My Worst Mistakes Learning to Bake Sourdough (10+ Year Career)
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- Опубліковано 5 кві 2024
- I'm going to share the three biggest mistakes that stick out in my 10+ year career of baking sourdough. Understanding what went wrong when I made these mistakes will help you avoid the same pitfalls!
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#sourdoughbaking - Навчання та стиль
Hey Phil, one of the things I recently discovered was my oven is at a slant, and baking my sourdough’s adjacent to the slant caused the loaf to lean to one side. Now I have figured it out I face the loaf parallel and now the slant really helps open up the ear on the loaf 😂
Also great video!
LOL - now that's how you dial an oven in properly. Great job Ben
Your oven should have little feet at the bottom to help level it. Highly recommend it
Free master class everyone! Great teacher who seems to understand us beginners ( tears and all)😊
Thank you! 😃
Thank you for your helpful tips! Yay!
Phil I've learned so much from you!! Your videos are the best. Thanks for your attention to detail
I get a lot of compliments for my loaves, and my husband calls me "the bread fairy"!
Awesome! I'm so pleased you are enjoying your sourdough baking and judging by your husbands nickname for you, you are doing a great job. Keep up the great work :)
Hi Philip, greetings from Chania, Crete. I am very new to sourdough bread making (I have made 8 loaves so far, half of them at 600g, 1/2 the batch size of the video, and the rest at 1.2kg). Your videos are by far the best and easiest to follow, and not a day passes w/o me watching at least 2-3 videos. I use the no knead recipe (I must have watched that video more than 20 times), and the last 2-3 times I have enhanced it w/ one extra stretch-and-fold step, plus using the firdge after the dough is in the banneton and before scoring and baking it (the results were encouraging vs. previous attempts, although I do not really know what I'm doing). I am getting better at working on the dough on the counter to make it into a ball. My bread does not rise nearly as much as yours, but it tastes great and it gradually gets better. My recent loaves are roughly 1.2kg ea. w/ 600g flour (150g Allatini whole grain, 150g "BIO choriatiko" from Lidl and 300g all-purpose), 400g water, 200g starter, 20g sea salt (proportions are from your no-knead recipe). I have a question for you: I feed my starter exclusively w/ ALLATINI Agioriteiko whole grain flour because it has the highest protein content, but then I bake w/ various flours - my starter is some two months old. Should I feed the starter w/ the same flour blend as the final dough or keep boosting it w/ the highest protein content I can find? Anyway, THANKS for getting me in this *incredible* activity, my wife loves my bread, and so do all who have tried it, although I still have a long ways to go. Too early to talk about mistakes as I am at a stage in which I probably do everything more-or-less wrong, but the results are still great and encouraging :)
Hey buddy! Sending you a big wave from the mainland to Crete! I'd suggest feeding your starter with a strong white bread flour if you can. I find my starter smells and tastes a little rancid when I use 100% wholewheat. Don't get too fixated on the protein content. For example, a bread flour with a protein content of 13% will probably produce a stronger dough than a whole-wheat flour with 14% protein. There's too much to dive into in the comments section. But sourcing a strong white flour with a protein content of 12-13% as your 'base' flour may be the way to go when you are starting out. You can then add 5-10% of alternative flours to adjust the texture and flavour of the bread. I hope this helps but keep at it. you'll be shocked how quickly things start to fall into place the more you bake.
@@CulinaryExploration really useful advice - THANK YOU so much Philip, I'm itching to start right now w/ the new process. I'm noting all of your comments in my logbook. Thanks for the encouragement too, I much appreciate it.
You’re more than welcome. I love helping my Greek friends with their sourdough journeys. If you need any pointers, you know where I am.
@@CulinaryExploration So true! "you'll be shocked how quickly things start to fall into place the more you bake."
