2017 iMac► bhpho.to/2t1cEoT 2015 iMac deals ► bhpho.to/2tqsnyg Lowest Prices on Apple devices ► prices.appleinsider.com Thinking about upgrading your legacy 27-inch 5K iMac to a 2017 model? Check out this comparison first.
I use both machines for graphic design and video editing and the difference is not so big.. in my opinion you need to buy 2017 version only if you are tec freak..
M. Silva - I run Adobe CC and FCPX everyday on a late 2013 iMac with an i5 and 775m GPU. These spec bumps just trim render times, not fundamentally change what you can do on them. The 2015 and 2017 were both really similar 4-core chips.
You left out something important, the 2017 model is no longer is equipped with a digital optical out 1/8" combo port, whereas the 2015 had this. If you want to use 5.1 channel sound, you will need to buy an external sound card...
I found this video to be fantastic in explaining key differences between the twoi devices. I have a loaded 2015 5k 27” with 3 T Fusion. I bought a loaded 27” 1 T SSD. However, I couldn’t stand the constant fan noise nor could I figure it out. I’m more tempted than anythung to now go ahead and upgrade but as a writer some things are more important than others. The thing about my current 27” I did nt like is the memory topped out at 32 gig. However, this video reveals that it can go to 64 gig. This was the primary resoin foir my uogradng. I’m going to check how much it would cost to upgrade just that. It will make a huge difference in my day to day operation. However, if it’s too expensive, it would likey more sense ti just swap out the machine. All the componentry would be working in tandem. But I’m not a gamer and only do a ittle video. I’m a writer and what I have just upgraded may make enough of a difference keep me happy. I just want to add here that it is so good that finally Apple is putting some effort back into their Macs.
I agree, you do GREAT and objective reviews. Because a large part of how I make my living is with Final Cut, I can't WAIT for my 2017 27" 4.2GHZ quad core i7 with 8GB video RAM and 64GB of system RAM, I opted for the 1TB SSD which should provide more than enough active work space and will use Thunderbolt 3 external drives. Considering that I'm still using a maxed out config Late 2013 3.5GHZ quad core i7 with 32GB and the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 780m 4Mb video, I should see DRAMATIC improvement. It arrives this coming Thursday, or sooner, I hope.
Jobs took flak for supposedly placing form over function and overpricing. However, when it came down to it, Jobs actually delivered great value with the Macs between '05 and '10. Apparently, Cook is determined to actually live up to the unfair criticism Jobs received and give critics legit complaints!
Sadly computers as a whole do not improve or need to improve that fast any longer. Heck most PC users did not want to abandon Windows 7. These days you can use a 5 year computer with no upgrades without any issues at all. I got myself a PC in 2008 and gave it to my brother few years ago. He uses it as his main and only PC at home right now.
I'm still using my iMac from 2011. It's perfectly fine and i've never upgraded the system software. Lol The only difference that i am just now starting to see is the resolution compared to the 4k tvs. Other then that it works perfectly fine & can do the same shit as the new ones. I will admit i do love the retina display on the 27 inch mac.
very true but it depends on what you're doing....if 3D animation or rendering, then new is better due to speed. i hate waiting forever to render stuff out, which is why i'm looking to upgrade.
great video and easy to understand! I have just upgraded from the Original 5K version (Late 2014) but kept with the i5 @ 3.5ghz so should see a huge upgrade in performance then. Especially since I have an extra 32gb of RAM to go inside.... UPDATE... great machine however there is one major flaw.... The headphone jack now no longer supports S/PDIF Optical Out so you now need to find another way to link it into your Hifi. ... I should have seen this coming, especially since the 2017 MacBook Pros also don't have Optical Out !
I am a huge fan of Max's videos. I have the 2015 5K iMac. I love it. But I'm going to skip the 2017 and go with the iMac Pro even with the Mac Pro around the corner. The ability to have a 5K display with great horsepower all-in-one is really appealing to me.
But when it comes to editing video in Final Cut Pro X, performance in the Compressor app is key. How much faster is Compressor on the new iMac versus the old? And does Compressor only use the CPU or the GPU or both? Another thing to consider if you are a video editor is that the upcoming iMac Pro would probably be even better choice, albeit more expensive. Therefore, unless one absolutely needs a desktop Mac right now, it would be more prudent to wait until the iMac Pro comes out before making a final buying decision.
Thanks for the review. Which configuration is best if I'm an Adobe programs user and want to edit 4K video in Premiere? I'm definitely not a gamer, but want speed and performance for breaking into video and possibly motion graphics in After Effects.
I was surprised that the webcam was so bad. My external Logitech webcam that I bought years ago for only $70 was way better then the one that came with my $5,000 iMac.
Hei Max, does the i7 2017 gets above 80 celsius under heavy load? Benchmarks might not be a good measure since they tipically run for only several minutes. I´m talking about having the CPU maxed out for 6 or 7 hours. I´m quite interested in this type of details. Awesome work by the way.
Thank you! Mojave is apparently too heavy for my 2011 Mac. This video is what I was looking for. Are you supposed to measure cooling by fan rpm? I’m used to cfm and running actual tests? Tho I’m always suspicious when you don’t cite any sources in your description...
Yeah the 2015 was a joke. I'm still running the 1440p maxed out 2012. In my opinion this is a better machine then the 2015 as the 680mx actually can drive the display! Also I don't video edit which as far as I'm concerned is the only benefit of the 5K display model.
The 2015 iMac isn't a joke. I use the 2015 iMac with the at 1440P. The difference between the 2012 and the 2015 is the 2015 has better colors and is sharper. My 2015 also has a 1TB SSD which I don't think was available in the 2012 model year. At this resolution it does everything the 2012 can do but better. I get what you are saying though. It's about time Apple put a desktop class graphics chip into the iMac. I'm going to sell my 2015 i7, 395X, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD and get a 2017 i7, best graphics available, 32GB RAM (upgraded myself not through Apple). The only thing I'm not sure about is the 3TB Fusion, 1TB SSD or 2TB SSD. In terms of price I'm leaning towards the fusion drive.
One question that nobody asks themselves or answer is the next: HOW SMOOTH IS VIDEO EDITING ON PREMIERE? Can it handle 1080p playback on the timeline at full resolution? how choppy does it get? Im planning to migrate from a windows laptop to this beast but want to know for sure I can edit video SMOOTHLY. Also, im looking to try FCP as that is smooth for sure.
