@@karlaverbeck9413 and especially when the imported wares were taking away local's livelihood. 'Shop local' was always a cry of desperation. Because people are people, we all like imported goods; exotic sells.
I know that there is a documantairy about fake ulfberth swords floating around on UA-cam somewhere which was really interresting. Most "fakes" tended to have spelling errors in the eay ulfberth was written and where the crosses where placed. D*mn now I want to see that docu again but wanted to see the docu "the serpent in the blade", which I could finale easier because I know the name. When I find the docu I'm talking about I'll post the link here.
The Norse process of filtering iron sand out of the bog honestly astounds me just as much as more complex smithing processes. Like yes the iron wasn’t the best quality but it was previously sand!
Can I say how much I love the imagery you used to convey just how primitive the Viking metalworking was, at the time people in India are producing this amazingly strong and beautiful steel.
Yay! A topic I can help with some specialized information in the form of a mile long comment! So, to start off: everything Jimmy presented in this is roughly accurate. Unfortunately it misses out on a bit of the nuance that's involved in modern blade industry nomenclature. The confusion regarding what is damascus steel is actually goes back to European gun barrel makers. High end gun barrels (mostly shotguns) were made by pattern welding steels of different carbon contents together and manipulating them to create visual interest. These have been called "Damascus" in the firearms industry for much longer than what we have seen in the cutlery industry. The current issue is a result of a smith named Bill Moran. Moran was one of the founding members of the American Bladesmithing Society, one of the world's preeminent organization for qualifying bladesmiths. In the late 1970s Moran was seeking to replicate the APPEARANCE of damascus steel, and clearly knew about the connection between pattern welding steel and the "damascus" term used to refer to gun barrels. Moran's big contribution to the confusion was that when he developed a method of pattern welding using a high nickel steel to allow for much more dramatic pattern contrast, he called it "the NEW damascus". The technique was adopted into the ABS curriculum as a demonstration of forging skill and, unsurprisingly, the "new" part was quickly dropped. As the ABS has a HUGE influence on trends and publicity in the bladesmithing world, their use of the term "damascus" is essentially now a piece of trade jargon. To try and avoid it, a lot of smiths avoid using the term at all; instead we'll use "pattern welded" for it, and "wootz" for modern reproductions of the original crucible steel.
Thanks. I also came here to say that almost no one in the knife industry is using "Damascus" deceptively. It's a result of historic ambiguity in the usage. O
the ABS is almost meaningless outside the States, you can blame all that on Forged in Fire etc for spreading the misinformation across the world, just like Hollywood and the katana myths
@habitus.craeft "wootz", as far as we can tell, is first mentioned in 1794 by a British merchant as a translation of Tamil utsa. See DOI: 10.1007/s11837-014-1154-1
My partner just got me an amazing pattern welded cleaver. He's gotten rather cautious when I'm butchering chickens, tho. Apparently yelling "Hassan chop!" when I'm dismembering carcasses is alarming.
In one of the near SCA baronys, we have a blacksmith, who specializes in pattern weld blades. His work is beautiful. Pattern welding is amazing. He is a "Forged in Fire" winner, season 4 episode 2, where he makes a pattern welded weapon for the final.
Just to be clear about something Jimmy said: a patterns welded blade is not inherently better or worse than any other modern mono-steel... But it is VERY labour intensive. If someone is offering a pattern welded sword for sale, expect it to be several times the price of a comparable plain steel sword. With pattern welded "damascus" you absolutely will get what you pay for.
I once saw what must have been pattern-welded knives at a rock and mineral show. In my ignorance (thank you Jimmy, for enlightening me!) I asked if it was Damascus steel. The seller, who was the knife smith, was noncommittal, and now I know why. They were beautiful, however, and if I ever see him again I want to buy one for ... reasons?
A long-ago book that I read, said of the various "Damascus'" steels, "all three offer a chance to make a great blade, along with a splendid chance to fail."
When I have seen fancy patterned knives on food shows it seems the pattern goes away with sharpening. I'm hopeful that this is not the case with Damascus or pattern welded?
@@jessicazaytsoff1494 regular sharpening shouldn't do anything to the pattern. If you end up abrading the flats of the knife it will, but most smiths etch deep enough that it really shouldn't be a problem.
I would advocate for a modern high quality steel to be better than a pattern welded steel. Not as pretty, and not as satisfying to use, but for sure better.
I think it also matters because it goes to show that progress is not a linear accumulation of knowledge: we lose many precious techniques along the way, and they are far harder to re-find than we tend to imagine.
You know how in early 2000s it was discovered that true Damascus steel has carbon nano-tubes in it? Well a few weeks ago I was checking up on the reserch into how this could have been achieved. Mind you, I did not see onee reference to anyone involved being a master smith. Just a load of physics. Apparently they are now well on their way to declaring that it was made either with ore or additives that no longer exist. You know, because they cannot recreate the technique, so it had to rely on things they can't get anymore, can't be they just can't figure out the very specific sequence of actions the ancient masters.
Damascus steel when analysed shows about 0.3% manganese, molybdenum or vanadium and 1.5% carbon. Basically it is a chrome molybdenum carbon steel alloy.
The research team you'd be interested in was comprised of 3 people: World renowned metallurgist John Verhoeven, Vice President of Nucor Steel Bill Dauksch, and Master Bladesmith Al Pendray. The scholarly paper produced is entitled "The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades", which is as simple to find as a copy/paste into Google. There is a video you will want to watch entitled "The Secrets of Wootz Damascus Steel" on the channel Loades of History, which is owned by Mike Loades, the BBC ancient warfare expert. The video is outstanding, and not to be missed by anyone seriously interested in "real" damascus. The team not only figured out the actual ratios of materials in the original wootz crucible damascus steel...they were eventually able to reproduce it. Unfortunately, the man with the skill to do so, Al Pendray, passed away in 2017.
@@TheWelshVikingI'm up for that. I haven't taken a good look at the Minoans for years. Thanks to Mr Truran my history teacher who first sparked my interest.
This is interesting, not just because I'm a history nerd too, but because I have a firend who studied for fifteen years to learn ancient - modern mosaic techniques. He's a master mosaic artist. His pieces sell in the thousands and tens of thousands because each piece of glass or tile was handmade first before being cut. I also know someone who works in fashion, and we think those expensive gowns are just flashy clothes, but there's technique involved down to the weaving of the cloth that's been passed on by cultures for generations that go into each of those fancy dresses. Sometimes these art forms keep our history alive! So those techniques aren't lost to time.
I remember my disappointment when I saw that smithing UA-cam channel do a pattern weld by making a steel box and just willy nilly tossing different grades of steel into it. The results was pretty, but as an apprentice blacksmith I feel cheated and a bit of professional... disappointment with them. Like, one the blade is now extremely brittle and two they kept calling it Damascus steel.
Thank you. I had the joy and the misfortune of teaching English Literature and Art History. It was a great job as it allowed endless opportunities for research and the delight of sharing the results with students who often actually cared. YOU often are the person who shows me the flaws in my scholarship - through my own errors and deficiencies or those of the sources I believed. One would think that this would be soul-crushing, but I find it wonderful. Many of the things I was taught in classrooms were presented by believers who believed (as I sometimes did) in faulty information. As long as I can still enjoy the digging - I live. Thank you. (P.S. Would you consider giving some information on sourcing an actually good sword. I have been led to believe that a U S Naval dress sword is a really fine weapon - as well as quite pretty. How do I know if this is true?)
This video allowed me to finally figure out why I love this and so many other history channels on UA-cam. These videos are like the days where my profs in uni got to lecture on one of the topics they really loved, as opposed to had to cover for the curriculum. And I don't even have to write an essay twice a semester 😊.
So this is definitely the inspiration for Valyrian steel in the GRR Martin books, yeah? I love spotting all of the actual history-inspired things in those books :)
Notes: Hard and tough are two different qualities when talking about steel. Tough means resistant to breaking and hard means, well hard. Hard steels hold an edge better, but tend to be more brittle.* There are different techniques to try to get a blade with both qualities. Damascus was one, as are heat treating, lamination, and pattern-welding. A note on pattern welding, aka modern Damascus. There are varying qualities as well as fakes. The number of layers means higher price and supposedly a better end product. The types of steel used makes a difference in quality as well. *This is a simplification, but it gives the general idea.
Also worth mentioning that while pattern-weld is *not* Damascus, it *is* historically accurate to the Viking age/migration era, as there are plenty of examples of spears and swords from that time which had pattern-welded blades, even some exhibiting complex, expressive patterns that suggest that this was an art form in its own right
Yes, pattern welding was around long before they had Damascus patterned blades. They didn’t start calling pattern welded blades Damascus blades until they were tying to capitalize on the reputation of Damascus pattern blades.
a Seax wouldn't have been made of crucible steel, far to expensive and rare back then, they were usually made of wrought iron with a carbon steel cutting edge or pattern welded
@@bigoldgrizzly I know but that is due to slag in the material and why it was often folded so often, it is wrought is very different to pattern welding and true Damascus, the pattern is like the grain in a piece of timber
@@andyc750 Quite so, One of the reasons I love working with wrought iron is the fact that it has this inherent grain rather than a bland homogeneous modern steel. It would certainly been the most easily available and most used material, with inserts of expensive higher carbon steel to give a better quality blade edge. Etching gives a subtle effect far less pronounced than that of pattern welded steel.
