Why Alternate Picking is NOT the traditional technique for bebop
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- Опубліковано 4 лис 2017
- www.christianmillerguitar.com
Troy Grady on Downward Pickslanting
• Code Kickoff Part 1: D...
Benson picking example with tab
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A Wes's eye view of his left and right hands
• Wes Montgomery-Four On...
Jimmy Raney discussing technique
• Jimmy Raney on picking...
Trailers for Bruce Foreman, Mike Moreno and Pasquale Grasso technique lessons
Bruce
• Bruce Forman - Bebop G...
Mike
• Mike Moreno - Sound Te...
Pasquale
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#giveusacutadam
Great video - but can't believe there was no mention of Jimmy Bruno, one of the greatest economy pickers of all time. In fact, he wrote a whole book on it!
You offer rare insight into the nature of guitar playing ! Seriously....well done.
I agree with this Cat! In the end of the day, whatever picking or finger or thumb technique and hybrid as well you can get it done and sound good is the way to go keeping in mind that each of these have their advantages and limitations.Great topic my friend!
With arthritis, i don't have the luxury of choosing how to pick. Holding the pick is an achievement. But i try my best to make a sound.
Nice video! I have developed a few of the techniques you mentioned in your video: gypsy , benson, and alternate picking. They certainly have their pros and cons
a great video and a fantastic approach to discussion! subscribed...
My one and only guitar instructor taught me sweep/economy picking in both directions, not just for arpeggios but scales, using 3 note per string scale fingerings. (Of course, I use alternate picking for some phrases, and hammerons and pulloffs as well). It helped me greatly.
Troy's videos prove 2 things:
1) the relationship between the pick and the strings at high speed
2) there's more than one approach to achieving that relationship
The music comes first.
mwright80 I don't know that he sets out to "prove" anything, just to codify it in a way that few people have attempted to do before. There's a big difference between giving someone a picking exercise and saying "practice until you just 'get it'" and giving them that same exercise and saying "this is a good example of when to use an upward pickslant"
@@TypingHazard I approve this message
interestingly, i think troy actually shows that the music sometimes comes second to technique, in that, for example, players like yngwie will construct lines that adhere to his mechanic.
@@noisyneil this is certainly true of some jazz guitarists much as we might hate to admit it.
@@TypingHazard I don't know what Troy set out to do. But to the extent that "prove" means to show that something exists, Troy's videos achieve that.
A great picking thought experiment:
Imagine the sounds that Wes would make with heavy pick on a gypsy guitar next to Django playing a Gibson L5 with his thumb!
It would be a much simpler world if one picking strategy was the best for all music...but you nailed the real world facts: triplets and swing rhythms demand a ton of different tools and approaches, and the vast variety of style is pretty much the determining factor.
If Grant Green, Wes, Benson, Kenny Burrell, Joe Pass, Jimmy Raney, Jim Hall, Barney Kessel, and Pat Martino all needed to choose between only two picking techniques there would probably only be two jazz guitar styles: Django Reinhardt and Charlie Christian, a much simpler world indeed!
But who would ever choose to live in that world?
I really appreciate Bireli Lagrene's flexibility to express almost anything with pretty spectacular technique in addition to singing like Sinatra, and playing violin and electric bass very well!
cheers! good job
I have also emailed them about it !
Cool!
I came to guitar after playing sax, and taught myself. Economy picking came natural - I literally never thought about picking. It just seems natural to alternate on the same string, and push - or pull - into the next string. Since I'm not trying to be a pro, I'll never bother putting effort into alternate or any other style - there's just too much work to do when I can already pick without thinking
Well I think economy IS natural. I also think people get sort of programmed to approach technique in certain way by dogmatic teachers. There's a lot of world class players who use economy picking almost exclusively.
Can you precisely define "economy" picking? If it's not involving back and forth on the same string at all (which I *think* is "alternate picking"), then isn't it just all downward picking? What am I missing here?@@JazzGuitarScrapbook
Me as well, but can you play Donna Lee on guitar as fast as you probably can on sax?
@@JeffreySaxophoneTallNewton alternate picking is when you ALWAYS alternate up down. Economy picking is where you break that rule to switch strings.
Thank you for clearing that up! So to actually play lines across more than one string, you have to combine these methods. Makes sense!@@JazzGuitarScrapbook
For picking, I look to Wes Montgomery, Herb Ellis & Barney Kessel - ALL these bebop guitarists used pretty much exclusively down strokes and down rakes/sweeps. I think a large part of the reason for this, is to get a more uniform tone and also to make their runs sound 'snappy' - If you play an eighth note run using only down strokes and then play the exactly the same run at the same tempo using alternate picking, the downstroke version will sound snappier because you're hitting the strings twice as fast.