It can handle 4K at full resolution as long as you don't add any effects to it. Once you add effects it can handle quite a bit at 1/2 resolution is still perfectly fine as the playback windows is about 1/4 of the screen.
I just got the 27" everything maxed out on it with the 2tb SSD. Hooked to two LG 5k monitors. This Mac smokes!!! Yesterday I was watching 8k videos with no problem. Even 8k videos on UA-cam! What more can I say?... nothing.
Very good vid. I found your article via google. Great stuff. Will the 2017 iMac i5 (max RAM) run faster Lightroom edits then the 2015 i7 ( max RAM)? Thank you for your response.
saw an iMac 27” (2015), 512 ssd, m395 gpu. price roughly the same with iMac 4k 2019 with 512ssd and 16gb ram. now not sure should I go for a new one. i’m using MBPr 13” (2015) so both iMac is an upgrade to me
Hey Max, I love your videos! I need some advice: - i'm a photographer/filmmaker enthusiast, i currently have an 5k imac late 2014 (amd m9 m290x 2048mb gpu), and I was thinking about upgrading to one of the imac 2017 base models with radeon pro 570 or 575 (4gb) gpu-s... how much of a performance increase would i get and is it worth the upgrade? I am especially interested in 4k video playback, since both macs that i've used so far (this 5k imac and 2015 macbook pro 13 inch) have always dissapointed me with kinda choppy/stuttery, or simply not fluid/fluent enough 4k video playback? Hope I was clear enough with my question :)
Thanks for the video. I am currently running a late 2015 3.2 i5 with AMD Radeon R9 M390 with 24gb memory and 1TB fusion. I am working pretty much daily with 4K videos on Adobe Premiere and also use AE, photoshop and illustrator. Be great to get your feedback on what the best configuration for the 2017 model would be. I am looking at the 3.8 i5 with Radeon Pro 580 and 512SSD upgrade. Do you think I'm going to see some real benefits to this upgrade over the previous one (from what i've seen from your videos adobe don't make best use of this new spec)....is the 580 overkill over the 575 and is the i7 upgrade work going for? Appreciate your feedback - don't want to make the jump financially when I might be better off waiting a year or so for the next model. Thanks!
Although quite an interesting review, what's the point of only talking about the i7 equipped models, when the i5's are the standard Apple cpu offerings? Disappointing...
Excellent video as usual! Will you do a video or leave a comment on how to connect a 4K TV at 60 Hz to the iMac 2017? According to Apple support, the MacBook Pro 2016 or later is capable of this. But I am unable to get 60 Hz with my iMac 2017 with my Samsung 4K TV. I've tried Apple's adapter with no success. And I tried Pluggable HDMI to USB C connection. Both at only 30hz. The TV has HDMI 2.0 ports. Will HighSierra fix this?
I haven't personally tried that, but if you just get a usb-c to HDMI cable it will likely only support 30HZ. Have you tried one of the USB-C to HDMI 2.0 adapters? You also have to make sure your HDMI cable supports 4K 60hz, as many of the cheaper ones don't have enough bandwidth to do so. I looked up the pluggable HDMI to USB-C and it lists "Not compatible with the 2017 iMac/iMac Pro and 2017 MacBook/MacBook Pro systems" in the product description. Satechi has a new USB-C to HDMI 2.0 adapter that just came out designed for this. Maybe try that out? amzn.to/2ttmbpc
AppleInsider, thanks. Pluggable straight replied to my query to them before I bought their product that that is what is needed. Obviously not. I tried 4K cable without success. So many tech advice out there saying the cable doesn't matter (within reason). If you're looking for a new topic, please do a video on what actually works with 4K TV at 60hz. I see others do it, but they don't look that official per say or they are trying to sell a product.
Hi all. My iMac 2015 27 inch overheated and caught fire. I shut it down saving the rest of the iMac but wondering if anyone else had this issue? And how did you resolve it. Thanks all!
I just bought the 2017 5K mac as I need it for editing and probably can't afford the pro release in December. I have the i7 with 32gb and the Radeon 580. Do you think the overheating problem (with 4k) might be solved with the new High Sierra?? I'm hoping so!
steveholmes77 it’s not really a software issue, but not strong enough cooling for how powerful the hardware is. Like we mentioned in the video, this is only noticeable if you are doing a task that keeps the CPU pegged at 100% for over a 30 seconds at a time. This almost never happened unless your transcoding video or running cpu benchmarks.
For the 2017 5k iMac: Is an i5 CPU sufficient for professional video editing. The upgrade to the i7 costs 370$ in my country. I'm considering the mid tier i5 with a 256GB SSD. What are your thoughts?
It really depends on what you mean by professional. When Apple says "Professional" as in "MacBook Pro" they mean it can run their pro apps well. If video editing in your profession then the extra $370 will be returned quickly and is well worth it. With that said, if you edit 1080P then the i5 will be just fine. You can also edit 4K with an i5 but will need a bit more patience. It also matters what program you are using. FCX will edit much smoother and faster than Premiere Pro.
I'm still confused why we are discussing upgrading CPUs when the iMac clearly wasn't designed for decent power. I mean, if it's just going to overheat and underclock under serious workloads, what's the point in paying extra for power I can't use?
The 2015 and 2017 models don't have much difference, the major difference is the Thunderbolt 3 and the new graphics card, but the new graphics card is a little better than the previous model. i5 base models of 2015 and 2017 still nice computers for video and photo editing
Hi-Fi Insider just another victim of bezeless hype... Do you even know what a desktop computer is, or the bezel around the display is the only thing you care about? CPU, GPU, SSD do you even know what these magic abbreviations mean?
Its a very powerful desktop computer with a 5k display, packed into the space of a 27 inch monitor, off course it has large bezels! Overall still takes up much less space than a traditional desktop setup however
question, i got my imac 27" with 3.2 intel i5 with radoen R9 M390. i am not any editor or anything. i just wanted the biggest mac they had. do you think i should upgrade to 2017 model.
Thanks for your review. I noticed that the fan of the imac 27" 5k 2017 is also in the normal use, in a quiet room, noticeable. Is that normal? Cheers Mark
What about someone who doesn't game much, does video editing, but doesn't work with 4K content on a regular basis and is mostly HD, or SD ? The other question is, I bought my late 2015, January, 2017 before anyone knew when apple was going to refresh for sure. I got the top standard config added 32 GB ram and got apple care for the machine Since the machine is still that new, with all the stuff I added to it, would I be able to get enough for it to fully cover a top standard config model 2017, or is it not worth it since i'm not a heavy editor currently or gamer. BTW, I've never had anything on that machine run slow. Thanks again for the video.
