Your Dad was one of my modelling heroes back in the day. Fighting the good fight against the plethora of Great Western layouts (mostly branchlines!) that dominated the model railway magazines. Now in old age and poor health, building a stash of old Airfix and Parkside rolling stock following your excellent "how to" suggestions and guidance. Thank you and keep up the good work.
Great vid - thanks. I've traced quite a few derailments over points down to incorrect back to back measurements of wheel sets - even on brand new rolling stock. A simple back to back gauge is one of my best purchases to date.
Great video Nigel When I started running my Cley on Sea layout earlier this year I had so many derailments I was ready for ripping it up. Most of them turned out to be back to backs being way out on brand new stock too. The other thing that can cause them especially on hornby gresleys is sticking close coupling mechanisms a spray of silicone lubricant helps with these. Bachmann mk1s often have centre screws on bogies too tight too. Looking forward to more videos Cheers Russ
Speed. The temptation to send things around at the speed of light is always strong in some. To really drive how big of a problem speed can be with the smallest imperfections just look at how absolutely god awful some industrial networks were in track terms, yet they experienced relatively few derailments even on this bad track because they didn't race around. Temperature? Humidity? Both will to some degree move your baseboards around as they are wood after all. Lack of compensation in the chassis can't be helping some people out.
One of the things I've found which massivly helps avoid derailments, it putting 2 pins on the outside of the track on the sleepers instead of one in the middle. Even with my terrible woodwork skills, the trains (mostly) stay on the track with that method!
David Jenkinson, in a Railway Modeller from the late 1980s/early 1990s, but it simply. If a vehicle derails anywhere, check the vehicle. If vehicles derail at a specific location, check the track. If rando, check everything. Badly painted track can cause gauge narrowing. Been there, done that. Fortunately, it wasn't close to the outside edge and easy to remedy.
Couldn't work out why I was getting derailments in two places on a pre-owned layout. Realised it only happened with modern-wheeled stock. All became clear when I got the vernier calipers out and found the track gauge was over 17mm! The older stock was quite happy, but the finer tyres on newer wheels simply fell between the rails! In one place I discovered that all the sleeper chairs were broken, so the rail was being held in place (but not in gauge) by the adjacent point rail. Thanks for this. Some great ideas to think about. (Mismatched couplings are another fault, with hooks catching on one another or buffers, or not having enough room to move on a tight curve. Re-ordering the train consist is often enough!)
Good video well structured and presented as ever. I remember seeing somewhere a useful tool for finding track problems on a layout. It was two compensated wheel units with wheels bolted together with a rod to make a sort of wagon. Each wheel unit had a vertical metal rod attached to it of about 10cm which was straight up when the unit was flat and level. As you moved it along the track any discrepancies could be seen by any movement in the vertical rods away from the true vertical. It was especially useful for points where the frogs had sunk or moved.
My dad used a lump os flat steel about 8" (200mm) long. Resting it on the rails. If a piece of 20 thou plastikard could fit under any corner of the bar, the discrepancy was dealt with. He modelled O gauge, so scaling down for 00 would need to be done.
Hi , some great tips here ! also what a lot don,t realize particularly with a loft layout (not the best place) in hot spells the track and board move slightly no matter how well you,ve constructed the benchwork and track ! it can get to 130 degrees up there...... it makes things move , great video i,m subscribed......
Interesting video with obvious parallels to the full-size version, especially re twist faults and cyclic top. From my observations, I think some modellers rush track design and laying just to get something running, then never go back over their design to review its running quality or to remove “built-in” faults. With that in mind and given that so many new models are so well-detailed and delicate, surely it must follow that they should be running on snooker-table quality track and efficient track design / laying to avoid them derailing and getting damaged? Good video. 👍🏻
Cripes I love your “Gripes”. They are so educational please can we have some more construction best practices - wiring, locos and rolling stock etc? When you never been to a “club or exhibition” or spoken in depth other than we the product manufacturer these videos are invaluable. Thank you
Nice to see another video from you, I always enjoy binge watching all your videos and learning new things from them - you're one of the reasons I'm more into diesels these days!
Afternoon Mr train man 👍🏻 Really interesting with some very useful tips eliminating derailments 😂 Looking forward to seeing more of your updates 🤩 Cheers Stevie
thanks for that very interesting 👍 😀 I usually glue my track so no track pins but I have screwed down the track on my helixes I don't get any derailment issues except for a couple of certain trains so will be checking those screws now to make sure none are over tightened...
One I get quite often is when propelling a train around a bend into a siding, if the train isn't "weighted" properly some of the lighter wagons in the middle will actually get lifted by the forces of the wagon behind pushing on it and the wagons in front being "heavier". You ever had that?
