What Is The Civil Service? And Why Starmer Needs To Collaborate To Bring Stability
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- Опубліковано 7 сер 2024
- What are Prime Ministers really like behind closed doors? How do you become Britain’s most powerful civil servant? Are special advisors a force for good or ill?
On today’s episode of Leading, Rory and Alastair are joined by Gus O’Donnell, the former Cabinet Secretary and Head of Civil Service, to answer all these questions and more.
00:00 Intro
01:18 David Cameron’s first day in office
05:05 Gus O’Donnell’s advice for a new prime minister
07:08 Collaboration between ministers & civil servants
12:42 The problems of chopping and changing ministers
14:46 Bonds with Prime Ministers you worked for
19:07 How does the permanent civil service work?
24:35 Rory’s experience with civil servants
29:48 Difference between impartiality and independence
31:11 The relationship between civil servants and special advisors
42:28 The role of the press in our political debate
44:29 Measuring success by population wellbeing not GDP
47:45 Are reform and radical performance possible together?
52:23 Debrief
56:51 Outro
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I suspect the reason that Rory had a much worse experience with the civil service than Alastair did was that Alastair was known to have the ear of the prime minister and Rory wasn't.
It's a personality thing too. No one likes listening to a self-appointed expert-on-everything every day at work. It's tiring. You just want them to stop talking and leave you alone.
P@@simac3880
@@simac3880 It strikes me you said the same thing in more than one comment. Do you get off on hating a public person?
Also there's no such thing as a not self-appointed expert. You do the time, get the work in, and are sure you are more informed than those around you, and you are an expert. Nobody appointed you into that position. Conversely nobody likes to have a conversation with someone, especially those nominally under them in a workplace, and be patronized or ignored. It's only aggravated when you, as the recipient of the treatment, know for a fact they probably don't know more than you do, and their input is deficient. It's extremely unprofessional, and anyone in any job in the private sector, in similar circumstances, would be reviewed or fired.
This entire line, and the dodgy answers, reeks of a managerial class who think they're more important than they are. I would be more concerned than people seem to be. They're not elected, and if it is true what Stewart says, and it happens often, then they're also obstructing the people who were elected to do a job. By you.
@@simac3880 But there's no denying that Rory is extremely familiar with Afghanistan. He worked there for years, and walked across the country. His civil servants should have listened to him when he told them it was a bad idea to give so much money to their police, because he knew what they were like as an institution and the civil servants did not.
Don’t forget that Rory’s government absolutely gutted the civil service and public sector generally. London is an expensive city and civil servants need heating and eating as much as anyone else.
I love that Rory helps us, the ignorant out by getting out the basics. It really does make these sessions such an informative experience and q real eye and ear opener. Thqnk you - great stuff!
As always, thank you Rory for explaining the UK situation for international listeners.
I can see why they say “Yes minister” was a documentary 😅
Surprised he mentioned the People's Survey as if it is something to be proud of.
As a current Civil Servant i have filled out many and not seen any tangible changes afterwards. The results are published, promises are made, the same promises are broken and then it's time for the next survey. rinse, repeat.
They waited for the last one to close before announcing the forced 60% in office mandate which was pretty slimey. My department still had only about 30% of staff saying they were happy, likely mostly in policy and not front line.
Sounds exactly the same as every large company I've ever worked for. ;)
Fascinating interview. This stuff is why the channel is far ahead of others. Learnt so much and didn’t expect to be so interested.
Good heaven, my subconscious being kept screaming, whilst listening through the entire interview:”Sir Humphrey, modern day Sir Humphrey, modern day Sir Humphrey”.
You could even drop "modern day"...
Especially when Rory was talking about the stalling strategies and O’Donnel justified why the delays and information blackouts were other members of the government’s fault rather than the civil servants.
My wife was a senior civil servant, based in Whitehall, from 2010 to 2023. 2016 marked a change in the treatment of civil servants, from respected colleagues, to the demonisation of them, and the people to lay the blame on when things didn't go according to plan. She had the misfortune to work directly with May, Johnson, Hunt, Truss, Raab and and Cleverly during this period, and they managed to drive her out of public service and in to the private sector. She's not alone. The brain drain didn't just happen in the Tory party; it happened in the civil service too. It is good to now have some adults back in the room, and I hope that they treat the civil service with the respect they deserve. She is far too scarred to go back to Whitehall, and why would she? She had a 400% pay rise, with a 90% reduction in her stress levels. She doesn't miss the 18 hour days and the lack of appreciation either.
