1.35 Update: Maritime Ideas unlock also the "Thalassocracy" decisision which gives you +1 Merchant, but in 1.35 Domination this also unlocks a UNIQUE TIER 8 GOV. REFORM which gives you access to the VERY UNIQUE SUBJECT TYPE of "Trade Protectorates"... and with them you won`t have ANY issues with money ever again :) Also in 1.35 there is a unique Tier 1 Monarchy Reform that is unlocked with Maritime (or Naval) ideas, which is called "Admirality" and lets your Monarchy change into a true Admirality governed Nation!
@@Stroopenwaffle If you counteract the state governing cost malus with statehouses then that would really help pirate republic Knights, they would have a very high naval force limit depending on province number and local autonomy, diplo development. Also war against the world being imperialism early.
I personally love playing countries such as Norway & Portugal, and while I don't like Colonization (ironic for a Portugal/Norway player) I adore Naval Warfare and Marines. Norway especially in the new DLC has overpowered marines, with buffs making them even better than normal infantry. Something also to note is that if you pair Maritime + Marines and then later Diplo Tech 22, you can perpetually keep armies anywhere around the globe without owning any tiles. Its not really useful, but its pretty funny in casual MP.
One thing you missed is that naval maintenance is directly proportional to ship cost, so that ship cost -10% idea is a multiplicative 10% reduction in naval maintenance cost.
Very interesting analysis! I really enjoyed your video :D 1 thing I want to point out is that tradepower propagation only gives you trade power upstream (e.g. if you are in English Channel then in Lübeck) equal to 20% of the amount of your provincial trade power in the downstream node. Now with ship tradepower propagation, as stated on the wiki: "If a country has a ship tradepower propagation modifier also a corresponding part of the ship trade power is added to the provincial trade power. E.g. with +20% ship tradepower propagation 20% × 20% = 4% of ship trade power is also added to upstream node." So with 25% ship tradepower propagation only 5% worth of your trade power from ships in the node is going to go upstream. Side note: forming malaya, taking maritime ideas, becoming a pirate republic, and taking the bonus from the age of reformation you can get up to 90%(20%+25%+25%+20%) of ship tradepower propagation which gives you 18%(90% x 20%) of additonal trade power upstream. The 50% of additional naval forcelimit is very strong (even better when combined with expansion for additional +33% from policy) especially when you consider you can get many strategic trade goods bonuses from using ships in desired trade nodes, however when I was looking to maximize shipbuilding time (still hoping they add a modifier/mission to Venice for this cause that's what venice arsenal was all about) I've noticed that taking naval and mercenary with trade you can get to +66% ship trade power form ideas alone which isn't as good as simply mustering a larger navy, but still pretty substantial for smaller merchant republics.
There is a reason why UA-camrs tend to hide this idea group, but naval and maritime have been excellent ideas recently for if you want to rival or play as Great Britain or Japan eventually
Quick math correction: When the blockade is +50% more effective, you need -33% less ships, not -50%. Why? Suppose you have to block d development, one ship Blocks x develpoment. Then n is a number of ships needed. n=d/x With +50% blockade, d/1,5x=0,66n
Sure, I forgot that positive efficiency is worse that negative (obviously you are right... if a ship is +50% more effective than 2 ships are as effictive than 3 were before: 2/3 needed so 1/3 less)
+100% naval tradition from protecting trade applies to privateering too, so pirate players get that sweet sweet naval tradition up real fast. Ship trade power propagation also affects privateers. Taking maritime and naval allows even an opm pirate island to dominate any inland sea. Highly recommend a pirate island-only campaign starting in the Mediterranean. Unless there is a strait, people can do literally nothing to stop you from yoinking their islands. Even with just half the Mediterranean islands, a pirate with these ideas completed can sink Great Britain's entire navy with just galleys and light ships. Its easy to meme on maritime and naval ideas - but that is because of how situational they are - if navies are your main form of combat - they are potentially overpowered.
For some reason everyone forgets that this idea group unlocks enlist privateers decision, which gives you something like +25% privateer efficiency(which is nice) and 75% embargo efficiency and omg it can do wonders for your trade, all this stuff for a minute debuff to relations improving.
Marines can be really powerful i did a memish playhtrough of norway -> england -> back to scandinavia and grabbed the english bonuses and then after becoming norwegian their combat bonuses. amrines were then basically like the specialized troops other countries get (tercios, janissaries and such) i even ended up ditching marine reform for drill one and they were just beasts. Sailors for frontline and manpower for artillery. Was quite fun campaign
I tend to prefer Norway not only because of its insane ideas which inflates its sailor pool, strengthens its navy, gives it a colonist and lots of economic/trade buffs as well as a minor discipline/prestige buff, and +33% colonial range as well as the ability to recruit explorers and conquistadors without ever needing to spec into exploration or confirm thalassocracy, but also because Norway's mission tree inflates the sailor pool even further, increases the quality of Norway's marines and also upgrades its unique navy doctrine which makes marines even more viable. The mission tree also gives lots of other good buffs such as dev cost reduction in hills and mountains through a unique burgher policy, temporary bonuses that help with trade and colonization (as well as the ability to spawn trade centers in some provinces), but coolest of all also the ability to spawn a gold mine in a province that historically had silver in it, which greatly helps with the whole colonization effort. One of the missions of Norway also discovers Greenland and its coast for free as well as giving Norway two free siberian frontiers there meaning colonial range will never be an issue for Norway. I don't know if this is standard or not, but is it normal to get advisors that increases colonial range, because Norway gets one of those for -75% cost reduction.