Yes, smaller scales do suffer. Not so much the larger scales as weight isn't really an issue. Tighter curves, set track, will suffer more. Points and how the switch rail marries up will be a contributing factor too.
Also, if you buy old rolling stock and the wheels need oiling they create too much drag in the units before them making them derail on points. Same concept. Mon from Monsville Railways
Hi, thanks for the video. Expansion of the track or and the baseboard. I have had a nightmare with soldering to copperclad pcb board! Also whilst operating layouts at exhibitions the hall is cold at night and hot during the day, Nightmare.!
One item that can make engines derail not stated is the connection between train units. Adjacent Wagon couplings at different heights might be one example. Tri-ang and Hornby used a shaft from the tender to electrically connect a tender drive to sprung brass plates of an engine. This shaft had tiny ridges on it to help connect the two units together. Sometimes these ridges stopped the shaft from the tender seating all the way down to where it should be, making the front wheels of the tender slightly high. This would cause derailments on corners. Make sure all your train units are coupled or seated correctly. 👍 Mon from Monsville Railways
At the current moment I've got a small layout 8x4. 12 millimeter thick plywood on a 2 inch x 3 inch frame. A strong base. The points on my layout are the standard Hornby points. But I've found out that the larger locomotives don't like these points. They derail. A pain in the arse. I'm planning in the future to build a new bigger and better layout. But I'm thinking about using express points instead of the standard points. The track on the current layout is on the Hornby track lay and pinned down. Not pinned down tightly either. No derailment. But on the new layout I'm thinking about using cork matting
One of the most important issues with new stock is as you mentioned is the wheel flanges being smaller. As soon as i get a derailment i check for dirt build up on the wheels ,once cleaned all is well .
Try using #4 or larger Radius don't forget switches. Secondly, don't over-tighten the screw on the bogies I've found they track better with a little slop.
Great insight into this problem. Another element that I think warrants consideration is the different type of couplings in use by the various manufacturers. What is your opinion on this ? Regards Charlie
Its a lot better - easier now compared to the 70's 80's when there was more manufacturers doing their own thing. With the introduction of NEM pockets and a sort of standardisation changing to what you prefer is easy. I like the small Bachmann type tension lock couplers
Bad or loose movable rail in the track switch, also the Frog in the Switch being too Shallow. The wheel flange hits it too fast the whole wagon jumps and derails it happens more when loco pushes during shunting.
What a excellent video. Full of useful info. Which model shop did you work? I am into N as well and for some reason I just don’t get the derailments. Look forward to seeing your next video. Love the peak at the start.
Nige, You forgot one cause of derailments !! Operator stupidity if changing one set of points generally good to change the corresponding pair too !! And did i see in this video, you bigging up LIMA ??? i knew you come round to my way of thinking ;-)
Real life MR3 (Irish Rai) had a tolerance Of 3-5mm from each corner off the bogie . off Course it could have been different in Britain. Retired railway Fitter 🇮🇪🇪🇺
Yesterday I watched (on UA-cam) someone soaking his track bed in which he hopes the base board could pulled down, as he didn't prime or seal the surface or edges of his ply wood, another problem I in-counted in the past different suppliers seller their ply in different thickness ie B&Q 8mm was 8mm but Homebase was 8.5mm! and even better wicks turned out to be under 8mm GREAT 😒😒
No mention of propelling too fast, not coming to a clear understanding with the shunter, failing to check the points were set in the direction of the movement, not being aware of stock on adjacent roads beyond the fouling point........! Always blame the engineer and never the operator!
Just starting to design my first layout. Learned heaps. Thank you
Your Dad was one of my modelling heroes back in the day. Fighting the good fight against the plethora of Great Western layouts (mostly branchlines!) that dominated the model railway magazines. Now in old age and poor health, building a stash of old Airfix and Parkside rolling stock following your excellent "how to" suggestions and guidance. Thank you and keep up the good work.
There are some lovely kinks on the real railway. I spotted some on the platforms facing Scarborough at York.
Great vid - thanks. I've traced quite a few derailments over points down to incorrect back to back measurements of wheel sets - even on brand new rolling stock. A simple back to back gauge is one of my best purchases to date.
Same!!
Great video Nigel
When I started running my Cley on Sea layout earlier this year I had so many derailments I was ready for ripping it up. Most of them turned out to be back to backs being way out on brand new stock too. The other thing that can cause them especially on hornby gresleys is sticking close coupling mechanisms a spray of silicone lubricant helps with these. Bachmann mk1s often have centre screws on bogies too tight too. Looking forward to more videos
Cheers Russ
Speed. The temptation to send things around at the speed of light is always strong in some. To really drive how big of a problem speed can be with the smallest imperfections just look at how absolutely god awful some industrial networks were in track terms, yet they experienced relatively few derailments even on this bad track because they didn't race around. Temperature? Humidity? Both will to some degree move your baseboards around as they are wood after all. Lack of compensation in the chassis can't be helping some people out.