If nothing runs slow and you're happy with it's performance then why upgrade? If you're editing with Premier Pro then there's a smaller difference between the two. Older models always drop in price after a new release because of lower demand leading to higher supply, so you won't get as much as you want out of it. The one thing to consider is future-proofing with the two Thunderbolt 3 ports and of course better performance for when you'll inevitably transition to 4K video editing.
Thanks for the response. Yes I am content with current Mac's performance. Here is a little bit about my background to put some context to the questions I ask. I have several backgrounds, one in computer repair, and one in broadcast production. I have a copy of final cut pro X but learned on Final cut studio and express. The main video format when I did my training was MiniDV. I never got a new camera beyond my iPhone, iPad, and iPod Touch, so I have access to an HD camera. Since I haven't done much in video since school, I've decided to look at screen casting for my UA-cam channel. Since I have a visual impairment, it makes it tough to find work I can transport to and from reliably plus living in an area where not many big production type work is available. With this said, I had considered trying to work from home, and start with UA-cam but now that doesn't seem to be a reliable platform anymore. So in closing, here are the two final points. I've considered switching away from apple so I can maintain my own system and 2 while I have production skills. I don't find myself using them on a regular basis anymore. So I've been stuck in a rut to really know how to proceeds as the youtube view of video editing is different from television, and I feel I have different expectations and understanding of things based on my background then many people who do these videos. Thanks again, have a great day!
My imac was updating and I disconnected it while it was updating. Now it's keep turning of and off showing codes and saying to press a Key to restart, but it never works.... PLEASE HELP ;c
I hate Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt is a scam. At least for regular people who don't have extra thousands of dollars to burn up. I bought my first Thunderbolt iMac when they just came out thinking that power was going to be really great. Then I discovered there was virtually nothing built for it, and only a few options to buy - all hugely expensive. Eventually got a second iMac with TB, but then it was TB2, so anything I got that was Thunderbolt was not functional with the new machine - and then same thing - everything was too expensive. Most useful stuff is some version of USB, but putting the concentration into TB they don't put enough UBS ports on the iMac. If you want more USB you have to find a way to convert TB to USB with an expensive dock - with a bunch of stuff most people don't need. Also - just remember, if you buy the older machine it will be obsolete and unsupported that much faster.
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Hi. I just bought iMac 27", 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, Radeon 8BG, and my CPU temperature goes to 90 - 98C, and Fan goes max 2700rpm. Thats when I am in lightroom or Final Cut. Do you think that is OK for this version iMac's? Thanks ODGOVORI
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Ed Saucin No, it is not in F. CPU runs in 100% usage during rendering or photo editing in Lr. I had contact apple customer support, and few friends who also have sam iMac, and tempature is the same on their iMac’s :)
@ It is normal during rendering, Don't worry about it. Better download a program for Temp control like TG Pro, i using it many years and both my MacBook and iMac runs smoothly.
hey sup im an illustrator using photoshop and drawing tablet (wacom/cintiq).i use my tablette by pluging it with a dvi to mini dvi adapter ...but im scared to buy one off those expensive machine. can i buy an adapter to be able to use my cintiq on those (2015/2017) i mac 5k or i need to buy a new tablette ?:( plz help me my old imac just broke an im a freelance artist so i need i new machine at home to be able to work ... i will buy it in the start of february.
Cool, thanks! One more thing! I have a mid 2011 iMac Pro that I just bought for a good deal because my laptop bit the dust and I needed an upgrade! The specs are good, its the I7, 16gb, 1TB Drive, and its been running good except for being abit slow in some cases, and it feels extremely hot, to where I wonder if its cooling properly lol. It's almost to hot to touch, is that normal?lol. But my question is, do you think it would be worth it to upgrade to 32 GB, and a SSD? I do music production, No video stuff, just music, and I just want to get a couple good years out of this until I build my computer, because I doubt Ill be getting a Mac. But do you think the performance of upgrading to 32gb and an SSD will be worth it? Will it be a big difference?
Upgrade SSD ASAP. My wife has a 2011 MacBook Pro that used to have a regular hard drive. It was so slow she wouldn't even use it. It sat in her closet for a while. Upgraded the SSD and now it's lightning quick. (for a 2011) Don't upgrade RAM yet. Get iStat menus, and if you notice the RAM is maxed out during music production, it may be worth it.
So wait... a DESKTOP underclocks itself?! That is inexcusable. It sucks on a laptop, but understandable. There is no reason to ever, ever underclock a desktop machine - that's just bad design. You mention that most users won't notice... why else would you buy a machine with this power if not to use it? What about gaming for hours on end with high settings? I'm so bummed about this because I was seriously considering the new iMac. Hackintosh, here I come!
Is a late2015 Imac good for DJ-ing...?please answer someone?because I can buy a Imac late2015 5K ,i7 with 32GB RAM and 3TB Fusion Drive...for only 700$...thanx
The issue with the fusion drive is that it's the bottleneck of the computer. An SSD would greatly speed things up (my current dilema: upgrade the 2TB fusion drive on my late 2015 5K iMac or not? {the upgrade has to be done properly, if not it's really easy to damage the screen}).
hi guys I would like to buy an iMac 2017 for use Adobe After effects and Premiere. Do you think is okey buying this one , or buying a pc full specs, a mean I consider buying a computer for rendering and preview on after/Premiere thank you!
If you're invested in AE and Premiere, you might as well get a Windows PC with a decent nVIDIA gfx card. FCP X is a dream to use on a Mac, but its Radeon solutions don't help much with Adobe products at all. It's a bad choice for Apple and I hope one day they'll come around and use nVIDIA again.