Interesting topic. It's crazy to think of the number of skills that were extremely important at one time that have simply been forgotten because they were no longer popular or marketable. Some skills like Dhaka muslin were even deliberately forced out by competing groups so only their way would be used. It pays to be skeptical of anything you read especially when someone is trying to sell you something. I'm off to watch the other videos. Thanks.
Came here because I keep seeing the articles about the bronze age sword uncovered in modern day Germany and I just needed to come to your channel to hear you chat about history. Found this new upload and SERENDIPITY RULES THE DAY!
This whole damascus vs pattern welded thing is a bit tricky in terms of nomenclature .. Because i get the feeling that as the 18th and 19thcentury wore on, the term damascus became maybe a catchall term for any patterned steel We have, for example, 'damascus gun barrels' as a term where rifle, shotgun and musket barrels were made of 2 or 3 bands or iron wrapped in a helix around a mandrel then welded This had a variety of names but was sometimes known as twist damascus barrels in the 19th century and even earlier One article alleges( key word) that some 17th century gunsmiths were even trying to directly imitate the crucible steel blades of various ottoman and other eastern troops
Check out also LK Chen's attempts at making Chinese "Fried Steel", which is what the Han were doing 2000 years ago. Similar idea, bordering on blast furnace from my understanding, but definitely no longer bloomery.
I bought myself a beautiful Szechuan pattern-welded knife as a treat, as chefs are known to do, and apparently the mordern practice and method of pattern-welding makes it very pretty but very very brittle. Removalists decided it was perfectly fine to use my beautiful knife to undo the screws on my bed frame prior to packing it into the truck and snapped the end clean off. I'm still very sad about it. I cant even look at it anymore.
Every time you say Damascus steel with such conviction, it makes me so happy. I just love your passion in sharing history. I only discovered your channel fairly recently and I am binging. I absolutely love your videos. It also helps to have a sexy history teacher to make everything more exciting. 😉
interestingly, my first introduction to the idea of pattern welded steel came in the 90's when i was exploring polymer clay techniques. there is a technique used to create many layers of different clay colors (sometimes including translucent) and running them through a pasta machine to press them thinner. manipulating the resulting stack with impressed patterns resulted in a wood grain or watermark design. the technique was called Mokume-Gane and traced back to Japanese/Asian metalworking practices of the same name. about 10 years later, i had my second exposure to pattern welded steel in the form of a video about the search for the lost techniques of Damascus steel. there they gave a similar (though less researched) assertion that pattern welded steel was not the traditional Damascus steel.... long before the internet was covered in options to buy. in defense of the sellers labeling their work as Damascus steel nowadays, in all likelihood, the don't have much choice. SEO driven traffic controls a lot of commercial success online nowadays and it has changed the way terms are used based on what attracts views. i notice this a lot with wool. if you are looking to buy wool for spinning, almost all prepared wool will be called roving, for example, even though the majority of what is available is combed top. people who are new to the craft have a hard time learning the difference because of the ubiquitousness of the term, and so the term is used more often in what becomes a feedback loop. those who know better can't avoid it without losing traffic.
I think what people REALLY need to realize is that old Damascus steel is now called wootz, and Damascus steel is now the trade term for pattern welding. Language marches on. In America, you don't spot flutterbyes and coneys in the field. You get coneys at Sonic before you watch the butterflies.
Interesting! I’ve been hearing that term for about 60 years now and while I got the message that it was special,I had no idea how special…and beautiful it was/ is. Thank you as ever Jimmy. Hope the PhD studies are going well. Xx
Someone needs to show Alec Steel this video. He make a lot of patterned wielded items and calls it Damascus steel. I've known the the truth about Damascus steel before I stumbled onto his channel, so I tuned out of those episodes after the first one I saw him use that. I didn't know the name of the technique at the time (patterned folding). Now, do I think Alec Steel is being deceitful or dishonest? Not really. I think he learned this really cool technique, and his sources sources (probably just as unknowingly) passed on bad information to him. I think if he knew the actual history, he would call his stuff differently.
If you showed this to Alec,I imagine he'd say the same thing the rest of us modern bladesmiths would say, and that's that Damascus is now commonly used by modern handlers to describe pattern welded steel. Do we know it's not crucible steel that was made a thousand years ago using a vein of iron someone found that had some crazy "alloy" in the original form that made an amazing blade for a thousand years ago? Yes bro, we know that. We also know that because our technology is light years ahead of what is was a thousand years ago that a basic high carbon steel from today that is well heat treated is miles above "true Damascus" of old.
So off topic, I remember seeing a Bollywood movie Baahubali and there was this scene where they were testing swords. And none of them were good enough for the protagonist 😂😂😂. It's interesting that real history supports that ridiculous amazing epic film.
So my old shotgun (father's, father's and so on scenario) has what are called damascus barrels, but they are really pattern welded steel? Doesn't sound anywhere near as romantic.
The infuriating thing about the issue is that people who truly SHOULD know better will happily continue the sham. The term damascus has been genericized (a legal term)...losing it's original meaning entirely. And all because they want a cool marketing name to sell pattern welded blades. People worth listening to now refer to the genuine article as "wootz crucible damascus steel".
So, considering the material is so much more superior than the local steel used at the time in Europe during the Viking period, I wonder if swords made from Damascus steel contribute to legendary swords that are described in folklore. Also, Damascus steel was used to make blades like swords and knives. However, is there any record or evidence of Damascus steel being used to make other weapons, such as axes, spears, or arrowheads?
I was so confused when I visited Damasus as a kid and saw a bunch of Damascus steel shops, when I knew it was a lost technique! But its a great selling point, to be fair
So, was the steel made as a raw material & then smithed into a sword afterwards, or did it have to be made into its final (or near final) form during the initial process?
Great video! Thank you for explaining why modern Damascus steel isn't the legendary damascus steel. This was interesting just as someone mildly interested in blacksmithing. But, what is a hoverfly? is that like a dragonfly? A Canadian wants to know.
Damask is named for the city, but it's actually a type of very intricate weaving that results in a pattern on the front and back of the fabric. Watered silk, aka moire, is a finishing technique that involves getting silk wet and pressing it between rollers.
i watched a documentary on a guy that was recreating an Ulfbert sword and there was a point where he said "i don't need a sword but i have to make them, not because i can't make anything else, but because i CANT make anything else", thats all i just love that quote and it never leaves me and i thought i'd share it
Wootz is still around and there's a few people that will make it, its essentially a high carbon content of about 1.2 to 1.8% with some vanadium in there for hardness, some trace chromium and the rest is a crucible process. What got lost over the years was the ores to make it, most of the mines in India and Syria were depleted some time ago a bit after the 18th century. Its quite a difficult material to use in the sense that its a bespoke melt when you get the end product that isn't going to react exactly the same as the material in a similar melt that's done roughly the same time and that comes back to how its processed and ultimately heat treated. You can't really give it very high temperatures during the refining process or it burns out all the carbon and generally the hardening and tempering process is about as variable. There is even some apocrypha that in some steels where not even hardened and hammer-forged out almost completely cold in some sort of age-hardening process that I'm kind of so-so on taking for what its worth but I'm hardly an expert and this video just popped up in my list on youtube (but I am a full time cutler) Needless to say, wootz is a completely rubbish material for industrialised processes and really the other reason that people threw it in the too hard bucket, no ones rolling up to your merchant to order 30,000 munition grade bayonets, sabres and other pokey objects from your foreign sources- they went to England, Germany, Spain, France and Italy when they wanted a lot of metal objects to fit out the vast armies of the time. Leaving the bespoke manufacturers of such things to just local demand from whoever. Its why you see 'trade blades' from about the 16th century onward show up in everywhere from central Africa with a Solingen proof or in the Americas from the Brits, French and Spanish. So even while they 'could' make their bespoke crucible steels, even the people who could, wanted more and the European processes was BETTER in the sense you have more blokes in the field with a sharp object that was functional than the other guy and the real killing began. Add to that, swords really only had a use up until blackpowder was being phased out as your 'better than nothing' alternative in a gun fight and the gun itself was probably the greatest equaliser in terms of warfare over time that further diminished the importance of edged weaponry. In terms of wootz today versus modern metals, there's no comparison really. Our modern metallurgy has left it in the dust long ago to the point something like our basic UK or US produced 1084 steels would outperform anything made in the per-industrial era by a very large margin. Plus when you buy it by the bulk in an order, every tonne you have will heat treat exactly the same as the last sheet you cut up and will be perfectly serviceable. That's just basic 1084, the newbie starter steel you give the up and coming knife makers to use, practice on and can make a blade better than some master in the 17th century in terms of shock resistance, hardness and edge holding and its 'barely' a high carbon steel at 0.8% carbon content. Then look at the high alloy, modern tool steels- these are many generations better than anything else, they're super fine grained, insanely tough, have edge holding for days and essentially makes the modern world what it is by those properties alone for machining tools. Somewhere if you want something that will put up with a 500kw, 12000nm of torque shredding machine that eats car bodies and engine blocks for breakfast it'll have teeth and blades made out of something like S7 or A8Mod and that's commonly available to anyone with the cash who wants to make a knife out of it. (I do sometimes and its absolutely bonkers!) So wootz had its time, but its more or less an artisan hobby and has been for about the last 3-400 years as industrialisation wiped it out, its pretty cool, you can still make it. Actually making anything out of it takes a lot of work though so its hardly economically viable to do those melts for people without some kind of extra funding to do it.
