israel for this reason. Not everyone wants to live under strict Islamic shariah law. I'm not judging them , but pretending they can coexist is ludacris. Many culture norms are polar opposites of each other. In reality both countries are willing parties to this continuing holy war.
I grew up here in Israel during the 2nd Intifada and I know my history very, very well. Until Haviv said I never noticed ; but I truly DO NOT have an idea what the second Intifada was about.
The Palestinians never really wanted the 2 state solution
When Coleman Hughes is your intellectual hero, you’ve confirmed you have no business opining on anything at all 😂
Brilliant discussion!
At minute 33:00 he fail to mention the Right of Return of Palestinian refugees, the core of solving the conflict.
A right of return to land that you lost in battle after starting the war does not exist.
@LAWoman83 your argument is similar to the white settlers in the US. The Appaches, cherokee, Sioux, Comanchee fought the white settlers and lost. So they lost their land. Great argument.
@@everythingandmore5537 not sure what you’re getting at. Palestinian Arabs have no more claim to the land than Palestinian Jews do
@@LAWoman83conquering land is against international law, so is the situation in the Westbank, East Jerusalem and also the genocide in Gaza, so long Israelis don’t understand that, the conflict won’t be solved. So long the western world is maintaining this double standards (fighting Russia, supporting Israel) the conflict will remain as is
@@everythingandmore5537
The native Americans returning to their land does not result in a demographic problem which inevitably destroys the United States. There are no native Americans that want to bomb and burn the US to the ground.
I read the comments that viewers make. It's so refreshing to hear how so many intelligent, open-minded people found incredible value in listening to Haviv. Clarity at last!
He is a brilliant guy. However doing lots of cherry picking to make Israeli policies looking better. Talking about an electoral promise of retreating from western bank settlements and ignoring the fact of doubling the number of illegal settlements is just absurd.
القرآن لا يسمح بالانتحار. إنه يحرم صراحةً أخذ حياة المرء. الآية ذات الصلة هي: سورة النساء (4:29): "وَلَا تَقْتُلُوا أَنْفُسَكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ بِكُمْ رَحِيمًا". لذا بناءً على القرآن، فإن استخدام الأطفال الصغار كدروع بشرية وإرسالهم إلى الموت يعد خطيئة وفقًا للقرآن. ولكن بما أن الأغبياء المفيدين والأشخاص غير المتعلمين الذين يزعمون أنهم مسلمون لا يدركون أن قتل أطفالك ليس استشهادًا، بل هو رحلة ذهاب فقط لإرسال أطفالك ونفسك إلى الجحيم. لا عجب أن العالم الإسلامي المتحضر لا يريد أن يكون له أي علاقة بعبادة الموت في غزة وأن الآخرين من الغباء أن يعرفوا أنهم يقتلون أنفسهم وأطفالهم إلى الأبد. القرآن 101.
American Jews are no different from other Americans. Majority of Americans are not even aware of their lack of curiosity, such lack having been referenced earlier in this talk. History in general makes A LOT of Americans uncomfortable. I do not understand why, even though I’m as American as they come. It so clearly behooves one and one’s nation to have knowledge and participate in discussions and attempt to maintain peace. The only thing Americans are curious about is why a few of us are curious, and this they ask with disdain (not real curiosity). It’s embarrassing and ultimately horrifying. My grandparents would be ashamed
Can't wait to read the Dan/Haviv book