The bizarre thumb-trigger Martini-Henry, with firearms expert Jonathan Ferguson
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- The Martini-Henry is one of Britain's best recognised and well-known historical firearms. This week's episode features a super-rare variant.
Searching for a way of improving the breechloader, trials were laid out for a thumb-trigger configuration, popular with target shooters and hunters at the time. An order for 40 of these 'Watkin-Patent' Martini-Henrys were produced but the idea ultimately went nowhere, as Jonathan Ferguson explains.
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Zulu is such a great film, the Martini-Henry plays a great part in it. I've never noticed the inaccurate rifles. Congratulations to Michael Caine on finally retiring!
I love that movie. See that rifle be put to work was amazing.
And it has the line he should have said - "stop thorwing, those bloody spears, at me".
It's on Tu bi for free
According to Geoffrey Boothroyd .450 ammunition was still available in the Eley Kynoch sales brochure as recently as 1968. In 1994 I worked in Oman and quite a lot of the older Bedu still carried Martinis. Most of the forend woodwork was removed to save weight and often very intricate silverwork adorned the barrel and stock. Many of these rifles were still in working order but I don't think I would take one to the Proof House. However I was surprised to see some of the original foil cartridge cases looking a bit creased but unused. How old would those be? The solid brass case ammunition was still fairly available and I did see empty case s with the primer knocked out being filled with tobacco and used as a smoking pipe.
I could imagine that the thumb trigger would have use in cold weather situations. Wearing mittens or gloves and operating a trigger in a trigger guard is cumbersome. This was a time of great exploration, including the arctic and antarctic regions.
Thumb triggers have some advantages.
With a thumb trigger, you are pushing down and forward, this tends to keep the bore more in align the forces are in opposition to recoil.
Many shooters, and this was even more true with soliders who didn't grow up with firearms, have a tendency to jerk the trigger and move the bore off target.
I have shot thumb triggers as well, their biggest problem is they fight against muscle memory. It just feels weird, but they are accurate.
Also, I would think there would be fewer accidental discharges, as people have a tendency to grip with all their fingers and thus pull a finger trigger
Great job Johnathan. Martini actions were in use in the second ww with Australian,Volunteer Defense Corps (Dad's army) being issued martini cadet (.310) as a stop gap post the bombing of Darwin in 42. They designed a bayonet for it and produced a copper nickel jacketed bullet to comply with the hauge convention... I think.. anyway the V.D.F were pretty pissed of at being issued essentially a 9mm powered ish, single shot rifle. Australia did have 110 000 cadet rifles at the time. So it's better than throwing stones.
Thanks Jonathan and team.
It was really interesting to see that thumb triggers were tried out on rifles in Victorian times. I do remember reading once that Winchester manufactured a thumb trigger rifle in .22LR for a time.
Also, as I'm just back from my visit to the Vickers MG Collection and Research Association, I will observe that thumb triggers became a standard configuration for Vickers machine guns and similar weapons.
I was surprised how easy it was to arrange a visit from their website and I would certainly recommend it for anyone who is interested in 20th century British military small arms.
Forgotten weapons has a video on the thumb trigger 22
@@samholdsworth420and about a modern 5.56 one as well
@@Cheshire9k nice
I still occasionally use my Winchester Thumb Trigger model .22 cal. rifle inherited from my Grandfather, and find it a very pleasant and accurate gun to use !
PS I also have a Martini Enfield Carbine in .303 cal, with Turkish markings and fore end cap, refurbished by the Citadel Arsenal in Cairo, and allegedly brought back to Australia by a Digger from Gallipoli ! It would be interesting to know whether it was used against British & Commonwealth forces ? Ian from Forgotten Weapons did a video on a similar firearm.
Outstanding video Jonathan. Informative and also very amusing. Thanks 👍
Thanks Michael. Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you!
A very interesting variant on the rifle explained in detail.
Glad you mentioned the other channels who have deep dive and use including drills of the famous firearm. The brass foil cartridge is a little odd to modern eyes, but it was really quite early on in the whole metal cartridge concept so understandable in context.
Jonathan I wonder if the thumb trigger was a reaction to the army trying to eliminate poor drills whereby soldiers were possibly not using the thumb rest and suffering injuries and it then makes sense to force the issue by making the thumb rest become the trigger and eliminating the urge to wrap the thumb around the stock?
It's possible - hopefully I can find time to have a dig into it.
6:15 By the way, I would very much like to see a video on those Scottish flintlocks, they've always puzzled me as to why are they made that way and how were they silvered.
