Carry Supports: Are They Real Supports Or Troll Picks? | League of Legends
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2021
- For today's video, I want to revisit the support role and talk about the growing popularity of Carry Supports, champions who "support" their team through supplemental damage. There's a lot of conflicting opinions on whether Carry Supports are actually supports, or just players who don't feel like playing the role properly. So we're gonna break that down piece by piece to see if they are viable or troll!
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#LoL #Carry #Support - Ігри
“Top lane is where dreams die”
MY MAN
how about an adc who is never played, but has potential for support? i vote for kalista. anyone else? near global vision with her w, able to save her actual adc with her ult, and even if she gets a kill or not with her rend, it is still good damage to spread with hurricane
I went top and found pain, suffering, and rift herald.
@@christopherdavies5787 i played kalista supp before it was ok. the main feature that allowed this is your w. it applies a mark that does good dmg if your linked ally autos it. which is very good with long range adcs and very good vs tank support which was meta. back on the days i played a lot kalista and ashe support so i had a bunch of kalistashe lane which was quite nice.
but there's a big drawback from kalista supp you are really going to be the man to kill you're super squishy and you have stasis on command so they will go for you and you basicly have to stay out of your own poke range most of the time. kalista is super dependent on items to do dmg or even feel good to play so you can forget about dealing dmg (even with the gold kalista isn't the best one actually to do so) and just go for supp items slow with q e and have a stasis.
i liked the concept but really you'd rather just play tresh you'll have more aa dmg and not quite a kalista r but a lantern on a much lower cd.
also you won't have hurricane if you play supp you have less gold a supp item to buy and your mythic and boots and you only get a 2nd item late. if you start going for adc items much more expensive you're screwed. sadly kalista supp is kinda dead now. a nice bet would be to go for a leth item if you want dmg eclipse is a bigger 1 item power spike and allows safer longrange gameplay + a shield
@@lucasbortoluzzi9369 what i am saying is that anyone could be a support if you wanted. i mean, you could be a jerk and try support xhin zhao, or support riven if you have no sanity
Motto of carry supports: " Death is the best cc"
a lot of them int ngl
same. i play "support" senna🤣🤣🤣
ADC: play something with cc
Pyke support player: can I interest you in this cc named "gray screen"
@@JoeTaber gray screen CC is the best CC. No doubt 😂😂😂
Im a pyke main and boy do i Agree everytime i double the bottom i just say "enjoy being colorblind"
My ADC: Play an enchanter
Me, a pyke main: How about instead we just kill them?
Adc should have picked Morgana.
Best of both worlds.
My job is to cc. Death is the best cc.
yeah right people requesting an enchanter
next you'll be saying someone is requesting AD mids
@@zelda123122 I request ad mids, that way I can play mages in their best lane
Gow about, m u r d e r?
Tbh i feel like most off these are failed mid picks so they were pushed to a support role
With Riot wanting to have assassins mid only thats the case... Most skillshot reliant champs are nowdays played botline because they are countered mid 24/7 while also not being the best roamers.
What mages work mid in soloque? Annie, anivia 2 champs that have high burst and are mostly point and click. Ahri, because shes mobile is one of the last skillshot champs that works. And since the last Patch: vex.
I really hope mages come back next season. They are my fav class. Fuk that assassins.
@@chiidybang370 Malzahar actually still does work pretty well in mid still. But yeah, assassins are really fucking annoying, and since everyone wants to be a main character pulling 1v9 fights out of their asses, I doubt Riot will wanna give the same amount of care to mages.
@@MrMetropolis it's not riot it's the game. they add more damage, assassins apply damage the fastest out of everyone. if they buffed base stats mages would be back which is what they need to do. assassins shouldn't 100-0 with one dirk, the class is getting fucking ridiculous and this is from a qiyana main. The game in general is ridiculous I don't even remember trading in mid anymore, everything is always a oneshot all in. The only thing more broken than assassins are bruisers who have the most disgusting items in the game, so much so that now assassins build fucking goredrinker
@@biggiecheese2004 while i agree with you, the problems with mages is not necessarily the base stats, rather the items. in the past, they used to have a lot of different effects. now they are damage, more damage, slow or root, or damage
@@MrMetropolis Malz does well because he has good waveclear and a good ganking ult. He by extension doesn't have any "awful" match ups because he doesn't have to interact with his lane opponent much besides the occasional silence so he can safely clear the wave.
Midlane's full of Ionian dashers and I still wanted to play Velkoz on the rift. Support is the only option left for my Velkoz.
I will recommend you Kled support after 3rd lvl you are God you can hook and get all the kills very easily.
Same man, been a vel main since around season 3-4 and I had to stop recently because it’s just not viable. Really sucks
Same here. Now my literal only option for playing Void champs in mid is Malz, which hey, atleast he's actually a really good blind picking choice.
Though still, I wish Vel'Koz could survive mid without getting instakilled by a Q+R+W combo from LeBlanc
The game would be so much healthier without ionia
Ive actually found huge success in the mid lane as vel. I just ban Yasuo or Yone depending on meta, go barrier, and then smooth sailing. May or may not have to do with my being silver-gold lol
Tbh most mage supports are refugees from the current midlane meta. Burst assassins or fighters, which have in general better item choices than mages. Ziggs Velkoz or Lux mid might sound like standard, but are imo becoming very niche and are more suited for the support role most of the time. In some cases ther apc role just became the better choice overall. Ziggs + Veigar for instance.
Dont forget brand, zyra and swain also force bot too. The fact is they lose to everything that can fight back.
Assassins like leBlanc and kat just kills them while being safe and Fighters like yone and yas take no dmg from them and just sustain so they just lose to everything
I've had more luck veigar top than veigar mid ironically.
@@saleemwinters7117Imo, Yone and Yasuo are closer to melee ADCs than fighters, build path being the same as most crit marksmen ( arguably their playstyle too, being cantered around landing aas and good position ).
I'd say you see Divers in midlane more often than Fighters, which makes sense as they can deliver punishment against both mages and assassins in the laning phase, when Fighters aren't holding their ground laning against control mages or artillery mages.
And, as for items , it is a bit... well, mitigated. Mages owned the game for years, and still benefit from great items ( zhonya and any M.Pen being god tier ) when assassins just used goredrinker to be relevant ( assassin item being kinda trash ).
Not saying that mid mages are in a good spot right now, because they are NOT, but they're also the best pick in MOST of the games played, from iron to pro play...
@@saleemwinters7117 Annie and malz were relegated to support before falling out of the meta nearly entirely.
Prerework fiddle too.
@@Endless_Blossom I agree mages are bad just most artillery mages tend to be bad mid. The days of slowly poking Champs down with no safety nets is over. The best mages mid are the ones that can also protect themselves or draw out fights. Ori, anivia , vex and tf
Poke is one of the three most important parts of supports as it keeps down engage. Many of these mages also dont have a home anywhere else anymore besides support, xerath vel and zyra just cant compete in midlane. Honestly i like these despite their feast or famine style. Pykes an outloar but works similar just an assasin instead of mage.
My God, finally someone said it. All the characters deserve to be played. But it so happened that, for example, it is almost impossible to play Zyra or Brand in other positions. At the same time, we still have these adcs who "hate carry supports", not realizing that this is the only role where they can and should be played. Besides, they just have more potential. My experience has taught me that where shields and heal do not help, control and an incredible amount of damage will cope (hello, Zyra). If your team is good - ok, you have control thanks to you. Your team is bad - you have damage. What can an enchanter who does not have a carry give? What can a tank with a score of 0/7 without items give against Vayne?
Ngl pyke is supposed to ks ppl with his ult but i often accidentally ks with his Q
@@imkevaneeden6891 i do the same but as swain or taliyah i feel you...i mean idont complain when my q nets me a kill....or 10 😂😂😂😂
@@sourcandy5512 Adc mains hate carry supports because they can never carry from their role. A 0/8 brnad or zyra with just liandrys is better than any 5 0 adc at 2, items.
Ahri support doesn't work into every team comp, but sometimes I will look at my teams damage share, realize "Oh shit we're all AD" and well what do you do? You pick a mage. And I gotta say Ashe Ahri is a VERY dangerous combination, with Poke continuously coming from two sources and Ashe W setting up Ahri for a nice E and if you've been poked a lot and Ahri hits an E on you, you're just straight up dead, no matter how you slice it
Usually, the enemy Pyke has more kills than his whole team combined and the game calls him a "support" :p
Cause most of the kills he has gives your team more gold. He is an income support with tons of cc, he is one of the most unique supports
tons of cc, shares gold, 300 per kill no matter what. hell yes he's a support.