Currently im playing a hansa game with only a bunch of tall states. All coastal and all center of trade lvl 3. Im also naval hegemon and the amount of sailors you can stack with all the boni you mentioned is completely bonkers. I played hansa quite a bit before, and tried to buff mercenaries in one game which was absolutely total garbage.
Forgot to note that taking either maritime or naval allows the decision for confirming a thalassocracy if you manipulate some trade nodes as well, +.25 navy tradition per year, +1 merchant, -5% diplo tech cost and -10% light ship cost is nothing to scoff at.
Yes I have metioned it in a recent video where I am talking about the Maritime Meta of 1.35 colonization... But this just makes my points in this video even more valid as the Thalossocracy has a own gov. Reform and unique trade protectorates subjects mechanic. Maritime is even better right now
Ship tradepower propagation is NOT ship tradepower. The latter is very strong, but unfortunately maritime ideas give tradepower propagation which is mostly useless. Marines are extremely usefull for costal nations and are often overlooked, I agree.
Actually I may have got that a little wrong explained im the video because it is not the same modifier. BUT it lets you have provincial trade power through your light ships(with this modifier its 25% of the ship trade power) which means that you get way more influence in the trade node even if its not the same modifier as "ship trade power". And on top of that this gives you also more trade power in all the upstream trade nodes as well(as it is counted as "provincial trade power") which makes this modifier actually really usefull for that matter.
@@thestudentYT "BUT it lets you have provincial trade power through your light ships(with this modifier its 25% of the ship trade power) " - I might be wrong, but I dont think you get provincial trade power in the trade node your trade ships are in? Only upstream, and if the wiki is correct thats only 20% x tradepower propagation x trade power from light ships (so 5% of the ship trade power in each upstream node). Edit: I cant test this rn, I am curious.
Tested this and the wiki is correct. X% of the ship trade power is added to the provincial trade power for propagation purposes only. Basically what this means is that 25% propagation from the idea results in 5% ship trade power propagating to every upstream node. In that sense it’s like you’ve gained 5% more trade power on your ships times the number of upstream nodes (so 20% if you protect in English Channel) but with the caveat that there’s no difference in the node you’re actually protecting. Also during testing I found out that the admiral trade power bonus is multiplicative with any global ship trade power modifiers. Stick a fat maneuver admiral on trade power fleets when you can.
at 5:10 "you need 50% less ships, because your ships are 50% stronger". That is wrong, you need 33% less ships. To get to 50%, you would need to be 100% stronger.
Ship tradepower propagation is not as good as you think it is. Propagation is the operative word here. It is an increase to the very small portion of tradepower that gets propagated upstream by having trade fleets protecting **subsequent** trade nodes. For example, if you are protecting trade in all the trade nodes between Phillippines and Zanzibar (7 subsequent nodes) and you use 25 light ships in each, there is NO extra modifier in Phillippines. Propagation is added as 2.5% more trade power in Moluccas because you have ships also in Philippines, and this now turns into 2.75% instead which is almost nothing. In Malacca it turns into 2.88% until eventually you get to Zanzibar where you maybe end up with 6% instead of 4%. It's not a good modifier because if the chain is broken it starts from scratch in the next node. And most people don't have a big dedicated trade fleet in every successive trade node in a chain.
I would argue that Naval is better than Maritime since it also offers marines force limit and have (in my own opinion...) better ideas and for sure better policies. But the problem with these idea groups is not that they are bad. It's that they are situational. And so much that you would only take them for the meme. I dare to say I don't recall having taken them, ever, in 5 years. Yet I have achieved many WC and done most of the achievements. It's just that if I have the choice between them and Diplo or Religious... Well, I won't take them... In order to take them, I would need something directly helping me. For example I'm doing a chill Bengal-Hindustan run where I plan to own India+East Indies. I opened up with trade (mainly to test a second time your Spain 1571 goods produced maxing out stuff..) and I followed with Aristocratic. The policy is not great, but it gives me a lot of direct bonus that will help me. Dev cost, CCA, a diplomat (very helpful), siege pips, Equilibrium +10% to 2 estates (Emirs and Rajputs)... I really don't see how (even if I have a huge coastline and will fight a lot around sea) Naval or Maritime would help more in this run. -- Great video though. Always informative and interesting to watch!
