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Thanks for this! I started playing Magic in October 2018 and apparently just missed this article the first time around. PVDDR is one of my favorite pros - as usual he's tremendously insightful here. Thanks for spending time on this.
PVDDR is one of my favorite pros too! I’m so glad you enjoyed the video because I had a ton of fun making it! I love being able to share my favorite strategy articles with players who have never seen them!
as an economics student, this is the exact aspect of MtG that tickles my brain the most. love having a hobby that also serves as a context to practice game theory! looking forward to your video on Nash equilibria 😉 #PVsrule
As an economist myself I also find these sorts of things delightful! You have said this very well and I agree with it all! Thanks for the excellent comment and I’m so glad you liked the video!
It’s one of my favorite articles and I’m so glad I was able to show it to you for the first time! It makes me very happy to receive this sort of feedback!
to me this becomes a few takeaways rule 1: 1) dont bet on your opponent being dumb/ making a blunder 2) assume that any move that an opponent makes, serves themselves best 3) by giving your opponents a choice, you hand them the opportunity to do what is best for themselves 4) you don't always know what your opponent needs to win rule 2: because magic is a 2 player game, assume the reverse is also true and your opponent knows this. therefore: forcing a choice, even if it is not ideal for you, prevents the opponent from picking what is best for them; picking what your opponent is avoiding is also best for you.
Hello, Hello. Hello! Always a pleasure to see one of your videos pop up. Having a particularly bad day today (even worse than flooding out to you in a community draft!). So a video that I had to think about has been a welcome distraction thank you. It's a very interesting principle, but my main concern with it is a slightly philosophical and arguably contentious one. This relies heavily on you giving the benefit of the doubt that your opponent is very good, great or better. At a high level, sure this probably applies 99% of the time. But at the average player level I'm not convinced that enough people would be aware of rule 1 to validate rule 1. I'd argue that 'most of us' (yourself, your viewers and anyone intelligent enough to find this article and digest it) are notably better than your average lower rank opponent. For the rule 1 scenario, certainly in constructed, I think that there are enough players that would be so precious about not losing their 2/2 as a key part of their deck strategy that it would almost invalidate rule 1, and there is a much more convincing argument to attack and chip the 1 damage in. Obviously if you don't have shock and they block and you lose the 1/2 that's a very bad outcome and arguably that alone is enough to say in this scenario you should never attack. But the principle of rule 1 definitely becomes blurrier here I think. To take a poker analogy, it's often far harder to bluff an inexperienced player than a fairly experienced player as the inexperienced player is less aware of higher principled strategies and 'what a player should be doing' in a certain scenarios. But perhaps I'm just a bit pessimistic at the moment and I should give more people the benefit of the doubt.
This idea does get mentioned in the article (when he says a newer player might not know how their Selfless Spirit works and you can adjust your plays accordingly) but one thing I like to recommend is that you should play as if your opponent is skilled. This helps you establish good habits that will serve you well as you improve and face better competition. If your opponent is a new player you are probably in good shape anyway. To use your poker analogy, it is harder to bluff an inexperienced player, but it is also much easier to win against them overall, so it would be unwise for a poker pro to spend time building up skills that are only designed to beat new players. If we imagine that most drafters play at FNM and want to win that event, it makes sense to learn and implement skills that will help them do well against good opponents in the finals. You can always adapt for your exact circumstances and opponent, but I think the default should be to make the correct play and not get too fancy by trying to take advantage of an opponent. One final thing I want to note is that inexperienced players are often less predictable in MTG, so while you say they might worry about losing their 2/2, there is also a good chance they would not even think about what you might have and just block because a 2/2 eats a 1/2 in combat and they know that is a good thing. When a player is new they are often not fully aware of all the possibilities in a situation which means bluffing them can be unpredictable (just like in poker).
@@NicolaiBolas 100% agree with what you've said above, and some excellent points made in addition to those in the article. In particular the point that an inexperienced player may be less aware of as many of the outcomes. And of course, as you say, the goal is always to improve ourselves in a way that makes us more likely to beat the tougher opponents that we will hopefully eventually be facing. Appreciate the content and engagement as always Nicolai. Catch you in the next one :)
When playing against good players don't give them the choice. When playing against bad players do give them the choice cause it will give them the chance to mess up. But, what if you don't know if your opponent is good or bad?