@@doglopmaz actually, whenever pyke ults, he gives himself extra gold, not his team. The teammate just gets the kill gold if pyke got the kill or it gives it all to pyke is the teammate got the kill inside the X. Basically, once pyke is full build, it's as if his execute didn't give any extra gold.
@@cedot2583 You just overcomplicated it unnecessarily... You kill them using ult with an assist from ally? You get kill gold, they get +300. You kill them solo? you get kill gold +300. Even if you're full build, gold is still gold which you can use to maybe switch around your items based on your needs.
"Did I support right?"
The best way to support your team is to prevent damage, killing the enemy prevents them from dealing damage.
*laughts in Karthus*
ive personally rarely ever see the brand/zyra do no dmg, even if they come out of lane 0/5, they end up doing top 3 dmg every time, most time still highest dmg
Yeah, and a Xerath support will have triple the damage of your entire team.
The problem is if carry supports aren't #1 - #2 on the damage chart they didn't do their job.
Brand will always have high damage, but the other team will have tanks/healers you don't. If brand takes off 30% of everyone health just for Soraka to R you've accomplished very little.
It really depends. I've found that Brands usually do more than others on their team if their team is performing worse on average than the enemy team is. Whether Brand himself is contributing to that or not isn't important... if his team is doing well then Brand needs time to get the damage in. Enemies that aren't durable enough or allies that burn cooldowns on overkilling can result in some skewed numbers pretty often. Brand does a lot of damage for sure, but when his ally team has a lot of burst then that can nullify a ton of his damage, especially if they have nobody else worth going on while waiting for Brand's targets to die.
I have a bias against autofill brand supports…. God I hate them as allies and as enemies.
I agree lol. A lot of times mage supp do a lot of damage even most damage than the whole team.
"Toplane is where dreams die."
Toplane mains: just another day
Ah yes, the regular 3 man gank top.
Ah yes, the regular jungle diff.
Ah yes, the regular punching contest with no winners.
Ah yes, everyone else on my team are inting.
Ah yes, a smurf irelia OTP.
Ah yes, a ranged Top laner and no jungle assistance.
Edit: Did I say Irelia OTP? Sorry, I meant smurfs in general
@@olsenfernandes3634 Ah,yes you are just trying to maintain your 9cs\min and deny farm for emeny team,but you hear "enemy quadra kill"
@@daboss4318 So many games I'm just peacefully farming top.
"An ally has been slain." "Enemy double kill" "Enemy triple kill". - FF 15
Toplane more like Toppain
@@olsenfernandes3634 hahah I’m too used to the 3 man ganks. My friend played top for a game and immediately started raging when top, mid and jg yanked him
carry supports aren't troll, but I'd say that they're on average the least fun for the partner adc. I don't mind playing with one because I'm like "now I have someone to cover my bad decisions" and I think APC + Carry Supports are fun when coordinated with premades. I also don't mind playing against them as much as the average person. I think they're novel. But I definitely don't blame people who hate them.
I agree with the apc combo but personally carry supports bug me.
And this comes from a support main. I generally favour enchanters; Sona is my main and champs like Janna and Nami are easy go tos (I kinda suck with lulu tho smh)
I don't find catchers, especially thresh and Leo, and the occasional oddball pick like Jarvan or a niche counter option like Poppy (if the enemy lane is dash heavy).
But I've never enjoyed player carry supports. I just don't find them enjoyable to play, regardless of whether that are "good" or "strong"
@@AtomBacon in soloque i prefer to play carry supports. Its easy to explain....your ADC can suck as hard as he wants. If you play zyra you can 1 shot botline at lvl 6. Your indepened and you dont have to hope your ADC is decent.
In a 5 man premade team i prefer an enchanter.
I prefer carry supports over enchanters as they are less likely to be a backseat coach in my games.
Useful or not, enchanter supports are also far more toxic than tank or carry supports in general and I don't enjoy playing with toxic people.
@@user-nf2xx8kt1h I was going to disagree with you, but then I remembered the times as an enchanter that I buffed, shielded and healed my partner adc and they still got themself killed through poor decisions and how frustrating it can be. So yeah, this checks out
@@AtomBacon For me, those people that take Carry Supports are those who aren't good enough to take the champ to a lane, so they take the easy road and play them as Supports.
But I'm a offmeta scrub, and I can see the usefulness of carry support champions. Like, tradionally, botlane is a ADC as the laner and someone to protect/buff him to make him more of a carry, but you change this relationship to fit other comps.
Instead of having a ADC bot that need protection, you can have someone who can hold the lane alone and take a heavy roamer kind of support like Pyke or my favorite, Predator Rammus, to deal preassure on the whole map. Also, you will drain less XP from your laner, making him even stronger when you come back and help with 2v2.
Or something that a like back in the days is the Carry Support with Support Botlaner. I took MF as a Support and harassed the enemy lane for kills and DH stacks, built lethality, become strong and becomes this midgame carry that is much stronger than the enemy ADC. While the botlaner takes something like a Lux that can farm and help me. It's the same idea of the Senna/Tahm meta.
Or my favorite, you take a Carry Support to fill the Botlaner weakness. Zyra is fucking great to deal pressure, she alone can pressure both enemies in the botlane, so always when I see the support taking a Zyra, I pick someone who can deal tons of damage and carry, but lacks the pressure/safety of a ranged champion, like Thresh ADC or Pantheon Carry. Zyra (or any other mage Supp) pressure them off, so the botlaner can farm safely and just go for allwin that they are strong.
“Wouldn’t it be interesting if we could see all sorts of combinations bot.”
*Juggernaut Rework flashbacks*
I have once played Leona Yuumi botlane
After that game I decided it probably violates the geneva convention and that I shall never do it again.
A friend of mine and me often do Rell Taliyah botlane, just for fun in normals.
It's a very all-in or all-out lane, so usually we don't interact until level 3, and then we all in. Most people so far haven't really been ready for the lvl 3 Taliyah burst. It's a lot of fun.
Morde adc returns, let's send dragon bot
Pyke carries early to mid game. After that he's on a timer. The timer will depend from game to game.
His ult is never bad
He falls off too hard, the change from a fed Pyke from pre-20 minutes to post-20 minutes is astounding, because if your team doesn't know how to end, you essentially lost because you can't tank or provide anything a normal sup could.
All you have is fuck tons of CD,vision score and an ult anyone can flash away from to just mess up your team fight
Dude, in late game Pyke's ult can kill a mage/adc with above 50% hp
@@andressacco1002 In Midgame if he's ahead. In late game it goes back to 30%. His ult dmg is based on level, and he doesn't get the highest lvl in the game being a support, and a roaming one at that. He'll usually be behind a few levels when others are already lvl 18
@@andressacco1002 Also, as the game gets later, that 1 or 2 free hits you can get on a Pyke before he leaves each engage could become lethal to him if his team isn't pressuring them enough
unlike brand velkz and xerath, zyra has tons of utility: catching with root and slows, pealing with her ult, and she has the best vision in the game. all of these require no gold.
Yeah, people still underestimate her really good disengage/peel with her root, vinelashers and her ult. Especially after her slow was buffed. Even if you are behind, the moment you got "some" items or liandries, it doesnt matter, how fast you get bursted. If you get your plants out, they do damage. I got so many post death kills on her.
Also assassins tend to focus you first for some reason instead of the adc. If you get a 1 for 1, they just lost their assassin, but you still got your adc.
brand has decent utility as a debuff spreader with a stun and a slow.
though i will still stand by that he's a better midlaner
The big issue with Zyra is the same with Illaoi. We need time to set up. So if we do the right thing and Set up at Drake for example and the team complies, sure, Zyra is amazing. If the team decides a Fight around the enemies Krugs is more important, you are up creek without a paddle 3 out of 4 times xD
@@siph0r154 Not really? Zyra can store plant seeds and place them where she wants, her passive seeds are just bonuses. Illaoi can't do that and can easily get fucked by tentacle placement.
@@anubis7457 Dude. You are talking to a Zyra Main.
Believe me when I tell you, that the 2 seeds you get are nice to have but not nearly enough to take full advantage of her Kit.
I also said, that the issue is the same, not the champs.
Both rely on spawned little helpers from their passive. The difference is that while Zyra is inconvenienced by having to fight spontaneous, Illaoi is f*cked.