My ancient brain has the memory of being told (or it was a movie) that ... Samurai sword were made with steel folded 100x over. Which I thought was like Damascus steel. Thats why you shouldn't get your history from movies. Or tv. Or books. Not all books. It get complicated.
Thank you Jimmy, I was ignorant to what was real Damascus steel! Although why is it that we can not rediscover these lost methods,,, I once knew an old school genuine metalogist (hope the spelling holds up) Any I once knew this guy, a Yorkshire man (who incidentally destroyed my wooden sword, with his, whilst doing the swordy fighty bit in a mummers play) Back to my point,,,, he would often tell me of old steels that out performed modern steels, but again how they made these metals no one knows the secret craft was lost and never passed on Such a secretive bunch, that guarded their ways so closely, it would appear that modern metalogist give up too easily "o it's a lost art" Surely it would be easier for the mods to rediscover, then the labour's the original inventors! 🤪
There is no secret about the wootz steel from the Damascus age. I read about complete reconstruction of wootz steel in original crucibles over 40 years ago using the same technique used in India. No secret to metallurgists at all,
I have a question for nitpicking Jimmy (Any of the Jimmys will do 😉). How does the japanese forging and metallurgy compare to damascus steel? I would love to hear your toughts on this. Thx! Greetings from Hordafylkir.
@@TheWelshViking Thank you! The reason for me asking this, is that to me at least, the steel used on the japanese swords looks a lot like damascus steel/folded steel. Nowadays it is all the rage, even Ikea sells knives in "damascus steel". Again, thank you. 👋
@@TheWelshViking that's actually a really nuanced question with an equally nuanced answer. The ORE available in Japan is generally low quality, that is to say low yield, and it is very difficult to smelt due to it being extremely fine particles. That's why it's provided in a specific variety of bloomery furnace. That said, once the smelting process is complete, the technique yields a relatively high carbon steel bloom that retains enough carbon after repeated forge welding to make excellent blades. Ilya from That works channel did a piece all about steel comparisons that's a great watch, and it comprehensible to non experts. I shall go find it and attach it in another comment
What an awesome video, historical metallurgy is so cool. Who knew "true" damascus had such a drastically different process to pattern-weld, I always thought they were more similar. It should also be noted that pattern-welded steel is also historical to the Viking period and before (I believe the Sutton Hoo sword was pattern welded), and like damascus, can also be stronger than the sum of the steels used (if good steels are used, you can also just forge weld pure iron and weld steel together and as long as they have different carbon contents/ trace metals in them, they will make a pretty pattern. The result will be pretty, but weak). It is not as strong as damascus was purported to be, but pattern welded blades were still considered high-status weapons due to the extra time and skill involved, and they were probably more common in Scandinavia than true damascus because the materials could be sourced much closer to home. All this to reinforce Jimmy's point of if you want a pattern welded blade because you can't find true damascus, go for it, just make sure the steel is actually two different steels as opposed to a cheap monosteel that's been laser-engraved or, heaven forbid, painted.
Most black Smith's probably don't know what actually Damascus is, for all intensive purposes pattern welding steel is Damascus steel, actually Damascus is just a different thing
A'reyt Jimmy. Welcome to Yorkshire. This was like a crystallography lecture at university crossed with my readings on Vikings to play Ancients wargames for the university team. I am here thanks to Brandon. I had originally been a Napoleonic wargamer, but shifted to get a game. I remember at university thinking it was likely such skills that got my ancestors their name, though the skill with horses was the one that was passed on right to my dad's generation. I gave up on Vikings as a competition army as the lack of horses made it impossible to score points, as I have mentioned to fellow Viking fans in comments on History With Hilbert and Scotland History Tours before, but being from Yorkshire they would always be first choice.
Where did you find "Vikings" in Yorkshire instead of Danes and Norvegians? Seriously, the overuse of the V-word HAS to stop. It's in its native language a very narrow term for any Norse voyager going on a tour. Rampaging, trading, fishing or even sightseeing. Throughout most of the Danelag's history the norse people in Britain would not have seen themselves as "Vikings" as thery SETTLED THERE and wanted to stay. Compare to "normans" in the northeast of France., Not "french vikings", but settled Northmen... Calling anything remotely scandinavian from that period "viking" is the REAL MYTH that should have been fought, killed and buried in this series!
@@Ugly_German_Truths I used the name in the Channel name. It was also the word in the wargames army list. A commenter on those other channels refers to me as "King of Danelaw" because I usually refer to that. Unfortunately the English word in common usage is Viking, so I think it is a case of Hardrada luck pal.
alright butty, come here over there and let me tell you a question? what boots them shoes? im looking for 12th - 14th centuary, low middle class, poatcher, hunter. diolch mark
The "Damascus" in Damascus Steel sounds very like how the (presumably Crusading) Franks are invoked in the name of Frankincense (which certainly is not Frankish in actual origin).
So to clarify not all pattern welded folded steel is Damascus steel. But is Damascus steel also a type of folded steel but using a very specific forging technique? Like is Damascus folded steel or a mono steel?
Catching up after being away for awhile. This really quite interesting! It’s really funny how people tend to latch onto “Named” things like Damascus steel. Thank you for sharing. (Quietly dying because it’s over 90 degrees F and our AC isn’t working 😅)
for most people buying blades for reenactment wouldn't need an actual damascus steel blade- unless you plant on using it you wouldn't be able to tell the difference? They shouldn't be selling something under false pretences thought :(
Some people will buy sharps for demonstrations, and I guess if you found some good Wootz steel to show its quality in cutting that would be fun. But yeah, very true!
I saw a woman on UA-cam chopping wood with a sword. Apparently it was specifically made for that purpose. I'm not sure what it's made of, but it was damn impressive. 😃
@@TheWelshViking there are some smiths out there making wootz replicas. I think the thing in mind though is, as magical as crucible steel is, it doesn't hold a candle to modern steel. A modern replica will out cut it every time.
Damascus steel comes originally from the area of Damas and then suddenly ppl are calling it damascus steel, but many sites have been found all over the area of Damas. But what ppl see all over the internet is cheap made, even crudely made with alot of imperfections in it. Pattern welded steel is what the vikings used etc. I am glad you mentioned Damas and the misconception that ppl think it is damascus steel. Tack från Sverige.
I saw an engrossing documentary about a man who researched and experimented for most of his working life to understand and create genuine Wootz Crucible steel. The difference is obvious and essential. I , like you , am disappointed in the way the term Damascus has been hijacked by welded steel makers.
I'm sure you're referring to the 3 man team of John Verhoeven (metallurgist), Bill Dauksch (Nucor steel executive), and Al Pendray (master bladesmith). I'd wager the documentary you watched was "The Secrets of Wootz Damascus Steel" on Loades of History (YT channel).
I had the honor of meeting Al Pendray a number of years back at a knife show and hearing first hand about how wootz is made and the difference between it and pattern welded steel. He was an engaging personality and absolutely passionate about the steel! I wish I could have afforded to buy one of his blades...
I must say (as a guy who has done some blacksmithing and made my steel from sand and carbon) that much of this is linguistics. "Damascus" in modern usage IS pattern welded steel. It isn't a scam, its just how the word is used. Well educated smiths will make a distinction. But in a world where people call everything runes and can't tell elder futhark from younger do you really think they can speak to the structure in iron alloys? Language changes. You know. As an engineer i perked up when you mentioned wootz and crucible ateel because in discussions of "Damascus" these terms come up often as do terms like Austenite and Martensite and occasionally tamahagane. It is complicated and i do appreciate the video.
The claim to “secret knowledge” in the various sectors it shows up in (the more woo-woo side of the diet/wellness industry leaps to mind) just strikes me as reinventing Gnosticism for our profit-above-all economic situation.
Selling patternwelded as damascus with reasonable price tag is little grey area. Selling PW blade with crucible steel (closest to real damascus) price tag is robbing people. Some sell even etched blades as damascus with hudge price tag what is also robbing. I think it is legally fraud.