Aw, bless. Lack of appreciation. My heart bleeds.
@@robert-gs4ih Thank you. I shall pass on your sincere sympathies.
Interesting comment. I thank your wife (and her long-suffering family) for their service!
People outside the inside really underestimate the complete breakdown in sensible behaviour from Britain's recently-departed governing politicians.
A modern state is a huge enterprise, the very least we should expect is competent administration.
@@MarkInOxford Please do.
@@SuezWSuezW The least we expect is civil servants to do their job and not fight against the will of the people and their elected representatives.
Rory: I want to see a Skype recording with a Yemeni.
Sir Humphrey: Yes, minister 🙂
Great interview. Please bring him on again!
Rory's bit on Yemen was straight out of Yes Minister, fantastic!!! 😂
I agree with Rory that he tried to defend the civil service. As someone who worked 3 years in the NHS. They will close ranks and defend themselves from any kind of criticism. Managers really do have a sense of pride and hate to be questioned or for juniors to make suggestions. The inflexibility of the civil service does come from a lack of accountability.
The best bit of this was the part on GDP and wellbeing. Very interesting
Rory's experience with the civil service reminded me of Yes Minister/Prime Minister. Gus’s response (somewhat vague) suggests that it is true to an extent that civil servants play along ministers believing that they that they know what is best for the country and they don’t.
100%
There might also have been something in the suggestion that they were operating under instructions from the Secretary of State. Given the motley crew of reprobates Rory worked under it seems entirely possible that they were ordering civil servants to keep him in the dark.
So true
Rory and Dominic Cummings seem to be perfectly aligned on limitations of the Civil Service😮
A real meeting of the mind
I am an Australian based 'public servant' and could relate to 95% of this podcast. I cringed a few times......Yemen issue was one. With the churn of ministers, maybe it was frustration that resulted in Rory not receiving the brief........and look what happened, new Minister within months anyway. Stability is key, and stop the churn. Give the civil servants time to build the trust and relationships with Ministers and together focus on delivering lasting outcomes and positive impacts for society. Lack of stabilisation is being experienced here as well. Shuffling of the deck chairs is the constant.
Rory's interjection about Yemen was brilliant.
Sorry minister we can't tell you for 'security reasons' 26:42 lol
This was ridiculously interesting and yet another heavyweight guest. Thanks for producing this type of content.
"Yes, Minister. Of course, Minister."
As much i love Rory it does feel like he just realised whats he was treated as an abused intern when in government. You cared, so they could get you to always carry the water.
Bad people taking advantage of decent people, unfortunately common story
Gus is spot on with wellbeing and being able to get into work. I suffer from a long term physical health condition which makes my job prospects somewhat limited. I studied accounting at university, and received a first. I am good at it, and I had the opportunity and privilege to participate in a high prized placement and was commended for my work. But this did not translate to gaining a job upon graduation. I would need very modest adjustments to my work area and hours, but I truly belief that as soon as I brought these issues up in the equality questionnaires that I was put at a disadvantage. I had strong credentials but my hard work only served to burden me with an ever increasing student debt and a feeling of hopelessness.
You would get into the civil service I believe if an accounting job opens up you should deffo go for it
DWP often employs people with physical and mental health problems. Not necessarily great work, but I have found them to be an employer willing to make accommodations.
There's a reason why "Yes, minister" has been such a poignant programme all of these years!
36:40 I work for a consultancy firm as a devops engineer. Half my projects are public sector, I can relate to some of what Gus is saying. The public sector is not competitive compensation wise with the private sector by a factor of 2 easily. The company I work for then effectively subcontract me for 2 times my own pay pocketing the difference.
Now what is being left out is most of requirements from the public-sector delivery managers miss the forest for the trees. Having a 10 + yr old stack or having a delivery date not based on how long it would take but because a press release said so. We sometimes don't get access for weeks, sometimes months and then ask why we're late.. I could go on.
Rory: privatised rail, prisons, PFI, etc isn't "evidence based policy" as it goes against the evidence, as well as the logic!
I joined the Civil Service thinking it was there to help government help citizens. Within 15 months of joining, the government changed and Mrs Thatcher was in charge (a very different ethos). At some point I realised I wasn't a great fit for the Civil Service because I was too politically minded and with a strong conscience. However while I was there I behaved neutrally and did what was asked of me. I followed the Civil Service Code. My sop to my conscience was to try and move my career in the Civil Service through jobs that I thought didn't harm anyone or or were as far from that as I could manage. That worked for me, otherwise I think I would have left.
