Thanks again to Skinsmonkey for the sponsor: skinsmonkey.com/r/PENGUIN also i just wanted to add. I might be testing out some new forms of content in the coming weeks so keep your eyes open :0
@PenguinCS2 I like how you calculated how many match outcomes would change if they were MR12. But since the argument is about time, can you tell us how much longer these matches took had they been concluded at 13 rounds?
@@VrodegTheGoblin717 MR12 was the original, hopefully people give MR12 a chance and not just turn it down because in this community we like to hate on change despite it defining some of the most glorified moments in CS history.
I think I prefer the change, for esports especially. Just yesterday Shroud and Summit were talking about how best of 5's are super exhausting and the players don't enjoy playing that long. Best of 5's might be more common if the matches are shorter. Also, I despise that there are short and long matches, it just unnecessarily splits the queue's.
did Valve advocate that ? NO the Major final is BO3 no matter the TO they need to stick to that rules but these TO in their own tournament decide to use BO5, i prefer BO3 dont blame the game mechanics, try blame that TO
@@rotua98 sure, but i think theres merit in bo5 finals, i think its an excellent test of a teams map pool. if valve really want to keep major finals bo3 then whatever thats fine, but i dont hate it for other TO's
i love bo5 finals, really brings out the mental game of csgo, cologne 2022 was one of the best finals because of it. pro players get paid enough to shut up
What I really dislike about the idea of MR12, and why I swapped from val to cs, is the lack of ability to adapt within a half. Going down 7-0 in MR15 you can still eek out a 9-6 half which is not good but its better than your best possible half being 7-5, more likely to be 8-4 or 9-3. MR12 also is no way near short enough timewise to remove BO1s from pro play, a 3-mapper in MR12 will take hours more than a BO1 MR15, what it is likely to do is make BO1s feel less satisfying and increase upsets due to the variance of pistols and underdog teams needing to find less rounds, how many underdog teams have made early strides just to fall late after a better opponent figures them out.
Recently in IEM cologne the mongolz heroic second map would have ended much sooner and in favour of mongolz and that would be a huge upset. It's true that there aren't many games that would net a different result in mr12 but that game would be a very big difference.
This, I play in a team that sucks on early CT side and yesterday, we came back from 8-13 to 17-13 and that happens way more often than you'd think. Removing 6 rounds may not be a very big deal in random pugs where the outcome of the game is decided whenever one team tilts but in a competitive setting It's quite frightening !
your first mistake is playing valorant, the second is thinking you cannot clutch back from a 0-7 in csgo without teleporting, invulnerability, invisibility, or flying.
queue times are good as they are, i'm more concerned with the current state of rank and overall balance of matches - which would also be improved as there will be a larger pool of players the game can choose from
I saw a graph the other day that suggested that higher ranks prefer MR15 and lower ranks prefer MR12, I don't say this to say one is better than the other, but to say that this shouldn't lower queue time very much. In a properly functioning MM system, these players shouldn't get matched together anyways.
A reduction in queue times would also happen assuming that most players play mr15 as they will have to queue more often and therefore more people will be in the queue. From who I know a lot more people play long than short
@@armeretta Huh? I saw this graph and its % of games played at short (MR8) vs long (MR15), which did show at silver its short games mostly, and slowly built up to long games at the other end in global. But what if you wanna q short games as a global, what if you wanna q long as silver? It %100 destroys q times for people on the ends that dont wanna q the most popular mode at their ranks. Thats a problem. Even the people in the middle get their player pool cut in half. Clearly the current system isn't great.
I think most people are not mad that pistol rounds exists, but that they are very impactful even for a mr15, in mr12 they will become even more impactful making them basically a certain win condition.
Also worth noting that if you look ay games like Valorant with mr12, pistol rounds only give teams a 65% win rate if they win both pistols. Plus there is a 30% chance of winning the force buy second round and many other factors, and the economy is scaled the proper way, I actually would go as far as to say that it wouldnt change pistol round impact much at all.
@@HypeMidnight isn't a 30% win differential really huge for 2 rounds? Like one team has more than double the chance of winning by winning 2 particular rounds. What's the win differential when a team is at 10 vs 8 for example. You're 2 rounds up but I doubt it's even close to 65/35.
@@HypeMidnight the issue with comparing to val is that force buy wins on val are much more common. even if val switched to mr15, pistol wins would still be less impactful there than in CSGO mr15.
I don't know if I agree about BO1s going away because of the implementation of MR12. They aren't thaaat much shorter time-wise, and there is going to be more server downtime as we switch between maps. A BO3 MR12 is going to be considerably larger than a BO1 MR15. I also don't think that many teams are one tricking maps, upsetting a top tier team in a BO1 is just something that happens because of variance and the inherent advantage unknown players have when anti-stratting. I'm willing to try MR12, but I think people act a little too optimistic about rebalancing the economy. The CS economy is extremely finicky, add five bullets to the M4A1S, it is the only Ct rifle in the game; make the Krieg $150 less, the Krieg is the only viable T side Rifle, increase the UMP's falloff damage by a few points, and it goes from the only SMG used to never being touched again... All of these little changes can flip the entire meta on it's head. I think the economy we have now in CSGO is integral to the essence of CS. It took 10+ years to get it to this point, where most guns are competitively viable. Part of me just wishes that they would further develop the economy we have NOW, as opposed to making a change that could set us back. Right now I think the economy is the most balanced that it has ever been. I still see AUGs and Kriegs on certain maps/positions, Auto-snipers, shotguns, deags/p250s/tech-9s... We have the most variety that we've ever had in any iteration of the game
You could argue less rounds means higher valued items are higher risk, higher reward as you either gain the value for a greater amount of the game, or lose eco for a greater amount of the game, so overall the eco doesnt change as much as the risk reward does
@@miniyodadude6604 you could say this, but if you really think about how rounds are played out in cs pro play it can be very boring, now add even more risk to your poor decision and now you have less chance to try it. I love esports, but man are some games soooo boring nothing happens in them, one team wins slowly, I aint gonna watch ct side do nothing and T side take 10 years to get an entry or try to site execute last minute every single round as they're afraid to risk their economy...
glad to hear someone mention chargers only again, havent heard it come up since a thorin vid from like 6 years ago. Although I see the argument about CTs being incentivized to stall the clock out, it would also deter Ts from wanting to save for a whole ass round. I agree though, I've been hoping for a chargers only showmatch forever. if anything, its the perfect format for a showmatch since you know exactly how long a game is going to take. i doubt ties are very common in the format so it would be pretty easy to give each team 20 minutes and call it a day
Seems like a good change, I have always played MR15 because MR8 matches just seem way too short for me, but there were times where i was contemplating whether or not to queue up for a game due to time constrictions.
