I have one with 1200 miles on the clock and have the same feedback. It's perfect for my use case, short trips, running errands, never more than an hour in the saddle. I also love how easy it is to leave "more powerful" gas bikes behind at red lights. Very disappointed in the local Harley-Davidson dealer support. My mountain bike got more dealer suspension setup and tuning followup than Harley-Davidson provided.
Wow! Fast and furious presentation chock full of useful information. I'm not ready to give up my Zero SR/S, but I definitely find this bike compelling.
I've had mine since November. It's great for my short 5 mile commute to my business. I charge there while it sits for most of the day. Great for cutting through So Cal traffic. Note, I flipped the mirrors upside down to split lanes easier. I'm enjoying it. Fast and fun
Oh you can have a lot of fun then with just 5 miles commuting, lol! I think I’m too tall to flip the mirrors, I have to crank my head down too far to see what’s behind me.
I agree with all of this! I only have a few hundred miles on mine, but it's so fun and very different from a LiveWire One, which is great, giving consumers choices. I'm far more likely to hop on the Del Mar for a quick jaunt, and use the One for longer trips. I also like that you just inserted "Oh look, a phone call from Charlie Boorman, ho hum, not again..." in the video. :)
That's exactly how I use the Del Mar and LW1. Every now and then I'll take the LW1 on a local ride, but it certainly hasn't gotten as much use since I've had the Del Mar
Nice video you answered pretty much every question someone could ask about the bike. Not only are there a lot more L2 chargers than DCFC but there are also a lot of free ones in my area and the L2 is way cheaper to use here too.
About AC availability, most of AC chargers are used to get a little free or small cost charge, especially by hybrids car with small batteries with only AC ports (because they wouldn't benefit much by higher speed). Installation cost is very small, and basically every decent size shop can afford to install one, especially to attract customers (which is also why you see lower charging rates sometimes). The same cannot be said for DC chargers, as cars expect to charge between 150 kW to 300 kW, which require liquid cooled cables, of course delivery of such power to the charging point (which cannot be just attached to the already existing shop power line), and big cooled transformers that require a lot of space, it's big and it doesn't reside on the cabin where the cable comes from, it's the other bigger structure. You also don't need that many, because AC chargers can deliver up to 22 kW and it would take 6 hours to completely charge it. Meanwhile you can charge the same car in half an hour. You can serve 12 times more vehicle in the same time. So you need 12 times less chargers to satisfy the needs. Beside that, usually it's convenient to have many DC charging points attached to the same infrastructure, because of how they are connected. As you show, 10 000 locations, averaging 4 charging point each. Meanwhile AC has 60 000 locations, averaging 2,4 charging point each, because usually you have 1, 2, or 4 points in the parking lot where you can charge while you buy groceries or whatever, a low cost for the owner, while DC require a bigger investment and commitment, and managed by the companies. You also don't need many charging locations, because you need much less stops, and shorter too, to satisfy the charging needs. According to your data, on average the US can serve more than twice DC users than AC in the same period of time. In reality Zero and Livewire going only AC aren't increasing your options as you can always charge Livewire (One) and Energica at AC points too, but in reality they are cutting you off from 22% of the total charging points, and forcing longer stops. This argument would make sense only if there are some route that would literally impossibile to reach in some cases, or the AC limit at 3 kW for those bikes would make them longer. Which is not the case, especially compared to all other routes that are enabled with DC.
@@AdventuresonZero I might have to check that out, thanks for the tip. The Del Mar would definitely be my choice, love the styling and riding position of it. Plus level 2 charging is way more common where I'm at (also near Virginia).
The charging difference between home and commercial charging is likely related to 240v single phase (home) vs 208 volt three phase (commercial). Given the same max amperage, the commercial circuit will charge with less power. Seems unlikely to be a communication issue, J1772 signaling is very basic and is well sorted.
Very interesting, both about the Del Mar and how the USA is way behind the UK in DC fast charging stations. To help us understand your statements comparing the Livewire Del Mar to other bikes, which electric motorcycles have you ridden? (I've just owned a Zero DSR and an Energica Experia and done test rides on an Energica Esse Esse and Zero SR/S and DSR/X.)
