Counterspells, card draw, targeted removal, one-sided boardwipes come to mind. But I think the individual card makes more of a difference here. E.g. Dauthi Voidwalker has different stuff that makes it work in each situation - it's not one effect it's a combination.
Developing and Losing cards are fairly self evident, eg. Sol Ring and Angel's Grace. Using what you've learned about applying quadrant theory to these specific cards, try evaluating some other cards to see what you learn.
Those squares dont mean anything other than theory. I challenge them to show a gameplay video that goes this way...... and Is this channel dedicated to cedh only...? whats wrong with “old magic” or just playing decks and cards for fun? Basically every card shown here can be powerful in the right deck or just add more fun and laughs to a game
It's worth pointing out that, by quadrant theory, cards like Craterhoof Behemoth, Thassa's Oracle, and other widely-played win conditions are also bad because they at most are good when Winning or at Parity. Not that people shouldn't run them, of course, it's just that sometimes the quadrants can't tell the entire story.
@@financecarter In any given deck, this is true. Some of these (Craterhoof particularly) are not notorious because they are the best wincons in the deck, but because they are the wincons that work in almost any deck.
Was about to say the same. In a Rakdos deck I don’t have a Craterhoof to drop. But Fiery Emancipation does the job nicely with my flying trampling demons who need to close out the game with raw damage. 20 damage becoming 60 makes the difference. Also paired with things like Archfiend, I can kill everyone out of nowhere. I can live with not being able to cast it early game just as I would Craterhoof or Overwhelming Stampede in a green deck!
First off: Congratulations on the engagement! While your ranking videos, funny shorts and other stuff are entertaining, videos like these are what I value most about your channel. When I started playing, these are what helped me understand the format, evaluate cards properly and build better decks. I like that you rate new cards honestly instead of hyping up all the useless Planeswalkers we get each set, like others do just for the views. Thank you for being a reliable source of information, staying in contact with your viewers and regularly producing entertaining content!
Hunter's insight is so good in stompy decks. The fact that it's an instant is what makes it good. There are alot of people who will just take 4- 5 damage if your attacking creature has trample because what's the point in losing a creature and still taking damage. That's when it shines because you can flash this in after they declare no blockers. So I think it's good in the parity and winning.
"You gotta eat your veggies too" man what a great way to look at deck building. I definitely fall short of that a lot and often dont run enough lands or card draw and just too much ramp.. trying to get better at it and this channel is definitely helping to shed some light on the subject and help me out. Been watching for a while now but havent been lately.. now I'm kinda glad I didnt so I can go binge watch haha. Anyways great video guys, congrats on the new engagement, keep up the great work nerds! ❤
Appreciate the kind words, we're glad this video was helpful to you! We're always striving to get better at Commander and to find new ways to communicate our ideas :)
As foretold has one additional home, being flash/instantspeed decks due to its wording. If you have instants(like counterspells ir cantrips) in hand you can tap out and still use it on another turn for free.
My friend and I recently got back into commander and your videos have been extremely helpful for me! I don’t win a lot against my friends but I’m having fun 😂❤😊
Utvara Hellkite: the way I play this, it closes the game the turn it comes down because Terror of the Peaks, Dragon Tempest, and Scourge of Valkas exist. In a vacuum though I would agree.
I've seen many games end when the Utvara comes out due to the same cards that Tenzin is pointing out as well as others that trigger as big creatures come into play.
My fiancé runs Utvara Hellkite in her Isshin deck which has a dragon reanimator subtheme, if she's not cheating it into play with Sneak Attack she's reanimating it and other dragons with Patriarch's Bidding so it's basically a Craterhoof Behemoth in red.
I love the science/strategy/rationale behind this kind of segment. It helps give a framework for newbie players to go by. Best video I've seen from this channel thus far.
My worst deck, but the one that I can't make myself give up on, is a Trostani deck that's all about pushing out BIG tokens. The key to improving it was making more things that got the deck going (i.e. creating tokens) and less payoffs. Well of Lost Dreams and Second Harvest were both among the cuts.
I used to have Well of Lost Dreams in my Darien deck but ended up taking it out a while ago. Any time I try to put it in a deck i still end up taking it out. Honestly its just... a bad card. Theres more efficient ways to draw cards.
Love As Foretold in my Doctor Who deck Even when it first comes out, it can at least help me cheat out suspend cards with no mana value Plus even 1-2 counters is super clutch for fueling my interaction and counterspells, since it lets you use its ability once per turn Or even using it to cast your commander once you have enough Then time traveling helps you build up those counters stupid quick. Last time I had it out, I had like 12 counters on it. Was awesome casting my biggest stuff.
It's funny with crucible of fire because your thoughts on this card echo my initial reaction to it... except every time I've used it in my ur dragon app it felt amazing and any time it was used against me it sucked a lot. It works really well as a way to help the dragons survive to get more, and its amazing as long as you have creatures. It's a strong finisher, which should be its purpose. It's basically a permanent overrun (given dragons have flying). On top of that it makes dragons more intimidating, so it can turn a losing board with a single dragon into a near-parity. Way better than I think you give it credit for.
It's just that you can play so many other dragons that do basically the same but... are dragons themselves. Thrakkus the Butcher = when it attacks, double each dragon's power Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury = Whenever a dragon you control attacks, creatures you control get +1/+0 until end of turn (attacking with three dragons = +3/+0 Lozhan, Dragons' Legacy = Whenever you cast an Adventure or Dragon spell, Lozhan, Dragons’ Legacy deals damage equal to that spell’s mana value to any target that isn’t a commander Wrathful Red Dragon = Whenever a Dragon you control is dealt damage, it deals that much damage to any target that isn’t a Dragon Dromoka, the Eternal = Whenever a Dragon you control attacks, bolster 2 Like... instead of playing enchantments that make your dragons stronger, just play DRAGONS that make your Dragons stronger. Not only does that mean you'll generally have more stuff on the board that actually needs to get answered, it also means you have more synnergies. A Kolaghan, the Storms Fury doesn't just make your other dragons better, it also gets better from other dragons. Crucible of Fire doesn't do that. It makes other dragons stronger, but never gets stronger itself... because it' just an enchantment that sits there. Dragons are basically slivers now. What also compounds this is if you play The Ur-Dragon, that every Dragon will be cheaper by one mana. It's actually incredible how much of a difference that makes. If you play any acceleation at all turn 1/2, you'll have 4 mana available on turn 3. With Ur-Dragon's emminence ability I can now cast any 5-mana dragon on turn 3. Then follow up up with a second dragon turn 4 and most of the time that's already a huge issue for your opponents. I'd rather have two dragons than one dragon and a crucible. And finally: Giving your dragons +3/+3 doesn't really prevent them from getting killed. Like sure, they're a bit tougher but they will STILL die basically to any boardwipe and occasionally survive a red sweeper (even then there are exceptions with Star of Extinction and Blasphemous Act which deal so much damage that even high toughness doesn't save your dragons). Targeted removal most of the time exiles or destroys or bounces. So I'd much rather play something like Steely Resolve (As Steely Resolve enters the battlefield, choose a creature type. Creatures of the chosen type have shroud.) to protect my dragons from single target removal. It's much cheaper at 2 mana and is way better at protecting my dragons than a +3/+3 buff ever could.
@@PaulSzkibikHere's the thing though- most field wipes kill creatures, but its a rare field wipe that destroys enchantments. If your whole focus is on summoning dragons, any deck with a solid and reliable creature counter can put it out. Having a few enchantments and artifacts can make important effects harder to remove. And when I say theyre more survivable, Im talking about combat- people will think a lot harder about attacking you if you have an 8/8 or 9/9 than they will about a 5/5 or 6/6, as there are far fewer things that can survive that. On top of all that, if someone brings out targeted enchantment removal, this one looks bad enough on the surface that people won't destroy it over others like kindred discovery or damage engines. Literally you're expressing my starting viewpoint on that card, but the more I've used it, the more I realized its a surprisingly strong card that goes well beyond first impressions. Its easy to sleep on. (Ill also add that it makes Ur dragon 2-shot someone)
Second harvest goes in my Volo deck because even if I only have 1 or 2 copy tokens, the token copies are usually very valuable and at least 4 mana. Getting an extra 1 or 2 copies of something like acidic slime or peregrine drake, let alone craterhoof, is pretty huge.
Basicly what you guys are telling us. Every card fits into it's own category, make sure you know where every card goes. This helps balancing your deck over time.
This is such an interesting way of looking at the value of a card not in a vacuum, not in a specific situation, but in the 4 states a game can be based on flow
I have Second Harvest in my Rin & Siri deck. It makes a ton of tokens and since it’s an Instant I can play it on an opponents End Step. It has been dead in my hand, but not usually.😊
I play it in Kalamax and it regularly draws me tons of cards. But I guess he's sorta tailor made for it other than evasion. Just slap something on him, it's not like you should be attacking in before that anyway.
Exactly and saying it doesn't help with parody after a board wipe Makes no sense play a creature with haste or play multiple creatures. And the next turn use hunter's insight and hit Whoever you can get it by with.
I’m a little confused. You guys preach that fun comes before winning, however you make the most in depth edh breakdowns and say don’t spend 6 mana on fiery emancipation or grave titan cause it’s not powerful enough. I’m getting mixed messages.