17:00 Was it though? From what I've got from the C&Rcenal series, its service life was rather troubled, and that is besides the fact that it came out basically at the same time as bolt action rifles like Vetterli, Mauser, Berdan and Gras, and so was basically outdated by the time it reached troops.
17:33 Well, it was kind of large and slow even at that time, when rifle bullets were typically about 20-25 g and developed speeds closer to 430-450 m/s.
6:15 One will be forthcoming - at least. Possibly for Up in Arms rather than What is This Weapon though.
17:00 Opinions vary. Neil's book is more positive than Othais' video. Both are factually correct but Neil de-emphasises the 'troubles'. As to being outdated - it first entered service in 1872, mass issue in 1874. It's ergonomically superior to any single-shot bolt-action (down, insert cartridge, up, fire is clearly better than up, back, insert cartridge, forward, down) and the ballistics are similar. It's another decade before the Mauser 71 gets a magazine, at which point you no longer want a Martini. The Gras gets one six years later but not everyone gets it right away. A six-ten year FRONT LINE service life vs the weapon of your near-peers is respectable given the pace of change at the time.
17:33 1300 fps = 396 m/s. Not meaningfully slower than any of the weapons you cite. A lighter bullet going SLIGHTLY faster than that is not, overall, ballistically superior - yes, it will have a slightly flatter trajectory at distance, but it's not going to make any difference in terminal ballistics. The only wounding mechanism that matters in this era is tissue crush - for which you want a larger diameter bullet (not that .45 is much bigger than .43 for the Mauser 71.
@@jonathanferguson1211 Well, thanks for good news! I'll be waiting eagerly. 😊
Opinions do indeed vary, but is inserting cartridge in the Martini action really as easy as throwing a round on a feed tray in a bolt-action rifle? And in cold climates operating bolt action in gloves seems to be much easier. At least some foreign observers saw it as unergonomic, and there's little surprise that the only people who adopted Martinis at a large scale besides the Brits were those lacking their own manufacturing capacity. Failures to extract (with only 6 mm or so of extractor travel it's not that surprising) & misfires as mentioned in, say, the French & American trials reports on Martini also don't strike me as particularly user-friendly features. And I wouldn't even mention the fact the Vetterli had a magazine all the way back in 1869, so magazine options for bolt-action rifles were available even before the MH adoption.
As for the muzzle velocity - well, it looks like it *was* actually seen as a downside at the time: not only did the British go to .402 eventually, but likewise both Austro-Hungarians and Dutch went for ballistically superior cartridges all the way back in the second half of the 1870s (not to mention the Ottoman modifications for their cartridge along the same lines). Also, don't forget that lighter bullets give you less recoil impulse, which, I would think, could partially mitigate the kick in the nose one gets when gripping the MH conventionally, as you've mentioned in the video.
Is inserting a cartridge and closing the breech quicker on a Martini than placing a round in the feedway, closing and locking the bolt? Yes, it absolutely is. The bolt gun has the edge on chambering under heavy use due to fouling, but that would only (roughly) equalise the inherent advantage that the Martini has. Above user or maybe platoon level, there really isn't much to choose between them. The bolt guns became the better choice of course, but we didn't necessarily know that in 1871.@@F1ghteR41
I love MH’s. I have 5, all shooters. It took me a while to get all my reloading gear, but it was worth it. My best is a Canadian marked Mark III. I also have a MH sporter In .303 and a 12 g Greener!
Great as always. Sadly, the lighting was unsatisfactory when JF was showing the various firing mechanisms and difficult to make out.
Yes, apologies :(
At first I thought it was a custom job for someone that didn't have a pointing finger. Very suprised to learn this was in trial for general use.
The C&Rsenal series on the Martini-Henry is great. I wish they had the chance to cover the civilian market more, though. I have a civilian purchased variant and know nothing about it!
thank you for showing off these beautiful weapons
Glad you brought up Zulu, I have watched both many times and anytime I see a Martini-Henry video it makes me want to watch them. Also the man who would be King. But Zulu is gold!
I like the fact that Jonathan assumes that his audience has a certain amount of familiarity with the items being discussed. Not dumbed down at all. Hooray for intelligent Internet!
Great video thank you as always Jonathan
6:52 I expected you to produce a snap cap in orange for some reason.
Cool, full stop.
We thought so too.