Vars: Theoretically, any champion can work as a carry support
Autofilled Yasuo mains: *Hehehehe*
Support Yasuo DOES. NOT. WORK.
@@PoopDoopMcGoop but he has windwall... 😔
@@kitchensnake649 And a longrange knockup!
K as long as you dont mind my adc yummi. Im not attaching to you.
I used to play Kat support. I still hate myself.
12:41 Well, it doesnt help that everytime a support gets out of line Rito is quick to force them back to the bot lane or be nerfed into oblibion.
same for adc
@@cherno8336 Cough lucian cough vayne.
@@CataStudies you mean Lucian the one who was killed in the midlane last patch and vayne top is more of a meme than a real strat
Alistair top sadge
@@cherno8336 they are still usable there though
As long as they keep me from having to essentially 2v1 and aren’t kill stealing too hard I’m okay with them. I would rather have a good zyra or brand over a shit thresh or nami.
I actually dont mind the ks, because I think that the value of kills is not the gold you obtain, but the exp and gold they don't obtain because of minions.
Also, even if the carry support steals your kills, you probably get a free lane...Loved when Leona jumped on my adc, and I immediatelly turn to her ADC and busrt him down with a Zyra combo, only to turn to the Leona after who couldn't burst my adc
For me it's: 'I don't care about kills. But if I'm in lane don't steal my CS.'
I've had a good games with all sorts of supports. (There was this one Shaco that wondered and trolled the enemy team like crazy xD)
For me I guess it helps that I used to be a sup main before I switched to ADC. Also, I main Ashe and even though I'm an ADC I sorta still have a support mindset.
they will kill still everytime sir, so you can farm :)
@@zidaryn tbh anyone I've met who has at one point mained non-carry supports always plays more team oriented than those who never mained, which I always love to see.
I think an important part about a champion that can successfully play as a carry support still needs to provide some form of utility. Senna, while a marksman (which by nature means she deals damage), has a heal, hard cc, movement speed, and global shield which is what pushes her into the support role/fasting utility carry. She also has a multitude of items that augment various play styles, like her niche moonstone build, or her (currently pretty bad) tank build which allowed her to take an insane amount of damage she otherwise shouldn't be allowed to. Pyke has cc on top of his immense kill pressure, and carry mages all have cc. Lux also has a shield and a slow, but I'm not sure if she really counts as a carry support because it really depends on how you build her.
this
Hell no, evrytime i play whith or against senna/lux its alwais full damage, support my ass their more strong and dangerous that adc, **** them
@@marcoflorian5182 You do realize her heal literally scales with both AD and AP and while AP has better values full AD Senna will still heal more than f.e. tank Senna?
Isn’t lux a mage support?
@@pabloaulestia6310 yes but she can be built like an enchanter if the player so chooses. That's the beauty of lux; she's so versatile
5:40 "youll see a carry support once every 4-5 games"....holy **** that is so wrong for NA, I have not seen anything but carry supports in close to 100 ranked games legit its always xerath, veigar, brand, lux, swain
this, i have 400 ranked games this season in diamond and breaking down my duo partners by top 5: lux 64 lulu 55 xerath 47 brand 40 pyke 40
You wanna explain to me how just in the top 5 champs alone nearly 50% of my fucking supports are carry supports when i main things like kogmaw who literally needs an enchanter to make work? and the only reason that lulu number is so high is because im counting the many times i've begged for lulu/or duod with one. also in norms its even worse, in draft im pretty sure i get a lux support 50-70% of games lol
@@CoffeeKitty. I usually play support and I always pick an enchanter for kog. But if I'm picking before the enemy botlane and my adc doesn't hover anything you're getting whatever support I can slap a lost chapter on 😂
I feel like throwing in my hat on explanation for why I think carry supports are disliked a lot more than other types. There's a few things about carry supports that I think cause issues. 1: Synergies The adc needs to play around them, moreso than any other support type. They're a lot more synergy dependent than other supports. For example, Pyke and Blitzcrank are not great synergies for Caitlyn because dragging the enemy adc towards her is not something she necessarily wants because that gives them the opportunity to hit back (that's not saying Caitlyn's bad with all engage supports or even all hook champions, just that it's a champ type that's inherently a bit more limited in what they can do with her than with a lot of other adcs because of her playstyle). With Blitzcrank, he still has a lot of lockdown and is bulky, so he can help her finish off enemies and he can pull them off of her if needed. With someone like Pyke, however, he doesn't have enough lockdown or bulk to be able to use his hook defensively so he has to be really careful about when he hooks someone since it could easily do more harm than good, his ult makes cait's ult redundant, and him being super close range and caitlyn being super far range doesn't meaningfully feed into each other since caitlyn doesn't benefit from zoning quite as much as other adcs and it will make parallel positioning a lot harder than it needs to be, which results in the adc and support tripping over each other.
Or compare that to Ziggs/Janna. Ziggs cannot get the full effect of Janna's e because it provides AD and he scales solely off AP, but it doesn't matter that Janna's shield doesn't buff him because other than it still being a shield because she has enough disengage to ensure that they're fighting at a comfortable distance for him (and her shield can be used to protect from stray bullets and stuff). Besides that, disengage is always helpful, extra damage isn't. That's an example of things going very wrong, but I'd like to point to Senna. She's got a lot of very good unconventional synergies. Because she's an adc with token utility that doesn't want to farm to get stacks efficiently, that opens the way for a lot of interesting duoqueue comps involving her and a lot of really awkward soloqueue comps. For example, a champion like Jhin does not need a second adc and would benefit a lot more from having extra utility. His token utility and Senna's token utility don't feed into each other. So if a Jhin and a Senna player queue up together, there's a high probability of the support just not being helpful since everything Senna brings to the table is covered and having more of it isn't as valuable as having literally anything else. But the thing that makes it weird is that carry supports can enable certain champions to be played adc that normally couldn't. Senna, for example, synergizes super well with APCs because the botduo will have a lot of magic damage output and physical damage output as well as a mix of token utility brought in from Senna and token utility that's not uncommon in APCs. A big one that comes to mind is Azir (because I play him bot), where the two of them have a strong early, mid, and late game because they can cover for each other if both players know how their abilities synergize and how uniquely that impacts their power spikes (basically, Azir plays like a carry support who just happens to also CS early game while Senna acts like a lane bully early game, Azir and Senna play super aggressively mid game without departing too much from each other, and then they both play like hypercarries lategame). Obviously SennAzir is not meta because Azir, but that's the best personal example I can give of the power of duoqueuing with a carry support. Also good luck communicating any of that to your soloqueue partner if you try it there. Here's the issue; a carry support could be potentially either completely useless or completely broken depending on which champion their partner locks in. There are some adcs with that issue too, mainly thinking of Kalista, where her support kind of needs to be a bulky engage support if they want to make much headway, which causes Kalista/Janna to be pretty bad while Kalista/Thresh is very fucking good (but only really if Kalista and Thresh are duoqueue and communicating, then it's kneecapped by not being able to communicate and coinflipped by soloqueue partner being some rando). It just happens more with carry supports because they need to fulfill certain conditions to be able to carry, which can be made redundant by either too closely replicating something in their adc's kit and/or requiring the adc to be able to do something that not all adcs are great at doing. You don't run into that issue as much with catchers and enchanters because they have so much utility that they can still provide meaningful help to the adc and team as a whole even if certain abilities become a lot less helpful than they'd normally be.
2: Playstyle
Carry supports can vary quite a bit, but the thing I appreciate most about them is that they're very good at bullying the enemy team off contesting you for cs or trades. They're kind of like reverse-wardens in that they make your territory so unsafe for the enemy team that it alleviates pressure off of you. That's kind of why I don't like playing against Zyra. She's very good at making it hard to move around as Thresh to get a clean engage without getting pelted repeatedly. With the SennAzir thing I mentioned, Azir has the ability to flush the enemy team out of their own wave using his sand soldiers, which lets Senna bully them out of lane early. Even ignoring that I keep plugging SennAzir into my argument, you can effectively be dealing with a lane bully and a late game scaler in the same lane. Alternatively, you have Pyke, who probably wants to engage after the adc's won a few trades.
