The new testament quote Paul is reaching for is in Phillipians 2 I love the phraseology of the 'tyranny of certainty'. I have long contended that the opposite of faith is certainty - based on Hebrews 11 definition of faith. and I proclaim often that doubt is not lack of faith but the honesty of faith; embracing the questions etc.
I loved this conversation! Paul is one of the few exmos I know of who are actively trying to understand the Book of Mormon in a sincere way. He gives some phenomenal insights. And Peter, this is a bit different with you being the patient listener who interviews ;). Can't wait for the future episodes!
Hello Peter! It took me a sec to get the reference of the title of this series when I saw the notification - how appropriate! I'm a NeverMo atheist in Utah, of late fascinated by Mormonism. Somehow the almighty deities of The Algorithm led me from Mormon Stories Podcast eventually to Nemo and then to your channel. As another long-winded person (lol see this comment!) I am always amused and enjoy you and Nemo and the Britvengers' back and forth. I was raised blissfully secular though immersed in US cultural Protestantism - I think I know all the Xmas song and carol standards + the lord's prayer by heart still. Mormonism has led me to study Christianity, Judaism and religious studies more generally. I enjoy MCW's content even though I have a very different perspective - that's the joy of intellectual exploration in the current age in the so-called Western world, at least while we hold the forces of mind control and authoritarianism at bay, if barely. My study of JudeoXian religions has deepened my appreciation of art, literature, music, and the creativity of our highly evolved, unique species of hyper-social ape. Religious practice is yet another route to the fully human experiences of awe, connectedness, and transcendence rooted in our neurobiology. I don't know if Peter or Paul has any taste for folk/rock music but wanted to share a song that immediately came to mind during their convo, Girl in the War by US musician Josh Ritter. Here is a link to the official UA-cam release from the album. There are many live performance recordings out there, too. I've seen Josh several times, he incorporates biblical and religious themes into his song stories in his own unique way that I find spine-tingling (the "holy ghost" is a natural response to resonant emotions). ua-cam.com/video/CcTs0VV4FbI/v-deo.htmlsi=y2rKaPudipE0v179 The song lyrics are as follows, an imagined convo between another Peter and Paul :) - yeah those two characters of old. I hope you enjoy the song and take this comment as an appreciation of both of you! All the best and here's to a happy new year to come, despite it all. Peter said to Paul "All those words that we wrote Are just the rules of the game and the rules are the first to go" But now talkin' to God is Laurel beggin' Hardy for a gun I got a girl in the war, man I wonder what it is we done Paul said to Peter "You gotta rock yourself a little harder, Pretend the dove from above is a dragon and your feet are on fire" And I got a girl in the war, Paul the only thing I know to do Is turn up the music and pray that she makes it through Because the keys to the kingdom got locked inside the kingdom And the angels fly around in there, but we can't see them And I got a girl in the war, Paul I know that they can hear me yell If they can't find a way to help, they can go to Hell If they can't find a way to help her, they can go to Hell Paul said to Peter "You gotta rock yourself a little harder, Pretend the dove from above is a dragon and your feet are on fire" But I got a girl in the war, Paul her eyes are like champagne They sparkle, bubble over, and in the morning all you got is rain Sparkle, bubble over, and in the morning all you got is rain They sparkle, bubble over, and in the morning all you got is rain
Thank you so much for this delightful and encouraging message. I'm always up for discovering new music so what a treat. I love your curiosity about other cultures and life experiences. At first when John Dehlin was saying a huge percentage of his viewership are never-Mormons it seemed really weird, but I get fascinated by lives and religions that are very different in my own so of course the peculiar people of Mormonism are fascinating to try to understand better, and in doing so learn more about the human condition and power and philosophy and society. I'm so pleased our work has been fun and meaningful for you!
@mormoncivilwar6189 Hello Peter, thanks for the gracious reply. Regarding interest in Mormonism I moved to Utah after college because a school friend grew up here, his dad recruited to the U of Utah as faculty. Not Mormon either. I was a bookish kid from the flatlands who took a leap of faith to work in a resort in the Wasatch & learn to ski for a season until I figured out what to do with my life. Decades later, we are still here! In the resort towns it can be easy to avoid or ignore Mormonism, well except for the liquor laws to explain to exasperated tourists back then - much better now. Eventually I moved to Salt Lake City surrounded by Mormons across the faith spectrum. That is what piqued my curiosity. I read a couple of books - rereading one now, Joseph Smith & the Origins of the Book of Mormon (Persuitte) - and was stunned that anyone could believe in it. Little did I know about indocrination or mind control, or recruitment techniques like love bombing & proof texting, or US history, or a lot of things. I had been a hard sciences major and naturalist in academia. Anyway the pandemic gave me time to dive back in. Now I like to think of myself as an honorary exMo without the baggage - my exMo neighbors joke I know so much more than they do - and I get far too many inside jokes & references now. To all of your credit as content creators, I have so much more empathy & good will toward all of the good hearted regular members out there. And the deepest antipathy towards the upper leaders. Thank you for being a teacher, formal & informal, and for your ethics & intellect & curiosity.
