A timely analysis. I am glad you did mention Abu-Lughod's work is a tad old and needs to be considered the context in which it was written. Unfortunately, there is this tendency to reduce Iran's current uprising to Hijab and view it either as an attack on Islam or an embrace of Western secular liberalism.
Some really good anologies are made in this video highlighting the double standards of the west regarding hijab however colonialism and other important aspects are not mentioned
I totally agree that the view of the west on the Iranian movement is rather biased and when it comes to women they might see that as an indication of throwing away islamic values and instead embracing western values. In reality, this movement is less about islam it self and rather an oppressive regime that is using an ideology to whip people and take away their freedom of choice. Independent to the west's standpoint, the exposure of the younger generation of Iran to the outside world and understanding the deviation between what they experience as basic human rights compared to the people in the west, makes that desirable for them and rightly so. From this standpoint, this is more about freedom and liberation from an oppressive authoritarian regime than fighting against religious values and rules. But in the case of Iranian government it is intertwined
I'm not sure you know this but Abu-Lughod released a book in 2012 with the same title. I have used both the article and the book in classes to teach on this topic. Both have created some wonderful discussion.
Acting "heroic" and using the idea of human rights were always an execuse for intervention and colonization. and by the way this is not a purely western thing to do, if you ask religious muslim sheikhs now about the Islamic conquests they won't shy away from using the notion of "protecting people."
I know this is totally off topic but what is the style of your glasses called? It's not quite round and not quite aviator. I'm looking for something new and it looks great on you.
Women's freedoms have regressed since Western interventions. Saddam and Qaddafi for all their brutality. were relatively progressive on women getting an education, on not wearing the veil etc The Western concerns for women's rights in Muslim countries are totally bogus. If the West had its way, every Muslim country would be like its ally Saudi Arabia. If a Muslim country surrenders to Western economic and political hegemony. women]s issues are not much of an issue. A case of token progress at best. Western feminists should have been backing socialists in the Muslim world, the relatively progressive elements. Many a Western feminist got suckered into defending Western imperialism under the guise of female liberation.
Thank you so much for this brilliant explanation you gave us about Abu_Lughod. This is actually the point that many persons don't focus on, the agency of women as human beings just like men. Yes we need it in Iran and all around the world
I've seen many of my fellow Iranians admitting that they are islamophobes on Twitter these days. As a non-binary person assigned FAB and raised as a 'muslim' in Iran, i cannot argue with them. This regime took Islam, named itself after it (the Islamic Republic) and transformed it into a concept that makes Iranians shiver with fear and disgust upon hearing it. No Westerner can ever understand this feeling and yes their idea of saving Muslim women from hijab is stupid. Iranian women and men need liberation from mullahs and their ideology -- which, by the way, western governments help to perpetuate -- not just a piece of clothing. The amount of oppression one feels in Iran as a woman and a femme-looking person cannot be described in words. The other day i was walking in the street with my scarf around my neck, not on my head (some ppl in Iran do it nowadays to show their support of the revolution) and an extremist followed me in the street, whispering to me to "wear my hijab." I was shocked for several minutes. Couldn't talk. Just went on walking and when i saw him chasing me again i started filming him so he ran away. I was shaking for the rest of the day. This person was at least 8 yrs younger than me. So Islam makes me and many Iranians wanna vomit. We associate it with harrassment and sexual abuse, among many other horrible things.
I hope that one day iranians can get rid of the islamic regime. Until then some of us will explicitly support you wherever and whenever we can and will criticise their ideological supporters with the best of our abilities. Wish you and the people in Iran the best, justice, equality, freedom.
You understand why they do what they do; their "HADITHS" seek to impose an islamic way so different from the canon Quran that it has taken a long time to arrive.
Would it be acceptable to force children to receive an education which is as free as possible from religious indoctrination? I wonder whether a woman who has been taught that she is the equal of any man and has the right to wear whatever she chooses would make the same choices as one who has not, or whether a man who has been taught the same would want her to.
The issue with the burqua isn't whether women should or should not wear it, but rather the fact that in certain Muslim countries or areas women are jailed, tortured or killed for NOT wearing it. This is a major human rights violation. A burqua hides a woman's identity, significantly impairs her ability to walk, eat it public, exercise etc. It cant be compared in the slightest to the expectation that women and men cover sexual parts of their body with the tiniest of fabrics. No one gets 50 lashes for going to the beach topless. The point is the liberal West isnt committing similar human rights violation.