Yes but it is also a military idea group so it is situational if Naval or Maritime is better, although Maritime is for sure better for trade income and the 50% more Naval force limit together with the 50% Sailors modifier alone makes Maritime in most of the cases more valueable than naval ideas... after all it is the quantity of your navy and the income that will win you more wars than saving 50 mil points on forts.
Trade steering increases the money that gets into a trade node if that money is steered out again. Sadly that modifier is quite small so that if you have +100% trade steering modifier the trade value is increased by +10% for every trade node that it flows through. So trade steering is only better than trade power if you have a large trade network that you control by a very large portion already(so more in the mid- to lategame)
@@thestudentYT Yep, base is 5% and every 20% trade steering gets you an extra 1% trade value. This is ofc besides allowing you to better contest upstream nodes where multiple people are steering trade.
Nah, its good 4 navy (even then you'll only need it for mp), but if you say its TOP tier then you're compareing it to diplo, admin, religious and in terms of conquest those give you mutch better bonuses
Are you sure? What I didn't say is that Maritime also unlocks the Thalassocracy decision which give a merchant and some naval stuff but it also gives you a unique Tier 8 (I think) gov. Reform also called "Thalassocracy" which gives you even more naval stuff and marines bonus AND it allowes you to create "Trade Protectorates" subject types which are one of the most overpowered subjects you can have (they give you infinite trade income basically)... And the new Tier 5 Reform for Marines gives thd Marines a modifier called "Regiment Manpower Usage -20%" which makes using marines badically even more efficient than manpower troops (with maritime you would have crazy amounts of sailors). And it can give you a unique Tier 1 Monarchy Reform "Admirality" which is not strong but nice to have... All in all it is still only situational strong (if you have a lot of coast line and if you play overseas/colonial gameplay) but that is exactly the same for all the other idea groups: If I play tall, economic/infrastructure is top tier but if I play wide its just not... If I play wide, diplomatic/admin is top tier but if I play tall its just not... If I play with vassals imfluence is top tier but if I don't then its just not... You get the point I think so that is that for every idea group.
@@thestudentYT oh yes I forgot to mention, thasselocracy imo isn not THAT worth is, and is def not worth it form me personally becouse of my playstyle,but here is why I think it isnt as good as you think: 1: The base bonuses are good, but other reforms of this tier give similat ones, so imo the big important one is the +25% naval force limit which is good, but if u have maritime u probably don't need it becouse heavy ship combat ability is usually enough to win with a high manuver admiral 2: This is a repubic reform, they are certanly not bad, but if someone wants to stay a monarcy (for PUs or specific reforms like Austrian monacy for ex.) its not a factor 3: I think saying trade protectorates are OP is a huge overstatement. They can't be annexed (very big), can declare independence without war (they only get a -1 stab hit) and they don't join your wars. At this point they aren't even a subject... more like protectorates worked irl 4: Also I've found it hard to get any meaningful amount of the goods produced and global trade power stacked, this might be a personal thing though, as the AI usually doesent accept it 5: And personally i think trade power is a bit overrated, becouse to put it simply its actually more profitable to collect everywhere, yes I'm not trolling, just take a very simple trade chain: Node A has 5 ducats of value and you have 50% power Node B has 5 ducats as well and 50% power Node C has 5 ducats and 50% as well (500/1000 power) C goes to B goes to A and then from A you collect 100% as it goes to your main node that should be ~100% power If you transfer 2.5 form C to B that makes B have 7.5 ducts then you can transfer 50% of that to then transfer 3.75 ducats to main which is then collected If you just collected everywhere you'd get a -50% multiplicative reduction so 500-250/1000-250 = 250/750 = 33% power So you'd collect 3*0.33*5 = 5 ducats (yes transfering increases TP in the main node but its basicly 100% anyway, or atleast should be, also yes trade steering I know, but for that to make you even 15% profit you need a looong chain like 7 nodes long that ALL have 73%-90% TP depending on what your steering modifier is and my point is that unless you kick other nations out of a node aka.conquer its VERY hard to get over 75% power in a node not to mention 90%) The point I want to make is that the only reason transferring would be better is becouse you can get increased profits fom steering but for that you need a long and powerful chain, if its below 90% power the steering only negates the money lost to the node unless its very high Tl,dr if you have a ~7 node long chain with ~85% power its worth transferring, otherwise colleting makes you more as it doesent reduce power as mutch as peole think -50% multiplicative doesent make 50% power into 25% only 33%