I feel like they are trying to appeal to a more serious audience. You can’t run a business appealing to just one singular demographic. To draw attention to your channel, you need to speak to more people rather than just one type of person.
I agree with both harris and carter. But I will say this: There is one flaw with this quadrant theory. It's assuming that you're hard casting all of these spells. Yes, most of the time you are, but there are some decks where it doesn't apply. Either way, for the most part, this quadrant theory makes a lot of sense. Casting higher cost spells early in the game will slow you down a lot or screw you unless they have a very powerful upside.
Zur the enchanter + as Foretold is fantastic. Also it says “once EACH turn…” not once on your turn. Meaning it can turn counter spell into Better Force of will. In 2 turns, free cast a one cost spell like. Esper Sentinel, Land Tax, Mystic remora, sol ring, etc. then boom turn 2+ your looking at free counter spells and better from then on. But after the first counter spell they will remove that shit.
@@r.a.w.780 Exactly. Besides mana dorks I don't know if I have a dragon that deals less than 4 damage (I've got probably 1 that does 4) So i'll take it.
I use fiery emancipation in burn....or to turn my 6 mana banefire into a kill spell. I dunno I would never slot it into a creature deck with the idea that my 1/1 is going to suddenly accomplish something. In something like hinata where I am controlling the board, this thing let's you output damage while holding up mana. Something like Immodane for example.
Well of Lost Dreams is goated in a lifegain deck. My Lyra Dawnbringer deck uses it heavily, but its definitely only brcause there's heavy lifegain synergy.
I used to use Well of Lost Dreams in my Darien deck but never got it to work because I almost always had a better card in hand. The commitment to using it was too much mana.
Well of lost dreams....anything (other than skull clamp) that requires me to pay additional mana to draw, I avoid. I want my draws to come free with a trigger, or directly from the spell I cast. I rarely have extra mana for these triggers. My turns are planned out so I'm completely out, or I'm holding up mana for responses
Fiery emancipation is a finisher. You dont just play it and leave it sitting on the board, you play it once you have a decent board state and can just get though with a ton of dmg to win.
I play this in my Ovika deck. I cast it after my commander is on the board and then lights out. Of course I already have things on the board like Cavalcade of Calamity, Raid Bombardment, Impact Tremors, Goblin Bombardment etc. . .
@@dandonaldson9149 according to edhrec only 4% of red deck are running it so really i dont think it belongs on this list of things you need to cut from your deck. there are a couple other cards i dont agree with on this list ether.
Fiery Emancipation is actually a really funny case because I'm (probably) putting one into my budget Imodane, the Pyrohammer deck because it triples twice. That's pretty much the only case. Might swap it with Isengard Unleashed though.
Well of lost dreams is actually fairly decent in a Saheeli deck if you are generating treasure tokens. Otherwise, it's pretty inefficient. On a side note, I can't remember if I've tried The Magic Mirror in my Locust God deck, but maximum hand size is always fun in that deck, so I might give it a whirl since I am casting draw spells the first few turns anyways, and with a lot of wheel effects, it's an easy pitch if you don't need it.
I feel the only one of these that's "wrong" is Well of Lost Dreams, solely because it's not really meant to do almost anything y'all graded it on. It's incidental card draw, meant for you to dump some excess mana into occasionally. Is it being overplayed? Yeah, probably, because by itself it's not gonna do much. It should only go in decks where nearly every spell/effect has a random "gain 1 life" tacked on, but that's part of the fun of EDH. Finding those janky cards that your deck can exploit (such as in UG with Horizon Chimera out or in a Queza, Augur of Agonies deck). Everything else, spot on (though I'd offer a small counterpoint and say Reya really only goes in reanimator decks anyway, where you're probably cheating her into play for way less than 9-mana).
it's one of my favorite cards in my Dina deck. i could sneeze and i'd gain life with that deck, and card draw is a little lacking. if it's a deck that's only going to draw 3-4 cards it's trash, but if it draws you +15?
As Foretold is amazing in decks that play a lot of cheap instants. It says, "once each turn," so that includes your opponents' turns. Of course it's best if As Foretold comes out early so you can cast bigger spells for free, but even if it comes down late in a deck with a lot of cheap instants you can cast plenty of 1-2 cost spells for free each turn cycle. I really love using As Foretold to hold up interaction. I might be tapped out but have a Miscast, Pongify, or Counterspell in hand ready to go
If you’re running a Themberchaud deck, Fiery Emancipation usually signals death. Usually a Lightning Bolt for 60-90 damage is following it. That card gives me Thumberchuds (The sour belches)
As a fan of mono black it saddens me just how not good Black Market is... it seems good at first and it rewards me for doing what I want to do, things dying, but I've never had it pay off in any meaningful way and I ended up cutting it from all my mono-black decks. In my experience by the time I got it down I was essentially at the point where I didn't need the benefit any longer.
I think there is an argument for some of these that makes them good early game when you think about the politics. A few of the 4/5 mana cards mentions come down and do nothing initially which on the face of it aren’t great, however they also signal ‘I am not the threat’. In many decks that aren’t designed to take the game head on early, and equally a lot of newer players to magic might find it in their favour, playing these cards while someone else puts down a big problem can buy you almost 2/3 turns to build advantage from the shadows. I definitely agree with cutting the ‘win more’ cards though (or finding holes in a deck where you have nothing good to play when loosing)- they are hard to part with, and sometimes hard to spot, and this quadrant idea certainly helps to identify them.
Assemble the legion works with Ceasar, Legions Emperor because each turns it gives you tokens to sac. So if you get wiped, you can still cast Caesar next turn and have some tokens thanks to Assemble. That´s why I still play it in that deck, however, I have considered taking it our for something faster.
Crucible of fire is a must in my dragons build. Mine is Blue/Red with Ganax, Astral Hunter/Feywild Visitor background pair(Dragons and their treasures). The Feywild Visitor shits out 1/1 faerie dragons all game long basically. Making the meh 1/1's into 4/4's. Gets especially nuts when you have one of the cards out that makes dragons or creatures etb'ing deal damage equal to their power to something. Crucible puts a ton of pressure on the board in this deck and pretty much always has a constant stream of 1/1's to buff and not relying on only full cost dragons. But yes do agree in any standard "Pay full cost for 1 fat dragon at a time" type deck it's really not going to pull it's weight as much.
Cool visualization, although I think an unwritten benefit of some cards appearing "bad" in the early game is the whole "under the radar" side of edh which I think is powerful as well.
Well of lost dreams is literally the best card draw spell if you are a life gain deck. Its flexible, letting you only pay 1 for 1 scaling into huge draws after you dumb your hand (I've literally drawn 10+ multiple times). More importantly, as long as you are using the correct life gain cards that are trigger effects, you can do it in other people's turns after you have made your plays and have a mana or two left that you didn't spend. This allows you to maximize your efficiency. Could not be more incorrect on this one.
The argument of a spell being "bad" because the creture it targets can be killed and the spell fizzles is way too generic. The One Ring, Dockside, Craterhoof, all these cards can be countered, so that makes them bad right? Smothering Tithe and Rhystic Studies are bad when losing because people who are winning will pay the 2/1 right?
Hunter's Insight has a higher setup cost than the other spells you mentioned; you need a creature with 3+ power and you also need to attack and it also needs to deal at least 3 damage. I think Mia compared it to Harmonize, which isn't a great card, but it has zero setup cost. Everything does die to counterspells/removal, but in the case of cards like Hunter's Insight, you are also exposing another card to removal as your opponents are offered a much more tempting trade of a 2-for-1
Utvara Hellkite is so amazing in my Miirym Sentinel Wyrm deck tho. 8 mana (90% of the time 1 or 2 mana (from sneak attack or other cheat effects)) for 2+ 6/6 that make double or more the 6/6 dragons
I like As Foretold in the precon it reprinted in. The time travel mechanic does make this a threat, since you're usually getting other time counter manipulation as well as this. But I agree it requires a deck that already works with its counters very well to be useful. Also, it goes great with flash and instants. A lot of people assume it's just a free spell on your turn but it's a free spell each turn.
With Marisi out and hunters insight, it's possibly green on everything but losing. Maybe developing it's still yellow By the way, your bottom template thing where you put your current topic looks amazing ❤
I think you're right in most cases about as fortold. Its awesome in my oloro upkeep tribal deck...one of my favorite cards there, and its crazy good in mono blue control, not having to leave up all the mana for counterspells, i can use as foretold to get free value. Its dope, my kess grixis control deck adores it, and my sen triplets deck does well with it. But in other decs that really only focus on doing things on my turn....yeah, not great. Parity breaker for sure, developing 100%, and its saved me a few times....casting narsets reversal on expropriate is a rude thing to do. They forget you can cast a free spell with it, and you slam a clutch card on them.
Assemble the Legion is a superfriends card. It is rather good for protecting your walkers and plays super well with proliferate, and eventually wins the game by itself. r/w agro type decks can do better for certain, but in commodore guff/ other superfriends decks with red mana....one hell of a roleplayer! Hunter's Insight is....awesome? Do you play it in a deck that can't reliably expect to be getting through with a 4-5 power creature, likely one with hexproof....no...you dont. In a deck that expects to be able to do that...draw 5 for 3 is pretty good I hear. I agree that crucible, fiery emancipation, reya and magic mirror area all pretty bad, and second harvest and utrvara are pretty win-more. All the other cards are great card in the decks that they can fill a vital role in
I've never personally seen anyone use assemble the legion but without help it seems absolutely horrendous 5 mana to get a single 1/1 on your next turn seems so bad off the bat. Also b/c its slow it feels like it just gives your opponents time to find answers for when it gets to be actually good.
