What is consciousness and the ultimate reality of the Universe | Satya Samvad EP 5
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- Опубліковано 20 кві 2024
- In the fifth episode of Satya Samvad, Dr. Mrittunjoy Guha Majumdar speaks to Prof. Sisir Roy of the National Institute of Advanced Studies on how he sees modern science and mathematics addressing the question of what is consciousness and the ultimate reality of the Universe. Prof. Roy, with his collaborator Prof. Ralph Abraham of the University of California - Santa Cruz, has posited that the concepts of quantum vacuum and category theory could help in doing so. Indian Knowledge Systems have spoken over millenia about consciousness being the underlying basis of reality, while modern science speaks of reality in terms of energy, mass and information. There are many ideas within these traditions, such as Tattvas, spacetime and causality, and the forces of nature, as written about by the likes of Nagarjuna, Dharmakirti and Vasubandhu, which are still being studied through a scientific lens. This exercise needs to be done with rigour and integrity, without recourse to any pseudo-science, as we go ahead. The aim should be the dispassionate and unbiased exploration of the truth of the Universe.
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The never ending journey for the ultimate truth of our universe. I remember in my college days reading about how the fathers of quantum mechanics were influenced by the Upanishads. Both experts were very good!
1. Causality::
Satkarya Vada (presence of cause) and AsatkaryVada (no-presence of cause) for effect to manifest.
On mental level this can be explained. For physicists, is it difficult to prove at fundamental level?
2. Is the term cohesjon the same as Terence Howard these days propagating as Attraction?
On the subject that everyone from Maharshi Ved Vyas to Raman Maharshi spoke on. What is the ultimate reality? God, Bhagwan, Brahman, Satchitanand, getting Nirvana/Moksha. Can we even speak about it? Scientists also always want to find this in particle physics. String theory is popular these days. This 'Satya' being discussed in Satya Samvad is very nice. Prof Shishir Rai has studied so many sides of this area and enough cannot be said about Dr Guha! What I liked the most was there was no shor sharaaba of Hindu knowledge is supreme no matter what. It was scientific and all about being truthful!!
1. There is no ultimate reality. Reality is one and exists without any reference to time or space. All else seen are illusions arising out of ignorance.
2. Everyone carries in his mind his version of a Universe, superimposing illusion on illusion.
3. The 'everyone' I mentioned is an ego born out of ignorance of the spirit (that one is ) which embarks on a self enquiry, due to ignorance of itself.
4. The spirit exists timelessly, is conscious, and is the fountainhead of all empirical knowledge. When it fancies itself to be an ego, its problem starts and ends with knowing itself to be a spirit that is pure existence, pure Consciousness, and is totally satiated in its state.
5. Its bliss is one of ignorance of its own nature. The bliss felt by embodied Gnanis who have realised who they are, is the bliss of satiation. When they leave the mortal coils they get back to their original state.
Please suggest books that describe/suggest links between quantum entanglement/physics and ancient Indic thoughts.
Very insightful session.
Not Peter hagelin. It is John Hagelin
Please allow time to read the slides
Thanks for your input. Shall try to give more time for my interpolated infographics.
जय श्री राम
🙏🙏🙏
We would be doing a great dis-service to Modern science if we force fit ancient theories to modern physics especially of quantum physics without allowing it grow its inquiry on its one based on experimentation and critical observation of results and human experience. One thing seems clear that the subtle object of consciousness needs an interdisciplinary approach .
That is the most important aspect when we are looking at probing concepts from Indian Knowledge systems (IKS) or modern science. It should not be with the desire to `fit' either in the other's framework. Empirical consistency may bring convergences but that should not be the a priori assumption.
We need to let the modern quantum physics theory development to inquire independently on the nature of and locus of consciousness by considering it as one of the quantum objects than be biased by the only metaphysical logical theories put out by Buddhists which had no experimentation and observation independent of the ones who propounded it.
If the transcript is also added it will be excellent.