A clear conscience? And when did you acquire this taste for luxuries?
I think Rory felt much the same way.
@@soulsphere9242 I've always had a strong conscience and sense of justice. I'm not saying it's totally clear but I have it, probably from my religious upbringing, though I'm not religious now, those aspects remain.
Great analysis Rory, you can tell the likely tension between the civil servants and the ministers. Your observations on the hint of sir Humphry is exactly what I thought😂
I take his point, though he does seem like he's trying to have it both ways a little bit--he talks (rightly) about the importance of leaving ministers in offices for two or more years because they need to learn the job, how hard it is to be a minister while still having to be in the House for votes AND being expected to do constituency surgery, etc.--in other words, they're spread too thin and not given the chance to learn about the job they're supposed to do, while complaining about...civil servants treating ministers as though they don't know about the job they're supposed to do.
not being able to leave london is a ridiculous problem, remote voting worked during covid, why is it an issue
In fairness loads of stuff happens and is discussed on the way to/just outside a meeting room. You might ask a colleague his thoughts, to clarify or explain something one on one or in private that didn't suit bringing up to everyone in a meeting.
Fascinating conversation… thank you
Really really interesting! I'd love to see more interviews with people like Gus, that are really in the nitty gritty business of government
Really interesting interview. Fascinating to hear that things I experience as a working level civil servant are echoed at the very top level!
I can't help but feel Rory's compaint about the 3-line whip and "not going to Darlington" would be very easily solved by the introduction of proxy or remote or advance voting at Westminster.
Yea but getting that past the Westminster preservation group would not happen.
The part about changing ministers rapidly is so interesting: in The Netherlands we now have a new political party (NSC) who recruited a good few of its members from outside of parliament. And some have become ministers now. A former ambassador is now minister for Foreign Affairs and a former judge is now home secretary.
Brilliant interview. Lifts the veil on a such an important part of the machine.
My late father was a technical Civil Service (Chartered Surveyor & Town Planner) and had to work at various times for Anthony Crossland and Wedgie. He had very little time for the latter just because he tended to be idealistic and therefore often not realistic in his aims. However, whatever he thought, he had to (at least try) to implement the Minister's wishes.
What happens to the outgoing PM s work? I imagine it like going on holiday amd you are rushing to get things done, or to clear your desk or explain to others what's what. Does the ex PM literally stop everything and can't do any hand over?
So good. Incredible content. More please!!
Absolutely fascinating, more of this please!
G@d I love this channel. So refreshing. Always insightful. Thank you so much. Brilliant GUS, what a legend. So so many excellent points!
Cracking discussion, possibly the most interesting one that I've heard. Great range of topics, and having someone who has been at the centre of it give their take was fascinating
Dear Rory, would you ever consider releasing an unredacted version of Politics on the Edge?
Some of us would relish hearing all of those boring bits of ministerial admin! :D
An brillant interview with gus on how civil service work in the uk. I am irish. Learned a lot from this interview.
Another excellent episode. thank you. Could I suggest that you ask Sir Alex Allan, Boris' ethics minister, for an interview? If he felt able to talk freely , I would love to know more about that brief episode.
That was so interesting and informative.
Talking about sacking civil servants. Yet it’s the senior civil servants that are the worst and they never get sacked. Promoted to a more senior role half the time.
Loved this podcast! Thank you
very insightful interview. i defintly got exasperated by Rory's point about being unable to travel to darlington due to a three line whip. surely that is ridiculous party politics getting in the way of good governance. either let the minster do their job especially when you have a good majority or let MPs vote remotely. remote voting will let the MP and especially minister work where they need to and not just be in the bubble of westminster for too long.
Woolley: In the [civil] service, CMG stands for "Call Me God". And KCMG for "Kindly Call Me God".
Hacker: What does GCMG stand for?
Woolley: "God Calls Me God".
They ALL wanted to drop Sunak in the sh1t on D day!
It's the only explanation....
Exactly - the amount of politics / agenda that goes on in the background and in the media should never be underestimated. The people supposedly in control aren’t the ones who really are in control.
Not a ‘yes minister’ quote, but immediately came to mind, “you may think that, I couldn’t possibly comment”. Would love to see a podcast on the other side of the fence and the real life Francis Urquhart type characters. Urquhart’s character was described as conniving, Machiavellian, sociopathic symbol of political corruption, I bet Rory and Alastair have a few ‘Urquhart’ type stories.
Superb interview top notch very interesting guest and topic
This is WAY fascinating!
👍👍👍
The most interesting podcast ever.
