I adore this Female Joker design, very stylish and distinctive, it's not your usual affair when they just make a regular Joker but with breasts, like with Duela Dent or Martha Wayne.
I think this Joker is a lot better than The Penguin because it's not a lazy genderswap but a genuine alternative take on the character. That's what I think is the real problem with the "Female Penguin" it's just a regular Penguin that doesn't wear pants and that's it, which makes you question what was the point to genderswap him in the first place?
I still find it hilarious how some people get all twisted when a character is changed like gender-swapped. The just exist in another universe, I swear they act like the original characters have been replaced. I liked the version of Joker where it was Martha Wayne who lost her mind after Bruce was killed.
I think you're right, but I would like to think that the outrage comes both from out of affection fot these characters as well as the depiction itself, not the "swaps", but I'm not really sure.
@@anyalized I would say there are those who are outraged about the change because they are attracted to the characters no denying that, but there are those who are just don't like or can accept a fresh take on a character. The creators who make the change, I feel like they do like those characters but want to see something new and different from them. That's why even when the stories of characters are retold, you do find changes made to maybe their personality or behaviors so to be fresh. If you just keep telling the same story again and again with no changes its just going to get stale. And of course you might have creators, or the powers that be want a character change because of well diversity or they personally don't like the original character. Regardless those changes can be a hit or miss.
There was also another forgotten female Joker in the elseworlds comics, Bianca Steeplechase from the Thrillkiller universe (Earth-37). She was a ruthless crime boss in the early 60s who was posing as the mayor's wife and was in a relationship with that world's Harley Quinn, a girl named Haley Fitzapatrick. I'd recomend the book overall the artwork is superb, the story and its sequel Thrillkiller '62 are gripping reads and the vibe kinda gives off an American Graffiti meets film noir vibe.
Thrillkiller is such a delight! it's a modern classic, but it's far more beloved and talked about than the tangent version, which in turn, gets no love. Thank you for bringing it up, though!
remember that Johnny bravo episode with a clown on a plane and Johnny Bravo pulls out some lady clown to distract him? That's what your lil character reminds me of.
Penguin is a snob who is despised and underestimated for his appearance Oswalda is considered attractive by the in universe male audiences and it doesn't seem to be a manipulation tactic to gain her financial support she is Penguin in name only and was altered into a woman merely to insult the established male fanbase of Batman who would find her repulsive. Caped Crusader is the most needlessly feminist, pro-gay Batman series I've ever seen it's like nothing in the West can ever just be aimed towards a male audience or the established fanbase everything has to advertise effemininity, fat positivity, homosexuality, masculine women, self-righteousness through leftwing politics, and bait&switch subversions. If you writers hate the product/franchise for not being post-modern or leftist enough don't adapt it. I did find it to be better than castlevania netflix.
I don’t get why they didn’t just go and use another already established female character or create a whole new one. This feels like trigger bait. Like nobody would even be talking if it was just plain ol’ Pengy, another character just as they are or a wholly new person nobody knows or cares about. I mean they were willing to use someone like Gentleman Ghost so it’s not like they were unwilling to delve into a more obscure territory for their pool of rogues.
From the premise of this version of the joker? I'd say I really dig it! I guess being a transformers fan im perfectly okay with reimagining characters, and even the whole "Female penguin" hatred seems a bit forced to me as she's also a good character! Both have great designs as well.
I remember being around when the screenshot appeared of female penguin and was thinking "Penguin is about to become everyone's favourite childhood villain"
The artwork on female Joker is gorgeous..as for Oswalda, she only got one episode.. not a lot of time to delve into her character..given time Brubaker, Rucka or Gail Simone could have really done something with that character.. The people who hated the female penguin, hated her before the episode even aired..that tells you all you need to know...
I LOVED the Tangent comics line and the female Joker,the art-work in those books were consistently-GOOD.I'd love to get my hands on that comic line again ( for a reasonable price tho ) LOL.And I LOVE the female Joker's costume,nice design.Completely forgot about this run of comics,this was when DC was putting out good titles you wanted to buy. GOOD job as usual on your videos,keep'em coming-PLEASE.