I think it's cool to think about having experiences in common with historical people about mundane things like trying to buy something and finding out it wasn't what you thought it was. It's cool how much historical metalworking is relative to what materials and tools are available concurrently. I don't think it's surprising that most modern smiths aren't replicating ancient techniques! The technique seems unlikely to be suited for the materials and equipment that modern smiths can find
The thing is even if its not damascus but good quality patern welded blade using high quality modern sleels which are most probably superior to the old true damascus you will have a truly good blade,but remember the patern is just simply for looks and doesn't add to the proformance of sword or knife 😊
I actually have several modern pattern welded blades, including a sword, an axe, a Seax, a "Talon" blade, a small hatchet-like blade, and several knives, including a folding knife. They are very sharp and I love the patterns in the steel, which makes them look quite magical - the small hatchet is a pattern of spots and rings resembling "eyes", the pattern in the Seax looks like a series of large fingerprints along the blade, the sword almost resembles the patterns of a topographical map of a series of hills or large mounds, the rest are various styles of wavy water-like patterns. I love them all (16 total currently, the lowest cost was $45USD for the folding knife, the highest was $225USD for the sword) and I have no illusions of them being anything but modern pattern welded blades (and good quality ones too). I'm currently in the process of creating a series of leather sheaths and scabbards for them all, some of them built into a cross-body shoulder bag made from a silver fox pelt (loosely based on a badger pelt black powder "possibles bag" and a similar muskrat pelt shoulder bag my mother made in the mid 1970's), some built into a kind of backpack made from a coyote pelt, some made to attach to a belt or baldric (the folding knife is going into a cleavage sheath 😆). Fun times.
As a blacksmith I am aware the modern use of Damascus is referring to different alloys of steel welded together (mostly involving some manipulation like twisting to get more complex patterns), nonetheless this is an actual historical thing to do there are hundreds of the pattern welded blades/spears/axes/guns and what not throughout history from Roman swords to Ottoman guns and the patterns can go insanely complex and they really knew what pattern they wanted and how to get them. As mentioned iron quality wasn't the best and folding and welding is a way to get impurity's out and one theory is that the patterns occurred to demonstrate the blade smiths skills because you can spot flaws and the more complex the better the smith so you knew it was high quality and wouldn't snap the first blow you hit. Different alloy occur naturally depending where the ore originated from so iron from Germany might be harder, hold edge better but is slightly more brittle then iron from England but combined they make a better sword then alone you can actually pattern weld the same steel as the carbon is drawn towards the weld, different alloys just make it pop more (like nickel gives a more silver line) every time you heat a piece you lose some quality so pattern welded steel can never be better then modern steel all this just to say modern Damascus isn't historically inaccurate it just didn't go by that name, pattern welding is insanely hard especially if you want to recreate the same pattern as every thing you do differently impacts the final results and you can say about ancient Damascus what you want but we can't be certain as we still haven't figured it out. anyway love the video keep up the good work btw for those whose patterned blades are fading: soaking it in used coffee grind should bring it back at it is slightly acidic but doesn't eat the blade like more aggressive acids... unless you have been scammed and the pattern is just etched in :o
Weird thing is pattern welded swords (at least of certain types) are more historically accurate than wootz I'd go further, if someone is selling something called Damascus steel it's pattern weld. The few smiths trying recreate accurate Damascus use the name Wootz
Here in the states doing 18th century reenactment and we have long rifles and knifes being called Damascus steel as well, great channel I’m glad I ran across you
I agree, but language change over time, and calling it Damascus steel is not incorrect, but its not talking about the same thing. So to fix this, we can call it modern and old Damascus
So I love your video, so amazing~ and I looked into this on my own years ago because it cropped up in a piece of fiction I was reading. So it is really awesome to see you dive into this with your level of education!
Thank you for the video! I also think it's worth being a bit careful w the differences because sometimes we can be kind of misled into the rather disappointing idea that people historically were overawed by things that *don't stand up* anymore. Not to lessen the awesomeness of pattern welding, because frankly that looks insanely cool even knowing that it isn't a supersteel of some sort, but they are nonetheless different things. Thank you for the video!
Just a note on scandinavian iron at 10:30 - Scandinavian bog ore and the iron/steel you get out of it is actually of very good quality (swedish steel was incredibly sought after up until like 1980 :)). Sure, the iron age bloomeries are incredibly resource consuming and only yields a few kg's of iron compared to the medieval blastfurnaces, but the quality was 🤌
@TheWelshViking True. Norwegian ore had a lot of phosphorus, making the tap bloom more common there to avoid the iron becoing too brittle. Denmark on the other hand, with their bedrock? Can't even begin to speculate. Cool thing is also that there is evidence that "swedes" around Uppland began experimenting in rock ore during the vendel period and that some of the fellas in the Vendel graves might have been Bergsmän (magnates owning part in a mine). So i think quality was likely never a general issue when it came to weapons. Quantity however was. Production of weapons in scandinavia would be nothing compared to the quantity produced by the franks, holy roman empire or brits:)
The pattern plate welding does give more surfaces for impurities to remain in the metal. This as a baseline is probably a good area to begin trying to add manganese or other metal ore, in attempts to recreate it
"Alexander the Big"??? Come on, he deserves better than that. Are you reading the "Unconquerable Sun"/"Furious Heaven" series of gender-swapped Alexander the Great (in space) books??? Because you (and everyone) totally should. It's really good.
Europeans absolutely made crucible steel. Ulfberts are a famous example. Well, a part of them anyways... Probably the cutting edges only, but still, crucible steel. Same deal as 'Damascus' crucible steel, albeit a bit different in the alloying elements.
You also dont need a blast furnace to make it, some chaps tried it using mostly period methods. It does require some form a kiln though, enclosed, like a those modern little metal foundries.
Just to add another note. Those chaps I mentioned that worked on the project determined that the only reason why the pattern is as it is is Vanadium present in that specific ore. Nothing else... Well, nothing else in the alloy, but there is a lot of caveat in how you have to work the puck to achieve it. A bit too hot or too cold, for a bit longer and the pattern is ruined. So it is highly specific, but the real magic is in the ore :)
I’m not aware of any of the original viking age ulfberhts having definitively European produced crucible steel elements, only some hardened cutting edges, so if you’ve got a link to the paper that describes the metallurgy I’d be very eager to read it! I’m also not aware of any viking age European true crucible steel production, so again if you have a link to that I’d be very pleased to read it!
@@TheWelshViking you and me both 😅 It was a very long time ago I read anything regarding that topic. I barely managed to remember that documentary by Mike, linked further up somewhere. Basically, its not anything special with modern steels, so it kind of lost its charm for me. Our most plain steels are now super steels to the super steels of the middle ages. And we literally have a subgroup of modern steels called 'super steels' so yeah... 😅🤣 If I do manage to dig something up though, Im definite to link it here :)
Out of curiosity, do you have any links to read upon, where it is specifically stated that the steel of an ulfbert was specifically that damasus crucible steel were talking about? Since I could have sworn that it was another steel entirely 😆
I find it wonderfully weird that making knockoffs has an ancient history.
There were lots of Roman Pottery knockoffs. Some pots were even 'signed' , except the potter couldn't write Latin !
People are people. Especially where there's a buck to be made!
@@karlaverbeck9413 and especially when the imported wares were taking away local's livelihood. 'Shop local' was always a cry of desperation. Because people are people, we all like imported goods; exotic sells.
I know that there is a documantairy about fake ulfberth swords floating around on UA-cam somewhere which was really interresting. Most "fakes" tended to have spelling errors in the eay ulfberth was written and where the crosses where placed.
D*mn now I want to see that docu again but wanted to see the docu "the serpent in the blade", which I could finale easier because I know the name. When I find the docu I'm talking about I'll post the link here.
Many of the Ulfberhts are forgeries and are much lower quality steel.
The Norse process of filtering iron sand out of the bog honestly astounds me just as much as more complex smithing processes. Like yes the iron wasn’t the best quality but it was previously sand!
The Japanese were forced to use similar(?) methods of sand-smelting to get iron, creating an alloy called "tamahagane" in the process.
Sand? In some bogs in Norway we got iron hydroxide. It was this red-brownish stuff they made the iron from.
Bacteria, actually! iron bacteria.
@@CheerfuEntropy Yup. They grow iron for you under the grass and even regenerate it over time.
@@CheerfuEntropy Exacty! Iron made this way was very shiny- so knights in shining armor could have been gilded but more likely were bog iron armor.
Can I say how much I love the imagery you used to convey just how primitive the Viking metalworking was, at the time people in India are producing this amazingly strong and beautiful steel.
Yay! A topic I can help with some specialized information in the form of a mile long comment!
So, to start off: everything Jimmy presented in this is roughly accurate. Unfortunately it misses out on a bit of the nuance that's involved in modern blade industry nomenclature. The confusion regarding what is damascus steel is actually goes back to European gun barrel makers. High end gun barrels (mostly shotguns) were made by pattern welding steels of different carbon contents together and manipulating them to create visual interest. These have been called "Damascus" in the firearms industry for much longer than what we have seen in the cutlery industry.
The current issue is a result of a smith named Bill Moran. Moran was one of the founding members of the American Bladesmithing Society, one of the world's preeminent organization for qualifying bladesmiths. In the late 1970s Moran was seeking to replicate the APPEARANCE of damascus steel, and clearly knew about the connection between pattern welding steel and the "damascus" term used to refer to gun barrels. Moran's big contribution to the confusion was that when he developed a method of pattern welding using a high nickel steel to allow for much more dramatic pattern contrast, he called it "the NEW damascus". The technique was adopted into the ABS curriculum as a demonstration of forging skill and, unsurprisingly, the "new" part was quickly dropped.