Αποστολή θα σου δώσω μια δυο συμβουλές μιας και ασχολούμαι με το θέμα εδώ και 2-3 χρόνια. Αρχικά το ψωμί σου μπορεί να φουσκώσει όπως βλέπεις εδώ ή σε άλλα βίντεο δεν είναι αδύνατο! Συγκεντρώσου στο εξής: πολύ δυνατό προζύμι,όταν λέω δυνατό δεν εννοώ σε πρωτεΐνες αλλά στους μικροοργανισμούς. Προσωπικώς έχω βρει ότι μόνο τα πλούσια άλευρα όπως ολικής και ιδιαίτερα το σικάλεως δημιουργούν ένα πολύ ζωντανό προζύμι. Δεν ξέρω αν το διατηρείς στο ψυγείο(εγώ έτσι κάνω και ταίζω μία στο τόσο)αλλά επειδή αυτό είναι και το πιο εύκολο και πρακτικό θα στο πρότεινα. Στο ψυγείο όμως ειδικά αν το αφήσουμε ατάιστο μέρες μετά θα δεις ότι μυρίζει αρκετά ξινό, αυτό σημαίνει ότι υπάρχει υπερβολική δραστηριότητα στους μικροοργανισμούς και σίγουρα αυτό δεν είναι σε θέση εκείνη την ώρα να ζυμώσεις. Εγώ βγάζοντας από το ψυγείο θα κάνω τουλάχιστον 2 ταίσματα πριν το βάλω να ζυμώσω και αυτό στις πιο ζεστές εποχές. Τον χειμώνα σκέψου για να μου ξυπνήσει και ανέβει καλά μπορεί να το βγάλω από το ψυγείο Τετάρτη και να ταίζω ως την Παρασκευή για να ζυμώσω Σάββατο. Γενικά έχω καταλάβει ότι το παιχνίδι ξεκινάει από το καλό προζύμι. Έπειτα θα σου πρότεινα να ζυμώνεις πάντα πρωί ώστε να έχεις τον χρόνο όλης της ημέρας για να φουσκώσει το ζυμάρι, εγώ που είμαι Αθήνα τον χειμώνα το βάζω κοντά στην σόμπα(όχι πολύ βέβαια γιατί θα το χαλάσει, ίσα να παίρνει μία ελαφρά ζεστή) και μου παίρνει 10 ώρες συνήθως να φουσκώσει ένα 50-70% του αρχικού όγκου. Ο Phill έχει δείξει σε άλλο βίντεο κόλπο με βαζάκι, βάζεις μέσα μία μικρή ποσότητα ζύμης,την μαρκάρεις και έτσι παρακολουθείς το ποσό φουσκώνει, εγώ το κάνω πάντα και βοηθάει πολύ. Όσο για το αλεύρι της βασικής ζύμης ανάλογα και την συνταγή σου, θα σου έλεγε την κυρία ποσότητα να την έχεις από οποιοδήποτε λευκό αλεύρι με πολλή πρωτεΐνη. Εγώ έχω βρει ένα όχι γνωστό αλλά πολύ δυνατό και οικονομικό και δουλεύει τέλεια. Πριν βάλεις το βράδυ στο ψυγείο να δεις να έχει φουσκώσει έστω ένα 50% του αρχικού όγκου αλλιώς το φούσκωμα στο ψυγείο δεν θα σώσει και πολλά, δυστυχώς το λέω από εμπειρία και έχω ψήσει πάρα πολλά ψωμιά αυτά τα χρόνια. Αυτά εν ολίγοις, καλά ψησίματα!
I never thought about the size of the proving basket. I’d like to know more about this
This is something that we uncovered in our community. Once the dough weight was adjusted correctly for the size of the basket the volume of the loaf improved greatly. Here's a brief explanation I gave to a previous viewer: Imagine having two proofing baskets side by side that are exactly the same size. In one you place 800g of dough. When the dough has proofed properly it fills the basket gaining the maximum volume (and height) possible. In the second basket you place 400g of dough. When the dough has properly proofed it will only reach half way up the basket. After turning them out of the basket the dough that was properly sized will have more volume (height) than the other. So after baking one loaf will have more volume than the other. That's why sizing the dough correctly will help you achieve the maximum volume possible. Hope this helps.
Same mistakes, still struggling to fix them. Actually, a few days ago, with a piece of paper in my hand with the dimensions of my bannetons, I was looking in the stores that sell bannetons, to find the capacity of each one. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
The stores often get the basket's target dough weight wrong. I'm working on a method to calculate the dough weight and will keep you posted! What else are you struggling with?