I don't see it at all. your average adjusted battle roll is a 7.5 (4.5 on the dice, and you get a static 3 added). Reducing that by 1, is taking about 13% more damage, or dealing about 13% less. But I don't know about you, but I almost never take crossing penalties when it matters, AT ALL, because that's a big penalty. So taking 10% more damage in the more important early phase, is a BIG DEAL. Trying to clutch out a fight with sailors is not gonna work, when land combat is a grindy affair of roughly evenly matched sides. Blockading is also not hard. this is because shipyards exist. A 10 dev province gives you one naval force limit, and a caravel can blockade 10 dev of costal provinces... but that neglects an admiral, the static "just for existing" force limit countries get, and forgets the shipyard. Shipyards skew things massively in favor of the attacker, because they make a 10 dev coastal province effectively 30 dev for the purpose of blockading the enemy. This is a huge disparity. The game is already rigged in favor of the blockading working, you don't need help to blockade. Especially because blockade efficiency scales with navy tradition. Next, sheltered ports is just trash. you get absurd numbers of sailors. A 10 dev coastal province gives you 3 force limit and 5 sailors a month. But 3 caravels only cost you 3 sailors per month, and this neglects that this only scales in your favor with higher dev costal provinces, and that centers of trade give you more sailor modifiers. and of course, sailor recovery scales with, you guessed it, navy tradition. If you don't run marines, you will not run out of sailors. Seahawks is neat, but I just don't find single player, I need admirals that badly, and while I love more leaders, an idea that just says "1 leader without upkeep" would be terrible. A policy that gives you 1 diplomat and 1 leader without upkeep is a disappointment for me (diplomatic-aristocracy). I have always found being caught with ships is a function of dropped micro, not movement speed. Nonissue to me. Also, there is an oppportunity cost here. If you are taking the idea for marines, why not take another idea group to fight harder? like say, offensive? +1 shock, +1 fire? that's like a crossing bonus that ALWAYS APPLIES, even on defense. But you also get siege ability and discipline. Or defensive. I would argue 10% infantry combat ability is just flat out better than an idea that lets you build marines, and that's the FIRST IDEA, not the entire group. Marines may be better than useless, but you aren't giving up nothing to get them. You are giving up an entire idea group, to get something that quality and offensive ideas compete directly with and do a MUCH better job. In short, I like doubling the resting point of naval tradition from 40 to 80 a lot, especially because it's so hard to get naval tradition from other sources. But that's not an idea group, that's a single good idea. Marines may be useful in multiplayer, but I have never encountered a situation where they were worth even considering in single player.
roleplay idea, in general not good since depending on situations it aint good at any point in a campaign, if you lack sailors, just conquer more coastal provinces and at that point you will more likely fight on a continent and need a real military and not some budget stuff from the other manpower pool
its good, but never top tier. if you say its top tier youre comparing it to diplo, offensive and innovative, three of which are far superior. i'd give maritime a low A~high B. the stronger reason being its useless for many nations and even when its useful, there are more priorities is most cases (unless youre like, So and is stacking as many navy modifiers you can).
This is your opinion but I can just say to you to just try it out and play the netherlands for example and change exploration to maritime and I bet that you'll feel the top tier power of maritime :)
@@thestudentYT yes but try bohemia with maritime ideas i think a top tier idea group should be at least decent no matter which country, as the ones i've said
@@rimanpele I am 100% sure that all of the idea groups that you mentioned espiecially innovative are also only good if they fit into the country you play and into the type of gameplay you have. So as I also said in the video: Maritime is only top tier if you have a decent percentage of your country as coastline but in my understanding this can still be top tier as every idea group is ONLY top tier if they fit to your country and your gameplay goals!
Ich arbeite an meinem Englisch auch durch diese Videos... also sorry wenn es anstrengend für dich ist aber ich kann realistisch gesehen nicht einfach auf deutsch wechseln (und will das auch nicht), wenns dich zu sehr stört kann ich dir gerade nur anbieten die Videos nicht mehr zu gucken bis mein Englisch besser geworden ist. Freut mich aber, dass dir der Inhalt gefällt.
1.35 Update: Maritime Ideas unlock also the "Thalassocracy" decisision which gives you +1 Merchant, but in 1.35 Domination this also unlocks a UNIQUE TIER 8 GOV. REFORM which gives you access to the VERY UNIQUE SUBJECT TYPE of "Trade Protectorates"... and with them you won`t have ANY issues with money ever again :)
Also in 1.35 there is a unique Tier 1 Monarchy Reform that is unlocked with Maritime (or Naval) ideas, which is called "Admirality" and lets your Monarchy change into a true Admirality governed Nation!
Between the pronairs of byz gov and the admiral gov from maritime, which would be betyer? Doing naval byz run.
This could be really good with the Knights Hospitaller. They can stack sailors far over natural limit with raiding everywhere every ten years.
Or as a pirate republic , it would help every bit of sailors and marines it can produces
@@Stroopenwaffle If you counteract the state governing cost malus with statehouses then that would really help pirate republic Knights, they would have a very high naval force limit depending on province number and local autonomy, diplo development. Also war against the world being imperialism early.