I played mr8 for a year now and only last night I decided to switch again to mr15 just for the sake of it. Dominated the entire match, until the end when we couldnt and lost dramaticaly. So, safe to say I do not want to lose 40-50 minutes of my meaningless existence for a match I ll probably just lose, instead of wasting the same amount of time losing one and winning another, or losing both as it usually happens(maybe winning both? if am premade)
honestly, I've been playing exclusively short matches for the past year and I can say I like it a lot more than the long games.. but It's of course a different story when we're talking about the majors and the pros. First round is gonna be so important, maybe even deciding the halftime.
Totally new, unique, and never seen before buy menu, 12 round halves, what's next? Will we have to select an agent at the beginning of the game that comes with special abilities???
I just am very worried about eco balance. Hopefully they can do it well Also I think mr15 should be at least available as like a classic mode or something, I feel like it's too iconic to let completely disappear
Collecting current MR15 data to see who reaches 13 round wins first is a bit flawed because it still includes the last 3 rounds of the first half, which skews data to favor whoever had the better side during the first half. But you can't just remove those rounds from the data either, because teams' economy choices might have been different. For example, you would never save on round 12. So it's complicated, and it's impossible to see exactly how MR12 will work until we see it in action.
I personally don't like there being two queues for competitive. I like playing long matches, but I understand why some people don't have the time/don't want to play them. I agree with you that mr12 would not hurt to give it a shot. The only thing I don't really like it is might throw off balance if valve does not do a good job with it. I also don't really like the fact that valorant and csgo are trying to become the same game, so I like the fact that csgo is mr15. Anyways man keep up the good work your videos are fire🔥
Excellent vid, man! I'm so very glad that you analyzed 'first to 13 rounds' typically are 90% likely to win the map. Man, would have been JUICY if you also did these calcs for other majors to really hammer it home. Still aroused though
I would be devastated if pistolrounds would be taken out. I rock it mostly, out of 10 pistol rounds at least 7 lands in our favor. It is really important as if you win it dominantly not only you get a better money for the second round, but you hut a bit of fear in your enemies.
I went through the recent Gamers8 tournament and checked, and it was still 90% of games were won by who hit 13 first. I think it's definitely interesting and I hope someone more motivated than me goes back and checks other tournaments. (37 maps played at Gamers8, 34 maps won by the team that hit 13 first ; Heroic V Falcons (Mirage), Heroic V Ence (Nuke), G2 V Vitality (Mirage) were outliers. 4/5 of the top teams right now so definitely seems more rounds benefit the most "competitive" games but with the time saved maybe there could've been a lower bracket for the tournament and not just single elim ? )
Note: The clip with HeatoN at 7:24 is not originally played in CS1.6, that was back in version 1.3 I think, but he used a coverter from CS1.3-demo to work on 1.6.
I like it. One of the many problems with csgo MM is that the player base is split between short match queue and long match queue. Wait times are longer and this affects rank disparity if there are less people queuing at that moment. Since they got rid of short matches then this should be a good thing in a sense. Maybe they’ll have to adjust the economy a bit but overall I’m in support of the change.
recently heard Get Right saying before MR12 was a thing in early CSGO days and even events were played on MR12, they just didn't find that sweet spot with economy on MR12 and some bugs but with how much devs are really putting in the work I'm confident that it will be better and not scuffed. Edit: I said that during the first half of the video. I just reached the part where you talk about the MR12 days 👍
CS was played competitive with MR12 in the very early days (early 2000s) and it worked pretty good. Pistol rounds were much more important which I really enjoyed.
As someone who loves CS. Id always prefer longer matches. The fact teams can make mistakes but still be able to pull together to win the map is gonna be less likely on MR12. But for me i will always love and watch cs no matter the rounds, just like most other fans. So i understand the idea of MR12 being more appealing to casual fans and bringing more people into playing the game so it can grow. And in my book, id be down to give up MR15 to have this game grow more
Our game has not always been MR15. In the really early days, halves were time based - i remember 10 min, 20 min, 30 min halves. Also remember thaf MR12 was a thing in presteam cs1.6. MR15 was an evolution and has been rusted on for a while and i do like it but I reckon MR12 will be awesome! Loved the video - great take on the history
yep. there has been all sort of modes. timelimit was fun but had a a problem with camping in certain situations, where attackers would play the clock. mr improved on this
Removing pistol rounds would "distill the game to a more pure form of cs" Adding MR12 would "RUIN THE GAME BECAUSE MR15 IS INTEGRAL TO CS AND ITS IDENTITY!!" The community is full of babies
My main issue with it is that valve is most likely going to delete csgo and not save it the way the did 1.6 and source. IMO CSGO is in a near perfect state rn, whether or not you agree we should still be able to access it.
mr12 was used long time ago i am sure i was playing it on 1.5 and maybe in beginning of 1.6 and was abandoned to reduce importance of pistols and since now in go we have smg shotguns and pistols that are competitive making eco rounds more dangerous we can try shorten it back
For the sake of argument, I don’t think you can compare how many different outcomes of matches there would’ve been if it was MR 13. If you’re playing MR 13, as a team, whether you’re a coach or an in game leader you’re playing a completely different game.....so while I do understand the inclusion of that as an argument for MR13 it’s in my mind, it's null and void because your comparing two different types of matches....
When I saw the news come out that CS would be changing to MR12, I was pretty against it. I had the mentality of "It's always been MR15 why change it?", but after thinking about it for a while and going through your points in the video, I think the change to MR12 will be a net positive for the community if the economy is balanced right. I'm in the camp of players that actually prefer short matches over regular length matches, and I've been playing CS for most of my life at this point. Even though the economy can get a little screwed in MR8, the faster pace of matches lets me get through more matches in a session, and when I'm getting completely 9-0'd, it's less agonizing and time consuming than a 15-0. As much as I love MR15, sometimes I really don't want to sit in a match for over an hour, and during professional Bo5's it can quickly spiral into an all day series and more of a question of which team can mentally stand 5+ hours of matches instead of who can perform at their peak for each game. Great work with the video, you're really starting to become one of my favorite CS content creators. Keep up the awesome work.