@@TheoryPhilosophy I agree with that, but that's not the issue causing uproar, especially re the recent protests in Iran. It's the fact that a young woman died after being brutally tortured for the sin of showing her hair. We need to be honest about the issue.
@@TheoryPhilosophy It sounded like you were characterizing the Western opposition to the burqua as being due to cultural disdain due to its view of it as symbol of female oppression as opposed to the expression of an actual act of oppression in that women are forced to wear it (in certain areas). Perhaps I misunderstood.
The emphasis on the hijab is really stupid. First of all, it’s not even a direct requirement in Islam, second of all, the problem is the subjugation of women and their relegation to a particular social role and the limitation of their freedom and not the goddamn piece of headwear. It can get pretty hot and dusty in MENA countries, a headscarf is a pretty neat thing to put on in such a situation
The title of this book in recent context seems quite awkward. Since the protests are aimed at giving back Iranian women their freedom to decide for themselves what to wear and how to live. It’s not about asking Muslim women simply remove their hijab. In Iran and Afghanistan nowadays, all women, including non-Muslim women are forced to wear hijab, that’s the point. The worst thing here is that those regimes are meddled with religious doctrines which are misogynistic. But unfortunately the debate of women’s rights escalates the conflicts and confuse many people since the West can easily implement the disparity to against those Islamic countries, but it doesn’t mean that the theocratic countries are innocent and not oppressive against women in general
You understand why they do what they do; their "HADITHS" seek to impose an Islamic way so different from the canon Quran that it has taken a long time to arrive.
Who has the right to speak for whom? This is the worst fall out of identity politics. Finding fault with a certain feminist position at best provides for an academic argument. It does not change the fact that societies and religions regulate human behaviour stringently and unjustly
One only has the right to speak for themselves and for the interests of the class that they belong to according to Marxist theory, IMO. And this only includes those of us have gained “class consciousness.” In fact, it would be quite impossible for me to speak from the position of anyone else BUT myself, a proletarian. =)
I have a massive discussion with a person who seemingly leaned into some fascistic tendencies (I don't want to lean too heavily into everything he had said) when it came to the hijab and what it means. According to this person, the hijab was a form of oppression placed upon women. I felt a little discomforted by that statement but also understood that there are in fact women who are FORCED to wear the garment; I understood this point but also disagreed that a hijab ban would prevent the subjugation of women. Women gonna be oppressed lol, I don't see most American women donning the hijab in order to lose their reproductive rights. The idea than women's autonomy in CHOOSING to wear the hijab was lost on him. It was essentially equated with oppression. I did not really know how to go about arguing with him haha but this video is quite insightful. Also, I love the Foucault series, very helpful for my own work LOL
I think what is lost here is what you loose regarding the concept of choice. There is a immense difference between formal choice and real choice. To say that a woman who has been socialized and groomed into islam from young age can actively and freely choose to wear a hijab is extremely naive. These women have all been socialized into their own oppression so enacting a formal law makes almost no difference but in totalitarian religions like islam the most important law is islam and not human judicial systems. Therefore allowing women legally to “choose” does nothing to dismantle the culture that indoctrinates them into “choosing” it in the first place.
It sounds like you are a moral realist based on your distaste for relativism. If so, please defend your position. If not, please explain your use of moral language
Oh no, mentioning 9/11. Can a philosopher deal with the physics of gravitational collapse? That would be really interesting since the so called physicists have not questioned the distributions of steel and concrete down the Twin Towers.
From the burka to the thong....it's all the same tyranny. That said, modesty is the best route for social harmony. But it has to be choice and based in reason. Ave Maria Gratias plena 🌹🕊
That was just GREAT!!!!! Thank you so much, you really helped me with my bachelor thesis.
A timely analysis. I am glad you did mention Abu-Lughod's work is a tad old and needs to be considered the context in which it was written. Unfortunately, there is this tendency to reduce Iran's current uprising to Hijab and view it either as an attack on Islam or an embrace of Western secular liberalism.