Probably the best way to think about it is not to divide botlane into adc and support and more as two characters, between the two of them, someone wants the majority of kills, someone wants the majority of cs, and the damage/utility budget needs to be divided some way between them. Generally speaking, adc is the role you want to funnel the majority of the cs and kills into because they need to scale while the support does not need to scale. The adc provides mostly damage and a usually negligible amount of utility while the support provides mostly utility and a usually negligible amount of damage. The amount of damage to utility budget can mess around. Kalista has a lot of utility for an adc but not as much damage, Lux can deal quite a bit of damage but doesn't have quite as much utility as some of her peers, for example. There's a range, but fucking with it too much causes the character to become unsuitable for adc or support (depending on where the devs were aiming), so some of the justifications begin to feel a bit forced. Like, the reason justified for not just always playing Senna adc was because her passive scales better when she doesn't cs (which can become an issue if you're support isn't a CSer, which a lot aren't) or you get a support who will probably just give up on you halfway through the game and become the adc. Pyke's bounty on his ult also feels like it was just there to justify giving a support an execute. Either way, carry supports have super varied playstyles compared to stuff like catchers and enchanters, which sounds like a good thing until you remember that bot lane is very team work reliant in a game that doesn't give you the tools for proper communication (and probably shouldn't considering how toxic the playerbase is, like, if voicechat became a widely used thing is soloqueue, I probably would not be able to play the game). So, if your adc or support has a playstyle that you do not understand, you're not going to be able to play the game properly. Carry supports kind of make up for this by some of them being able to carry the game anyways, but that just frustrates the adc further. This is also the reason why seeing an off-meta pick for adc or support (that isn't coordinated with a friend) bugs me a lot more than seeing something so off meta in any other role, because unless both the adc and support are in on it and understand exactly what's happening, you are destined to fail regardless on the viability of that build.
Basically, Xerath and Vel'koz don't play like Zyra who doesn't play like Senna who doesn't play like Pyke and that's an issue because it makes it forces the adc to adapt their playstyle to fit one champion. Like, you can approach having Thresh, Leona, Blitzcrank, and Alistar support in similar fashions to each other. You probably want to let them engage and make sure the wave is thin enough for their skillshots to not get blocked. You can also approach your support being Lulu, Yuumi, or Janna somewhat similarly. You win trades until you can all in while your enchanter keeps you alive and then buffs the all in. But you can't treat Zyra support anywhere close to how you'd treat Pyke support or Senna support. With Zyra you probably want to let her set up a zone of control around the minions then try to freeze the wave, with Senna you want to force the enemies outside of their minions and let her chase them off from there (I also like to sometimes give her to canon depending on the circumstances), with Pyke you want him to be the bread to your damage sandwich.
The other thing is that Carry Supports singlehandedly turn botduo into a feast or famine comp, when it otherwise would not have been that, which would annoy some adc players.
3: Fighting
I hold the belief that every character in League is going to garner a hate following just by virtue of someone being competent enough at them to be oppressive, not even counting reasons why someone might score valid criticism of them. But carry supports, by their nature of being able to deal a ton of damage, means that the adc and support have to successfully shut down two carries instead of one (you can't really shut down a support but you can definitely stop a carry from getting to the point where they can carry). Like, if you fuck up against an adc and non-carry support, your team will have to deal with one fed carry. Depending on how well the rest of your team does, this can be recovered from (depending on elo), but not really against two fed carries. This isn't helped by the fact that a lot of carry supports can be played like lane bullies. This is further not helped by how much less homogenized carry supports are from catchers and enchanters. Botduo's already a complicated role even when you can expect the enemy adc to usually be a marksman and the support to not hard-carry and do one of a few things in one of a few specific ways. So, being too individualistic can make it difficult to adapt to. That difficulty can apply to the enemy adc too, unless they're a premade.
== My Thoughts ==
I typically play pre-made botduo with friends, so I appreciate how varied these champions can be because it gives me more options to think "what's a good botduo we could make." But in solo queue, they seem like a headache because you have to dedicate memory space to playing with and against each individual one as adc and you can't generalize, which just makes your life more complicated. They're typically pretty novel, but conformity is kind of the only thing keeping duo queue from being too OP in botduo and it's the main thing keeping the role of adc and support from becoming so complicated that it becomes unfun for most players. I think what Riot should probably do is subdivide carry supports into bully, executioner, and trade supports. Bully supports would be supports like Zyra who support the adc by bullying the enemy botduo through use of zoning and poke, executioner supports would be supports like Pyke who effectively just decrease the enemy's max HP and pressure them to recall earlier than usual, and trade supports would be supports like Xerath who make it harder for the enemy to itemize against the sources of incoming damage, make it harder for the enemy to win trades because now there are two sources of damage, and typically have poke for late-game. That categorization would also probably rebrand a few catchers and enchanters, like Lux would probably be considered an Executioner. That might be a bit too much subdividing, but dividing things like that would give better language to discuss Carry Supports and would help make them feel less arbitrary and could get people to think "ok, this is an executioner, so I know that they'll be looking to start and finish fights while I do the in-between damage" rather than going "pyke stole my job because he gets all the kills." Whether or not a support is fun to play, there really shouldn't be that many supports where you, as the ally adc, have to make individual exceptions for (and that goes the other way around too, like I think it's not great for the champion that Kalista restricts the viable number of supports for her, it's fine in pro play, but not great for solo queue).
The idea of a support that threatens to scale as hard as the adc also doesn't make sense to me because you can't have that without putting some serious contrivances in their kit, like how Pyke's ult shares gold or how Senna's passive gives her more stacks if she doesn't cs. That's definitely a frustrating part about some of them for some people.
I'm personally down with more wacky supports since I like things that are complicated, flexible, and require a lot of teamwork and planning to pull off, but the more complicated botlane gets (either through weird adcs like samira or weird supports like even just yuumi existing), the less appealing it will get to solo queue. I think the most hated botlaners are the ones that just deviate too much from the norm. Samira, Yuumi, Senna, etc. and the least played botlaners are the ones that deviate too much from the norm while also being too team and/or skill reliant like Kalista and Zilean. I guess another way of saying it is that a bot or support champion you have to make an exception for will have three times the effect as a mid, jungle, or top champion you have to make an exception for because three people will have to be laning with that exception and playing around it rather than just one. Carry Supports are exceptions, so I think subdividing and standardizing them will help with their role in the game and improve player reception to them just by refining the language (now you can say "I hate executioners" instead of "I hate carry supports").
I am a Swain main and hes also considered a carry support, but I see it as someone who CAN carry when needed while also providing engage and support when not needed. Besides, with how early game focused the game has become, most of the time, a Swain providing a lot of early game damage and lock down would mean a bigger advantage overall. I get that ADC's are salty they arent the ones getting all the kills but any kill is worth is since the enemy loses gold and experience while your adc can still CS and will 100% guaranteed have an advantage in the 2v2. I see it as a win to go carry supports because they excel at what the game has been prioritizing. In my opinion ADC's are almost completly useless in todays meta. Id rather have 2 carry supports with high damage and lock down early vs an adc who takes forever to get online and or requires a huge lead to be able to maintain said lead. Once a swain gets fed its hard to reverse that since hes a high dps tank with cc in the mid game, while when a cait gets fed, shes still just a squishy adc with lackluster cc and disengage with moderate damage mid game. I see your point but in my opinion this is just trying to cling on to a previous meta through stubbornness.
@@frappessb8246 That's a fair point.
I agree and I’d like to offer my two cents on it as an adc main. As greedy as this sounds, carry is in the name of adc. And it feels really, really unfun and clunky to play a damage class with no utility trying to play around and support a brand or senna who’s gonna be doing more damage than you. It puts you into a psudo support role yourself, especially because they are gonna be a lot stronger than you until your 3 item spike. To put it into more broad terms, when you have a carry support you no longer become the “adc” or “carry” as the role has been defined ever since it came into prominence and a meta started to form, for the entire history of the bot lane duo it’s been about the support playing around the adc and trying to get them ahead, now the meta has completely shifted to roam supports and carry supports that leave adcs in the dust because they either have to solo lane while their support roams 1v2 (or 1v3 if enemy jungler has eyes), or they have to be thrown into the psudo support role I mentioned earlier where a class that already has extremely little agency on early game gets even less.
That brings me on to the main problem of the adc, and unsurprisingly the support role recently. The meta just isn’t enjoyable no matter what it is. If we think back to ardent meta where kog Lulu was basically 100% pick or ban, no one enjoyed that meta because bot lane was either pick enchanter or lose. As I touched on above, engage supports have shifted into playing an extremely roam heavy style that leaves their adc in a really bad spot to get frozen on and punished extremely hard by either getting poked out for staying in xp range and eventually dove or slow pushed into and dove 3v1 by enemy jungle. And poke supports which are mostly all carry supports aren’t exactly the most fun because the adc loses all agency over the lane.