I just had a 9-0 comeback not to long ago, not everyone gives up when their down. for people who actually try in a COMPETATIVE game. mr12 is a worse outcome for them.
I don't believe comparing comebacks in this context is appropriate. If teams played using the MR12 format, their strategies would differ. It's not possible to directly equate the Boston major comeback to an MR12 scenario because the dynamics of the game would change entirely with a different starting point.
I'd give MR12 a try. It might work with the gameplay changes from CS2 like being able to sell your weapons, being able to drop utility, new smoke mechanics, "infinite tick rate," and MaYbE no or less cheaters. That and less CS:GO moments with the Source 2 engine.
I think something important to take into consideration that a lot of other games devs don't do is that the pro scene isn't the be all and end all of the game. Imo, changes shouldn't be judged around how it will affect the pro level, it should be first and foremost centred around how it will affect the average player, and then how it impacts the pro level should be considered second.
I remember back in the day (way back) when "they" changed the round-timer from 4 min to 2 min. Me and alot of other people where skeptical about the change back then but nowadays I dont know how we even managed to play those long rounds ..
I dont think mr12 is really fun imo, i hate how important pistol rounds become. If they are to implement that outside of the beta then i hope they at the very least remove the draw feature and make overtime a matchmaking standard. At the very least remove the draw so that when the underdog team catches up to the leading team they get the chance to brawl it out till the end. And please dont make the overtimes drawable like valorant.
MR12 will work great if the loss is adjusted. So that there is an occasional eco but removed double eco situations, but not allowing for continously force buying. So possibly reducing initial loss bonus, and then increase the second loss bonus.
great vid and an interesting change to the game. happy to see the devs try new ideas to spice the game. cant wait to see the people's reaction to all the changes to cs2 once it's released
Played some mr12 ten mans with Wilson’s discord and honestly it didn’t bother me as much as I thought it would. It almost felt like nothing changed, it was just shorter.
I like the change personally. I got to the point in CSGO where I pretty much only played short matches because regular matches felt way too long. At the same time I felt like short matches were a bit too short, so it’s nice for MR12 to just be the standard across the board and you only get overtime if the game is neck and neck which means the game’s good, but if you’re getting obliterated then it’s over a lot quicker than MR15.
I have a question for you, because I dont have the data and dont really want to look it up. How many matches were 12:12 meaning overtime in mr12? Meaning economy "reset" for both teams. One thing I really dislike about mr12 is that how problematic it might be if you loose a few rounds as a ct on a heavy ct map like nuke. For example last finals on gamers8 with vitality vs ence. The half would end with a 6:6 score line instead of ence winning the half 9:6 (as far as I remeber). Sure they still lost but it feels like mr15 gave them more wigle room to possibly adjust to the game more and let to a more interesting game imo
Imo the fact that most games' results wouldn't change isn't a good point. Teams prepare for MR15 and changing it to MR12 would impact their strategies.
There is a logical flaw saying that 0 games would have a different outcome if they were mr12 instead of mr15 based on mr15 data because the teams are not even trying to reach 13 first. They could even decide to eco or save on these rounds because 16 is the magic number for them. If it was mr12 the whole game would be different from the very beginning
I remember the early days of playing competetive cod4 we did mr12 during the season but mr15 for finals, man finals felt like matches went on forever. It'll be a good change, will take the community years to accept it though lmao
in mr12 the worse team would just win more often. and mistakes would have a grater punish. making player play more safe. witch result in less cool plays
In a bo1 yes, but this would make bo3 and bo5 more viable for more games, which would more than balance it out. Fewer qualifiers would need to be bo1 for time constraints
@@tomhenrik1481 bo3 would be fine for MR12, economy definitely needs some minor tweaks but otherwise I think it would work well. And given the amount of games that some tournaments have to get through, it would be a big help, at the moment some games are bo1 and then some bo3 in the group qualifiers. With this, they might be able to make them all bo3. The key thing that needs to happen is reduce the weight of the pistol round. My suggestion is giving an extra 500-1000 to every player just on 2nd round, it does give the winning team a better buy, but also gives the losing side a way better force buy or a proper full buy on 3rd. where often (especially CT) are still forced to reduce nades, kits, helmets because of the tough economy.
I don’t think the comparison with cologne and getting to 13 rounds is viable, because in mr15 you play 15 round t and ct (if it’s a full game ofc) and in mr12 you play only 12 rounds t and ct. The way some maps are makes them more t or ct sided so it will be very different how you get to 13 rounds in mr12 and how you get to 13 rounds in mr15
thanks for another banger this view made me rethink my opion on the change and i agree that if done right i could be interesting but its not gonna be easy but im here for some wacky times the next bit of time
I played MR12 back in the very early 2000's in the ESL (and even fixed side time before that) and it was horrible for one single reason: If you lost the pistol round you have to full eco once and could buy a deagle with 1-2 clips max in the next round. So you effectively had two full eco rounds no matter what. And it wasn't like you could force buy a 57, tec9, zeus, cz, these weapons didn't exist / were horrible. So if you lost the pistol round in at least 95% of all cases you were down 0:3. And that not even close. You got rekt with your usps and glocks. So MR12 back then was bad. That's why ESL decided to increase the MR to 15 so the pistol round has less effect. This was a very good decision. Now. 15-20 years forward - we have loser bonus and a ton of eco and force buy guns which are very good. In pro level CS many eco/force buy rounds are won thus why we see force buy wars where teams force buy against each other back and fourth. So MR15 isn't necessary out of economies perspective. This goes further. Pros don't like MR15 because playing BO3's and even BO5's is extremely exhausting and you notice that player are getting tired already on the third map. Also casual player (no matter if silver 1 or faceit 5k elo) often don't have time to play a MR15 games. It's a very long commitmend. But short matches are too short. MR12 is the perfect balance between short and long matches. This is another huge argument pro MR12. Also statistics have shown that nearly 50% of the MM matches were played in short matches, showing that shorter matches are attractive and viable economywise. The reason why two MR modes are bad tho is because it splits the community which means queue times are longer and rank ranges higher. If economy would still be an issue it could get fixed way easier by changing the losing bonus by very little. MR12 is the way to go and only logical conclusion. I btw. say this for years now. So I'm happy that valve finally changes it aswell. Also arguments like "the boston major wouldn't have happend" are nonsens. In germany we've a saying for stupid arguments like that: "Hätte hätte, Fahrradkette". It makes fun of people saying "oh if that would be the case this would've happend yadayada". It's all just waste of thinking because you never know what would've happend really. We could also argue that way more finals would have boton major happenings if we had MR12. We never know. So no reason to use this even as an argument. Btw. we have the same fear of changes in the discussion of buy menu aswell. Most who play CSGO are very young and never played Source, 1.6 or older titles. They've no experience with it, grew up with MR15 and the horrible buywheel and think both is the only way CS works. I can tell you. It's not. Humans are habital animals but I can asure you: You don't have to fear changes. They can be better. Much better than what you're used to. The new buy system is great. MR12 is great. Tolerate it first, then you'll accept it, then you'll love it.