Also playing only downstrokes, will help get the characteristic bebop '8th note feel' where lines of 8ths are played more evenly and smoothly with less of a shuffle feel...
Great video, very helpful. I think a video of various Bebop guitarists would be helpful. I think you've brought up a few players of whom I'm not familiar. Chuck Wayne and Barry Harris? I'm always looking for more influences. One slight criticism, most of your videos sound quality could be improved. The guitar sounds fine, but your voice is a bit echoey and boomy. Perhaps it's the mike you are using or the ambient sound in the room.
Robert Van Housen Barry Harris isn’t a guitar player, he’s a pianist! Some hot bop guitarists to check out - Billy Bean, Jimmy Rainey, Tal Farlow, Pasquale Grasso and Roni Ben-Hur.
@@JazzGuitarScrapbook Thanks! I'm familiar with Rainey,Farlow and Pass. I'll check out the others.
Tal Farlow, played with Mingus in the late 40s, height of the bop era,used alternate picking,and both up and down sweeps
. Mundell Lowe who played in Charlie Parker's band ( you can't get more bebop than that) , used alternate picking.Tiny Grimes used alternate picking ,Barney Kessel used alternate picking- among others tactics. Hyrbid picking- pick and fingers is another technique, and so is thumb pick and fingers, as employed by Lenny Breau.
Cool - but I will ask this... how do you know? Is this something you've researched yourself? I so - tell me more....
Yes I have. I took a workshop with Mundell Lowe. You can look at videos of them playing.
Thank you for the information. I really don't know that much about the players referenced (I've obviously listened to them but not studied them in any great depth), so that sheds some light on the history of technique. Is there any material you could PM me from Lowe's workshop? I'd be grateful for anything you could provide. First hand info from the bop era is invaluable....
I respectfully disagree re: Tal - what you say I agree with in that he uses a mix of alt picking and sweeping.
BUT - Tal's technique uses the gestures and movements I associate with downward pick slanting. It is asymmetric - he sweeps downwards and alt picks upwards the majority of the time.
Samba C which vids is Barney flexing his alt picking chops in? The ones I’ve watched seem to be downstroke only or two way sweeping... could you attach a url to save me the time? Not that listening to lots of Barney is a chore of course :-)
Hi thank you for the informative video
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Personally, I like to align my upstrokes with upbeat and down with down to keep my swing consistent.
This is somewhat off topic, but regarding playing bebop lines, I know that to outline harmonies well and play strong lines, chord tones should land on a downbeat. Does this imply that upbeats must be non chord tones or are chord tones on up beats alright?
Thank you!
Hey man, thanks for the comment. I certainly understand the urge to play an upbeat with an upstroke... That said, there's a complicated interplay between accent and fingering which is actually encouraged by DWPS picking styles. which is why I think DWPS players like GB and Wes swing a hell of a lot, there's a natural lilt to those phrases played in that way.
Alternate picking is more consistent, but consistency can lead to .... blandness.... But that consistency is obviously part of Pat Martino's style for instance. More than one way to swing.
Anyway, I have no idea what my right hand is up to these days. It seems to have an agenda of it's own to be honest.
There are - to my mind - two types of upbeat in bop. The connecting or passing up beat - just a connecting eighth note between two beats. In this case, it sounds best to place dissonant notes on this type of upbeat, but not necessarily only dissonant notes of course. The other type of upbeat is what I call a structural upbeat. This is an upbeat with no following note, and is often tied to the next beat. This upbeat wants to be treated as the next downbeat, and needs some sort of resolved note on it.
Actually, I'm going to put this into a Q&A vid if that's cool....
Yes of course thank you for the response!
It all comes down to tempo, context and where you're headed on the fretboard. Down stroke at slow tempo is great for a fat sound, but up tempo, you have to use it all.
It also comes down largely to the physics of string crossing. Some learn this stuff intuitively and tbh I wonder if that isn’t the best way; your body has a way of telling you what it wants to do…. Which is not an excuse for bad technique haah
You seem to suggest that downward pick slanting and two way pick slanting are incompatible with alternate picking? If anything, Troy Grady's videos have shown that downward pick slanting helps you clear the pick from hitting the upper strings unintentionally when doing upstrokes on ascending lines. Because when you upstroke with a downward pick slant, you're not simply picking up through the string but up and away.
