Gospel Thrillers! When Jesus Meets Robert Ludlum
Вставка
- Опубліковано 29 січ 2024
- Visit www.bartehrman.com/courses/ to shop from Bart Ehrman’s online courses and get a special discount by using code: MJPODCAST on all courses.
Many listeners have read a relatively new kind of thriller -- about a mysterious discovery of a long-lost Gospel and the protagonist's attempt to make it public while being hounded in harrowing scenes by political or ecclesiastical forces of darkness (the Nazis! The Vatican!). In this episode Bart interviews the first scholar to discuss this genre, who in fact coined its name, in a book just now coming out: Andrew Jacobs, Senior Research Fellow at Harvard. The backstory is fascinating and illuminating: these books started to appear during the Cold War, in the context of the increasingly serious questioning of authority, imperialism, and colonialism, and just when biblical scholars were themselves publicizing new finds that called into question the traditional truths of Christianity. This context raises all kinds of questions. Why the sudden passion for Gospel conspiracy? Are academic scholars dealing with real-life discoveries themselves "objective" observers, or are they too caught up in the ideologies behind these novels?
I think Mathew is the most read because it's the first book, and most Christians never get past the first book when reading the Bible.
"Matthew" claimed that God walked around town for thirty years and then died and became a zombie and then the graves opened and the corpses and skeletons rose out and "appeared to many" and all of that happened without any of the locals noticing.
It's hard to top that!
And Genesis. hint: Abraham was an El-ite -- not a Jew. He traced his ancestry to Seth, Adam's and Eve's son, who first taught men about god, EL. By faith, you are an El-ite, too. Abraham believed. And it was counted righteous.
And WE (you too) have been tasked with the progressive perfection of mankind -- God's composite of unique individuals with ascension promise -- even if it takes us all 6,488 years remaining in Abraham's 10,000-year Covenant, after Moses renegotiated, face-to-face as a friend, and 553 years were not counted against us.
Man . . . kind includes ALL OF US; from the first human pair, unto the last man or woman, and -- for those who pass the faith-test -- onto the afterlife, we are ONE Creation, potentially everlasting. For the individual, self-mastery is a worthy goal -- especially with an expanding sense of self, as an everlasting child of God.
Exercise YOUR faith to get in shape for this awakening, because the Vernal Equinox of 2030, marks the beginning of the Third, 1000-year Days of Heaven, since Jesus taught us, All men are brothers, love one another, and be perfect -- and was then crucified in the year we now call 30 AD. 2 Peter 3: 8 Matthew 5: 44-48
We have been told SOONER. 09/23/26 is exactly 3.5 years sooner. It is the autumn equinox of the US' and the illuminati's 250th year (1776-2026). 10/12/26 is 42 new moons sooner. There will be an Epochal Eclipse a CROSS North America on April 8th 2024, when MORE shall be revealed to those with "eyes and ears." The rest will see only an eclipse. Don't stare at the sun: Matthew 16: 4. Exercise YOUR faith: Jonah 3: 5, 8 Jonah 4: 11.
@@twitherspoon8954 what 😲... Lol
Funny..., I gotta admit... Lol
@@twitherspoon8954 Excuse me! Jesus died and then the graves opened and the corpses and skeletons rose out and "appeared to.many," and *THEN* Jesus became a zombie. Get it right! And of course the locals noticed, but it was all covered up!
@@oliverbrownlow5615
_"Get it right!"_
Matthew 27:53: "After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people."
_"And of course the locals noticed, but it was all covered up!"_
Source?
It’s always funny to hear about swearing on the Bible in court. If I’m ever asked to do this, I’ll pick it up, open it to Matthew 5:34, and read it aloud.
I’ll then put it aside and, if I’m still required to make an oath, I’ll swear on my own life, which is infinitely more meaningful than the comical irony of the oath on the Bible.