Old video was Heaton on Aztec and Markeloff on DD2, back in 1.3 and 1.5 if you lost pistol it would be a full save in second round cus less rounds to make it up. Its going to be great to see teams come up with new MR12 buy meta.
As someone who plays pretty casually every once in a while I sorta like the shorter rounds since then I don't need to make as much as a big time commitment when playing.
I'd love to have MR12 as an option and probably have it over short matches' MR8 but I feel like there needs to be major changes to the economy before MR15 is removed, every map will likely become extremely T sided, matchmaking is already pretty T sided as it is even on "ct sided maps" as its just easier to make a structured attack then a structured defense with random people with random playstyles and wanting to play whatever positions. CT guns just cost too much for the current economy. I think one of the reasons MR12 works well in Valorant mainly imo cause the weapon costs are equal over each side. I'd be happy to see MR12 in the pro scene but theyd have to switch play off games to bo5s because otherwise the final's streams which have 2 bo3s a day each just go by a bit quick
Enjoyed the video, although I think a few of the points raised aren't perfectly accurate or at least incomplete. It would be better to use more events than just Cologne to show match result differences under MR12, and you also have to bear in mind that maybe decision making would have been different (leading to different results) if MR12 was used. So I'd be interested to see a video showing points on both sides rather than just points defending MR12, especially if you yourself aren't sold on the idea. That fast paced concept was really interesting though I'm glad you put that in the video.
Something I don't see mention, with MR12 bo5 can actually be a thing, because now games arent as long for both players and viewers. However if bo5 are to be common, teams now have to learn all maps as they can't have a permaban in bo5, that would be another debate of its own.
my issue is that it reduces the chess like nature of professional cs, this is similar to reducing the time in football from 90 minutes down to 60. if we do mr12 and get rid of ecos it stops an important part of the chess game of csgo, at that point economy doesnt matter as much which is one of the most important parts that define csgo
Good change for me, one major reason I never really got so heavily into CS but did with valorant instead, is that on valorant I can queue 2 games in a row while in CS I often can just do 1/1 and a half which I'll obviously not queue the second game if I don't have enough time to finish it...
I play a lot of Valorant and CS and I definitely prefer mr12 over mr15. That being said I love mr8 for casual 5v5 because it feels a lot less important and more fun to mess around on. 😊
Mr12 has been tried and replaced 20 years ago like you said. I think this change is more to appeal to valorant players/people with low attention spans that call CS matches “long and boring”. I don’t think the core of what makes this game so great (comeback potential in high stakes tournaments) needs to be thrown away just for the sake of appealing to a broader audience and bringing more players to the game. Not only that but the necessary economic changes that will have to be made will throw the community into a rage for months on end once this game releases. Then again I’m a 32 year old dad that only plays a few times a week and I like the longer games for that reason.
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also i just wanted to add. I might be testing out some new forms of content in the coming weeks so keep your eyes open :0
@PenguinCS2 I like how you calculated how many match outcomes would change if they were MR12. But since the argument is about time, can you tell us how much longer these matches took had they been concluded at 13 rounds?
I'm all for giving mr12 a try I just hope they are open to reverting the changes if it's not received very well by the community after some testing
Testing for sure, but the MR12 fanboys and the Pro side of CS might be too loud.
it's valve. they won't.
This isn't a test, it's valve. It's here for good. The only way they revert is if there's a compete outcry and players quit.
@@VrodegTheGoblin717 MR12 was the original, hopefully people give MR12 a chance and not just turn it down because in this community we like to hate on change despite it defining some of the most glorified moments in CS history.
The CS community is infamous for hating any change to anything so they definitely are gonna complain
I think I prefer the change, for esports especially. Just yesterday Shroud and Summit were talking about how best of 5's are super exhausting and the players don't enjoy playing that long. Best of 5's might be more common if the matches are shorter. Also, I despise that there are short and long matches, it just unnecessarily splits the queue's.
did Valve advocate that ? NO
the Major final is BO3 no matter the TO they need to stick to that rules
but these TO in their own tournament decide to use BO5, i prefer BO3
dont blame the game mechanics, try blame that TO
@@rotua98 sure, but i think theres merit in bo5 finals, i think its an excellent test of a teams map pool. if valve really want to keep major finals bo3 then whatever thats fine, but i dont hate it for other TO's
Shroud and summit are 2 clowns , who are not pro players
short match should be casual only
i love bo5 finals, really brings out the mental game of csgo, cologne 2022 was one of the best finals because of it.
pro players get paid enough to shut up
What I really dislike about the idea of MR12, and why I swapped from val to cs, is the lack of ability to adapt within a half. Going down 7-0 in MR15 you can still eek out a 9-6 half which is not good but its better than your best possible half being 7-5, more likely to be 8-4 or 9-3. MR12 also is no way near short enough timewise to remove BO1s from pro play, a 3-mapper in MR12 will take hours more than a BO1 MR15, what it is likely to do is make BO1s feel less satisfying and increase upsets due to the variance of pistols and underdog teams needing to find less rounds, how many underdog teams have made early strides just to fall late after a better opponent figures them out.
Recently in IEM cologne the mongolz heroic second map would have ended much sooner and in favour of mongolz and that would be a huge upset. It's true that there aren't many games that would net a different result in mr12 but that game would be a very big difference.
This, I play in a team that sucks on early CT side and yesterday, we came back from 8-13 to 17-13 and that happens way more often than you'd think. Removing 6 rounds may not be a very big deal in random pugs where the outcome of the game is decided whenever one team tilts but in a competitive setting It's quite frightening !