Theres o such thing as an apple "upgrade"". if by upgrade you mean sell your old imac for EXTREMELY cheap and then spend quaduaple the amount on a new one then sure, by all means. OR you can get a pc, which better graphics, processor's, motherboards, and a better display. And when ANY of those parts die you can replace them for cheaper for the same hardware or more for something even better at a significantly less cost than apple. You cannot upgrade an imac. You can only buy a new one that will never surpass a pc for half the price.
yes you can upgrade the ram and the hard drive (the same as pc,you will not upcrade the cpu on a pc right?just ram and drive)..Actually on amazon you can get the ram for like 200$ for the 32gb ram ..so if you have 16 if you add 32 =48gb ram that will make major improvements on your speed. ram is easy to upgrade..you can also upgrade your hard drive,if you know how to upgrade the hard drive of a pc the same goes with mac.just you will have to remove the front screen.not too hard ,if you know what you are doing! I recently build a pc..it coust me 1300$ (i7-8700k 3000mhz 16gb ram 500gb ssd)..i was happy but then i realized that the cpu graphics was too low to run any video,i bought the 1070ti = 480$ ..so thats 1780$...then i started searching for a good monitor,because my old monitor wasnt 4k and it sucked for video editing..I realized that i couldnt find anything as good as my macbook pro retina display.. and the only calibrated 4k screens i could find was 1200-2000$ for 4k resolution..That made the total cost = $3000 to be able to edit on a custom build pc..Also the soundcard uad apollo twin i was using on my macbook pro,u can only connect it with thunderbolt..It cost me 150$ to buy the gigabyte alpine and a thunderbolt adaptor to be able to use my soundcard and still i have some delays problems here and then! I also have to add 16gb of ram to be happy..In total the pc cost me 3500$ !! and all parts are from different brands so that means no speciall warranty or something..its not so stable,you can get virus and malware easily! At the same price i could buy a 5k imac with the same cpu power and ram! +warranty from the apple.and we all know that apple = quality..i have a macbook from 2012 and is as new,you are not able to break it even if you try hard and i can still sell it for 600$..pcs are plastic ,build is not strong..disapointing
@@mariospavlou8421 Uhhh what? Bruh. I could buy a prebuilt $1000 gaming pc that could out perform the latest imac. Apple does not= quality. They have a single exhaust port, you cannot open them up yourself without cutting adhesive fuckin glue to remove the screen. You cannot upgrade them by yourself unless you want to risk voiding a warranty. Otherwise schedule an appt and pay $300+ dollars just to have them open your imac up. Give me a break. You can upgrade a pcs ram, hardrive, GRAPHICS CARD, PROCESSOR, COOLING SYSTEM, FANS, CUSTOMIZE LIGHTS, POWER SUPPLY, CASING, DISPLAY, PORTS, DRIVES, SOUND CARDS. Apple is trash pretending to be luxury. It's not. It's a cash grab scam.
You overspent on your pc. That's your mistake and not an argument to justify another terrible purchase by lazily purchasing an apple product because you lack the knowledge to build a pc in the first place.
@@aceinurhole hahahahaha 10000$ gaming pc..dude i live in europe ..to buy a prebuild pc here with the specs of my pc you need 5000$ ..for 3000$ you can find an i5..yes in Usa the prices are much lower...but in europe everything is about double the price..even the imacs from the apple store are more expensive in europe than in usa..
@@aceinurhole also you are talking about 1000$ without a retina display ...keyboard ,mouse..anw just a display similar to 5k retina for a pc it will cost you 2000$ ..dude if you are not into this dont talk too much:) so 1000$ + 2000$ = 3000$ OOOPPPSSSSS we forgot the graphics card... !! did u know that a gtx1070ti will cost you 400-500$ ?? so thats $3500 for a pc to be able to compare with an imac!!! without a graphics card your pc is useless..and just just an i7 cpu it will cost you 400$ ..so dont tell me that you will find a prebuild pc for 1000$ !!! 1000 for what ? a useless case with motherboard and cpu and ram?
The maximum rpm is 2700 rpm which isn't that loud.For gaming or video editing it would be about 2000rpm or 2500rpm.But at least the iMac is very very cool.
Go back to school, you are not making a comparison between the two iMac 🖥 but you are reading 📖 the text next to you, I don't like it you are to fast and pp can't follow you like that.......????
2017 iMac► bhpho.to/2t1cEoT 2015 iMac deals ► bhpho.to/2tqsnyg Lowest Prices on Apple devices ► prices.appleinsider.com
Thinking about upgrading your legacy 27-inch 5K iMac to a 2017 model? Check out this comparison first.
iMac 2017 it will good for 3d ,video editing ,photography editing, sound design
I am still keeping my Late 2015 Imac regardless how better you say it is.
Watching this on my late 2009 iMac and it's still running at the same speed.
i am watch on 2014 imac
I use both machines for graphic design and video editing and the difference is not so big.. in my opinion you need to buy 2017 version only if you are tec freak..
Nino Mhr The Adobe CC 2019 programs like Photoshop, Illustrator an d Indesign run well in the imac 2015? No problem with the graphic board?
M. Silva - I run Adobe CC and FCPX everyday on a late 2013 iMac with an i5 and 775m GPU. These spec bumps just trim render times, not fundamentally change what you can do on them. The 2015 and 2017 were both really similar 4-core chips.
Tech With Sean Thank you for your help!
You left out something important, the 2017 model is no longer is equipped with a digital optical out 1/8" combo port, whereas the 2015 had this. If you want to use 5.1 channel sound, you will need to buy an external sound card...
you are "HANDS DOWN!", the best apple reviewer! keep up the great work!
I agree.
Yep, his presentation is very good.
if you think so
Watching this on my iMac 2015 , still good
Thanks a lot, Max! You're doing a great job!
I found this video to be fantastic in explaining key differences between the twoi devices. I have a loaded 2015 5k 27” with 3 T Fusion. I bought a loaded 27” 1 T SSD. However, I couldn’t stand the constant fan noise nor could I figure it out. I’m more tempted than anythung to now go ahead and upgrade but as a writer some things are more important than others. The thing about my current 27” I did nt like is the memory topped out at 32 gig. However, this video reveals that it can go to 64 gig. This was the primary resoin foir my uogradng. I’m going to check how much it would cost to upgrade just that. It will make a huge difference in my day to day operation. However, if it’s too expensive, it would likey more sense ti just swap out the machine. All the componentry would be working in tandem. But I’m not a gamer and only do a ittle video. I’m a writer and what I have just upgraded may make enough of a difference keep me happy.
I just want to add here that it is so good that finally Apple is putting some effort back into their Macs.