Oh yes, those were the good ol' days! Hope you can get the tangent comics someday, I still have the ones I had as a kid, and they're not in great condition haha. Thank you very much! :)
And Id like to think that anyone with a pair of synapses to rub together would be able to see why something like Tangent Joker rocks but Femguin is getting panned, its laziness. Just from this one short video I can already gleam that much more creativity and heart was put into making Tangent Joker its own distinct entity whereas Femguin just screams "we only genderswapped this character to push our DEI quotas"
This is a interesting alternate interpretation of the character, but I feel like their biggest downfall is that none of the three women who took up the mantle of the joker in this universe really had anything to do with the character. Besides dressing up like a clown they don’t really reflect him all that much. Even if you’re making the Joker a hero, I feel like they should still reflect some elements of the character. In this way, I feel like the alternate versions of Joker that we see in crisis onto earths movie and the flashpoint Paradox comics Do better job of adapting the joker
That's ver true! they could have had at least some slight connective tissue with the OG Joker, but for some reason they wanted to distance themselves from that.. kinda weird, now that I think of it.
He problem to me is that the ideas behind it are often under developed. Some would say a gender swap should change NOTHINGA about a character except make them a the opposite gender. This doesnt work because cultural norms would have effected the character. The other problem comes with failing to grasp core ideas of a characters identity, I'll break down a few points. Oswalda has a dumb name, this is part of just changing the gender, your parents likely wouldn't just name you the female version of Oswald, my name is chris but my parents wouldn't have just named me christine if I was a girl. Next the design, penguin is supposed to be considered "ugly" hes short, fat, has a huge nose like a beak, he looks like a little bird man, but oswalda instead is TALL, fat but mainly curvy, a small pointy nose, she has a few of his traits but they dont make her look like a penguin, Nore do they make her look ugly, so she falls flat in being a design translation of penguins character.
@@christophercrafte She literally has the body type of a big protective penguin mother and that fits the character perfectly imo. Like on a Penguin spectrum that includes Danny Devito and Robin Lord Taylor I don't think that's really an argument especially for a reinterpretation that goes for a distinct direction with concept of "pinguin themed criminal."
Sooo to answer your questions: * I couldn't care less about Oswalda Cobblepot, despite the Penguin being a TOP 3 Bat-villain for me in most of his incarnations. I guess I hardly care for "hey, it's Golden Age Batman except no" this show paraded. I'll stick with Burton's as the closest to early Batman... * Frankly, when you said female Joker, I thought of the Thrillkiller version Bianca Steeplechase. I am a huge fan of 70's-90's Joker and she was no exception. She clearly fell in the same bleaching chemicals (and looks mighty fine with that chalk complexion, salad hair and ruby lips !), she is a ruthless gangster through and through (fuck the Killing Joke One day BS, I stick to the pre-Joker as a criminal version...), a skilled singer (Joker is after all theatrical & has knack for spectacle !) and even gets her a Harley (1st iteration of Harls outside BTAS !) * I didn't know much about the Tangent Universe, but I am happy to see Lori Lemaris in other incarnations. I love Superman's Post-crisis supporting cast and she is one of the reasons as to why... Anyway, very informative !
"hey, it's Golden Age Batman except no" Ding ding ding! Perfect description of the show! As for "Thrillkiller", It's soo nice to see people showing appreciation for it (aside from the art). It seems most people can't see past Dan Brereton's stunningly beautiful work. Thank you very much for watching and taking the time to share your thoughts!
It was really sad seeing 40+ year old men with walls full of toys have a melty about trying out new takes on a character. I am one of the "weird" people that enjoyed the matsudaverse batman series, one of my favorite things about it was how the villains were actually able to fight back and didn't just get smoked by batman after he foiled their plans. That was one of the big issues for me with a lot of villains is they rarely seemed to pose a physical threat unless they were someone like Mr. Freeze.
Oh, but there's nothing wrong or "weird" with liking 2004's The Batman. I don't think there's that many who have said that. They did several characters quite well, actually, like Catwoman.