I personally love playing countries such as Norway & Portugal, and while I don't like Colonization (ironic for a Portugal/Norway player) I adore Naval Warfare and Marines. Norway especially in the new DLC has overpowered marines, with buffs making them even better than normal infantry.
Something also to note is that if you pair Maritime + Marines and then later Diplo Tech 22, you can perpetually keep armies anywhere around the globe without owning any tiles. Its not really useful, but its pretty funny in casual MP.
I would say my favorite part of maritime ideas is pretty much the automatic repair at sea, it allows perpetual blockades without worrying.
One thing you missed is that naval maintenance is directly proportional to ship cost, so that ship cost -10% idea is a multiplicative 10% reduction in naval maintenance cost.
Yes you are right this modifier is just a nice one to help you a little bit to maintain the +50% bigger navy though.
Very interesting analysis! I really enjoyed your video :D
1 thing I want to point out is that tradepower propagation only gives you trade power upstream (e.g. if you are in English Channel then in Lübeck) equal to 20% of the amount of your provincial trade power in the downstream node.
Now with ship tradepower propagation, as stated on the wiki:
"If a country has a ship tradepower propagation modifier also a corresponding part of the ship trade power is added to the provincial trade power. E.g. with +20% ship tradepower propagation 20% × 20% = 4% of ship trade power is also added to upstream node."
So with 25% ship tradepower propagation only 5% worth of your trade power from ships in the node is going to go upstream.
Side note: forming malaya, taking maritime ideas, becoming a pirate republic, and taking the bonus from the age of reformation you can get up to 90%(20%+25%+25%+20%) of ship tradepower propagation which gives you 18%(90% x 20%) of additonal trade power upstream.
The 50% of additional naval forcelimit is very strong (even better when combined with expansion for additional +33% from policy) especially when you consider you can get many strategic trade goods bonuses from using ships in desired trade nodes, however
when I was looking to maximize shipbuilding time (still hoping they add a modifier/mission to Venice for this cause that's what venice arsenal was all about) I've noticed that taking naval and mercenary with trade you can get to +66% ship trade power form ideas alone which isn't as good as simply mustering a larger navy, but still pretty substantial for smaller merchant republics.
There is a reason why UA-camrs tend to hide this idea group, but naval and maritime have been excellent ideas recently for if you want to rival or play as Great Britain or Japan eventually
It is a good idea, but you should take idea's based on when they are the most useful. It doesn't really fill any time
Just found your channel. Great stuff man
Quick math correction:
When the blockade is +50% more effective, you need -33% less ships, not -50%.
Why? Suppose you have to block d development, one ship Blocks x develpoment. Then n is a number of ships needed. n=d/x
With +50% blockade, d/1,5x=0,66n
Sure, I forgot that positive efficiency is worse that negative (obviously you are right... if a ship is +50% more effective than 2 ships are as effictive than 3 were before: 2/3 needed so 1/3 less)
+100% naval tradition from protecting trade applies to privateering too, so pirate players get that sweet sweet naval tradition up real fast. Ship trade power propagation also affects privateers.
Taking maritime and naval allows even an opm pirate island to dominate any inland sea. Highly recommend a pirate island-only campaign starting in the Mediterranean. Unless there is a strait, people can do literally nothing to stop you from yoinking their islands. Even with just half the Mediterranean islands, a pirate with these ideas completed can sink Great Britain's entire navy with just galleys and light ships. Its easy to meme on maritime and naval ideas - but that is because of how situational they are - if navies are your main form of combat - they are potentially overpowered.
Yes the two naval ideas are definetly the best choices for pirate republics!
Inno lol
For some reason everyone forgets that this idea group unlocks enlist privateers decision, which gives you something like +25% privateer efficiency(which is nice) and 75% embargo efficiency and omg it can do wonders for your trade, all this stuff for a minute debuff to relations improving.
Marines can be really powerful i did a memish playhtrough of norway -> england -> back to scandinavia and grabbed the english bonuses and then after becoming norwegian their combat bonuses. amrines were then basically like the specialized troops other countries get (tercios, janissaries and such) i even ended up ditching marine reform for drill one and they were just beasts. Sailors for frontline and manpower for artillery. Was quite fun campaign
I tend to prefer Norway not only because of its insane ideas which inflates its sailor pool, strengthens its navy, gives it a colonist and lots of economic/trade buffs as well as a minor discipline/prestige buff, and +33% colonial range as well as the ability to recruit explorers and conquistadors without ever needing to spec into exploration or confirm thalassocracy, but also because Norway's mission tree inflates the sailor pool even further, increases the quality of Norway's marines and also upgrades its unique navy doctrine which makes marines even more viable. The mission tree also gives lots of other good buffs such as dev cost reduction in hills and mountains through a unique burgher policy, temporary bonuses that help with trade and colonization (as well as the ability to spawn trade centers in some provinces), but coolest of all also the ability to spawn a gold mine in a province that historically had silver in it, which greatly helps with the whole colonization effort. One of the missions of Norway also discovers Greenland and its coast for free as well as giving Norway two free siberian frontiers there meaning colonial range will never be an issue for Norway.