I agree, you do GREAT and objective reviews. Because a large part of how I make my living is with Final Cut, I can't WAIT for my 2017 27" 4.2GHZ quad core i7 with 8GB video RAM and 64GB of system RAM, I opted for the 1TB SSD which should provide more than enough active work space and will use Thunderbolt 3 external drives. Considering that I'm still using a maxed out config Late 2013 3.5GHZ quad core i7 with 32GB and the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 780m 4Mb video, I should see DRAMATIC improvement. It arrives this coming Thursday, or sooner, I hope.
Jobs took flak for supposedly placing form over function and overpricing. However, when it came down to it, Jobs actually delivered great value with the Macs between '05 and '10.
Apparently, Cook is determined to actually live up to the unfair criticism Jobs received and give critics legit complaints!
Great job as always, Max.
Sadly computers as a whole do not improve or need to improve that fast any longer. Heck most PC users did not want to abandon Windows 7. These days you can use a 5 year computer with no upgrades without any issues at all. I got myself a PC in 2008 and gave it to my brother few years ago. He uses it as his main and only PC at home right now.
I'm still using my iMac from 2011. It's perfectly fine and i've never upgraded the system software. Lol The only difference that i am just now starting to see is the resolution compared to the 4k tvs. Other then that it works perfectly fine & can do the same shit as the new ones. I will admit i do love the retina display on the 27 inch mac.
very true but it depends on what you're doing....if 3D animation or rendering, then new is better due to speed. i hate waiting forever to render stuff out, which is why i'm looking to upgrade.
Wait, Max used to work at Apple Insider!?
great video and easy to understand!
I have just upgraded from the Original 5K version (Late 2014) but kept with the i5 @ 3.5ghz so should see a huge upgrade in performance then. Especially since I have an extra 32gb of RAM to go inside.... UPDATE... great machine however there is one major flaw.... The headphone jack now no longer supports S/PDIF Optical Out so you now need to find another way to link it into your Hifi. ... I should have seen this coming, especially since the 2017 MacBook Pros also don't have Optical Out !
really nice video. Would love if you did comparison between new 2017 iMac 27 i5 and i7. Interested about temperatures a fan speeds (noise).
You look so young here
Im looking to buy an old imac. Good info
I am a huge fan of Max's videos. I have the 2015 5K iMac. I love it. But I'm going to skip the 2017 and go with the iMac Pro even with the Mac Pro around the corner. The ability to have a 5K display with great horsepower all-in-one is really appealing to me.
Cactus Tweeter 4
Its still good as any iMac in 2019 except the iMac Pro. Only reason is the Thunderbolt3 port if you need it
Guys go with refurbished apple products, they got the new 2017 models out for refurbished you're getting a new imac but at a discount.
But when it comes to editing video in Final Cut Pro X, performance in the Compressor app is key. How much faster is Compressor on the new iMac versus the old? And does Compressor only use the CPU or the GPU or both?
Another thing to consider if you are a video editor is that the upcoming iMac Pro would probably be even better choice, albeit more expensive. Therefore, unless one absolutely needs a desktop Mac right now, it would be more prudent to wait until the iMac Pro comes out before making a final buying decision.
JDW The final cut numbers are using compressor.
Thank you for the answer. But do you know the answer to my other question? Does Compressor use CPU only or GPU or both?
Nice and concise, love your reviews!
The screen has a pinkish tinge to the edges and image retention
2017 5K with Radeon 580 is vastly superior for Photoshop and Indesign work.
how's it holding lately with PS/AI/IND programs? thanks!
Thanks for the comprehensive review.
Thanks for the review. Which configuration is best if I'm an Adobe programs user and want to edit 4K video in Premiere? I'm definitely not a gamer, but want speed and performance for breaking into video and possibly motion graphics in After Effects.
I was surprised that the webcam was so bad. My external Logitech webcam that I bought years ago for only $70 was way better then the one that came with my $5,000 iMac.
Hei Max, does the i7 2017 gets above 80 celsius under heavy load?
Benchmarks might not be a good measure since they tipically run for only several minutes. I´m talking about having the CPU maxed out for 6 or 7 hours.
I´m quite interested in this type of details. Awesome work by the way.
Great comparison!
Thank you! Mojave is apparently too heavy for my 2011 Mac. This video is what I was looking for. Are you supposed to measure cooling by fan rpm? I’m used to cfm and running actual tests?
Tho I’m always suspicious when you don’t cite any sources in your description...
Nothing is worth the upgrade when it costs $2500
You know you can sell a 2015 iMac right? It's not like you won't get some for it which can go towards a new iMac...!
was this test between i7 iMacs? or i5 processors?
same boring design, but I like your review
Yeah the 2015 was a joke. I'm still running the 1440p maxed out 2012. In my opinion this is a better machine then the 2015 as the 680mx actually can drive the display! Also I don't video edit which as far as I'm concerned is the only benefit of the 5K display model.
The 2015 iMac isn't a joke. I use the 2015 iMac with the at 1440P. The difference between the 2012 and the 2015 is the 2015 has better colors and is sharper. My 2015 also has a 1TB SSD which I don't think was available in the 2012 model year. At this resolution it does everything the 2012 can do but better. I get what you are saying though. It's about time Apple put a desktop class graphics chip into the iMac. I'm going to sell my 2015 i7, 395X, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD and get a 2017 i7, best graphics available, 32GB RAM (upgraded myself not through Apple). The only thing I'm not sure about is the 3TB Fusion, 1TB SSD or 2TB SSD. In terms of price I'm leaning towards the fusion drive.
Richard Crossley nope the 5K and processor is 50% better than the 2012 model
One question that nobody asks themselves or answer is the next:
HOW SMOOTH IS VIDEO EDITING ON PREMIERE?
Can it handle 1080p playback on the timeline at full resolution? how choppy does it get?
Im planning to migrate from a windows laptop to this beast but want to know for sure I can edit video SMOOTHLY.
Also, im looking to try FCP as that is smooth for sure.
It can handle 4K at full resolution as long as you don't add any effects to it. Once you add effects it can handle quite a bit at 1/2 resolution is still perfectly fine as the playback windows is about 1/4 of the screen.
Macs aren't getting any nVidia love lately, so there's no CUDA for Adobe to nibble on. :(
I am thinking to buy i mac 27" 5k for my studio can you pls help me which will be good for me 2015 or 2017 model.
I just got the 27" everything maxed out on it with the 2tb SSD. Hooked to two LG 5k monitors. This Mac smokes!!! Yesterday I was watching 8k videos with no problem. Even 8k videos on UA-cam! What more can I say?... nothing.