This is something different and I’m interested. I think there was another female Joker beside Martha Wayne flashpoint. If I remember right she was still a gangster but married to the mayor of Gotham and in that universe was with Harley Quinn like most universes and killed Catwoman and Robin
Oh yes, who doesn't love Flashpoint Joker, she has become quite memorable! There's been a few female jokers, thanks to the liberties provided by elseworlds, but the least popular one, is by far the Tangent one :)
You forgot about flashpoint… Martha Wayne turned into the female joker and even in a lesbian relationship with Harley. And had Harley kill her own family.. js
I didn't forget about her or the Bianca version, however, this video isn't about either of them, who are far better known and came out several years later than the Tangent version, just sayin..
There would be riots in the streets if the next Black Panther movie had Tchalla getting shafted and the role of Black Panther being passed to Kevin Cole
There is a HUGE and I mean HUGE different to re-imagine and gender swap....the female Joker of the Tangent Universe Lori is a complete different character that operates in a complete different way to the main Joker, in essence making her character UNIQUE and interesting...... her design, her personality and goals all are top notch, while Oswalda Copplepot is just Penguin but as a female, doing what the normal Penguin will do, just.....is a woman now......what original unique take is this....yeap NO its just a nothing burger of an unnecessary update, that offers nothing new to the persona of the Penguin, making her one of the worst takes on the character, while this version of Joker, is Unique, not only is world is completely different, her look, her goals and identity which is even more crazy as is 3 people, making her interesting and a very creative take on a heroic Joker, remind me to the Justice League film in which the villains are the heroes and the heroes the villains, Crists of two Earths.
Extremely reductive take. Even when she's doing similar things she does them in different ways. They even made her a mother who kills her favorite son for suspecting one of them to be a snitch, not even because she knew he was the snitch but because even if he wasn't it would still make a clear thread to her other son. That's something you literally couldn't do with a male penguin because even if you gave him sons it still wouldn't have the same emotional impact. I think your problem has nothing to do with them making too many or not enough changes, I think it's more about them making her a woman and you have a problem with that.
Hmmm.. I personally don't mind the gender swaps, as long as the characters are given actual substance, and are used for something interesting that otherwise wouldn't normally work in reverse. The problem is, that they usually don't go much further than the initial "shock value"..
I think its fine for minor villians, Like if In my adventures with superman they make Prankster and the Gambler into women why is that worse then making them alien's with superpowers instead of normal humans
I adore this Female Joker design, very stylish and distinctive, it's not your usual affair when they just make a regular Joker but with breasts, like with Duela Dent or Martha Wayne.
I love it too! Matt Haley really did wonders with what could have easily been nothing more than a "sexy" variation of the purple suit.
Yep, it does look amazing
I think this Joker is a lot better than The Penguin because it's not a lazy genderswap but a genuine alternative take on the character.
That's what I think is the real problem with the "Female Penguin" it's just a regular Penguin that doesn't wear pants and that's it, which makes you question what was the point to genderswap him in the first place?
Yup, I also think Joker much better than Oswalda, but I have a feeling not many people will agree ha!
@anyalized I think a lot of people would agree, cause, let's be real, nobody really cares about The Penguin🤣
Serum Lake made an Analysis on Oswald Cobblepot/Penguin.
I still find it hilarious how some people get all twisted when a character is changed like gender-swapped.
The just exist in another universe, I swear they act like the original characters have been replaced.
I liked the version of Joker where it was Martha Wayne who lost her mind after Bruce was killed.
I think you're right, but I would like to think that the outrage comes both from out of affection fot these characters as well as the depiction itself, not the "swaps", but I'm not really sure.
@@anyalized I would say there are those who are outraged about the change because they are attracted to the characters no denying that, but there are those who are just don't like or can accept a fresh take on a character.
The creators who make the change, I feel like they do like those characters but want to see something new and different from them. That's why even when the stories of characters are retold, you do find changes made to maybe their personality or behaviors so to be fresh. If you just keep telling the same story again and again with no changes its just going to get stale.
And of course you might have creators, or the powers that be want a character change because of well diversity or they personally don't like the original character.
