J. Krishnamurti - Brockwood Park 1983 - Conversation 1 with D. Bohm - Is there an action...
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- Опубліковано 6 січ 2014
- J. Krishnamurti - Brockwood Park 1983 - Conversation 1 with David Bohm - Is there an action not touched by thought?
Summary:
Q: What is the future of man?
All the problems that humanity has now, psychologically and in other ways, are the result of thought. We are pursuing the same pattern of thought, and thought will never solve any of these problems.
The whole structure of the me is put together by thought. The me is my consciousness, which is my name, form, all the various experiences. Is consciousness individual, or is there one inseparable consciousness of mankind?
Whatever action is born of limited thought must inevitably breed conflict. Dividing humanity geographically, religiously, and so on, has created havoc in the world. The me is a divisive entity. Why is there this division? Am I concerned with my very limited self or with the future of mankind?
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Bohm does such a beautiful job of making Krishnamurti clarify his understanding into words that may be more palatable to the average person, it's a delight to see these two lovely souls interact and learn together
Is more then respect one for other; is love
True
Yes there is much that I misunderstood due to the way Krishnamurti speaks which I'm now able to understand due to Bohm's clarifications.
We are looking at two of the greatest minds in historie, trapped in persona, and partly aware.
This is a RARE sight and thank you to the Divine and Anni Besant on a shore in India.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
What I appreciate most of all is their very sincere effort to understand one another. They are working together to clarify both their thoughts. This is a true conversation in the sense that there is a ‘conversion’ of ideas into understanding.
We have many intelligent people engaging in discussion but rarely do they talk with each other in this manner. Instead, they try only to persuade the rights and wrongs of their ‘own’ argument. And tragically miss the forest for the trees.
absolutely. which is why communication has deteriorated to this point today. we identify with certain schools of thought, ideologies and that which we identify with, we will defend bcz it becomes a matter of personal affront.
sad in a matter of 30yrs, this is what we've come to.
Very well set this comment is one of the best on UA-cam I've read this whole year. And it's very satisfying watching too mature highly intellectual adults that are also good in physics and spiritual book balanced try to do their damndest their best to figure shit out and be honest and transparent with it with no ego all truth as they believe it and know it you can't ask for more than that. This is definitely a dialogue that should be studied by people in our elementary schools Junior High in high schools this is real education
So well put friend.
exactly
You have put wonderfully
Dr. Bohm clarifies what it is to be awake by asking relevant questions. I'm so grateful to listen to these intelligent men who offer love and compassion to us all.
@spiro certainly not you
Well done Bohm.❤
You did an excellent job
Just imagine if we could all have a meaningful dialogue between one another without anger and hate.
🕊🌺✨
In dreams, it's too late maybe
@@Ceogoogle. but then you can still have a meaningful internal dialogue with yourself
This is such a beautiful thought
Plenty of us are delightfully distracted that seldom do we give this meaningful thing a meaning.. it rather looks menacing and boring.. Pleasure of all sorts we are always consumed and we love it until nature slaps back for us to learn
I like Bohm, he makes the impression of being VERY cautious, VERY considerate, VERY sensitive to not deviate from the correctness of the things being said. Such a humble and honest man and at the same time such a brave and formidable man for approaching truth without inhibitions for the sake of advancing and helping humanity. My deepest respect.
A true true scientist looking for a logical profession to the truth....and he got that by the end of video 2. Brilliant teacher was Murti!
totally agree!
I feel very grateful to have the opportunity to hear and see those two talking.
Me too. So very grateful.
But i can only hear krishnamurthi.. 😞
Thus you divide and invite conflict ;-)
Better start getting back humanity and forget about these two...they're gone.
37 years later...the chaos is getting bigger and bigger...
@@TomTom-lg3ez why would yo think it's hopeless?
@@TomTom-lg3ez sadly enough you are right.
But we have iphones
@@TomTom-lg3ez whoever is programming this is learning and fixing the code on the go.
Also adding new features, gadgets etc. At the end the fixing is not going to help and they have to crash/decommission this software to build a new one. And the cycle will continue.