Very good vid. I found your article via google. Great stuff. Will the 2017 iMac i5 (max RAM) run faster Lightroom edits then the 2015 i7 ( max RAM)? Thank you for your response.
saw an iMac 27” (2015), 512 ssd, m395 gpu. price roughly the same with iMac 4k 2019 with 512ssd and 16gb ram. now not sure should I go for a new one. i’m using MBPr 13” (2015) so both iMac is an upgrade to me
Hey Max, I love your videos! I need some advice:
- i'm a photographer/filmmaker enthusiast, i currently have an 5k imac late 2014 (amd m9 m290x 2048mb gpu), and I was thinking about upgrading to one of the imac 2017 base models with radeon pro 570 or 575 (4gb) gpu-s... how much of a performance increase would i get and is it worth the upgrade? I am especially interested in 4k video playback, since both macs that i've used so far (this 5k imac and 2015 macbook pro 13 inch) have always dissapointed me with kinda choppy/stuttery, or simply not fluid/fluent enough 4k video playback? Hope I was clear enough with my question :)
i got a 2014 5k for 500
Where?
I sold it to him...it had a cracked screen!!!
Monthly?
Thanks for the video. I am currently running a late 2015 3.2 i5 with AMD Radeon R9 M390 with 24gb memory and 1TB fusion. I am working pretty much daily with 4K videos on Adobe Premiere and also use AE, photoshop and illustrator. Be great to get your feedback on what the best configuration for the 2017 model would be.
I am looking at the 3.8 i5 with Radeon Pro 580 and 512SSD upgrade.
Do you think I'm going to see some real benefits to this upgrade over the previous one (from what i've seen from your videos adobe don't make best use of this new spec)....is the 580 overkill over the 575 and is the i7 upgrade work going for?
Appreciate your feedback - don't want to make the jump financially when I might be better off waiting a year or so for the next model. Thanks!
Why would u upgrade if u have a perfect iMac, u can’t be keep on having the latest tech u know
Although quite an interesting review, what's the point of only talking about the i7 equipped models, when the i5's are the standard Apple cpu offerings?
Disappointing...
Why does the 2017 iMac have lower fan noise, as you tell at the end?
Is it worth holding out for the iMac Pro?
What are the dimensions of the 2017 27 imac trapezoid box?
Didn’t the 2017 add P3 color gamut that the 2015 didn’t have?
Excellent video as usual! Will you do a video or leave a comment on how to connect a 4K TV at 60 Hz to the iMac 2017? According to Apple support, the MacBook Pro 2016 or later is capable of this. But I am unable to get 60 Hz with my iMac 2017 with my Samsung 4K TV. I've tried Apple's adapter with no success. And I tried Pluggable HDMI to USB C connection. Both at only 30hz. The TV has HDMI 2.0 ports. Will HighSierra fix this?
I haven't personally tried that, but if you just get a usb-c to HDMI cable it will likely only support 30HZ. Have you tried one of the USB-C to HDMI 2.0 adapters? You also have to make sure your HDMI cable supports 4K 60hz, as many of the cheaper ones don't have enough bandwidth to do so. I looked up the pluggable HDMI to USB-C and it lists "Not compatible with the 2017 iMac/iMac Pro and 2017 MacBook/MacBook Pro systems" in the product description. Satechi has a new USB-C to HDMI 2.0 adapter that just came out designed for this. Maybe try that out? amzn.to/2ttmbpc
AppleInsider, thanks. Pluggable straight replied to my query to them before I bought their product that that is what is needed. Obviously not. I tried 4K cable without success. So many tech advice out there saying the cable doesn't matter (within reason). If you're looking for a new topic, please do a video on what actually works with 4K TV at 60hz. I see others do it, but they don't look that official per say or they are trying to sell a product.
Hi all. My iMac 2015 27 inch overheated and caught fire. I shut it down saving the rest of the iMac but wondering if anyone else had this issue? And how did you resolve it. Thanks all!
I just bought the 2017 5K mac as I need it for editing and probably can't afford the pro release in December. I have the i7 with 32gb and the Radeon 580. Do you think the overheating problem (with 4k) might be solved with the new High Sierra?? I'm hoping so!
steveholmes77 it’s not really a software issue, but not strong enough cooling for how powerful the hardware is. Like we mentioned in the video, this is only noticeable if you are doing a task that keeps the CPU pegged at 100% for over a 30 seconds at a time. This almost never happened unless your transcoding video or running cpu benchmarks.
Any suggestions for when transcoding 4k? Thanks for your quick reply.
For the 2017 5k iMac: Is an i5 CPU sufficient for professional video editing. The upgrade to the i7 costs 370$ in my country.
I'm considering the mid tier i5 with a 256GB SSD. What are your thoughts?
It really depends on what you mean by professional. When Apple says "Professional" as in "MacBook Pro" they mean it can run their pro apps well. If video editing in your profession then the extra $370 will be returned quickly and is well worth it. With that said, if you edit 1080P then the i5 will be just fine. You can also edit 4K with an i5 but will need a bit more patience. It also matters what program you are using. FCX will edit much smoother and faster than Premiere Pro.
westcoast870 if you care about it being more quiet I will go with i5
Thanks for the reply!
I'm still confused why we are discussing upgrading CPUs when the iMac clearly wasn't designed for decent power. I mean, if it's just going to overheat and underclock under serious workloads, what's the point in paying extra for power I can't use?
The 2015 and 2017 models don't have much difference, the major difference is the Thunderbolt 3 and the new graphics card, but the new graphics card is a little better than the previous model.
i5 base models of 2015 and 2017 still nice computers for video and photo editing
Does it thermal throttle as it is much more powerful than 2015 Imac?
YTYTYTY we cover this at the start of the video. 👍
that screen bezel is the deal breaker for me. Look like from 2007!
Hi-Fi Insider You were never interested in the first place for it to be a dealbreaker, nice try. It's a desktop, nobody even cares about bezels.
Hi-Fi Insider just another victim of bezeless hype... Do you even know what a desktop computer is, or the bezel around the display is the only thing you care about? CPU, GPU, SSD do you even know what these magic abbreviations mean?
If you use multiple external display as I do, huge bezel is definitely minus.
Its a very powerful desktop computer with a 5k display, packed into the space of a 27 inch monitor, off course it has large bezels! Overall still takes up much less space than a traditional desktop setup however
Hi-Fi Insider totally agree with you
thanks!