Great Video for a novice going into this new hobby in may retairetment , thank you so much for high lighting some common issue.
One of the things I've found which massivly helps avoid derailments, it putting 2 pins on the outside of the track on the sleepers instead of one in the middle. Even with my terrible woodwork skills, the trains (mostly) stay on the track with that method!
First came across that method with Charlie TMD.
If it works, don't fix it.
Ret, Irish Rail fitter
David Jenkinson, in a Railway Modeller from the late 1980s/early 1990s, but it simply. If a vehicle derails anywhere, check the vehicle. If vehicles derail at a specific location, check the track. If rando, check everything. Badly painted track can cause gauge narrowing. Been there, done that. Fortunately, it wasn't close to the outside edge and easy to remedy.
Couldn't work out why I was getting derailments in two places on a pre-owned layout. Realised it only happened with modern-wheeled stock. All became clear when I got the vernier calipers out and found the track gauge was over 17mm! The older stock was quite happy, but the finer tyres on newer wheels simply fell between the rails!
In one place I discovered that all the sleeper chairs were broken, so the rail was being held in place (but not in gauge) by the adjacent point rail.
Thanks for this. Some great ideas to think about.
(Mismatched couplings are another fault, with hooks catching on one another or buffers, or not having enough room to move on a tight curve. Re-ordering the train consist is often enough!)
Good video well structured and presented as ever. I remember seeing somewhere a useful tool for finding track problems on a layout. It was two compensated wheel units with wheels bolted together with a rod to make a sort of wagon. Each wheel unit had a vertical metal rod attached to it of about 10cm which was straight up when the unit was flat and level. As you moved it along the track any discrepancies could be seen by any movement in the vertical rods away from the true vertical. It was especially useful for points where the frogs had sunk or moved.
My dad used a lump os flat steel about 8" (200mm) long. Resting it on the rails. If a piece of 20 thou plastikard could fit under any corner of the bar, the discrepancy was dealt with.
He modelled O gauge, so scaling down for 00 would need to be done.
Enjoyed that. Wise words indeed. Don’t forget checking the gauge (back to back) on wheel sets on all rolling stock.
Good to see u back mate
What do you mean ‘supposed to’…. You sound sceptical of the accuracy of the kit… or do you doubt the crew? 😂😎
😂
Depends who's on 😉
Some good points there, ones I shall now be aware of when I eventually get round to building a layout. Thanks for posting.
Hi , some great tips here ! also what a lot don,t realize particularly with a loft layout (not the best place) in hot spells the track and board move slightly no matter how well you,ve constructed the benchwork and track ! it can get to 130 degrees up there...... it makes things move , great video i,m subscribed......
Interesting video with obvious parallels to the full-size version, especially re twist faults and cyclic top. From my observations, I think some modellers rush track design and laying just to get something running, then never go back over their design to review its running quality or to remove “built-in” faults.
With that in mind and given that so many new models are so well-detailed and delicate, surely it must follow that they should be running on snooker-table quality track and efficient track design / laying to avoid them derailing and getting damaged?
Good video. 👍🏻
Cripes I love your “Gripes”. They are so educational please can we have some more construction best practices - wiring, locos and rolling stock etc? When you never been to a “club or exhibition” or spoken in depth other than we the product manufacturer these videos are invaluable. Thank you
Always a pleasure to listen to you. Lance Mindheim covers very similar points in his book.
Nice to see another video from you, I always enjoy binge watching all your videos and learning new things from them - you're one of the reasons I'm more into diesels these days!
Afternoon Mr train man 👍🏻 Really interesting with some very useful tips eliminating derailments 😂 Looking forward to seeing more of your updates 🤩 Cheers Stevie
thanks for that very interesting 👍 😀 I usually glue my track so no track pins but I have screwed down the track on my helixes I don't get any derailment issues except for a couple of certain trains so will be checking those screws now to make sure none are over tightened...
One I get quite often is when propelling a train around a bend into a siding, if the train isn't "weighted" properly some of the lighter wagons in the middle will actually get lifted by the forces of the wagon behind pushing on it and the wagons in front being "heavier".
You ever had that?
Yes, smaller scales do suffer. Not so much the larger scales as weight isn't really an issue.
Tighter curves, set track, will suffer more.
Points and how the switch rail marries up will be a contributing factor too.
Also, if you buy old rolling stock and the wheels need oiling they create too much drag in the units before them making them derail on points.
Same concept.