You can find the transcript by pushing the more button and scroll down to the bottom. 👍
😮
We expect discussion on
UA-cam channel-
Indie Journey
Ep 27
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Bias Sanvidhan
Bohot zyada toh samajh nahi aaya ismey par haan itna toh kahungi ki vigyan abhi asaphal hai woh sab janne mey jo shayad hamare rishiyo ne dhyan se samjha ho! Yeh hai dharm ki shakti 🚩🚩🚩
The issue lies in the existence of numerous *hypotheses,* similar to the one presented in this video. Without empirical validation, they hold little practical value. Essentially, they amount to nothing more than mere speculation.🤔Without empirical validation, hypotheses like these remain topics for informal discussion only.
Most theories of Physics seeking to go towards unification scenarios, such as heterotic SO(32) and E8 x E8 are, in large parts, hypothetical. The problem remains the empirical inaccessibility of domains of nature to us, for experimental validation of theoretical constructs.
@@MrittunjoyGuhaMajumdar While it's true that theories like heterotic SO(32) and E8 × E8 in physics are largely hypothetical, they are based on non-metaphysical assumptions, often referred to as empirical or scientific assumptions. These include the postulate of supersymmetry, the concept of string-like behavior of particles, and the assumption of compactification of extra dimensions. However, Indian Knowledge Systems such as Vedas and Tattvas are rooted in metaphysical assumptions, including ideas about the nature of consciousness and reality. These systems also encompass concepts like Maya, Karma, and Dharma, which are not empirically verifiable but are believed to underpin the universe according to these traditions. This highlights a significant distinction between physics, which relies on empirical evidence and testable theories, and Indian knowledge systems, which are based on beliefs rather than scientific inquiry.
Sir, in the Advaita vedanta and Budhisism of Nagarjuna, the principle is that in the ultimate reality, the objects do not have any attributes. Logically if objects do not have attributes , then considering say a Vedic + Sunyata+Quantum world, the correlation between objects is not possible , it is a myth. This is because for objects to be interdependent and correlated, they need to posses some content/attribute, with out attributes , enther a object can be conceived off nor perceived or even imagined. Even in the quantum world, the quantum physics for study of quantum fields or particles needs to experiment and understand the properties of these quantum particles without which the network of quantum objects is also ill logical.
Therefore although Advaita vedanta and Budhisim can be given the credit of having thought on quantum objects such as conciousness or atman which is pure conciousness, trying to force fit Quantum Physics developments to explain conciousness of ancient Indian philosophy is illogical and unsustainable and erronous.
Nagrjuna's sunyataha and Advaita metaphysics of singular conciousness is untenable in the practical world of even quantum physics. Objects without attributes do not exist!!!!!!
I feel the Atman or Shunyata are not entities without attributes. It' is considered to be absolute, true but undescribable., only experienced.
For scientists, the micro phenomenon has to be proven at " Earth " level, or the " Annamaya Kosha ". Then possibly, the ultimate level can be proven by sreps by indication / deduction. Not direct proof. That is the paradox, I think.
I feel the greatest philosophical debate is between believing we can and should renounce the world so we can be liberated from it's illusion and the belief that we are or our I am presence intentionally created the world out of our desire to experience something rather than nothing or whatever I think are contrivances of what it is like to be without being anything or experiencing anything other than bliss or whatever.
I haven't seen any reason put forward of why one could believe liberation from the appearance of things we imagine is even possible. It seems like just another notion made entirely in the imagination of it's creator just like the Universe it believes it should renounce.
I don't think we could make the world go away even if we desired to. Desire is itself the beginning of creation. 🙏
We have to choose something, to attain bliss, be it anything. Belief or no belief, Maya or no Maya, the method to test it, is provided. One could ask, Is there a world? Then, Is there no-world? Then, Is it possible that there is no-world, and also there is world? Then, is it possible that there is neither world, nor no-world.
It is said that we have to answer/ prove all the four questions. By answering these we already form our own personal belief. If it is unshakable, if we are convinced, "that is the Truth", we are free, On our way to the final answer which lies beyond all four questions.
