Small Tile on Foam Shower Pan --- Is it a Good Idea?
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- Опубліковано 25 жов 2021
- Foam shower pans such as Schluter Kerdi, Revolutionary Shower Systems, and RodKat have become a very popular option for building a tile shower pan or floor. Manufacturers used to be against it, saying that the foam could not withstand the point load without compressing. Lets see what happens when a tile and hammer drops on one.
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Next video, try all of these tests on a mortar bed with penny rounds!
I would like to thank you. I never had a problem with small tiles in my shower pans made with foam. Your the best. Let keep our industry alive....m
Love that you revisit old videos. I still enjoy doing mud pans but I definitely see the advantage of saving time.
There are many reasons why this is a great video! Nice job explaining this topic 👍
Did a shower with Penny rounds on foam over 10 years ago. Tore out that shower last year. Customer wanted to remodel again. There were absolutely zero issues with the shower floor. I know that's just one example but imo the foam pans are fine.
Thanks for the info. Still on the fence about foam pans. Probably stick with mud.
Isaac has some issues with Schluter I would say. Schluter will cover all problems if you install by their requirements, and penny tile is fine by them.
They are fine.
I just did my first mud pan. On a 4' x 7' shower, center drain. Used your technique for floating the floor and got a great result. Zero standing puddles. Just didnt trust the foam on a second floor shower.
Great video 👍🏼 definitely gave me piece of mind . I do float pans but with cub less the foam 48”x 36” is only 1 1/4” at the thickest point , so recessing the subfloor between the joists is all that’s needed . When floor thickness is a concern and you don’t want to cut into the floor joists these pans are a great option . Ideally they should be made stiffer. Thanks again .
A concern I have and am interested in you evaluating if possible: you've demonstrated that many commercial grouts lose strength when wet. It would be very helpful to see how bad the damage is from these tests (and even less destructive ones) when the grout is wet. Given so much grout to tile ratio in these small tile situations, I would guess there is a lot more weakness being introduced than with larger format tiles. Additionally, it seems unlikely that people have a completely dry shower when they need to do various types of work in it.
Best part of the video is when you said: "Luckily, most people are not driven a forklifts in their shower" lol You're awesome man, thanks for making valuable videos for tilers!
Thank You!! Love your content! Keep up the good work.
Love these type of videos, I hope you continue doing these test videos. Most of us tile guys don’t have the time or want to spend the money doing these tests, but they are incredibly informative and can be very impactful in our decision to use or try different products.
After seeing this video, my question would be, are there other shower pans that are more stiff than this? For example Kerdi board is extremely soft compared to something like GoBoard. This foam pan looked pretty squishy to me, but I have no idea since I’ve never used one.
Brilliant demonstration
So timely- about to install pebbles on a Kerdi pan- DIY- and was a little concerned. Feeling a lot better about it!
How did it turn out Brenda?
I learned this the hard way, my 2 foot step ladder in a shower with 1.5" squares on the pan (ungrouted) the 2 small feet of the ladder sank 2 tiles 1/4" into the foam. I contemplated just replacing the 2 tiles, but decided to replace the entire floor thankfully I did the kerdi had 2 rips in it.... I'm 285# and I only use ladder after grouting the pan and a piece of kerdi board under the ladder feet
Used a Wedi foam pan. It's pretty hard so I didn't cover it when using a step stool with round hard plastic covers on the feet . I later noticed dimples left by the feet on the raw pan. The Wedi pans are waterproof all the way through and the hard surface wasn't cracked. So I wasn't worried as I was installing large format tiles over it.
I really thought U were going to put on a pair of high heals and walk in the shower to demo lol
Thatta been funny
Good Vid Isaac !
Try the same test with 100% epoxy grout. Not the premixed epoxy wanna be grout. If you use 100% epoxy grout, it might actually help it because epoxy grout gets glued to the edge of the tile and holds everything together, so chances are the penny tile won't go anywhere if drop something on it.
Thing you might want to consider is wheelchair use. The compressive strength on the perimeter point of each wheel could be immense, especially for a large heavy person.
I am debating a foam pan vs mud pan for my 32x48 shower. I am leaning towards foam primarily to lighten the weight of the tile shower. There is a basement and we are working on a 1/2in plywood subfloor 16 on center. I plan to lay another 3/4 in plywood over the subfloor for strength. Do you have any thoughts on this? My fear is that a mud pan would add too much weight and cause greater issues than a foam pan.