It might be something of an unpopular opinion, but I think centralising government and power in one place is far more convenient and efficient. Shipping off sectors of the civil service to the far flung corners of the country does not help those regions. They'd be better served by an efficient, centralised civil service in London carrying out reform to other aspects of the economy that affect those areas and not just arbitrarily shipping out civil servants in the name of 'distributing power'.
Or move the whole government to the middle of the country like Tanzania, Brazii or Myanmar.
43:18--That's the look of a man who hears "Major Disaster" and thinks, "Yep, that was one of mine..."
This interview is really interesting, exploring the challenges at the interface betweeen political and administrative government.
This was so interesting and informative, well done
Lord O'Donnell is brilliant, a great of his office
GO'D
💹EA RIGHT❔😋
One of the things I enjoy about watching interviews and old documentaries that deal with cabinet secretaries is seeing just how competent they are (and I don't mean that as a slight)...it's one thing to know what needs to be done and how to get it done, another to be able to manage the people who work under you, and another to be able to serve AND manage the people you work for, and they have all three skills in spades.
If you think the Civil Service works just as hard regardless of what party is in I suggest going on the Civil Service subreddit.
Brilliant by all of you.
Great interview
Really interesting to hear what goes on behind the scenes.
For Rory to conclude that 'almost certainly' the officials lied to him seems highly unfair to me. Its also interesting he did not engage with Lord O'Donnell's comments regarding situations where a SofS does not trust ministers in the department. Given Rory's public comments about his SofSs (whether rightly or wrongly) it would suggest that they did not get on any maybe just maybe they didn't trust him...
The civil servent telling the MP/Minsister when they can be in parliament is classic!
Wow.... This is brilliant.. these guys run the country don't they.. Unsung heroes/ slow horses. x
Agree, maybe Rory’s experience with the civil service says more about him.
Indeed. Petulant, self-proclaimed experts on everything tend to be pretty unpopular in the workplace.
Gus agreed with point on underpreformance, so like in all public service, push the useless out to a less important role with fancy title with more pay and less work for them. So rewarding them for being useless or not giving a dam.
I would like a discussion on how the "Yes Minister Series" gets some things right and wrong but how all the characters wanted to put the people first. How it has influenced succeeding generations.
The three line whip argument really bothers me. Change the voting system so you can vote remotely job done.
This was really good.
Fascinating!
03:16 "We have to ask him how many millions of people he wants to kill as he has to write the letters for the Nuclear Subs"
Rory "Gus, this is brilliant" 😮
It was a joke. Rory meant that the the background detail to the transfer is very useful to know
Thanks :)
Interest insight to the running of the civil service 👍
The slowness of NHS appointment letters is also to do with the perfomance of the privatised Royal Mail and I wonder what the Labour Government will do about that, as it is only likely to get worse under a Czech billionaire's ownership. Fortunately the NHS locally uses various different methods of notification of appointments including text and phone calls, usually with appointment letters to follow, but letters are sent out with more notice now and are not solely relied upon for urgent appointments. For some elderly people though letters may be their only source of information.
I worked in a huge Global Financial Organisation for 20 years - you have to work out ways to navigate organisations and personalities in order to get things done - it’s not the Civil Service - any large organisation is rife with politics, agendas, egos.
Rory just sounds wet behind the ears as he describes his struggles - Gus sees the problem in seconds.
#WRONG🎉
You do realise that Rory also has a 10 year career as.......a civil servant.
I also think you missed the point Rory was making were he was meant to be in charge and number of things were not done. And Gus was saying that the civil service does what the minister says even if they disagree.
I seen this in big private firms were a senior manager says X is happening and it all great but in practice it fare from the truth. And I was shocked by Gus response about the travel point, Rory raised I have a 3 line wipe so can't get out of London, Gus point that a party issue. Smacks of I am right and your life just has to get harder because it works for me and I hear nothing else.
So solution to have minster travelling to 3 locations constituency, Westminster and the civil outpost.
Cant get behind this guy more. As an Engineer, the majority of the contracts and frameworks we work on are provided by the Government, Environment Agency and County Councils. These guys COMPLETELY LACK the commercial ability to even review the contracts and fee proposals we put on their desks. Furthermore, we regularly poach their best people! Because the working conditions at these organisations and pay are terrible for their best workers. They dont reward performance and can get beaten by ever other company out there. The most important thing he stated around not having enough tribunals is definitely true. You can do shite at the council for 1 year before you get put on any sort of probation. Even then you just perform well for 6 months and you're scot free.