Regardless those changes can be a hit or miss.
There was also another forgotten female Joker in the elseworlds comics, Bianca Steeplechase from the Thrillkiller universe (Earth-37). She was a ruthless crime boss in the early 60s who was posing as the mayor's wife and was in a relationship with that world's Harley Quinn, a girl named Haley Fitzapatrick. I'd recomend the book overall the artwork is superb, the story and its sequel Thrillkiller '62 are gripping reads and the vibe kinda gives off an American Graffiti meets film noir vibe.
Thrillkiller is such a delight! it's a modern classic, but it's far more beloved and talked about than the tangent version, which in turn, gets no love. Thank you for bringing it up, though!
remember that Johnny bravo episode with a clown on a plane and Johnny Bravo pulls out some lady clown to distract him? That's what your lil character reminds me of.
Gee thanks! :D
Personally, I didn't mind Oswalda being a woman. It was still Penguin in character.
Well she is thicc.
Penguin is a snob who is despised and underestimated for his appearance Oswalda is considered attractive by the in universe male audiences and it doesn't seem to be a manipulation tactic to gain her financial support she is Penguin in name only and was altered into a woman merely to insult the established male fanbase of Batman who would find her repulsive. Caped Crusader is the most needlessly feminist, pro-gay Batman series I've ever seen it's like nothing in the West can ever just be aimed towards a male audience or the established fanbase everything has to advertise effemininity, fat positivity, homosexuality, masculine women, self-righteousness through leftwing politics, and bait&switch subversions. If you writers hate the product/franchise for not being post-modern or leftist enough don't adapt it. I did find it to be better than castlevania netflix.
@@GreenPhoenix91 Yes batman and superman are leftist. Superman is about an alien refugee trying to be accpeted as an american.
@@GreenPhoenix91 I love it when incels whine about fictional characters..it must really make you depressed when Bugs Bunny kisses Elmer Fudd..
I don’t get why they didn’t just go and use another already established female character or create a whole new one. This feels like trigger bait. Like nobody would even be talking if it was just plain ol’ Pengy, another character just as they are or a wholly new person nobody knows or cares about. I mean they were willing to use someone like Gentleman Ghost so it’s not like they were unwilling to delve into a more obscure territory for their pool of rogues.
From the premise of this version of the joker? I'd say I really dig it! I guess being a transformers fan im perfectly okay with reimagining characters, and even the whole "Female penguin" hatred seems a bit forced to me as she's also a good character! Both have great designs as well.
I’m really enjoying these videos, upping my comic knowledge, please keep them coming ❤
Thank you very much! :)
I wasn't mad about MILF Penguin, but I was definitely mad about Two-Face
I remember being around when the screenshot appeared of female penguin and was thinking "Penguin is about to become everyone's favourite childhood villain"
Woopsie!
The artwork on female Joker is gorgeous..as for Oswalda, she only got one episode.. not a lot of time to delve into her character..given time Brubaker, Rucka or Gail Simone could have really done something with that character.. The people who hated the female penguin, hated her before the episode even aired..that tells you all you need to know...
Those hacks weren't even clever enough to call her Meredith Cobblepot! Tangent Joker was so well-written.
DC needs to bring back Screwball. She was cool.
I LOVED the Tangent comics line and the female Joker,the art-work in those books were consistently-GOOD.I'd love to get my hands on that comic line again ( for a reasonable price tho ) LOL.And I LOVE the female Joker's costume,nice design.Completely forgot about this run of comics,this was when DC was putting out good titles you wanted to buy. GOOD job as usual on your videos,keep'em coming-PLEASE.
Oh yes, those were the good ol' days! Hope you can get the tangent comics someday, I still have the ones I had as a kid, and they're not in great condition haha. Thank you very much! :)
@@anyalized You're welcome.
This could’ve been a Harley design
Absolutely!
@@anyalized yea I don’t know why they made it female joker when Harley would realistically do this
An interesting nugget of geek history. I hadn't heard of this one.
Also, the clown Anya avatar is adorable!