8:20 Prefer using mortar beds for installs, but will use foam pans if needed.
Groups another thing that some installers are “choosy” about; as in: there’s a few that won’t work with epoxy at all, and then there’s some who don’t care what they use…..and the one who only wants to use epoxy. Ain’t life interesting 😉
Remember that pic of forklift driving over the tile/foam and was like….that was so cool😆
Thx Isaac, have a good one✌🏻
Planning to start my steam shower pan rough in and would like input on what type of liner to use (liquid applied like flex seal or PCV membrane)? Any advice? I have not seen you do any steam showers on your channel but I will look again. THANKS!
Can you do a comparison when Ditra Heat mats are over the foam pad? I'd imagine the heat mat adds rigidity.
I have used a Schluter and a USG pan, and the USG pan leads to a much more quiet sound when struck by the shower water
You use mortar beds but do you do showers on subfloors? Do you choose to reinforce the floor or then go with a foam pan?
Would you consider using permetex red and/or jb weld for a liner? That would be a great videi
So what’s your solution for a curbless shower? Hard to recess 3” into the floor joist for a mud pan when the foam is only 1.25” thick…..
That Foam pan was like hey get the FORK off of me!!!!
From what I have seen and experienced. The kerdi board is a much softer foam then the pans. Does anyone else have this experience? I was brought up using mud pans and at first I was very afraid of the foam. I do mostly builder work now so the big thing for me is time saving.
What kind of grout did you use on the test?
WEDI has a hard cement top on it which gives it rigidity.
Regrouting would be a pain. Is hot mopping the best method used for a shower pan?
My supplier recently started stocking Hydroban boards and pans. Much denser and higher compressive strength than schluter, double I think they said. Although I'd still bet on the forklift.
In your tile and hammer drop test, I can easily imagine damage even over a floated bed.
But I don't think I've ever grouted the floor before tiling the walls. Maybe I should..
This is a great topic. I have had this concern recently, however I normally install my pan mosaic tiles last. So dropping tools on a finished tile would be of little concern. However I have dropped, screws & screw guns and caused damage which were easily fixed with kerti membrain. My concern would be with an installation of a dime sized tile in a handicapped shower area. In the real world would this person be using a cane or walker and would the weight distribution be enough to support both also with grab bars.
How about foam shower pan repair/retile? Installer did a poor job my pitch isnt correct toward my linear drain can floor section be redone?
I’ve used a few different brands of foam pans with no issues. But they were pretty ridged. Was going to install the Hydroban Showerpan with pennyrounds, but just handing it before installing my hands would leave dents all over it. Too soft. Didn’t go through with it. Plus customer is a heavy guy. You run into this issue with the hydroban shower pan?
Do a test with epoxy thin set and epoxy grout.
Help! I have looked all over my area and can not find the L channel you use to float walls.
Ugh, now I have to change my tile selection. I was going to put mesh and mortar on top of the foam to avoid this, but maybe I need to rip out. I have floated a 3x, but just was being lazy
I would be interested in seeing GoBoard “wedges” with penny rounds. Since GoBoard is used on floors like a CBU it has a more compressive strength then any other foam board.
I don't know if tilecoach's forklift test is the same. If the tile went all the way to the end of the board I think it would match better.
Are you using kerdi board as a shower pan example?
That was some small tile and wide grout joints. Wedi requires epoxy grout on anything less than 2x2" on the pan.
I've been wondering if you had a video on selecting large format tiles for a Kerdi floor with a linear drain.
I think he does. That or Sal Diblasi . He’s a awesome old school tile setter also.
Isaac,
I misunderstood your previous UA-cams about foam installations. I saw nothing like the weakness shown in this. I just spent over $1400 on a foam pad and board for the walls. Not a happy camper. Next one will most likely be concrete.
I love your videos as you are so knowledgeable about this. I am wanting to tile my shower floor with hexagon tile that measure 1 1/2 inches square side to square side. whats your opinion about using schleuter shower systems? Thank you so much.
It will be fine!
We use epoxy when we do pebble tile over foam.
That sounds like fun
They also want epoxy grout installed for most foam pans, Which certainly works just fine
Where can I find the pans?
I really prefer the mud. 👌🏼😎
I believe that a 260# person in a wheelchair could compress the foam in a curbless penny tile shower. Most of the weight is at the bottom of the 2 large rear wheels. The front wheels have much less load on them. On your test using a ladder most of your weight is over the ladder feet under the steps. Even loads on each foot doesn't occur until you are standing on the top of the ladder. Thank you for pointing this out. I was considering using a foam base with peeble tiles but I'm no longer going to do this because of the loads a wheelchair could give.