I do still run Utvara, but in my Ur Dragon deck so he's cheaper. That deck relies hard on Dragon ETBs, so the ability to basically double my Dragons is usually a finishing move. It triggers stuff like Terror of the Peaks, Dragon Tempest, and Scourge of Valkas like crazy. It turns my deck from single-player removal to winning. I am aware most combat-focused Dragon decks don't need this, but Dragon ETB effects are the name of my game. That deck has no intention of waiting for next turn to get value off any Dragon
As I've been building and testing more decks recently I've realized more and more that doubling season, parallel lives, and anointed procession are win more type cards. It makes me sad but they do not make the cut as often... mondrak,, adrix and nev, and ojer taq have been making the cut more often strictly because they are creatures so they have much better synergy.
Something I think is a little underrated which corner cards like these is: "How Immediate of a Response is Needed?" I feel there are a lot of cards in MTG that don't exactly do anything the turn (or first couple turns) they hit the field but WILL get out of control if left alone. So I think there is something to be said for running /certain/ cards as a sort of "Removal Bait" that if unanswered will aid you in winning the game. Also you should never run these cards unless you deck can capitalize off them and also enable them. Black Market shouldn't be in anything that doesn't sac its own creatures- Well of Lost Dreams probably only belongs in decks that already capitalize off lifegain like Trelasarra or Oloro. 10/10 video as always. 😎👌
I definitely agree with these cards, even though they are still fine, it's just hard to justify a lot of the investments required to make them worth keeping in a deck. Of course there are always exceptions, like Well of Lost Dreams is actually just busted in Sheoldred, the Apocalypse, but you're always going to have those synergies that pop up.
StA is one of two commanders I have found Well to be playable in. The other is Queza. I've cut it from Sheoldred, even, but despite my Queza deck being mono wheels, Well still works really well there.
It's 2 days after I watched the video, but I came back to say that this quadrant thing really helps me to assess cards! Many thanks for the introduction! (Just passed on an Arcane Bombardment since it would only help me win.)
You could build a Naya token and counter doubler or proliferate deck around Assemble the Legion where you accellerate the Muster counters, token output, or both. It wouldn't be a top tier deck, but you can tutor for the pieces that get it started easily enough.
I'm pretty sure Black Market is most wanted in an aristocrats shell. When you're saccing your own stuff anyway it's pretty nice. And you'll benefit from chump blocking anyone trying to break through your cheap creatures. Have had to use multiple D20s for the amount of counters Black Market has accrued in some games.
Hunter's Insight works well in my [[Skullbriar]]. It only gets better further into the game when card draw is needed more. You can almost always swing at someone for 8+ damage with the commander, and if it 's removed, recast later and try next turn
I disagree with Utvara, in my Ur Dragon Deck, it's a 7 drop off the top, but you throw this out there with Miirym and Roaming throne, it gets overwhelming very quickly. You can cheat this out with a cost reducer and/or Defense of the Heart. Even then, about the 5th or 6th turn, if this card comes out it develops a board presence very quickly.
I'd be a bit shocked if you're untapping with 7 mana in an Ur-dragon deck, Miirym and Roaming throne out and people's alarm bells of removal aren't on overdrive, they honestly deserve to lose if they let that board state continue to exist.
@@zsorens4570 agreed, though it can happen pretty quickly with defense of the heart and getting a two free creatures, keep a counterspell in and the entire package can (and has) come out turn 5, if you have a haste generator like Temur Asc or something similar it cascades quickly
I have hunters insight in my Sarulf, Realm Eater deck. It’s great because the board is always empty and my commander is always huge. Plus I have a bunch of cards that can give Sarulf trample or just double his power
It should be noted that As Foretold says "each turn". Any sort of deck that runs a ton of low cost instants can get a TON of value from this. 1 turn makes all your cantrips free. 2 turns gives you a free counterspell every turn. If it stopped there it would be fine.
I think these kinds of analysis are super helpful. Second Harvest seems like a no-brainer in a token deck, but it's often not worth it except in more niche decks. And I think that's the best way to think about it, the cards look generically good but in truth are more niche than they first appear. For example I built a Jacob deck that is mono-blue, plays lots of instants/sorceries, taps out frequently, and can stall out games. As Foretold is great in giving me that safety net of not needing to keep mana open for counterspells every turn cycle, and The Magic Mirror is much better when you cast for free/cheap and/or are bouncing creatures after everyone rebuilds. In other decks I'd play more ramp instead of Foretold, or something like Phyrexian Arena for card draw, but being locked to a single color changes how you evaluate cards.
The reason I don’t love this approach to commander is that it’s a four player game. Example: hunters insight. I’ve never had a problem with it at parity or losing because losing usually means one dude is in the lead, you make a deal with another losing player, hit them to dig for a board wipe. In anything below 8 or 9 power level it’s generally better to be in a behind position anyway. Drawing a long term value card instead of a bomb takes the focus off you. Next thing you know you’ve drawn 8 cards with the well of lost dreams or put 5 soldiers out with assemble the legion.
Fiery emancipation is an overrun effect, either for combat based decks or burn. It is a wincon. Win cons aren't useful except to win. It's not a "win more" card.
I am planning out my Aurelia rebuild, Fiery Emancipation and Kyren Negotiations are part of the plan. I'm going with a tokens theme and I think these 2 cards will work out well.
Agreed with most except for second harvest. If it was sorcery I would agree but the fact it’s an instant turns it from just wait to my next turn into good game. Let’s shuffle up the next one. A lot of people are quick to call potential enders like this “win more”. This is a I win card in the right decks. Takes you sneakily from parity or even behind to I win
Fiery emancipation has helped me quite a few times. My wife's merfolk deck has a tendency to be explosive. This let me wipe her board with blazing volley and burn my opponents out with burn spells. I'll never cut fiery emancipation. I play decks that aim to win on turn 7, it's never been a dead draw for me
sorry but hunter's insight really is a battle trick. you don't bother casting it until something gets through either through trample for more than 1 or you sneak a card in and they let it go. your not wanting to telegraph this play, just hey, i'm going to swing a creature at you for 3, that ok. and when they don't block, then use it t help refill your hand. but i do agree that this is not a great play normally, but some decks this is an easy fit. play rogue's passage or have other effects like it, boom easy add in.
Crucible of fire is scary when it comes out against me....but it doesn't feel like it can help turn the tables the same way fiery emancipation can....but it doesn't seem like a "win more" just a boost. It's great in parity and winning.
Soooo playing cards without having synergy and support, planning on how to utilise it, is bad. Check, got it. Many of these cards felt weird listening to what you say. I mean if I have triple damage, draw as damage is dealt or my dragons gets +3/3 I'm making sure that the deck uses that to the max. For example the lifegain draw card is excellent if you build a lifegain deck with a ton of ramp and enablers. The goal is to get slot of mana, alot of triggers and use alot of mana and refill your hand. Would I put it in a low curve aggro lifegain deck without alot of ramp? No. Drawing a ton of cards is easy on a green or gruul creature with trample and alot of power, while keeping up one or two mana for protection. You just don't send it in naked. Galtha says hello, slap you like a house in the face with fangs, draw two hands of cards. When do you do that? After you have ramped and set up your board and need to draw a fist of cards to ensure you can keep on trucking. Maybe I'm missing what you are aiming for but it mostly just feels like "don't play bad cards, just win".
Yea, definitely felt like just a lot of bad synergy and poor uses of the card as examples, you're not aiming for combat damage with fiery emancipation, you're not gonna use hunters insight without a clear way to get through, you're not gonna run second harvest to make a few food tokens, you're gonna run these cards where they provide max value. Maybe a slightly different spin on what the video should be aiming to illustrate could help. It also felt very focused on slower or high CMC cards more than anything else.
I have sheoldred in two decks, one is sauron lord of the rings, I loaded it with cycle cards, for archfiend of ifner, and if I loot her and reanimate her early usually there are a couple creatures already in the yard, not necessarily good creatures, but i also have the 1st urabrask, and jin gataxiios, for looting I have likeness looter, the orc that came with it, and Rhona, chainer and anger also for haste
I really enjoyed the concept of this video, but the almost static images of the 2x2 grid and card for long stretches is terribly boring. Maybe indicate which of the 4 squares in the grid you are focusing on?
Second Harvest in my Faldorn deck has overperformed almost everytime. I know it’s a specific scenario but that’s where some of these cards truly shine.
The main problem I have with this Quadrant Theory is that some of these cards can still be good in certsin decks, sometimes even regardless of some of the quadrants. The quadrant theory seems to be more of a generalization. It is a good way of understanding Magic and cards as a whole though and when to play or not play cards.