Yeah the infrastructure is very different here in the US. Does the general public push back on EVs there? I’ve ridden 2017 Zero DSR (owned), 2021 Zero DSR, 2022 Zero SR/F and /S, 2019 (?) Energica Eva Ribelle (Steven Day’s Bike), all LiveWire One, S2 Del Mar, S2 Mulholland, and some custom made bikes made from a hodge podge of components
I'd love to hear about your experiences on doing long trips in the UK and Europe on the Energicas and Zeros. Is it easy to find working DCFC stations and are they filled up with EV cars most of the time?
@@fallinginthed33p I only rode the energica once, but I've done lots of long trips on the DSR - put about 13k miles on the bike in 9 months. Pulling up to a DC charger and there being a queue happens about 5% of the time and usually just during the week.
You say about reduced maintenance costs. Can someone give some examples on the cost of service they incurred? Also, I don't know if the b-roll of service book was showing the actual Livewire book, but if yes, then the interval is shorter vs ICE bikes which seems strange... Thanks in advance!
Most of the low maintenance costs are endemic to pretty much all electric motorcycles - no chain maintenance on belt drive powertrains, no engine oil to monitor/replace (although some have gear oil to replace every 20k miles), no clutch pad to wear out, brake pads could be replaced less (depending on how you use regen braking), no heat to burn yourself or other components on. Most of the maintenance checks in the owners manual, which is what I showed in the video, are simple enough to do at home and mostly consist of checking torque values and inspecting parts visually. There might be a software update for specific components that can only be done with a digital technician II, however these are far and few between. The servicing intervals are identical to all Harley-Davidson service intervals (1k, 5k, 10k, etc), so not sure what you mean. But again, because there are very little moving components, most of that servicing can be completed by the operator. Interval serving costs are going to vary dealer to dealer, so I can't give you a hard nosed answer on costs.
It looks like the perfect commuter bike if you're doing less than 100 miles a day. Electricity is a lot cheaper than gas, EV maintenance sure beats doing valve checks or Desmo servicing, and you can charge at the office. That being said, I still knock out a couple hundred miles on long weekend rides, so the 70 mile range isn't enough especially when there are few chargers out in the countryside. A 150-mile S3 maybe?
Depending on where you're at, RV campgrounds are perfect charging stops if you have the right EVSE, but that requires calling ahead to make sure it's ok to stop and charge there - some are fine with it and others will charge you. The S3 will be smaller than the Del Mar, kind of like a surron bike. The S4 is supposed to be the bigger, cruiser style bike
Hey Ben maybe you can advise. My wife has the del mar i have the one. She just hit 1000 miles the other day.She got home with it yesterday and plugged it in. Today i went to take it to Harley for its service and it would not come on. Display etc. I checked the 12 v and actually made sure it was charged and put back in. Still nothing. This is the second time this has happened. Is it becuse of update ?What's your thoughts. Thanks much
@@AdventuresonZero soon they will start there showroom in US mostly in 2025 till then u can wait or u can take it and EVs hardly has any issues so nothing to worry
I really want a Mulholland but I don't want to get a motorcycle license... I have several ebikes that are just as fast but have pedals. Don't understand why I need to learn about gears or clutch just to operate an electric motorcycle
It's more than just shifting and gears, you're expected to know how to operate a bike when you go to get licensed - it's more about riding safe on roads
Most MSF courses allow you to take the course on your own bike. So if you really want one, you can buy it and use it for the course and have your license at the end.
biggest thing is weight, first thing I noticed on a motorcycle is how much heavier it is even then suped up ebikes. I agree that I wish more motorcycle courses would start including electrics as an option.
8:11 this is a fallacy. You are assuming that the person who critiques the charging speed is the "average" motorcycle. And what "per motorcycle" means I don't understand: someone who owns two motorcycle is basically reducing the average? Because one person can't drive two vehicles at the same time, so they would count as two lower distance. The average should only consider the riders, not motorcycles, and it should remove the very low end. Just yesterday I came back from a 1470 km trip on my Eva in two days. It means that in two days I've covered about half of the average American. And it would have been literally impossible to do that on AC charging alone, even with the dwindling charging rate because of lacking of battery cooling.