I don't know if this is standard or not, but is it normal to get advisors that increases colonial range, because Norway gets one of those for -75% cost reduction.
Currently im playing a hansa game with only a bunch of tall states. All coastal and all center of trade lvl 3. Im also naval hegemon and the amount of sailors you can stack with all the boni you mentioned is completely bonkers. I played hansa quite a bit before, and tried to buff mercenaries in one game which was absolutely total garbage.
Forgot to note that taking either maritime or naval allows the decision for confirming a thalassocracy if you manipulate some trade nodes as well, +.25 navy tradition per year, +1 merchant, -5% diplo tech cost and -10% light ship cost is nothing to scoff at.
Yes I have metioned it in a recent video where I am talking about the Maritime Meta of 1.35 colonization...
But this just makes my points in this video even more valid as the Thalossocracy has a own gov. Reform and unique trade protectorates subjects mechanic. Maritime is even better right now
German accent? This guy probably has some serious knowledge to drop
Haha I hope so xd
Makes sense great vid
Ship tradepower propagation is NOT ship tradepower. The latter is very strong, but unfortunately maritime ideas give tradepower propagation which is mostly useless.
Marines are extremely usefull for costal nations and are often overlooked, I agree.
Actually I may have got that a little wrong explained im the video because it is not the same modifier. BUT it lets you have provincial trade power through your light ships(with this modifier its 25% of the ship trade power) which means that you get way more influence in the trade node even if its not the same modifier as "ship trade power". And on top of that this gives you also more trade power in all the upstream trade nodes as well(as it is counted as "provincial trade power") which makes this modifier actually really usefull for that matter.
@@thestudentYT "BUT it lets you have provincial trade power through your light ships(with this modifier its 25% of the ship trade power) " - I might be wrong, but I dont think you get provincial trade power in the trade node your trade ships are in? Only upstream, and if the wiki is correct thats only 20% x tradepower propagation x trade power from light ships (so 5% of the ship trade power in each upstream node). Edit: I cant test this rn, I am curious.
Tested this and the wiki is correct. X% of the ship trade power is added to the provincial trade power for propagation purposes only.
Basically what this means is that 25% propagation from the idea results in 5% ship trade power propagating to every upstream node. In that sense it’s like you’ve gained 5% more trade power on your ships times the number of upstream nodes (so 20% if you protect in English Channel) but with the caveat that there’s no difference in the node you’re actually protecting.
Also during testing I found out that the admiral trade power bonus is multiplicative with any global ship trade power modifiers. Stick a fat maneuver admiral on trade power fleets when you can.
at 5:10 "you need 50% less ships, because your ships are 50% stronger". That is wrong, you need 33% less ships. To get to 50%, you would need to be 100% stronger.
Exactly
See! I knew there was a reason I actually liked maritime.
Ship tradepower propagation is not as good as you think it is. Propagation is the operative word here. It is an increase to the very small portion of tradepower that gets propagated upstream by having trade fleets protecting **subsequent** trade nodes. For example, if you are protecting trade in all the trade nodes between Phillippines and Zanzibar (7 subsequent nodes) and you use 25 light ships in each, there is NO extra modifier in Phillippines. Propagation is added as 2.5% more trade power in Moluccas because you have ships also in Philippines, and this now turns into 2.75% instead which is almost nothing. In Malacca it turns into 2.88% until eventually you get to Zanzibar where you maybe end up with 6% instead of 4%. It's not a good modifier because if the chain is broken it starts from scratch in the next node. And most people don't have a big dedicated trade fleet in every successive trade node in a chain.
And now you've finally got some small point where you can now proudly say: "Maritime is Bad!"
This is not relevant at all Imo...
@@thestudentYT I didn't say maritime is bad. I corrected one minor misconception but it's still a good idea group.
@@Vinterloft In that case thank you for telling me!
But I actually noticed this mistake already shortly after the video came out :)
I would argue that Naval is better than Maritime since it also offers marines force limit and have (in my own opinion...) better ideas and for sure better policies.
But the problem with these idea groups is not that they are bad. It's that they are situational. And so much that you would only take them for the meme. I dare to say I don't recall having taken them, ever, in 5 years. Yet I have achieved many WC and done most of the achievements. It's just that if I have the choice between them and Diplo or Religious... Well, I won't take them...
In order to take them, I would need something directly helping me.
For example I'm doing a chill Bengal-Hindustan run where I plan to own India+East Indies. I opened up with trade (mainly to test a second time your Spain 1571 goods produced maxing out stuff..) and I followed with Aristocratic.
The policy is not great, but it gives me a lot of direct bonus that will help me. Dev cost, CCA, a diplomat (very helpful), siege pips, Equilibrium +10% to 2 estates (Emirs and Rajputs)...