I have seen more modern thumb trigger rifles before. This has to predate any of those by at least 50 years. Given that I have heard seasoned shooters complain about this setup due to it simply being different from what they are used to. I have always wondered what new shooters who have grown up playing video games using the thumb as the primary means of playing them (when using gamepads) would say if given this style as their first rifle.
addendum: I can definitely see one reason why hunters would like these, given that gloves can make operating a conventional trigger anything from annoying to impossible. (also this would certainly be easier to fire with cold stiff fingers since the thumb just holds up better than the fingers)
pretty much all fps games from the past 20-25 years actually use the index finger for firing weapons, the thumb is used for aiming using the sticks. So most people who have grown up playing video games probably already know how they are supposed to use controls on fire-arms
@@bushyowie6679 You misunderstand. I am talking about how much the thumb is utilized in general with gamepads. It means that people who have used them a lot have a good sense of feel with that digit, have likely developed better motor skills with that digit and be more used to using the thumb for this or that.
Compare/contrast using a gamepad vs other activity where the other digits are more equal in their use or the forefinger is preferred.
It is NOT about what people are used to with guns. It is ALL about what people are used to in general, applied to an activity they have yet to partake in (as per my original post, I was talking purely about people who have no experience with an actual rifle).
Think of it as similar to how people who wear gloves all the time tend to be better at their fine motor skills with a gloved hand than people who never or barely ever wear gloves (put on some thin gloves and try typing on a keyboard and see how different it feels).
@@whyjnot420It’s easier and less straining for me to tap my thumb than pull my index finger. And that’s coming from someone who played video games my whole life including console shooters than use the triggers.
Texts are often written with thumbs.
@@myparceltape1169 Yeah, but that is still pretty new. In terms of it being a common everyday type of thing, you are really only talking 10 years or so. Maybe 15. (of course things like PDAs were around long before that, things of that nature were not all that common.) While with gamepads you are talking around the last 50 years. Hence why I used video games for the example.
One of the more specific things that I have wondered about (in this context) has to do with different age groups. I.e. do people with 10 years experience differ from those with 40 years of experience?
Food for thought: The core of my question is about people who have used their thumbs for extremely common and precise input. Video game controllers are just the best example I can think of, which includes a wide variety of people from all over and for a fairly long period of time. Still, the number of examples I could think of was extremely limited in comparison to other things.
More food for thought: Would people who use actual PCs (and thus use a proper keyboard and mouse) have a different opinion than people who predominantly use smartphones? Would users of gaming mice have a different opinion than those who use a traditional mouse?
👍Very interesting video!
Considering Friedrich von Martini's citizenship:
Friedrich von Martini was the son of an austrian doctor (from a noble family, hence the "von") he was born in what is today bulgaria or romania as his family lived there.
He studied in Vienna and KArlsruhe (germany) then worked in Karlsruhe and Winterthur (switzerland).
Then did his military service in the imperial austrian army in a campaign against italy.
After that he went back to switzerland to work and 2 years later became partial owner of the compan he worked for. Married and stayed there until his death.
He founded what later became a motorized vehicle manufacturer, he had around 17 patents for very different things (like the action of the rifle but also a paper folding apparatus that enabled a swiss bookbinder company to start business and be around until 2014, and an apparatus for embroidery machines),
he even became part of the local municipal government for some time. (and the swiss didn't do that if they weren't ok with you being swiss enough ;-) )
So is he swiss? yes, but i would also not fault anybody who calls him austrian of origin.
This was excellent. Thank you.
Arctic trigger for shooting while wearing mittens? Wast this built for one of the North Pole expeditions?
They say you know you have upset the boss when they move your stuff to the boiler room in the basement.
So what did J' Do to get moved to the Target Range ?
I think he's just hiding from the museum shop's sales team, who need him to autograph several hundred more copies of his book on British bullpup rifles.
The 24th may not have been the South Wales Borderers yet, but the names on the rolls have an awful lot of Jones in them & a lot of the men at Roark's Drift (34) were Welsh. The officers wouldn't have worn their full-dress uniforms in the field as shown - blue patrols or scarlet "India-pattern" frocks were worn - that plus the weapons issues (officer's handguns were still private purchase, so I suspect it would have been a mix of Tranters, Adams etc.) make for an imperfect but super fun film. The Zulu nation's involvement was also super important.
We had a couple of Martini Henrys in the armoury at school. Fun to shoot, but the ammo was getting a bit behind it's well by date.
I beg your pardon "armoury at school"?
You wrote that correct so I can't even assume you are American, what bloody school on Earth has an armoury?
@@NovaAgesome English private schools in the seventies and Eighties had armouries for there cadet forces. Not sure if it still goes on.
A friend I had at university went to a school in Liverpool (in the 80's) where they had hands-on tuition on stripping guns. They were expected to able to do it all themselves.@@Thetasigmaalpha
@@NovaAge We had a range & armoury at school, but only .22 rifles. The front of the building was decorated with the prow of a ship.