I move around a lot so I use MacBook Pro
question, i got my imac 27" with 3.2 intel i5 with radoen R9 M390. i am not any editor or anything. i just wanted the biggest mac they had. do you think i should upgrade to 2017 model.
Thanks for your review. I noticed that the fan of the imac 27" 5k 2017 is also in the normal use, in a quiet room, noticeable. Is that normal? Cheers Mark
He mentioned that the fan can get loud by photo or video editing or maybe at gaming as well.But the iMac is never getting hot.
It turned out that the fan sound of the imac is mormal. I was used to the non existing macbook fan Sound 😉 sorry for any inconvenience. Cheers Mark
The thing I don't like about Apple is that their products are too over priced
What about someone who doesn't game much, does video editing, but doesn't work with 4K content on a regular basis and is mostly HD, or SD ? The other question is, I bought my late 2015, January, 2017 before anyone knew when apple was going to refresh for sure. I got the top standard config added 32 GB ram and got apple care for the machine Since the machine is still that new, with all the stuff I added to it, would I be able to get enough for it to fully cover a top standard config model 2017, or is it not worth it since i'm not a heavy editor currently or gamer. BTW, I've never had anything on that machine run slow.
Thanks again for the video.
If nothing runs slow and you're happy with it's performance then why upgrade? If you're editing with Premier Pro then there's a smaller difference between the two. Older models always drop in price after a new release because of lower demand leading to higher supply, so you won't get as much as you want out of it. The one thing to consider is future-proofing with the two Thunderbolt 3 ports and of course better performance for when you'll inevitably transition to 4K video editing.
Thanks for the response. Yes I am content with current Mac's performance. Here is a little bit about my background to put some context to the questions I ask. I have several backgrounds, one in computer repair, and one in broadcast production. I have a copy of final cut pro X but learned on Final cut studio and express. The main video format when I did my training was MiniDV. I never got a new camera beyond my iPhone, iPad, and iPod Touch, so I have access to an HD camera. Since I haven't done much in video since school, I've decided to look at screen casting for my UA-cam channel. Since I have a visual impairment, it makes it tough to find work I can transport to and from reliably plus living in an area where not many big production type work is available.
With this said, I had considered trying to work from home, and start with UA-cam but now that doesn't seem to be a reliable platform anymore. So in closing, here are the two final points. I've considered switching away from apple so I can maintain my own system and 2 while I have production skills. I don't find myself using them on a regular basis anymore. So I've been stuck in a rut to really know how to proceeds as the youtube view of video editing is different from television, and I feel I have different expectations and understanding of things based on my background then many people who do these videos.
Thanks again, have a great day!
So 2017 is faster...now that’s a surprise 😉
My imac was updating and I disconnected it while it was updating. Now it's keep turning of and off showing codes and saying to press a Key to restart, but it never works.... PLEASE HELP ;c
I may buy a late 2015 at £800 is this good deal
Ist possible to Upgrade the MRam of a imac late 2015 up to 64 ram? or just up to 32?
1:44 I prefer using a PC
Isnt the 580 Graphics card better for editing 4k video with final cut pro?
I hate Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt is a scam. At least for regular people who don't have extra thousands of dollars to burn up.
I bought my first Thunderbolt iMac when they just came out thinking that power was going to be really great. Then I discovered there was virtually nothing built for it, and only a few options to buy - all hugely expensive. Eventually got a second iMac with TB, but then it was TB2, so anything I got that was Thunderbolt was not functional with the new machine - and then same thing - everything was too expensive. Most useful stuff is some version of USB, but putting the concentration into TB they don't put enough UBS ports on the iMac. If you want more USB you have to find a way to convert TB to USB with an expensive dock - with a bunch of stuff most people don't need. Also - just remember, if you buy the older machine it will be obsolete and unsupported that much faster.
Hi. I just bought iMac 27", 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, Radeon 8BG, and my CPU temperature goes to 90 - 98C, and Fan goes max 2700rpm. Thats when I am in lightroom or Final Cut. Do you think that is OK for this version iMac's? Thanks
ODGOVORI
Ed Saucin No, it is not in F. CPU runs in 100% usage during rendering or photo editing in Lr. I had contact apple customer support, and few friends who also have sam iMac, and tempature is the same on their iMac’s :)
@ It is normal during rendering, Don't worry about it. Better download a program for Temp control like TG Pro, i using it many years and both my MacBook and iMac runs smoothly.
They slow the iMacs down when you upgrade. Almost made with builtin obsolescence.
iMac 27, 5k 2014, 2015, 2017 is 10bit !!!
It's literally the same.
hey sup im an illustrator using photoshop and drawing tablet (wacom/cintiq).i use my tablette by pluging it with a dvi to mini dvi adapter ...but im scared to buy one off those expensive machine. can i buy an adapter to be able to use my cintiq on those (2015/2017) i mac 5k or i need to buy a new tablette ?:( plz help me my old imac just broke an im a freelance artist so i need i new machine at home to be able to work ... i will buy it in the start of february.
If I have an audio interface that has TB-1 or TB-2 would it still be comparable with TB-3 with an adapter? Like , is TB-3 ports backwards comparable?
Yes it's backward compatible with the right adapter.
Cool, thanks! One more thing! I have a mid 2011 iMac Pro that I just bought for a good deal because my laptop bit the dust and I needed an upgrade! The specs are good, its the I7, 16gb, 1TB Drive, and its been running good except for being abit slow in some cases, and it feels extremely hot, to where I wonder if its cooling properly lol. It's almost to hot to touch, is that normal?lol. But my question is, do you think it would be worth it to upgrade to 32 GB, and a SSD? I do music production, No video stuff, just music, and I just want to get a couple good years out of this until I build my computer, because I doubt Ill be getting a Mac. But do you think the performance of upgrading to 32gb and an SSD will be worth it? Will it be a big difference?
Upgrade SSD ASAP. My wife has a 2011 MacBook Pro that used to have a regular hard drive. It was so slow she wouldn't even use it. It sat in her closet for a while. Upgraded the SSD and now it's lightning quick. (for a 2011)
Don't upgrade RAM yet. Get iStat menus, and if you notice the RAM is maxed out during music production, it may be worth it.