Add more dates for Brighton
Now I appreciate the accuracy of yes minister 😂
Rory, just watch (again) Yes Minister/Prime Minister !
the only way to truly restore largescale trust in politics at this point is through radical candor & shameless transparency...
which is why it’d be great if a prime minister came in & said “im going in, turning on netflix and taking a nap now. will start working for everyone who actually want to join us in making a constructive effort to find common ground and rebuild the country in about 8hrs. for those who just wanna endlessly stoke division and fester on grievances, without presenting any real solutions or putting in any genuine effort, you’re on your own”
netflix and napping > netflix and chiil
Does the Ministerial turnover on pensions partly explain all the mistakes that were made in relation to people's state pensions?
Gold
If you listen to Rory, it's like rewatching, yes, minister. And Humphrey is as charming as ever.
I spent a year working in the civil service about a decade ago. I was truly shocked at the inefficiency and crazy waste throughout the whole organisation. We had senior civil servants taking 1st class trains from the North of England for a two-day week in London, spending hundreds on hotels. The civil service needs to become more like a commercial business where money and time actually matter.
Are they supposed to stay in youth hostels?
This interview feels like an episode of Yes Minister, anyone who's seen it will know.
Where was this guy when Boris and Co were partying during COVID ??
Probably at home. The man is 71 years old so long retired.
30% of all children in the UK, "are living in relative low-income households"
This number is skewed by single parent families... becoming normalised.
Remember, the UK has a very large population of disenfranchised individuals.
The delicate fabric of UK society is being eroded away.
Tradition, religion and nationalism don't exist anymore... as forms of societal glue.
Today in the UK one in five people are disabled.
One in five adolescents have severe mental health issues.
The list of issues with 'those that are forgotten'... is becoming endless.
You're living in a meaningless society, where the educated ( societies most important group )
are obsessed with individual wealth accumulation. For those where this is not a possibility.
Their society is simply meaningless. This has nothing to do with political party's.
This has everything to do with the educated elites of the UK.
Some of this literally sounds like an episode of yes Minister!
The civil service are the smaller cogs that allow the government to operate, without them everything would halt to a complete stop.
Why is Rory "a bit worried " about Simon Case?
At the end AC was suggesting interviews with previous cabinet secretaries. Mile End Group did a series of these for example:-
ua-cam.com/video/f6_Fvo2Le-4/v-deo.htmlsi=M3Gr20QatEoh7UQt
A really enjoyable series, although I think I would tune in to watch Peter Hennessy interview my mailman.
Civil servants and people in the private sector on huge salaries and pensions, but no one will pay the junior doctors a decent salary.
Just do what the Civil Service want, don't cut staff and you'll do just fine PM 😉
Labour need to look at retention and skills growth a cross the civil service. At a minimum they should reintroduce annual incremental pay raises
Shouldn't the civil service be doing what the PM wants? Given he's elected and they're not
@@lordezio72 As we've seen with astonishing frequency under recent Conservative governments, the Prime Minister or other members of government quite often ask the civil service to do things that are flat out illlegal. So, no, it is not their job merely to do as told. They can weigh in and say whether a course of action is feasible or worth pusuing and a good minister, prime or otherwise, will consider their expertise.
@@lordezio72 Civil Service are not servants, they are experts in their fields that often far outstrip their ministers in terms of expertise and intelligence. We often see them as a faceless mass of robots enacting policy.
@@sockwithaticket The flip side of this argument is that senior civil servants can leverage their legal teams to delay/prevent policy on legal grounds for non-legal reasons. If Dominic Cummings' blog is to be believed civil servants have done this on occassion - yes this source has bias but his blog is also a rare case of publicly accessible reflection of governance systems by a senior figure.
We have been waiting…
Makes me wonder, if Rory's card had been marked from above, maybe seen as to much of a wild card ?
Where does Larry come into all this❤?
So you had in a place a structure for failure which you knew about and this Civil Servant did nothing about it, but let us lose millions of £? Discussing 4 core values - which he failed on. It explains why our legal system is in such a state that allowed the post office scandal - explains how the board of the post office (Alice Perkins, Moya etc) got their positions. Does he not feel guilty about the victims, who were robbed and died. How is this man in the House of Lords? Lets hope he is called to trial.
Impressive public servant.
41:40 clearly the solution to be able to vote and work outside of London is to be able to vote remotely
I find Alister and Rory a breath of fresh air
And when major had his meetings with his female friend.
Well I don't beleive a word of that, it's just a PR job. Regardless of how he asked, he''s voted in so DO IT.