Use the Swartz
Вставка
- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- A brief look at the life of Aaron Swartz and how I use the tools and ideas he championed to help bring understanding to the subject of Mallory and Irvine's 1924 climb of Mount Everest.
Videos about Aaron:
• The Internet's Own Boy...
• Dad: The govt. killed ...
Jake Norton's post (No relation to E.F. Norton from the 1924 expedition):
jakenorton.com...
Info about the changing of "from a certain point of view":
www.slashfilm....
The Open Library at the Internet Archive:
archive.org
If Norton had plans to return to the mountain with belief he himself could summit, he would absolutely not want there to be any suspicion that he was not the first to do so.
Ergo, Mallory and Irvine had to have 'failed'.
‘You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.’ Dr Who
This is intensely fascinating. I believe Mr. Tracy is breaking ground here in this analysis. This is sound reasoning as a matter of the weight of the evidence from the known Odell statements. Also, as a matter of psychology, this wasn't Odell's moment of glory to relay- he was an eye witness. The fact that Odell's earliest statement is written in his diary and includes highly relevant details as to M/I's position and movements lends heavy credence to the theory that M/I in fact were successfull. In fact, if this were testimony in a court of law, Odell's earliest statements would almost certainly be admissible evidence on the question whether the summit occurred. Odell, although down the mountain at a significant distance, was essentially a present, first-hand witness of these events. He wasn't relaying something someone said to him. He was relaying knowledge of the events he perceived with his eyes from a vantage that would allow such perception. Later statements by a witness, long after an event, are known to be less reliable indicators of the accuracy of the recall and perception of an event. I was unaware of Mr. Norton's involvement in the temporal and spatial evolution of Odell's placement of M/I's whereabouts when he saw M/I "...going strong..."; also fascinating.
Hello Michael, thank you for this video. Compiling all the statements and seeing how they evolved is definitely interesting to think about what happened.
Odell being pressured by Norton, (who was the expedition leader since Bruce was sick), does seem to make sense. I can think of 3 reasons that might have made Norton alter the first statements :
1) He wanted to keep his altitude record out of ego. Possible, but unlikely in my opinion, since Everest was still considered unclimbed (no climbs completed yet) it had to be obvious to him that his record could not hold forever. Also, would he be ready to alter his friends performance just to claim he had a record ? That reason does not seem enough to me, but I might be too naive (maybe they were colleagues and not friends, and maybe he hated that they used O2 so he wanted to downgrade their high point, who can know for sure...)
2) As other comments have mentionned : making sure the mountain is still considered unclimbed. Putting them above the third step at 12:50 would make most people think they reached the summit. If you put them lower, you increase the doubt. Therefore, a future success would increase your case that you were the first one to summit, while decreasing the case for M&I. I think this one is possible, let's not forget Norton did have to turn around just days prior to M&I... Who wouldn't be beyond disappointed in his shoes ?
3) To assure funds for future expeditions. I think this one is the most likely, and that it's at least the reason Norton gave Odell to change his accounts. If you say "M&I were seen close the summit and most likely succeeded", then your funders could tell you "Well, the moutain was climbed then, congratulations on your expedition". If you increase the doubt and decrease their case, you can tell funders that the job is "unfinished" and make them fund more expeditions. I'm sure Norton did consider this expedition an unfinished job simply because no one was alive to tell the tale, and therefore wanted new expeditions to be fund.
These would be my theories, the third being the most likely and at least the one Norton gave Odell (while maybe having something more in mind). I think this question could be answered by looking at the contents of interviews members of the expedition (and Norton) gave once they came back : how did they speak of their expedition and M&I's climb ? It could give clues about what they had in mind at the time...
It's all three reasons. You got to understand the British Public School mentality. These are young, well bred men, from the wealthy classes, brought up to be Alpha males and trained to rule over others. They were officer class and had just been in a brutal world war and survived. They had a huge sense of arrogance and entitlement; and knowing that future success and reward in British society, was still based on who you were connected to; fame and the voracious East Indian Company colonial desire to claim anything and control it - it was natural that both Odell and Norton wanted to be First on the summit on the next expedition. Putting Mallory further down the mountain suited lots of purposes - one of them being class war. It was politics.
Thank you, Michael. I think you are on the right track here. The only experience I have with climbing is in the relatively small mountains of the continental US. I've summited both Grand Teton and Mt. Rainier, as a young man, many years ago now.
My strongest memory of those mountains, having only seen the mountains of New Hampshire previously, was of the overwhelming size of them, especially Mt. Rainier. I had read many descriptions of the routes we were attempting in preparation for our climbs, and looked at the pictures available. I still found it incredibly hard to match written descriptions to the physical reality.
