Good stuff, man. I might have to try this myself with my Marantz 2230 that I had mentioned earlier. I want to compare original caps, new electrolytics, and new films in the preamp. This topic will never stop being talked about and it will always be up to the listener to decide what they like best, but what you've done here has certainly helped me have a more educated opinion on the subject, and hopefully others as well. Has anyone wished YOU peace, joy, happiness, and good health in your life lately? I certainly do. Thanks!
50 year old (with mild tinnitus), got No.1 was direct, couldn't hear the difference between film and electrolytic, but can say the main difference I do know between film and electrlytic is about 50 cents.
So people guessed through youtube compression, which sounded better, film vs. electrolytic vs. direct? That is really strange to me since youtube audio quality is far from high-end, how people can find those nuances through their compressed audio?
Thanks again for this Tony...very interesting. I thought the tell was the wider soundstage on #1. #2 and #3 were quite similar as many mentioned. I've been a recording engineer for 30 years and we do these shootouts all the time with audio plug-ins (which used to be hardware) and speakers. We usually loop short segments through #1, #2, #3, etc, rather than a continuous track which can change in tonality right on a comparison switch. I've done recapping of amps and receivers and really should record the output for a pre/post comparison some time. Almost always on first listen, the details in the dynamics are improved. When I do speaker crossovers I'll listen to the one I worked on against the other that is still original, usually replacing electrolytic with film. The new one almost always comes to life a bit more, but still there are those times when I think I liked the original sound signature better. It may have been you that mentioned the ESR of the original cap type may have been built into the filter calculations. Again, great stuff!
FWIW, comparisons I've done with a network analyzer, using both amps and loose caps, showed significant phase shift differences. In particular, phase shift versus frequency in the film caps was more even, compared to the electrolytics. Results varied quite a bit depending upon cap manufacturer, model and age. Anyway, a 2-channel scope and signal generator can be used to visualize phase shift; input on channel-A and output on channel-B and test across the audio spectrum. Or, automate the test with a PC.
Thanks for all great videos. Now I am a old timer and about caps I think that older transistor designs where made so you needed electrolytics. But newer design with opamp you dont need to isolate the dc in the same way and filmcaps are for tone only. even for phono amps.
well that's cool. i said that i thought that #1 was direct but could not tell a difference between 2 and 3. listened thru a nad 2140 amp that i rebuilt. a fisher cc3000 preamp that i rebuilt. a pair of mtms that i designed myself and an audiotrak prodigy hd soundcard. btw, i'm 55 and my hearing starts rolling off around 13khz. thanks tony.
interesting comments. JMO but once a person gets used to no electrolytics, its usually a 2 second test. Maybe a bit beyond the original scope but would have been sure interesting to do a film bypass on the power supply filters, then do a A vs. B. with and w/o PS bypass caps.
People probably picked the direct audio because of the polymer caps in the digital recorder. And, I think vintage NEC usually gold plated the leads of their audio transistors. Maybe another sound comparison? 🤔
The difference in capacitor dielectric technologies is an order of magnitude greater than conductivity of transistor leads. Orders of magnitude greater than dissimilar metals. Audio transistor types are not worth the expense of gold bond wire with gold plated frame leads (nobody makes them).
I actually imagined one as best also. I didn't want to post because I thought it was too much a guess. I suppose my 50year ears and Tesla model 3 speakers must be OK after all
You're much more likely to hear those kinds of differences at home. The better your system, the easier you will hear a difference. On a $250 system you'll probably barely notice anything. I'm certainly not a high-end freak, but you can really hear the difference between a $5 interconnect and one worth $50. Do this capacitor test on a good set of speakers, a good amplifier, etc. and you will be amazed
I miss watching your videos, it seems like YT is going against low bandwidth users again, my user experience goes as follows... Click on notification for a Tony video, 2 advertisements play, the video plays for 3sec or so, then the screen goes black and buffers the same way it does if I try to play a video at a resolution that my connection will not support, (anything above 144p) when I check the resolution the yt app auto selects 360p and there is no option select 144p , the strange thing is by closing the app and using a browser to search for your ch and video it plays at 144 and the resolution is sticky and remains at 144. This is getting old, there are only a few ch that I subscribe to and most have the same issue, this is not a Tony issue it is a server side issue, and I apologize for complaining here however there is no option to complain in the app that gets any traction.
Tony, why can't you do a comparison between film vs electrolytic, if the distortion is effected one way or another. You have the equipment to measure the Total Harmonic Distortion. Now that you did the listening test with your audience. Other wise your approach reminds me of Bose.
@@xraytonyb So your telling me opinions are the only things that really matters. I am very surprised at you. I'll give you my opinion, Distortion measurements would be a priority in my professional opinion!
That is a big inverter. How powerful is it? I am fixing elevator inverters, and usually those are built using relatively small igbt modules which also includes bridge rectifier.
What are the actual numbers? Do that math. What % of people licked film, electro, and direct? Because everything I know about human hearing tells me that humans can't hear the difference. So anyone who could tell which was direct was coincidence. Otherwise with enough samples the outcomes would be about 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3. So now CHANGE the order of the audio clips and do the test again and see if those people still have golden ears. Because people can't hear that small level of distortion or phase shift.
I think the age of the listener is a factor. We lose the ability to hear frequencies as we age. Great series!