Leaving alone that last data from 2022 shows 2 484 miles per motorcycle (+24% over 2021), that table only considers highway, and motorcycles usually avoid highways especially for recreational use. So that's a wrong source to get this kind of statistic as it excludes a big chunk of data. For 2022 it records 283 million vehicles registered in the entire country, but only 235 million driver licenses (according to table DL-201). So the average is literally done by diving 3 196 191 million miles by 283 million vehicles, reaching an average of 11 278 miles per vehicle. If we use the more sensible number of total licenses we get an average of 13 600 miles per person which is a figure 20% higher (in reality we should exclude the people who have not driven on the highway that year, but I doubt anyone have that statistic). What really skews this data, is the people who have a motorcycle and ride 0 miles. Looking for other data, I've found an article from RevZilla in February 1st 2022 "How many rides do you ride a year?" that in 20218 half of the survey respondent rode less than 1 000 miles. "But the government also admits that its statistics on vehicle miles traveled are not as reliable for motorcycles as they are for cars, trucks, buses and other vehicles. For example, the estimated total vehicle miles traveled by motorcycles were reported as between nine billion and 12 billion for many years through 2006, but jumped by about 50 percent in 2007 and have remained around 20 billion since. People didn't suddenly start riding 50 percent more in 2007, so it's clear that those numbers are just estimates based on formulas that changed." And especially this on a survey in 2021: "On the other end, 13 percent of the respondents in the Voom survey said they never rode their motorcycle at all." Yes, so we can safely take 10% off of the total of motorcycles (9,8 millions in 2021) and we get a +20% of miles travelled just from that, and probably even more. Beside, even with that in mind, the average is not that important, what is important for motorcycle is the long trip. If you can easily cover your daily routine is good, but if it can't cover your longer trips with comfort and you can only afford one bike, than it's a even bigger no. And you are a good example of an exception, having 3 bikes is not something that everyone can afford, especially when 2 are basically the same. One last thing: cars, buses, trucks... they are all used all around the year regardless of the climate, while motorcycle are usually not used in winter or even spring and autumn in the northern parts of the country. That would definitely change the average for the south, and as stated before the perception if used that to estimate longer travels (still a wrong take without sufficient data).
@@AdventuresonZero No, the whole argument in response after that. You can't say that people need to be more realistic on how much they ride looking at averages, especially when the data is wrong. A single person is not the average.
@@AdventuresonZero Nah, the data is fine, just not that useful and especially wrong how you used it (and according to your own data, you average 10 000 miles on two vehicles, instead of 20 000 miles on one person, highlighting how bad that data is for this specific use case). You can't use an average (even including local roads) to determine how much people ride, especially responding to specific comments without knowing their needs, and dismiss their needs. Or I bring my own 1100 km in 11 hours, and what are you gonna do, dismiss that too because it's not the average trip? Yourself mention that group rides and long rides are an issue, so you can't ignore that on one part of the discourse and say that Del Mar is not for you when you *always* exceed those limits. Even once is too much, so if you once ride in large group, or once you take longer trips with someone else it becomes an issue. Well, maybe once is doable, but more starts to be a problem :)
I have one with 1200 miles on the clock and have the same feedback. It's perfect for my use case, short trips, running errands, never more than an hour in the saddle. I also love how easy it is to leave "more powerful" gas bikes behind at red lights. Very disappointed in the local Harley-Davidson dealer support. My mountain bike got more dealer suspension setup and tuning followup than Harley-Davidson provided.
It's a fun bike!!
Really nice presentation …solid content and studio quality videos and script
Much appreciated!
Wow! Fast and furious presentation chock full of useful information. I'm not ready to give up my Zero SR/S, but I definitely find this bike compelling.
🤜🏻🤛🏼
I've had mine since November. It's great for my short 5 mile commute to my business. I charge there while it sits for most of the day. Great for cutting through So Cal traffic. Note, I flipped the mirrors upside down to split lanes easier. I'm enjoying it. Fast and fun
Oh you can have a lot of fun then with just 5 miles commuting, lol! I think I’m too tall to flip the mirrors, I have to crank my head down too far to see what’s behind me.