I can only imagine that something the size of Everest multiplies that problem a hundred fold. It's remarkably hard to place oneself back in those times. The gentlemen who wrote those first descriptions had no video, no motion picture film, no easily portable large-format cameras. I would think that the entry made by Odell in his diary at the time of his sighting is the critical piece.
He would have burned in his mind that image of the two dots moving on the snow. I have to think that he saw them approaching the final pyramid, above what we call the third step. He took no photograph there. Looking at photographs taken from different, further vantage points, it would be very difficult for him to match them up with his position on the mountain and with what he would have been able to see from there.
Now, the question of what Mallory and Irvine were able to do on the final pyramid is still in question. I sure hope they made it though. And I also wish they had made it back to their families.
John Noel was the official photographer and filmmaker on the 1922 and 1924 expeditions
I agree strongly with your point that Odell's perception of the two dots moving would have been forged into his memory. It is well known that emotional moments in life are powerfully stamped in our memories in a way that is not recorded for other events. Odell, a member of the team attempting the summit, would have been moved emotionally, at least a bit, and hence the time and event stamping in his mind as to the perceptions he absorbed. Good point.
Im wondering if at the time of Mallory&Irvines climb and disappearance that others saw it as an opportunity to be the one/s to claim they were the 'first' to make it to the top of the World.
And if it were believed Mallory & Irvine did make the summit,Further expedition funding would dry up?
Just thinkin out loud
Certainly a possibility. I didn't get into all the back and forth with members of the 1933 expedition, but by then it certainly seemed that the new generation of climbers wanted the mountain to unclimbed for exactly that reason.
@@michaeltracy2356 I dont know of any other reason for somebody to keep changing his story of where he last saw Mallory..foggy memory maybe,But not foggy enough to keep pushing the sighting further down the mountain.
Oxygen bottles magically changing location
Adding or subtracting context or words from firsthand accounts then put into books and alot of other shennanigans.
Im no climber,im just a curious bystander that became insterested in Mallory&Irvine and over the years checked news stories,websites etc hoping to read about some irrefutable evidence that they did make the summit.. But after following your videos here,and some of my own homework,The only irrefutable thing ive found is that no matter WHO summited first,Somebody named 'Joe Baggadix' is going to manipulate facts or notes or journal entries,Move or ignore oxygen bottles,Steal somebodys undershorts and pants,gloves and dignity.
I dunno maybe im a pessimist and im just going to assume that Mallory and Irvine DID summit,Somebody learned at a later date that its fact and several versions of 'Joe Baggadix' have all played a hand in not telling the truth and ruining any chance of an unadulterated truth
And to avoid any confusion as to who 'Joe Baggadix' is...im not reffering to you Mr.Tracy.
Ive found exactly ONE person trying to navigate the BS and lies or simple misunderstandings of the events of the 1924 Everest expedition and the fact that certain people despise you for it are the same ones who dont seem to want to lock horns with you and engage in sharing information or ideas or knowledge is very telling of their integrity...or lack of it
Bravo-Zulu to you Mr Tracy for the work you do.
I will continue to follow you here
So many questions... No answers..
12:50 @ 1st step? Why it took them so long?
12:50 @ 2nd step? Is there a snow slope there?
5 minutes to climb 2nd step? They said it was not even possible to climb!
12:50 @ 2nd step and turn? How much time to the falling point? Still daylight? No goggles on?
And many many others... You have introduced strong arguments Michael and your research is great.
Thank you for sharing once again!
Thank you. The time you give to share information is greatly appreciated.
Gotta say, I totally overlooked this video for almost a week, because I did not mentally associate the thumbnail with this video series.
One problem with the "Norton was jealous and wanted the height record" theory, is that Norton corrected his June 11 dispatch just a few days later on June 14 (published in July 5 NYT, page 7). He writes, "The last point at which they were seen was determined by the theodolite as 28,227 feet, less than 800 feet from the top. Together with the height reached by Dr. Somervell and myself, which, measured by the theodolite, was 28,128 feet, these constitute the world's record for climbing with and without oxygen, respectively."
With that in mind, it's harder for me to see malice in Norton's story. He acknowledges Mallory got higher contemporaneously. But what's clear is that early on he really convinced himself (and later Odell) that Odell saw them on the 2nd step, which matches the 28,227 measurement. I wish we better understood why, so we could more effectively query his conclusion.
Michael, you make the claim that the crucial dispatch from Odell is the only dispatch to be destroyed from the entire expedition. I'm not sure I'd heard that claim before. Can you cite some kind of source? I'd like to look at this a little more closely.