No one cares about that Valorant switch for those reasons xd.
your first mistake is playing valorant, the second is thinking you cannot clutch back from a 0-7 in csgo without teleporting, invulnerability, invisibility, or flying.
you'te @@lukabrasi001
Changing it for matchmaking to mr12 would reduce the queue times significantly since it'd unify the entire queue
queue times are good as they are, i'm more concerned with the current state of rank and overall balance of matches - which would also be improved as there will be a larger pool of players the game can choose from
I saw a graph the other day that suggested that higher ranks prefer MR15 and lower ranks prefer MR12, I don't say this to say one is better than the other, but to say that this shouldn't lower queue time very much. In a properly functioning MM system, these players shouldn't get matched together anyways.
A reduction in queue times would also happen assuming that most players play mr15 as they will have to queue more often and therefore more people will be in the queue. From who I know a lot more people play long than short
a recent leetify analysis shows that the split is almost 50/50@@deficientduck3003
@@armeretta Huh? I saw this graph and its % of games played at short (MR8) vs long (MR15), which did show at silver its short games mostly, and slowly built up to long games at the other end in global. But what if you wanna q short games as a global, what if you wanna q long as silver? It %100 destroys q times for people on the ends that dont wanna q the most popular mode at their ranks. Thats a problem. Even the people in the middle get their player pool cut in half. Clearly the current system isn't great.
I think most people are not mad that pistol rounds exists, but that they are very impactful even for a mr15, in mr12 they will become even more impactful making them basically a certain win condition.
“Basically a certain win condition” is beyond hyperbolic. Especially at the average level of play
Also worth noting that if you look ay games like Valorant with mr12, pistol rounds only give teams a 65% win rate if they win both pistols. Plus there is a 30% chance of winning the force buy second round and many other factors, and the economy is scaled the proper way, I actually would go as far as to say that it wouldnt change pistol round impact much at all.
@@HypeMidnight yeah i agree it really comes down to the balance in the economy with this type of change. could be more or even less significant
@@HypeMidnight isn't a 30% win differential really huge for 2 rounds? Like one team has more than double the chance of winning by winning 2 particular rounds. What's the win differential when a team is at 10 vs 8 for example. You're 2 rounds up but I doubt it's even close to 65/35.
@@HypeMidnight the issue with comparing to val is that force buy wins on val are much more common. even if val switched to mr15, pistol wins would still be less impactful there than in CSGO mr15.
Important to note that 2000-2003 rulesets also had round times of 3-5 minutes.
I don't want short matches to go away. I love being able to jump on Cs and knock out a couple games in under an hour.
they should add an option to allow overtime or not
I don't know if I agree about BO1s going away because of the implementation of MR12. They aren't thaaat much shorter time-wise, and there is going to be more server downtime as we switch between maps. A BO3 MR12 is going to be considerably larger than a BO1 MR15. I also don't think that many teams are one tricking maps, upsetting a top tier team in a BO1 is just something that happens because of variance and the inherent advantage unknown players have when anti-stratting.
I'm willing to try MR12, but I think people act a little too optimistic about rebalancing the economy. The CS economy is extremely finicky, add five bullets to the M4A1S, it is the only Ct rifle in the game; make the Krieg $150 less, the Krieg is the only viable T side Rifle, increase the UMP's falloff damage by a few points, and it goes from the only SMG used to never being touched again... All of these little changes can flip the entire meta on it's head. I think the economy we have now in CSGO is integral to the essence of CS. It took 10+ years to get it to this point, where most guns are competitively viable. Part of me just wishes that they would further develop the economy we have NOW, as opposed to making a change that could set us back. Right now I think the economy is the most balanced that it has ever been. I still see AUGs and Kriegs on certain maps/positions, Auto-snipers, shotguns, deags/p250s/tech-9s... We have the most variety that we've ever had in any iteration of the game
Well said.
You could argue less rounds means higher valued items are higher risk, higher reward as you either gain the value for a greater amount of the game, or lose eco for a greater amount of the game, so overall the eco doesnt change as much as the risk reward does
@@miniyodadude6604 you could say this, but if you really think about how rounds are played out in cs pro play it can be very boring, now add even more risk to your poor decision and now you have less chance to try it. I love esports, but man are some games soooo boring nothing happens in them, one team wins slowly, I aint gonna watch ct side do nothing and T side take 10 years to get an entry or try to site execute last minute every single round as they're afraid to risk their economy...
glad to hear someone mention chargers only again, havent heard it come up since a thorin vid from like 6 years ago. Although I see the argument about CTs being incentivized to stall the clock out, it would also deter Ts from wanting to save for a whole ass round. I agree though, I've been hoping for a chargers only showmatch forever. if anything, its the perfect format for a showmatch since you know exactly how long a game is going to take. i doubt ties are very common in the format so it would be pretty easy to give each team 20 minutes and call it a day
Seems like a good change, I have always played MR15 because MR8 matches just seem way too short for me, but there were times where i was contemplating whether or not to queue up for a game due to time constrictions.
Same, i play MR15 in most cases but if im short on time i enjoy a quick MR8 maybe they could keep MR8 as casual
I played mr8 for a year now and only last night I decided to switch again to mr15 just for the sake of it. Dominated the entire match, until the end when we couldnt and lost dramaticaly. So, safe to say I do not want to lose 40-50 minutes of my meaningless existence for a match I ll probably just lose, instead of wasting the same amount of time losing one and winning another, or losing both as it usually happens(maybe winning both? if am premade)
I don't want 24 rounds 30 is the perfect length.
honestly, I've been playing exclusively short matches for the past year and I can say I like it a lot more than the long games.. but It's of course a different story when we're talking about the majors and the pros. First round is gonna be so important, maybe even deciding the halftime.
Totally new, unique, and never seen before buy menu, 12 round halves, what's next? Will we have to select an agent at the beginning of the game that comes with special abilities???
I just am very worried about eco balance. Hopefully they can do it well
Also I think mr15 should be at least available as like a classic mode or something, I feel like it's too iconic to let completely disappear
you know damn well that no one would touch mr12. that gamemode would be dead from the first day.
Mr12 is classic tbh. The older generation players will love m12 again.
Why not just leaving mr8 and mr15 for unranked only?
I loved when mr8 came out since mr15 is much to long for me, but im not sure how i’ll like mr12
In my experience mr15 is better because you can come back due to economy being more important but it is annoying that it can take an hour.
an hour that youll never forget. 16-14 comebacks hit DIFFERENT
@@cicolas_nage dont care mr15 clears
@@cicolas_nage dog shitter with no heart want mr12, people with heart want the long matches
@@g1rthquakeyhope you'll keep not caring when it gets replaced and accept the reality.
@@dr_birb ill just go outside. I couldn’t give less of a shit💀
Collecting current MR15 data to see who reaches 13 round wins first is a bit flawed because it still includes the last 3 rounds of the first half, which skews data to favor whoever had the better side during the first half.
But you can't just remove those rounds from the data either, because teams' economy choices might have been different. For example, you would never save on round 12. So it's complicated, and it's impossible to see exactly how MR12 will work until we see it in action.
It’s like saying 12 and 15 are the same number. 😄
I personally don't like there being two queues for competitive. I like playing long matches, but I understand why some people don't have the time/don't want to play them. I agree with you that mr12 would not hurt to give it a shot. The only thing I don't really like it is might throw off balance if valve does not do a good job with it. I also don't really like the fact that valorant and csgo are trying to become the same game, so I like the fact that csgo is mr15. Anyways man keep up the good work your videos are fire🔥
Excellent vid, man! I'm so very glad that you analyzed 'first to 13 rounds' typically are 90% likely to win the map. Man, would have been JUICY if you also did these calcs for other majors to really hammer it home. Still aroused though
they should make it so if i win 40+ in a row, I rank up. and if i lose 1, i DONT derank. all we want
mr12 is working fine for me as it doesn't feel too long or too short, as valve intended
I would be devastated if pistolrounds would be taken out. I rock it mostly, out of 10 pistol rounds at least 7 lands in our favor. It is really important as if you win it dominantly not only you get a better money for the second round, but you hut a bit of fear in your enemies.
I went through the recent Gamers8 tournament and checked, and it was still 90% of games were won by who hit 13 first. I think it's definitely interesting and I hope someone more motivated than me goes back and checks other tournaments. (37 maps played at Gamers8, 34 maps won by the team that hit 13 first ; Heroic V Falcons (Mirage), Heroic V Ence (Nuke), G2 V Vitality (Mirage) were outliers. 4/5 of the top teams right now so definitely seems more rounds benefit the most "competitive" games but with the time saved maybe there could've been a lower bracket for the tournament and not just single elim ? )
After playing now for a week or two, mr12 is sooooo much better
Note: The clip with HeatoN at 7:24 is not originally played in CS1.6, that was back in version 1.3 I think, but he used a coverter from CS1.3-demo to work on 1.6.
I like it. One of the many problems with csgo MM is that the player base is split between short match queue and long match queue. Wait times are longer and this affects rank disparity if there are less people queuing at that moment. Since they got rid of short matches then this should be a good thing in a sense. Maybe they’ll have to adjust the economy a bit but overall I’m in support of the change.
recently heard Get Right saying before MR12 was a thing in early CSGO days and even events were played on MR12, they just didn't find that sweet spot with economy on MR12 and some bugs but with how much devs are really putting in the work I'm confident that it will be better and not scuffed.
Edit: I said that during the first half of the video. I just reached the part where you talk about the MR12 days 👍
CS was played competitive with MR12 in the very early days (early 2000s) and it worked pretty good. Pistol rounds were much more important which I really enjoyed.
As someone who loves CS. Id always prefer longer matches. The fact teams can make mistakes but still be able to pull together to win the map is gonna be less likely on MR12. But for me i will always love and watch cs no matter the rounds, just like most other fans. So i understand the idea of MR12 being more appealing to casual fans and bringing more people into playing the game so it can grow. And in my book, id be down to give up MR15 to have this game grow more
This is def the play, it’s gonna take multiple economy patches for it to feel right though.
CS should try MR2. First team to lead by two points wins. No possible problems could arise from this.
Counter-Strike messiah LMAO HAAHAH
much love
I am allergic to people who are allergic to change.
Chargers only was last used at the omen challange 2017, I remember it being fun to watch :)
Our game has not always been MR15. In the really early days, halves were time based - i remember 10 min, 20 min, 30 min halves. Also remember thaf MR12 was a thing in presteam cs1.6. MR15 was an evolution and has been rusted on for a while and i do like it but I reckon MR12 will be awesome! Loved the video - great take on the history
yep. there has been all sort of modes. timelimit was fun but had a a problem with camping in certain situations, where attackers would play the clock. mr improved on this
CS2 should try MR2. First team to lead by two points wins. no problems could arise from this.
Nah, we just need one round. Whoever wins pistol round wins the game. Sudden death shit.
copied comment
@@madmann5872 it’s from the description idiot
I welcome the MR12. MR15 feels too long, I can only play one or two games a day, but with short matches I can crank out a bunch more.
Removing pistol rounds would "distill the game to a more pure form of cs"
Adding MR12 would "RUIN THE GAME BECAUSE MR15 IS INTEGRAL TO CS AND ITS IDENTITY!!"
The community is full of babies
My main issue with it is that valve is most likely going to delete csgo and not save it the way the did 1.6 and source. IMO CSGO is in a near perfect state rn, whether or not you agree we should still be able to access it.
How would they do that when there hundreds of thousands of community made maps?
@@Spetsnaztyvalve made a porter so that you can port csgo maps into cs2
You probably will be able to play it in betas section I think as we can still download the first csgo version from there
I think they would just disable competitive and let community servers run
Its not on a perfect state, it's just not really possible to optimize it anymore because the engine is running with it's last forces.
Talking about comebacks while EG is getting 16-0'd in the background was a nice touch.
mr12 was used long time ago i am sure i was playing it on 1.5 and maybe in beginning of 1.6 and was abandoned to reduce importance of pistols and since now in go we have smg shotguns and pistols that are competitive making eco rounds more dangerous we can try shorten it back
For the sake of argument, I don’t think you can compare how many different outcomes of matches there would’ve been if it was MR 13.
If you’re playing MR 13, as a team, whether you’re a coach or an in game leader you’re playing a completely different game.....so while I do understand the inclusion of that as an argument for MR13 it’s in my mind, it's null and void because your comparing two different types of matches....
When I saw the news come out that CS would be changing to MR12, I was pretty against it. I had the mentality of "It's always been MR15 why change it?", but after thinking about it for a while and going through your points in the video, I think the change to MR12 will be a net positive for the community if the economy is balanced right.
I'm in the camp of players that actually prefer short matches over regular length matches, and I've been playing CS for most of my life at this point. Even though the economy can get a little screwed in MR8, the faster pace of matches lets me get through more matches in a session, and when I'm getting completely 9-0'd, it's less agonizing and time consuming than a 15-0.
As much as I love MR15, sometimes I really don't want to sit in a match for over an hour, and during professional Bo5's it can quickly spiral into an all day series and more of a question of which team can mentally stand 5+ hours of matches instead of who can perform at their peak for each game.
Great work with the video, you're really starting to become one of my favorite CS content creators. Keep up the awesome work.
I just had a 9-0 comeback not to long ago, not everyone gives up when their down. for people who actually try in a COMPETATIVE game. mr12 is a worse outcome for them.
rambling at the end as usual, and for some reason i'm always here for it.
I don't believe comparing comebacks in this context is appropriate. If teams played using the MR12 format, their strategies would differ. It's not possible to directly equate the Boston major comeback to an MR12 scenario because the dynamics of the game would change entirely with a different starting point.
I'd give MR12 a try. It might work with the gameplay changes from CS2 like being able to sell your weapons, being able to drop utility, new smoke mechanics, "infinite tick rate," and MaYbE no or less cheaters. That and less CS:GO moments with the Source 2 engine.
in retrospect, best change ever. I never realised how daunting MR15 was, especially losing it
While I think that your arguments are compelling, on my alpha waves brain my thoughts were - this is gonna kill Cs tbh.
Ce should try MR12
I think something important to take into consideration that a lot of other games devs don't do is that the pro scene isn't the be all and end all of the game. Imo, changes shouldn't be judged around how it will affect the pro level, it should be first and foremost centred around how it will affect the average player, and then how it impacts the pro level should be considered second.
90% of games i've played have been short matches, so i'm all for it
Really looking forward to this in matchmaking
I remember back in the day (way back) when "they" changed the round-timer from 4 min to 2 min. Me and alot of other people where skeptical about the change back then but nowadays I dont know how we even managed to play those long rounds ..
Gonna be harder to get 30 Bombs 😢
I dont think mr12 is really fun imo, i hate how important pistol rounds become. If they are to implement that outside of the beta then i hope they at the very least remove the draw feature and make overtime a matchmaking standard. At the very least remove the draw so that when the underdog team catches up to the leading team they get the chance to brawl it out till the end. And please dont make the overtimes drawable like valorant.
MR12 will work great if the loss is adjusted. So that there is an occasional eco but removed double eco situations, but not allowing for continously force buying. So possibly reducing initial loss bonus, and then increase the second loss bonus.
great vid and an interesting change to the game. happy to see the devs try new ideas to spice the game. cant wait to see the people's reaction to all the changes to cs2 once it's released
okay yeah I want to see a chargers only showmatch pretty badly now
I’ve loved short matches and only played them since release. MR12 sounds perfect.
I always wanted to see a best of 7. Maybe it can happen with MR12?
7:18 yooo that is banger tekken soundtrack
Played some mr12 ten mans with Wilson’s discord and honestly it didn’t bother me as much as I thought it would. It almost felt like nothing changed, it was just shorter.
I like the change personally. I got to the point in CSGO where I pretty much only played short matches because regular matches felt way too long. At the same time I felt like short matches were a bit too short, so it’s nice for MR12 to just be the standard across the board and you only get overtime if the game is neck and neck which means the game’s good, but if you’re getting obliterated then it’s over a lot quicker than MR15.
I have a question for you, because I dont have the data and dont really want to look it up. How many matches were 12:12 meaning overtime in mr12? Meaning economy "reset" for both teams. One thing I really dislike about mr12 is that how problematic it might be if you loose a few rounds as a ct on a heavy ct map like nuke. For example last finals on gamers8 with vitality vs ence. The half would end with a 6:6 score line instead of ence winning the half 9:6 (as far as I remeber). Sure they still lost but it feels like mr15 gave them more wigle room to possibly adjust to the game more and let to a more interesting game imo
Imo the fact that most games' results wouldn't change isn't a good point. Teams prepare for MR15 and changing it to MR12 would impact their strategies.
There is a logical flaw saying that 0 games would have a different outcome if they were mr12 instead of mr15 based on mr15 data because the teams are not even trying to reach 13 first. They could even decide to eco or save on these rounds because 16 is the magic number for them. If it was mr12 the whole game would be different from the very beginning
Couldn't agree more. If the rules are different, it wouldn't be the exact same game.
Yep, can’t campare like that.
I hate when my game randomly changes to short matches. I fk hate that mode so much
Mr 15 guys are stuck in the past
i honestly cant sit through a full mr15 game, i love the length of an mr8 game, we will see
It’s good to see a channel under 100k subs making his bag
Embrace change my bois. 12 sounds like the happy medium. Let's gooooo
this is absolutely a great change. anyone saying otherwise is eating the ‘member berries
I remember the early days of playing competetive cod4 we did mr12 during the season but mr15 for finals, man finals felt like matches went on forever.
It'll be a good change, will take the community years to accept it though lmao
Normal CSGO+ overtime. That's all
in mr12 the worse team would just win more often. and mistakes would have a grater punish. making player play more safe. witch result in less cool plays
In a bo1 yes, but this would make bo3 and bo5 more viable for more games, which would more than balance it out. Fewer qualifiers would need to be bo1 for time constraints
@@Wozza365 bo3 would just become worse. I guess bo5 would be ok. But that would take so much longer then a mr15 bo3
@@tomhenrik1481 bo3 would be fine for MR12, economy definitely needs some minor tweaks but otherwise I think it would work well. And given the amount of games that some tournaments have to get through, it would be a big help, at the moment some games are bo1 and then some bo3 in the group qualifiers. With this, they might be able to make them all bo3.
The key thing that needs to happen is reduce the weight of the pistol round. My suggestion is giving an extra 500-1000 to every player just on 2nd round, it does give the winning team a better buy, but also gives the losing side a way better force buy or a proper full buy on 3rd. where often (especially CT) are still forced to reduce nades, kits, helmets because of the tough economy.
MR12 was very popular in comptetitive matches from 1vs1 to 3vs3 between 2001 and 2008. MR15 was only played in 5vs5 matches in the last 20 years
Now if your opponent has any kind of lead, it’s gg…
I don’t think the comparison with cologne and getting to 13 rounds is viable, because in mr15 you play 15 round t and ct (if it’s a full game ofc) and in mr12 you play only 12 rounds t and ct. The way some maps are makes them more t or ct sided so it will be very different how you get to 13 rounds in mr12 and how you get to 13 rounds in mr15
thanks for another banger this view made me rethink my opion on the change and i agree that if done right i could be interesting but its not gonna be easy but im here for some wacky times the next bit of time
I played MR12 back in the very early 2000's in the ESL (and even fixed side time before that) and it was horrible for one single reason: If you lost the pistol round you have to full eco once and could buy a deagle with 1-2 clips max in the next round. So you effectively had two full eco rounds no matter what. And it wasn't like you could force buy a 57, tec9, zeus, cz, these weapons didn't exist / were horrible. So if you lost the pistol round in at least 95% of all cases you were down 0:3. And that not even close. You got rekt with your usps and glocks.
So MR12 back then was bad. That's why ESL decided to increase the MR to 15 so the pistol round has less effect. This was a very good decision.
Now. 15-20 years forward - we have loser bonus and a ton of eco and force buy guns which are very good. In pro level CS many eco/force buy rounds are won thus why we see force buy wars where teams force buy against each other back and fourth. So MR15 isn't necessary out of economies perspective.
This goes further.
Pros don't like MR15 because playing BO3's and even BO5's is extremely exhausting and you notice that player are getting tired already on the third map. Also casual player (no matter if silver 1 or faceit 5k elo) often don't have time to play a MR15 games. It's a very long commitmend. But short matches are too short. MR12 is the perfect balance between short and long matches. This is another huge argument pro MR12. Also statistics have shown that nearly 50% of the MM matches were played in short matches, showing that shorter matches are attractive and viable economywise. The reason why two MR modes are bad tho is because it splits the community which means queue times are longer and rank ranges higher.
If economy would still be an issue it could get fixed way easier by changing the losing bonus by very little. MR12 is the way to go and only logical conclusion. I btw. say this for years now. So I'm happy that valve finally changes it aswell. Also arguments like "the boston major wouldn't have happend" are nonsens. In germany we've a saying for stupid arguments like that: "Hätte hätte, Fahrradkette". It makes fun of people saying "oh if that would be the case this would've happend yadayada". It's all just waste of thinking because you never know what would've happend really. We could also argue that way more finals would have boton major happenings if we had MR12. We never know. So no reason to use this even as an argument.
Btw. we have the same fear of changes in the discussion of buy menu aswell. Most who play CSGO are very young and never played Source, 1.6 or older titles. They've no experience with it, grew up with MR15 and the horrible buywheel and think both is the only way CS works. I can tell you. It's not. Humans are habital animals but I can asure you: You don't have to fear changes. They can be better. Much better than what you're used to. The new buy system is great. MR12 is great. Tolerate it first, then you'll accept it, then you'll love it.
Old video was Heaton on Aztec and Markeloff on DD2, back in 1.3 and 1.5 if you lost pistol it would be a full save in second round cus less rounds to make it up. Its going to be great to see teams come up with new MR12 buy meta.
mr15 should stay, it wouldn't be the same without it.
Nice video like always, but i think mr 15 is much better.
Why?
@@yZempXlonger rounds = more fun imvmy opinion
@@jukedbyw1tchagreed. Should switch to mr18 tbh
@@jukedbyw1tch even when you get stuck in a toxic team?
I love Mr12 i think Its a good blend between the two
As someone who plays pretty casually every once in a while I sorta like the shorter rounds since then I don't need to make as much as a big time commitment when playing.
I'd love to have MR12 as an option and probably have it over short matches' MR8 but I feel like there needs to be major changes to the economy before MR15 is removed, every map will likely become extremely T sided, matchmaking is already pretty T sided as it is even on "ct sided maps" as its just easier to make a structured attack then a structured defense with random people with random playstyles and wanting to play whatever positions. CT guns just cost too much for the current economy. I think one of the reasons MR12 works well in Valorant mainly imo cause the weapon costs are equal over each side. I'd be happy to see MR12 in the pro scene but theyd have to switch play off games to bo5s because otherwise the final's streams which have 2 bo3s a day each just go by a bit quick
Enjoyed the video, although I think a few of the points raised aren't perfectly accurate or at least incomplete. It would be better to use more events than just Cologne to show match result differences under MR12, and you also have to bear in mind that maybe decision making would have been different (leading to different results) if MR12 was used. So I'd be interested to see a video showing points on both sides rather than just points defending MR12, especially if you yourself aren't sold on the idea. That fast paced concept was really interesting though I'm glad you put that in the video.
We played MR12 back in the of 1.5/1.6 CAL days
Something I don't see mention, with MR12 bo5 can actually be a thing, because now games arent as long for both players and viewers. However if bo5 are to be common, teams now have to learn all maps as they can't have a permaban in bo5, that would be another debate of its own.
I think that’s part of the switch. Make teams play and practice all maps.
my issue is that it reduces the chess like nature of professional cs, this is similar to reducing the time in football from 90 minutes down to 60.
if we do mr12 and get rid of ecos it stops an important part of the chess game of csgo, at that point economy doesnt matter as much which is one of the most important parts that define csgo
Gonna be interesting to se how mr12 gonna work! Great video mate :D
The less time in the menu's the better, that's all that sways me.
take out eco rounds and its perfect
Valve changes something, the communities try to force their minds in favor of the decision as they can't do anything because valve won't listen
Good change for me, one major reason I never really got so heavily into CS but did with valorant instead, is that on valorant I can queue 2 games in a row while in CS I often can just do 1/1 and a half which I'll obviously not queue the second game if I don't have enough time to finish it...
Jeeey! The cool background sound is back😄😄
The fact that valve are still trying new things and experimental features just means cs ain't going anywhere anytime soon.
I don’t play faceit because of MR15. MR8 is much more palatable to me and much less of a time commitment, even if I have to play match making
I play a lot of Valorant and CS and I definitely prefer mr12 over mr15. That being said I love mr8 for casual 5v5 because it feels a lot less important and more fun to mess around on. 😊
Mr12 has been tried and replaced 20 years ago like you said.
I think this change is more to appeal to valorant players/people with low attention spans that call CS matches “long and boring”. I don’t think the core of what makes this game so great (comeback potential in high stakes tournaments) needs to be thrown away just for the sake of appealing to a broader audience and bringing more players to the game. Not only that but the necessary economic changes that will have to be made will throw the community into a rage for months on end once this game releases.
Then again I’m a 32 year old dad that only plays a few times a week and I like the longer games for that reason.
@louiec.9292 what you can't read?