My advice is to play as if all of your opponents are good. It helps you build the best habits possible for when you do play against a strong player, and against a weaker player you are going to have an advantage anyway. You can certainly adapt your play based on your specific opponent, but even against weak players I don’t like to give them choices because there is still the risk that I don’t have all the information and giving them a choice lets them do something that is worse for me. Basically, don’t try to get fancy by taking advantage of players that you perceive to be weak, and instead make the best play possible whenever you can! Hopefully that clarifies things a bit!
The counterspell situation actually came up for me recently and looking back on it I definitely made the wrong decision letting them vendilion clique my counterspell rather than countering the clique. I was playing vintage cube with some friends, and on my opponent's turn 3 they played clique while I had 2 untapped blue. I thought about countering it with counterspell but let them look at my hand thinking well if they take counterspell then I get a redraw and its fine. In hindsight, I absolutely should have countered the clique cause they would be left without a creature on board. I just wouldn't get one card deeper into my deck off the redraw from clique, but the board would have been clear going into my turn 3. My opponent took the counterspell with the clique and I drew elite spellbinder for the redraw. The next turn I cast elite spellbinder and a turn later in the game traded spellbinder for clique in combat. The rest of the game was not very interesting as I flooded out really badly and the game ended, but had I countered the clique I would have still cast spellbinder the next turn and then I would have had a creature on the battlefield and my opponent would not, which maybe down the line could have given me an extra turn to find my wheel combo and change the game entirely. #PVsRule
Remember to LIKE and SUBSCRIBE to support the channel, COMMENT with your questions, and SHARE with friends!
Would you like to see more breakdown videos like this in the future?
releatively new to magic, love seeing these old, but timeless strategy articles. keep it up! feel like im getting a lot better knowing them
@@qwerty-ib7ww I really enjoy making this type of video so I’m so glad to hear you are enjoying them!
Thanks for this! I started playing Magic in October 2018 and apparently just missed this article the first time around. PVDDR is one of my favorite pros - as usual he's tremendously insightful here. Thanks for spending time on this.
PVDDR is one of my favorite pros too! I’m so glad you enjoyed the video because I had a ton of fun making it! I love being able to share my favorite strategy articles with players who have never seen them!
as an economics student, this is the exact aspect of MtG that tickles my brain the most. love having a hobby that also serves as a context to practice game theory! looking forward to your video on Nash equilibria 😉 #PVsrule
As an economist myself I also find these sorts of things delightful! You have said this very well and I agree with it all! Thanks for the excellent comment and I’m so glad you liked the video!
wow... didn't hear about that article yet... it bends my mind, but I hope I'll get my head around it 😉 thanks for sharing and talking it through 👍
It’s one of my favorite articles and I’m so glad I was able to show it to you for the first time! It makes me very happy to receive this sort of feedback!
Love these type of videos Nicolai.
I love making them, so it’s great to hear you enjoy them too!
I think I felt my brain actively growing in size throughout the article lol. Thanks for explaining #PVsrule, this is super useful information
I’m so glad I was able to help and that you enjoyed my video!
Thanks for reminding me of #PVsRule, I remember reading the article back in the day but this was a good refresher!
I’m glad you liked it!
Game theory articles are my favorite. Thank you
#PV's rule!
I’m glad you liked it!
to me this becomes a few takeaways
rule 1:
1) dont bet on your opponent being dumb/ making a blunder
2) assume that any move that an opponent makes, serves themselves best
3) by giving your opponents a choice, you hand them the opportunity to do what is best for themselves
4) you don't always know what your opponent needs to win
rule 2: because magic is a 2 player game, assume the reverse is also true and your opponent knows this.
therefore: forcing a choice, even if it is not ideal for you, prevents the opponent from picking what is best for them; picking what your opponent is avoiding is also best for you.