That isn't my interpretation of that passage. The bible is the apparent word of god, so you are making an oaths in god's name. Which means according to Jewish law, is a binding oath. If an oath is made in another way, it isn't binding and is worthless.
I believe that legally you are permitted to "affirm" rather than swear on the Bible that your testimony will be truthful.
@@oliverbrownlow5615
Why have the Bible involved at all? How bout the flag instead?
@@he1ar1 The passage is specifically referring to making an oath in God's name, so your interpretation is just wrong.
I remember reading "The Holy Blood & the Holy Grail". It was a good read and well put together. Turns out that "Pierre Plantard de St Clair" was a forger, con artist, and Nazi collaborator :P The three authors of the book had been royally (no pun intended) conned :P
Wake up, baby, new genre of literature just dropped
I dunno. The distinction that Jacobs draws between the "Gospel Thrillers" and books like Dan Brown's is rather vague. Alternative narratives have popped up over the last two-thousand years.
@@bdwonI think it’s pretty clear. The Da Vinci Code would count if the characters discovered a new gospel, but they don’t.
Holy hell!
The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library weren't discovered until the 1940's. The possibility of finding texts that make us totally rethink Christianity certainly exists
Wow. I didn't think I would find this one interesting, but I did! I'm a retired English professor. Literary studies these days is much more about cultural studies and the cultural status of texts than it is about interpreting the "classics." I taught a course called, "Monsters, Mutants and Aliens in Pop Culture and Literature," in which we examined how monsters in pop novels and films are often figurations of social and cultural anxieties. And the very first "monster" we focused on was Satan. This analysis of vulnerability of the cultural status of the bible is right up my street.
Every time I looked at the screen, Dr. Bart had a look of perplexed exasperation on his face. :)
Years of dealing with students will do that.
What a fantastic subject! I love the idea of the "Bible Thriller" as a lens to partially view the attitudes regarding the possible vulnerability of how the Bible is views in Western culture. Thanks to both of you.
Jesus, HIMSELF, explains the fulfillment of His resurrection -- John 16: 7-15 -- when the Spirit of Truth -- not Jesus in the flesh -- comes to all who will receive him . . . and final judgement for the devil and dragon -- Daniel 7: 9-14 Revelation 12: 12-13. The Vernal Equinox of 2030, marks the beginning of the Third, 1000-year Days of Heaven since Jesus was crucified in 30 AD. 2 Peter 3: 8. And we have been told SOONER. 09/23/26 is exactly 3.5 years sooner. It is the autumn equinox of the US' and the illuminati's 250th year (1776-2026). 10/12/26 is 42 new moons sooner.
Albert Pike's WW 3 began October 7th 2023: God vs God (IS I vs I AM). THEN, the Great Re-Set on 09/23/26, when THEY unveil (apocalypse) the NEON GAUD -- their light bearer -- a sentient machine and comptroller of our currencies, with the Plan to perfect Humanity. Men and women will never lie, cheat, steal, or murder again -- so help us GAUD, YOU WILL BE HAPPY.
Fentanyl Euphoria for the MAsses -- FEMA -- inspired by Huxley's SOMA (a synthetic opiate to replace religion) for a Brave New World Order. You WILL Want More -- so do as you're told.
THEN, 10/12/26, "You have destroyed yourselves with your endless wars of Gods. Now bow down and worship YOUR BEAST." That's what Xi says, and we go into self-captivity for 41.67 years -- one heavenly hour (1000/24).
ONE LAST CHANCE for reprieve: Epochal Eclipse a CROSS North America on April 8th 2024, when MORE shall be revealed to those with "eyes and ears." The rest will see only an eclipse. Don't stare at the sun: Matthew 16: 4 Exercise YOUR faith -- Jonah 3: 5, 8 Jonah 4: 11.