In retrospect I haven’t explained why adcs get pushed into a support role/play style when a carry support is locked in and I’ll try to explain that from my perspective. Say for example your support locks in senna, their main objective is to poke and get souls for mist stacks. That’s fine, until you realize that the adc has no actual way to assist with that other than wave control, and said wave control is to help senna get her stacks, so the lane more becomes (from adc perspective) freeze wave while senna tries to poke and hope to god she doesn’t get hit by Leona e because I have no peel. Which is fucked in and of itself because the adc class is not designed to peel. The lane entirely shifts around playing around the support and what the support wants to do instead of playing around the carry like what traditionally has happened for most of leagues lifespan.
Said lane set ups also lead to ungodly amounts of toxicity if that support doesn’t get the advantages they need in lane (such as senna having a fair amount of stacks for team fights so she can stay out of range of divers). If that doesn’t happen, then she is not only fodder, but she’s providing nothing to her team other than basically tanking an entire rotation of the enemy mid laners spells. And then when that happens, that leaves adc who has very little utility themselves basically alone to try to peel themselves away from the bruiser and assassin meta we’ve been knees deep in for the entire season.
To summarize, i think more diversity in more roles is a great thing that league needs, but it needs to be in more healthy outlets that doesn’t ruin the play styles and integrity of other roles. Riot needs to provide more incentives for carry supports to still give their adc the keys to carry the game because adcs can’t do anything other than damage without overloading the absolute shit out of carry supports.
Hopefully a Blitzcrank or Pyke will know better than to pull someone towards her instead of him. She has great range and if they don't know how to use it or don't understand the carry vs carry matchup then they probably should learn it after the game!
Magic dmg, aoe & especially zone control are routinely lacking in soloq games anyway. I’d say there is plenty of merit to playing velkoz & zyra, not so much their more selfish versions (xerath & brand), which are too feast/famine to rely on. I’m torn on senna & pyke, on one hand they open up more diverse botlanes when paired with non-marksmen; but more often than not they’re just auto-fillers who flame & let the adc die…
I like all good carry supports, they keep the ADC's ego in check. The amount of entitlement ADC's get is crazy.
I like playing senna but I'm not autofilled support. If I see a lane that can't answer her poke I'm locking her in and fat stacking souls off them so I can have agency in case my adc shits itself when it's time to step up
great choice of topic.
i would like to mention, sadly some of these champs are "less than stellar" midlaner and shine better in support. i genuinely love to play Zyra mid but i just cant compete😥😭
thanks for quality content. keep up the good work. wish you well.
Hello :)))) I really liked this vid- well- like always- and I'm happy that you talk about supports like- in a way that they too can carry the game- even like Thresh/Blitz/Nautilus- not like that they are only there to save their adc or someone- and as you may have suspected I am a support main. I really appreciet your work. Keep on doing what you like- amazing work
I got carried more often by support that adc
Most carry supports have better early/mid game than most adcs
@@dennisv1882 that is true and i feel like late game doesnt matter because game end too fast or bullied late game champ cant do damage because everyone oneshots them nowadays
"carry supports bring alot of dmg but no healing or shield"
me: "let me show you the aery fond of life ardent pyke 'support'"
Basically Senna...
@@takojiwild847 With reseting true executes.
I'm playing wildrift and locked ez for adc and someone just picked a jarvan IV support..
The only thing I don't understand is where are my shields coming from.Everytime jarvan uses E on the enemy there always pops a shield on me..
@@albertocuartero9584 maybe aery with the flag
Pyke doesn't have any non-item way to activate Summon Aery for shielding. He could use Guardian, but I'm not sure if it would be practical on him. If Summon Aery worked on him somehow(like it worked on Ezreal before he got his latest rework), then I suppose it would be fantastic for him. Although, Aery is still viable on champs that can't use it defensively. It's just frowned upon and might get ignorant people to ragequit. Its damage is more consistent than comet even though it's not as threatening and it's certainly no hidden crowd control like Zilean's Q when it doesn't stun. But comet is. Also, the fact that it can have such a short cooldown means it's actually pretty impactful on certain champions(the main one that comes to mind is Kayn, but it works fine on stuff like Teemo and Caitlyn also). The main reason I'd take it on Kayn is because it allows him to in combination with Scorch get incredibly fast transformations compared to other builds, but the overall damage output is fine if you have an enchanter helping you(or alternatively, you're just a tanky red). Just don't expect them to take you seriously 100 percent of the time when you're running around with a keystone they think is only decent for enchanters... You can take it on champs like Jayce and Braum(Braum has really weird scaling at least until this newest patch Aery is easily top 3 best keystones for him since Titanic Hydra is so good on him...I've actually been procrastinating to play the preseason changes but it looks very interesting and it's about time I spend some time on that) and they certainly are no enchanters.
Your Videos are so good, you deserve way way way more attention. This level of quality with this upload rate is just insane. Keep up the great work
as a senna main, i support the team by death of my opponet and im usually considered as a 2nd carry
As a support main, having a pocket Senna is very helpful for games where I doubt my team’s structure.
As a Senna main I fully agree, if my ADC sucks I put on my big boy pants and go to carry, if my ADC is decent then congrats, after BT and IE I'll go full AP so you basically will get a healer+shield enchanter.
I miss the days where adc's were the real threat, and not every single champ on enemy team. Thats why anyone plays braum, who can protect adc's against goredrinkers jarvan, irelias, talon, rengars and burst mages and yasuos and yones, and amumus and xethaths ults, and samiras spin, and viegos champ overall, and invisible twitchs and evelyns with yummi. ITS IMPOSSIBEL EVERY CHAMP ONE SHOTS THESE DAYS, THATS WHY YUMMI SORAKA AND LULU ARE OP
I really like playing Xerath and Senna, but I try to pick them when they work with my team. When I see no cc on the other lanes I usually go back to more convetional supps. The main reason why I like them is that I too often find myself in a situation where my adc does not apply their damage even when I have them shielded and the enemy cced right in front of us. That way I dont rely on my random teammates to deal the damage. That ofc is a bigger problem in lower elo, but they are the reason I finally was able to push my winrate above 50% and start climbing out of bronze and silver.
My experience on why ppl dont like them is that they can't hadle being carried by a Support. They see themselfs entitled to revied all the kills and praise. And that is the dynamic that you also described at the end 12:35
I love playing Senna support, especially in solo q. I play supportive and asses my ADC’s skills. If they don’t start carrying, I pick up the torch and carry till they can.
I always ban senna lol
my best friend is a xerath otp. we play bot together and as much as i love him, there is nothing more demoralizing as an adc than seeing him have twice as much damage than me on graphs after the game
Its not your fault man, blame riot for making adc such a bad pick for todays meta.
Just play serpahine apc and you'll weird great results
Vars, I would love if you did a video about Mages in the bot lane, not as supports, but as the laner. The role is still commonly called "ADC" despite the fact that Swain, Veigar, and Cassiopeia have dominated the role in terms of win rate for the past five or six patches.
Yet if you lock in one of these champions, despite the statistics showing how powerful they are, you're still liable to get trolled by your support buying a Doran's instead of a support item. (Happened to me on more than one occasion 😠)
I just think that it's an interesting phenomenon worth discussing.
Yeah, that's why I always prefer to refer bot as Botlaner rather than ADC. I know that the ADC/Enchanter relationship is stronger, but damm, I have much more success playing a Marksman in the sololane and a mage as a Botlaner than the other way around.
Like, ADC are good at dealing tons of constant DPS on one enemy, while mages are great at AOE, but people supose the DPS guy are good at 2v2 while the AOE guy is good at x1? Heck, there are 2 people bot, it much easier to land a skillshot at something hahah.
@@v1c341 On the other hand, ADC don't have much mobility and are very weak, so leaving them on a solo lane without protection is kind of a coin flip, but mages have a lot of cc and disruption to keep enemies on check, so that's more reliable to be safe alone.
Yeah the term creates problems like ziggs adc is actually ziggs apc
Lowkey agree with your take. I'm also the guy who plays Senna and Xerath for support, but I play just as much Thresh and Nautilus
i used to play Camille Irelia with my friend in the bot lane. it worked out ridiculously well for the most part. this was before, during and after the double relic shield bot lanes too
I think another interesting topic you could´ve touched upon is support items. Riot has been funneling more and more gold into the support´s pockets through support items, both by directly increasing the gold it gives and removing the huge gold sink it used to mean to pugrade your support item, so it´s easier than ever to play carry roles in support since you actually get gold.