I wish I had seen this two weeks ago. :( after laying them and laying the wall tile the floor tile got loose and had to fix that hot mess. Very disappointing
These trays come with a minimum tile size, just read that. Rounds don't make the cut as it's generally 50mm x 50mm minimum. Some brands like wedi go smaller in trays online
I use 1/4 " foam board. on top of my foam pan... 👍👍👍 no problem...
High heels in a shower? Hmmm….
I bet it happens Lol!!
Well a forklift weighs 11,000 lbs I would expect the foam to get crushed
Just a big guy standing on 1 heel would probably put a dent in the shower pan. Issac, you should have tested that.
*usually* I put planks down before I drive my forklift into the shower.
All these foam pans are is a substitute for craftsmanship, use mud and liner and install it right and it’ll never fail. I’ve seen mass failures with foam over and over.
I guess it depends how heavy the person using the shower will be
400 lb person might cause some issues
Like to see these experiments much better than seeing a shower whoop-dee-doo we can all make pretty showers but I experiments we all hate callbacks
👍
First guy to test this will be the plumber that brings in a step ladder to change out the shower arm. Not sure Id want to chance it too soon after install.
How does one get a hat or shirt
Click on "Show More" just below the video.
I think a wheelchair is the trial I would like to see the most..but when in doubt..mud pack it out
How about a large bottle of shampoo, body wash, etc… you know those from Sam’s or Costco. I’m sure we’ve all dropped a few of those in the past.
Schlutter says theirs no tile size limit on foam pans, only on ditra…. I asked them directly… I still don’t like the idea of it though
450 pound man on a shower chair is over 150 to 200 pounds on 1 leg
ua-cam.com/video/E2Rs_JEKjXE/v-deo.html -- Keep in mind that one of your legs was floating. The ladder effectively isn't on a flat surface, so your weight is really distributed through only three legs and if you want to get really technical, the back legs, being lower and on the side where the steps are, are taking the most weight. Just a useful tidbit.
High heels in the shower sounds more like a pornographic film🎥 not a dinner party🍽 🎊 😂😂😂
6:33 I don't know but to me that pan seems way to soft. I dropped a larger hammer on a penny tile shower floor and had zero damage even as the backside made contact first. Kerdi shower pan and I do believe mortaring down the pan helps a lot as the pan is fully supported and has no voids under it and the impact can be more absorbed.
Problem with the pan is the cost is not worth the risk this pan is way over priced for the cost of it you can pretty much use any other pan system
Drop a cordless drill, bit down and itll auger into that shower like a lawn dart.
Foam? WHY? just WHY?
Shower pans arent supposed to be fast and easy.
Just like the foundation of a home, its the most critical part. Doesnt matter how well its framed or finished if the foundation isnt solid it will ALL fail.
Ditto for showers.
Use concrete and sand mix. 'Nuff said!
Thanks for that demo!
Or maybe its not a dinner party, or an open house where they where high heals in the shower, u know maybe water is running in the shower at the same time that high she has heals in there and there's another person as well, so u never know the situation!!!! Thas why u have to be careful with penny tiles
What would be the results if you did the same exact tests using 2x2 floor tile instead of penny tile?
Smaller then 2 inches is dangerous if not done perfectly right. I would run a membrane on top of foam pan if did Penny tile but I wouldn't do it. I don't really like foam pans. Dry pak way to go alwats
Sell me a shirt i see them in the back
Just try to drop the 24*12 tile or hammer on mud bed installation. You gonna get the same result - broken tile.
Maybe or maybe not but it's definitely not going to punch through the waterproof membrane.
I am old school and just installed this pan and system just for the record I would never in a million years use any of this stuff in my own house not a chance say what you will but when you have the skills to do it why use this it is just silly
Jesus… you’re so gorgeous!!!!
Maybe put some high heels on and walk in the shower next video. 🤔
I don't understand why anyone would lay tile on a substrate that can move? Common sense should tell you that is a bad idea.
Uncouple much?
I only use cement. Dry pack. Never foam.
Honestly I don't like it. I want things to be way above standard in terms of strength that way it will last
Who weighs as much as the ass end of a forklift?? … if you notice he also drove over it with the front of the lift