And if you seek a place to make your stand -- stand with the church of brotherly love -- Revelation 3: 6-12. We keep Jesus' commandments -- Matthew 22: 36-40, and have the "Little Strength" of the Rock -- Matthew 16: 17-18. See also: Matthew 6: 5-8 And then consider that Never before right now -- not in the entire history of humanity -- have so many educated people lived so freely and so abundantly. And for just 18 years, we have been connected to this Shared, Worldwide Experience with near-instant communication. It is GUARANTEED to Wake "THIS" Generation Up! Because the Father knows what you need, before you ask,
You like all the crap then
WoW. I didn't even know it but I think I have written a "Gospel thriller", well, not exactly but the next best thing. It's not the Gospels, but arguably the next closest thing, my thriller revolves around a document "supposedly" written by C.S. Lewis!! Here is a very short blurb:
Belfast, Northern Ireland. Shannon Dillon (26) unearths a hidden document linked to C. S. Lewis, suggesting his alleged involvement in the occult. Thieves break in, steal the parcel, and leave a trail of death. Shannon vows revenge and travels to America. She recruits Simon, a nerdy, evangelical literature professor who reluctantly follows. Against Simon’s Christian values, they embark on a mission to retrieve the parcel (fueled by Shannon’s IRA training) and would bring the American murderer to justice. Amidst many dangers, toils, and snares, an uneasy romance blossoms as they walk through the valley of the shadow of death.
I am now looking for an agent. Does anyone find this interesting?
I was an Elizabeth Peters fan long ago and remember reading the book that the guest described. Peters was a real Egyptologist who later became a prolific author, including historical mysteries called the Amelia Peabody series. But Bart must have too much scholarly reading to do, because I'm surprised he hasn't seen many of these books, because this genre of thrillers has been gaining ground for some time now. Besides Dan Brown, there's James Rollins, Daniel Silva, and Steve Berry just a few among many who you seen frequently on the bookstore and library shelves in this category, and the titles seem to be increasing. And that's just the fiction books!
Dr. Ehrman is LISTENING
Thats also why this video is crap
In all the court TV I have watched, cases big and small, I have never seen anyone swear "on the bible" in a US court. But I suppose the fact that people think this is what happens, makes the point about the importance of the bible in US culture.
I really enjoyed this. Thanks, both!
To me, it seems that this genre is some kind of Rumpelstiltskin story, where one person has to call the right name, and there is nothing Rumpelstiltskin can do than to give up. Instead of Rumpelstiltskin, we have Christianity, and instead of knowing the right name, we have the right book, as Christianity is a book religion. This one name, this one book, this one ring is the magical item that would give its bearer infinite power, if only he or she can get hold of it.
A lot of people are prone to fall for such magical thinking. Sovereign citizens for instance believe that they just have to cite that one (real or imagined) law, and then there is nothing the feds can do to them.
In reality, the existing bible is already so full of contradictions right now, that finding a new book of the bible will do nothing at all, except getting some people rightfully or less rightfully excited.
A fascinating talk. I remember reading The Word as a kid, which was about the discovery of a new gospel, and a very good thriller. I think they may have made a movie if it as well. Good fun that makes you think.
It's not a Bible thriller, but my favorite novel about Jesus is "Man of Nazareth", by Anthony Burgess.
I watched an old mythvision video with Elaine Pagels. Fun to hear her mention you.😉
Elaine pagels is one of the goated bible scholars her books are great and super influential
Intelligent discussion. Enjoyed it very much. This is why I subscribe.
Interesting talk. However I don't really understand why Dan Brown's ' the da Vinci code ' doesn't fit this genre ? . The Da Vinci code seems to have all the ingredients he mentioned : .Secret heretical knowledge ,conspiracy, worldwide chase, Vatican assassins. the Da Vinci code seems like a perfect example of a' gospel thriller ' to me . Especially because Dan Brown's novel launched a hype that produced dozens upon dozens similar stories. I remember how bookstores were filled with books having titles like 'The Judas enigma ' The Dante conspiracy, ... etc,etc,etc. 😅
Same here. His criteria could have been in the books description.