I have never understood why Nitpicking Nerds look at these issues so flatly as a "winning position". This is a 4 person game where between your next turn, you have 3 opponents who will try to stop you. I actually played HUNDREDS of games where drawing extra cards when I was "winning" at the table saved my ass because everyone else was focusing on me... Likewise, playing cards that look like Win-More is not always stupid in a 4-player game... After all, the difference between killing even 1 player and 2 players (not to mention the full win) is worth playing with such cards - Of course, the deck needs to be HEAVY balanced and only play with a few of these cards. A very good example here is Utvara Hellkite - it is a card that even plays in cEDH as a finisher, and you here claim that it is a pure "win-more"... it is one of the best finishers in red, you don't even need to have another dragon so that it becomes a threat by itself - and playing it in a "late" game, after Board-Wipe, is the perfect moment... Judging this card as "weak" because it doesn't work in "development" is simply contrary to even the basic rules for building a Commander deck. Additionally - there are a lot of effects in dragons that give Haste to dragons - which often survive Board Wips, and then Utvara actually wins the game ;) Second Harvest is good because it's Instant - so you play it with the end of the player in front of you in order to "Surprise" everyone by having a "mid" or even "light ahead" position in a "winning" position. And there are so many decks that can use it... And the fact that it is instant gives a huge advantage here - because you will NOT play it after a board wipe, but you haven't lost a card at all... you would if you played it. I don't understand this logic at all... Yes, of course, you no longer have your tokens - but your deck is designed to create them quickly - so you will soon be able to play to get ahead again. This card won me so many games in Lathril, Blade Of The Elves - as a surprise, these 4-5 tokens, suddenly I have 10 of them and I can use Ltarhil's ability (and ther is practically the same card in green, which also costs 4 mana but it's " elf-tribal" but sorcery - I dropped it from the deck very quickly in the testing phase - precisely for the reasons you described for Second Harvest). At the end, however, I appreciate the effort put into creating this - it's nice that there is a rating system, and it's nice that it shows how you look at the game. I may not agree with it, but I appreciate the contribution - and the fact that I can argue (even here in the post) why I disagree with it. So, good job - even though I don't support the opinion on most of the cards shown here (not as generally as I should specify ;P). Of course, my opinion is mine - and it can be just as wrong/imperfect/stupid - and that's why we love Commander, every player has an opinion :D
I use a lot of these cards and get plenty of value out of them. You really just need to know how to use them. Like As fortold is in my Alela, Cunning Conqueror deck and since I’m primarily trying to cast flash spells on opponents turns I get 3 free flash/instant spells per rotation! Fiery Emancipation in my Lathliss deck allows me to swing for 21 commander damage on the turn it comes out which is pretty cool. I also run Utvara and Crucible of Fire in that deck and I feel very called out by your video lol
Same, They've called out a few cards in the past that actually lead to wins in the past and its become a bit of a meme at the shop because one kid watches these guys religiously keeps saying NN said this card is good or bad and he loses. i don't like videos like this because with new players they treat it like gospel. the cards the mentioned can all be bad, great, or game breaking its just a matter of how you build the deck.
you don't even have to attack with Utvara to get tokens. i run it it Myriim, it's almost never an 8 drop, and if it is, it's worth it when you're getting 2, 3, or 4+ of them. obviously everything depends on your meta, but that card has won me a ton of games.
Well of lost dreams is medium to great in my Atraxa deck to refill my hand the turn after I cast Atraxa and after I’ve board wiped. Now that I think about it it’s terrible…. You’re right.😂
as foretold is in my ezuri proliferate deck. generally if i can get it out by or before turn 3 it'll have 5 counters the turn after if i have the right hand, otherwise it's discard fodder for other cards. black market is in my sheoldred deck that runs 13 board wipes. i never play it unless i can cast it and a board wipe the same turn, which my deck can do easily with all the mana doubler's and cheap rocks it has i play utvara in my miirym deck, with all the haste enablers like dragon tempest or temur ascendancy i can usually cast it and get a copy or 2 from it. then full swing and have like 10 6/6's in the back. and usually after playing a big dragon like that i'm either getting a bunch of cards, etb damage, or just kill everyone
There's not a single situation where I don't prefer City on Fire over fiery emancipation. Double is plenty and Convoke means you can get it out waaaaaaay faster to actually get use out of it
@@Fausto_4841 Exactly. The game should be goofy and over the top. Not legacy singleton. Just play cEDH or Highlander if optimized builds are the only priority.
You cast Hunter's Insight after blockers have been declared so flashing in a creature to try and block doesn't really work in that scenario. Still I don't play it in much decks, only my mono green deck and Xenagos.
Now i get that The Magic mirror is more conditional than other cards that go into the same slot, but concider it in a cantrip deck with alot of low-cost instant and sorceries in the deck, and taka a honest minute to compare it to The One Ring for example. it can easily come down on turn 3 in a mono blue deck. i.e. turn one > Consider turn 2: any mana rock turn 3: Frantic Search into magic mirror. bonus points when you have proliferate in your deck. So i would argue that situationally its better than the best draw card in the whole format. But i do agree that it is very situational, and its really rare when you get it on the field on turn 3. plus im sure there are more optimal ways to get it in even earlier, with gitaxian probes and all that, but even in a budget mono blue deck it can play better it can be better than one ring.
Argument could be made for Black Market Connections being at minimum yellow when losing. You Losing means someone’s winning. I’ve cast Black Market into a board wipe and launched myself into the front of the line.
Fiery Emancipation is fantastic in an Imodane Burn deck because Imodane The Pyrohammer benefits exponentially from damage multipliers and deals that damage to the entire board. If you cast Fiery Emancipation, each point of damage Imodane does to your opponents is multiplied by 9, and now it pushes you to the point where you could cast a one mana lightning bolt on someone's random soldier token, that spell does 9 damage to that soldier, and now Imodane deals 27 damage to all of your opponents. You might instantly win the game off just that. You could even tap out to cast Fiery Emancipation and then Mine Collapse for free by sacking a mountain, and then deal 45 damage to everybody. Fiery Emancipation is your win button in Imodane Burn. :3c
I think from a power level perspective, you're right, but the whole point of a casual format like commander is that we get to play these huge spells with big payoffs even if they're technically not the best. Everyone loves playing big win buttons like Akroma's will or Craterhoof even though from a power standpoint we should all be playing more wraths instead
Yeah Well of Lost Dreams was a 'better than nothing' card back when white card draw sucked. But that problem has been addressed with much better options.
You guys are right on the money with Black Market. The only success I have had with it is in my Tergrid deck and that has been spotty at best. If it were a 3 mana card, it may be worth it but often I just find I'm not getting my return on investment.
Hunter's Insight is not bad, though I guess it depends on your playgroup. I don't see it getting countered, and even if you only do 4 damage, you pay 3 mana for 4 cards, which is quite a good rate.
I run crucible of fire in my Goro-Goro and Satoru deck, because im flooding the board with dragons already, and it just means I can swing for lethal on at least one or two people at my table. It definitely is a winmore card, but in that deck it really does win more really good
Hunter's Insight is a cool card, always I played! always work! 5-6 cards for 3 mana, maybe you play with people that only have interaction all the time or super optimized/competitive decks. And... Second Harvest is a budget bomb in my Trostani deck.
A counterpart video showing cards where the ‘developing’ and ‘losing’ squares r green would be very interesting as well.
This is what I was thinking as well. A follow up of staples that are great for losing and developing would be interesting.
Counterspells, card draw, targeted removal, one-sided boardwipes come to mind. But I think the individual card makes more of a difference here. E.g. Dauthi Voidwalker has different stuff that makes it work in each situation - it's not one effect it's a combination.
@@japplek to be fair one sided wipes are always good to an extend so they are not realy worth talking about
Developing and Losing cards are fairly self evident, eg. Sol Ring and Angel's Grace.
Using what you've learned about applying quadrant theory to these specific cards, try evaluating some other cards to see what you learn.
Those squares dont mean anything other than theory. I challenge them to show a gameplay video that goes this way...... and Is this channel dedicated to cedh only...? whats wrong with “old magic” or just playing decks and cards for fun? Basically every card shown here can be powerful in the right deck or just add more fun and laughs to a game
It's worth pointing out that, by quadrant theory, cards like Craterhoof Behemoth, Thassa's Oracle, and other widely-played win conditions are also bad because they at most are good when Winning or at Parity. Not that people shouldn't run them, of course, it's just that sometimes the quadrants can't tell the entire story.
Facts. I do think that you can use quadrant theory well enough to choose between win cons for your deck
I think that’s what makes these cards bad. There are way better options in the winning category.
@@financecarter In any given deck, this is true. Some of these (Craterhoof particularly) are not notorious because they are the best wincons in the deck, but because they are the wincons that work in almost any deck.
Was about to say the same. In a Rakdos deck I don’t have a Craterhoof to drop. But Fiery Emancipation does the job nicely with my flying trampling demons who need to close out the game with raw damage. 20 damage becoming 60 makes the difference. Also paired with things like Archfiend, I can kill everyone out of nowhere. I can live with not being able to cast it early game just as I would Craterhoof or Overwhelming Stampede in a green deck!
I think the moral of the video is to not run too many "win more" cards in your deck
First off: Congratulations on the engagement!
While your ranking videos, funny shorts and other stuff are entertaining, videos like these are what I value most about your channel. When I started playing, these are what helped me understand the format, evaluate cards properly and build better decks. I like that you rate new cards honestly instead of hyping up all the useless Planeswalkers we get each set, like others do just for the views. Thank you for being a reliable source of information, staying in contact with your viewers and regularly producing entertaining content!