@Mr. E Hopeless in the sense that the chaos and hysteria that we have been experiencing in this cycle are not over by the long shot. The worst is yet to come in terms of social-economic fallout. There's always hope because after this cycle, next cycle begins with rejuvenated society that's ready to start fresh. It's simply a natural phenomenon we must experience
12:23 thought
16:47 knowledge about human being
21:35 why important? division and conflict
26:19 mankind is all one
28:50 achievement of men
32:00 consciousness is shared by all human beings
36:23 source of thought is psychological time
40:00 44:42 time
43:23 1:06:16 self improvement
45:24 47:50 observer is the observed. no time
46:26 ending of self knowledge
55:50 1:08:40 intelligence
58:58 how to find out
1:13:09 future of mankind
1:17:53 Bodhisattva
Wow u r grt
Спасибо, добрый человек
Thanks
Thanks for this Indexing 😊. As you know it helps to listen to specific points 🎉
Thank you for these !
1:07:40 When he talks about how one has to feel about the world being one, I remember one rare moment of clarity in my life. I was at my grandma's funeral and we were at the graveyard; all the relatives and friends and people who knew her. I looked at them all and suddenly it became so clear to me: we are all one life. My grandma wasn't dead; her body might be in that little box, but everything she was lived on in all of us and all my grief vanished in an instant. I was so happy that I realised that. From that moment on I tried to treat every person as a part of me. Every fault, anger, sorrow I encountered was part of me and I try every day to hold on to that moment. To hear that from a man who dedicated his life to this, gives me strength on my way.
We are fortunate to receive moments of intense clarity. It is a rare occurance, to be sure, but ever so more rare, are those individuals, who incorporate those clarities into their future, as a tinted lens, through which all experiences are enhanced.
Nice to see you in the club, Jazz.
Do you also treat animals same way...?
@@clayandputtyvideos1647 So that mean we should not eat meat ?, right ?
@@SudhirDudeja I stopped eating it 2years ago
@@SudhirDudeja would k not say, that is an ideology, that is separation in oneself, I like meat, but I should not eat it?
David has an amazingly lively mind.
Thanks for sharing.
So grateful these conversations took place and we can watch them in 2020. Psychologically
"As you can see in the politicians, thought is very limited. In fact, it is almost nonexistent."
Ha!
Reminds me of something Alan Watts once said about speaking to a room full of high-ranking military officers:
"I conveyed many degrading things about them all, and departed long before any realized it."
😆
marshalllhiepler Beauty has many wondrous forms.
We can also see in ourselves,as our knowledge is very limited and thought is a response from knowledge which is stored in brain as memory, so thought is also limited.Even the knowledge of the scientists are very miniscule, if consider cosmos.
Not thought but knowledge. He further adds we create confusion when we don't have adequate knowledge of what we are dealing with.
Jiddu laughing is a rare sight, heh
Just look at their humility🙏🙏🙏
Yes because where there is true wisdom there is humility.
Thinking together is so much better than thinking separately or competitively.
You summed it up.
Jennifer Grove Hmm? Try substituting “Thought” for “thinking” ?
It´s good to practice thinking as a hobby. Means you are taking it just the right amount of serious.
Very true
Thanks for the camera in the room when these men were alive and sat together for a conversation. This topic is still relevant in 2022.
Hi! I'm coming from the future (2024) to say it's relevant here too! 😀
Things are becoming increasingly crazy
This i one of the best conversation i have heard on freeing the mind there's so much insight listen with full attention
To all involved with making and sharing these uploads, your work is appreciated. 🌻
I think everything Krishnamurti explain is clear, logical, and directly understandable
But Bohm mind will not hear it because he tries to intellectually make sense of something that is not rational unless I experience this in ones body, he actually seems to be a rather un-embodied intellect
This is how should be ideal conversation ,, respecting eachother im just blown away by this wisdom oo my god. Thank you so much
Wow this is a treasure! Bohm’s questions are genuine and deep. The answers from Krishnamurthy changes something very fundamental in our understanding
the most happy and smiling krishnamurti I have ever seen❤️
This might be the best talk with Krishnamurti I have seen where his dialogue partner actually manages to evoke clarifications of Krishnamurti's somewhat unconventional understanding of key notions like time, thought, mind, pleasure, love etc and relate them to our Western understanding of such terms, pointing out the differences. He's really building a bridge, breaking the language barrier.
always insightful, wonderful, and comforting.... yes we are one.. so grateful that some wise soul decided to capture all of these conversations... thank you.