@@Thetasigmaalpha But to have a full-scale rifle range (neither .450 nor .303 aren't exactly parlour cartridges, y'know) it has to have a lot of land, so I'd hazard a guess that it's probably one of the fancy _public schools,_ or else I'm completely at a loss for suitable explanations.
There is a very interesting video from Iraq Verteran 8888 where they fire a Martini Henry at 600yds to show its accuracy capabilities at range.
16:05
Fun fact: during the Siege of Ladysmith Christmas happened! And the Boer army sent over in a carrier shell containing a Christmas pudding, two union jacks (flags), and a note saying "compliments of the season". Unfortunately the fighting still continued until February.
How about a video on the _last_ Martini?
I think that would be BSA, mine was made in 1925.
BSA were still making Martini action .22 rimfire target rifles in the 1970s. I'm not sure exactly when they stopped.
In 1974, the NSRA shop at Bisley could sell you a brand new MkIV for £111.60 for ISU Standard Rifle competitions or a MkV heavy barrel for £123.86. The latter was designed for "English Match" prone rifle competitions.
I think Greener were still making their Martini action shotguns at that time, but I'm not a shotgun expert.
That 1874 you show in the middle of the video? EXQUISITE! If the Royal Armory never wants that, why; you just pop it in the post and send it my way! It's gorgeous!
Wouldn't it be interesting if that finger rest, or maybe it can be called a 'false trigger' were used as a spring loaded safety. Just pull it back 2 mm to make the thumb trigger 'live'. Not really sure it there is any value there, and it's mooted by the rifle not going into production. But it's a thought.
Given that safeties were eliminated on Martini-Henries during production, I wouldn't expect them to express such concern again.
This reminds me of the Type-1 and some of the Type-2 Phasers of Star Trek.
I am disappointed that I didn't think of that :D
I find it funny when he goes to show something and the camera cuts away to a totally different view 😂
Great video, as always Jonathon!
It's a truly beautiful rifle,thanks Jonathan for showing it to us.👍👍👍
Hey Jonathan,
Thanks for another very enjoyable video. I thought you might like to know, the 'oe' in boer is pronounced (in Dutch at least, where the word originates) very much like "ooh"
Although it's two letters, it's a single sound, so it doesn't sound much like "bower"
Cheers!
Thank you - I have, in the past, got it right. Not here though :) Slightly embarrassing as I work with a South African.
Caught the video in 360p still Hahaha!! It's like being back in 1884
What a nightmare to be stuck in 😱
@@RoyalArmouriesbut better than being stuck in 1984?
Those are handsome firearms. The beautiful wood stock and blued receiver and barrel are really attractive.
BritishMuzzleLoaders has some excellent content on the Martini-Henry
thank you
In December of 1883 the Royal Canadian Regiment and the Royal Canadian Dragoons were established. Could this be some attempt at a cold weather/glove adaptation for those units?
Hmm... Just possibly. I'd love to get time to hunt for some more on this, but if the Pattern Room only found that little info, I'm not sure it survives.
@@jonathanferguson1211 The RCR has a dedicated museum in London, Ontario, perhaps some old correspondence survived in their archives. Maybe such a project ist mentioned there somewhere, but because they don't have the trial guns, it's assumed to have gone nowhere.
I was very fortunate to inherit my great grandads WW1 campaign medals along with a DCM from actions in France, a .303 Martini also showed up Live fire !.
Obviously had to have it deactivated lol
But he served with the 1st Dragoons signallers 1906-1907 and the story was that the Martini rifle was in service within their regiment ?
Which of these is the best in Your opinion: the Martini-Henry, the Mauser M1871, the Gras M1874, the Werndl-Holub M1867 or the Berdan M1870?
I am biased but I think until those other arms get a magazine, the Martini beats them all :) Of course it didn't lend itself to a magazine upgrade...
What's the musket with the huge sword bayonet over your right shoulder?!?!
I've seen other examples of thumb triggers (if my memory is correct, Forgotten Weapons had a video about them). Never had the opportunity to handle one, but I've 'experimented' with the concept on a conventional rifle by just pressing my thumb on an imaginary trigger. I can see it being an easier motion to use for a clean trigger pull. That being said, I can't see it being practical outside of a target rifle. I can't think of a practical way to guard a thumb trigger, and it seems like an unintentional discharge waiting to happen.
What if you turned the conventional trigger into a grip safety?
@autoteleology that actually makes a lot of sense. I wonder if you could get the mechanism to work to the point where you could use a thumb or standard trigger interchangeably as long as they're pressed in tandem.