I main Anivia support!!! W brings consistent value and often blows flashes immediately
ok but bear with me here.
Grab a friend to do enchanter or even lux support for you, and play Anivia APC. This shit is busted, I tell ya.
you and chimes are the two channels i've allways expected for
i started playing LoL again after 8 long years of break and i was always Support Main (Leona / Nami and Janna as my favorits) now i have tried Senna and must admit its a blast. I love the playstyl of her its so much fun even more then the traditional Picks. A friend of mine has joined in for the first time playing LoL. We play together on Bot Lane as ADC (he plays Jinx or Miss Fortune) and im Senna its a very fun combo!
I mean riot is making another one. Also you could have mentioned Lux on this category. Also the support item is very underrated. It gives a lot of gold.
arguably a bit much
It caps now, though. So your gold generation falls off mid/late.
It just gives a thousand gold and it doesn't give you more gold.
@@OnyxOblivion With the early to midgame being the most important part of a game, and supports, carry or otherwise, being designed to cap at 3 items max (most of their items are cheaper by a longshot), thats a mute point, as rarely supports get 4 or 5 items, or even go past level 14
"Who knows, maybe Warwick Support is sleeper OP..."
Bro, you just opened Pandora's Box 😳
As a ww main i feel obligated to test it. With a fiend adc tho, dont wanna get flamed too hard.
@@jaredschroeder7555 Warwick support?
Godspeed brother
@@jaredschroeder7555 if you do it with a jinx you get a laser sight for her ult on low people
@@swolegolisopod7340 honestly i was thinking itd be fun with ashe to get my slow butt in, or some kind of weird bruiser lane like old renek leo or whatever that renek lane was.
@@swolegolisopod7340 CEASE THIS MADNESS ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!
A friend of mine tried Mordekaiser support with support items once. It’s actually a good pick if you think about it: cc on E, with the heal and shield power of the support items your W makes you immortal and your Ult can just take an enemy and make the teamfight a 4v4 where you decide who is missing. I think the reason it didn’t work was that I couldn’t play anyone except Yuumi back then and endet up playing Neeko Adc.
the thing with carry supports... soloq is a mess, playing lulu and seeing your adc go 0 and 6 means you dont get to play the game, and are partialy blamed, while if you play brand, your adc can go 0 and 100, if you dish out your damage you get praised. but in the same time adc feels like they dont have a support when they see a brand, and are more prone to trying to 1 vs 2 and dying, feeling like a nautilus would of made the match much easier, and than they blame the supp.. a never ending loop
Carry supports are a byproduct of 400 years champions like Yone, Samira, Viego and such. Nowadays champions have so much self agency that sometimes, as a primerelly enchanter main, I feel useless and like an excess. Why does a 9/11 Yasuo need me when he already reached his 10 death powerspike and has bought Imortal Shieldbow and Bloodthirster? Mage supports got pushed out of mid because of those degenerate skirmishers and assassins. Supports were the most selfless class and position for the longest time now, and after so many new carry 1v9 champions that do everything, supports needed an upgrade. Pyke has CC, dashes, camouflage, damage and sustain, giving him enough to take care of both himself and others. Senna has heal, snare, team camouflage and speedup, shield and imense range also giving her the necessary tools to do what everyone else has been doing for the last 4 or more seasons. Fighters and assassins became unstoppable war machines at the expense of supports, tanks, marksman and mages, and to keep up, they got the carry arsenal too, because otherwise, they would become irrelevant.
Only true adc mains feel the pain when their “carry” support runs it down and loses the bot lane before 3 minutes on the clock. You don’t even get the chance to CS anymore.
That's why I play senna adc. I can just heal myself and safely farm and scale.
I hate when I get a random Pyke cuz I never know if he's carrying my ass by killing everyone before they kill me, or just forcing me to engage in fights I cannot win and then flaming when we both die or I decide to embrace my turret and just stay there, cuz he's gonna keep diving into danger and clearing the waves before they reach to me in the process.
The coin usually falls in the latter, I hate Pyke mains.
@@sunnydargonnel as a Pyke main when i play support, i know your pain and can understand
Well guys, you also enjoy when we shape up and win you the lane 3 seconds after the first minions clash.
Because, let's be real, you ADcs hate an auto-filled pyke about as much as we supports groan when we see an Auto-Filled ADC farming worse than we do.
I live in Bronce and Silver mainly. And Fact is, if my ADC desn't look like they can cut it, just bust out my Main (Zyra) and just try winning that way. Doesn't always work out, but at least the first 10 minutes are fun instead of me being oom at lvl 2 because my ADC cant dodge and farm at the same time...
God I feel that so hard. Bad supports are why I dropped samira for Sivir in ranked. I can just let them do their dumb shit and watch at a safe distance
I really like your JRPG music you use in your vids.
I play a lot of Shen support. Its so satisfying to block the last auto attack of a killing blow with shens w. Shen also does a lot of damage early on and is basically a 2nd jungler by level 6.
12:57 funny cuz happy chim noises recently made a video about it XD
i main enchanters support and i can tell you, for having tried mid with brand/xerath/velkoz, we cant do anything against any of the fighter or assassin we found in mid. everything he said in the vid is true and im fed up with adc saying that we steal kills or dont trust a mage support because its ''not a support'' lol
adc mains (99%) cry abt every type of support that aren't enchanter/peel
Can you talk about Fasting senna? I think that is a interesting strategy and weird to see, nice video as always.
Anyone noticed the Pantheon at 1:44 placing that clutch ward on the blast cone to prevent the Lee Sin from escaping?
2:15
Cryo and his fanbase:allow us to introduce ourselves
(Granted it's not burst mage levels of damage,But hey.He's a "support")
Enchanters are a freaking coin flip in league of legends, you can't depend on that your team is gonna do good, maybe this apply more to high elo, but on low elo carry supports are way better than passive supports
If you think that then you’re just not good on enchanter supports. And that’s not a diss, different people mesh with different champ styles. Your whole shtick as an enchanter is to help and enable your team to play better and be stronger than they otherwise would. As an enchanter you stack that coin flip so that it’s no longer a coin flip. If you honestly think playing enchanters is a coin flip then you’re just bad on enchanters my brother.
But enemy adc is equally bad so if you do a good job you will win most games. You are not there to win 90% but about 55%-60% to climb. This is game about mistakes and who makes less mistakes wins. Tank/enchanter supports are more forgiving which is most important in low elo because people make a shittone of mistakes. And unless you are under 100 games or super high winrate you deserve the rank you have. So you are not any better than your teammates pr enemies.
Support is not to carry like goalkeeper is not to score goals in football. If you don't understand this just change your role, but i can guarantee you if you look at the game from the different angle you will have more fun from it so will your teammates.
The past few days I have been mainly playing Lux apc with morg supp, ziggs/veigar apc with swain supp, and taliyah apc with pyke supp. I love playing offmeta botlane :) And I have many a times played rengar supp, katarina supp, yasuo supp, veigar supp, swain supp, malphite supp, and many more. and also have played ivern rengar, katarina apc, yasuo adc, rengar adc, and others. :)
Ww support was a pick once in a blue moon like GP support when they weren't reworked but it was niche as best due to them not being able to provide much back then.
Ww's tools now may give him more engage as well as early game pressure but he has a lack of stickiness because he needs set up to be used well in the bot lane
8:25 Sorry, but I think you have the matchup triangle backwards. Albeit, it's not a hard rule and there are examples of it being backwards at times. Enchanters beat mage/carry supports, because the onus is on the carry supports to take action, most enchanters scale extremely well and are best suited to keep scaling carries safe. Engage/kill lanes dominate the early game against enchanters, allowing them freedom to act throughout the map and they're usually very strong at ganking or early skirmishes. Mage/Carry supports can poke down engage supports safely meaning they're heavily favoured once an all-in presents itself.
Naturally, it's a very grey area since the lane partner and some champion's kits just naturally invert the matchup. Morgana beats engage supports easily and can act as a safe kill lane against enchanters, but can't fight carry supports very well. Zyra is also very strong against champions coming to her, like Leona, but struggles with Blitzcrank or Thresh.
I would disagree with the x beats y rock-paper-scissors notion entirely, as bot lane has many more variables than other lanes and as a result it's all very matchup dependant.
Carry supports are a nice change of pace from dedicated healers, enchanters and wardens.