Hunter's insight is so good in stompy decks. The fact that it's an instant is what makes it good. There are alot of people who will just take 4- 5 damage if your attacking creature has trample because what's the point in losing a creature and still taking damage. That's when it shines because you can flash this in after they declare no blockers. So I think it's good in the parity and winning.
Well we know it can't be grave titan that card is a must 😂
Don't leave home without it!
@@NitpickingNerds yeah he dices and slices xd
"You gotta eat your veggies too" man what a great way to look at deck building. I definitely fall short of that a lot and often dont run enough lands or card draw and just too much ramp.. trying to get better at it and this channel is definitely helping to shed some light on the subject and help me out. Been watching for a while now but havent been lately.. now I'm kinda glad I didnt so I can go binge watch haha. Anyways great video guys, congrats on the new engagement, keep up the great work nerds! ❤
Appreciate the kind words, we're glad this video was helpful to you! We're always striving to get better at Commander and to find new ways to communicate our ideas :)
As foretold has one additional home, being flash/instantspeed decks due to its wording. If you have instants(like counterspells ir cantrips) in hand you can tap out and still use it on another turn for free.
Orvar liked that.
My friend and I recently got back into commander and your videos have been extremely helpful for me! I don’t win a lot against my friends but I’m having fun 😂❤😊
That's what it's all about! So glad you are enjoying yourself!
having fun is an important part of magic
Utvara Hellkite: the way I play this, it closes the game the turn it comes down because Terror of the Peaks, Dragon Tempest, and Scourge of Valkas exist.
In a vacuum though I would agree.
I've seen many games end when the Utvara comes out due to the same cards that Tenzin is pointing out as well as others that trigger as big creatures come into play.
My fiancé runs Utvara Hellkite in her Isshin deck which has a dragon reanimator subtheme, if she's not cheating it into play with Sneak Attack she's reanimating it and other dragons with Patriarch's Bidding so it's basically a Craterhoof Behemoth in red.
I love the science/strategy/rationale behind this kind of segment. It helps give a framework for newbie players to go by. Best video I've seen from this channel thus far.
My worst deck, but the one that I can't make myself give up on, is a Trostani deck that's all about pushing out BIG tokens. The key to improving it was making more things that got the deck going (i.e. creating tokens) and less payoffs. Well of Lost Dreams and Second Harvest were both among the cuts.
I used to have Well of Lost Dreams in my Darien deck but ended up taking it out a while ago. Any time I try to put it in a deck i still end up taking it out. Honestly its just... a bad card. Theres more efficient ways to draw cards.
Love As Foretold in my Doctor Who deck
Even when it first comes out, it can at least help me cheat out suspend cards with no mana value
Plus even 1-2 counters is super clutch for fueling my interaction and counterspells, since it lets you use its ability once per turn
Or even using it to cast your commander once you have enough
Then time traveling helps you build up those counters stupid quick. Last time I had it out, I had like 12 counters on it. Was awesome casting my biggest stuff.
you said counterspells, so i immediately disregarded the rest of the paragraph
It's funny with crucible of fire because your thoughts on this card echo my initial reaction to it... except every time I've used it in my ur dragon app it felt amazing and any time it was used against me it sucked a lot. It works really well as a way to help the dragons survive to get more, and its amazing as long as you have creatures. It's a strong finisher, which should be its purpose. It's basically a permanent overrun (given dragons have flying). On top of that it makes dragons more intimidating, so it can turn a losing board with a single dragon into a near-parity. Way better than I think you give it credit for.
It's just that you can play so many other dragons that do basically the same but... are dragons themselves.
Thrakkus the Butcher = when it attacks, double each dragon's power
Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury = Whenever a dragon you control attacks, creatures you control get +1/+0 until end of turn (attacking with three dragons = +3/+0
Lozhan, Dragons' Legacy = Whenever you cast an Adventure or Dragon spell, Lozhan, Dragons’ Legacy deals damage equal to that spell’s mana value to any target that isn’t a commander
Wrathful Red Dragon = Whenever a Dragon you control is dealt damage, it deals that much damage to any target that isn’t a Dragon
Dromoka, the Eternal = Whenever a Dragon you control attacks, bolster 2
Like... instead of playing enchantments that make your dragons stronger, just play DRAGONS that make your Dragons stronger. Not only does that mean you'll generally have more stuff on the board that actually needs to get answered, it also means you have more synnergies. A Kolaghan, the Storms Fury doesn't just make your other dragons better, it also gets better from other dragons. Crucible of Fire doesn't do that. It makes other dragons stronger, but never gets stronger itself... because it' just an enchantment that sits there. Dragons are basically slivers now.
What also compounds this is if you play The Ur-Dragon, that every Dragon will be cheaper by one mana. It's actually incredible how much of a difference that makes. If you play any acceleation at all turn 1/2, you'll have 4 mana available on turn 3. With Ur-Dragon's emminence ability I can now cast any 5-mana dragon on turn 3. Then follow up up with a second dragon turn 4 and most of the time that's already a huge issue for your opponents. I'd rather have two dragons than one dragon and a crucible.
And finally: Giving your dragons +3/+3 doesn't really prevent them from getting killed. Like sure, they're a bit tougher but they will STILL die basically to any boardwipe and occasionally survive a red sweeper (even then there are exceptions with Star of Extinction and Blasphemous Act which deal so much damage that even high toughness doesn't save your dragons). Targeted removal most of the time exiles or destroys or bounces.
So I'd much rather play something like Steely Resolve (As Steely Resolve enters the battlefield, choose a creature type. Creatures of the chosen type have shroud.) to protect my dragons from single target removal. It's much cheaper at 2 mana and is way better at protecting my dragons than a +3/+3 buff ever could.
@@PaulSzkibikHere's the thing though- most field wipes kill creatures, but its a rare field wipe that destroys enchantments. If your whole focus is on summoning dragons, any deck with a solid and reliable creature counter can put it out. Having a few enchantments and artifacts can make important effects harder to remove. And when I say theyre more survivable, Im talking about combat- people will think a lot harder about attacking you if you have an 8/8 or 9/9 than they will about a 5/5 or 6/6, as there are far fewer things that can survive that. On top of all that, if someone brings out targeted enchantment removal, this one looks bad enough on the surface that people won't destroy it over others like kindred discovery or damage engines. Literally you're expressing my starting viewpoint on that card, but the more I've used it, the more I realized its a surprisingly strong card that goes well beyond first impressions. Its easy to sleep on. (Ill also add that it makes Ur dragon 2-shot someone)
Second harvest goes in my Volo deck because even if I only have 1 or 2 copy tokens, the token copies are usually very valuable and at least 4 mana. Getting an extra 1 or 2 copies of something like acidic slime or peregrine drake, let alone craterhoof, is pretty huge.
Yea its clearly a card that needs to be put into specific decks that create a lot of token copies, not treasures/clues/foods.
Second harvest in my omnath and lathril deck, it’s a great card there
Why not just play a clone at that point?
Higher ceiling to get 3+ tokens that lead to a win/immense value with an acceptable floor of functionally clone
Basicly what you guys are telling us.
Every card fits into it's own category, make sure you know where every card goes. This helps balancing your deck over time.
This is such an interesting way of looking at the value of a card not in a vacuum, not in a specific situation, but in the 4 states a game can be based on flow
I have Second Harvest in my Rin & Siri deck. It makes a ton of tokens and since it’s an Instant I can play it on an opponents End Step. It has been dead in my hand, but not usually.😊
Hunter's insight has drawn me more cards than I can count. The dies to removal argument you make for it could be said for anything...
They talk about flashing in creatures like you can't wait to move to damage before casting it...
I play it in Kalamax and it regularly draws me tons of cards. But I guess he's sorta tailor made for it other than evasion. Just slap something on him, it's not like you should be attacking in before that anyway.
Exactly and saying it doesn't help with parody after a board wipe Makes no sense play a creature with haste or play multiple creatures. And the next turn use hunter's insight and hit Whoever you can get it by with.
Exacery! Everything is bad except removal cards apparently.
@@em688exactly, its an instant for a reason. If hunters insight was a sorcery, it would probably be a bad card. But its not
I run Fiery Emancipation in my mono red burn decks such as torbran or Neheb
There are decks you can run in it , but most times its win more
I’m a little confused. You guys preach that fun comes before winning, however you make the most in depth edh breakdowns and say don’t spend 6 mana on fiery emancipation or grave titan cause it’s not powerful enough. I’m getting mixed messages.
I feel like this channel has gotten way more spike-y since Joe left.
I feel like they are trying to appeal to a more serious audience. You can’t run a business appealing to just one singular demographic. To draw attention to your channel, you need to speak to more people rather than just one type of person.
I agree with both harris and carter. But I will say this: There is one flaw with this quadrant theory. It's assuming that you're hard casting all of these spells. Yes, most of the time you are, but there are some decks where it doesn't apply. Either way, for the most part, this quadrant theory makes a lot of sense. Casting higher cost spells early in the game will slow you down a lot or screw you unless they have a very powerful upside.
Fun comes before winning, but you know what's the most fun? Winning.
Door of Destiny looks nuts for a zombie deck. Gravecrawler makes it insane
Zur the enchanter + as Foretold is fantastic. Also it says “once EACH turn…” not once on your turn. Meaning it can turn counter spell into Better Force of will. In 2 turns, free cast a one cost spell like. Esper Sentinel, Land Tax, Mystic remora, sol ring, etc. then boom turn 2+ your looking at free counter spells and better from then on. But after the first counter spell they will remove that shit.