Some really good anologies are made in this video highlighting the double standards of the west regarding hijab however colonialism and other important aspects are not mentioned
I totally agree that the view of the west on the Iranian movement is rather biased and when it comes to women they might see that as an indication of throwing away islamic values and instead embracing western values. In reality, this movement is less about islam it self and rather an oppressive regime that is using an ideology to whip people and take away their freedom of choice. Independent to the west's standpoint, the exposure of the younger generation of Iran to the outside world and understanding the deviation between what they experience as basic human rights compared to the people in the west, makes that desirable for them and rightly so. From this standpoint, this is more about freedom and liberation from an oppressive authoritarian regime than fighting against religious values and rules. But in the case of Iranian government it is intertwined
I'm not sure you know this but Abu-Lughod released a book in 2012 with the same title. I have used both the article and the book in classes to teach on this topic. Both have created some wonderful discussion.
Acting "heroic" and using the idea of human rights were always an execuse for intervention and colonization. and by the way this is not a purely western thing to do, if you ask religious muslim sheikhs now about the Islamic conquests they won't shy away from using the notion of "protecting people."
I know this is totally off topic but what is the style of your glasses called? It's not quite round and not quite aviator. I'm looking for something new and it looks great on you.
Women's freedoms have regressed since Western interventions. Saddam and Qaddafi for all their brutality. were relatively progressive on women getting an education, on not wearing the veil etc
The Western concerns for women's rights in Muslim countries are totally bogus. If the West had its way, every Muslim country would be like its ally Saudi Arabia.
If a Muslim country surrenders to Western economic and political hegemony. women]s issues are not much of an issue. A case of token progress at best.
Western feminists should have been backing socialists in the Muslim world, the relatively progressive elements. Many a Western feminist got suckered into defending Western imperialism under the guise of female liberation.
Thank you so much for this brilliant explanation you gave us about Abu_Lughod. This is actually the point that many persons don't focus on, the agency of women as human beings just like men. Yes we need it in Iran and all around the world
I've seen many of my fellow Iranians admitting that they are islamophobes on Twitter these days. As a non-binary person assigned FAB and raised as a 'muslim' in Iran, i cannot argue with them. This regime took Islam, named itself after it (the Islamic Republic) and transformed it into a concept that makes Iranians shiver with fear and disgust upon hearing it. No Westerner can ever understand this feeling and yes their idea of saving Muslim women from hijab is stupid. Iranian women and men need liberation from mullahs and their ideology -- which, by the way, western governments help to perpetuate -- not just a piece of clothing.
The amount of oppression one feels in Iran as a woman and a femme-looking person cannot be described in words. The other day i was walking in the street with my scarf around my neck, not on my head (some ppl in Iran do it nowadays to show their support of the revolution) and an extremist followed me in the street, whispering to me to "wear my hijab." I was shocked for several minutes. Couldn't talk. Just went on walking and when i saw him chasing me again i started filming him so he ran away. I was shaking for the rest of the day. This person was at least 8 yrs younger than me. So Islam makes me and many Iranians wanna vomit. We associate it with harrassment and sexual abuse, among many other horrible things.
I hope that one day iranians can get rid of the islamic regime. Until then some of us will explicitly support you wherever and whenever we can and will criticise their ideological supporters with the best of our abilities. Wish you and the people in Iran the best, justice, equality, freedom.
You understand why they do what they do; their "HADITHS" seek to impose an islamic way so different from the canon Quran that it has taken a long time to arrive.
This guy is great.
Would it be acceptable to force children to receive an education which is as free as possible from religious indoctrination?
I wonder whether a woman who has been taught that she is the equal of any man and has the right to wear whatever she chooses would make the same choices as one who has not, or whether a man who has been taught the same would want her to.
The issue with the burqua isn't whether women should or should not wear it, but rather the fact that in certain Muslim countries or areas women are jailed, tortured or killed for NOT wearing it. This is a major human rights violation. A burqua hides a woman's identity, significantly impairs her ability to walk, eat it public, exercise etc. It cant be compared in the slightest to the expectation that women and men cover sexual parts of their body with the tiniest of fabrics. No one gets 50 lashes for going to the beach topless. The point is the liberal West isnt committing similar human rights violation.