Remember that Norton held the Everest altitude record for a few decades after this expedition, so with Mallory and Irvine's position being unverified, Norton technicality would've/could've benefited from nudging them a bit lower down the mountain.
👍👍👍👍👍 curiouser and curiouser. Thank you
Although there are exceptions allowed when the best evidence makes it necessary, there is no question that accounts written closer to an event in time and in location are usually more reliable.
I love Aaron so much.
Thanks for another brilliant analysis!
He was murdered according to all his friend and fiance. I enjoy your series on the subject of Mallory...
I would love to read about this if you can send any links
Great one!
Speculation: if Mallory and Irvine had sumitted and then died, funding for a return trip would have been harder to come by, perhaps.
Hi Michael,
Thank you for making these videos, I really enjoy watching them.
I am not someone who has a great deal of mountain experience, and thus my question is perhaps somewhat simple in it’s character.
I have been wondering why so little debris have been found of the 1924 expedition on the mountain? Where are the rest of the cached bottles? Have they simply rolled down the mountain?
Also Mallory was found face down. I have not seen anybody talk about if there where traces of the oxygen system on his body, what happend to the metal rig, the valves, hoses, and mask? Shouldn’t there be something there on or close to him?
They discarded any and all oxygen equipment on the mountain while climbing, most likely on the way up. People cut their TOOTHBRUSHES in half to save for weight. Ever little bit of weight that your carrying or not carrying can affect your strength and stamina. And did you know that the main reason that Irvine was even with them on this attempt? It was because he was managing all the oxygen systems that were obviously very primitive and weighed about 60 plus pounds. Maybe their systems broke down on the hike up? But regardless you don’t carry anything that you no longer need, because your already being starved for oxygen. And dude this was 75 years before Mallory was discovered years after the fact so no telling where their gear went especially since they most likely fell way off from the now main route. It’d be easier to understand if you were a climber and if you ever see Everest from the North Side you’ll understand
I almost missed this in my feed, thinking it was a pretentious film essay about a mostly forgotten Mel Brooks comedy I’m barely old enough to know about.
Same here. I didn't watch until I noticed Mr. Tracy's name.
A viewer commented on the articles on page 25. archive.org/details/sim_new-york-times_1924-06-26_73_24260/page/n1/mode/2up?q=28%2C000.
Then it got deleted. Not sure if it was from him or UA-cam.
I edited the comment and there was an error and looks like it was deleted somehow....this article are basically all the coomments/notes from Norton that NY TImes published quite interesting. Like you are pointing out in this video, the closest the observation are from an event the less they are distorded. Norton basically says in this article, Odell saw then going strong for the summit, Mallory advise Odell to have is camera ready at the base of the pyramid at 8AM (probably more11AM) 650 feet below the summit, Sherpa reported Mallory and Irvine to be quite strong with oxygen climbing to camp 6, Norton is clear that the 11AM & 28 000 feet observation is not based on facts, the death of Mallory and Irvine is not wheater or oxygen but a montaineering accident. I really think they we're at the third step when Odell saw them the only mystery is what route did they take the zig zag or the "ridge" no way ;-)
archive.org/details/sim_new-york-times_1924-06-26_73_24260_0/page/n24/mode/1up?q=mallory
moving Mallorys high point lower gives someone else the height record.
10:39 2024 and not 1924 . . .
Dear Michael Sir, what, in your opinion, could have been the reason for none of the photographers to have spotted both Mallory and Irvine on their quest to the summit.... regards, as always
Clouds
Hi Micheal, I love your channel and find glaring similarities with your work and that of the likes of Graham Hancock/Randall Carlson who are up against the same kind of denial as you are. Keep up the great work!
Why would Norton deliberately want to push their sighting further down the mountain? I’m having a hard time buying an intentional nefarious act by Norton.
You should start with the facts. There is the letter to the times that Norton said they were seen at 11AM at 28000ft. His diary entry, for which a photo is put in the video shows he wrote down 12:50 just 2 days prior. So, why did Norton say 11AM when he wrote down 12:50?
Who was given the highest altitude reached after the expedition? Who tore up the original note from Odell? Who was in a position of authority over O'Dell? Who would be able to keep Odell from future expeditions? There is no trouble finding a motive. The purest unbiased information is the original note from Odell.
It needn't be nefarious, and in any case I don't think anyone really knows what his motivations were. Some ideas have been offered that make at least some sense: maybe he cared about the altitude record; maybe he wanted to go back and get a clear first ascent; maybe he didn't want the world lionizing his reckless former colleague who got himself and Irvine killed and oh by the way was a lesser mountaineer than him (Norton).
What we DO know is that Odell's story changed over time, and Norton was driving it one way or another.