As the ABS has a HUGE influence on trends and publicity in the bladesmithing world, their use of the term "damascus" is essentially now a piece of trade jargon. To try and avoid it, a lot of smiths avoid using the term at all; instead we'll use "pattern welded" for it, and "wootz" for modern reproductions of the original crucible steel.
Thank you.
Thanks. I also came here to say that almost no one in the knife industry is using "Damascus" deceptively. It's a result of historic ambiguity in the usage. O
the ABS is almost meaningless outside the States, you can blame all that on Forged in Fire etc for spreading the misinformation across the world, just like Hollywood and the katana myths
Where does this term "wootz" come from? It doesn't sound very Dravidian, to my ears (though I only speak Malayalam, not Tamizh). Is it European?
@habitus.craeft "wootz", as far as we can tell, is first mentioned in 1794 by a British merchant as a translation of Tamil utsa. See DOI: 10.1007/s11837-014-1154-1
My partner just got me an amazing pattern welded cleaver. He's gotten rather cautious when I'm butchering chickens, tho. Apparently yelling "Hassan chop!" when I'm dismembering carcasses is alarming.
Chop the rabbit, he brought us here 😂
In one of the near SCA baronys, we have a blacksmith, who specializes in pattern weld blades. His work is beautiful. Pattern welding is amazing. He is a "Forged in Fire" winner, season 4 episode 2, where he makes a pattern welded weapon for the final.
Just to be clear about something Jimmy said: a patterns welded blade is not inherently better or worse than any other modern mono-steel... But it is VERY labour intensive. If someone is offering a pattern welded sword for sale, expect it to be several times the price of a comparable plain steel sword. With pattern welded "damascus" you absolutely will get what you pay for.
I once saw what must have been pattern-welded knives at a rock and mineral show. In my ignorance (thank you Jimmy, for enlightening me!) I asked if it was Damascus steel. The seller, who was the knife smith, was noncommittal, and now I know why. They were beautiful, however, and if I ever see him again I want to buy one for ... reasons?
A long-ago book that I read, said of the various "Damascus'" steels, "all three offer a chance to make a great blade, along with a splendid chance to fail."
When I have seen fancy patterned knives on food shows it seems the pattern goes away with sharpening.
I'm hopeful that this is not the case with Damascus or pattern welded?
@@jessicazaytsoff1494 regular sharpening shouldn't do anything to the pattern. If you end up abrading the flats of the knife it will, but most smiths etch deep enough that it really shouldn't be a problem.
I would advocate for a modern high quality steel to be better than a pattern welded steel. Not as pretty, and not as satisfying to use, but for sure better.
I think it also matters because it goes to show that progress is not a linear accumulation of knowledge: we lose many precious techniques along the way, and they are far harder to re-find than we tend to imagine.
Damascus Steel would be a good name for a cyberpunk detective
Or a love interest from a cheap romance novel.
You know how in early 2000s it was discovered that true Damascus steel has carbon nano-tubes in it? Well a few weeks ago I was checking up on the reserch into how this could have been achieved. Mind you, I did not see onee reference to anyone involved being a master smith. Just a load of physics. Apparently they are now well on their way to declaring that it was made either with ore or additives that no longer exist. You know, because they cannot recreate the technique, so it had to rely on things they can't get anymore, can't be they just can't figure out the very specific sequence of actions the ancient masters.
Damascus steel when analysed shows about 0.3% manganese, molybdenum or vanadium and 1.5% carbon.
Basically it is a chrome molybdenum carbon steel alloy.
The research team you'd be interested in was comprised of 3 people:
World renowned metallurgist John Verhoeven, Vice President of Nucor Steel Bill Dauksch, and Master Bladesmith Al Pendray.
The scholarly paper produced is entitled "The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades", which is as simple to find as a copy/paste into Google.
There is a video you will want to watch entitled "The Secrets of Wootz Damascus Steel" on the channel Loades of History, which is owned by Mike Loades, the BBC ancient warfare expert. The video is outstanding, and not to be missed by anyone seriously interested in "real" damascus.
The team not only figured out the actual ratios of materials in the original wootz crucible damascus steel...they were eventually able to reproduce it. Unfortunately, the man with the skill to do so, Al Pendray, passed away in 2017.
I wonder if You could make a video on bronze age weapons and how amazingly they have preserved.
I could! I have relatively little interest in the northern European bronze age though, so brace yourself for late Minoans!
@@TheWelshVikingI'm up for that. I haven't taken a good look at the Minoans for years.
Thanks to Mr Truran my history teacher who first sparked my interest.
@@TheWelshViking I'm all up for that. Or the Sumerians.
@@TheWelshVikingI'm so up for some Minoans!
Minoans are great!
This is interesting, not just because I'm a history nerd too, but because I have a firend who studied for fifteen years to learn ancient - modern mosaic techniques. He's a master mosaic artist. His pieces sell in the thousands and tens of thousands because each piece of glass or tile was handmade first before being cut. I also know someone who works in fashion, and we think those expensive gowns are just flashy clothes, but there's technique involved down to the weaving of the cloth that's been passed on by cultures for generations that go into each of those fancy dresses. Sometimes these art forms keep our history alive! So those techniques aren't lost to time.
I remember my disappointment when I saw that smithing UA-cam channel do a pattern weld by making a steel box and just willy nilly tossing different grades of steel into it. The results was pretty, but as an apprentice blacksmith I feel cheated and a bit of professional... disappointment with them. Like, one the blade is now extremely brittle and two they kept calling it Damascus steel.
I think I know exactly who you're talking about
The dragon gets cooler every single time 😊
I’m so chuffed!
True facts!
Thank you. I had the joy and the misfortune of teaching English Literature and Art History. It was a great job as it allowed endless opportunities for research and the delight of sharing the results with students who often actually cared. YOU often are the person who shows me the flaws in my scholarship - through my own errors and deficiencies or those of the sources I believed. One would think that this would be soul-crushing, but I find it wonderful. Many of the things I was taught in classrooms were presented by believers who believed (as I sometimes did) in faulty information. As long as I can still enjoy the digging - I live. Thank you. (P.S. Would you consider giving some information on sourcing an actually good sword. I have been led to believe that a U S Naval dress sword is a really fine weapon - as well as quite pretty. How do I know if this is true?)
This video allowed me to finally figure out why I love this and so many other history channels on UA-cam. These videos are like the days where my profs in uni got to lecture on one of the topics they really loved, as opposed to had to cover for the curriculum. And I don't even have to write an essay twice a semester 😊.
First! 😁 A morning with a new Welsh Viking video is a good morning!
It's a happy day when u upload 😊
Shucks! Oh you!
I'm loving how Jimmy is practically calling out Foraged in Fire.
I do like some nice pattern welding too honestly but this is fascinating 👀
Valyrian Steel most likely. The missing ingredient is dragons
So this is definitely the inspiration for Valyrian steel in the GRR Martin books, yeah? I love spotting all of the actual history-inspired things in those books :)
Notes: Hard and tough are two different qualities when talking about steel. Tough means resistant to breaking and hard means, well hard. Hard steels hold an edge better, but tend to be more brittle.* There are different techniques to try to get a blade with both qualities. Damascus was one, as are heat treating, lamination, and pattern-welding.
A note on pattern welding, aka modern Damascus. There are varying qualities as well as fakes. The number of layers means higher price and supposedly a better end product. The types of steel used makes a difference in quality as well.
*This is a simplification, but it gives the general idea.
Also worth mentioning that while pattern-weld is *not* Damascus, it *is* historically accurate to the Viking age/migration era, as there are plenty of examples of spears and swords from that time which had pattern-welded blades, even some exhibiting complex, expressive patterns that suggest that this was an art form in its own right
Yes, pattern welding was around long before they had Damascus patterned blades. They didn’t start calling pattern welded blades Damascus blades until they were tying to capitalize on the reputation of Damascus pattern blades.
I've always wanted a seax made of wootz. I think it might be a cool hypothetically historically plausible piece
Yyesssssss
a Seax wouldn't have been made of crucible steel, far to expensive and rare back then, they were usually made of wrought iron with a carbon steel cutting edge or pattern welded
@@andyc750 Even an etched wrought iron blade can give some quite surprising patterning after deep etching.
@@bigoldgrizzly I know but that is due to slag in the material and why it was often folded so often, it is wrought is very different to pattern welding and true Damascus, the pattern is like the grain in a piece of timber
@@andyc750 Quite so, One of the reasons I love working with wrought iron is the fact that it has this inherent grain rather than a bland homogeneous modern steel. It would certainly been the most easily available and most used material, with inserts of expensive higher carbon steel to give a better quality blade edge. Etching gives a subtle effect far less pronounced than that of pattern welded steel.
Interesting topic. It's crazy to think of the number of skills that were extremely important at one time that have simply been forgotten because they were no longer popular or marketable. Some skills like Dhaka muslin were even deliberately forced out by competing groups so only their way would be used.
It pays to be skeptical of anything you read especially when someone is trying to sell you something.
I'm off to watch the other videos. Thanks.
Came here because I keep seeing the articles about the bronze age sword uncovered in modern day Germany and I just needed to come to your channel to hear you chat about history. Found this new upload and SERENDIPITY RULES THE DAY!