Thanks for the free egdar upgrade guide. I was looking at cards to cut and you just listed 3 that I had in the list
There’s a reason I only play fiery emancipation in my gishath deck, mostly cause it’s cool and also because gishath has 7 power and trample
I have it in my Atarka deck. Makes her an immediate kill and the rest of my dragons damn near unstoppable.
Same reason I play it in Etali, big dumb dino doing big dumb things 😂
@@r.a.w.780 Exactly. Besides mana dorks I don't know if I have a dragon that deals less than 4 damage (I've got probably 1 that does 4) So i'll take it.
@@jedbex7070 I really enjoy Fiery eman, I think i've won every game I played it 😂
I play it with Kaervek the merciless and love it lol
I use fiery emancipation in burn....or to turn my 6 mana banefire into a kill spell. I dunno I would never slot it into a creature deck with the idea that my 1/1 is going to suddenly accomplish something. In something like hinata where I am controlling the board, this thing let's you output damage while holding up mana. Something like Immodane for example.
Methinks they don't fully understand how to use Fiery Emancipation
Well of Lost Dreams is goated in a lifegain deck. My Lyra Dawnbringer deck uses it heavily, but its definitely only brcause there's heavy lifegain synergy.
I used to use Well of Lost Dreams in my Darien deck but never got it to work because I almost always had a better card in hand. The commitment to using it was too much mana.
Well of lost dreams....anything (other than skull clamp) that requires me to pay additional mana to draw, I avoid. I want my draws to come free with a trigger, or directly from the spell I cast. I rarely have extra mana for these triggers. My turns are planned out so I'm completely out, or I'm holding up mana for responses
Fiery emancipation is a finisher. You dont just play it and leave it sitting on the board, you play it once you have a decent board state and can just get though with a ton of dmg to win.
They covered this.
yeah... that's what they said
I play this in my Ovika deck. I cast it after my commander is on the board and then lights out. Of course I already have things on the board like Cavalcade of Calamity, Raid Bombardment, Impact Tremors, Goblin Bombardment etc. . .
@@dandonaldson9149 according to edhrec only 4% of red deck are running it so really i dont think it belongs on this list of things you need to cut from your deck. there are a couple other cards i dont agree with on this list ether.
"I can't imagine a way to have this make more than 4 tokens with this in the first five turns" - no one who has ever played against a chatterfang deck
The takeaway is that if you feel disapointment drawing a card you should probably take it out.
Fiery Emancipation is actually a really funny case because I'm (probably) putting one into my budget Imodane, the Pyrohammer deck because it triples twice. That's pretty much the only case. Might swap it with Isengard Unleashed though.
Well of lost dreams is actually fairly decent in a Saheeli deck if you are generating treasure tokens. Otherwise, it's pretty inefficient. On a side note, I can't remember if I've tried The Magic Mirror in my Locust God deck, but maximum hand size is always fun in that deck, so I might give it a whirl since I am casting draw spells the first few turns anyways, and with a lot of wheel effects, it's an easy pitch if you don't need it.
Why would a Saheeli deck play this over artifact draw synergies? Life gain isnt the decks MO. Youre better off with Jhoira, Sai, or skull clamp
@@phoenixgemini42 I might have been on drugs when I wrote this....not sure.
I feel the only one of these that's "wrong" is Well of Lost Dreams, solely because it's not really meant to do almost anything y'all graded it on. It's incidental card draw, meant for you to dump some excess mana into occasionally. Is it being overplayed? Yeah, probably, because by itself it's not gonna do much. It should only go in decks where nearly every spell/effect has a random "gain 1 life" tacked on, but that's part of the fun of EDH. Finding those janky cards that your deck can exploit (such as in UG with Horizon Chimera out or in a Queza, Augur of Agonies deck).
Everything else, spot on (though I'd offer a small counterpoint and say Reya really only goes in reanimator decks anyway, where you're probably cheating her into play for way less than 9-mana).
it's one of my favorite cards in my Dina deck. i could sneeze and i'd gain life with that deck, and card draw is a little lacking. if it's a deck that's only going to draw 3-4 cards it's trash, but if it draws you +15?
As Foretold is amazing in decks that play a lot of cheap instants. It says, "once each turn," so that includes your opponents' turns. Of course it's best if As Foretold comes out early so you can cast bigger spells for free, but even if it comes down late in a deck with a lot of cheap instants you can cast plenty of 1-2 cost spells for free each turn cycle. I really love using As Foretold to hold up interaction. I might be tapped out but have a Miscast, Pongify, or Counterspell in hand ready to go
Hunter’s Insight is great in voltron decks where you’re running evasion anyway.
If you think I’m removing Utvara from my dragon deck, you need to put down your crack pipe.
If you’re running a Themberchaud deck, Fiery Emancipation usually signals death. Usually a Lightning Bolt for 60-90 damage is following it. That card gives me Thumberchuds (The sour belches)
As a fan of mono black it saddens me just how not good Black Market is... it seems good at first and it rewards me for doing what I want to do, things dying, but I've never had it pay off in any meaningful way and I ended up cutting it from all my mono-black decks. In my experience by the time I got it down I was essentially at the point where I didn't need the benefit any longer.
It definitely can't deliver on some of the awesome promises it makes when you first read the card 😂
I've used it with some success when trying to ramp into a huge torment of hailfire. It's not great but has some fun moments.
I think there is an argument for some of these that makes them good early game when you think about the politics. A few of the 4/5 mana cards mentions come down and do nothing initially which on the face of it aren’t great, however they also signal ‘I am not the threat’. In many decks that aren’t designed to take the game head on early, and equally a lot of newer players to magic might find it in their favour, playing these cards while someone else puts down a big problem can buy you almost 2/3 turns to build advantage from the shadows. I definitely agree with cutting the ‘win more’ cards though (or finding holes in a deck where you have nothing good to play when loosing)- they are hard to part with, and sometimes hard to spot, and this quadrant idea certainly helps to identify them.
Assemble the legion works with Ceasar, Legions Emperor because each turns it gives you tokens to sac. So if you get wiped, you can still cast Caesar next turn and have some tokens thanks to Assemble. That´s why I still play it in that deck, however, I have considered taking it our for something faster.
Crucible of fire is a must in my dragons build. Mine is Blue/Red with Ganax, Astral Hunter/Feywild Visitor background pair(Dragons and their treasures). The Feywild Visitor shits out 1/1 faerie dragons all game long basically. Making the meh 1/1's into 4/4's. Gets especially nuts when you have one of the cards out that makes dragons or creatures etb'ing deal damage equal to their power to something. Crucible puts a ton of pressure on the board in this deck and pretty much always has a constant stream of 1/1's to buff and not relying on only full cost dragons. But yes do agree in any standard "Pay full cost for 1 fat dragon at a time" type deck it's really not going to pull it's weight as much.
Cool visualization, although I think an unwritten benefit of some cards appearing "bad" in the early game is the whole "under the radar" side of edh which I think is powerful as well.
Well of lost dreams is literally the best card draw spell if you are a life gain deck. Its flexible, letting you only pay 1 for 1 scaling into huge draws after you dumb your hand (I've literally drawn 10+ multiple times). More importantly, as long as you are using the correct life gain cards that are trigger effects, you can do it in other people's turns after you have made your plays and have a mana or two left that you didn't spend. This allows you to maximize your efficiency. Could not be more incorrect on this one.
The argument of a spell being "bad" because the creture it targets can be killed and the spell fizzles is way too generic. The One Ring, Dockside, Craterhoof, all these cards can be countered, so that makes them bad right? Smothering Tithe and Rhystic Studies are bad when losing because people who are winning will pay the 2/1 right?
Hunter's Insight has a higher setup cost than the other spells you mentioned; you need a creature with 3+ power and you also need to attack and it also needs to deal at least 3 damage. I think Mia compared it to Harmonize, which isn't a great card, but it has zero setup cost. Everything does die to counterspells/removal, but in the case of cards like Hunter's Insight, you are also exposing another card to removal as your opponents are offered a much more tempting trade of a 2-for-1
Utvara Hellkite is so amazing in my Miirym Sentinel Wyrm deck tho. 8 mana (90% of the time 1 or 2 mana (from sneak attack or other cheat effects)) for 2+ 6/6 that make double or more the 6/6 dragons
And my miirym deck is getting close to optimal that I can cast my 6 mana command on turn 2 so followed by multiple 6+ drops on turn 4 or 5
I like As Foretold in the precon it reprinted in. The time travel mechanic does make this a threat, since you're usually getting other time counter manipulation as well as this. But I agree it requires a deck that already works with its counters very well to be useful. Also, it goes great with flash and instants. A lot of people assume it's just a free spell on your turn but it's a free spell each turn.
With Marisi out and hunters insight, it's possibly green on everything but losing. Maybe developing it's still yellow
By the way, your bottom template thing where you put your current topic looks amazing ❤
I think you're right in most cases about as fortold. Its awesome in my oloro upkeep tribal deck...one of my favorite cards there, and its crazy good in mono blue control, not having to leave up all the mana for counterspells, i can use as foretold to get free value. Its dope, my kess grixis control deck adores it, and my sen triplets deck does well with it. But in other decs that really only focus on doing things on my turn....yeah, not great. Parity breaker for sure, developing 100%, and its saved me a few times....casting narsets reversal on expropriate is a rude thing to do. They forget you can cast a free spell with it, and you slam a clutch card on them.