I agree with all of this! I only have a few hundred miles on mine, but it's so fun and very different from a LiveWire One, which is great, giving consumers choices. I'm far more likely to hop on the Del Mar for a quick jaunt, and use the One for longer trips. I also like that you just inserted "Oh look, a phone call from Charlie Boorman, ho hum, not again..." in the video. :)
That's exactly how I use the Del Mar and LW1. Every now and then I'll take the LW1 on a local ride, but it certainly hasn't gotten as much use since I've had the Del Mar
Nice video you answered pretty much every question someone could ask about the bike. Not only are there a lot more L2 chargers than DCFC but there are also a lot of free ones in my area and the L2 is way cheaper to use here too.
Yup!
Excellent review 👍 Getting the Mulholland in a few weeks
Sweet! What color?
@@AdventuresonZero red. How hard was it to get it custom painted?
@@NemoEUC I dunno, never painted mine before
@@AdventuresonZeroI didn't know it came like that. I thought you painted it.
@@NemoEUC launch edition
great review Ben!
Thanks!
Another great one. Love it! 🙂👍🏼
Thank you! Cheers!
Good job man !! Keep it up
Thanks, will do!
Awesome review!
😘😘
I think i saw a little George Washington National Forest. @7:18. Love the content..
Good eye!
About AC availability, most of AC chargers are used to get a little free or small cost charge, especially by hybrids car with small batteries with only AC ports (because they wouldn't benefit much by higher speed).
Installation cost is very small, and basically every decent size shop can afford to install one, especially to attract customers (which is also why you see lower charging rates sometimes). The same cannot be said for DC chargers, as cars expect to charge between 150 kW to 300 kW, which require liquid cooled cables, of course delivery of such power to the charging point (which cannot be just attached to the already existing shop power line), and big cooled transformers that require a lot of space, it's big and it doesn't reside on the cabin where the cable comes from, it's the other bigger structure.
You also don't need that many, because AC chargers can deliver up to 22 kW and it would take 6 hours to completely charge it. Meanwhile you can charge the same car in half an hour. You can serve 12 times more vehicle in the same time. So you need 12 times less chargers to satisfy the needs.
Beside that, usually it's convenient to have many DC charging points attached to the same infrastructure, because of how they are connected. As you show, 10 000 locations, averaging 4 charging point each. Meanwhile AC has 60 000 locations, averaging 2,4 charging point each, because usually you have 1, 2, or 4 points in the parking lot where you can charge while you buy groceries or whatever, a low cost for the owner, while DC require a bigger investment and commitment, and managed by the companies.
You also don't need many charging locations, because you need much less stops, and shorter too, to satisfy the charging needs. According to your data, on average the US can serve more than twice DC users than AC in the same period of time.
In reality Zero and Livewire going only AC aren't increasing your options as you can always charge Livewire (One) and Energica at AC points too, but in reality they are cutting you off from 22% of the total charging points, and forcing longer stops. This argument would make sense only if there are some route that would literally impossibile to reach in some cases, or the AC limit at 3 kW for those bikes would make them longer.
Which is not the case, especially compared to all other routes that are enabled with DC.
I like exploring places I’ve not been before, most of those places do not have DCFC, but have 240v sources. The bike suits my riding perfectly
Nice video. Should be Livewire material!
Thanks!
Thanks!
2nd super thanks!! Thanks!
Great review! With my budget, I'll likely go with a used zero, but would love to pickup a livewire in a few years.
There are a few people selling their Del Mar (they want a mulholland) in the Facebook groups for much less than paying new
@@AdventuresonZero I might have to check that out, thanks for the tip. The Del Mar would definitely be my choice, love the styling and riding position of it. Plus level 2 charging is way more common where I'm at (also near Virginia).
@@spartankittygames Diego Cardenas is selling his (in CA) and one more. Not sure if any are on the east coast
The charging difference between home and commercial charging is likely related to 240v single phase (home) vs 208 volt three phase (commercial). Given the same max amperage, the commercial circuit will charge with less power. Seems unlikely to be a communication issue, J1772 signaling is very basic and is well sorted.
So RV campgrounds are single phase as well?
wow what a great video
Thanks!
Very interesting, both about the Del Mar and how the USA is way behind the UK in DC fast charging stations. To help us understand your statements comparing the Livewire Del Mar to other bikes, which electric motorcycles have you ridden? (I've just owned a Zero DSR and an Energica Experia and done test rides on an Energica Esse Esse and Zero SR/S and DSR/X.)