Peter, a wise choice to invite Paul to join you. If Day 1 is any indication of what is to follow, this is certain to be a series of honest, substantive, informative, and rewarding discussions. As someone who has known Paul for decades, I feel qualified to affirm that when it comes to prizing intellectual honesty, and championing the virtues of integrity, humility, and fidelity; someone who is genuinely committed to being faithful, kind, loving, and nonjudgmental ... Paul Toscano is a surrogate for the 13th Article of Faith.
Love the brain food. It gives you a headache as you stretch your mind into the universe as one examines theology. I am on board and look forward. Britvengers forever.
Paul and Peter, this should be interesting. I can listen to Peter for hours... Paul's theology anf logic enrages me. Let's see what happens when they combine forces.
I'm old school mormon. I'm 63 years old. I was always taught that because God is both just and loving, Jesus had to die to fulfill justice. I was also always taught that the Holy Ghost would get a body before the second coming. This makes sense to me. Thoughts?
This is how some Church members have tried to make it all make sense, but considering recent disclaimers by apostles I don't think any of them would commit to these doctrines we used to throw around so confidently decades ago now. And this is one of the major points we are making in these discussions The leaders don't understand doctrine and refuse to develop it any further, so we are all left floundering around with lots of different ways to Mormon within the church based on who said what to us years ago. For example, if the Holy Spirit cannot influence or communicate with us while having a physical body, how on earth are we going to connect with Jesus and God the father and God the mother and whoever else if we don't happen to be in the same room with them in the millennium? Is it going to be through the seer stones Joseph Smith said we will all be given? It's hard to follow any of these trains of thought without getting very quickly into the weird and the somewhat ludicrous. If the Holy Spirit is to have a body at the beginning of the Millennium does that mean he's going to be born as a baby to somebody and be raised like a human? If Jesus is the only perfect person that ever lived on our earth or we live on it, does that mean the Holy Spirit is going to be a very naughty boy sometimes? Will we watch his mum and dad shouting out of their window "Stop throwing rocks at your baby Sister, Holy Ghost!" Would they be allowed to smack Holy Ghost's bottom if he's a very very naughty boy? It kind of doesn't work really does it. But then it raises all kinds of questions about the coronation of Jesus as a little boy. And then you start to feel a bit embarrassed that you took any of this fairytale stuff seriously as the ultimate truth of the universe and its creator. So those are my thoughts about these sorts of things at the moment. Faith deconstruction is wild! What kind of justice demands that an innocent person has to suffer all that they has to be suffering in order to be forgiven for something? Can't God just be forgiving and merciful without torturing anybody? This is a strong critique of Christianity in the Quran. It gets exasperated at the silly Christians and their idea that just and merciful God can't just decide to be forgiving and merciful without the rigmarole of human sacrifice, since those qualities are already fundamental to his nature. I think there is something very powerful about God humbling himself to be with us that Islam misses, but Paul's position is you can have that happen without having to have penal substitution and torturing one of the children with unspeakable agony in order to be able to be merciful to the rest.
@mormoncivilwar6189 Interesting to listen to the debate in the Mormon context. But within Christianity Penal Substitution is only one of many theologies of the cross/atonement. But it is the strongest within US Evangelicals - potentially through Calvin even though non Calvinists promote it.
The new testament quote Paul is reaching for is in Phillipians 2
I love the phraseology of the 'tyranny of certainty'. I have long contended that the opposite of faith is certainty - based on Hebrews 11 definition of faith. and I proclaim often that doubt is not lack of faith but the honesty of faith; embracing the questions etc.
I loved this conversation! Paul is one of the few exmos I know of who are actively trying to understand the Book of Mormon in a sincere way. He gives some phenomenal insights. And Peter, this is a bit different with you being the patient listener who interviews ;). Can't wait for the future episodes!
I'm getting a huge taste of my own medicine LOL. Paul is not having my attempts at interrupting him when he is on a roll 😂
Kudos to Paul and Peter.