Ugh, this is the problem with human memory. Even if Norton or Odell never meant to be malicious in how they presented the evidence of where they last saw Mallory and Irving, there later accounts hold less water than the original diary and dispatch entries. If the wording in both messages wasn't consistent, you could maybe make a case that Odell left out details for various reasons but that doesn't make much sense in context.
Anyways, it's sad that so much nonsense has become interwoven into this narrative over the years. Too many people have an agenda regarding the ultimate question of whether or not Mallory and Irving made it to the top. It's a bit fitting in a way given how everest itself has become a bastardization of what it once was but still sad nonetheless. I do wish all parties involved would just release their evidence/information. It almost makes me want to take a drone of my own to everst and fly it around to see what can be seen in the most likely places.
As an aside, I am a developer professionally. I actually just started my own security company. One of our goals is to try to take the internet and give as much of it back to the people as possible. We have a few applications that we are working on which try to subvert some of the more prominent "for profit" features from the web.
I am getting pissed at Thom Pollard's M&I channel on UA-cam, he is neither one of them but he is making out to be the M&I channel on UA-cam turning their story into a day time tv soap. I know he wants subscriptions but this goes too far.
Something i been wondering on, -how was first ascent defined in 1924? just getting to the top, or getting to the top and down again alive? if the definition was the latter, then they didn't make a first ascent, regardless of making the summit or not, and there would be no logical reason to alter any times and sightings, that would only be meaningful if first ascent only was getting to the top, period, and they actually believed M&I had summited, and not turned around, and was on their way back down when they perished?
Mallory himself said it was getting to the top and back down alive. There is no question that this was not a successful "summit' or "first ascent" or anything else. We all agree they died. What I am looking at is whether they reached the summit -- which has been defined forever as reaching the summit.
Just because you cannot see a logical reason to alter the times, etc does mean others agree with you. A couple people have already posted perfectly logical reasons. And in any case, you should start with the fact that Norton did alter the time and location in his first dispatch and the either say that Norton was acting completely irrational or he did it because he had a logical reason to do so.
👍👍
RIP Aaron.....free ASSANGE!
Yesssss use the swartz😏😏
To me this is pretty obvious:
Norton, jealous of Mallory and Irvine, conspired with the Yeti after Norton´s own summit attempt had failed. The Yeti, who wanted to reach the summit himself, then killed Mallory and Irvine before they could even reach it. Mallory fell down the north face after being hit in the head with the ice axe found on the ridge (nota bene: the hole in his skull). Irvine initially survived the assault but was eventually partly devoured and then thrown down the Kangshung face (this is why Irvine´s body has never been found). After the hearty meal the Yeti then took the remaining gear and went for the summit which he reached late in the afternoon with the aid of Mallory´s and Irvine´s oxygen bottles. Obviously, evidence is scarce at best: First of all, the Yeti must have died of exhaustion on the descent after he ran out of oxygen (it is impossible to find the furry remains of a predominantly white animal up there). And secondly, even if the Yeti was found, there is unfortunately no camera to prove his summit success as he had already accidentally disposed of the camera by throwing Irvine off the ridge.
Odell, by the way, witnessed the gruesome murder but was then threatened by Norton not to tell anyone or otherwise the Yeti would come for him too. Subsequently, Odell gave numerous dubious and varying accounts of what he presumably saw that day with the intention of distracting attention from the real story (not knowing that there was no need for this anymore as the Yeti had died on the descent).
So, in the end, everybody benefited from Norton´s sick plan: Mallory and Irvine became legends in the mountaineering community, the Yeti fullfilled his lifelong dream of becoming the first Yeti on top of Everest (something he would have never achieved without oxygen), Norton kept his altitude record (for humans) and Odell wasn´t killed by the Yeti.
Fun fact: According to a Sherpa I spoke to during one of my expeditions there was another Yeti who supposedly reached the summit of Everest sometime in the late 70s or early 80s - this time without supplemental oxygen. Does anyone have a source on this?
A refreshing new perspective. Good job.
@Michael Tracy I was doing some research on the 1999 expedition where Mallory's body was discovered and was looking into the work of Liesl Clark and the suggestion that the facial wound Mallory had sustained may have been caused during the movement of his body by the research team and furthermore how key items including the presence of summit rocks alongside the watch was missed from the initial search of the body. Could you please link these resources or outline where these could be found as my Google searches have proved unfruitful. Thank you very much for the wonderful content.
In general, you can ask for assistance over at the Yeti Academy: discord.gg/D5ADU6e8. The information is sort of all over the place and perhaps I'll consolidate it at some point, but it is not a top priority.