Assemble the Legion is a superfriends card. It is rather good for protecting your walkers and plays super well with proliferate, and eventually wins the game by itself. r/w agro type decks can do better for certain, but in commodore guff/ other superfriends decks with red mana....one hell of a roleplayer!
Hunter's Insight is....awesome? Do you play it in a deck that can't reliably expect to be getting through with a 4-5 power creature, likely one with hexproof....no...you dont. In a deck that expects to be able to do that...draw 5 for 3 is pretty good I hear.
I agree that crucible, fiery emancipation, reya and magic mirror area all pretty bad, and second harvest and utrvara are pretty win-more. All the other cards are great card in the decks that they can fill a vital role in
I've never personally seen anyone use assemble the legion but without help it seems absolutely horrendous 5 mana to get a single 1/1 on your next turn seems so bad off the bat. Also b/c its slow it feels like it just gives your opponents time to find answers for when it gets to be actually good.
I do still run Utvara, but in my Ur Dragon deck so he's cheaper. That deck relies hard on Dragon ETBs, so the ability to basically double my Dragons is usually a finishing move. It triggers stuff like Terror of the Peaks, Dragon Tempest, and Scourge of Valkas like crazy.
It turns my deck from single-player removal to winning. I am aware most combat-focused Dragon decks don't need this, but Dragon ETB effects are the name of my game. That deck has no intention of waiting for next turn to get value off any Dragon
As I've been building and testing more decks recently I've realized more and more that doubling season, parallel lives, and anointed procession are win more type cards. It makes me sad but they do not make the cut as often... mondrak,, adrix and nev, and ojer taq have been making the cut more often strictly because they are creatures so they have much better synergy.
Something I think is a little underrated which corner cards like these is: "How Immediate of a Response is Needed?"
I feel there are a lot of cards in MTG that don't exactly do anything the turn (or first couple turns) they hit the field but WILL get out of control if left alone. So I think there is something to be said for running /certain/ cards as a sort of "Removal Bait" that if unanswered will aid you in winning the game.
Also you should never run these cards unless you deck can capitalize off them and also enable them. Black Market shouldn't be in anything that doesn't sac its own creatures- Well of Lost Dreams probably only belongs in decks that already capitalize off lifegain like Trelasarra or Oloro.
10/10 video as always. 😎👌
I definitely agree with these cards, even though they are still fine, it's just hard to justify a lot of the investments required to make them worth keeping in a deck. Of course there are always exceptions, like Well of Lost Dreams is actually just busted in Sheoldred, the Apocalypse, but you're always going to have those synergies that pop up.
StA is one of two commanders I have found Well to be playable in. The other is Queza. I've cut it from Sheoldred, even, but despite my Queza deck being mono wheels, Well still works really well there.
It's 2 days after I watched the video, but I came back to say that this quadrant thing really helps me to assess cards! Many thanks for the introduction! (Just passed on an Arcane Bombardment since it would only help me win.)
You could build a Naya token and counter doubler or proliferate deck around Assemble the Legion where you accellerate the Muster counters, token output, or both. It wouldn't be a top tier deck, but you can tutor for the pieces that get it started easily enough.
I'm pretty sure Black Market is most wanted in an aristocrats shell. When you're saccing your own stuff anyway it's pretty nice. And you'll benefit from chump blocking anyone trying to break through your cheap creatures. Have had to use multiple D20s for the amount of counters Black Market has accrued in some games.
Shirei jizzes with this card.
Hunter's Insight works well in my [[Skullbriar]]. It only gets better further into the game when card draw is needed more. You can almost always swing at someone for 8+ damage with the commander, and if it 's removed, recast later and try next turn
I disagree with Utvara, in my Ur Dragon Deck, it's a 7 drop off the top, but you throw this out there with Miirym and Roaming throne, it gets overwhelming very quickly. You can cheat this out with a cost reducer and/or Defense of the Heart. Even then, about the 5th or 6th turn, if this card comes out it develops a board presence very quickly.
As they said, when you’re winning it’s great
I'd be a bit shocked if you're untapping with 7 mana in an Ur-dragon deck, Miirym and Roaming throne out and people's alarm bells of removal aren't on overdrive, they honestly deserve to lose if they let that board state continue to exist.
@@zsorens4570 agreed, though it can happen pretty quickly with defense of the heart and getting a two free creatures, keep a counterspell in and the entire package can (and has) come out turn 5, if you have a haste generator like Temur Asc or something similar it cascades quickly
I have hunters insight in my Sarulf, Realm Eater deck. It’s great because the board is always empty and my commander is always huge. Plus I have a bunch of cards that can give Sarulf trample or just double his power
It should be noted that As Foretold says "each turn". Any sort of deck that runs a ton of low cost instants can get a TON of value from this. 1 turn makes all your cantrips free. 2 turns gives you a free counterspell every turn. If it stopped there it would be fine.
I think these kinds of analysis are super helpful. Second Harvest seems like a no-brainer in a token deck, but it's often not worth it except in more niche decks.
And I think that's the best way to think about it, the cards look generically good but in truth are more niche than they first appear. For example I built a Jacob deck that is mono-blue, plays lots of instants/sorceries, taps out frequently, and can stall out games. As Foretold is great in giving me that safety net of not needing to keep mana open for counterspells every turn cycle, and The Magic Mirror is much better when you cast for free/cheap and/or are bouncing creatures after everyone rebuilds. In other decks I'd play more ramp instead of Foretold, or something like Phyrexian Arena for card draw, but being locked to a single color changes how you evaluate cards.
The reason I don’t love this approach to commander is that it’s a four player game.
Example: hunters insight. I’ve never had a problem with it at parity or losing because losing usually means one dude is in the lead, you make a deal with another losing player, hit them to dig for a board wipe.
In anything below 8 or 9 power level it’s generally better to be in a behind position anyway. Drawing a long term value card instead of a bomb takes the focus off you. Next thing you know you’ve drawn 8 cards with the well of lost dreams or put 5 soldiers out with assemble the legion.
Fiery emancipation is an overrun effect, either for combat based decks or burn. It is a wincon. Win cons aren't useful except to win. It's not a "win more" card.
I am planning out my Aurelia rebuild, Fiery Emancipation and Kyren Negotiations are part of the plan. I'm going with a tokens theme and I think these 2 cards will work out well.
I agree with black market 100%! I used to play it until one game I drew it right after a board wipe happened. Learned my lesson!
Agreed with most except for second harvest. If it was sorcery I would agree but the fact it’s an instant turns it from just wait to my next turn into good game. Let’s shuffle up the next one. A lot of people are quick to call potential enders like this “win more”. This is a I win card in the right decks. Takes you sneakily from parity or even behind to I win
Fiery emancipation has helped me quite a few times. My wife's merfolk deck has a tendency to be explosive. This let me wipe her board with blazing volley and burn my opponents out with burn spells. I'll never cut fiery emancipation.
I play decks that aim to win on turn 7, it's never been a dead draw for me
sorry but hunter's insight really is a battle trick. you don't bother casting it until something gets through either through trample for more than 1 or you sneak a card in and they let it go. your not wanting to telegraph this play, just hey, i'm going to swing a creature at you for 3, that ok. and when they don't block, then use it t help refill your hand.
but i do agree that this is not a great play normally, but some decks this is an easy fit. play rogue's passage or have other effects like it, boom easy add in.
Crucible of fire is scary when it comes out against me....but it doesn't feel like it can help turn the tables the same way fiery emancipation can....but it doesn't seem like a "win more" just a boost. It's great in parity and winning.
Hunter's Insight is busted in Treebeard, especially when you want to keep your cmc low.
Soooo playing cards without having synergy and support, planning on how to utilise it, is bad. Check, got it.
Many of these cards felt weird listening to what you say. I mean if I have triple damage, draw as damage is dealt or my dragons gets +3/3 I'm making sure that the deck uses that to the max.
For example the lifegain draw card is excellent if you build a lifegain deck with a ton of ramp and enablers. The goal is to get slot of mana, alot of triggers and use alot of mana and refill your hand. Would I put it in a low curve aggro lifegain deck without alot of ramp? No.
Drawing a ton of cards is easy on a green or gruul creature with trample and alot of power, while keeping up one or two mana for protection. You just don't send it in naked. Galtha says hello, slap you like a house in the face with fangs, draw two hands of cards. When do you do that? After you have ramped and set up your board and need to draw a fist of cards to ensure you can keep on trucking.
Maybe I'm missing what you are aiming for but it mostly just feels like "don't play bad cards, just win".
Yea, definitely felt like just a lot of bad synergy and poor uses of the card as examples, you're not aiming for combat damage with fiery emancipation, you're not gonna use hunters insight without a clear way to get through, you're not gonna run second harvest to make a few food tokens, you're gonna run these cards where they provide max value. Maybe a slightly different spin on what the video should be aiming to illustrate could help. It also felt very focused on slower or high CMC cards more than anything else.