The original action is a 'Peabody', patented in the US, and it used an external hammer. IIRC the first iteration had the breach lever on top and part of the tilting block but this soon changed to the more familiar under lever. A few US State Militias bought Peabody rifles for their troops. Martini's part was to convert the Peabody to use coil springs instead of flat springs with the external hammer. There is also a Farquharson alteration to add on there too - Farquharson developed an improved extractor which had an oval hole for the pivot pin, effectively giving the action a two stage extractor with better leverage using the front of the action/breach as a fulcrum (not the pin) to loosen the cartridge and then the extractor moved on the pin and threw the casing clear. If you string all the names together you could have a G&S patter song from a musical.
Little confused about the cutout model that you can put the empty shell in; to actually fire, did you have to always depress that additional button aside the thumb trigger to get it to fire? Haven't ever seen a trigger require an additional manual safety that wasn't just a toggle in some way, it's sort of reminiscent of the sort of purpose that a trigger safety on like, a standard glock, would have. Or like the grip safeties on other handguns, like 1911's.
I believe you do have to press the safety to fire. It's similar to the Vickers MG, where you have to raise the safety with your middle fingers and press the trigger with your thumbs.
Ok that's rad.
Great vid! Love the channel.
For a second there, i thought my earpiece had an audio issue. Thanks comments section for being useful for once!
Seems like UA-cam got it processed now. We can't help that we're all eager to hear Jonathan's voice on a Wednesday afternoon. *spoilt*
I love this channel!
No audio here either
The video will have finished processing by now, if you want to give it a refresh.
I'd be interested to know if there's much documentation about how this handles vs a conventional trigger and if working around muscle memory would be an issue for an experienced shooter. It seems alien to me and thats as someone with no firearms experience.
It's VERY odd and not at all natural. You'd be futzing with that not-trigger stump under stress, I'm sure - like stomping on the floor of an automatic transmission car searching for the clutch when you've only ever driven manual!
@@jonathanferguson1211 Or worse, your foot finding the brake. I have to fold my left leg under the seat so it doesn't cause mischief.
@jonathanferguson1211 the thought of looking down in confusion because you've forgotten where your trigger has gone mid fire-fight and that's the last thing you ever see is giving me cold sweats! But I'm assuming it never made it that far?
Guys, you missing audio
The video was processing still through UA-cam but looks like it has fully loaded now. *phew*
That's the Martini-Henry Spear, 6.8×51mm.
Seems like a good way for the muscle memory of pulling triggers to get you killed lol
Obviously, these were made for a group of Klingons who crashed on earth. Their disruptors all used thumb triggers and the Klingons could not get the hang of human finger triggers. 🤣
Jonathan saves his snack supply from Othias and Mae, just! 😉😁.
I'd have had to do a re-take :D
Another reason not to accept thumb triggers is the problem of what to do if the thumb is injured? With a finger trigger an injured index finger can be replaced with the middle or ring finger.
But great for Archers who have had fingers lopped off . Lol.
😂 you ruined Zulu for me. Great video as usual.
Still worth a watch. It was kind of made with an audience expecting a certain outcome in mind.
How would you think it go trying to use this trigger style on a horse?
TBH, I would love a modern rifle made to fire like this, it would be so much easier and smoother for a very steady long range shot....I wonder if my gunsmithing skills could replicate this on one of my muzzle loaders?....
I have it on good authority, that you have two ( of the 6 ever made) .303 Mark V Martini-Henrys.
please crytek add this as the martini-henry spitfire
interesting '' Great Video 💯💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Ah! The give them to the "chocolate box" regiments, first.
360P with audio
The video was processing but it looks like you can watch in 1080p now.
Sounds like a custom gun for Ricky Berwick.
So many times gun designers fails to recognize that there are times when a shooter must operate their gun with their weak or opposite hand. That is why guns like this one fail to be accepted.
A properly designed firearm should always be ambidextrous!
Always nice to see Jonathon shooting, so fashionable and badass :) The wife always comments how hot he is, I tell her that I believe he prefers the company of gentlemen, a wrestling match ensues. It's normal, it's what normal people do.
As long as you consistently get to the point of the wrestling match I believe you’ve accomplished your objective.
Is anyone else's audio missing?
There's no subtitles either.
I don’t have the issue
@@coolhandluke7772they fixed it
It's likely because the video was still processing, but if you give it a refresh it should have finished by now.
@RoyalArmouries does that include the subtitles?
That round looks like a dog chewed on it 😅
Silent.
You must have tuned in while it was processing but it should be loaded now. Points for being eager. ✔
Yes, turn it off and on problem solved
Too far - you went from a whole tub of “boots own” hair gel to a lightly feathered hair spray look.
Great content as ever. Cheers!
Great video thanks
Just why? Seems idiotic.