@@jamiegallier2106 Right ? Not including Dan Brown (and all his clones) sounds a bit random
Judges administer the oath as “do you swear or affirm that you will tell the truth etc” no mention of god or the bible
I read one from the genre, called The Word, by Irving Wallace. It was terrible, but a potboiler, to be sure.
I remember the TV mini series, staring Ben Gezera. (Oops, it was David Janssen-a different 60s TV actor.)
Wallace, " The World "
Maier, " Pontius Pilate"
Graves " King Jesus"
. are examples of Gospel Thtillers.
Excellent episode. Thanks!
Robert M. Price wrote a book called, The Paperback Apocalypse wherein he goes over End Times novels. I haven't read, but he's generally an entertaining writer if a bit dopey about politics.
"The Name of the Rose" by Umberto Eco, a densely written Medieval historical-murder-mystery-religious philosophy, is very interesting, "Cadfael"-like. If you strip out ALL that unending complex religious history and philosophy, like the movie and mini-series did, to get at the core story of the murder mystery, it is much better in my opinion (heavy slogging for us non-intellectuals otherwise). Not particularly Bible-centered or church foundation-rocking, though; just abbey-rocking.
He also wrote Foucault's Pendulum, which is closer to the mark, though it's more focused on the conspiracy theory side of it than the thriller. Kind of like Dan Brown later did, but actual literature. :)
Well drat. The whole time I was listening I kept waiting for a 'this is the best one' so I could go check it out. The genre sounds interesting to me 😅
Fascinating guest!! And it's nice having 50min + of program rather than the usual 25-30min.
@Cometkazie - The vast majority of Dr Ehrman's videos are between 45 and 70ish minutes long. The debates and lectures featuring him on other sites are always well over an hour. It is only when he is a guest on other channels (like 'Gutsick Gibbon' and 'Religion for Breakfast', for example) that the interviews / conversations may be shorter. Are you sure that you have been watching Dr Ehrman's 'Misquoting Jesus' videos and not other channels?
@@MossyMozart I'm watching Misquoting Jesus on Bart's channel. I am referring to the time that he is addressing the topic, not talking to Megan, not advertising courses, and not answering questions from the audience. In this MJ he talked with his guest the whole time, >50min. Nice talking to another fan of Bart!
Dr Price produced something of the kind with Secret Scrolls 10 years ago...and also v entertaining
The Passover Plot was a interesting rabbit hole when i was in college.
I found *The Passover Plot* (1965) by British author Hugh J. Schonfield interesting, too. It has a silly framing narrative about an ancient scroll being found, and then lost again, I think, but the main part of the book straightforwardly argues, among other things, that Jesus was intentionally trying to fulfill the ancient prophecies pertaining to the Messiah as a means of becoming the Messiah. Schonfield, incidentally, was enough of a Biblical scholar to publish his own New Testament translation. More influential for me was *The Death of Jesus* (1963) by Joel Carmichael, which seemed to me to demonstrate that the Christian movement/religion could have come out of Jesus' death without any supernatural or divine forces necessarily being involved. I've often wondered if Bart has read these books, and if so, what he thinks of their arguments.
I really liked "Lamb. The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal".
Yes, its humor and it excels at that, it is hilarious, but it really uses the source material - from the unofficcial (fe.e. childhood gospels), to diverse legends to the craziness of 19th century forgers - in lets say respectful way, while still being highly creative.
The "begats" stop most people in their tracks! That's why the fundamentalists told me to start with John
I like the Templar Trilogy by Jack Whyte.
Peabody! Elizabeth Peters. The audio was excellent.
Andrew Jacobs has written a book examining the fictional genre that he calls 'gospel thrillers'. He examines the history of the genre and the social forces that lead to it. He analyzes various examples of these thrillers. He and Dr Ehrman's discussion goes beyond the genre to touch on some of the real forged documents that had been peddled to the Christian public over the years. The conversation is enjoyable and fast-paced.