@@CulinaryExploration Another struggle...the obvious, over or under puffed dough. My loaves did a decent oven spring - not perfect - and blisters, but not fully round in baking. To help my self, I use an aliquot method with an 60ml container. I look forward, what new knowledge you will bring us!
My issue continues to be when to know when proofing/fermentation is complete. Had a really nice loaf the other day and tried to replicate and was overproofed.
It takes time to understand the process and I appreciate how challenging it can feel. I struggled with the same issue, sometimes I'd nail the fermentation and then fail to replicate it on the next bake. Experience plays a huge role but I did speed my learning process up by using a pH meter. But even then you need to work out the best pH levels to hit for each stage. For example, my old faithful recipe works great if I shape the dough and place in the basket at pH 4.5, ambient proof until the dough hits 4.1 and then place in the fridge. When I bake around 12 hours later the dough is around pH 4.0. During my experiments with the pH meter I was baking a hell of a lot so I guess you could argue that my improvements also came with time handling the dough. I found that using a small bowl or container (2.5L) to bulk ferment the dough really helped me in monitoring how much the dough was increasing in volume. When I used a larger container the dough seemed to get lost and I couldn't notice much difference in volume.
@@CulinaryExploration thanks! My bowl is a good size for the 800-900g recipes I'm making. Snuck hydration to 72% as well. I saw something about dough temp and ferment time as well. I should start keeping a log of my bakes. I'll look into pH! Love the channel - really has made me more comfortable! Moving to Japan this summer so all new flours (and small ovens) to play with!
Two of our community members are baking amazing Sourdough in Japan. They are getting great results with the flour and countertop ovens. Feel free to drop me an email if you’d like me to ask them any questions.
Hi Phil. Thanks for the generous tips. Your oven spring and crust is to die for! I can consistently bake a decent loaf with decent oven spring (thanks to your content). My last frontier is getting a thin crust! I always get a thick chewy crust. I use a Dutch oven and there's enough moisture inside that when I lift the lid after 30-35min I still see the last steam leaving the vessel. Any parameter(s) I can play with in my pursuit for a thinner crust?
Hey buddy. Too much steam/moisture can create a chewy crumb but it sounds like you've got that dialled in. If I were you, I'd try reducing the amount of time the dough is covered. It only needs to covered long enough to facilitate the spring. Try cutting it down to 20 mins and let me know how you get on
Man, when i started sourdough, i wish someone had said start with 60-65% hydration. Everyone does 80% or something else that is high and crazy for beginners
The protein content gives us a good idea of how the dough may behave but it's not until you get your hands on the dough and bake it that you really know. Ingredients, temperature and skill level are the three main variables when trying to work out the best hydration. I'm testing out new base (strong bread) flours at the moment. My current flour, ambient temp and capability of handling the dough mean I can normally use around 78% for the best result. While testing the new flour I immediately dropped the hydration down to 70% and worked up. For a beginner I'd suggest 65% every time. Whats the point in struggling!
@@CulinaryExploration too bad much of sourdough UA-cam throws out higher numbers. I'm in Canada and all our flour, even AP is very high protein. That's how I learned quality actually matters quite a bit
@@mattymattffs Yep, I use Robin Hood AP here which has 13.2%. It's great for strength but I don't think it's an amazing flour. Learning how to balance the hydration helps with being able to experiment using flour that's not as strong. I can still make a good loaf using Greek soft AP flour with 10% protein. It may not have an open crumb but it does produce a wonderfully soft loaf.
Hello Phil, please do a video on starters esp. trying different techniques like using honey. I am still trying to make a good starter...
Question: when using the float test do I try it every time I bake or just bake after my starter is doubled. Thank you for encouraging us. You are like a Father teaching his children.
Hey bud. The starter vid is on its way, stay tuned. I’ve never really used the float test. Instead I wait until the starter reaches its peak in volume and is full of bubbles. The more you bake the more you’ll come to understand your starter. Just remember to keep feeding your starter daily during its first weeks. Your loaves will improve the more established the starter becomes. Hope this helps 👍
My biggest mistake is making starters that have no power to them. After two weeks, sometimes 3, the starter always seems sluggish/lethargic. Even if it has a good healty sour smell to it, it just never seems to want to make the bread rise.