Can you *please* come to my homeplace and sit down for a few minutes? Just so some rain is dripping down? The water shortage is getting serious
I blame Red from Overly Sarcastic for getting me interested, HOWEVER I took it upon myself to learn how modern Damascus is by no means comparable
I have been saying this for years. And the number of times people have said I am a fool or worse lol.
This whole damascus vs pattern welded thing is a bit tricky in terms of nomenclature ..
Because i get the feeling that as the 18th and 19thcentury wore on, the term damascus became maybe a catchall term for any patterned steel
We have, for example, 'damascus gun barrels' as a term where rifle, shotgun and musket barrels were made of 2 or 3 bands or iron wrapped in a helix around a mandrel then welded
This had a variety of names but was sometimes known as twist damascus barrels in the 19th century and even earlier
One article alleges( key word) that some 17th century gunsmiths were even trying to directly imitate the crucible steel blades of various ottoman and other eastern troops
Check out also LK Chen's attempts at making Chinese "Fried Steel", which is what the Han were doing 2000 years ago. Similar idea, bordering on blast furnace from my understanding, but definitely no longer bloomery.
Hello to York ! Such interesting information as always - thank you Jimmy ❣️
I bought myself a beautiful Szechuan pattern-welded knife as a treat, as chefs are known to do, and apparently the mordern practice and method of pattern-welding makes it very pretty but very very brittle. Removalists decided it was perfectly fine to use my beautiful knife to undo the screws on my bed frame prior to packing it into the truck and snapped the end clean off. I'm still very sad about it. I cant even look at it anymore.
Could you reshape it?
Every time you say Damascus steel with such conviction, it makes me so happy. I just love your passion in sharing history. I only discovered your channel fairly recently and I am binging. I absolutely love your videos.
It also helps to have a sexy history teacher to make everything more exciting. 😉
interestingly, my first introduction to the idea of pattern welded steel came in the 90's when i was exploring polymer clay techniques. there is a technique used to create many layers of different clay colors (sometimes including translucent) and running them through a pasta machine to press them thinner. manipulating the resulting stack with impressed patterns resulted in a wood grain or watermark design. the technique was called Mokume-Gane and traced back to Japanese/Asian metalworking practices of the same name. about 10 years later, i had my second exposure to pattern welded steel in the form of a video about the search for the lost techniques of Damascus steel. there they gave a similar (though less researched) assertion that pattern welded steel was not the traditional Damascus steel.... long before the internet was covered in options to buy.
in defense of the sellers labeling their work as Damascus steel nowadays, in all likelihood, the don't have much choice. SEO driven traffic controls a lot of commercial success online nowadays and it has changed the way terms are used based on what attracts views. i notice this a lot with wool. if you are looking to buy wool for spinning, almost all prepared wool will be called roving, for example, even though the majority of what is available is combed top. people who are new to the craft have a hard time learning the difference because of the ubiquitousness of the term, and so the term is used more often in what becomes a feedback loop. those who know better can't avoid it without losing traffic.
I think what people REALLY need to realize is that old Damascus steel is now called wootz, and Damascus steel is now the trade term for pattern welding. Language marches on. In America, you don't spot flutterbyes and coneys in the field. You get coneys at Sonic before you watch the butterflies.
Glad to see this was posted before I could do it. ❤
Interesting! I’ve been hearing that term for about 60 years now and while I got the message that it was special,I had no idea how special…and beautiful it was/ is. Thank you as ever Jimmy. Hope the PhD studies are going well. Xx
Someone needs to show Alec Steel this video. He make a lot of patterned wielded items and calls it Damascus steel. I've known the the truth about Damascus steel before I stumbled onto his channel, so I tuned out of those episodes after the first one I saw him use that. I didn't know the name of the technique at the time (patterned folding). Now, do I think Alec Steel is being deceitful or dishonest? Not really. I think he learned this really cool technique, and his sources sources (probably just as unknowingly) passed on bad information to him. I think if he knew the actual history, he would call his stuff differently.
If you showed this to Alec,I imagine he'd say the same thing the rest of us modern bladesmiths would say, and that's that Damascus is now commonly used by modern handlers to describe pattern welded steel. Do we know it's not crucible steel that was made a thousand years ago using a vein of iron someone found that had some crazy "alloy" in the original form that made an amazing blade for a thousand years ago? Yes bro, we know that. We also know that because our technology is light years ahead of what is was a thousand years ago that a basic high carbon steel from today that is well heat treated is miles above "true Damascus" of old.
So off topic, I remember seeing a Bollywood movie Baahubali and there was this scene where they were testing swords. And none of them were good enough for the protagonist 😂😂😂. It's interesting that real history supports that ridiculous amazing epic film.
So my old shotgun (father's, father's and so on scenario) has what are called damascus barrels, but they are really pattern welded steel? Doesn't sound anywhere near as romantic.
Damasc-aint? Da-scam-us? This has been a major pet peeve of mine for years lol
The infuriating thing about the issue is that people who truly SHOULD know better will happily continue the sham. The term damascus has been genericized (a legal term)...losing it's original meaning entirely. And all because they want a cool marketing name to sell pattern welded blades.
People worth listening to now refer to the genuine article as "wootz crucible damascus steel".
There's nothing like modern industrial grade steel, but some people can't get it.
So, considering the material is so much more superior than the local steel used at the time in Europe during the Viking period, I wonder if swords made from Damascus steel contribute to legendary swords that are described in folklore.
Also, Damascus steel was used to make blades like swords and knives. However, is there any record or evidence of Damascus steel being used to make other weapons, such as axes, spears, or arrowheads?
I was so confused when I visited Damasus as a kid and saw a bunch of Damascus steel shops, when I knew it was a lost technique! But its a great selling point, to be fair
So, was the steel made as a raw material & then smithed into a sword afterwards, or did it have to be made into its final (or near final) form during the initial process?
Does this mean that Japanese swordsmiths are also making pattern wielded blades?
Say Hyper Utectoid again for me. Because thats some Sci Fi stuff right there
I saw a nice looking Damascus steel knife at a show. In tiny letters was printed “made in China”
Great video! Thank you for explaining why modern Damascus steel isn't the legendary damascus steel. This was interesting just as someone mildly interested in blacksmithing.
But, what is a hoverfly? is that like a dragonfly? A Canadian wants to know.
It’s a waspy looking flying insect that moves with a pattern of quick darts and static hovers. They don’t tend to cause any trouble.
They are a bee mimic! And we have them in Canada too. Cute lil pollinators :)
@@obansrinathan their Larvae also eat decaying plant matter or pests like thrips and aphids so they're rly good for your plants! And they're cute
Wootz ya talkin about? :)
My dedication and expenses for historical re-enactment limit me to swords constructed of cardboard and aluminum foil.
Does the damask fabric have that name for the same reason, the patterning? I think I've heard it called watered silk.
Yes!
Damask is named for the city, but it's actually a type of very intricate weaving that results in a pattern on the front and back of the fabric. Watered silk, aka moire, is a finishing technique that involves getting silk wet and pressing it between rollers.
@@kellyburds2991 Thanks!
Another interesting video. Thank you so much.
i watched a documentary on a guy that was recreating an Ulfbert sword and there was a point where he said "i don't need a sword but i have to make them, not because i can't make anything else, but because i CANT make anything else", thats all i just love that quote and it never leaves me and i thought i'd share it
Wootz is still around and there's a few people that will make it, its essentially a high carbon content of about 1.2 to 1.8% with some vanadium in there for hardness, some trace chromium and the rest is a crucible process. What got lost over the years was the ores to make it, most of the mines in India and Syria were depleted some time ago a bit after the 18th century. Its quite a difficult material to use in the sense that its a bespoke melt when you get the end product that isn't going to react exactly the same as the material in a similar melt that's done roughly the same time and that comes back to how its processed and ultimately heat treated. You can't really give it very high temperatures during the refining process or it burns out all the carbon and generally the hardening and tempering process is about as variable. There is even some apocrypha that in some steels where not even hardened and hammer-forged out almost completely cold in some sort of age-hardening process that I'm kind of so-so on taking for what its worth but I'm hardly an expert and this video just popped up in my list on youtube
(but I am a full time cutler)
Needless to say, wootz is a completely rubbish material for industrialised processes and really the other reason that people threw it in the too hard bucket, no ones rolling up to your merchant to order 30,000 munition grade bayonets, sabres and other pokey objects from your foreign sources- they went to England, Germany, Spain, France and Italy when they wanted a lot of metal objects to fit out the vast armies of the time. Leaving the bespoke manufacturers of such things to just local demand from whoever. Its why you see 'trade blades' from about the 16th century onward show up in everywhere from central Africa with a Solingen proof or in the Americas from the Brits, French and Spanish. So even while they 'could' make their bespoke crucible steels, even the people who could, wanted more and the European processes was BETTER in the sense you have more blokes in the field with a sharp object that was functional than the other guy and the real killing began. Add to that, swords really only had a use up until blackpowder was being phased out as your 'better than nothing' alternative in a gun fight and the gun itself was probably the greatest equaliser in terms of warfare over time that further diminished the importance of edged weaponry.