Sure you can't defend them as much, but somehow it feels good to dish out dmg to enemies out of place
Well, they can't engage on me and my ADC, if they are constantly low health. Its more of a preemptive defense.
watching this vid queuing for my 3rd pyke game in a row and continuing to take all of the kills is fun
I used to play Jarvan and Leblanc support long before Pyke and Senna, it was so much fun
Warwick support might work really well: You got really good engage with R and Q+E. Peel with E (or even R). Enormous roaming potential with W. Your passive is just more suited for sololaning / jungling.
Yes yes
Kassadin is a good supp too
ah yes engage only level 6.
laning phase can go fuck itself :3.
you are asking to get poked down by an enchanter and the enemy adc
I started the game playing only ww support for ages. Ton of fun
Personally I feel like there is no support triangle- at least not one that works well. Enchanters don't beat out Carry supports because in the early game they are just as squishy as their adc and lack the items and their full kit to properly disengage/sustain through damage. They also struggle into engage supports that can lock them down and kill them and they cannot match the same roam pressure.
There are of course certain match ups like Janna into Leona or Rell that the enchanter easily beats out and Lulu into a lot of carry picks as the main engage gets polymorphed and then can't do much.
But generally the rule of thumb is in laning phase outside of a few matchups enchanters generally lose out as they cannot easily establish lane pressure or kill pressure. A good carry support generally out pressures enchanters but can't go toe to toe with tank supports but depending on the carry they could be a better pick than a tank or a much worse pick than the enchanter. Tank supports are easily the rulers of bot lane being bad into only a few matchups and generally are countered by other tank supports.
When laning phase finishes, Carry supports have either established a lead they can snowball and win the game with but assuming an Enchanter support has safely made it to their first item this is when the Enchanter pick becomes more relevant as they can essentially neutralise the Carry support by making it much harder to get picks. If they have managed to be more effective than the tank support they can dissuade engages by poking out the enemy or killing an important member the tank couldn't protect in time. Meanwhile the enchanter vs engage support gets more volatile as if the enchanter's team is ahead they can essentially position to take over the game with their fed teammate or make their team pretty untouchable, if they are even then it's kinda skill based slightly in favour of the tank support, and if they are behind there's no chance.
I actually agree the support triangle doesn't exist that's just someone that doesn't play bottom/support trying to make sense of something they don't understand which is what happens on UA-cam when people talking about a game want to keep making more videos for more content for YT algo so they continue on the path to popularity. It's called grinding the job i guess and the lack of quality can creep up because of the social pressure that the platform puts on the video makers.
I think imperial mandate is a great option for sups like this when you are behind, you will have a good amount of damage for low prices and can help your team
I like to play aurelion sol in the supp xD the stun of the Q and the slow with the passive+rylai is funny to play, also he do a hell of damage
Senna, who you consider a 'carry support', is far from a selfish pick. It is true that it is possible for her to dish out more damage than the ADC, but seeing as every part of her kit can be used to protect allies she can be considered a true support- heal, stun, ghosting/ms, shielding. Even her glacial augment build applies slow. She also has many builds which can include items that decrease the enemies armour etc, if you aren't going kraken as that's more like senna adc..
The reason i love Zilean is becaused he is a specialist, and one that is carry for the first minutes, then scales pretty great in utility, a perfect balance between mage support and enchanter with play potencial. You dont really need and enchanter/ traditional adc, and people dont get it, but what you really need is sinergy in the botlane and good team comp, if both are meet, you can play whatever the fuck you want
I initially started playing Brand support during the height of the Ardent Censer meta, when you think you were trolling if you didn't pick Janna or Lulu. Usually I preferred tank supports but we never had enough damage and I was just sick of all the healing and shields. Needed more dakka, and Brand and Zyra got me through.
I haven't been feeling it lately, though. In games we win, I end up just providing some additional damage. In games I lose, I seem to be the only source of damage, and it's not enough.
Me and my friend have been doing anivia adc with viego support for a few months. It is so fun to play. With everfrost, anivia has lockdown, and viego has the execute. Anivia has early game poke, while viego has late game durability. We have also done fiddlesticks and ivern bot for obvious reasons. And of the newer ones we've tried is garen and pantheon.
level 2 powerspike do be going brrr
I recently found out that in DotA there is something called an active support. In that case the support and the Carry share farm. Let's see when this will become more common in lol. Fasting senna ADC is a step in that direction but not a common pick at the moment. It would be interesting to see more such picks, like fasting veigar APC.
Senna is a very specific case where it can work because of her passive. Each soul is equal to about 50 gold, which is like 2-3 minions. And you get about 1-2 stacks per wave. It also gives you additional time to stack up your support item, since you're not worried about farming. A Q+AA trade with Senna (assuming you have 2 sickle charges) is about 90g. Combined with the minion souls, you're making equal to, if not more effective gold in lane as fasting Senna over normal ADC Senna.
Well, you'd only be able to do that if you duo queue bot lane. Most league players probably aren't going to learn how to play adc with half farm
Well we've already seen something like this in sona lux and the sorts
Yeah, this can happen but not everyone's nice enough to understand what you're trying to do and well, Dota 2 has a lot of casuals that will rage quit for no apparent reason, let alone doing something like this. The important take away here is that Dota 2 doesn't give much to supports to help them deal with the pressures of lane supporting. That's why taking turns doing zone control is so effective and underestimated, nobody wants to risk their ally baby raging and people usually do worse strategies because they're seen as 'more diplomatic' strategies. It's kind of disgusting TBH. I like that in LoL I can play Veigar for a couple months in support and then bam I literally single-handedly made Veigar support a thing due to the new LoL sorting in drafts. Dota 2 really needs to learn to do more to improve the quality of life for the solo queue playing IMHO. I've never really struggled to have fun in solo queue in LoL. It's just that sometimes I struggle to find a fun game, that's a matchmaking problem though, not a community health problem. Things like getting matched with duos in solo ranked or getting a party of 4 on your team in normal draft...those are matchmaking problems that LoL refuses to recognize but at least they try to deal with toxicity. And that makes it the more tolerable game for me. Also, Dota 2 has this thing where the lowest level champion is supposed to be able to buy an item to gain more experience to level up and catch up but what ends up happening is they don't have gold and someone less needing of the item buys the limited stock item and they get left further behind. And fighting over couriers... a lot more room for toxic players to sabotage teams there, so many things to do.
I think the bottom lane should be reworked entirely. The "ADC" role is the only role where only one class can play without major downsides (it's super fan to play APCs, but the role is not designed for them, so it's pretty hard to make out), and the support role should be more diversified as well. I like to play Seraphine APC with a full utility build when my support takes a high damage champion, like Senna or Pyke. The "ADC" protects the support, so the support can do the damage your team needs. You can think this is a very bad strategy, but it's actually good. If more marksman could play in the support or in the mid lane, and if more mages and enchanter could play in the ADC role (yes, I'm thinking in Sona or Soraka "ADC"), the bottom lane could be so much more fun to play
u should learn how to play
I played Garen adc and I won the game for the team.
very instructive
what is the background song in the begining ? i remember it from somewhere...
I think the specialization of bot laners in Esports plays a huge role here. Every time something off-meta sneaks its way into the bot lane it is nerfed specifically for what made it good in the bot lane.
Esports teams lose there minds every time a bruiser or melee becomes meta briefly bot, and those highly paid specialists aren't flexible enough to play the off-meta stuff. Thus interesting picks are nerfed.
for example remember urgot bot, he was nerfed to the ground after that
@@A2Lettuce yeah because or you play him or you dont play bot
I often get shit for this but they’re really the only supports I enjoy for more than very occasional games
Plus it’s the only position you can actually do shit with Xerath and Vel’koz
Xerath jhin bot duo w a friend is unironically an amazing time because both ults can provide vision for the other
thank you for the idea ww sup sounds actually good q and w for engage e for cc and less damage and r for more cc and some damage
Brand needs 1 item to carry he's just this broken
Then gets one shotted by the 0/3 talon mid
@@AverageFr cc wants to have a word with you
@@xnith3488 Whose gonna cc talon? The support brand? Oh wait hes dead
@@AverageFr killing brand usually entails suiciding to him
I stopped playing carry supports for one reason: EGO. Players do not care that you are a 20/2 Xerath Support, they won't peel you neither will they listen to pings or calls because you are "just the support". It was fun playing 500 Brand Games Last season but it made me realize how pathetic League players are most of the time.
yup, can't remember the last time adc used his heal to save my suppor ass.
As a mage supp main, thank you for talking abt this!