Okay, Thanks! SO, whats Istat menu's?
does anyone think its worth buying a late 2015 iMac 21.5 for 600? i currently am using a 2012 MacBook pro 15 inch
Yes worth the upgrade
So wait... a DESKTOP underclocks itself?! That is inexcusable. It sucks on a laptop, but understandable. There is no reason to ever, ever underclock a desktop machine - that's just bad design.
You mention that most users won't notice... why else would you buy a machine with this power if not to use it? What about gaming for hours on end with high settings?
I'm so bummed about this because I was seriously considering the new iMac. Hackintosh, here I come!
Is a
late2015 Imac good for DJ-ing...?please answer someone?because I can buy a Imac late2015 5K ,i7 with 32GB RAM and 3TB Fusion Drive...for only 700$...thanx
The issue with the fusion drive is that it's the bottleneck of the computer. An SSD would greatly speed things up (my current dilema: upgrade the 2TB fusion drive on my late 2015 5K iMac or not? {the upgrade has to be done properly, if not it's really easy to damage the screen}).
hi guys I would like to buy an iMac 2017 for use Adobe After effects and Premiere. Do you think is okey buying this one , or buying a pc full specs, a mean I consider buying a computer for rendering and preview on after/Premiere
thank you!
If you're invested in AE and Premiere, you might as well get a Windows PC with a decent nVIDIA gfx card. FCP X is a dream to use on a Mac, but its Radeon solutions don't help much with Adobe products at all. It's a bad choice for Apple and I hope one day they'll come around and use nVIDIA again.
hey thanks!
isnt the radeon pro a notebook chip and the radeon xt the desktop chip?
Not anymore. Its very slightly Lower clocked but the same GPU chip as the RX580.
But the Core voltage is heavily reduced out of the factory.
Ok need help...2015 MAXED OUT-512 SSD-all the whistles for $1500 or should I sell a kidney and get the 2017- but of course NOT MAXED...
Theres o such thing as an apple "upgrade"". if by upgrade you mean sell your old imac for EXTREMELY cheap and then spend quaduaple the amount on a new one then sure, by all means. OR you can get a pc, which better graphics, processor's, motherboards, and a better display. And when ANY of those parts die you can replace them for cheaper for the same hardware or more for something even better at a significantly less cost than apple. You cannot upgrade an imac. You can only buy a new one that will never surpass a pc for half the price.
yes you can upgrade the ram and the hard drive (the same as pc,you will not upcrade the cpu on a pc right?just ram and drive)..Actually on amazon you can get the ram for like 200$ for the 32gb ram ..so if you have 16 if you add 32 =48gb ram that will make major improvements on your speed. ram is easy to upgrade..you can also upgrade your hard drive,if you know how to upgrade the hard drive of a pc the same goes with mac.just you will have to remove the front screen.not too hard ,if you know what you are doing!
I recently build a pc..it coust me 1300$ (i7-8700k 3000mhz 16gb ram 500gb ssd)..i was happy but then i realized that the cpu graphics was too low to run any video,i bought the 1070ti = 480$ ..so thats 1780$...then i started searching for a good monitor,because my old monitor wasnt 4k and it sucked for video editing..I realized that i couldnt find anything as good as my macbook pro retina display.. and the only calibrated 4k screens i could find was 1200-2000$ for 4k resolution..That made the total cost = $3000 to be able to edit on a custom build pc..Also the soundcard uad apollo twin i was using on my macbook pro,u can only connect it with thunderbolt..It cost me 150$ to buy the gigabyte alpine and a thunderbolt adaptor to be able to use my soundcard and still i have some delays problems here and then!
I also have to add 16gb of ram to be happy..In total the pc cost me 3500$ !! and all parts are from different brands so that means no speciall warranty or something..its not so stable,you can get virus and malware easily!
At the same price i could buy a 5k imac with the same cpu power and ram! +warranty from the apple.and we all know that apple = quality..i have a macbook from 2012 and is as new,you are not able to break it even if you try hard and i can still sell it for 600$..pcs are plastic ,build is not strong..disapointing
@@mariospavlou8421 Uhhh what? Bruh. I could buy a prebuilt $1000 gaming pc that could out perform the latest imac. Apple does not= quality. They have a single exhaust port, you cannot open them up yourself without cutting adhesive fuckin glue to remove the screen. You cannot upgrade them by yourself unless you want to risk voiding a warranty. Otherwise schedule an appt and pay $300+ dollars just to have them open your imac up. Give me a break. You can upgrade a pcs ram, hardrive, GRAPHICS CARD, PROCESSOR, COOLING SYSTEM, FANS, CUSTOMIZE LIGHTS, POWER SUPPLY, CASING, DISPLAY, PORTS, DRIVES, SOUND CARDS. Apple is trash pretending to be luxury. It's not. It's a cash grab scam.
You overspent on your pc. That's your mistake and not an argument to justify another terrible purchase by lazily purchasing an apple product because you lack the knowledge to build a pc in the first place.
@@aceinurhole hahahahaha 10000$ gaming pc..dude i live in europe ..to buy a prebuild pc here with the specs of my pc you need 5000$ ..for 3000$ you can find an i5..yes in Usa the prices are much lower...but in europe everything is about double the price..even the imacs from the apple store are more expensive in europe than in usa..
@@aceinurhole also you are talking about 1000$ without a retina display ...keyboard ,mouse..anw just a display similar to 5k retina for a pc it will cost you 2000$ ..dude if you are not into this dont talk too much:) so 1000$ + 2000$ = 3000$
OOOPPPSSSSS we forgot the graphics card... !! did u know that a gtx1070ti will cost you 400-500$ ??
so thats $3500 for a pc to be able to compare with an imac!!! without a graphics card your pc is useless..and just just an i7 cpu it will cost you 400$ ..so dont tell me that you will find a prebuild pc for 1000$ !!! 1000 for what ?
a useless case with motherboard and cpu and ram?
Those are very low graphics card specs apple uses
"It got loud"... Okay, not gonna buy it.
The maximum rpm is 2700 rpm which isn't that loud.For gaming or video editing it would be about 2000rpm or 2500rpm.But at least the iMac is very very cool.
This guy talk so damn fast its hard to keep up!
my IMac is black
I can't stand how you say "foeword..." its "forward."
Nice video thoughá
No
first
Go back to school, you are not making a comparison between the two iMac 🖥 but you are reading 📖 the text next to you, I don't like it you are to fast and pp can't follow you like that.......????