That is the method suggested. :-)
30:15 - There is nothing called the "Indian Knowledge System". What you have is the "Indian belief system" as you have no evidence for anything like Purusha and Prakriti or Shiva and Shakti. The only knowledge system is *Western science.*
Wrong. Only thing that you don’t need proof of is your own existence. I am the subject and I don’t need any validation from anyone or anything to prove my existence. I am the only entity that is self evident. Existence is the root of Advaita Vedanta. Conscious Awareness, that is SELF cannot be dismissed by science but can’t be proved because it is the very subject itself and not an object that science is dealing with. That’s Indian knowledge system. An UNCHANGING entity orTHE ONLY entity ( no description possible) that cannot be described in words or in any way cannot be boxed into Western science which is subject to changes on newer discoveries. Nothing is final in science unlike Vedanta.
@@vish2553 "Knowledge" mandates and requires EVIDENCE which you don't provide for any of your claims. So it's just a "belief" system.
@@alanrobison4761 you are talking about science, a BRANCH of knowledge system. Science is OBJECTIVE, meaning it deals with PHYSICAL OBJECTS. Vedanta, another knowledge system or end of knowledge as per definition, deals with the very SUBJECT ITSELF, that is you, minus mind, body, senses and intellect. It deals with METAPHYSICAL. Here you want to box in Metaphysical into PHYSICAL and your arguments are based on errors of categorisation.
I’m happy, I am sad, I am angry, I am depressed, these are the metaphysical thoughts of the mind. The observer, the AM, is the very subject. The AM, the IS, are the ONLY REALITY. The proof? It is SELF EVIDENT. My existence, my conscious AWARENESS, doesn’t need proof. I don’t have to go and ask another person “ hey, do I exist, am I consciously AWARE??
Please learn about the very basic fundamentals of Vedanta. Who am I, what am I? Is there a cause for this universe and if so, my relationship to that cause? This is Vedanta, a knowledge system about the true “ YOURSELF “! By logic and analysis, VEDANTA PROVES THAT YOU ARE THE CAUSE OF THE UNIVERSE, YOU are NOT THE limited entity in an ever changing body mind sense complex.
@@alanrobison4761 not sure why my previous response is disappearing. Let’s get this straight. Science, a part of knowledge system, is objective, meaning it deals with physical OBJECTS. Vedanta on other hand deals with NON PHYSICAL, or Metaphysical. Your problem is trying to box in non physical Vedanta into physical science. This is category error. Science is not final and all discoveries are subject to changes in future which again are subject to further discoveries. Scientific Proof is therefore temporary and is not final. Knowledge here is INFINITE and not fixed.
Vedanta deals with the fundamental question every intellectual faces. Who or what am I? Is there a cause for this universe and if so, what is my relationship to that cause?
Only Vedanta boldly states that YOU( not the mind, body sense complex) is the cause of the universe.
Proof?? Your existence itself is the proof. You are SELF EVIDENT. You are SELF AWARE. This existence conscious awareness is the only reality . There’s no second. If one delves deeper, everything is analysed logically and answered. The fundamentals of Vedanta is about the REAL YOU, not the embodied little fella who thinks that he is a limited individual, both in time and space.
Metaphysical enquiry needs to be understood and cannot be proven like science related to MATTER. I’m angry, I am sad, I am happy, I am depressed, this IS my house, IS my car etc carry the common and obvious AM,IS! This is existence. This “ BEING”, this subjectiveness that shines forth and is self evident, doesn’t require proof. One doesn’t need proof of one’s own existence.
Consciousness is present only in a living body and disappears after death is another argument put forward. This means matter produces consciousness. No scientific evidence shows that matter produces consciousness. Read Dr David Chalmer’s articles“ Hard problem of consciousness “ !
Consciousness cannot be proved but can be only realised. Any words or descriptions make consciousness an OBJECT whereas CONSCIOUSNESS is the very SUBJECT itself.
Too big a topic to continue. I will stop here.