Every Anya avatar is adorable
Thank you! also thank you for noticing the avatar! :)
why, thank you veddy much! :)
Only Reason I know about tangent comics is from The Ion series so this is very interesting
love your avatar
Thank you very much :)
I would love a female joker series on thier adventures in new Atlantis!♥️💙💛
5:12 Is that the Teen Titans team from that weird anime-inspired Elseworlds comic? I remember Linkara reviewed that comic years ago.
That's right :) but I didn't know about Linkara's video, I need to watch it, thank you for sharing!
I don’t accept a female penguin
Joker can be female so can penguin
@@yarc9 no I rather preserve my fathers childhood
Did we all forgot Calendar Girl?
And Id like to think that anyone with a pair of synapses to rub together would be able to see why something like Tangent Joker rocks but Femguin is getting panned, its laziness.
Just from this one short video I can already gleam that much more creativity and heart was put into making Tangent Joker its own distinct entity whereas Femguin just screams "we only genderswapped this character to push our DEI quotas"
This is a interesting alternate interpretation of the character, but I feel like their biggest downfall is that none of the three women who took up the mantle of the joker in this universe really had anything to do with the character. Besides dressing up like a clown they don’t really reflect him all that much.
Even if you’re making the Joker a hero, I feel like they should still reflect some elements of the character. In this way, I feel like the alternate versions of Joker that we see in crisis onto earths movie and the flashpoint Paradox comics Do better job of adapting the joker
That's ver true! they could have had at least some slight connective tissue with the OG Joker, but for some reason they wanted to distance themselves from that.. kinda weird, now that I think of it.
So basically genderswapping doesn't work most of the time.
Not when you do it poorly. Specifically relating to this topic Martha Wayne from the Flashpoint universe is a female Joker that actually works.
He problem to me is that the ideas behind it are often under developed.
Some would say a gender swap should change NOTHINGA about a character except make them a the opposite gender. This doesnt work because cultural norms would have effected the character. The other problem comes with failing to grasp core ideas of a characters identity, I'll break down a few points.
Oswalda has a dumb name, this is part of just changing the gender, your parents likely wouldn't just name you the female version of Oswald, my name is chris but my parents wouldn't have just named me christine if I was a girl. Next the design, penguin is supposed to be considered "ugly" hes short, fat, has a huge nose like a beak, he looks like a little bird man, but oswalda instead is TALL, fat but mainly curvy, a small pointy nose, she has a few of his traits but they dont make her look like a penguin, Nore do they make her look ugly, so she falls flat in being a design translation of penguins character.
@@christophercrafte She literally has the body type of a big protective penguin mother and that fits the character perfectly imo. Like on a Penguin spectrum that includes Danny Devito and Robin Lord Taylor I don't think that's really an argument especially for a reinterpretation that goes for a distinct direction with concept of "pinguin themed criminal."
Sooo to answer your questions:
* I couldn't care less about Oswalda Cobblepot, despite the Penguin being a TOP 3 Bat-villain for me in most of his incarnations. I guess I hardly care for "hey, it's Golden Age Batman except no" this show paraded. I'll stick with Burton's as the closest to early Batman...
* Frankly, when you said female Joker, I thought of the Thrillkiller version Bianca Steeplechase. I am a huge fan of 70's-90's Joker and she was no exception. She clearly fell in the same bleaching chemicals (and looks mighty fine with that chalk complexion, salad hair and ruby lips !), she is a ruthless gangster through and through (fuck the Killing Joke One day BS, I stick to the pre-Joker as a criminal version...), a skilled singer (Joker is after all theatrical & has knack for spectacle !) and even gets her a Harley (1st iteration of Harls outside BTAS !)
* I didn't know much about the Tangent Universe, but I am happy to see Lori Lemaris in other incarnations. I love Superman's Post-crisis supporting cast and she is one of the reasons as to why...
Anyway, very informative !
"hey, it's Golden Age Batman except no" Ding ding ding! Perfect description of the show!
As for "Thrillkiller", It's soo nice to see people showing appreciation for it (aside from the art).