Yeah the infrastructure is very different here in the US. Does the general public push back on EVs there? I’ve ridden 2017 Zero DSR (owned), 2021 Zero DSR, 2022 Zero SR/F and /S, 2019 (?) Energica Eva Ribelle (Steven Day’s Bike), all LiveWire One, S2 Del Mar, S2 Mulholland, and some custom made bikes made from a hodge podge of components
I'd love to hear about your experiences on doing long trips in the UK and Europe on the Energicas and Zeros. Is it easy to find working DCFC stations and are they filled up with EV cars most of the time?
@@fallinginthed33p I only rode the energica once, but I've done lots of long trips on the DSR - put about 13k miles on the bike in 9 months. Pulling up to a DC charger and there being a queue happens about 5% of the time and usually just during the week.
You say about reduced maintenance costs. Can someone give some examples on the cost of service they incurred? Also, I don't know if the b-roll of service book was showing the actual Livewire book, but if yes, then the interval is shorter vs ICE bikes which seems strange... Thanks in advance!
Most of the low maintenance costs are endemic to pretty much all electric motorcycles - no chain maintenance on belt drive powertrains, no engine oil to monitor/replace (although some have gear oil to replace every 20k miles), no clutch pad to wear out, brake pads could be replaced less (depending on how you use regen braking), no heat to burn yourself or other components on. Most of the maintenance checks in the owners manual, which is what I showed in the video, are simple enough to do at home and mostly consist of checking torque values and inspecting parts visually. There might be a software update for specific components that can only be done with a digital technician II, however these are far and few between. The servicing intervals are identical to all Harley-Davidson service intervals (1k, 5k, 10k, etc), so not sure what you mean. But again, because there are very little moving components, most of that servicing can be completed by the operator. Interval serving costs are going to vary dealer to dealer, so I can't give you a hard nosed answer on costs.
I agree they need aftermarket handlebar risers, but other then that the bike is great
Yep!
It looks like the perfect commuter bike if you're doing less than 100 miles a day. Electricity is a lot cheaper than gas, EV maintenance sure beats doing valve checks or Desmo servicing, and you can charge at the office.
That being said, I still knock out a couple hundred miles on long weekend rides, so the 70 mile range isn't enough especially when there are few chargers out in the countryside. A 150-mile S3 maybe?
Depending on where you're at, RV campgrounds are perfect charging stops if you have the right EVSE, but that requires calling ahead to make sure it's ok to stop and charge there - some are fine with it and others will charge you. The S3 will be smaller than the Del Mar, kind of like a surron bike. The S4 is supposed to be the bigger, cruiser style bike
Hey Ben maybe you can advise. My wife has the del mar i have the one. She just hit 1000 miles the other day.She got home with it yesterday and plugged it in. Today i went to take it to Harley for its service and it would not come on. Display etc. I checked the 12 v and actually made sure it was charged and put back in. Still nothing. This is the second time this has happened. Is it becuse of update ?What's your thoughts. Thanks much
12v controls the screen, lights, etc. did you plug it up to a lithium 12v trickle charger?
@@AdventuresonZero just a regular one. It flashed red for a while then when green very quickly.It was not a lithium one tho
@@greenrush4313 you need to use a lithium one. Most chargers, green means 70% charge or above, so you'll want to leave it on for 6-8 hours
yall got any more of them del mar videos?
😆 working on it
Made in India ultraviolet F77 can provide more range and 60% less cost with excellent quality 😊
And if it needs repairs, where in the US would it be serviced??
@@AdventuresonZero soon they will start there showroom in US mostly in 2025 till then u can wait or u can take it and EVs hardly has any issues so nothing to worry
No I want one, but not for sale in aus :(
lol. Hopefully they get it to ya'll!
For 16k no level 3 charging is criminal I'd just get the land moto and swap batteries
It’s really area dependent. There are far more level 2 charger where I am than level 3
I really want a Mulholland but I don't want to get a motorcycle license... I have several ebikes that are just as fast but have pedals. Don't understand why I need to learn about gears or clutch just to operate an electric motorcycle
It's more than just shifting and gears, you're expected to know how to operate a bike when you go to get licensed - it's more about riding safe on roads
Most MSF courses allow you to take the course on your own bike. So if you really want one, you can buy it and use it for the course and have your license at the end.
biggest thing is weight, first thing I noticed on a motorcycle is how much heavier it is even then suped up ebikes. I agree that I wish more motorcycle courses would start including electrics as an option.