I really don't see how (even if I have a huge coastline and will fight a lot around sea) Naval or Maritime would help more in this run.
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Great video though. Always informative and interesting to watch!
My favorite region to play is in South east Asia and Naval idea is a most in the early game to get free barrage and to deal with larger navy forces
Yes but it is also a military idea group so it is situational if Naval or Maritime is better, although Maritime is for sure better for trade income and the 50% more Naval force limit together with the 50% Sailors modifier alone makes Maritime in most of the cases more valueable than naval ideas... after all it is the quantity of your navy and the income that will win you more wars than saving 50 mil points on forts.
Chad Maritime Enjoyer
I take it as Naples, makes my life easier
How does the Trade Stearing modifier work?
Trade power modifiers seem so much stronger.
Trade steering increases the money that gets into a trade node if that money is steered out again. Sadly that modifier is quite small so that if you have +100% trade steering modifier the trade value is increased by +10% for every trade node that it flows through. So trade steering is only better than trade power if you have a large trade network that you control by a very large portion already(so more in the mid- to lategame)
@@thestudentYT Great answer. Thanks.
@@thestudentYT Yep, base is 5% and every 20% trade steering gets you an extra 1% trade value. This is ofc besides allowing you to better contest upstream nodes where multiple people are steering trade.
Cries in world conquest :(.
Nah, its good 4 navy (even then you'll only need it for mp), but if you say its TOP tier then you're compareing it to diplo, admin, religious and in terms of conquest those give you mutch better bonuses
Are you sure?
What I didn't say is that Maritime also unlocks the Thalassocracy decision which give a merchant and some naval stuff but it also gives you a unique Tier 8 (I think) gov. Reform also called "Thalassocracy" which gives you even more naval stuff and marines bonus AND it allowes you to create "Trade Protectorates" subject types which are one of the most overpowered subjects you can have (they give you infinite trade income basically)...
And the new Tier 5 Reform for Marines gives thd Marines a modifier called "Regiment Manpower Usage -20%" which makes using marines badically even more efficient than manpower troops (with maritime you would have crazy amounts of sailors).
And it can give you a unique Tier 1 Monarchy Reform "Admirality" which is not strong but nice to have...
All in all it is still only situational strong (if you have a lot of coast line and if you play overseas/colonial gameplay) but that is exactly the same for all the other idea groups: If I play tall, economic/infrastructure is top tier but if I play wide its just not...
If I play wide, diplomatic/admin is top tier but if I play tall its just not...
If I play with vassals imfluence is top tier but if I don't then its just not...
You get the point I think so that is that for every idea group.
@@thestudentYT oh yes I forgot to mention, thasselocracy imo isn not THAT worth is, and is def not worth it form me personally becouse of my playstyle,but here is why I think it isnt as good as you think:
1: The base bonuses are good, but other reforms of this tier give similat ones, so imo the big important one is the +25% naval force limit which is good, but if u have maritime u probably don't need it becouse heavy ship combat ability is usually enough to win with a high manuver admiral
2: This is a repubic reform, they are certanly not bad, but if someone wants to stay a monarcy (for PUs or specific reforms like Austrian monacy for ex.) its not a factor
3: I think saying trade protectorates are OP is a huge overstatement. They can't be annexed (very big), can declare independence without war (they only get a -1 stab hit) and they don't join your wars. At this point they aren't even a subject... more like protectorates worked irl
4: Also I've found it hard to get any meaningful amount of the goods produced and global trade power stacked, this might be a personal thing though, as the AI usually doesent accept it
5: And personally i think trade power is a bit overrated, becouse to put it simply its actually more profitable to collect everywhere, yes I'm not trolling, just take a very simple trade chain:
Node A has 5 ducats of value and you have 50% power
Node B has 5 ducats as well and 50% power
Node C has 5 ducats and 50% as well (500/1000 power)
C goes to B goes to A and then from A you collect 100% as it goes to your main node that should be ~100% power
If you transfer 2.5 form C to B that makes B have 7.5 ducts then you can transfer 50% of that to then transfer 3.75 ducats to main which is then collected
If you just collected everywhere you'd get a -50% multiplicative reduction so 500-250/1000-250 = 250/750 = 33% power
So you'd collect 3*0.33*5 = 5 ducats
(yes transfering increases TP in the main node but its basicly 100% anyway, or atleast should be, also yes trade steering I know, but for that to make you even 15% profit you need a looong chain like 7 nodes long that ALL have 73%-90% TP depending on what your steering modifier is and my point is that unless you kick other nations out of a node aka.conquer its VERY hard to get over 75% power in a node not to mention 90%)
The point I want to make is that the only reason transferring would be better is becouse you can get increased profits fom steering but for that you need a long and powerful chain, if its below 90% power the steering only negates the money lost to the node unless its very high
Tl,dr if you have a ~7 node long chain with ~85% power its worth transferring, otherwise colleting makes you more as it doesent reduce power as mutch as peole think -50% multiplicative doesent make 50% power into 25% only 33%
I don't see it at all. your average adjusted battle roll is a 7.5 (4.5 on the dice, and you get a static 3 added). Reducing that by 1, is taking about 13% more damage, or dealing about 13% less.