It seems most people can't see past Dan Brereton's stunningly beautiful work.
Thank you very much for watching and taking the time to share your thoughts!
It was really sad seeing 40+ year old men with walls full of toys have a melty about trying out new takes on a character.
I am one of the "weird" people that enjoyed the matsudaverse batman series, one of my favorite things about it was how the villains were actually able to fight back and didn't just get smoked by batman after he foiled their plans. That was one of the big issues for me with a lot of villains is they rarely seemed to pose a physical threat unless they were someone like Mr. Freeze.
Oh, but there's nothing wrong or "weird" with liking 2004's The Batman.
I don't think there's that many who have said that.
They did several characters quite well, actually, like Catwoman.
@@anyalized ahh yeah I just felt like an odd one out because not that many people talked about it compared to the classic show or batman beyond 😆
This is something different and I’m interested. I think there was another female Joker beside Martha Wayne flashpoint. If I remember right she was still a gangster but married to the mayor of Gotham and in that universe was with Harley Quinn like most universes and killed Catwoman and Robin
Oh yes, who doesn't love Flashpoint Joker, she has become quite memorable! There's been a few female jokers, thanks to the liberties provided by elseworlds, but the least popular one, is by far the Tangent one :)
Ramdom question can you do a video on killer moth kiteman polkadot man and condimint king please
Those are pretty good picks :) I have a long list of WIP videos that need to come out first, but sure. It might take a while though!
I had never heard of this universe, I think it's kind of fun!
The only female Joker I knew of, was the Martha Wayne Flashpoint version.
It is pretty fun :)
You forgot about flashpoint… Martha Wayne turned into the female joker and even in a lesbian relationship with Harley. And had Harley kill her own family.. js
I didn't forget about her or the Bianca version, however, this video isn't about either of them, who are far better known and came out several years later than the Tangent version, just sayin..
Race & gender not important in Batman but it is important for Wonder Woman & black panther
There would be riots in the streets if the next Black Panther movie had Tchalla getting shafted and the role of Black Panther being passed to Kevin Cole
There is a HUGE and I mean HUGE different to re-imagine and gender swap....the female Joker of the Tangent Universe Lori is a complete different character that operates in a complete different way to the main Joker, in essence making her character UNIQUE and interesting...... her design, her personality and goals all are top notch, while Oswalda Copplepot is just Penguin but as a female, doing what the normal Penguin will do, just.....is a woman now......what original unique take is this....yeap NO its just a nothing burger of an unnecessary update, that offers nothing new to the persona of the Penguin, making her one of the worst takes on the character, while this version of Joker, is Unique, not only is world is completely different, her look, her goals and identity which is even more crazy as is 3 people, making her interesting and a very creative take on a heroic Joker, remind me to the Justice League film in which the villains are the heroes and the heroes the villains, Crists of two Earths.
You're absolutely right, they're not equals, not even by any stretch of the imagination, in any way, sorry if it sounded that way!
Extremely reductive take. Even when she's doing similar things she does them in different ways. They even made her a mother who kills her favorite son for suspecting one of them to be a snitch, not even because she knew he was the snitch but because even if he wasn't it would still make a clear thread to her other son. That's something you literally couldn't do with a male penguin because even if you gave him sons it still wouldn't have the same emotional impact.
I think your problem has nothing to do with them making too many or not enough changes, I think it's more about them making her a woman and you have a problem with that.
Of course they did it better in the 1990s.
Race & gender not important in Batman
@yarc9 Batman is an equal opportunist crime fighter. He doesn't care about what you are and will punch you, if possible, to stop you.
So nice the 90's did it twice ! XD
Well, I had no idea this even existed.
But do you think Gender swapping has become too much (And is just lazy) in this era of comics?
Hmmm.. I personally don't mind the gender swaps, as long as the characters are given actual substance, and are used for something interesting that otherwise wouldn't normally work in reverse. The problem is, that they usually don't go much further than the initial "shock value"..
I think its fine for minor villians, Like if In my adventures with superman they make Prankster and the Gambler into women why is that worse then making them alien's with superpowers instead of normal humans