Senna plays like an enchanter and poke but can also become the secondary ADC or main ADC which is why I love playing her. Her items are also very flexible. If my team has already enough damage, I'd switch to pure enchanter items and still be able to dish out a lot of damage while also "supporting" with heals, shield, and root. If I do get into a team that has a weaker ADC, I kinda step up and become the secondary ADC. Very versatile.
I've always loved going off-meta stuff in Normals, always experimenting with new picks and shaking up strategies whenever I can, be it with a friend or even on my own. Discovering something new that is actually has some weight in the meta right now is both exciting and often confusing. It's hard to say that the new Full Attack Speed Gragas that you decided to do is super OP until you try it out in 10 more games and actually get some data. Could the win be a fluke? Could it just be that matchmaking had a bad time? It's hard to say. But finding that new spice or that new hidden gem in League is always fun.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to get back to my ADC Warwick and my Jungle Soraka builds.
You want a Leona top to go with that? Hell if I'm feeling fancy I can go Leona mid even
@@lucykitsune4619 Would love to have more ideas and players to play with using these wacky, crazy ideas!
@@BioticZombieWolf Full tank Pyke
I love off meta i played off meta builds on all my mains and i can share alot of them with u!
@@shikikankillzone4239 sadly u cant cuz his passive doesnt let u get more hp
Call me greedy or whatever but if whenever I have a carry support that isn’t senna or pyke if they do well and get most of the kills then I feel invalidated as an ADC and can’t really do anything and if they don’t do well then we lose the game because bot lane got fed and there was nothing that could be done as an ADC. Unfortunately ADC is just a really greedy role because if you don’t properly scale in time you become useless for your team and carry supports in both succeeding and failing increase that notion to me
I would not call you greedy but many adc mains are just insanely bad in playing safe or neutral and always rely on the supports to "feed" them kills with a silver spoon. But that notion with the new items and the assassin meta is completly over now. You have to just survive and last hit that is the job of a botlane carry. Not to 1 v 9 because that is the midlaner and toplaners job now or why do you all think you get a support that sets you back 4 level at minute 20? Because adc (except vayne) dont carry the game anymore at all.
@@amilo5 adc needs a rework
@@cherno8336 Yes but riot tried that and it does not work at all. Maybe they should just delete lethality (overused by all adc and most assassins now build bruiser items) and crunch some numbers after that so adcs dont die as quickly.
I miss sett support so much, I mained him season 10 through 11, until recently when he got nerfed to oblivion.
I'd honestly like to see another ad support, I want some kind of ad artillery to match poke lanes. Closest I've gotten to that is actually lethality varus support, which didn't go to badly.
Rumble support is the real carry support, a well placed ult wins pretty much any early botlane fight to the point where I sometimes let my adc get engaged on and die so that the enemies are distracted and I can nuke the enemy adc without anyone stopping me, levels 1 and 2 are really rough but after you get level 6 you deal so much damage that it barely matters unless you are against something like draven nautilus
"Carry Supports" were made for the sole purpose of tricking people who don't actually like supporting the team into queuing for support to make queue times shorter.
Main character syndrome is strong with these ones.
As a player who plays all types of supports. This is 100 percent fact
I just want to play Zyra cause i like her and i dont like getting onetapped by all the assassins in midlane
As a support main, you’re not wrong
@@josefinacabrera589 Same
@@josefinacabrera589 Then they should make Zyra a better character as a midlane mage or a support.
Thank you for inspiring me vars. You will soon see me star in happy chime noises video on "How this warwick support got to challenger"
an example of experimental/sleeper supports
Vi is heavily undervalued as a support. She provides the up front damage for early game kills, along with the engage and single target lockdown associated with tank supports.
the short duration of her Q cc is a weakness. either she needs an adc which is well positioned and has quick reaction timing, or the bot lane players must be both good at communication, or you play her with a premade. if one or more of these conditions are met however, she becomes one of the most impactful supports i have seen in bot lane.
trying to play Kalista in soloq:
my autofills: vel'koz or xerath. take it or dodge
I mean, they aren't required to play what you want just like how your not required to play what they want. (Also you can say the same about a Janna or Morgana)
@@frappessb8246 the idea here is: you play ranked with intent to win.
if you have to lock in after adc (priority pick order)
and it's a known fact that picking an enchanter with kalista is almost a guaranteed loss because of how she works
one could argue the support sabotaged draft with intent to lose
also: you could not say same for Janna and Morg as those 2 actually fit kalista out of all enchanters/mages
Janna+Kalista insec
Kali+Morg= R+R
there are enchanter/mage fits but they aren't as consistent as tank/cc ones
and they are exceptions to the rule rather than proof to pick someone useless
As a main support I'll tell you why we go carries, I love playing Soraka, Taric, Yuumi and making my team invincible, I enjoy giving assists in those champs more than kills. But, in so many matches you get 4 useless players, all stupid and braindead that you can't find anyone to support since you feel like nothing you can do. But with Xerath, Lux and Veigar I carry games being 23/5, 16/2, 12/1 (actual matches) even if the rest of my team is have 6 kills combined (also actual matches).
We go carries not because it's boring, quite the opposite it's very fun but when the match making algorithm puts you with 4 bad players you can't imagine how bad it is to feel that there is no way you can fight back.
played support for almost 4years now; cant say how many times i locked an enchanter and my adc just afked me imagine playing a yummi with afk adc anywhere you go you just be a burden; oh no adc just afk first 3 wave which pretty much decide the outcome of lane as an enchanter i cant really change that; so what go for engage support and go in and see you team just left you; after you die they go in then die; so dont bang on my carry support take your share if im pyke and if im senna i can peel i can tank and i can heal and i can kill;
The main reason I play a carry support is if I've just had one of THOSE games where the actual adc just flops around and feeds, or a lategame where nobody else seems concerned about the sidelanes permanently pushing the wrong way. Having someone who can do step up in those circumstances is very useful.
Pyke and Senna don't belong in this discussion.
THey have another ways to gain income, so that they don't rely on bBS like mage supports do.
The main problem for mage supports is gold, like you said, base value.
They're just a chgeese pick, nothing more.
However, Pyke and Senna were designed this way, thus they don't have the same issue and can be considered true supports, and not just some absolute trash pick like mages.
AND their base value is much higher, since Pyke isn't just an assasin, he's first of all an engage support (a catcher), and then assasin.
While Senna is a hybrid of marksmen and enchanters.
I would include Zyra in this aswell due to the sheer pressure slows and hard cc she can apply but otherwise brand just ruins lane with e spread, and just males lane feel like hell since he has no reliable cc, and brands seem to be allergic to rylais
@@theweirdsuper4633 she's still quite item dependant, if she had somekind of external.income, kr had cheap items, that woul be anothee discussion.
Or if she had more supportive options it would be kinda nice, since her playstyle is a catcher and she would be actually quite good with a cheap build, just like Morg shoul go support, but has the optionnto go damage.
I mean they are hyper carries supports that scale and can basically help you carry the game or them carrying the game with their contribution
@@BootlegYakuzaYT >Pyke.
>Scaling.
He's literally unplayable after a certain point, you need to really end fast with him.
@@lanternno8491 still categorized into the hyper carry, not necessary for scaling like ad but gold for Pyke's case
as a supp main, i do pick carry supps, depending on the team combs
if we have no ap, ill pick Xerath or Zyra if avaible
I play a lot of supp as well. Beside Zyra, I also go for veigar, if my team lack cc and is full of duelist fighters like xin zhao yasuo and master yi, so if i pick engage supp which do have tons of cc but I'll just die with the rest of boys when I jump in.
Dope video.
Not only ADC players hate them but support players too
Enchanter players (like me) to be exact
It's so annoying to be constantly poked without an ability to answer
But I don't deny that it is so much fun playing them
I play morgana in support sometimes when people really dont want me to play zyra cuz they dont like her. But it frustrates me because if you want me to be a mom kinda enchanter, i need the recognition. I "carry" but they take all the glory.
The thing I don't like about Senna and Pyke are that people see they're good carries in botlane, then try to take them mid or top etc. Pyke mid is good in theory, until he's the only one with kills and no one else does enough damage for him to execute, which is Pyke's whole thing.
I cant wait for the yordles video even tho I dont really care about all these topics your videos are really entertaining and I really enjoy them
A champ I’d like to hear your thoughts on: why nobody used to play Bard until he suddenly went meta sometime in S9 and stayed mostly relevant since? Or more generally, champs that made a comeback rather than dropping off (as is common for “no one plays” champs.)
Probably because of pyke and yuumi