Two to three weeks is still early in the process. I've just finished filming a video about starters. I used a 14 day old starter to bake a 65% hydrated loaf and it was sluggish. It performed better after a month but still didn't have the power of my established starter. If it goes over four weeks and you are seeing poor performance I'd consider trying a different flour. Some of our community members have struggled with getting their starter to blossom but once they found a suitable flour they were flying.
Tell us more about the baskets please. How do you know you got it right?
When the dough is proofed correctly and fills the basket you will have got it right. We want to make full use of the volume of the basket.
Thanks for this! What size basket would you recommend for a 600g loaf?
I'd suggest one of the oval baskets I use. That will take 800g of dough which will lose 10-20% during baking. That should get you close (ish) to your 600g loaf weight.
I've been using your basic no-knead recipe for my last two bakes as a beginner, and reallllllly lowered the hydration level. Whilst the ear and crust are great, the insides are always gummy.
I use a different recipe for my whole wheat sandwich loaf, and there's never any gummyness. But I use my stand mixer for that.
There's reletively warm temps where I am, sub-tropical east coast of Australia, so rarely have to do an overnight ferment or proof.
Any thoughts about this? Should I incorporate more stretch n folds?
Hey there, I don't think it has anything to do with the stretch and folds. It's obviously not your starter if your sandwich loaf is turning out well. Perhaps your fermentation process is a little off. I'd suggest checking that the entire fermentation is on point (BF and proof). If this is dialled in correctly and the loaf has been baked properly you shouldn't have any issues with a gummy crumb. Keep me posted.
@@CulinaryExploration Thanks. I increased my BF and final proof = nailed it. Thank you!!
@@sarebear483 Awesome, great job
Where is the calculator?
Hi Bruno, the link with the calculator is automatically sent out. If for ay reason you haven't received it drop me an email and I'll ping it straight over to you - explorationculinary@gmail.com
Hello, I`m also from Greece and I cant seem to get my hands on decent bread flour. What brand do you use/recommend ? Thank you.
I've been using Robin Hood All-Purpose flour with good results. Don't let the name put you off as it has a 13,2% protein content and works well for sourdough. I've recently been experimenting with some of the Italian Caputo flour. The one I tried the other day is branded as a pizzeria flour in a white and red bag. It has 12.5% protein and produced really nice results. Maybe better than the Robin Hood. It's 00 so I'm guessing the amount of bran and germ extracted is quite high meaning there won't be a lot of nutrition left in there (I haven't researched it yet). I found the Caputo flour in Macro. Failing that you could try a Tsoureki flour. They are normally a blend of soft wheat and vital wheat gluten. I hope this helps.
@@CulinaryExploration Thanks, this does help alot. :)
@@mikegioulis4402 You're welcome. You know where I am if you need anything else.
Δεν ξέρω πού μένεις και αν μπορείς να το βρεις, εγώ χρησιμοποιώ το μύλοι Αχαΐας έχει 14,1% πρωτείνη και είναι και οικονομικό, το βρίσκω γύρω στο 1,50€ το κιλό.
Never could get the calculator to open. It just keeps asking my name and email Over and Over again. Please advise.
It may well have dropped into your junk box, unfortunately it happens. No need to worry, you can just drop me an email and I'll make sure the copy is sent out super fast - explorationculinary@gmail.com
...Even if the dough is doubling and tripling and passes the float test...
If this is not a sign of a good, active starter, then why?
How does one know when a starter is actually good to go?
The culture needs to time to develop strength and be strong enough to raise a good loaf. I'd suggest feeding your starter for 14 days and then trying your first bake. But you'll see great improvement in the results as the starter gets more established. Hope this helps.
@@CulinaryExploration Interesting... I've been trying to get to the root of this problem for 5 years!!
Since I live in the tropics, I always thought I was over-proofing,
but I watched a vid last week where she gave the same advice as you,
and the Bread Code too, who says it's the ph being too acidic, which breaks down the gluten structure.