I have sheoldred in two decks, one is sauron lord of the rings, I loaded it with cycle cards, for archfiend of ifner, and if I loot her and reanimate her early usually there are a couple creatures already in the yard, not necessarily good creatures, but i also have the 1st urabrask, and jin gataxiios, for looting I have likeness looter, the orc that came with it, and Rhona, chainer and anger also for haste
The other deck is negan, with tergrid, but she's probably the next 1 or 2 cards I may cut
I really enjoyed the concept of this video, but the almost static images of the 2x2 grid and card for long stretches is terribly boring. Maybe indicate which of the 4 squares in the grid you are focusing on?
Second Harvest in my Faldorn deck has overperformed almost everytime. I know it’s a specific scenario but that’s where some of these cards truly shine.
The main problem I have with this Quadrant Theory is that some of these cards can still be good in certsin decks, sometimes even regardless of some of the quadrants. The quadrant theory seems to be more of a generalization. It is a good way of understanding Magic and cards as a whole though and when to play or not play cards.
I have never understood why Nitpicking Nerds look at these issues so flatly as a "winning position".
This is a 4 person game where between your next turn, you have 3 opponents who will try to stop you. I actually played HUNDREDS of games where drawing extra cards when I was "winning" at the table saved my ass because everyone else was focusing on me...
Likewise, playing cards that look like Win-More is not always stupid in a 4-player game... After all, the difference between killing even 1 player and 2 players (not to mention the full win) is worth playing with such cards - Of course, the deck needs to be HEAVY balanced and only play with a few of these cards. A very good example here is Utvara Hellkite - it is a card that even plays in cEDH as a finisher, and you here claim that it is a pure "win-more"... it is one of the best finishers in red, you don't even need to have another dragon so that it becomes a threat by itself - and playing it in a "late" game, after Board-Wipe, is the perfect moment... Judging this card as "weak" because it doesn't work in "development" is simply contrary to even the basic rules for building a Commander deck. Additionally - there are a lot of effects in dragons that give Haste to dragons - which often survive Board Wips, and then Utvara actually wins the game ;)
Second Harvest is good because it's Instant - so you play it with the end of the player in front of you in order to "Surprise" everyone by having a "mid" or even "light ahead" position in a "winning" position. And there are so many decks that can use it... And the fact that it is instant gives a huge advantage here - because you will NOT play it after a board wipe, but you haven't lost a card at all... you would if you played it. I don't understand this logic at all... Yes, of course, you no longer have your tokens - but your deck is designed to create them quickly - so you will soon be able to play to get ahead again. This card won me so many games in Lathril, Blade Of The Elves - as a surprise, these 4-5 tokens, suddenly I have 10 of them and I can use Ltarhil's ability (and ther is practically the same card in green, which also costs 4 mana but it's " elf-tribal" but sorcery - I dropped it from the deck very quickly in the testing phase - precisely for the reasons you described for Second Harvest).
At the end, however, I appreciate the effort put into creating this - it's nice that there is a rating system, and it's nice that it shows how you look at the game. I may not agree with it, but I appreciate the contribution - and the fact that I can argue (even here in the post) why I disagree with it. So, good job - even though I don't support the opinion on most of the cards shown here (not as generally as I should specify ;P).
Of course, my opinion is mine - and it can be just as wrong/imperfect/stupid - and that's why we love Commander, every player has an opinion :D
I use a lot of these cards and get plenty of value out of them. You really just need to know how to use them. Like As fortold is in my Alela, Cunning Conqueror deck and since I’m primarily trying to cast flash spells on opponents turns I get 3 free flash/instant spells per rotation! Fiery Emancipation in my Lathliss deck allows me to swing for 21 commander damage on the turn it comes out which is pretty cool. I also run Utvara and Crucible of Fire in that deck and I feel very called out by your video lol
Same, They've called out a few cards in the past that actually lead to wins in the past and its become a bit of a meme at the shop because one kid watches these guys religiously keeps saying NN said this card is good or bad and he loses. i don't like videos like this because with new players they treat it like gospel. the cards the mentioned can all be bad, great, or game breaking its just a matter of how you build the deck.
you don't even have to attack with Utvara to get tokens. i run it it Myriim, it's almost never an 8 drop, and if it is, it's worth it when you're getting 2, 3, or 4+ of them. obviously everything depends on your meta, but that card has won me a ton of games.
Well of lost dreams is medium to great in my Atraxa deck to refill my hand the turn after I cast Atraxa and after I’ve board wiped. Now that I think about it it’s terrible…. You’re right.😂
I just picked that card up today (out of a pile) and was like “I can’t remember why I don’t run this?” And set it back with my bulk.
as foretold is in my ezuri proliferate deck. generally if i can get it out by or before turn 3 it'll have 5 counters the turn after if i have the right hand, otherwise it's discard fodder for other cards.
black market is in my sheoldred deck that runs 13 board wipes. i never play it unless i can cast it and a board wipe the same turn, which my deck can do easily with all the mana doubler's and cheap rocks it has
i play utvara in my miirym deck, with all the haste enablers like dragon tempest or temur ascendancy i can usually cast it and get a copy or 2 from it. then full swing and have like 10 6/6's in the back. and usually after playing a big dragon like that i'm either getting a bunch of cards, etb damage, or just kill everyone
I have an Oloro deck that gets a lot of mileage out of well of lost dreams since it runs a fair bit of mana rocks and has garanteed life gain
There's not a single situation where I don't prefer City on Fire over fiery emancipation. Double is plenty and Convoke means you can get it out waaaaaaay faster to actually get use out of it
Winning more is one of my main goals in Commander lol.
why even play commander if you can't win more or overkill your opponents? lol
@@Fausto_4841 Exactly. The game should be goofy and over the top. Not legacy singleton. Just play cEDH or Highlander if optimized builds are the only priority.
You cast Hunter's Insight after blockers have been declared so flashing in a creature to try and block doesn't really work in that scenario. Still I don't play it in much decks, only my mono green deck and Xenagos.
"Second Harvest" would be great in me Anikthea deck, didn't even know that existed till now!
It can be solid in the late game!
Now i get that The Magic mirror is more conditional than other cards that go into the same slot, but concider it in a cantrip deck with alot of low-cost instant and sorceries in the deck, and taka a honest minute to compare it to The One Ring for example. it can easily come down on turn 3 in a mono blue deck. i.e. turn one > Consider turn 2: any mana rock turn 3: Frantic Search into magic mirror. bonus points when you have proliferate in your deck. So i would argue that situationally its better than the best draw card in the whole format. But i do agree that it is very situational, and its really rare when you get it on the field on turn 3. plus im sure there are more optimal ways to get it in even earlier, with gitaxian probes and all that, but even in a budget mono blue deck it can play better it can be better than one ring.
Argument could be made for Black Market Connections being at minimum yellow when losing. You Losing means someone’s winning. I’ve cast Black Market into a board wipe and launched myself into the front of the line.
Utvara is fun to cheat out with Magda especially if you have a haste enabler but at times I can't believe I ever used to hard cast it .
8:48 What do you mean? This card is pretty good. It’s one of the cheapest ways to give all your changelings a solid boost
Fiery Emancipation is fantastic in an Imodane Burn deck because Imodane The Pyrohammer benefits exponentially from damage multipliers and deals that damage to the entire board. If you cast Fiery Emancipation, each point of damage Imodane does to your opponents is multiplied by 9, and now it pushes you to the point where you could cast a one mana lightning bolt on someone's random soldier token, that spell does 9 damage to that soldier, and now Imodane deals 27 damage to all of your opponents. You might instantly win the game off just that. You could even tap out to cast Fiery Emancipation and then Mine Collapse for free by sacking a mountain, and then deal 45 damage to everybody. Fiery Emancipation is your win button in Imodane Burn. :3c
I think from a power level perspective, you're right, but the whole point of a casual format like commander is that we get to play these huge spells with big payoffs even if they're technically not the best. Everyone loves playing big win buttons like Akroma's will or Craterhoof even though from a power standpoint we should all be playing more wraths instead
Yeah Well of Lost Dreams was a 'better than nothing' card back when white card draw sucked. But that problem has been addressed with much better options.
I don't know how helpful this graph is... most cards won't score well when you stop and evaluate them like this.
As foretold is still great in a Suspend-themed and cascade themed decks for those 0cmc cards that you cannot cast in from the hand.
You guys are right on the money with Black Market. The only success I have had with it is in my Tergrid deck and that has been spotty at best. If it were a 3 mana card, it may be worth it but often I just find I'm not getting my return on investment.
Do you play an alternative?
Hunter's Insight is not bad, though I guess it depends on your playgroup. I don't see it getting countered, and even if you only do 4 damage, you pay 3 mana for 4 cards, which is quite a good rate.
I run crucible of fire in my Goro-Goro and Satoru deck, because im flooding the board with dragons already, and it just means I can swing for lethal on at least one or two people at my table. It definitely is a winmore card, but in that deck it really does win more really good
Hunters insight with Zilortha is crazy. No one blocks those big tramplers, she's cheap to bring out, guaranteed seven draw
Hunter's Insight is a cool card, always I played! always work! 5-6 cards for 3 mana, maybe you play with people that only have interaction all the time or super optimized/competitive decks. And... Second Harvest is a budget bomb in my Trostani deck.
These videos really help me become a better deckbuilder, thank you!
I hope the visual aids were helpful as well!