But I don't know about you, but I almost never take crossing penalties when it matters, AT ALL, because that's a big penalty. So taking 10% more damage in the more important early phase, is a BIG DEAL. Trying to clutch out a fight with sailors is not gonna work, when land combat is a grindy affair of roughly evenly matched sides.
Blockading is also not hard. this is because shipyards exist. A 10 dev province gives you one naval force limit, and a caravel can blockade 10 dev of costal provinces... but that neglects an admiral, the static "just for existing" force limit countries get, and forgets the shipyard. Shipyards skew things massively in favor of the attacker, because they make a 10 dev coastal province effectively 30 dev for the purpose of blockading the enemy. This is a huge disparity. The game is already rigged in favor of the blockading working, you don't need help to blockade. Especially because blockade efficiency scales with navy tradition.
Next, sheltered ports is just trash. you get absurd numbers of sailors. A 10 dev coastal province gives you 3 force limit and 5 sailors a month. But 3 caravels only cost you 3 sailors per month, and this neglects that this only scales in your favor with higher dev costal provinces, and that centers of trade give you more sailor modifiers. and of course, sailor recovery scales with, you guessed it, navy tradition. If you don't run marines, you will not run out of sailors.
Seahawks is neat, but I just don't find single player, I need admirals that badly, and while I love more leaders, an idea that just says "1 leader without upkeep" would be terrible. A policy that gives you 1 diplomat and 1 leader without upkeep is a disappointment for me (diplomatic-aristocracy).
I have always found being caught with ships is a function of dropped micro, not movement speed. Nonissue to me.
Also, there is an oppportunity cost here. If you are taking the idea for marines, why not take another idea group to fight harder? like say, offensive? +1 shock, +1 fire? that's like a crossing bonus that ALWAYS APPLIES, even on defense. But you also get siege ability and discipline. Or defensive. I would argue 10% infantry combat ability is just flat out better than an idea that lets you build marines, and that's the FIRST IDEA, not the entire group.
Marines may be better than useless, but you aren't giving up nothing to get them. You are giving up an entire idea group, to get something that quality and offensive ideas compete directly with and do a MUCH better job.
In short, I like doubling the resting point of naval tradition from 40 to 80 a lot, especially because it's so hard to get naval tradition from other sources. But that's not an idea group, that's a single good idea. Marines may be useful in multiplayer, but I have never encountered a situation where they were worth even considering in single player.
I 100% agree, the opportunity cost is the main thing holding maritime ideas back. Other Idea groups are better in the vast majority of situations.
...Marines are only worth it if you get them for free from missions or national ideas.
roleplay idea, in general not good since depending on situations it aint good at any point in a campaign, if you lack sailors, just conquer more coastal provinces and at that point you will more likely fight on a continent and need a real military and not some budget stuff from the other manpower pool
its good, but never top tier.
if you say its top tier youre comparing it to diplo, offensive and innovative, three of which are far superior.
i'd give maritime a low A~high B. the stronger reason being its useless for many nations and even when its useful, there are more priorities is most cases (unless youre like, So and is stacking as many navy modifiers you can).
This is your opinion but I can just say to you to just try it out and play the netherlands for example and change exploration to maritime and I bet that you'll feel the top tier power of maritime :)
@@thestudentYT yes but try bohemia with maritime ideas
i think a top tier idea group should be at least decent no matter which country, as the ones i've said
@@rimanpele I am 100% sure that all of the idea groups that you mentioned espiecially innovative are also only good if they fit into the country you play and into the type of gameplay you have. So as I also said in the video: Maritime is only top tier if you have a decent percentage of your country as coastline but in my understanding this can still be top tier as every idea group is ONLY top tier if they fit to your country and your gameplay goals!
Eine bescheidene Bitte: arbeite bitte an deinem Englisch oder sprich einfach Deutsch. Es ist sehr anstrengend.
Inhalt ist interessant.
Ich arbeite an meinem Englisch auch durch diese Videos... also sorry wenn es anstrengend für dich ist aber ich kann realistisch gesehen nicht einfach auf deutsch wechseln (und will das auch nicht), wenns dich zu sehr stört kann ich dir gerade nur anbieten die Videos nicht mehr zu gucken bis mein Englisch besser geworden ist.
Freut mich aber, dass dir der Inhalt gefällt.
@@thestudentYT Ja, ist im Prinzip klar.
@@thestudentYTUr English is literally fine, the comment is nasty
Paradox interactive explaining why maritime idea group is actually useful because money: