I cannot stress this enough, you don't want to use the system administrator account as your daily driver. You become significantly more vulnerable to malware for even having that account enabled, and if you do somehow get infected with malware, it becomes easier for said malware to affect protected system files. If you do anything important on your PC, it's not worth the performance gains.
Instead, this is possibly caused by all the telemetry that might not affect the administrator account. Debloating your Windows install manually might recover the performance.
I suspected something like this might be the case. Hopefully the Windows update AMD hinted at can bring those performance gains to the local administrator account.
I force disabled antivirus and windows update and oh no, I'm so vulnerable now. I only enable them if I want to. If you don't download weird files from untrusted sites then it's not going to affect you anyway, and that's how Administrator should operate, that you know how to protect yourself. If I really want to try something shady I use it in a sandbox or virtual machine. Edit: Yes, I know about exploits, but you have to be really unlucky to be affected by that. If I hear about a huge vulnerability then I update the OS, it's not like I never do that, I just hate when windows forces updates by itself so I disabled it, I enable it manually whenever I need giving me more performance and control over the system. Same thing with Defender, I enable it and do scan once in a while but I disable it manually because I don't want it to turn on by itself. Also I have firewall enabled, that's the only security measure I do not disable because you truly cannot feel safe without it as that's the biggest hole for all the exploits. Also many browser exploits that happen on certain websites can't affect every browser on the planet, and also are fixed in updates. Some browsers are more secure than others, Brave for example. However the last time I've seen shit like this happen was youareanidiot on internet explorer and times changed since that. Never been exploited by any of those. Daily driving windows this way for at least 10 years and I never got any issues.
No. We're seeing such terrible performance because too many people fell for the DLSS/FSR gimmick. So, they keep buying poorly optimized games and/or brand new GPU's that aren't strong enough. That's why this gen of GPU's were the same or worse than last gen. It's cheaper to use software and make more money by upping the price anyway. DLSS/FSR should never be mentioned when reviewing new GPU"s and new games. DLSS/FSR was meant to help older GPU's. It started out consumer friendly. Then Nvidia keeps the new stuff locked to the new cards that shouldn't need the gimmick. Hopefully AMD keeps FSR going for old cards on both sides. 1080's are still going strong due to FSR.
@@TechRIP They were never designed to help older gpu's. Same stupid arguments. They were designed to enable real time ray tracing. Giving older gpu's some extra life is just a bonus. There's nothing gimmick about it. It works incredibly well especially at 4k. Rendering has always been about doing things smart and cheating whatever you can to achieve the best end result.
So a ton of gamers are suddenly using the disabled built-in admin to run everything, that's just lovely for security. They should hurry and fix this before it starts getting added to tweak guides.
@@truereaper4572I don't think "most gamers" at all. I am closely following gaming hardware for over 10 years now and never knew of this issue. Either it was only a really small niche use case or it really is just now revealed to be a Ryzen bug.
@@truereaper4572 Not just gamers. I do not know ONE PERSON who uses a local user account instead of an admin account on their machine... no one. Not even the security whizzes for the military who use Windows.
@@christopherkidwell9817 A normal user account with UAC is very different from the actual HIDDEN Admin account. So no, people haven't been using the actual admin account...
I'd absolutely love to see, Whether there's a difference between Windows 10/W11; Whether Intel processors see any similar benefit or not; Whether "run as administrator" during game launch provides the same uplift or not; If it only impacts ryzen cpus, where that leaves Z4 and Z5 in the overall hierarchy.
They did a W10 vs W11 comparison a couple weeks ago: ua-cam.com/video/abXKDUESFKs/v-deo.html W10 performed better, probably because W11 has this bug. I doubt W10 had this bug, but if it did, we've been needlessly losing FPS for 9 years. Thanks, Microsoft.
2 years ago I found that running exes as administrator improves CPU performance by 5-10%. Guru3D folks have known this since then. It applies to both Intel and AMD. You don't need to use an admin account. run as administrator works.
I think this might be caused by Windows' LUA (Limited User Account) feature. From Windows 8 onwards, even if you disable UAC from Control Panel, it won't actually disable it. It instead will suppress UAC prompts. But the underlying LUA system will remain enabled. However, the "Administrator" account has LUA completely disabled, meaning that every single software in the Administrator account will run with elevated privileges. It is possible to disable LUA system wide. If you set the HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\System\EnableLUA value to 0 (zero) and then reboot, the LUA feature will be completely disabled. Esentially every single admin account on the system will behave exactly like "Administrator" account. If possible, I think it's worth testing the Ryzen gaming performance with and without LUA feature enabled.
Funnily enough wanted to see what happens disabling LUA on my machine... This thing became stupidly snappy... On 5900x that is. Not sure about games. But obviously security risk. For some reason dropped memory usage by 5gb
Yep, that's the billion dollar question: To what extent does this affect Win 10 and older Zen architectures. Because iirc Win10 now only receives security updates, meaning if this bug exists it's not even going to be patched :/
Hiding the 7700X bar for a few seconds is such a tease... Steve found a new way to make the blue bar graphs more enticing :) And also I wonder how many viewers just skip around the video and jump to conclusions... :)
A couple months ago I build a new PC with a Ryzen 5 7600x, and the cpu benchmarks were always around 10-20% lower than what they should’ve been, along with lower than expected fps in games. I spent weeks trying to find the issue, along with trying to compensate with overclocking (managed to get -30 PBO), but the only thing I found was every time I reinstalled windows 11, the cpu benchmarks would be fixed, even higher than usual because of my overclocks. But after a few days, the benchmarks randomly switch back to 10-20% lower, for no reason. I eventually gave up because I couldn’t find any solution, until this video. Everything you described was exactly what I was experiencing, and after switching to a local administrator, my performance is great again. I’m honestly just really relieved that my system wasn’t just cooked, so thankyou 🙏🏻. I hope windows releases that bug fix for regular user accounts soon :)
Ny drivers were RANDOMLY crashing every week or month. I downloaded everything correctly, updated windows nd sht. Sht was ridiculous so i went back to windows 10 and there have been no crashes in 6 months orso. This Administrator bs might be the issue perhaps?
Please don't use that for the extra performance as you are opening yourself up to more security issues using that account. It isn't by happenstance that account was not being used.
@@notjustforhackers4252Ah yes Linux which… 2% of gamers use according to Steam? Why would they potentially double the production time on their videos to prove what tons of UA-camrs have already shown (Linux can be slightly faster under certain circumstances)?
@@mr.ballstone1914 Well for one, if this indeed turns out to be an issue with the way Windows is set up, with Linux delivering a consistent better performance, I'm quite sure the reach outlets like HUB have could help raise that number. Most of the heavy lifting has been done already, with Proton working miracles for compatibility. Gaming on Linux has never been any easier. Same for setting up a dual-boot OS, even if you were just to install Steam and play games on it in order to not having to deal with migrating your full PC to an, admittedly complex and new OS. Thanks for pointing out that others have already done that work though. PCGH, although in German, had some rather interesting results :)
One thing about this that is unnerving: when I took basic networking in college almost 28 years ago now, the instructor "firmly" told us to NEVER us an Administrator account like a user account. Create a user account, gove is Administrator rights, and then only use the Administrator account for "emergencie." True, that was back in the days of Novell; but, one would think Windows 11 would be smart enough to say that a user account with administrator rights/privileges would be the same as using the Administrator account.
That's mental. This also means that the 7700X is a significantly* better CPU than we thought, but it was plagued by a bug for a long time now. Which asks a few questions, are Intel affected by this? Are Zen 1, 2, 3 affected by this?
AMD: Steve! Are you Admin or just admin? Steve: I will test them all. AMD to themselfs: Yes! He will test both accounts! Steve: Now lets test both CPUs on those accounts...
@@myne00 I was actually alive to use XP unlike most of you, it required critical updates nearly every single week. To say it had security is like saying mall cops are real cops. Microsoft began investing in cybersecurity heavily when they started developing windows defender.
You have got to be kidding me? The answer is NO. Is this just because, "Wendall from Level 1 tech's said this..".. lol The guy is "Level 1". Has a long way to go, until anything he says is credible. This is insane.
No they don't. Some years before they found a bug in Windows that reduced the performance of the Ryzen CPUs, and the performance decrease was about 10 to 20% for tasks demanding all the cores. They found because the program is faster on Linux. The problem was from windows not distributing all the tasks correctly between all the Ryzen cores.
@@luisff7030 They do. Its known in OC scene for long time, all record breaking OCs are done under elevated admin account on both platforms for years, it always increased performance. Maybe its a bug affecting AMD more but i doubt it. Removing layers of security will always result in increased performance/lowered overhead.
I've often felt that Microsoft and Intel have a stronger relationship than AMD does. It seemed more evident with the Intel 12th gen pcore & score intro. This doesn't excuse AMD's bungling of their product launches, misinforming in benchmarks, and general bugs
I feel the same with Dell and Intel as well. Love triangle between Microsoft, Dell and Intel. They are kind of the OG's so that relationship is more established but feel like they keep AMD as an odd "forth wheel" somhow.
You aren't wrong. Microsoft and Intel have had a famously strong relationship, with Intel providing processors to promote windows computers, and windows being optimized to run especially well on Intel. That's not to say Microsoft hates AMD though, considering Microsoft Xbox was one of the companies that saved AMD, by choosing AMD for the Xbox processors.
It maybe a feature. windows does weird things with app virtualization and containers and virtual memory addresses to make malware have less access to the system. My guess is administrator turns that off but opens up probably over 500+ security holes which Microsoft has to do weird stuff like app virtualization so it won't break compatibility with ancient stuff written 30 years ago. Windows is a mess for this reason
I can't really see why changing scheduling behavior would be needed in this instance. If the computer is domain joined you could make the case that the domain admin (not the local admin) should have elevated scheduling rights in all scenarios to prevent malware from bugging the system down to the point the admin can't get anything done (basically a denial of service attack on CPU runtime). But on consumer devices where the local admin account isn't even enabled I can't really wrap my head around why the appointed admin account gets a different treatment.
@@Main_Protagonist That's not necessarily a good thing. If you look at old native releases you'll find that most of them won't work properly anymore. Be it because they were using OSS as a sound back end or relying on 10 year old system libraries that simply aren't shipped anymore. This happens to *some* games on Windows as well, but as long as they're compiled for Win 2k up there's a high chance that they'll run just fine. There's a joke how WinAPI is the most stable API on Linux. Except it's not actually a joke. Targeting and maintaining native Linux versions for closed-source games (instead of targeting a specific version of Proton) is a fool's errand. Unless maybe they provide an open source abstraction to system libraries so that people can just recompile that thing on newer systems to keep the game running. But I agree that in $CURRENT_YEAR with the Steam Deck around there's already hardly any excuse to not make newly developed games run fine on Proton.
@@Main_Protagonist Nah, I don't want Linux API rot to destroy my older games. Win32/DirectX etc etc are stable interfaces that won't break for the most part. Unlike the ever shifting sands of Linux. I use PopOS by the way.
@@qwesx "That's not necessarily a good thing" Indeed, it would devastate Microsoft because they can't force you to take telemetry or force a license install on every PC (because pyracsee!!!), and like you said, that is a bad thing. For those that get wealth off stocks of Microsoft. Other people, not so much.
@@bobmcbob4399 Ah, so instead you want Windows API rot to destroy your games. And your printers. And your phone, etc.... Try running Max Payne on Windows. Old windows games work BETTER on Linux than Windows, more reliably. And the Windows team employed the SAMBA team to tell THEM how SMB worked, because they were clueless after all the team changes that Microsoft underwent. You don't use PopOS, you just complain about threats of not using Windows.
Steve said time and again that the performance will not improve, period. This was shown to be false with the performance already increasing from disabling SMT and running under admin account, with gaming on Linux showing further performance increases for the same title. I don't get why doesn't he simply come out and say that he was wrong instead of blaming some other people who were spreading misinformation. He literally was spreading misinformation he made up
@@NJ-wb1czwhat? AMD writes an review guide to their products. No where they say disable smt / use Linux / use hidden admin we fucked up. That he even takes the time to run all the bench again based on an "rumor" is impressive.
@@kueppe he makes incorrect claims about the future and provides false analysis. If he was actually just testing and providing the numbers then it would've been different. In fact, he even makes false claims about the present, about Linux in particular - claiming that Zen 5 performs better on "server" and "development" software when in fact the improvents are across the board, including gaming, regular productivity apps, and completely common apps like 7zip
This is not "good news". Windows 11 had this bug for YEARS, and it's depressing that AMD did not find out about it until now. You would think they would do everything they can to test Windows 11 with their CPUs in a wide range of scenarios. I hope this leads to a major change in how AMD does their testing.
@@TheGoncas2 We're so lucky to have a computer genius like you here! Please tell us all which security feature, which you say is disabled by the Windows 11 Administrator account, is affecting CPU performance in these cases. Thanks in advance for your service to the community.
@@TheGoncas2there is no technical reason why a normal user account should have less performance than a admin account, especially because a admin account still dont use the kernel space in anyway Even a admin account have to syscall like a normal user account to get extended permissions
I appreciate that you are breaking this news on the back of minimal testing - but have you tried just running the game/benchmark as administrator instead of logging in as administrator for the entire session? To do this you need to browse to the executable, shift and right click to get an extended context menu and select "Run as administrator" from the list. The program should then run with elevated privileges but I'm not 100% certain if it is technically identical to being logged in as admin. It is safer because everything else is run with ordinary privileges. There may be side effects, like not running through steam or other launchers. If it is effective, it is also possible to add the command line version of runas to shortcuts to save browsing for exes every time, but not for web links which is what steam puts on your desktop instead of a regular shortcut.
This is true, but it is mostly irrelevant. People need to wait for a Windows update instead of running software with elevated privileges just to get that few % performance gain (either with "Run as administrator" or with the Administrator account), and reviewers don't strictly need to concern themselves with the difference in privileges between the two.
If you run a game as administrator from a user account, you aren't running it from the administrator account and are instead running it with elevated privileges from a user account.
I wonder if the perf hit is to do with the mitigations for speculative execution security issues. For example, KVA is not applied on Windows to 'Administrator level' processes. So, workloads that would be adversely affected by KVA would perform better when run elevated.
The built-in administrator is hidden in Windows by default for a reason. It used to be the default account for local users in Windows XP and earlier, and that meant that any program you run had elevated privileges to not just all of the critical system files, but also, with a restart they could also access the boot sector.
Haven't they also made changes to the scheduler to work better with AMD? And the changes for non-uniform cores may also have been because many ARM processors also have that design.
I've used the hidden admin account since windows 7 days a fair bit for some use cases. It is not a bug, that account bypasses several low-level security system calls (such as UAC) and therefore results in slightly more performance. However, it is much less secure and should not be used IMO. Any app has full access to the system.
If it's not a bug, then it's because Windows is a shit OS, permission validation isn't that expensive and should never show up in a profiler, Unix has been doing this since the 70s and those computers were extremely slow by todays standards. Valve is using Linux name spaces in a sandbox for extra security, and a Windows compatibility library translating to Linux API commands and running that as a normal user, and somehow still beating Windows lol.
@@Muppet-kz2nc IT pro here: The reason Windows NT3/3.5/4, Windows 2000 and Windows XP/Windows Server 2003 were routinely pwned was precisely for this reason. That you happen to use a workstation behind a router and (mostly) have a brain when it comes to cyber security doesn't change the fact that you're on a LAN with me, and you have the Local Administrator account enabled I can make your life several kinds of miserable unless you're running a professional IDS locally. Dad out.
The fact that a single release needs three reviews (so far) and yet still doesn't change much says a lot. Can't blame the testing here. I don't even wanna know how often Steve had to re-run the same test 😮
Fun fact, you can access the true Administrator account during OEM setup with a feature called Windows Audit Mode. Ctrl + Alt + F3 at first setup let's you login into that account and install drivers and software, then logout and go back to out of box setup. Then when you sell or give a way that computer and they finish that out of box setup, the admin level access account that they create is cloned from the Administrator account and has all those software show up in it.
We use this feature when my company buys new hardware, Audit mode is primarily used for capturing and deployment. Let's say you got a 100 fancy new workstation, you want to install Windows with a bunch of software and tweak some settings. Doing this for each device is very tedious and will require a lot of work, instead, we do this on a single device using the built in administrator account, then we capture an image of it, this image is an installable operating system that have all the stuff and tweaks you've installed, this saves time because you will only install the captured image and may do little tweaks afterwards. Deployment method may vary btw.
@@Thorsten_0911 The captured image is basically a windows installer that had the apps that I've installed on the 1st workstation , pre installed. Have you ever heard of those debloated windows ISOs or windows with office pre-installed? They are the result of the process I've explained in my previous comment, except I am, as an IT guy, makes them to reduce the needed time to adjust the settings and install the software for the 99 remaining workstations.
2 years ago I found that running exes as administrator improves CPU performance by 5-10%. Guru3D folks have known this since then. It applies to both Intel and AMD. You don't need to use an administrator account. You just need to run the exe as administrator. You can search for the Guru3d thread.
In user mode each Kernel request is checked for security allowance (extra processing), in admin mode each Kernel request is let through without security checking (less processing). Small difference could be the explanation.
@@OscarOliu the data center analysts. The people that just want to stick it in a rack and not ever see what it puts out. They are happy. Maybe that's what it's come to. Data centers, big data, AI is where the money's at. Frankly as a casual gamer I'll stick to my 5600G. I'm sure it sucks. But it's just entertainment
Uh... there's a little more to it than that, and you're mixing up the two kinds of user mode (the CPU enforced mode, and the kernel implemented model). Every single call from user space (CPU mode) has it's UID origin checked (kernel implementation) regardless of account privilege. What additional checking Windows does when it sees it's an account with Admin rights, as opposed to Local Administrator, is anyone's guess. Just wanted to make the distinction clear.
@@andersjjensen there's a lot more to it. It's a 40 year old Kernel that is more complex than can fit in any comment. The point remains. Going into an admin account for a margin of error improvements isn't what AMD promised with their 25-40% marketing. The tools used in these benchmarks simply cannot give an explanation, they're too simplistic.
This is exactly why testing at my job NEVER EVER uses built-in admin account, but instead a normal user (both with and without admin rights). The Windows builtin admin account is something that should never be used for anything other than obscure recovery and debug operations. If AMD didn't find this because their internal testing runs using builtin admin account (with UAC off, probably), they failed seriously hard. And yes, Microsoft is also doing something very wrong, but...
Fully agree. It's a legacy blunder of the "only nerds with admin knowledge installs OS:s era" that Microsoft hasn't fixed theee types of problems (it probably affects more areas than performance in games..)
The builtin Administrator account was UAC turned off Under default setting a standard local admin account has UAC turned on. UAC was introduced with Windows Vista. With UAC turned on every administrator account (except the builtin one) will still execute all applications with standard user rights. But an application (like an installer) can request admin rights by throwing an UAC prompt that the user has to manually accept. The only exception is changing most setting with builtin apps like control panel. If you want to run a software with administrator priviledges you can: a) Unlock the builtin Administrator account b) Disable UAC c) Right click the game exe and choose "run as adminstrator" d) Right click the game exe, choose Properties, go to compatibility tab and select "run this program as amn administrator"
Bizarre that the hidden, inbuilt admin account gets this (btw don't use it for routine things, it's not intended for that), esp since this account has existed for decades. Not worth it for a 1% improvement anyway All that, doesn't stop Zen 5 from being a sideways step
Someone pointed out that Windows was, for some reason, rapidly moving processes between cores and CCDs and people shit on him and told him he didn't know anything. It was a wild bug he noticed though. Like many cores spiking from 0 to 100% incredibly rapidly, but only one or 2 at a time.
@@PepsiMagt for sure, but the scale of this seems different to previous gens (windows games 20% faster on linux isnt right), and heterogenious cores are commonplace these days
@@Antagon666 It's just as much intelshittery, then, as Windows also jumps P cores to keep clocks higher (which is another way of saying "prevent overheating"). The issue is that Linux can figure out how to jump cores within the same CCD, and if it does decide to move CCD it moves all related threads at once. Windows' behavior completely knackers L3 cache coherency.
I just tested this and my 7950x3d + 4080S is getting about 15% better performance in 2077, Warhammer 3, and RDR2. Only ran each benchmark twice. Still absolutely wild. I'm once again shocked at just how terrible Windows is, and once again actively wishing there was literally any other option that worked seamlessly with both productivity workloads and gaming. I hate M$ so much, just when you think they can't possibly be any more inept or incompetent something like this pops up on the radar.
You're giving up security for performance. As much as I hate Microsoft, in this case the solution that AMD proposes is not something most users should rely on.
I’m skeptical that it’s a bug, it’s a known difference that apps would have a very slight performance increase when running with the local admin account. There’s some overhead with the user account control stuff. So here’s the question, do you see a slight increase in performance with Intel CPUs under the same conditions? Without answering that, the conclusion might be a bit premature, gamers shouldn’t be compelled to always login as the local admin.
My question is whether some rights check is being triggered over and over, if it's a difference in encapsulation or some additional level of indirection. If it's a check that only needs to be done once (or at least not as frequently) then it's something that can be fixed, but if it's about the local account operating inside a security membrane that the admin account doesn't have to deal with, then it might be pretty fundamental.
I would wager Win 10 probably doesn;t use the ccd's properly with 3dvcache. I only use Windows 11 on modern systems for things like and the pcore/ecore intel thread director. Windows 10 is a decade old now with minor updates since 2015.
@@timgibney5590 You can always use Process Lasso and bind the games to the correct cores yourself. I do this one Win10 with my 5900X for years now. For example for UE4 titles I use a CPU set that limits the game to the stronger CCD and also limit the threads for the strongest core or two cores to one. That usually gives me about 5% more FPS. Sometimes even 10%. Though they are also games were I don't limit it like this. For example Forza Horizon 5, which isn't much limited by the CPU anyway even on a 4090, but benefits from all 12 core / 24 threads during loading.
This got a lot crazier, the latest version of Win 11 24H2 gives All ryzen Zen3/4/5 CPUs 10% on average additional performance (up to 30% in some games) To think that all that performance was left on the table for years is crazy to me!
Do we know that Windows 10 doesn't also do this? Haven't there been multiple Win10 vs Win11 comparisons that showed nothing? So this may have been a generic Windows issue for quite a while.
This came with Windows Vista. Nothing new here. People were tired of having their XP machines ganked all the time, but because so much legacy software automatically assumes admin rights, without even checking, Microsoft had to get creative. So Windows Vista got a reputation for being dog slow. By Windows 7, which did improve performance in a few areas, people had stopped comparing to XP on the same hardware, so people were happy. But we all took a performance hit due to Microsofts absurdly stupid decision to not just teach people the concept of "this is your account password, and this is your special password for installing software and changing the system" when they went away from Windows 98 and gave consumers a reskinned Windows NT5.1.
@@Splarkszterlast time I used Linux it wasn't fun. To install a GPU driver I had to use commands, it wasn't fun to get it done but why not use something more convenient? Windows ads are a turn off though I wish Linux was more compatible with games and other programs.
@@noahw5887 Personally... I wish the Open Source Windows-compatible OS, *REACTos* would finally get rolling. It's windows, but without the bollocks. Side-note: for those unaware, Linux began as a unix-compatible or unix-like OS, started because Torvalds University lost the license to Unix, so he started making his own. Likewise, there actually exists a FULLY FEATURED, near-perfect compatible Open Source clone of another MS-os: FreeDos - a compatible of MS-DOS.
I assume that running on the hidden admin account disables User Access Control. That would be a security risk. Also, if everyone HAS to use that specific account to run software properly, we effectively remove one of the big features of Windows 9x/NT, which was allowing separate user accounts, able to install their own software and keep track of their own files without having to administer the whole user directory structure ourselves.
The primary reason enabling the admin account is dangerous is because the SID is well known and ending in 500 while others are 501, for base domain admin it's worse as the base admin has no lockout from bad password entries.
@@Mattia_98 Yes, it did. It wasn't as secure as modern accounts, but it was there. I remember having to use TweakUI to set it to automatically fill in my password when I logged in. And you'd still see the login window.
@@Mattia_98 Windows 9x may have defaulted to a single account automatically logged in with no password, and it may have lacked security features to protect files from other users, but it absolutely did have the option to create multiple user accounts with passwords and a default file structure for those accounts.
Disabling UAC is not dangerous. Opening dangerous programs is. Disabling UAC is such a convenience, that popup is so annoying and completely unnecessary for experienced users.
Does this happen in Win10 as well? I know technicaly those CPU are only Win11 certified, but, would local vs admin accounts give the same boost, or the bug in Win10 does not show?
Same, I'm gonna run some cyberpunk benchmarks on my system and see if there's any change Edit: only game I have installed with a canned benchmark is Cyperpunk and the difference was less than 1% (also probably GPU bound)
I'm curious about that too. You shouldn't run applications as admin unless absolutely necessary, but doing it per-application is still safer than running every application as admin!
Listening to the description of the problem, I suspect that it isn't a "bug", that is something that occurs due to unintended consequences of code. I'm guessing that slow down is due to something intended to increase security. In that regard, it's designed to operate that way and so likely there is no fix.
What so many security reasons? I'm constantly hearing people claim this but not a single one, says what security risks admin account opens up to us. In a real admin account the risks you have, are the same OS's like Windows XP add, risks that can be solved with just a good antivirus, a good firewall and intelligence from part of the user.
@@Argoon1981 It is mostly an issue that previously trusted sources will now no longer need security checks to download... anything really. Which is good for stuff like singleplayer games which are not receiving or sending data. But once you get a bad download of any kind, it will immediately be installed and you will be f*cked. Your antivirus may or may not notice it, and if it does not you are cooked because your system will not do any check or give you a warning of any kind. All it takes is you giving permissions once and the app or program can download and install stuff without permission 24/7. Any bad actor can use this very obvious exploit to push malware on you. And all it takes is gaining access to a previously trusted source. Now is this guaranteed to cause a problem? No. But this is taking on elevated risk for no good reason. Especially for anybody who is not as experienced as they may think, and accidentally clicks on something wrong. Or a multiplayer game gets breached and bad data is sent. Or maybe a singleplayer game gets patched and has malware somehow. Crazier things have happened. Most competitive multiplayer games already have incredibly intrusive anti cheats that require kernel access.
Looking at the Steam hardware survey Windows 10 only accounts for 50.16% and 11 is at 45.81% at the moment, so not a lot in it. Would be interesting to see if this affects 10 though.
Still currently Win 10 is more relevant and less buggy, Win 11 does not yet even have Win 10 feature parity but it slowly gets better, not recommended to use where stability is desired.
Credit for thoroughness here and testing more than one generation, . This a really odd bug, I hope we get a technical explanation of what is causing it because I don't ever recall software behaving like that before.
So this means that Ryzen can be wayyyy faster in general? We need X3D chips retested with this profile on. Also, NO ONE SHOULD EVER RUN THIS PROFILE, IT'S AN INSANE SECURITY RISK.
i wonder if disabling uac has the same effect as running as the actual user administrator, or for that matter for a game it will work with right click run as administrator
One thing that does not relate to this video, but does relate to Ryzen 9xxx vs Windows in general is that under Linux new Ryzen shines in virtually all workloads as shown in tests on Phoronix. Btw - what you are mentioning at the end MAY be related to the bug that JayzTwoCents found that can massively affect performance of multi-die CPUs. But that is more of an AMD uninstaller bug combined with BIOS settings problem.
AMD failed to mention this to reviewers with the review units, that explains even they themselves didn't know about it. They could've taken this seriously, at the end of the day it hurts AMD more than anyone.
Yes and and I firmly believe reviewers should've ignored it. Running the actual Admin account is a well known security risk. Also it's extremely likely that it affects all CPUs including Intel, so it might not really change any comparisons after all.
Oh this is mighty fascinating. Being as I already sandbox my browser, chat, video player, image players etc I'm going to give this a try on my 5800X3D.
It suppose to be another way. There have been hidden Admin account from Windows Vista, but Microsoft try really hard to remove that options from users (Home edition). I would guess, they *will* lock and hide that account from Windows 11
Either way - Elevated Command prompt (Admin): X: et user /active:yes Using Microsoft PowerShell: Enable-LocalUser "username" (- unlock - when locked or - enable - when disabled)
Honestly this makes things worse not better. They have been selling 7000 series for nearly 2 years and because of an admin bug they have been missing out some decent performance gaps. The results still show the 9000 series performance still performs often the same, sometimes worse and sometimes better than the 7000 so still no hidden uplift for Zen 5 even with this bug solved.
They run faster on Linux... IMO a OS shouldn't have any effect on the speed of a hardware but in this case it has, Windows is pushing back CPU's because of all inhouse spyware it has. We should demand Microsoft to remove that stuff and not take extra precious hardware resources from the user.
@@Argoon1981 MS has dominated the market way too long, would be nice if there was a serious easy-to-use and compatible alternative to Windows for normal, unadvanced, pc users/gamers.. hopefully Linux will become more homogenous and programmers will join hands in making less and better distributions. Now there's too much choice for the average user, they can't see the wood for the trees.
@@hiriotapa1983 there's no real incentive to join. It's not a corporation but regular people who are interested in doing things. And their interests and opinions differ. If a project doesn't interest me, I won't spend my personal time on it. It's like saying that Olympic athletes should come together and push one sport forward instead of training for different ones
@@Argoon1981 I mean the spyware definitely has a impact but generally from the limited tests on gaming on Linux it seems to have very similar performance on games that actually have Linux versions. I would be interested if a reviewer spent the time to review 13th gen or older intel CPUs and Ryzen 5000 series or older on the windows admin vs normal windows 11 vs Linux. See if there is any big differences. Would take so much time and you need all of those CPUs doubt anyone owns all of those CPUs has the time to do those tests sadly.
Not quite related but something weird is going in: Phoronix has Zen 5 10% faster in 7-zip over Zen 4, while Windows tests show a regression. I just don't understand how this is possible, operating systems shouldn't "do" anything to a process like 7-zip.
Steve has shown that Phoronix's 7950X chips is weirdly slower than his, that's why it makes the 9950X look better. Phoronix's Linux test and Steve's W11 test on 7-Zip have the same score for the 9950X.
Any multi-threaded process has the OS "doing" a lot of things. For example, if a thread was running on a specific core but the OS suddenly decides to run some system task on that core, the thread might get bumped to a different core, which involves copying a lot of data and / or potentially getting a lot of cache misses in the next memory operations. And if the OS is enforcing per-core memory isolation (for security), that becomes even more noticeable.
This is the beauty of Companies listening to independent parties like Hardware Unboxed. Access to more Data. Companies want to produce competitive products which bring customers back, finding and fixing problems or potential problems allows companies to improve quality and perceived customer focused care. Having independent reviewers who are not 'paid' to produce favourable results is an edge which companies should consider as a potential edge on competitors who pay for 'good' reviews.
This is nothing new, we seen this since the Windows 7 days, debloated Windows always has 5 to 10% better performance in gaming, thats why custom Windows like Ghost Spectre, Lite and even LTSC are so popular with gamers, because it removes majority of the unnecessary processes that run in the background, some like Ghost Spectre even adjust the system itself so its prioritises more of its resources on gaming applications which can cause system instability when you try to run multiple such high demanding applications, lets say you run a game, then Premiere Pro for a video render and then a browser with 50 tabs, most people wont do this however so its a non issue, but Microsoft does indeed have to account for such a scenario hence why there is always a bit of power reserved for the OS itself to prevent such instability issues.
There have been many people who show that "debloating" Windows 11 makes no difference in gaming performance. In some cases removing Xbox Game Bar can hurt performance.
You didn't see gains on Windows 7 in frames, but latency. You would disable Superfetch and a few other services, disable DWM etc. Windows 8 had huge changes to Windows internally trying to save power at all costs and wrecked latency. Such as disabledynamictick Windows 10 and now 11 has continually piled onto this, along with security patches, why we can see up to 20% performance difference in CPU demanding games (particularly source games) on Windows 7 vs Windows 11.
@@griffin1366 The Ghost Spectre version does most of this for you, and like you pointed out, Source games benefit the most out of it, he has multiple videos on it, my own experience this is mostly true, latency issues go down, I use Ghost Spectre even on my work laptop because I do a lot of audio work and without Ghost Spectre that same laptop was borderline useless if I had anything other than the audio software open but with it, I can actually have multiple programs without much issue.
Steve never thought about the possibility that this isn't a bug, but it's just Windows disabling security features in the Administrator account, which frees up CPU resources. But he had to rush the video.
I doubt it is a "windows bug" so much as just windows crapware such as random auto-installed market apps being forced on normal user accounts but not on the admin account. On a tangent, instead of using the hidden administrator account, I'd be curious to see you or anyone test with "Run as administrator" on the normal account. If that also gets a performance boost, I guess my theory would be wrong. Another test could be to have both accounts logged in at once with "switch user" instead of "logout" from the normal account. I'd expect that to lower the results you get from the administrator account too.
@@user-fi1nv8mf4l Soon? Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC 2021 will be supported till 2032! 🤣🤣😂 PS": IoT Enterprise is the best version you can easily activate it Permanently with 2 sec through powersell (HWID Digital License) ^) It contains only Edge and defender. Other OS version are intended for beta testers.
There's a widely embraced corporate ethic that corporations cannot admit to mistakes. This isn't taught in business school and yet the rule is followed adamantly, that's why you will rarely see an exception to the rule. My personal belief is that it's bad for business long term. I think that a corporation who won't admit to mistakes becomes resented the same way a human who won't admit to making a mistake becomes resented. I think AMD should announce that they messed the launch up, and they're going to try hard to improve. That sounds like typhoid fever to an AMD executive, only because they cannot empathize with the way we'd interpret it.
@@autohmae AMD messed up for me because they are acting like Intel. Why does Zen 5 have a 200 - 250% increase in inter-CCD core-to-core latency? Can you explain it? That's a severe regression from Zen 4. That is something Intel would do.
@@zyxyuv1650 Let me ask it this way: if Linux did increase in performance on the new AMD CPU and Windows did not. Is that mainly a Windows problem or an AMD problem ? (I'm certain MS and AMD are working hard on fixing it as we speak).
@@autohmae It's an AMD problem for not predicting and preparing for the unavoidable and inevitable outcome that everyone was going to run into this problem and it would compromise the launch. Ultimately it's AMD's responsibility to ensure a good launch. That includes reaching out to companies like Microsoft, NVIDIA to ensure compatibility with AMD hardware well ahead of time before the launch. Now I've answered your questions twice and you did not answer my question.
Bloatware and telemetry you get with a Windows install changes often. Whereas kernel space vs. user space is a separate matter. Kindest regards, neighbours and friends.
@@vincentvega3093 Huh? Why? And last I checked the same was said about Intel's new P+E cores architecture in the 12th gen and yet now Win 10 handles it just as well and so does Linux. If not even better because Win 11 gets more and more bloated.
@Hardcore_Remixer How is windows 11 more bloated? Like i geniunly want to know. You'd think having more duplicate settings via control panel and actual settings and countless ads shoved into the control planel on 10 would equate to more bloat but nope, there is something I'm clearly missing.
I have always loved your in-depth knowledge & process for providing real examples in an unbiased manner! As for the ADMIN accounts in Windows. with a warning to folks that try this out (I know this will happen). ADMIN accounts allow for unrestricted 0 ring access to systems running Windows. Which allows ADMIN full R/W access to those threads that require this level of access. Under normal conditions with known safe applications, this is a non-issue. However, applications exist that are purpose built for ADMIN access that may take that opportunity to do bad things. I would highly recommend that anyone using the ADMIN account access level for testing to do this either on a VM or a non-critical test system, isolated from your network devices (air-gapped) where possible. While I won't go into the specifics of how or why, this is a point that I think may add value to the conversion. Great work, again love the content! long time subscriber... ok, well maybe a really long time ;) Kudos!
Steve, imagine it like this: The hidden Admin account is like the Admin User in WindowsXP. You can do whatever you want to do. Much like how you can still do it in Linux. With Vista, there was a user account with admin rights, to keep new users (people that are new to pc handling) from deleting important registry entries, system files and also to reduce malware acces to system files when executed on the "admin user". Ever since then, the panic calls from grandmothers who "deleted the internet" (they deleted the internet explorer) have basically stopped.
I cannot stress this enough, you don't want to use the system administrator account as your daily driver. You become significantly more vulnerable to malware for even having that account enabled, and if you do somehow get infected with malware, it becomes easier for said malware to affect protected system files. If you do anything important on your PC, it's not worth the performance gains.
yes this this this 10000000%
it would be a huge problem when all zen5 owners had to use the administrator account
Instead, this is possibly caused by all the telemetry that might not affect the administrator account. Debloating your Windows install manually might recover the performance.
I suspected something like this might be the case. Hopefully the Windows update AMD hinted at can bring those performance gains to the local administrator account.
no need for admin, just offline account
I force disabled antivirus and windows update and oh no, I'm so vulnerable now. I only enable them if I want to. If you don't download weird files from untrusted sites then it's not going to affect you anyway, and that's how Administrator should operate, that you know how to protect yourself. If I really want to try something shady I use it in a sandbox or virtual machine.
Edit: Yes, I know about exploits, but you have to be really unlucky to be affected by that. If I hear about a huge vulnerability then I update the OS, it's not like I never do that, I just hate when windows forces updates by itself so I disabled it, I enable it manually whenever I need giving me more performance and control over the system. Same thing with Defender, I enable it and do scan once in a while but I disable it manually because I don't want it to turn on by itself. Also I have firewall enabled, that's the only security measure I do not disable because you truly cannot feel safe without it as that's the biggest hole for all the exploits. Also many browser exploits that happen on certain websites can't affect every browser on the planet, and also are fixed in updates. Some browsers are more secure than others, Brave for example. However the last time I've seen shit like this happen was youareanidiot on internet explorer and times changed since that. Never been exploited by any of those. Daily driving windows this way for at least 10 years and I never got any issues.
Steve has sit down, everything IS fine now
Was gonna say the same 😂
I needed to calm things down :D
he's just tired
STOP! lol. 🤦♂
He's tired from all the constant standing
Between Windows and terrible gaming optimization, we're losing so much performance in these days
Yeah, Windows 11 is a disgrace.
just debloat all winfsoft and u will gain 20-30% more performance
No. We're seeing such terrible performance because too many people fell for the DLSS/FSR gimmick. So, they keep buying poorly optimized games and/or brand new GPU's that aren't strong enough. That's why this gen of GPU's were the same or worse than last gen. It's cheaper to use software and make more money by upping the price anyway. DLSS/FSR should never be mentioned when reviewing new GPU"s and new games. DLSS/FSR was meant to help older GPU's. It started out consumer friendly. Then Nvidia keeps the new stuff locked to the new cards that shouldn't need the gimmick. Hopefully AMD keeps FSR going for old cards on both sides. 1080's are still going strong due to FSR.
Come game on Linux with proton. We have cookies.
@@TechRIP They were never designed to help older gpu's. Same stupid arguments. They were designed to enable real time ray tracing. Giving older gpu's some extra life is just a bonus. There's nothing gimmick about it. It works incredibly well especially at 4k. Rendering has always been about doing things smart and cheating whatever you can to achieve the best end result.
So a ton of gamers are suddenly using the disabled built-in admin to run everything, that's just lovely for security. They should hurry and fix this before it starts getting added to tweak guides.
Most gamers have been doing it since forever, it's not a new phenomenon by any means.
@@truereaper4572I don't think "most gamers" at all. I am closely following gaming hardware for over 10 years now and never knew of this issue. Either it was only a really small niche use case or it really is just now revealed to be a Ryzen bug.
@@truereaper4572 Not just gamers. I do not know ONE PERSON who uses a local user account instead of an admin account on their machine... no one.
Not even the security whizzes for the military who use Windows.
Iam seeing growing reasons to go completely off line with a gaming pc anyway
@@christopherkidwell9817 A normal user account with UAC is very different from the actual HIDDEN Admin account. So no, people haven't been using the actual admin account...
You have to add testings for different moon phases
Add in for solar flares and sun spot activity too.
When the mooon is in the 7th house. And Jupiter aligns in with Sol. And the truuuuth is in the stars tonight. The tests will be awe-some!!
I'd absolutely love to see,
Whether there's a difference between Windows 10/W11;
Whether Intel processors see any similar benefit or not;
Whether "run as administrator" during game launch provides the same uplift or not;
If it only impacts ryzen cpus, where that leaves Z4 and Z5 in the overall hierarchy.
They did a W10 vs W11 comparison a couple weeks ago: ua-cam.com/video/abXKDUESFKs/v-deo.html
W10 performed better, probably because W11 has this bug. I doubt W10 had this bug, but if it did, we've been needlessly losing FPS for 9 years. Thanks, Microsoft.
In the past Windows 11 was better than Windows 10, I checked a bunch of people's benchmarks from 8 and more months ago.
@@dividion8102 It would seem this would have been something which is slower in latest versions of Windows 11.
2 years ago I found that running exes as administrator improves CPU performance by 5-10%. Guru3D folks have known this since then. It applies to both Intel and AMD. You don't need to use an admin account. run as administrator works.
Wendell also mentioned running games with administrators permission increased performance
Probably because there is a bit less security, which can slow things down.
So an "Administrator" account runs any .exe with Admin rights. That's not advisable.
@PowellCat745 yes indeed, Wendell was the first one to come out publicly with this issue in his 9950x review, but also, nice one from HU team. 😀
Wendell is competent
Ah yes. Just run all your programs as root and it'll give you more FPS. Brilliant OS design, Microsoft.
So you are telling me that the 7800X3D could be even faster?
Yup
Someone needs to test this ASAP. I dont have one to test it myself :(
Yes few percent ;)
Even my 7600x could be faster.
@@kkrolik2106 How many percent exactly and on what game?
After testing these CPU's like 5 times in a week, Steve never wants to hear the word "9700X" ever again
I think this might be caused by Windows' LUA (Limited User Account) feature. From Windows 8 onwards, even if you disable UAC from Control Panel, it won't actually disable it. It instead will suppress UAC prompts. But the underlying LUA system will remain enabled. However, the "Administrator" account has LUA completely disabled, meaning that every single software in the Administrator account will run with elevated privileges.
It is possible to disable LUA system wide. If you set the HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\System\EnableLUA value to 0 (zero) and then reboot, the LUA feature will be completely disabled. Esentially every single admin account on the system will behave exactly like "Administrator" account. If possible, I think it's worth testing the Ryzen gaming performance with and without LUA feature enabled.
Funnily enough wanted to see what happens disabling LUA on my machine... This thing became stupidly snappy... On 5900x that is. Not sure about games. But obviously security risk. For some reason dropped memory usage by 5gb
Oh nooooooooooo, now Win10 and an 5800X3D needs adding to this testing!
You're evil man 😂
Second this 😅
I'd like to see a comparison between 10 and 11 knowing this bug now…
Yep, that's the billion dollar question: To what extent does this affect Win 10 and older Zen architectures. Because iirc Win10 now only receives security updates, meaning if this bug exists it's not even going to be patched :/
Windows 10 is already irrelevant. Support is ending next year.
Administrator is not administrator!! The everyday person is not going to turn that on.
The everyday person is not watching this kind of videos anyway ;-)
@@igorthelight exactly!!
Hiding the 7700X bar for a few seconds is such a tease... Steve found a new way to make the blue bar graphs more enticing :) And also I wonder how many viewers just skip around the video and jump to conclusions... :)
Giving me blue bar blue balls
😅😂 So true @@Malus1531
@@Malus1531 my glory bar is rock hard
Steve's legs finally gave out
good news = sit
bad news = stand
i think this is good news
False, Steve doesn’t have legs. There’s no evidence that Steve has legs.
Petition for Steve feet reveal and onlyfans @@davidbondy2250
@@davidbondy2250 We he built his "shed" that's actually house, we saw his legs.
@@darcrequiemhe used a body double for that
A couple months ago I build a new PC with a Ryzen 5 7600x, and the cpu benchmarks were always around 10-20% lower than what they should’ve been, along with lower than expected fps in games. I spent weeks trying to find the issue, along with trying to compensate with overclocking (managed to get -30 PBO), but the only thing I found was every time I reinstalled windows 11, the cpu benchmarks would be fixed, even higher than usual because of my overclocks. But after a few days, the benchmarks randomly switch back to 10-20% lower, for no reason. I eventually gave up because I couldn’t find any solution, until this video. Everything you described was exactly what I was experiencing, and after switching to a local administrator, my performance is great again. I’m honestly just really relieved that my system wasn’t just cooked, so thankyou 🙏🏻. I hope windows releases that bug fix for regular user accounts soon :)
Ny drivers were RANDOMLY crashing every week or month. I downloaded everything correctly, updated windows nd sht. Sht was ridiculous so i went back to windows 10 and there have been no crashes in 6 months orso.
This Administrator bs might be the issue perhaps?
Please don't use that for the extra performance as you are opening yourself up to more security issues using that account. It isn't by happenstance that account was not being used.
@@Stubbies2003 Shut up brev we go GYM
@@KillerBsan_ Then we look forward to you crying about your system being hacked due to your own ineptitude.
@@Stubbies2003 Hacking are for nerds my boi aint no nerds near me. Thanks for your concern though u a Gangsta.
I appreciate all the hard work reviewers have been doing, trying to get this messy situation straightened out. Thumbs up!
It's their own fault for not testing under Linux from the beginning.
@@notjustforhackers4252 don't be toxic
@@notjustforhackers4252Ah yes Linux which… 2% of gamers use according to Steam? Why would they potentially double the production time on their videos to prove what tons of UA-camrs have already shown (Linux can be slightly faster under certain circumstances)?
@@mr.ballstone1914 Well for one, if this indeed turns out to be an issue with the way Windows is set up, with Linux delivering a consistent better performance, I'm quite sure the reach outlets like HUB have could help raise that number.
Most of the heavy lifting has been done already, with Proton working miracles for compatibility. Gaming on Linux has never been any easier. Same for setting up a dual-boot OS, even if you were just to install Steam and play games on it in order to not having to deal with migrating your full PC to an, admittedly complex and new OS.
Thanks for pointing out that others have already done that work though. PCGH, although in German, had some rather interesting results :)
STEVE IS BRUTAL with the hidden 7700x bar. I could not stop laughing xD
AMD: "YES!! WE FOUND THE ISSUE!!!"
Steve: "We also tested Zen 4..."
AMD: *Walter White falling to the ground meme*
One thing about this that is unnerving: when I took basic networking in college almost 28 years ago now, the instructor "firmly" told us to NEVER us an Administrator account like a user account. Create a user account, gove is Administrator rights, and then only use the Administrator account for "emergencie." True, that was back in the days of Novell; but, one would think Windows 11 would be smart enough to say that a user account with administrator rights/privileges would be the same as using the Administrator account.
That's mental. This also means that the 7700X is a significantly* better CPU than we thought, but it was plagued by a bug for a long time now. Which asks a few questions, are Intel affected by this? Are Zen 1, 2, 3 affected by this?
I've used 5600x, 5900x and now 7950x3d and the inconsistent performance was always there.
Dare I say, I suspect that to be the case, has it always been like that or since MS did a patch at some point, most likely a security patch.
If it affects Zen 4 too, I'd imagine it'll affect at least other AMD chips. Probably Intel too if I had to guess, but maybe not to the same level.
So my oc 7700 with ddr5 6200 mt/s 30-36-36-48 with buildzoid timings is faster then stock 7800x3d
Crazy
@@GreatYamatanoOrochi So happy i moved to Linux with the purchase of my 5900X and didn't mis out on any performance
I can get the frustration Steve would feel after retesting again and finding out 1 percent increase in gap between Zen 4 and Zen 5.
but still, why windows losing performance on normal accounts?
tbf, I would be frustrated at Microsoft even more.
Still an important issue to investigate in general.
I like how the "surprise" graphs appears when you talk about them, it really helps with clarity!
AMD: Steve! Are you Admin or just admin?
Steve: I will test them all.
AMD to themselfs: Yes! He will test both accounts!
Steve: Now lets test both CPUs on those accounts...
AMD: oh sh….
ah, the god-mode account that runs anything you tell it to, otherwise known as 'a regular windows xp account'
otherwise known as being incredibly suitable to malicious software. Move on. XP has its problems too.
Lol XP had security. It was just easier to use the admin account.
You're thinking 95/98/ME
@@myne00 I was actually alive to use XP unlike most of you, it required critical updates nearly every single week.
To say it had security is like saying mall cops are real cops. Microsoft began investing in cybersecurity heavily when they started developing windows defender.
@@myne00 Mimimimimi?
@@BenderBendingRodriguezOFFICIAL I was admining NT4.
Try again.
A video on performance gains found with the 7800X3D would be quite interesting!
Now we need to know whether Intel CPUs also see a performance gain under the administrator account.
You have got to be kidding me? The answer is NO. Is this just because, "Wendall from Level 1 tech's said this..".. lol The guy is "Level 1".
Has a long way to go, until anything he says is credible. This is insane.
@@mrhassell Why would you believe anything Wendell has to say? He self-exposed himself with the whole 13th/14th gen videos as not knowing jack sh*t.
No they don't. Some years before they found a bug in Windows that reduced the performance of the Ryzen CPUs, and the performance decrease was about 10 to 20% for tasks demanding all the cores. They found because the program is faster on Linux.
The problem was from windows not distributing all the tasks correctly between all the Ryzen cores.
@@griffin1366 care to elaborate? all I heard was that he didn't know what VID-tables where.
@@luisff7030 They do. Its known in OC scene for long time, all record breaking OCs are done under elevated admin account on both platforms for years, it always increased performance. Maybe its a bug affecting AMD more but i doubt it. Removing layers of security will always result in increased performance/lowered overhead.
Most dangerous Steve's
1. Standing Steve with dark circles
2. Standing Grumpy Steve
3. Standing Steve
4. Standing happy steve
5. Monitor Steve
Monitor Steve = WFH Steve
Monitor Steve = escaped the Matrix
0. Steve standing in front of a Black Hole unafected.
Steve Steve
"With dark circles" 😂😂😂😂😭
If they had been doing that to get their results it should have been in the review guide
could this be the reason why win11 was somehow slowr than win10 in certain cases in your test a few days back?
I've often felt that Microsoft and Intel have a stronger relationship than AMD does. It seemed more evident with the Intel 12th gen pcore & score intro. This doesn't excuse AMD's bungling of their product launches, misinforming in benchmarks, and general bugs
I feel the same with Dell and Intel as well. Love triangle between Microsoft, Dell and Intel. They are kind of the OG's so that relationship is more established but feel like they keep AMD as an odd "forth wheel" somhow.
You aren't wrong. Microsoft and Intel have had a famously strong relationship, with Intel providing processors to promote windows computers, and windows being optimized to run especially well on Intel.
That's not to say Microsoft hates AMD though, considering Microsoft Xbox was one of the companies that saved AMD, by choosing AMD for the Xbox processors.
If MS and Intel are best mates Intel wouldn't need to release an app to boost fps in a few games.
that's what having 75% of the marketshare gives you...
There's a reason the term Wintel exists
Actually the fact that you can just log in to a different account for extra performance is way more fascinating than the entire cpu launch itself
This probaly explains why Wendell of Level1Tech/Level1Linux found that gaming on Linux (wine/proton) is abt 3 % faster than on Windows.
That was my first thought too when I saw this video.
@@mannydcbianco yeah because win is so bloated! with background apps, and bugs!
Would be interesting to see if this is a Windows 11 only issue or it also affects Windows 10
Disabling security features improved performance, its probably not a bug
Yes
It maybe a feature. windows does weird things with app virtualization and containers and virtual memory addresses to make malware have less access to the system. My guess is administrator turns that off but opens up probably over 500+ security holes which Microsoft has to do weird stuff like app virtualization so it won't break compatibility with ancient stuff written 30 years ago. Windows is a mess for this reason
I would say 7-8% performance decrease is too much and could be considered a bug
I can't really see why changing scheduling behavior would be needed in this instance. If the computer is domain joined you could make the case that the domain admin (not the local admin) should have elevated scheduling rights in all scenarios to prevent malware from bugging the system down to the point the admin can't get anything done (basically a denial of service attack on CPU runtime). But on consumer devices where the local admin account isn't even enabled I can't really wrap my head around why the appointed admin account gets a different treatment.
That would explain why gaming performance (in equally optimized games) has been slightly better in Linux for zen4 and even more so with zen5.
Also on Linux there is less system bloatware... gamers should start using Linux so devs care more and produce native Linux ports
@@Main_Protagonist That's not necessarily a good thing. If you look at old native releases you'll find that most of them won't work properly anymore. Be it because they were using OSS as a sound back end or relying on 10 year old system libraries that simply aren't shipped anymore. This happens to *some* games on Windows as well, but as long as they're compiled for Win 2k up there's a high chance that they'll run just fine. There's a joke how WinAPI is the most stable API on Linux. Except it's not actually a joke. Targeting and maintaining native Linux versions for closed-source games (instead of targeting a specific version of Proton) is a fool's errand. Unless maybe they provide an open source abstraction to system libraries so that people can just recompile that thing on newer systems to keep the game running.
But I agree that in $CURRENT_YEAR with the Steam Deck around there's already hardly any excuse to not make newly developed games run fine on Proton.
@@Main_Protagonist Nah, I don't want Linux API rot to destroy my older games. Win32/DirectX etc etc are stable interfaces that won't break for the most part. Unlike the ever shifting sands of Linux. I use PopOS by the way.
@@qwesx "That's not necessarily a good thing"
Indeed, it would devastate Microsoft because they can't force you to take telemetry or force a license install on every PC (because pyracsee!!!), and like you said, that is a bad thing. For those that get wealth off stocks of Microsoft.
Other people, not so much.
@@bobmcbob4399 Ah, so instead you want Windows API rot to destroy your games. And your printers. And your phone, etc.... Try running Max Payne on Windows.
Old windows games work BETTER on Linux than Windows, more reliably. And the Windows team employed the SAMBA team to tell THEM how SMB worked, because they were clueless after all the team changes that Microsoft underwent.
You don't use PopOS, you just complain about threats of not using Windows.
I propose that AMD let Steve lead their benchmarking department.
Like AMD's marketing dept wants honesty :P
Steve said time and again that the performance will not improve, period. This was shown to be false with the performance already increasing from disabling SMT and running under admin account, with gaming on Linux showing further performance increases for the same title.
I don't get why doesn't he simply come out and say that he was wrong instead of blaming some other people who were spreading misinformation. He literally was spreading misinformation he made up
@@DarthV506 They do, to have something to base their lies around.
@@NJ-wb1czwhat? AMD writes an review guide to their products. No where they say disable smt / use Linux / use hidden admin we fucked up. That he even takes the time to run all the bench again based on an "rumor" is impressive.
@@kueppe he makes incorrect claims about the future and provides false analysis. If he was actually just testing and providing the numbers then it would've been different. In fact, he even makes false claims about the present, about Linux in particular - claiming that Zen 5 performs better on "server" and "development" software when in fact the improvents are across the board, including gaming, regular productivity apps, and completely common apps like 7zip
This is not "good news". Windows 11 had this bug for YEARS, and it's depressing that AMD did not find out about it until now. You would think they would do everything they can to test Windows 11 with their CPUs in a wide range of scenarios. I hope this leads to a major change in how AMD does their testing.
Disabling security features improves performance. Should not be a surprise, and it's not a bug. This video is misinformation trash.
@@TheGoncas2 We're so lucky to have a computer genius like you here! Please tell us all which security feature, which you say is disabled by the Windows 11 Administrator account, is affecting CPU performance in these cases. Thanks in advance for your service to the community.
@@TheGoncas2there is no technical reason why a normal user account should have less performance than a admin account, especially because a admin account still dont use the kernel space in anyway
Even a admin account have to syscall like a normal user account to get extended permissions
I appreciate that you are breaking this news on the back of minimal testing - but have you tried just running the game/benchmark as administrator instead of logging in as administrator for the entire session? To do this you need to browse to the executable, shift and right click to get an extended context menu and select "Run as administrator" from the list. The program should then run with elevated privileges but I'm not 100% certain if it is technically identical to being logged in as admin. It is safer because everything else is run with ordinary privileges. There may be side effects, like not running through steam or other launchers. If it is effective, it is also possible to add the command line version of runas to shortcuts to save browsing for exes every time, but not for web links which is what steam puts on your desktop instead of a regular shortcut.
Is this true, fellow nerds, sounds plausable?
I'm curious of the 7800 X3D would get the same gains, although I'm not sure that I need them
This is true, but it is mostly irrelevant. People need to wait for a Windows update instead of running software with elevated privileges just to get that few % performance gain (either with "Run as administrator" or with the Administrator account), and reviewers don't strictly need to concern themselves with the difference in privileges between the two.
If you run a game as administrator from a user account, you aren't running it from the administrator account and are instead running it with elevated privileges from a user account.
@Nixola97 there's no way you're seriously trying to say it's unsafe to run steam games as admin
I wonder if the perf hit is to do with the mitigations for speculative execution security issues. For example, KVA is not applied on Windows to 'Administrator level' processes. So, workloads that would be adversely affected by KVA would perform better when run elevated.
Microsoft should release a windows gamer edition and remove all this security bs that affects performance.
The built-in administrator is hidden in Windows by default for a reason. It used to be the default account for local users in Windows XP and earlier, and that meant that any program you run had elevated privileges to not just all of the critical system files, but also, with a restart they could also access the boot sector.
Let’s not forget that for Windows 11, Microsoft overhauled their CPU scheduler just for Intel’s p and e cores to work better 😑
Which they now try to ditch, did i hear right? Or am i mistaken XD
Edit:Ok they ditch something else I was mistaken
Haven't they also made changes to the scheduler to work better with AMD? And the changes for non-uniform cores may also have been because many ARM processors also have that design.
@@Neuroszima Intel is gonna ditch hyper-threading, not the hybrid scheduler
@@yancgc5098I thought they were getting rid of e cores on a bunch of sku’s
@@Neuroszima No, they're not ditching it, they're making p core AND mix processors.
Please test Windows 10 vs 11 performance. So many people are saying Zen 5 runs better under Windows 10 without actually testing anything.
Apparently if you play games on zen 5 on the moon, lower gravity gives you 4.89% gaming boost as well.
Well zen 5% is officially not true, it's actctctually zen 6%
Intel core Ultra Copium
@@khaledelmor5428lmao how is it copium if it’s true? Sounds like you’re coping….
It's closer to +18-20% application perfornance in Linux, check Phoronix.
Gamers can wait for X3D.
Still don't see the drama.
If only the performance uplift was 5% prior...
@@khaledelmor5428 Bro you can't even spell it right 💀
I've used the hidden admin account since windows 7 days a fair bit for some use cases. It is not a bug, that account bypasses several low-level security system calls (such as UAC) and therefore results in slightly more performance. However, it is much less secure and should not be used IMO. Any app has full access to the system.
So, Win 98 level security then.
I've never had a virus. Get off the computer dad.
@@Muppet-kz2nc None that you know of, at least...
If it's not a bug, then it's because Windows is a shit OS, permission validation isn't that expensive and should never show up in a profiler, Unix has been doing this since the 70s and those computers were extremely slow by todays standards. Valve is using Linux name spaces in a sandbox for extra security, and a Windows compatibility library translating to Linux API commands and running that as a normal user, and somehow still beating Windows lol.
@@Muppet-kz2nc IT pro here: The reason Windows NT3/3.5/4, Windows 2000 and Windows XP/Windows Server 2003 were routinely pwned was precisely for this reason. That you happen to use a workstation behind a router and (mostly) have a brain when it comes to cyber security doesn't change the fact that you're on a LAN with me, and you have the Local Administrator account enabled I can make your life several kinds of miserable unless you're running a professional IDS locally. Dad out.
The fact that a single release needs three reviews (so far) and yet still doesn't change much says a lot. Can't blame the testing here.
I don't even wanna know how often Steve had to re-run the same test 😮
Fun fact, you can access the true Administrator account during OEM setup with a feature called Windows Audit Mode. Ctrl + Alt + F3 at first setup let's you login into that account and install drivers and software, then logout and go back to out of box setup. Then when you sell or give a way that computer and they finish that out of box setup, the admin level access account that they create is cloned from the Administrator account and has all those software show up in it.
This is VERY useful for me. Thank you!
We use this feature when my company buys new hardware, Audit mode is primarily used for capturing and deployment.
Let's say you got a 100 fancy new workstation, you want to install Windows with a bunch of software and tweak some settings. Doing this for each device is very tedious and will require a lot of work, instead, we do this on a single device using the built in administrator account, then we capture an image of it, this image is an installable operating system that have all the stuff and tweaks you've installed, this saves time because you will only install the captured image and may do little tweaks afterwards. Deployment method may vary btw.
So that's how SIs are doing, good info.
I don't really get it I'm afraid. Could you explain a bit more why this is useful or how it works? Thank you and sorry for being dense.
@@Thorsten_0911 The captured image is basically a windows installer that had the apps that I've installed on the 1st workstation , pre installed. Have you ever heard of those debloated windows ISOs or windows with office pre-installed? They are the result of the process I've explained in my previous comment, except I am, as an IT guy, makes them to reduce the needed time to adjust the settings and install the software for the 99 remaining workstations.
I just saw this on another place, running a certain game "as administrator" on a normal/admin account gave a 5% performance boost.
Wendel from Level1Tech
@@MaxIronsThirdvideo link?
cant link, youtube removes comments, but its around 4 minute mark (benchmarks, cyberpunk) in their 9900x & 9950x review video @g9204
@@g9204 google
2 years ago I found that running exes as administrator improves CPU performance by 5-10%. Guru3D folks have known this since then. It applies to both Intel and AMD. You don't need to use an administrator account. You just need to run the exe as administrator. You can search for the Guru3d thread.
When Microsoft fixes it, it seems like Windows 11 will finally get the performance it lost from Windows 10.
In user mode each Kernel request is checked for security allowance (extra processing), in admin mode each Kernel request is let through without security checking (less processing). Small difference could be the explanation.
That's my guess here, and this is just AMD running damage control and blaming everything else for the fact they claimed 40% increases over Zen4.
@@OscarOliu the data center analysts. The people that just want to stick it in a rack and not ever see what it puts out. They are happy. Maybe that's what it's come to. Data centers, big data, AI is where the money's at. Frankly as a casual gamer I'll stick to my 5600G. I'm sure it sucks. But it's just entertainment
Uh... there's a little more to it than that, and you're mixing up the two kinds of user mode (the CPU enforced mode, and the kernel implemented model). Every single call from user space (CPU mode) has it's UID origin checked (kernel implementation) regardless of account privilege. What additional checking Windows does when it sees it's an account with Admin rights, as opposed to Local Administrator, is anyone's guess. Just wanted to make the distinction clear.
@@andersjjensen there's a lot more to it. It's a 40 year old Kernel that is more complex than can fit in any comment. The point remains. Going into an admin account for a margin of error improvements isn't what AMD promised with their 25-40% marketing. The tools used in these benchmarks simply cannot give an explanation, they're too simplistic.
This is exactly why testing at my job NEVER EVER uses built-in admin account, but instead a normal user (both with and without admin rights). The Windows builtin admin account is something that should never be used for anything other than obscure recovery and debug operations. If AMD didn't find this because their internal testing runs using builtin admin account (with UAC off, probably), they failed seriously hard. And yes, Microsoft is also doing something very wrong, but...
Fully agree. It's a legacy blunder of the "only nerds with admin knowledge installs OS:s era" that Microsoft hasn't fixed theee types of problems (it probably affects more areas than performance in games..)
"Like any normal person, I create a Microsoft User account.."
Have I got news for you...
I’d definitely like to see a 5000 series part tested, I’m curious how much my 5700X3D has been affected
Agreed! And also what about 16 core cpus? They might even be affected more due to 2 CCDs and tasks switching cores.
Doesn't tell us a lot until we see the results for Intel with Admin account
the cpu will die even faster 😂😂
@@MrChocobitDumb comment
@@ZackSNetwork no u
Funny though 😅 @@ZackSNetwork
They'll fail
The builtin Administrator account was UAC turned off
Under default setting a standard local admin account has UAC turned on.
UAC was introduced with Windows Vista. With UAC turned on every administrator account (except the builtin one) will still execute all applications with standard user rights.
But an application (like an installer) can request admin rights by throwing an UAC prompt that the user has to manually accept. The only exception is changing most setting with builtin apps like control panel.
If you want to run a software with administrator priviledges you can:
a) Unlock the builtin Administrator account
b) Disable UAC
c) Right click the game exe and choose "run as adminstrator"
d) Right click the game exe, choose Properties, go to compatibility tab and select "run this program as amn administrator"
Bizarre that the hidden, inbuilt admin account gets this (btw don't use it for routine things, it's not intended for that), esp since this account has existed for decades. Not worth it for a 1% improvement anyway
All that, doesn't stop Zen 5 from being a sideways step
Theres a second scheduling issue with the dual CCD parts, possibly bouncing threads between CCDs, as well.
Someone pointed out that Windows was, for some reason, rapidly moving processes between cores and CCDs and people shit on him and told him he didn't know anything.
It was a wild bug he noticed though. Like many cores spiking from 0 to 100% incredibly rapidly, but only one or 2 at a time.
Windows stone age scheduler migrates processes between clusters. This has been known in the serverworld for 20 years
@@PepsiMagt for sure, but the scale of this seems different to previous gens (windows games 20% faster on linux isnt right), and heterogenious cores are commonplace these days
But isn't that zenshittery, it prevents cores from overheating?
@@Antagon666 It's just as much intelshittery, then, as Windows also jumps P cores to keep clocks higher (which is another way of saying "prevent overheating"). The issue is that Linux can figure out how to jump cores within the same CCD, and if it does decide to move CCD it moves all related threads at once. Windows' behavior completely knackers L3 cache coherency.
I just tested this and my 7950x3d + 4080S is getting about 15% better performance in 2077, Warhammer 3, and RDR2. Only ran each benchmark twice. Still absolutely wild. I'm once again shocked at just how terrible Windows is, and once again actively wishing there was literally any other option that worked seamlessly with both productivity workloads and gaming. I hate M$ so much, just when you think they can't possibly be any more inept or incompetent something like this pops up on the radar.
You're giving up security for performance. As much as I hate Microsoft, in this case the solution that AMD proposes is not something most users should rely on.
I’m skeptical that it’s a bug, it’s a known difference that apps would have a very slight performance increase when running with the local admin account. There’s some overhead with the user account control stuff. So here’s the question, do you see a slight increase in performance with Intel CPUs under the same conditions? Without answering that, the conclusion might be a bit premature, gamers shouldn’t be compelled to always login as the local admin.
My question is whether some rights check is being triggered over and over, if it's a difference in encapsulation or some additional level of indirection. If it's a check that only needs to be done once (or at least not as frequently) then it's something that can be fixed, but if it's about the local account operating inside a security membrane that the admin account doesn't have to deal with, then it might be pretty fundamental.
Yeah. It would be interesting to see Intel's uplift under admin account. Also x3d products.
Likely better off running specific games with Admin rather than User-wide Admin.
@@Muppet-kz2nc that’s also not clear, does this suggest running in admin or running in the context as admin with a standard account.
@@xeekk Steve just created a whole pipeline of analysis videos. I'm sure YT will get to the bottom of it.
in light of recent HUB Win 10 vs Win 11 benchmarks also showing win 11 is slower, would be nice to recheck win 10 with Zen 5
I would wager Win 10 probably doesn;t use the ccd's properly with 3dvcache. I only use Windows 11 on modern systems for things like and the pcore/ecore intel thread director. Windows 10 is a decade old now with minor updates since 2015.
@@timgibney5590 You can always use Process Lasso and bind the games to the correct cores yourself. I do this one Win10 with my 5900X for years now.
For example for UE4 titles I use a CPU set that limits the game to the stronger CCD and also limit the threads for the strongest core or two cores to one. That usually gives me about 5% more FPS. Sometimes even 10%. Though they are also games were I don't limit it like this. For example Forza Horizon 5, which isn't much limited by the CPU anyway even on a 4090, but benefits from all 12 core / 24 threads during loading.
This got a lot crazier, the latest version of Win 11 24H2 gives All ryzen Zen3/4/5 CPUs 10% on average additional performance (up to 30% in some games)
To think that all that performance was left on the table for years is crazy to me!
Do we know that Windows 10 doesn't also do this? Haven't there been multiple Win10 vs Win11 comparisons that showed nothing? So this may have been a generic Windows issue for quite a while.
This came with Windows Vista. Nothing new here. People were tired of having their XP machines ganked all the time, but because so much legacy software automatically assumes admin rights, without even checking, Microsoft had to get creative. So Windows Vista got a reputation for being dog slow. By Windows 7, which did improve performance in a few areas, people had stopped comparing to XP on the same hardware, so people were happy. But we all took a performance hit due to Microsofts absurdly stupid decision to not just teach people the concept of "this is your account password, and this is your special password for installing software and changing the system" when they went away from Windows 98 and gave consumers a reskinned Windows NT5.1.
No need to put it back in the box then. It's just windows trying to load too many adverts and slowing it all down.
Linux FTW
@@Splarkszter Linux is love. Linux is life.
@@Splarkszterlast time I used Linux it wasn't fun. To install a GPU driver I had to use commands, it wasn't fun to get it done but why not use something more convenient? Windows ads are a turn off though I wish Linux was more compatible with games and other programs.
You don't install graphics drivers in Linux, they are modules already built by the kernel. That was your first problem.
@@noahw5887 Personally... I wish the Open Source Windows-compatible OS, *REACTos* would finally get rolling. It's windows, but without the bollocks. Side-note: for those unaware, Linux began as a unix-compatible or unix-like OS, started because Torvalds University lost the license to Unix, so he started making his own. Likewise, there actually exists a FULLY FEATURED, near-perfect compatible Open Source clone of another MS-os: FreeDos - a compatible of MS-DOS.
Now with 105Watts agesa and this fix, 9700X will be a little more ahead.
I assume that running on the hidden admin account disables User Access Control. That would be a security risk. Also, if everyone HAS to use that specific account to run software properly, we effectively remove one of the big features of Windows 9x/NT, which was allowing separate user accounts, able to install their own software and keep track of their own files without having to administer the whole user directory structure ourselves.
The primary reason enabling the admin account is dangerous is because the SID is well known and ending in 500 while others are 501, for base domain admin it's worse as the base admin has no lockout from bad password entries.
Windows 9x doesn't have multiple accounts
@@Mattia_98 Yes, it did. It wasn't as secure as modern accounts, but it was there. I remember having to use TweakUI to set it to automatically fill in my password when I logged in. And you'd still see the login window.
@@Mattia_98 Windows 9x may have defaulted to a single account automatically logged in with no password, and it may have lacked security features to protect files from other users, but it absolutely did have the option to create multiple user accounts with passwords and a default file structure for those accounts.
Disabling UAC is not dangerous. Opening dangerous programs is. Disabling UAC is such a convenience, that popup is so annoying and completely unnecessary for experienced users.
4:47 LMAO I bursted out laughing
Nots how the background tone is darker when steve is standing as opposed to sitting
Does this happen in Win10 as well? I know technicaly those CPU are only Win11 certified, but, would local vs admin accounts give the same boost, or the bug in Win10 does not show?
I wonder if choosing "Run as administrator" makes any difference.
in this way you "run as admin" all sistem
Same, I'm gonna run some cyberpunk benchmarks on my system and see if there's any change
Edit: only game I have installed with a canned benchmark is Cyperpunk and the difference was less than 1% (also probably GPU bound)
I'm curious about that too. You shouldn't run applications as admin unless absolutely necessary, but doing it per-application is still safer than running every application as admin!
the 2 Steve's are such important voices to the benchmarking field. Can always be counted on to go the extra mile to give us accurate data.
I haven't run as any flavour of admin account for general usage for many years for so many security reasons. This has to be fixed sensibly.
Listening to the description of the problem, I suspect that it isn't a "bug", that is something that occurs due to unintended consequences of code. I'm guessing that slow down is due to something intended to increase security. In that regard, it's designed to operate that way and so likely there is no fix.
What so many security reasons? I'm constantly hearing people claim this but not a single one, says what security risks admin account opens up to us.
In a real admin account the risks you have, are the same OS's like Windows XP add, risks that can be solved with just a good antivirus, a good firewall and intelligence from part of the user.
as any flavour of? Please reiterate, I can't get past this word spaghetti.
@@Argoon1981 I guess people can't help but click any random exe or link they get sent.
@@Argoon1981 It is mostly an issue that previously trusted sources will now no longer need security checks to download... anything really. Which is good for stuff like singleplayer games which are not receiving or sending data. But once you get a bad download of any kind, it will immediately be installed and you will be f*cked. Your antivirus may or may not notice it, and if it does not you are cooked because your system will not do any check or give you a warning of any kind. All it takes is you giving permissions once and the app or program can download and install stuff without permission 24/7. Any bad actor can use this very obvious exploit to push malware on you. And all it takes is gaining access to a previously trusted source.
Now is this guaranteed to cause a problem? No. But this is taking on elevated risk for no good reason. Especially for anybody who is not as experienced as they may think, and accidentally clicks on something wrong. Or a multiplayer game gets breached and bad data is sent. Or maybe a singleplayer game gets patched and has malware somehow. Crazier things have happened. Most competitive multiplayer games already have incredibly intrusive anti cheats that require kernel access.
Need to see 7800x3d with this fix asap
i have 7800x3d and win11 i will try 2-3 games with this admin account and will look up the difference
nevermind not worth to risk it for the biscuit
7800x3D with the admin account charts is what we need now!!
5800X3D
Would running a game as administrator do the same?
According to the Steam Hardware survey, 71% of users still use WINDOWS 10. Can you test windows 10 more?
Looking at the Steam hardware survey Windows 10 only accounts for 50.16% and 11 is at 45.81% at the moment, so not a lot in it. Would be interesting to see if this affects 10 though.
@@richard-davies you're right I looked at the wrong thing. Still is more than windows 11 though.
@@user-ck9cw8fs5n For now. Modern PCs all ship 11, do 10 will get phased out when apps stop supporting it.
10 has one year left until it loses support. I think they're justified in focusing on 11 for that reason
Still currently Win 10 is more relevant and less buggy, Win 11 does not yet even have Win 10 feature parity but it slowly gets better, not recommended to use where stability is desired.
Credit for thoroughness here and testing more than one generation,
. This a really odd bug, I hope we get a technical explanation of what is causing it because I don't ever recall software behaving like that before.
So this means that Ryzen can be wayyyy faster in general? We need X3D chips retested with this profile on.
Also, NO ONE SHOULD EVER RUN THIS PROFILE, IT'S AN INSANE SECURITY RISK.
It's not just Ryzen, it's Intel as well.
Extreme OC world records have been using the hidden Admin account for ages.
@@marceldiezasch6192 Really? For ages? And no one said that it gives a bit more perf?
*watches on my 7800x3d setup on windows 10 laid back and worry free*
Test it with "real Admin" instead of being worry free ;-)
i wonder if disabling uac has the same effect as running as the actual user administrator, or for that matter for a game it will work with right click run as administrator
One thing that does not relate to this video, but does relate to Ryzen 9xxx vs Windows in general is that under Linux new Ryzen shines in virtually all workloads as shown in tests on Phoronix.
Btw - what you are mentioning at the end MAY be related to the bug that JayzTwoCents found that can massively affect performance of multi-die CPUs. But that is more of an AMD uninstaller bug combined with BIOS settings problem.
It doesn't. It only shines in workloads which use avx 512. Stop spreading misinformation
@@nayan.punekar Look at those tests first before you comment. Thanks
AMD failed to mention this to reviewers with the review units, that explains even they themselves didn't know about it. They could've taken this seriously, at the end of the day it hurts AMD more than anyone.
This also suggests AMD has not been testing their own CPUs under typical user installation scenarios
They failed to mention other things too. It's not necessarily that they didn't know, but just that they're incompetent.
Well, they told reviewers about core parking on Ryzen 9 5 days after they started testing, so...
Yes and and I firmly believe reviewers should've ignored it.
Running the actual Admin account is a well known security risk.
Also it's extremely likely that it affects all CPUs including Intel, so it might not really change any comparisons after all.
Oh this is mighty fascinating. Being as I already sandbox my browser, chat, video player, image players etc I'm going to give this a try on my 5800X3D.
Is this only in W11 but not W10?
Ye this needs testing 5% gains would be huge on 5800x3d.
It suppose to be another way.
There have been hidden Admin account from Windows Vista, but Microsoft try really hard to remove that options from users (Home edition).
I would guess, they *will* lock and hide that account from Windows 11
Either way - Elevated Command prompt (Admin): X:
et user /active:yes
Using Microsoft PowerShell: Enable-LocalUser "username" (- unlock - when locked or - enable - when disabled)
@@gaav87why is this CPU popping up EVERYWHERE?!
Windows 11 is basically just a skin for W10, plus some minor changes particularlyto the scheduler, so I'd imagine this affects 10 too.
Honestly this makes things worse not better. They have been selling 7000 series for nearly 2 years and because of an admin bug they have been missing out some decent performance gaps. The results still show the 9000 series performance still performs often the same, sometimes worse and sometimes better than the 7000 so still no hidden uplift for Zen 5 even with this bug solved.
They run faster on Linux...
IMO a OS shouldn't have any effect on the speed of a hardware but in this case it has, Windows is pushing back CPU's because of all inhouse spyware it has. We should demand Microsoft to remove that stuff and not take extra precious hardware resources from the user.
@@Argoon1981 MS has dominated the market way too long, would be nice if there was a serious easy-to-use and compatible alternative to Windows for normal, unadvanced, pc users/gamers.. hopefully Linux will become more homogenous and programmers will join hands in making less and better distributions. Now there's too much choice for the average user, they can't see the wood for the trees.
@@hiriotapa1983 there's no real incentive to join. It's not a corporation but regular people who are interested in doing things. And their interests and opinions differ. If a project doesn't interest me, I won't spend my personal time on it. It's like saying that Olympic athletes should come together and push one sport forward instead of training for different ones
@@Argoon1981 I mean the spyware definitely has a impact but generally from the limited tests on gaming on Linux it seems to have very similar performance on games that actually have Linux versions.
I would be interested if a reviewer spent the time to review 13th gen or older intel CPUs and Ryzen 5000 series or older on the windows admin vs normal windows 11 vs Linux. See if there is any big differences. Would take so much time and you need all of those CPUs doubt anyone owns all of those CPUs has the time to do those tests sadly.
I just ordered parts for a 7900X3D build, when I was shopping it was $30 more than the 7800X3D so figured might as well get those extra cores
whats going on are we just missing free performance because of windows on our ryzen 7000
Not quite related but something weird is going in: Phoronix has Zen 5 10% faster in 7-zip over Zen 4, while Windows tests show a regression. I just don't understand how this is possible, operating systems shouldn't "do" anything to a process like 7-zip.
Steve has shown that Phoronix's 7950X chips is weirdly slower than his, that's why it makes the 9950X look better.
Phoronix's Linux test and Steve's W11 test on 7-Zip have the same score for the 9950X.
Phoronix only tested compression, on techpowerup windows test there is also small gain in 7zip compression, but decompression is slower.
Yes it would. Virtually all programs use system calls one way or another. If those change in performance, then so does the process that uses them
Any multi-threaded process has the OS "doing" a lot of things. For example, if a thread was running on a specific core but the OS suddenly decides to run some system task on that core, the thread might get bumped to a different core, which involves copying a lot of data and / or potentially getting a lot of cache misses in the next memory operations. And if the OS is enforcing per-core memory isolation (for security), that becomes even more noticeable.
This is the beauty of Companies listening to independent parties like Hardware Unboxed. Access to more Data. Companies want to produce competitive products which bring customers back, finding and fixing problems or potential problems allows companies to improve quality and perceived customer focused care. Having independent reviewers who are not 'paid' to produce favourable results is an edge which companies should consider as a potential edge on competitors who pay for 'good' reviews.
This is nothing new, we seen this since the Windows 7 days, debloated Windows always has 5 to 10% better performance in gaming, thats why custom Windows like Ghost Spectre, Lite and even LTSC are so popular with gamers, because it removes majority of the unnecessary processes that run in the background, some like Ghost Spectre even adjust the system itself so its prioritises more of its resources on gaming applications which can cause system instability when you try to run multiple such high demanding applications, lets say you run a game, then Premiere Pro for a video render and then a browser with 50 tabs, most people wont do this however so its a non issue, but Microsoft does indeed have to account for such a scenario hence why there is always a bit of power reserved for the OS itself to prevent such instability issues.
There have been many people who show that "debloating" Windows 11 makes no difference in gaming performance. In some cases removing Xbox Game Bar can hurt performance.
You didn't see gains on Windows 7 in frames, but latency. You would disable Superfetch and a few other services, disable DWM etc.
Windows 8 had huge changes to Windows internally trying to save power at all costs and wrecked latency. Such as disabledynamictick
Windows 10 and now 11 has continually piled onto this, along with security patches, why we can see up to 20% performance difference in CPU demanding games (particularly source games) on Windows 7 vs Windows 11.
@@griffin1366
The Ghost Spectre version does most of this for you, and like you pointed out, Source games benefit the most out of it, he has multiple videos on it, my own experience this is mostly true, latency issues go down, I use Ghost Spectre even on my work laptop because I do a lot of audio work and without Ghost Spectre that same laptop was borderline useless if I had anything other than the audio software open but with it, I can actually have multiple programs without much issue.
Steve never thought about the possibility that this isn't a bug, but it's just Windows disabling security features in the Administrator account, which frees up CPU resources.
But he had to rush the video.
Which makes sens if AMD (and probably Intel) is using by default to maximize marketing benchmarks.
I doubt it is a "windows bug" so much as just windows crapware such as random auto-installed market apps being forced on normal user accounts but not on the admin account.
On a tangent, instead of using the hidden administrator account, I'd be curious to see you or anyone test with "Run as administrator" on the normal account. If that also gets a performance boost, I guess my theory would be wrong. Another test could be to have both accounts logged in at once with "switch user" instead of "logout" from the normal account. I'd expect that to lower the results you get from the administrator account too.
did you test the administrator on windows 10? just wondering, before its claimed that it is a "win11 issue"...
Win10 support is ending soon, it is normal for testing like this to ignore it already as being old and soon unsupported.
@@user-fi1nv8mf4l my question was not to blame someone but to clarify if its a common thing on windows, or really a win11 thing
@@user-fi1nv8mf4l Soon? Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC 2021 will be supported till 2032! 🤣🤣😂
PS": IoT Enterprise is the best version you can easily activate it Permanently with 2 sec through powersell (HWID Digital License) ^) It contains only Edge and defender. Other OS version are intended for beta testers.
There's a widely embraced corporate ethic that corporations cannot admit to mistakes. This isn't taught in business school and yet the rule is followed adamantly, that's why you will rarely see an exception to the rule. My personal belief is that it's bad for business long term. I think that a corporation who won't admit to mistakes becomes resented the same way a human who won't admit to making a mistake becomes resented. I think AMD should announce that they messed the launch up, and they're going to try hard to improve. That sounds like typhoid fever to an AMD executive, only because they cannot empathize with the way we'd interpret it.
Because we live in a sue happy world. It's a form of protection as crappy as it sounds.
Funny thing is, did AMD mess up ? Linux gaming performance did increase a bunch.
@@autohmae AMD messed up for me because they are acting like Intel. Why does Zen 5 have a 200 - 250% increase in inter-CCD core-to-core latency? Can you explain it? That's a severe regression from Zen 4. That is something Intel would do.
@@zyxyuv1650 Let me ask it this way: if Linux did increase in performance on the new AMD CPU and Windows did not. Is that mainly a Windows problem or an AMD problem ? (I'm certain MS and AMD are working hard on fixing it as we speak).
@@autohmae It's an AMD problem for not predicting and preparing for the unavoidable and inevitable outcome that everyone was going to run into this problem and it would compromise the launch. Ultimately it's AMD's responsibility to ensure a good launch. That includes reaching out to companies like Microsoft, NVIDIA to ensure compatibility with AMD hardware well ahead of time before the launch.
Now I've answered your questions twice and you did not answer my question.
Bloatware and telemetry you get with a Windows install changes often. Whereas kernel space vs. user space is a separate matter.
Kindest regards, neighbours and friends.
people testing on linux are saying they work a lot better on linux
win10 not effected?
Ryzen 9000 officially needs Windows 11
@@vincentvega3093 Says who
@@vincentvega3093 No it doesn't.
@@vincentvega3093 Huh? Why? And last I checked the same was said about Intel's new P+E cores architecture in the 12th gen and yet now Win 10 handles it just as well and so does Linux. If not even better because Win 11 gets more and more bloated.
@Hardcore_Remixer How is windows 11 more bloated? Like i geniunly want to know. You'd think having more duplicate settings via control panel and actual settings and countless ads shoved into the control planel on 10 would equate to more bloat but nope, there is something I'm clearly missing.
I have always loved your in-depth knowledge & process for providing real examples in an unbiased manner!
As for the ADMIN accounts in Windows. with a warning to folks that try this out (I know this will happen). ADMIN accounts allow for unrestricted 0 ring access to systems running Windows. Which allows ADMIN full R/W access to those threads that require this level of access. Under normal conditions with known safe applications, this is a non-issue. However, applications exist that are purpose built for ADMIN access that may take that opportunity to do bad things.
I would highly recommend that anyone using the ADMIN account access level for testing to do this either on a VM or a non-critical test system, isolated from your network devices (air-gapped) where possible. While I won't go into the specifics of how or why, this is a point that I think may add value to the conversion.
Great work, again love the content!
long time subscriber... ok, well maybe a really long time ;) Kudos!
Interesting fault. But not exactly a Zen 5 fix.
Great finding. Does this also affect AM4 CPUs? Does "Run as administrator" have the same result?
Good question, also curious
Steve, imagine it like this:
The hidden Admin account is like the Admin User in WindowsXP.
You can do whatever you want to do. Much like how you can still do it in Linux.
With Vista, there was a user account with admin rights, to keep new users (people that are new to pc handling) from deleting important registry entries, system files and also to reduce malware acces to system files when executed on the "admin user".
Ever since then, the panic calls from grandmothers who "deleted the internet" (they deleted the internet explorer) have basically stopped.
WHERES MY 5800X3D BENCHMARK?? 😡
Yes, where?!
In the trash with the 5800X3D.
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