Paul you are brilliant and heading on the right track knowing that Christ is God and that God is Love.
What a pleasant surprise. Peter is one of my favorites!
Why thankyou! Happy Christmas!
I agree.
This is a great idea. Love to hear from both of you. I listen to both of your podcasts. Thanks to both of you.
Hello Peter! It took me a sec to get the reference of the title of this series when I saw the notification - how appropriate!
I'm a NeverMo atheist in Utah, of late fascinated by Mormonism. Somehow the almighty deities of The Algorithm led me from Mormon Stories Podcast eventually to Nemo and then to your channel. As another long-winded person (lol see this comment!) I am always amused and enjoy you and Nemo and the Britvengers' back and forth.
I was raised blissfully secular though immersed in US cultural Protestantism - I think I know all the Xmas song and carol standards + the lord's prayer by heart still. Mormonism has led me to study Christianity, Judaism and religious studies more generally.
I enjoy MCW's content even though I have a very different perspective - that's the joy of intellectual exploration in the current age in the so-called Western world, at least while we hold the forces of mind control and authoritarianism at bay, if barely.
My study of JudeoXian religions has deepened my appreciation of art, literature, music, and the creativity of our highly evolved, unique species of hyper-social ape. Religious practice is yet another route to the fully human experiences of awe, connectedness, and transcendence rooted in our neurobiology.
I don't know if Peter or Paul has any taste for folk/rock music but wanted to share a song that immediately came to mind during their convo, Girl in the War by US musician Josh Ritter. Here is a link to the official UA-cam release from the album. There are many live performance recordings out there, too. I've seen Josh several times, he incorporates biblical and religious themes into his song stories in his own unique way that I find spine-tingling (the "holy ghost" is a natural response to resonant emotions).
ua-cam.com/video/CcTs0VV4FbI/v-deo.htmlsi=y2rKaPudipE0v179
The song lyrics are as follows, an imagined convo between another Peter and Paul :) - yeah those two characters of old.
I hope you enjoy the song and take this comment as an appreciation of both of you!
All the best and here's to a happy new year to come, despite it all.
Peter said to Paul "All those words that we wrote
Are just the rules of the game and the rules are the first to go"
But now talkin' to God is Laurel beggin' Hardy for a gun
I got a girl in the war, man I wonder what it is we done
Paul said to Peter "You gotta rock yourself a little harder,
Pretend the dove from above is a dragon and your feet are on fire"
And I got a girl in the war, Paul the only thing I know to do
Is turn up the music and pray that she makes it through
Because the keys to the kingdom got locked inside the kingdom
And the angels fly around in there, but we can't see them
And I got a girl in the war, Paul I know that they can hear me yell
If they can't find a way to help, they can go to Hell
If they can't find a way to help her, they can go to Hell
Paul said to Peter "You gotta rock yourself a little harder,
Pretend the dove from above is a dragon and your feet are on fire"
But I got a girl in the war, Paul her eyes are like champagne
They sparkle, bubble over, and in the morning all you got is rain
Sparkle, bubble over, and in the morning all you got is rain
They sparkle, bubble over, and in the morning all you got is rain
Thank you so much for this delightful and encouraging message. I'm always up for discovering new music so what a treat. I love your curiosity about other cultures and life experiences. At first when John Dehlin was saying a huge percentage of his viewership are never-Mormons it seemed really weird, but I get fascinated by lives and religions that are very different in my own so of course the peculiar people of Mormonism are fascinating to try to understand better, and in doing so learn more about the human condition and power and philosophy and society. I'm so pleased our work has been fun and meaningful for you!
@mormoncivilwar6189 Hello Peter, thanks for the gracious reply. Regarding interest in Mormonism I moved to Utah after college because a school friend grew up here, his dad recruited to the U of Utah as faculty. Not Mormon either. I was a bookish kid from the flatlands who took a leap of faith to work in a resort in the Wasatch & learn to ski for a season until I figured out what to do with my life. Decades later, we are still here! In the resort towns it can be easy to avoid or ignore Mormonism, well except for the liquor laws to explain to exasperated tourists back then - much better now.