Good stuff, man. I might have to try this myself with my Marantz 2230 that I had mentioned earlier. I want to compare original caps, new electrolytics, and new films in the preamp. This topic will never stop being talked about and it will always be up to the listener to decide what they like best, but what you've done here has certainly helped me have a more educated opinion on the subject, and hopefully others as well. Has anyone wished YOU peace, joy, happiness, and good health in your life lately? I certainly do. Thanks!
i really liked the no.1 recording, didn't know why back then , now it's clear
50 year old (with mild tinnitus), got No.1 was direct, couldn't hear the difference between film and electrolytic, but can say the main difference I do know between film and electrlytic is about 50 cents.
Nice. Thanks Tony! Looking forward to the NEC video series.
So people guessed through youtube compression, which sounded better, film vs. electrolytic vs. direct? That is really strange to me since youtube audio quality is far from high-end, how people can find those nuances through their compressed audio?
Thanks again for this Tony...very interesting. I thought the tell was the wider soundstage on #1. #2 and #3 were quite similar as many mentioned. I've been a recording engineer for 30 years and we do these shootouts all the time with audio plug-ins (which used to be hardware) and speakers. We usually loop short segments through #1, #2, #3, etc, rather than a continuous track which can change in tonality right on a comparison switch.
I've done recapping of amps and receivers and really should record the output for a pre/post comparison some time. Almost always on first listen, the details in the dynamics are improved. When I do speaker crossovers I'll listen to the one I worked on against the other that is still original, usually replacing electrolytic with film. The new one almost always comes to life a bit more, but still there are those times when I think I liked the original sound signature better. It may have been you that mentioned the ESR of the original cap type may have been built into the filter calculations.
Again, great stuff!
Thanks Tony!😊
FWIW, comparisons I've done with a network analyzer, using both amps and loose caps, showed significant phase shift differences. In particular, phase shift versus frequency in the film caps was more even, compared to the electrolytics. Results varied quite a bit depending upon cap manufacturer, model and age. Anyway, a 2-channel scope and signal generator can be used to visualize phase shift; input on channel-A and output on channel-B and test across the audio spectrum. Or, automate the test with a PC.
i see front panel of NEC A-11 . I very much like to see how you restore NEC A-11 .
Thanks for all great videos. Now I am a old timer and about caps I think that older transistor designs where made so you needed electrolytics. But newer design with opamp you dont need to isolate the dc in the same way and filmcaps are for tone only. even for phono amps.
thank you tony
well that's cool. i said that i thought that #1 was direct but could not tell a difference between 2 and 3. listened thru a nad 2140 amp that i rebuilt. a fisher cc3000 preamp that i rebuilt. a pair of mtms that i designed myself and an audiotrak prodigy hd soundcard. btw, i'm 55 and my hearing starts rolling off around 13khz. thanks tony.
Haha! Nice! Thanks!
interesting comments. JMO but once a person gets used to no electrolytics, its usually a 2 second test. Maybe a bit beyond the original scope but would have been sure interesting to do a film bypass on the power supply filters, then do a A vs. B. with and w/o PS bypass caps.
People probably picked the direct audio because of the polymer caps in the digital recorder. And, I think vintage NEC usually gold plated the leads of their audio transistors. Maybe another sound comparison? 🤔
The difference in capacitor dielectric technologies is an order of magnitude greater than conductivity of transistor leads. Orders of magnitude greater than dissimilar metals. Audio transistor types are not worth the expense of gold bond wire with gold plated frame leads (nobody makes them).
I actually imagined one as best also. I didn't want to post because I thought it was too much a guess. I suppose my 50year ears and Tesla model 3 speakers must be OK after all
You're much more likely to hear those kinds of differences at home.
The better your system, the easier you will hear a difference.
On a $250 system you'll probably barely notice anything.
I'm certainly not a high-end freak, but you can really hear the difference between a $5 interconnect and one worth $50.
Do this capacitor test on a good set of speakers, a good amplifier, etc. and you will be amazed
Got it right ......
I miss watching your videos, it seems like YT is going against low bandwidth users again, my user experience goes as follows... Click on notification for a Tony video, 2 advertisements play, the video plays for 3sec or so, then the screen goes black and buffers the same way it does if I try to play a video at a resolution that my connection will not support, (anything above 144p) when I check the resolution the yt app auto selects 360p and there is no option select 144p , the strange thing is by closing the app and using a browser to search for your ch and video it plays at 144 and the resolution is sticky and remains at 144.
This is getting old, there are only a few ch that I subscribe to and most have the same issue, this is not a Tony issue it is a server side issue, and I apologize for complaining here however there is no option to complain in the app that gets any traction.
Tony, why can't you do a comparison between film vs electrolytic, if the distortion is effected one way or another. You have the equipment to measure the Total Harmonic Distortion. Now that you did the listening test with your audience. Other wise your approach reminds me of Bose.
There are countless tests I could do, but at the end of the day, it won't affect some folks' opinions. ;)
@@xraytonyb So your telling me opinions are the only things that really matters. I am very surprised at you. I'll give you my opinion, Distortion measurements would be a priority in my professional opinion!
upload the schmatic to google drive or diyaudio
That is a big inverter. How powerful is it? I am fixing elevator inverters, and usually those are built using relatively small igbt modules which also includes bridge rectifier.
Its tiny the really big ones a re taller than you and I.
80kW
What are the actual numbers? Do that math. What % of people licked film, electro, and direct? Because everything I know about human hearing tells me that humans can't hear the difference. So anyone who could tell which was direct was coincidence. Otherwise with enough samples the outcomes would be about 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3.
So now CHANGE the order of the audio clips and do the test again and see if those people still have golden ears. Because people can't hear that small level of distortion or phase shift.