In terms of wootz today versus modern metals, there's no comparison really. Our modern metallurgy has left it in the dust long ago to the point something like our basic UK or US produced 1084 steels would outperform anything made in the per-industrial era by a very large margin. Plus when you buy it by the bulk in an order, every tonne you have will heat treat exactly the same as the last sheet you cut up and will be perfectly serviceable. That's just basic 1084, the newbie starter steel you give the up and coming knife makers to use, practice on and can make a blade better than some master in the 17th century in terms of shock resistance, hardness and edge holding and its 'barely' a high carbon steel at 0.8% carbon content.
Then look at the high alloy, modern tool steels- these are many generations better than anything else, they're super fine grained, insanely tough, have edge holding for days and essentially makes the modern world what it is by those properties alone for machining tools. Somewhere if you want something that will put up with a 500kw, 12000nm of torque shredding machine that eats car bodies and engine blocks for breakfast it'll have teeth and blades made out of something like S7 or A8Mod and that's commonly available to anyone with the cash who wants to make a knife out of it. (I do sometimes and its absolutely bonkers!)
So wootz had its time, but its more or less an artisan hobby and has been for about the last 3-400 years as industrialisation wiped it out, its pretty cool, you can still make it. Actually making anything out of it takes a lot of work though so its hardly economically viable to do those melts for people without some kind of extra funding to do it.
My ancient brain has the memory of being told (or it was a movie) that ... Samurai sword were made with steel folded 100x over. Which I thought was like Damascus steel.
Thats why you shouldn't get your history from movies. Or tv. Or books. Not all books. It get complicated.
take a look at mokume gane. it's a form of pattern welding that originated in japan
Thank you Jimmy, I was ignorant to what was real Damascus steel!
Although why is it that we can not rediscover these lost methods,,,
I once knew an old school genuine metalogist (hope the spelling holds up)
Any I once knew this guy, a Yorkshire man (who incidentally destroyed my wooden sword, with his, whilst doing the swordy fighty bit in a mummers play)
Back to my point,,,, he would often tell me of old steels that out performed modern steels, but again how they made these metals no one knows the secret craft was lost and never passed on
Such a secretive bunch, that guarded their ways so closely, it would appear that modern metalogist give up too easily "o it's a lost art"
Surely it would be easier for the mods to rediscover, then the labour's the original inventors! 🤪
There is no secret about the wootz steel from the Damascus age. I read about complete reconstruction of wootz steel in original crucibles over 40 years ago using the same technique used in India. No secret to metallurgists at all,
Yay a video i know stuff about. Maybe I can contribute some knowledge..........nope..... That pretty much covers it ^^
He is alive!!❤❤❤❤❤ The day Jimmy uploads video is always a great day! Thank you Jimmy!!!
I have a question for nitpicking Jimmy (Any of the Jimmys will do 😉). How does the japanese forging and metallurgy compare to damascus steel? I would love to hear your toughts on this. Thx! Greetings from Hordafylkir.
Japanese iron was generally absolutely awful, hence the need for extensive folding and forging techniques/m. But I’m no expert!
@@TheWelshViking Thank you! The reason for me asking this, is that to me at least, the steel used on the japanese swords looks a lot like damascus steel/folded steel. Nowadays it is all the rage, even Ikea sells knives in "damascus steel". Again, thank you. 👋
@@TheWelshViking that's actually a really nuanced question with an equally nuanced answer. The ORE available in Japan is generally low quality, that is to say low yield, and it is very difficult to smelt due to it being extremely fine particles. That's why it's provided in a specific variety of bloomery furnace. That said, once the smelting process is complete, the technique yields a relatively high carbon steel bloom that retains enough carbon after repeated forge welding to make excellent blades. Ilya from That works channel did a piece all about steel comparisons that's a great watch, and it comprehensible to non experts. I shall go find it and attach it in another comment
@@nickverbree Thank you. 👍
What an awesome video, historical metallurgy is so cool. Who knew "true" damascus had such a drastically different process to pattern-weld, I always thought they were more similar. It should also be noted that pattern-welded steel is also historical to the Viking period and before (I believe the Sutton Hoo sword was pattern welded), and like damascus, can also be stronger than the sum of the steels used (if good steels are used, you can also just forge weld pure iron and weld steel together and as long as they have different carbon contents/ trace metals in them, they will make a pretty pattern. The result will be pretty, but weak). It is not as strong as damascus was purported to be, but pattern welded blades were still considered high-status weapons due to the extra time and skill involved, and they were probably more common in Scandinavia than true damascus because the materials could be sourced much closer to home. All this to reinforce Jimmy's point of if you want a pattern welded blade because you can't find true damascus, go for it, just make sure the steel is actually two different steels as opposed to a cheap monosteel that's been laser-engraved or, heaven forbid, painted.
Most black Smith's probably don't know what actually Damascus is, for all intensive purposes pattern welding steel is Damascus steel, actually Damascus is just a different thing
A'reyt Jimmy. Welcome to Yorkshire. This was like a crystallography lecture at university crossed with my readings on Vikings to play Ancients wargames for the university team.
I am here thanks to Brandon. I had originally been a Napoleonic wargamer, but shifted to get a game.
I remember at university thinking it was likely such skills that got my ancestors their name, though the skill with horses was the one that was passed on right to my dad's generation. I gave up on Vikings as a competition army as the lack of horses made it impossible to score points, as I have mentioned to fellow Viking fans in comments on History With Hilbert and Scotland History Tours before, but being from Yorkshire they would always be first choice.
Where did you find "Vikings" in Yorkshire instead of Danes and Norvegians?
Seriously, the overuse of the V-word HAS to stop. It's in its native language a very narrow term for any Norse voyager going on a tour. Rampaging, trading, fishing or even sightseeing. Throughout most of the Danelag's history the norse people in Britain would not have seen themselves as "Vikings" as thery SETTLED THERE and wanted to stay. Compare to "normans" in the northeast of France., Not "french vikings", but settled Northmen...
Calling anything remotely scandinavian from that period "viking" is the REAL MYTH that should have been fought, killed and buried in this series!
@@Ugly_German_Truths I used the name in the Channel name. It was also the word in the wargames army list. A commenter on those other channels refers to me as "King of Danelaw" because I usually refer to that. Unfortunately the English word in common usage is Viking, so I think it is a case of Hardrada luck pal.
I noticed recently I couldn't remember the historical details of Damascus steel, so thank you for this excellent refresher on this charming mott
alright butty, come here over there and let me tell you a question? what boots them shoes? im looking for 12th - 14th centuary, low middle class, poatcher, hunter. diolch mark
FINALLY, OMFG THANK YOU!!! I'm so sick of seeing people claiming that what they are making is "Damascus" when all they have is pattern weld
The "Damascus" in Damascus Steel sounds very like how the (presumably Crusading) Franks are invoked in the name of Frankincense (which certainly is not Frankish in actual origin).
So to clarify not all pattern welded folded steel is Damascus steel. But is Damascus steel also a type of folded steel but using a very specific forging technique? Like is Damascus folded steel or a mono steel?
Damascus is a form of steel made from a specifically crucible wootz steel made using iron with specific trace element inclusions
Watch the video entitled "The Secrets of Wootz Damascus Steel" if you're truly interested.
Catching up after being away for awhile. This really quite interesting! It’s really funny how people tend to latch onto “Named” things like Damascus steel. Thank you for sharing. (Quietly dying because it’s over 90 degrees F and our AC isn’t working 😅)
for most people buying blades for reenactment wouldn't need an actual damascus steel blade- unless you plant on using it you wouldn't be able to tell the difference?
They shouldn't be selling something under false pretences thought :(
Some people will buy sharps for demonstrations, and I guess if you found some good Wootz steel to show its quality in cutting that would be fun.
But yeah, very true!
I saw a woman on UA-cam chopping wood with a sword. Apparently it was specifically made for that purpose.
I'm not sure what it's made of, but it was damn impressive. 😃
@@TheWelshViking there are some smiths out there making wootz replicas. I think the thing in mind though is, as magical as crucible steel is, it doesn't hold a candle to modern steel. A modern replica will out cut it every time.
Damascus steel comes originally from the area of Damas and then suddenly ppl are calling it damascus steel, but many sites have been found all over the area of Damas. But what ppl see all over the internet is cheap made, even crudely made with alot of imperfections in it. Pattern welded steel is what the vikings used etc. I am glad you mentioned Damas and the misconception that ppl think it is damascus steel. Tack från Sverige.
I saw an engrossing documentary about a man who researched and experimented for most of his working life to understand and create genuine Wootz Crucible steel. The difference is obvious and essential.
I , like you , am disappointed in the way the term Damascus has been hijacked by welded steel makers.
I'm sure you're referring to the 3 man team of John Verhoeven (metallurgist), Bill Dauksch (Nucor steel executive), and Al Pendray (master bladesmith). I'd wager the documentary you watched was "The Secrets of Wootz Damascus Steel" on Loades of History (YT channel).
I had the honor of meeting Al Pendray a number of years back at a knife show and hearing first hand about how wootz is made and the difference between it and pattern welded steel. He was an engaging personality and absolutely passionate about the steel!
I wish I could have afforded to buy one of his blades...