Great interview and sounds like and interesting genre. All fiction starts with "What if?" and I suppose that even for scholars writing papers and books there's an element of "What if?" - what if Matthew was a forgery? What if there was no resurrection? What if Revelation was the ravings of a man on psychedelics?
Last week they said the topic this week was "Why Paul persecuted Christians.". Will that episode be on next week?
Time will tell.
Hope to see Megan back next week.
Not only authors from the USA use this genre for writing books.
"The Magdalene Scrolls" and "The Prophetess" were both written by British auhor Barbara Wood
Can anyone answer this question?
Why is it that a country supposedly built on the principle of separation of church state are we having to put our hand on a Bible to swear an oath of truthfulness in court?
Then you think about James I being the sponsor of the RSV Bible - and all the issues that brings.
30:47 OH MY GOD "WHAT IS ORIENTALIZING?"!? 👀👀👀 My brother in Christ, this dude named Ed wrote a whole book about it!
Now we need a Mike Flanagan adaptation 😂
Another Roadside Attraction, by Tom Robbins?
I liked that book. Assassin Monks, working deep in the Vatican to discover, after an earthquake, the body of Christ -- He did not rise from the dead. But the protagonist's attempt to reveal this to the world by hijacking a rocket, failed.
Just interested in what your opinion(s) are about the writings of Anton Lavey
Paul L. Mayer wrote a very good book called A Skeleton in God's Closet. It's about archeological discoveries in the Holy Land that could put an end to Christianity.
What does "threat" mean beyond, "by beliefs are threatened?"
As they say, the Bible is one of our foundations. There are entire denominations based on interpretations of single verses in it. Nations have claimed it for themselves. Organizations have a lot invested in the ideas they have derived from it. Some aren't too happy about the extra-Biblical texts we do know about. Imagine how they'd react if there were one or more documents from the very early days of Christianity that contradicted everything we (think we) know.
It remains possible for bad actors (like in these books) to influence nefariously the content of it. They could (among other things) bribe enough scholars to cause it to be revised according to their wishes.
The swearing on the bible in U.S. courts is very outdated, even a GIS shows that. There MAY be some courts in the U.S. that have you affirm on a bible, but it's not common practice.
If you are looking for a challenging book about biblical conspiracy's try Umberto Eco's "Foucault's Pendulum"
I am a time traveller, just got here. Bye, I am on my way already
5:35 discussion begins
This guy reminds me of Paul Giamatti.
I’d like to hear more about the idea this is based on the ‘vulnerability’ of the bible in American culture. It seems we’re just going ahead with this discussion and assuming it’s true. It could well be, but sounds a little…speculative?
Not, "at risk" but truly questionable enough to have people really interested in finding the truths, since contradictions abound in the two different books together or each singly called, The Bible".
I picked up a book,.In His Image, the first book of the CHrist CLone Trilogy, about how they clone some samples from the Turin Shroud. It was awful, I could not get more than about 75 pages into it.
Hello, I love your work and speeches. My name is Mohammed, so I am muslim, the things you say translate also in islam, because in Islam we have the quran and the hadith, when I say that hadith translates to speech of the prophet Mohammed, but the quran is also his speech so the problem is that these different teachings in islam is the problem sometimes of the people after he died
I have a good book 📖 idea, about a device we think is a child's toy but really is what powered Atlantis.
51:16 ah, there goes Uncle Bart calling Jesus mythicists conspiracy theorists. I myself am trying to develop possible criticisms of Carrier's work, but none of the ones I've seen so far have been very effective! And I've seen several! And look, I'll give you a big tip! If you want to attack Carrier's thesis or conclusions, you *are* going to have to deal with the Rank-Raglan data! I'm not telling you *how,* but you *do* have to deal with it!