So... I'll ask 1 more question if you don't mind. :)
I'm the only bread-eater in the house, and I bake 2 or 4 loaves at a time, which lasts a few weeks.
Does this mean I have to feed my starter every day for the rest of my life?
@@teip8517 No you don't. Once the starter is established it can be kept in the fridge between bakes. For example, I make a touch more levain than I need. After I've mixed the dough I'm left with about 5-10g left over. I leave it in the jar and pop a lid on it. It's left in the fridge. The night before my next baking session I pull it out and use enough flour and water to create a new levain (leaving a touch left over again). The levain is left out to ferment overnight and the process starts again. The starter is fine for a couple of weeks. It may help to give it a boost feed if it gets sluggish. I've left mine for over 50 days and it still raised a great loaf. Bake with Jack introduced me to this method. It's great.
Chef, my problem is the first 20 min ( i used combo cooker and Staub DO ) When i opened the lids the dough ate beautifully raised and tall, the next 20 min after the lids are open, the dough kinda shrunk. I still can't figure out why tho 😢
Just to clarify... when you open the DO has your loaf sprung up or not?
@CulinaryExploration I preheated my oven with my DO to 475F for 75 to 90 min, bake first 20 min at 475F, open lid bake 475F for 10 min, and lower to 450F for another 10 min
That lid on period is to trap steam to prevent the crust hardening prematurely. It does need to form at some point though. Try stealing 5 mins from the lid off portion and adding 5 on to the lid on part
@@lindaang7814 That's a very hot oven. I usually preheat to 430F.
@cannontrodder will try that, thanks 😊
How is it possible that the wrong size banneton could produce such drastically different sized loaves, even when the bulk fermentation and proofs are the same?
My confusion was due to the smaller loaf being the result of a basket that is too big? Wouldnt it make sense that the loaf would stay small if the basket was too small for it to grow in size?
Okay i think the different size loaves he compared wasn't the same weight to begin with.
I don’t have baskets, are they absolutely necessary?
Nope, but they are helpful. If you don't want to buy a basket you can use a bowl lined with a cloth that's been dusted with flour. You can still get excellent results, experiment and get creative. Keep me posted :)
Dude has forgot more about baking than i know
My biggest mistake was letting my strong starter weaken over time by using improper feeding ratios.
What's your feeding ratio now, John? And do you feed daily or leave the starter in the fridge between bakes?
I bake every 2-3 days and keep 20g of starter in refrigerator. I feed it to make 120g then refrigerate remainder. This way I never have excess to deal with.
@@john.home1 Fine tuned to perfection! Nice one John
Just buy bread
Scaling a recipe to my pan is pretty simple: Just take the ratio original recipe pan's volume to my pan's volume and use the result as the multiplier to scale the ingredients. Pretty standard (assuming you trust the original). However, what if I'm developing a new recipe from scratch? Is there something like a standard dough weight to container volume ratio I should be targeting for baking pans and bannetons? For instance, I've seen various "guides" that give suggested dough weight ranges for 8" and 10" round and oval bannetons, but they don't all agree - probably because not all bannetons are precisely made, nor are they all the same heights. I can easily find the volume of my banneton by filling it with beans or rice, so a standard weight:volume ratio should (theoretically) allow me to calculate my target dough weight for any banneton in my posession.
I also wanted to thank you for your helpful content. I've been baking with sourdough for many years, and your tips have helped me streamline my process. I like your lamination method, though I find that it drastically changes my dough temp due to my granite countertop. I apparently need to get a nice heavy wood butcher block!
I am confused, why does an oversized proofing basket reduce the volume of the baked dough?
Imagine having two proofing baskets side by side that are exactly the same size. In one you place 800g of dough. When the dough has proofed properly it fills the basket gaining the maximum height possible. In the second basket you place 400g of dough. When the dough has properly proofed it will only reach half way up the basket. After turning them out of the basket the dough that was properly sized will have more volume (height) than the other. So after baking one loaf will have more volume than the other. That's why sizing the dough correctly will help you achieve the maximum volume possible. Hope this helps.