Hi Alexa. Yes, to force anyone to wear anything is wrong. The point is to respect women's autonomy to wear what they please, even if it's a burqua.
@@TheoryPhilosophy I agree with that, but that's not the issue causing uproar, especially re the recent protests in Iran. It's the fact that a young woman died after being brutally tortured for the sin of showing her hair. We need to be honest about the issue.
@@alexafairway4846 I don't disagree with this. I'm having trouble understanding your argument
@@TheoryPhilosophy It sounded like you were characterizing the Western opposition to the burqua as being due to cultural disdain due to its view of it as symbol of female oppression as opposed to the expression of an actual act of oppression in that women are forced to wear it (in certain areas). Perhaps I misunderstood.
thx for presenting this
The emphasis on the hijab is really stupid. First of all, it’s not even a direct requirement in Islam, second of all, the problem is the subjugation of women and their relegation to a particular social role and the limitation of their freedom and not the goddamn piece of headwear. It can get pretty hot and dusty in MENA countries, a headscarf is a pretty neat thing to put on in such a situation
The title of this book in recent context seems quite awkward. Since the protests are aimed at giving back Iranian women their freedom to decide for themselves what to wear and how to live. It’s not about asking Muslim women simply remove their hijab. In Iran and Afghanistan nowadays, all women, including non-Muslim women are forced to wear hijab, that’s the point. The worst thing here is that those regimes are meddled with religious doctrines which are misogynistic. But unfortunately the debate of women’s rights escalates the conflicts and confuse many people since the West can easily implement the disparity to against those Islamic countries, but it doesn’t mean that the theocratic countries are innocent and not oppressive against women in general
You understand why they do what they do; their "HADITHS" seek to impose an Islamic way so different from the canon Quran that it has taken a long time to arrive.
Who has the right to speak for whom? This is the worst fall out of identity politics. Finding fault with a certain feminist position at best provides for an academic argument. It does not change the fact that societies and religions regulate human behaviour stringently and unjustly
Absolutely!
One only has the right to speak for themselves and for the interests of the class that they belong to according to Marxist theory, IMO. And this only includes those of us have gained “class consciousness.”
In fact, it would be quite impossible for me to speak from the position of anyone else BUT myself, a proletarian. =)
@@dethkonthat's not Marxist theory at all.
There's only human rights.
I'm tired of anything else.
yes, they do. lol.
Does men, or spiritual leders really need to assert unreasonable standards and force upon ordinary citizen?
Not really, it's all a power play.
I have a massive discussion with a person who seemingly leaned into some fascistic tendencies (I don't want to lean too heavily into everything he had said) when it came to the hijab and what it means. According to this person, the hijab was a form of oppression placed upon women. I felt a little discomforted by that statement but also understood that there are in fact women who are FORCED to wear the garment; I understood this point but also disagreed that a hijab ban would prevent the subjugation of women. Women gonna be oppressed lol, I don't see most American women donning the hijab in order to lose their reproductive rights. The idea than women's autonomy in CHOOSING to wear the hijab was lost on him. It was essentially equated with oppression. I did not really know how to go about arguing with him haha but this video is quite insightful. Also, I love the Foucault series, very helpful for my own work LOL
I think what is lost here is what you loose regarding the concept of choice. There is a immense difference between formal choice and real choice. To say that a woman who has been socialized and groomed into islam from young age can actively and freely choose to wear a hijab is extremely naive. These women have all been socialized into their own oppression so enacting a formal law makes almost no difference but in totalitarian religions like islam the most important law is islam and not human judicial systems. Therefore allowing women legally to “choose” does nothing to dismantle the culture that indoctrinates them into “choosing” it in the first place.
The West? Why you just say United States. Because it all comes dow to U.S. interests on the ground.
It sounds like you are a moral realist based on your distaste for relativism. If so, please defend your position. If not, please explain your use of moral language
Oh no, mentioning 9/11.
Can a philosopher deal with the physics of gravitational collapse? That would be really interesting since the so called physicists have not questioned the distributions of steel and concrete down the Twin Towers.
From the burka to the thong....it's all the same tyranny.
That said, modesty is the best route for social harmony. But it has to be choice and based in reason.
Ave Maria Gratias plena 🌹🕊