It takes tremendous intellect, confidence and clarity to question JK !! DB is shining in this one, as others have appreciated too! I loved JK’s expression at 33:20 as DB gently points out how the “insanity” of separateness isn’t evident to all!!
This talk is a blessing!! 😍🙏
arguably one of the best discussions ever happened on conciousness, mankind, psyche,etc. Thank you J. Krishnamurti - Official Channel.
I was really hoping he'd answer the last question "How could we make people see all this?" I feel that he didn't have the answer because people were still as they were and would not change. And i think that was his whole work and his whole life he talked to help people see all this. All his energy went into helping people understand this. He might not know it but his work is still helping people, still changing the world and will always help people. He was a man of real service
I’m discovering it’s not that people won’t change. It’s that I won’t change the way I see people.
@@terafreestone3596 beautiful Tera. Indeed.
We can't change because we have complex SOCIAL economical system
How sad.. 1:05 J. Krishnamurti describing the world how a lot of us experience up till today almost 40 years later.
But also remember that the world was like this in the early 20th century, too.
Imagine, Krishnamurti lived through World War 1, The Spanish Flu, The Great Depression, World War 2, The Cold War, and so on.
It's true the world is in a state of extreme chaos, but perhaps it was always like that, just we were not aware, we did not have the immediate experience of it.
In fact, if you live in a small community in some countryside area in Europe, the world is still chaos, but YOUR world is not chaos. The west experienced extreme peace while the middle east experienced extreme war and violence.
What's different now is that everyone's experience is intertwined. Which is really interesting. We are getting closer and closer to becoming "one" but at the same time scrambling around trying desperately to remain separate.
@@MrMadalien great comment !!
An excellent analysis 👏👏@@MrMadalien
Summary
1.All human's consciousness is one
2. knowledge is limited so thought is also limited
3 thought creat duality which further bring conflict
4 All kind of 'should be' is nothing but just escape from 'what is?'
5.Movement of time is thought which creat individuality .
Actually it is all about psychological time, right?
1. -
2. Knowledge is time (to think and to memorize needs time and space. and we build up from past experiences. So it's never "new"/fresh)
3. s. 2. Also: Thought operates in time. Time and Space (= movement) are one. Everything in Spacetime is dual.
4. Yes. "Should be" is a timebased escape
5. Time - Thought - Ego
The difference from the complete silence is individuality which is an illusion of perception
SB_Music psychological time is the only time you are perceiving. It is loosely based on real time...through perception..although one needs instruments of measurement to be sure
There is one thing that I would like to underline. K. is implying, that psychological time is thought, but inside there is no time. This is the bringer of chaos. I felt this when Mr. Bohm was making references to the table and so on, we seem to convince ourselves that the inside works the same way as the outside. Do you agree with me on this? Do you get what I am aiming at ? We copy the experience from the outside. This is the violence K. is talking about. Thought is also(as stated) experience. Without experiencer there is no experience. Because the experiencer is the self, copying, living from memory, knowledge, movements. This is why thought is a movement.
Can someone please go into this with me please. Does this make sense to you ? Because it is making a whole lot of sense to me. This is why when thought observes itself, everything stops, because our notion of time (inside) meets the time outside, in a different way, without memory! It is facing something new. This is real meditation.
@@DemoniacLL Wow! I must thank you for making me realise this. Thank you!
I bought this on vhs in the eighties and watched it many times.
In the end of video , the tragedy , or the pain in Krishnamurti voice we can feel " all that is it's right here , in the front , in this moment , but the tragedy of it is he can't show it, he can't push anyone here , everybody has to reach here on their own until then we all r just lost souls "
Thank you for sharing. It has moved me intensively. A privilege indeed!
It is so relevant even today! So glad to have this conversation available for everyone🙏
Amazing talk, truly great! What is so good about this one compared to K's public speeches is that there's D. Bohm who grounds K in the unfortunate reality of our dull minds which are completely absorbed in the illusions of thought. K is just so much ahead in terms of clarity of mind compared to the average human being that, if not for D. Bohm gentle approach, I feel the talk would lack all the crucial parts that provide at least some bridge to K's understanding of things. Something that is very much lacking in his public discussion or talks with D. Allen. Treasure!
dr bohm is such a gem man ❤️❤️❤️ he knows what to ask and how to ask it
Perfeito! Fico grato pelo trabalho de vocês e pelas palavras do Mestre
I've always loved Krishnamurti, since the first time I randomly saw his mug on a paperback in a bookstore in 1971 or so. But not only is David Bohm obviously brainy, he seems like such a good guy too.