Hello, Hello. Hello! Always a pleasure to see one of your videos pop up. Having a particularly bad day today (even worse than flooding out to you in a community draft!). So a video that I had to think about has been a welcome distraction thank you. It's a very interesting principle, but my main concern with it is a slightly philosophical and arguably contentious one. This relies heavily on you giving the benefit of the doubt that your opponent is very good, great or better. At a high level, sure this probably applies 99% of the time. But at the average player level I'm not convinced that enough people would be aware of rule 1 to validate rule 1. I'd argue that 'most of us' (yourself, your viewers and anyone intelligent enough to find this article and digest it) are notably better than your average lower rank opponent. For the rule 1 scenario, certainly in constructed, I think that there are enough players that would be so precious about not losing their 2/2 as a key part of their deck strategy that it would almost invalidate rule 1, and there is a much more convincing argument to attack and chip the 1 damage in. Obviously if you don't have shock and they block and you lose the 1/2 that's a very bad outcome and arguably that alone is enough to say in this scenario you should never attack. But the principle of rule 1 definitely becomes blurrier here I think. To take a poker analogy, it's often far harder to bluff an inexperienced player than a fairly experienced player as the inexperienced player is less aware of higher principled strategies and 'what a player should be doing' in a certain scenarios. But perhaps I'm just a bit pessimistic at the moment and I should give more people the benefit of the doubt.
This idea does get mentioned in the article (when he says a newer player might not know how their Selfless Spirit works and you can adjust your plays accordingly) but one thing I like to recommend is that you should play as if your opponent is skilled. This helps you establish good habits that will serve you well as you improve and face better competition. If your opponent is a new player you are probably in good shape anyway. To use your poker analogy, it is harder to bluff an inexperienced player, but it is also much easier to win against them overall, so it would be unwise for a poker pro to spend time building up skills that are only designed to beat new players. If we imagine that most drafters play at FNM and want to win that event, it makes sense to learn and implement skills that will help them do well against good opponents in the finals. You can always adapt for your exact circumstances and opponent, but I think the default should be to make the correct play and not get too fancy by trying to take advantage of an opponent. One final thing I want to note is that inexperienced players are often less predictable in MTG, so while you say they might worry about losing their 2/2, there is also a good chance they would not even think about what you might have and just block because a 2/2 eats a 1/2 in combat and they know that is a good thing. When a player is new they are often not fully aware of all the possibilities in a situation which means bluffing them can be unpredictable (just like in poker).
@@NicolaiBolas 100% agree with what you've said above, and some excellent points made in addition to those in the article. In particular the point that an inexperienced player may be less aware of as many of the outcomes. And of course, as you say, the goal is always to improve ourselves in a way that makes us more likely to beat the tougher opponents that we will hopefully eventually be facing. Appreciate the content and engagement as always Nicolai. Catch you in the next one :)
When playing against good players don't give them the choice. When playing against bad players do give them the choice cause it will give them the chance to mess up. But, what if you don't know if your opponent is good or bad?
My advice is to play as if all of your opponents are good. It helps you build the best habits possible for when you do play against a strong player, and against a weaker player you are going to have an advantage anyway. You can certainly adapt your play based on your specific opponent, but even against weak players I don’t like to give them choices because there is still the risk that I don’t have all the information and giving them a choice lets them do something that is worse for me. Basically, don’t try to get fancy by taking advantage of players that you perceive to be weak, and instead make the best play possible whenever you can! Hopefully that clarifies things a bit!
The counterspell situation actually came up for me recently and looking back on it I definitely made the wrong decision letting them vendilion clique my counterspell rather than countering the clique. I was playing vintage cube with some friends, and on my opponent's turn 3 they played clique while I had 2 untapped blue. I thought about countering it with counterspell but let them look at my hand thinking well if they take counterspell then I get a redraw and its fine.
In hindsight, I absolutely should have countered the clique cause they would be left without a creature on board. I just wouldn't get one card deeper into my deck off the redraw from clique, but the board would have been clear going into my turn 3. My opponent took the counterspell with the clique and I drew elite spellbinder for the redraw. The next turn I cast elite spellbinder and a turn later in the game traded spellbinder for clique in combat. The rest of the game was not very interesting as I flooded out really badly and the game ended, but had I countered the clique I would have still cast spellbinder the next turn and then I would have had a creature on the battlefield and my opponent would not, which maybe down the line could have given me an extra turn to find my wheel combo and change the game entirely. #PVsRule
#PVsRule great video, i really enjoyed your discussion
Thanks!
#PVsrule
Game Theory, the MTG edition.
Pretty much!
#PVsRule
I’m glad you enjoyed the video!
#PV'sRule
I’m glad you liked it!
still confusing.... ;)
Hopefully it sinks in eventually. The topic definitely requires some thought.
#PVsRule
I’m glad you liked it!