Another interesting thing is that some fast alternate pickers hold their picks slightly sideways so the pick cuts through the string with little resistance. I know that's not your wheelhouse, but Shawn Lane talks about it in one of his clinics. Seems to facilitate really fast picking.
I don’t dispute any of that. I personally find it easier to do all downstrokes in gypsy jazz floating hand position rather than alternate going up though it is possible. It’s just a faff to dip the pick into the guitar to connect with adjacent string on the upstroke. On the other hand you can end up cheating this stuff at speed. Look at the Josco Stephan vid.
When I have my hand in muting position (like electric playing) it’s a lot more versatile, easier to change pick angle etc. Benson grip also helps imo.
Jazz Guitar Scrapbook Josco Stephan is a technique monster. Does he downpick only when he plays slower lines?
Bablo Biggins watch Troy’s video on Joscho’s arpeggios. It’s pretty interesting to compare what he does at medium and high speeds.
Wes also would use his index finger to double pick a note. His finger looked like it was pointing down to the pickup when doing it. People worry too much about picking. Work on all the different approaches then forget it and let your subconscious decide which to use as you play. In an old interview with Sco he talks about how he's not a fast picker like others, so he got into hammer-ons and pull-offs to compensate and play fast. Good lesson from Sco evaluate your skills and then find what works for you to get your music out of the instrument.
That's interesting info re Wes, do you have a link or anything regarding this?
Ill look to see if I can find the links there are UA-cam showing Wes doing it.
I use a mix. It’s easier to play slower phrases with alternate. Economy picking and slurring are useful for faster passages. It’s tough to play slower passages with economy picking in my experience.
It’s certainly harder to play them in time! You could do all down strokes of course ;-)
Well for a start Troy you don't need to pick EVERY note. You can use hammer on, slurs, etc; and try doing tremolo without alternating strokes. The reason we alternate strokes ( not all the time,) is to facilitate speed. At 79 years, I have lost my speed, and I make a lot of mistakes, but there you go. I use alternate picking, when I need it, and some licks are easier if I just 'fughgeddaboudit' and play.
Um, I'm not Troy? But yes, slurs are good if they are used in the right way to support phrasing.
Adam Rogers is one of the baddest dudes I can think of. A Benson picker and an economy picker.
I too like Adam Rogers. You could get into murky water in exceptionally boring corners of the internet debating whether or not is a legit Benson picker though.... He certainly looks like one to me.
I'm not sure my guitar is set up best for this - Eastman Jazz Elite 7 string converted to a wide neck 6 string (I have really big hands and long fingers). TIs, 12s. I am using Dunlop 420, a meaty pick. How DEEP into the string (just the top) do you go? That seems to be an issue. Maybe my action isn't low enough? Great video, I learned a lot!
I don’t think the action is really critical for this? I angle the downward pick stroke into the guitar, but I don’t think I go too far, just the usual amount of pick.
Thanks, what I'm running into is that the amount of force and inertia required to make a string "sound" requires too much force and too deep below the string to move the pick back and forth over it really fast and evenly. I can play super fast on my saxophone (50 years), but not yet on guitar. Maybe 12s are too heavy? I just saw Mike Stern, sat right in front of him, he plays fast, and he uses 10s with the top string an 11. Of course he's got that injury, but I think it's the same set-up. Are lighter strings easier in this regard? Thank you...@@JazzGuitarScrapbook
@@JeffreySaxophoneTallNewton actually if anything I find it easier on heavy strings. I was using I think 13s in the video. But that’s more just what I’m used to.
That's what many say! Today I went to Guitar Center and tried some Telecasters, they had 9s on them, very very light by comparison to my 12s. I thought they were a *little* easier. But not by much. I suppose players put lighter strings on Teles than archtops? I just sat right in front of Mike Stern for his show, he uses 10s but an 11 on top (38 on bottom).@@JazzGuitarScrapbook
@@JeffreySaxophoneTallNewton i do - i think in general just because people use solid body guitars for non jazz gigs so it’s good to be able to bend. Mike bends of course. It’s taken me a while to get used to 11s. I can’t play 9s. But you can get used to any strings provided the instrument is well set up. String gauge is more critical for left hand legato and bending … which is why rock players use lighter strings.
I agree that benson picking is pretty complicated. I used different variations of it for a year and couldn't really get it to work for me.
I think it's potentially more flexible than trad grip DWPS.... But it has some disadvantages... Besides, I feel Birelli and GB are about on a par picking wise... DWPS is a pretty powerful technique.
What do you think about this concept?
In school I was taught to use alternate picking in terms of downbeats and upbeats.
You could do hammerons, slides and so on, but if you were going to pick on a downbeat, then it gets a downstroke, and an upbeat gets an upstroke.