YOU FUCKING ROOOOOOOCK!!! 🤘😁
[ **ahem** ] Just sayin' 😉lol
I must say (as a guy who has done some blacksmithing and made my steel from sand and carbon) that much of this is linguistics. "Damascus" in modern usage IS pattern welded steel. It isn't a scam, its just how the word is used. Well educated smiths will make a distinction. But in a world where people call everything runes and can't tell elder futhark from younger do you really think they can speak to the structure in iron alloys? Language changes. You know. As an engineer i perked up when you mentioned wootz and crucible ateel because in discussions of "Damascus" these terms come up often as do terms like Austenite and Martensite and occasionally tamahagane. It is complicated and i do appreciate the video.
Most of the videos in this series made me think: “So that’s where George RR Martin got the idea”. In this case Damascus=Valyrian Steel
The claim to “secret knowledge” in the various sectors it shows up in (the more woo-woo side of the diet/wellness industry leaps to mind) just strikes me as reinventing Gnosticism for our profit-above-all economic situation.
Selling patternwelded as damascus with reasonable price tag is little grey area. Selling PW blade with crucible steel (closest to real damascus) price tag is robbing people. Some sell even etched blades as damascus with hudge price tag what is also robbing. I think it is legally fraud.
I think it's cool to think about having experiences in common with historical people about mundane things like trying to buy something and finding out it wasn't what you thought it was.
It's cool how much historical metalworking is relative to what materials and tools are available concurrently. I don't think it's surprising that most modern smiths aren't replicating ancient techniques! The technique seems unlikely to be suited for the materials and equipment that modern smiths can find
The thing is even if its not damascus but good quality patern welded blade using high quality modern sleels which are most probably superior to the old true damascus you will have a truly good blade,but remember the patern is just simply for looks and doesn't add to the proformance of sword or knife 😊
I actually have several modern pattern welded blades, including a sword, an axe, a Seax, a "Talon" blade, a small hatchet-like blade, and several knives, including a folding knife. They are very sharp and I love the patterns in the steel, which makes them look quite magical - the small hatchet is a pattern of spots and rings resembling "eyes", the pattern in the Seax looks like a series of large fingerprints along the blade, the sword almost resembles the patterns of a topographical map of a series of hills or large mounds, the rest are various styles of wavy water-like patterns. I love them all (16 total currently, the lowest cost was $45USD for the folding knife, the highest was $225USD for the sword) and I have no illusions of them being anything but modern pattern welded blades (and good quality ones too). I'm currently in the process of creating a series of leather sheaths and scabbards for them all, some of them built into a cross-body shoulder bag made from a silver fox pelt (loosely based on a badger pelt black powder "possibles bag" and a similar muskrat pelt shoulder bag my mother made in the mid 1970's), some built into a kind of backpack made from a coyote pelt, some made to attach to a belt or baldric (the folding knife is going into a cleavage sheath 😆). Fun times.
As a blacksmith I am aware the modern use of Damascus is referring to different alloys of steel welded together (mostly involving some manipulation like twisting to get more complex patterns), nonetheless this is an actual historical thing to do there are hundreds of the pattern welded blades/spears/axes/guns and what not throughout history from Roman swords to Ottoman guns and the patterns can go insanely complex and they really knew what pattern they wanted and how to get them. As mentioned iron quality wasn't the best and folding and welding is a way to get impurity's out and one theory is that the patterns occurred to demonstrate the blade smiths skills because you can spot flaws and the more complex the better the smith so you knew it was high quality and wouldn't snap the first blow you hit.
Different alloy occur naturally depending where the ore originated from so iron from Germany might be harder, hold edge better but is slightly more brittle then iron from England but combined they make a better sword then alone
you can actually pattern weld the same steel as the carbon is drawn towards the weld, different alloys just make it pop more (like nickel gives a more silver line)
every time you heat a piece you lose some quality so pattern welded steel can never be better then modern steel
all this just to say modern Damascus isn't historically inaccurate it just didn't go by that name, pattern welding is insanely hard especially if you want to recreate the same pattern as every thing you do differently impacts the final results and you can say about ancient Damascus what you want but we can't be certain as we still haven't figured it out.
anyway love the video keep up the good work
btw for those whose patterned blades are fading: soaking it in used coffee grind should bring it back at it is slightly acidic but doesn't eat the blade like more aggressive acids... unless you have been scammed and the pattern is just etched in :o
Weird thing is pattern welded swords (at least of certain types) are more historically accurate than wootz
I'd go further, if someone is selling something called Damascus steel it's pattern weld. The few smiths trying recreate accurate Damascus use the name Wootz
Was Alexander the “big” the same as that “son of Philip of masadonia”guy?
Here in the states doing 18th century reenactment and we have long rifles and knifes being called Damascus steel as well, great channel I’m glad I ran across you
I agree, but language change over time, and calling it Damascus steel is not incorrect, but its not talking about the same thing. So to fix this, we can call it modern and old Damascus
A friend of mine told me that modern items sold as Damascus steel are often made from Ex Cold War tank armour.
So I love your video, so amazing~ and I looked into this on my own years ago because it cropped up in a piece of fiction I was reading. So it is really awesome to see you dive into this with your level of education!
Is this steel still being made in japan? I saw a craftsman being the last of a few who make katana from an ancient method. ❤ from Canada
Could it be called damascus steel because that's where the traders who spread them into europe said they got it from?
Thank you for the video!
I also think it's worth being a bit careful w the differences because sometimes we can be kind of misled into the rather disappointing idea that people historically were overawed by things that *don't stand up* anymore. Not to lessen the awesomeness of pattern welding, because frankly that looks insanely cool even knowing that it isn't a supersteel of some sort, but they are nonetheless different things.
Thank you for the video!
Shout out to Jimmy's pretty camera-hoverfly!
Shocked we didn't get a Allo' Allo' soundbite for "Collaborator!" XD
Oh nuts, what a mistake-a to make-a!
Helga may not kiss you now.
Just a note on scandinavian iron at 10:30 - Scandinavian bog ore and the iron/steel you get out of it is actually of very good quality (swedish steel was incredibly sought after up until like 1980 :)). Sure, the iron age bloomeries are incredibly resource consuming and only yields a few kg's of iron compared to the medieval blastfurnaces, but the quality was 🤌
I mean… not really all that good in the period at all tbh if we’re talking Denmark and Norway
@TheWelshViking True. Norwegian ore had a lot of phosphorus, making the tap bloom more common there to avoid the iron becoing too brittle. Denmark on the other hand, with their bedrock? Can't even begin to speculate. Cool thing is also that there is evidence that "swedes" around Uppland began experimenting in rock ore during the vendel period and that some of the fellas in the Vendel graves might have been Bergsmän (magnates owning part in a mine). So i think quality was likely never a general issue when it came to weapons. Quantity however was. Production of weapons in scandinavia would be nothing compared to the quantity produced by the franks, holy roman empire or brits:)
The pattern plate welding does give more surfaces for impurities to remain in the metal. This as a baseline is probably a good area to begin trying to add manganese or other metal ore, in attempts to recreate it
Someone tell me how I can grow a beard as glorious as Jimmy
"**doing** 'ooOh!'" -The Lord of The Rings
"Alexander the Big"??? Come on, he deserves better than that. Are you reading the "Unconquerable Sun"/"Furious Heaven" series of gender-swapped Alexander the Great (in space) books??? Because you (and everyone) totally should. It's really good.
It’s a Shakespeare reference.
Europeans absolutely made crucible steel.
Ulfberts are a famous example. Well, a part of them anyways...
Probably the cutting edges only, but still, crucible steel.
Same deal as 'Damascus' crucible steel, albeit a bit different in the alloying elements.
You also dont need a blast furnace to make it, some chaps tried it using mostly period methods. It does require some form a kiln though, enclosed, like a those modern little metal foundries.
Just to add another note. Those chaps I mentioned that worked on the project determined that the only reason why the pattern is as it is is Vanadium present in that specific ore. Nothing else...
Well, nothing else in the alloy, but there is a lot of caveat in how you have to work the puck to achieve it. A bit too hot or too cold, for a bit longer and the pattern is ruined. So it is highly specific, but the real magic is in the ore :)
I’m not aware of any of the original viking age ulfberhts having definitively European produced crucible steel elements, only some hardened cutting edges, so if you’ve got a link to the paper that describes the metallurgy I’d be very eager to read it!
I’m also not aware of any viking age European true crucible steel production, so again if you have a link to that I’d be very pleased to read it!
@@TheWelshViking you and me both 😅
It was a very long time ago I read anything regarding that topic. I barely managed to remember that documentary by Mike, linked further up somewhere.
Basically, its not anything special with modern steels, so it kind of lost its charm for me. Our most plain steels are now super steels to the super steels of the middle ages. And we literally have a subgroup of modern steels called 'super steels' so yeah... 😅🤣
If I do manage to dig something up though, Im definite to link it here :)
Out of curiosity, do you have any links to read upon, where it is specifically stated that the steel of an ulfbert was specifically that damasus crucible steel were talking about?
Since I could have sworn that it was another steel entirely 😆
Tod at Tod's Workshop UA-cam has several videos on pattern welding Viking swords.
Yes, he’s a very fine craftsman