I'm so fast here
That's what she said.
@@twitherspoon8954 As the actress said to the Bishop: "Who asked you to stick your oar in?" :P
@@twitherspoon8954 lol 10/12/26. "You have destroyed yourselves with your endless wars of Gods. Now bow down and worship YOUR BEAST." That's what Xi says.
So hard we try to distinguish the fictional bible, now come the novel..? ¡ 🤦♂️🤲🕋
It was his sled.
39:45 So strange that Andrew should this particular phrasing in a video released on this day. Aron released a clip from a livestream that goes into detail about how phrases like "until this day" have been interpreted in biblical translations over the last few centuries.
Interesting topic.
Just a minor addition: I once read an Italian book in the same vein from 1975: Mario Pomilio "Il Quinto Evangelio" .. there appears to be an English translation "The Fifth Gospel", 2014
As I remember, on the conspiracy side it was very mild, but the general framework looks similar, during WWII an American professor in the armed forces in Germany finds some documents that belonged to a priest, and begins a search through the years, punctuated by correspondence with somebody in the Vatican...
excellent interview & conversation. touches on & integrates so many aspects of modernity & our relationship to the past ... & truth, faith & meaning.
we might appeal to that famous philosopher, Einstein, for help. we exist in a universe of relativity, not absolutism. the Anthropocene is for our times one that uncovers knowledge of uncertainty. it frightens and frees humanity.
The Russians are missing from the story. Very strange!!!
I haven't watched this yet, reacting only on the thumbnail. I assume this is about the New Testament, otherwise it would have been Steven King?
All the Gospels are contemptuous of Judaism. Which one is most contemptuous misses loses the plot.
Can someone inform me why this interview would be interesting ? Unfortunately the info text doesn't let on.
Its crap
@TheSoteriologist - I read the intro and it sounds very interesting to me. I will now watch it.
@@MossyMozart Tell us about it afterwards.
it's about 'Gospel thrillers '. The definition óf the genre is explained within the first 5 minutes of the video .
@@spiritualanarchist8162 They just made this video because they know eachother from early days like they said. Huge crap
People are the problem.
KONTROL PEOPLE. The NEON GAUD -- the Light Bearer -- a sentient machine and comptroller of our currencies with the Plan to Perfect Humanity - will be unveiled at the Great Re-Set on September 23rd 2026, the autumn equinox of the US' and the illuminati's 250th year (1776-2026). YOU WILL BE HAPPY. Fentanyl Euphoria for the MAsses -- FEMA -- inspired by Huxley's SOMA, a synthetic opiate to replace religion, for a Brave New World Order. You WILL Want More -- so do as you're told.
Bart Ehrmn
Not sure why Ehrman identifies mythicism as a conspiracy theory. Mythicism is based on reading the undisputed letter of Paul and the gospels.
If you think that powerful people/interests are misleading the public, that is a conspiracy theory. It doesn't matter what it's based on.
So, in the case for mythicism that would be current NT scholarship? Not sure if this sector is deliberately misleading the public. @@Mac_an_Mheiriceanaigh
@@user-wm4lx5kw1y If someone were to claim that Jesus is a myth and was not a historical figure, that would be the same as claiming that the Christian church (or churches) are misleading the public about Jesus and would therefore be a conspiracy theory. Basically someone claiming Jesus was not real is claiming that Christianity is a conspiracy.
Not a god fit for this channel.
Maybe in a black atheist
however
I might be making shit up. j kitty😂
This video is a absolute waste of time as well as his book
Bart, are you a closeted homosexual? This is why you left your faith.
Are you a closeted idiot? Cause you’re not doing a good job of hiding it.
A couple of times Dr. Jacobs says, ""Men, only men" This is not quite the case. My 'Literature of the Bible' instructor Dr. Silva Lake worked on one of the editions of the critical Greek New Testament in the early 1950s. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silva_Tipple_New_Lake