Sort of like strumming when your hand has a constant rhythm going and you just decide when you want to strike the strings.
Yeah - that's what I think of as true alternate picking actually. It has some advantages and some disadvantages. It's definitely worth practicing. I would advise anyone interested in picking to practice as many things as possible. I would say that alt picking of this kind makes it hard to get a loud acoustic sound and complicates floating hand technique especially in terms of cross picking accuracy... But OTOH. Nashville. Basically. Nashville pickers are generally either DWPS or pure alternate, and they can all play plenty loud and fast.
Historically, however, it seems alternate pickers have been rarer in jazz than DWPS pickers at least until the present era when everyone is taught alt picking at school. Now this might be bullshit, but - I feel alt picking is a very difficult or at least poorly understood technique from a biomechanics. As a result, few players develop the level of technique seen in practically all Gypsy style pickers, so can spend quite a lot of their lives feeling like they can never be fast players. This is a failure of pedagogy, frankly. I reckon anyone can be a speed demon if they consistently practice DWPS. It does the work for you.
Jazz Guitar Scrapbook I agree, I think alternate picking is a good exercise for your rhythm more than anything, but it does create a lot of problems. My solution is I like to use a mix of techniques :)
Wes had typically 'African' thumbs - big thumb pad and the first thumb joint at almost a right angle. When watching Wes play, it seems that his famous thumb was vertical and picking downward and INTO the guitar strings instead of across them as in alternate or down/up picking, much like a jazz pianist...
I've never heard Troy Grady play anything that I consider to be even remotely jazzy, although I expect he probably could if he felt so inclined... Don't know about the others apart from George Benson who's obviously an amazing picker. I'll have to check 'em out...
Is there a book with bebop lines? How can I build a lick vocabulary? Thank you.
Philippe Haddad best way - by learning them form records. I hate books of licks. But really the aim is not to develop a vocabulary of licks but to learn the language. The recommend the Barry Harris workshop DVDs as a constructive grammar of bebop lines.
Thank you.
Charlie Parker Omni book is a good place to start ur study. Full transcriptions.
I have one other comment: Alternate picking, along with scrapes up & down & "legato" non-picked notes for slurs, is the best way to achieve a loud, clear, and fast style of steel-string guitar playing. For any genre known or unknown. The other techniques make the player more reliant on the amp or mic.
Charles Duckett Jr. Re your last sentence. Not necessarily, check out the track Diminished Responsibility by Allan Holdsworth or his other acoustic tracks, or his clean electric things, so it can be done other ways without amp or mic.
Yeah I agree with Claymor. You can slur and still play acoustic. If you really want to project though, becomes much harder.
Let me put it this way: I don’t think Allan’s approach would have cut through on an acoustic bluegrass or Gypsy jazz session basically. You can do a bit of slurring but there’s only so much the guitar will give you with a heavy attack. Simply the nature of the beast. That’s why as amplification improved jazz guitar became more legato...
Pasquale Grasso teacher was guitarist Agostino di Giorgio that was a student of Chuck Wayne.
ua-cam.com/video/VVr2yHwuhL8/v-deo.html
Replace "standard" with traditional and I would agree with you.
Alexander Ciavarelli I’m not sure if I fully understand the distinction.
Alexander Ciavarelli but I like it, and I might change the title as that’s basically what I’m arguing.
I changed it :-)
i think pasquale uses his fingers, i.e. he moves thumb/index to pluck instead of his wrist, no?
Yeah I think his pick technique I think is close to Chuck Wayne's in that it's a finger based economy approach.
I think one should first and foremost hear the sound, and then adjust one's picking to the sound one would like to achieve. It's all related. It's part of dressing up the music.
I think mix it up if you can. If alternative picking works for you, just try expiriment adding other techniques as well, by all means don't desert what works for you. That could be even more harmful. Eg. Downpicking all the time :/
I definitely do more alternate picking than I used to. Anyway this video was to present more of a historical context. I actually think the downstroke thing came out of acoustic playing. I do tend to switch off when I hear electric jazz players who play with a very soft rolled off sound, leaning on the amp... I tend to like the tone of players like Peter Bernstein who dig in a bit. (Although PB is an upward pickslanter!)
I am surprised that there is no mention of John Scofield. I think he should be considered to be a jazz guitarist even though he morphs over into other genres. He has a very unusual picking style. I saw him play umpteen times throughout the 1980's, sometimes as a sideman on gigs. In those days at least, John hardly used any alternate picking, and he positioned the pick hard right by the bridge saddles almost always. I can't think of any other player who does it like that. Yet, he could get a warm full sound when he wanted to using that style. Not for everyone, certainly not for me, although I will go there once in a while.