70 miles range at 55mph = 15k plus?
I get closer to 80-90 miles at those speeds
Pretty nice
I take it you like the bike then?🤣🤣
It’s absolutely terrible 😉 😂
8:11 this is a fallacy. You are assuming that the person who critiques the charging speed is the "average" motorcycle. And what "per motorcycle" means I don't understand: someone who owns two motorcycle is basically reducing the average? Because one person can't drive two vehicles at the same time, so they would count as two lower distance.
The average should only consider the riders, not motorcycles, and it should remove the very low end.
Just yesterday I came back from a 1470 km trip on my Eva in two days. It means that in two days I've covered about half of the average American. And it would have been literally impossible to do that on AC charging alone, even with the dwindling charging rate because of lacking of battery cooling.
Leaving alone that last data from 2022 shows 2 484 miles per motorcycle (+24% over 2021), that table only considers highway, and motorcycles usually avoid highways especially for recreational use.
So that's a wrong source to get this kind of statistic as it excludes a big chunk of data.
For 2022 it records 283 million vehicles registered in the entire country, but only 235 million driver licenses (according to table DL-201). So the average is literally done by diving 3 196 191 million miles by 283 million vehicles, reaching an average of 11 278 miles per vehicle.
If we use the more sensible number of total licenses we get an average of 13 600 miles per person which is a figure 20% higher (in reality we should exclude the people who have not driven on the highway that year, but I doubt anyone have that statistic).
What really skews this data, is the people who have a motorcycle and ride 0 miles.
Looking for other data, I've found an article from RevZilla in February 1st 2022 "How many rides do you ride a year?" that in 20218 half of the survey respondent rode less than 1 000 miles.
"But the government also admits that its statistics on vehicle miles traveled are not as reliable for motorcycles as they are for cars, trucks, buses and other vehicles. For example, the estimated total vehicle miles traveled by motorcycles were reported as between nine billion and 12 billion for many years through 2006, but jumped by about 50 percent in 2007 and have remained around 20 billion since. People didn't suddenly start riding 50 percent more in 2007, so it's clear that those numbers are just estimates based on formulas that changed."
And especially this on a survey in 2021: "On the other end, 13 percent of the respondents in the Voom survey said they never rode their motorcycle at all."
Yes, so we can safely take 10% off of the total of motorcycles (9,8 millions in 2021) and we get a +20% of miles travelled just from that, and probably even more.
Beside, even with that in mind, the average is not that important, what is important for motorcycle is the long trip. If you can easily cover your daily routine is good, but if it can't cover your longer trips with comfort and you can only afford one bike, than it's a even bigger no.
And you are a good example of an exception, having 3 bikes is not something that everyone can afford, especially when 2 are basically the same.
One last thing: cars, buses, trucks... they are all used all around the year regardless of the climate, while motorcycle are usually not used in winter or even spring and autumn in the northern parts of the country. That would definitely change the average for the south, and as stated before the perception if used that to estimate longer travels (still a wrong take without sufficient data).
Saying the lack of DCFC hasn't affected my enjoyment of the bike is a fallacy?
@@AdventuresonZero No, the whole argument in response after that. You can't say that people need to be more realistic on how much they ride looking at averages, especially when the data is wrong. A single person is not the average.
You'll have to take that argument up with the US Department of Transportation
@@AdventuresonZero Nah, the data is fine, just not that useful and especially wrong how you used it (and according to your own data, you average 10 000 miles on two vehicles, instead of 20 000 miles on one person, highlighting how bad that data is for this specific use case). You can't use an average (even including local roads) to determine how much people ride, especially responding to specific comments without knowing their needs, and dismiss their needs.
Or I bring my own 1100 km in 11 hours, and what are you gonna do, dismiss that too because it's not the average trip?
Yourself mention that group rides and long rides are an issue, so you can't ignore that on one part of the discourse and say that Del Mar is not for you when you *always* exceed those limits. Even once is too much, so if you once ride in large group, or once you take longer trips with someone else it becomes an issue. Well, maybe once is doable, but more starts to be a problem :)