Eventually I moved to Salt Lake City surrounded by Mormons across the faith spectrum. That is what piqued my curiosity. I read a couple of books - rereading one now, Joseph Smith & the Origins of the Book of Mormon (Persuitte) - and was stunned that anyone could believe in it. Little did I know about indocrination or mind control, or recruitment techniques like love bombing & proof texting, or US history, or a lot of things. I had been a hard sciences major and naturalist in academia. Anyway the pandemic gave me time to dive back in. Now I like to think of myself as an honorary exMo without the baggage - my exMo neighbors joke I know so much more than they do - and I get far too many inside jokes & references now. To all of your credit as content creators, I have so much more empathy & good will toward all of the good hearted regular members out there. And the deepest antipathy towards the upper leaders.
Thank you for being a teacher, formal & informal, and for your ethics & intellect & curiosity.
Peter, a wise choice to invite Paul to join you. If Day 1 is any indication of what is to follow, this is certain to be a series of honest, substantive, informative, and rewarding discussions.
As someone who has known Paul for decades, I feel qualified to affirm that when it comes to prizing intellectual honesty, and championing the virtues of integrity, humility, and fidelity; someone who is genuinely committed to being faithful, kind, loving, and nonjudgmental ... Paul Toscano is a surrogate for the 13th Article of Faith.
Woohoo! I’m excited for this 😊
Yes, yes yes! Can't wait to continue to hear from paul
A Christmas Miracle!
I must admit, I was waiting for someone named Mary to join. Yes, I grew up in the days of Peter, Paul, and Mary. 😎
Mary is here, but incognito as the Holy Spirit! 😉
This was great, Peter! I look forward to the remaining episodes and hearing Paul's ideas!
Love the brain food. It gives you a headache as you stretch your mind into the universe as one examines theology. I am on board and look forward. Britvengers forever.
Paul and Peter, this should be interesting. I can listen to Peter for hours... Paul's theology anf logic enrages me. Let's see what happens when they combine forces.
Great discussion. I'm looking forward to more brain food and stimulation of thought.
Genuinely am praying and feel bad for the Mormons.
curious. In which way?
@@helenr4300what? Are you Mormons
Some of us are feeling bad for ourselves! Thank you for your prayers.
Thank you Peter. Ÿou r kind. Hi Paul. Ty both 4 this🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
I'm old school mormon. I'm 63 years old. I was always taught that because God is both just and loving, Jesus had to die to fulfill justice. I was also always taught that the Holy Ghost would get a body before the second coming. This makes sense to me. Thoughts?
This is how some Church members have tried to make it all make sense, but considering recent disclaimers by apostles I don't think any of them would commit to these doctrines we used to throw around so confidently decades ago now. And this is one of the major points we are making in these discussions The leaders don't understand doctrine and refuse to develop it any further, so we are all left floundering around with lots of different ways to Mormon within the church based on who said what to us years ago.
For example, if the Holy Spirit cannot influence or communicate with us while having a physical body, how on earth are we going to connect with Jesus and God the father and God the mother and whoever else if we don't happen to be in the same room with them in the millennium? Is it going to be through the seer stones Joseph Smith said we will all be given?
It's hard to follow any of these trains of thought without getting very quickly into the weird and the somewhat ludicrous.
If the Holy Spirit is to have a body at the beginning of the Millennium does that mean he's going to be born as a baby to somebody and be raised like a human? If Jesus is the only perfect person that ever lived on our earth or we live on it, does that mean the Holy Spirit is going to be a very naughty boy sometimes? Will we watch his mum and dad shouting out of their window "Stop throwing rocks at your baby Sister, Holy Ghost!" Would they be allowed to smack Holy Ghost's bottom if he's a very very naughty boy? It kind of doesn't work really does it. But then it raises all kinds of questions about the coronation of Jesus as a little boy.
And then you start to feel a bit embarrassed that you took any of this fairytale stuff seriously as the ultimate truth of the universe and its creator.
So those are my thoughts about these sorts of things at the moment. Faith deconstruction is wild!
What kind of justice demands that an innocent person has to suffer all that they has to be suffering in order to be forgiven for something? Can't God just be forgiving and merciful without torturing anybody? This is a strong critique of Christianity in the Quran. It gets exasperated at the silly Christians and their idea that just and merciful God can't just decide to be forgiving and merciful without the rigmarole of human sacrifice, since those qualities are already fundamental to his nature. I think there is something very powerful about God humbling himself to be with us that Islam misses, but Paul's position is you can have that happen without having to have penal substitution and torturing one of the children with unspeakable agony in order to be able to be merciful to the rest.
@mormoncivilwar6189 Interesting to listen to the debate in the Mormon context. But within Christianity Penal Substitution is only one of many theologies of the cross/atonement. But it is the strongest within US Evangelicals - potentially through Calvin even though non Calvinists promote it.