I don’t really think of a Sco as a bop player per se or a notable picker particularly - much more a left hand oriented player. Brilliant musician though, but as I’ve never spent time digging into his approach you probably know much more about it than me! Anyway thanks for the interesting post.
Whats that pick you are using?
This video was made six years ago. I actually don’t know. These days I use a Dunlop Flow Standard 2mm. Profile like a large jazz III. Probably I was using something like that?
The George Benson way of playing is _not_ simple, not in any sense. Actually, it seems to me that it either comes natural to you, and is easy.... or it feels all wrong, and in that case you may as try another approach. That's been my experience - I've never seen someone to whom it didn't come naturally, who learned to play that way with agility.
Nobody says you have to alternate pick jazz lines. I've literally never heard that in my life. Good video though
I thought george bendon used upwards pick slanting. Rabea massad and marty friedman does the same.
No, benson holds his pick underhand but the mechanics of his picking are very much dwps. He favours ascending sweeps and two/four notes a string patterns descending, very similar to Manouche players (who are all into George)
Afaik Friedman is similar
@@JazzGuitarScrapbook aaah got it. It is strange how something like that hides in plain sight. Thanks!
@@JazzGuitarScrapbook thanks! Dwps but the hand «under».
What plectrums do you use?
Mark Tierney nothing too light 1.5mm +, other than that I chop and change all the time, mostly because I keep losing them
Wes Montgomery had massive hands. Perhaps his style developed as more of a necessity, tbh.
I would think more in terms of the left hand than the right?
Jazz Guitar Scrapbook Yeah that to, but I'm just thinking in terms of the right hand. I have very slim fingers so I can only imagine how it would be picking with huge hands. One would definitely need long enough nails, and I'm imagining all kinds of difficulties in terms of where his huge fingers would be picking, above and between pickups etc. I'm assuming the sound would be inconsistent etc. Yet his thumb nail is picking in the same area most of the time.
I don't think he picked with the nail. Apparently he had a corn on his thumb.
Jazz Guitar Scrapbook You know what, you're right. I couldn't find my pick so I was using my fingers and I have a long thumbnail from playing my classical guitar. Usually I use a pick on my hollowbody, and now I'm experiencing a totally different, more organic/authentic sound and feel using mostly downstrokes with my thumb when playing lines or melodies etc. Thanks bro ;)
Sometimes I like to practice with my thumb... I think it's a good thing to do even if you normally play with a pick.
Did Adam give you a cut?
Eh?
I was amused by the #giveusacutadam hashtag... I automatically assumed it was a light-hearted dig at Adam Neely but could have been completely off
John Mclaughlin
And.... for the latest reply ever.... I never really think of Johnny Mac as a bebop dude. But his early playing has a touch of the Grant Greens about it.
Players that use distorsión pedal depend on that to get the sound, when you get acustic that's the real deal, I mean EVH sounded terrible on acustic guitar jaha
If alternate picking is good enough for Kirk Hammett, it’s good enough for me! He’s better than Slash anyway
Word
Hey was that your email on Guitar Wank?
Jazz Guitar Scrapbook Yes! I’m podcast famous! How are you?
Great! How are you? Getting any playing done?
Jazz Guitar Scrapbook Yes, believe it or not, I’m still working on tunes that we discussed.
I’ve recorded this with a mate recently, we’re going to record some tunes over the next few months
ua-cam.com/video/e8uLDH2O5eo/v-deo.html
FOR ANYONE READING THIS: Get a lesson with Christian, it’s well worth going over these topics in detail!
You talk way too much and you have difficulties to focus and come to the point.
Duh, sorry my reply was based on the wrong vid, have deleted, but it's that's not what the guy originally said. Which points do you need clarification on?
@@JazzGuitarScrapbook sore. I can vouch for this feedback as well. perhaps it might do you well to incorporate feeback from your audience-as-listeners and strive to improve your summarizatiob and explanation skills rather than to perceive them as similar content creators?
@hiro TBH I don’t really see the value in humouring rude people. You didn’t say it in a rude way for instance.
Largely incompressible. I get it, alternate picking is not always best, but you don’t offer anything systematic as an alternative. ‘A bunch of people do a bunch of things’ is not an explanation.
The alternative is rest stroke or gypsy picking iirc, i did this video a while back but I think that’s what I was driving at. If you don’t know what that is and are interested in it, it should be google-able. I’m not sure id make the same video today.