We ARE all one, re spirit or who we really are; we are unique as to our physicality and how we were conditioned. This conversation makes so much sense to me. I am so grateful to know that I am not alone in my own realizations. WHEW! This conversation is truly a treat!
Exactly the experience is as it is. The thinker is the thought. One whole thought, one whole moment, only one whole is, that what it is. At last confirmation! Thank you for these liberating words. Freedom as the thought.
If only all exchanges were this rich. The audio is spectacular, the sounds of the birds and the hard left and right panning of each via Apple Airpod Max is nothing short of spectacular. Captures the stillness of a time just prior to the Internet Revolution - We are experiencing a such time right now- enormous change is imminent.
David Bohms work is growing more relevant each year
Like what does he getting proper reception in scientific community please share the matter.
Of all the talks and discussion that K has given, nobody quite listens, understands, and reiterates clearly like David Bohm.
Thank you for making this video available with subtitles in several languages. ❤
These are the conversations that we should seek to explore. I'm grateful this material is available amidst a manufactured "world" whose purpose is to invalidate who we are and lure us further away from our true nature.
"DON'T THINK YOU ARE, KNOW YOUR ARE"
Manleo M Hmm? Why not Thought you are Thinking as you are? Regards
These two put on a great discussion, very quick and lively. They both have fascinating and entertaining facial expressions. Thanks for posting it!
I noticed the same. Thank you for clarifying my thoughts lol much luv bro THANK You
Very deep and insightful discussion, great discussion.
Thank you for this. So grateful!
Expression of such a passion on humanity last part of conversation , amazingly serious , full of love
The beauty of this discussion between J Krishnamurti and David bohm is the subject they discussed and discussing of human psychic and consciousness of human being is still happening in our daily life, even today, as a fact
It is a necessity to follow and listen very carefully not only to this discussion but also to the other discussions as well in which these grate philosophers had discussed in that time. Those discussions are truly a real meditation.
David bohm and krishnamurti . spectacular team.
An enligting discussion. J krishnamurty is always enlighting.
I understand from this talk that 'mind' or 'thought' is the cause of suffering and that the 'direct perception' removes it.
Right to the heart. We are fortunate to hear this dialogue and the last part reminds me of the cave allegory
Gracias por el trabajo de traducción
Deep gratitude for this!
Loving it. It's so fulfilling
This is my favourite dialogue of all time so far.
The art of acceptance of reality 🙏
Thank you very much. ^_^
I find these two conversing so comforting.
Bohms honesty and openness is a rare thing and very valuable. I watched another conversation, I think it was another because it was black and white. Kmurti asks Bohm if he would like to have things explained sometimes, and Bohm says( paraphrasing) no, I dont, but for the sake of clarity for viewers please continue.
Watching this, as well as all the other JK videos, and with Dr Bohm, we can see an extraordinary conveyance of ideas, or truths, that define who we are and what our reality is. The depth is unequalled, and it is also quite easy to see how the self-appointed gurus of the day have no real realization of the self or consciousness. To look persistently and closely at the self brings about an understanding of why we are so troubled as individuals and as groups, nations, and so on. Paradoxically, though, it takes a rare type of person willing to see what is so obvious, which is also what leads to suffering on every level.
this conversation seems to suit the context we are living right now....
What I got from it is, The conscious processes are the same for everyone, but the body is individual. That thought is memory which depends on knowledge, and the accumulation of knowledge is infinite, therefore thought is limited by creating division through the ignorance of having limited experience. Memory creates time which creates thought and illusory ideals for the future, therefore time is a mental construction and the observer is the observed
Intelligence can act through memory and knowledge, but is distinct. To free intelligence/compassion, it must be freed from acting through thought.
Lovely work with subtitles
I thank Rupert Spira, from Non-dual, for beautifully and easily explain the divine I (that we all are) and the entity I (our personalities).
Wonderful discourse 😊
Perfect interview
Very informative! Thank you. 🙏
Simply
Thank you
If only all of the world could truly watch this NOW. To think of everyone, not just yourself. So simple, yet here we are....
I feel so sorry not to have met Krishnamurti in person. I was quite alive at his time. Could have met or at least have watched him personally.
Timeless wisdom
According to Wikipedia Jiddu Krishnamurti labeled as philosopher and David Bohm labeled as scientist respectively.
But their dialogue is not about science nor philosophy but "something completely different" (C) Monty Python.
Jk can't be termed as a philosopher.. But it's true that the english language doesn't have a word to define what Jk was doing.!
I could listen to these discussions for hours. Really makes you think. Maybe that’s the “problem” :)
Bloody loved it they spoke how people should 🌎🌏🌍
So valuable!
I never understood krishnamurti before watching this video.
Thanks mr. Bohm
Time emerges from Memory.
Fascinating to see these wise men tackle the big questions. In retrospect we now have a clearer understanding of the perception of time as a function of memory, intellect, identity and survival that enables us to recall past events we have experienced and develop strategies of self preservation for events that have not yet happened.
It's the entropy of emergent experience dancing in a field of quantum potential that gives the observer the illusion of separation and time.
I think Krishnamurti laid it out perfectly, there is no new discovery as he points at zero essentially. Timeless, Reality. This is timeless and what great masters have said in various ways for millennia. The "brain" wants to evolve the unevolvable. The only thing without opposite.
Great discussion.
The combined intellect in this interview is incomprehensible
I wonder if having such an intellect is a blessing or a curse?
I am so grateful
The consciousness can perceive the insight, which is not limited
Thank you David bohm and jiddu Krishnamurti.
Thk you!!
Best conversation ☺️
We lived on. Even know during a pandemic in 2020 we look back and ask “What would I have done differently”. We LIVE on.
Excellent point
The question is HOW would live on? Would you do the same things have the same thoughts act the same way...etc.?
@@lilisaadaoui6158 we individually might not live on. The humans as a specie, will live on. Would we learn anything and will get better prepared to take on next challenges? I doubt it. look at history, We never learn, but we live on. Same game, Different players.
yeah except a lot of people died, also the threat of nuclear war and global warming increases every day
We are living on , N O W.
I love this video 😍
a special bonding with each other.
I understand his question. When we're young there really is a time when we realise what we must do. We all have our mission. That's the "action not touched by thought" that he talks about. Not just a game-changer, but a life-changer, too. Something that sets the whole world on a completely other course.
It's impossible
57:35 brief summary.
Two most inquisitive minds. Their views do blend. Scientific view and highly spiritual is just two opposing same time contributing forces of dual reality, however they co-exist in the end.
Eccezionali tutti e due....
Mm
There is no end. But yes
Also notice the calmness and serenity in their talk. Love and compassion is vividly manifesting.
Amazing to have recorded such a great man talking with some one intelligent..
and very sad to seen he's right..
Fear or love/compassion seems to be the polarity that divides experience/humankind/ consciousness into actions of separation/fighting/competition or sharing/creating/embracing
I closed my eyes and just for a long moment listened past their unanswered questions and heard through their unquestioned answers... and heard the birds chirping in the background of the thoughts.
And a lion grabbing a dikdik and tearing it to pieces.
Nice
Mulțumesc
Krishnamurti’s perspective is very rooted in ancient Indian philosophies and Buddhism, for example in his discussion of name and form. Kudos to Bohm for taking on a discussion that many scientists of his time would not think to do. I do wish Bohm would have let K finish more of his thoughts as I believe he would have gained more insight into K’s worldview. These questions are addressed in Buddhism front and center in discussions of Dependent Co-Arising - essentially our knowledge as humans is limited and described by the Buddha within this framework. The Buddha also was influenced by ancient Indian philosophies that came before him. He was not a god, but an early psychologist. Fascinating that the answers to dealing, psychologically, with human suffering at an individual level were revealed 2,500 years ago by the Buddha in his teachings, and we are “discovering” bits of them today (mindfulness, generosity, meditation), but still can’t put them all together and save ourselves.
Very Prophetic 🙏🏼
❤️love them both ❤️
Agree or deny... Ignorance is a bliss... Keeping away from extra knowledge should be useful to be happy in conscious exist... 🙏
Nevertheless, the abstract discussion will stimulate the dull mind🙏🙏