Mon from Monsville Railways
Hi, thanks for the video. Expansion of the track or and the baseboard. I have had a nightmare with soldering to copperclad pcb board! Also whilst operating layouts at exhibitions the hall is cold at night and hot during the day, Nightmare.!
One item that can make engines derail not stated is the connection between train units.
Adjacent Wagon couplings at different heights might be one example.
Tri-ang and Hornby used a shaft from the tender to electrically connect a tender drive to sprung brass plates of an engine. This shaft had tiny ridges on it to help connect the two units together.
Sometimes these ridges stopped the shaft from the tender seating all the way down to where it should be, making the front wheels of the tender slightly high. This would cause derailments on corners.
Make sure all your train units are coupled or seated correctly. 👍
Mon from Monsville Railways
At the current moment I've got a small layout 8x4. 12 millimeter thick plywood on a 2 inch x 3 inch frame. A strong base. The points on my layout are the standard Hornby points. But I've found out that the larger locomotives don't like these points. They derail. A pain in the arse. I'm planning in the future to build a new bigger and better layout. But I'm thinking about using express points instead of the standard points. The track on the current layout is on the Hornby track lay and pinned down. Not pinned down tightly either. No derailment. But on the new layout I'm thinking about using cork matting
The gentler the curve the better it is. Cork is good (I use it) but need to be aware of driving pins in too far.
A couple of days with Barrie & co taught me more about operating a railway than Railtrack/Network Rail ever did
Still true 😂👍
One of the most important issues with new stock is as you mentioned is the wheel flanges being smaller. As soon as i get a derailment i check for dirt build up on the wheels ,once cleaned all is well .
Indeed, I remember cleaning wheels by the hundred before a show when my father was on the exhibition circuit!!
extra Long wagons are very vulnerable to derailments on overly nailed down track
Try using #4 or larger Radius don't forget switches. Secondly, don't over-tighten the screw on the bogies I've found they track better with a little slop.
Very interesting. Thank you.
Most of my derailments come down to my own failure to set points. lol
😂
Great insight into this problem. Another element that I think warrants consideration is the different type of couplings in use by the various manufacturers. What is your opinion on this ?
Regards
Charlie
Its a lot better - easier now compared to the 70's 80's when there was more manufacturers doing their own thing. With the introduction of NEM pockets and a sort of standardisation changing to what you prefer is easy.
I like the small Bachmann type tension lock couplers
Bad or loose movable rail in the track switch, also the Frog in the Switch being too Shallow. The wheel flange hits it too fast the whole wagon jumps and derails it happens more when loco pushes during shunting.
The list is endless
will probably do a part 2 of this and list all the things in the comments
Thanks for contributing 👍👍😃
Spend a lot of time and patience when track laying...it will pay dividends..plus I love track laying anyway lol?
laying track is Strangely therapeutic 🙂
Interesting👍
Yea good VIDEO - also the various couplers used nowdays seems too give some situations when two or more types are in a mix on the TRAIN ,🙄😉🤔🖒🖒
What a excellent video. Full of useful info. Which model shop did you work? I am into N as well and for some reason I just don’t get the derailments. Look forward to seeing your next video. Love the peak at the start.
I think that a train will detail if the track is not joined together properly or you didn't ad the rail joiners between the sections of track.
n the process of doing a video with all the responses to this
Thanks for your input 👍
Wouldn't be glueing instead of nailing the track to the backboard be better?
Try P4 it's a pig even a few thou out and you've got stock off.
Nige, You forgot one cause of derailments !! Operator stupidity if changing one set of points generally good to change the corresponding pair too !!
And did i see in this video, you bigging up LIMA ??? i knew you come round to my way of thinking ;-)
Real life MR3 (Irish Rai) had a tolerance Of 3-5mm from each corner off the bogie . off Course it could have been different in Britain. Retired railway Fitter 🇮🇪🇪🇺
Yesterday I watched (on UA-cam) someone soaking his track bed in which he hopes the base board could pulled down, as he didn't prime or seal the surface or edges of his ply wood, another problem I in-counted in the past different suppliers seller their ply in different thickness ie B&Q 8mm was 8mm but Homebase was 8.5mm! and even better wicks turned out to be under 8mm GREAT 😒😒
Cats.... If you got a cat, sooner or later, you're going to have a derailment. It's in their nature to destroy what we love best.
Over soldering the joints ..🤦♂
In the process of doing a video with all the responses to this
Thanks for your input 👍
No mention of propelling too fast, not coming to a clear understanding with the shunter, failing to check the points were set in the direction of the movement, not being aware of stock on adjacent roads beyond the fouling point........! Always blame the engineer and never the operator!
😂👍
Not relevant but why is your mic so bad no?
Relevant, Yes, I had trouble with trains derailing.
I've been having quite a few technical issues lately 😬