1:28 Actually, that's not exactly true, as the Timelords did refer to the 1st Doctor as the earliest Doctor in the Three Doctors (PRESIDENT: "I see. Well, we'll soon settle that. Show me the earliest Doctor."). Very small thing, but technically the Brain of Morbius did contradict the previous assertion that there weren't any Doctors prior to the first.
Perhaps, it can now be determined after 'The Timeless Children' that the Time Lords were hiding these incarnations from The Doctor and having hid all records deep within the Matrix, Hartnell was the 1st recorded Doctor, until the Master unearthed the truth...
@@SuperEpicNiceGuy my point was more that the Morbius Doctors were a retcon of the Three Doctors, albeit in a very minor way. I mean, some would argue that the Morbius Doctors were more in line with what was originally intended for Power of the Daleks, which was originally scripted to imply the Doctor had regenerated (at that time, rejuvenated) before. Though none of that made it into the story, and therefore the Three Doctors is seemingly the first televised indication on the subject of pre-1st Doctor lives. I just wanted to talk about the history of the pre-1 lives idea, not really how to fit what was said in the Three Doctors in with what the Brain of Morbius retconned in later, as that's easy to do.
I like to think that the Morbius incarnations are the Doctor. It increases the lore of our beloved Time Lord and really makes him and history more mysterious. Believe what you think, but these faces are the Doctor to me!
I prefer the theory that they are The Other incarnations(who is connected to the Doctor but isn't the doctor) because having it that way makes them technically a different person and keeps William Hartnell as the first doctor Plus The way the Timeless child/ the fugitive doctor doesn't make sense because why where they called the doctor before and have a police box TARDIS
@StealthyGamerGirl The Fugitive Doctor literally called herself The Doctor, and they hinted she before 1st( even though it doesn't make sense because she got a police box TARDIS ) Also she is nothing like tne war Doctor because he had a point and reason to be added to the lore, what reason is there to have the Fugitive Doctor?
My fantheory is that the pre-Hartnell doctors’ Tardis and the Hartnell-and-later Tardis are one and the same. This Tardis was old even when 1 stole her, so presumably had previous occupants. Moreover, it was important that the Doctor steal this particular one-important enough for the Great Intelligence to try to prevent it, and for Clara to intervene to stop this. Having the 1st Doctor steal his own former self’s Tardis is entirely consistent with this. Also, the Chameleon Circuit works fine, and always has. She just prefers the look of a police box, and acquired this quirk pre Hartnell. The time lord Tardis mechanics tried to “fix” this, but as soon as the Tardis was back in a time and place where a police box disguise was appropriate, she took that form again, and kept it. As for the existence of pre Hartnell doctors in the first place, I’m actually fine with it. When the possibility was floated prior to series 12, I decided to draw my own personal line, which was that the kid in Listen, hiding in the barn, would grow up to look like William Hartnell, have a granddaughter who traveled with him for a time under the name “Susan”, etc. Moreover, the kid also had a best friend who would grow up to be the Master. Nothing I saw in series 12 crossed this line (indeed, the Master confirmed that at least the second part really happened) so I am fine with it. Other people may have drawn their lines in different places of course.
Personally the plot twist of the Doctor not actually being from Gallifrey and a being from another universe left abandoned and found and taken back to Gallifrey pre Time Lord society creation was a great idea. It brought the mystery back for me and once again we really could ask the question "Dr Who"? I for one take the Timeless Child and the pre hartnell incarnations as canon. Others have their own reasons for disregarding this new plot twist, but for me it brought bacl some much needed mystery which had fpr years sadly been lost because so much was known about the Doctor pre "The Timeless Child". Thats the only story of Whittakets erratic era I enjoyed though.
I'm not surprised if there were incarnations before hartnell because I don't think the doctor always called themselves the doctor I assume he had used his original name before calling himself doctor, honestly if they said the doctor called himself Bob I wouldn't be surprised
Except for the regenerations/incarnations are literally "lives" in the video game sense (in that once they are used up, they are DEAD) for a Time Lord, the Doctor's 12 regenerations are not just the "13 times he's called himself the Doctor". Now you can argue the Doctor's been through more than one set of regenerations before, but the way the 11th Doctor was facing his supposedly "final" one in the show, it felt like he had never tried to get another cycle of regenerations before and was just figuring it out.
Whether we like it or not (and I don’t really like it) The Timeless Children montage makes it very clear that they are incarnations of the Doctor - it’s unreasonable to deny it. I hope they get to appear in comics or something - did this lot work for ‘The Division’? I suppose they must have
It always amazes me that people actually consider this as important, when it was clearly not intended to be. As the drawings of possible Doctors in The War Games and the multiple physical changes to Romana in Destiny of the Daleks proves, the makers of Doctor Who, at those particular times in the shows history, were only interested in creating mystery or comedy, for that one particular moment in an episode.
The raw truth of the matter is that when clear conflicts in lore come about, especially when introduced by a new showrunner, the fans have some say in what eventually gets widely accepted. The original 12-regeneration limit was important to the Doctor's development, and important to the emotional impact of the 50th anniversary. It's important also to a lot of fans that we can identify Hartnell as the incarnation the Doctor was born and initially grew up as - it helps with relatability to the Doctor. The only reason Brain of Morbius was chosen by Chibnall was, let's be honest, he wanted to show version of the Doctor earlier than Hartnell that weren't white or male.
You say it doesn’t matter but it does In the deadly Assassin (a year later) we are introduced to the 12 regeneration cycle Why didn’t Dr Tom & Sarah Jane mention it? Or why did Matt Smiths Dr need to have his regeneration rebooted like the Master. 2 questions “who is the first Doctor & where is the Doctor from?”
Given Philip Hinchcliffe himself said that his intention was to imply that these were earlier versions. I'll go with that. I remember seeing that episode as a kid and it never occurred to me that they were anyone but the Doctor. So when the Timeless Children story came along it was a big cheer from me because they'd finally adressed this grand canyon size hole! People go on about law...but if you're going to say it betrays the law, then what about the regeneration process or sonic screwdriver. Two things that were not there at the start. Or even the Time Lords themselves. Are the part of the law? Because they didn't appear until the end of the 2nd Doctors time.
Yes but then a year later the concept of a 12 Regeneration cycle was introduced wasn’t it? That’s why Matt Smiths Doctor needed his Regeneration cycle rebooted. Also if the 13th dr didn’t know about the “previous regenerations” how did the 4th Doctor remember them?
I have one question why did Robert homes go out of his way to retcon them out. For example it was Robert homes to wrote the Deadly Assassin in which the limiter of number of regenerations was introduced. And would then later on go on to write the character the Vale Yard who in turn was ment to be the stout essence of the doctor's 12th and final incarnations. For myself I've always thought of it as being one of those ideas they had and then realised the problems after and so decided to remove it.
IMO a lot of people say that the timeless children solved the unexplained thing .. but occums razor this for a second and you'll realise timeless children doesn't even solve it
It seems to me that if the original intention was that they were pre-Hartnell incarnations, then that's what they were, frankly. Indeed, Morbius himself says "how far back, Doctor?" or something along those lines. He's certainly surprised by the Doctor's longevity in that moment. If they are indeed past Doctors or whatever you want to call them, it does mean that Christopher Barry is Hartnell's immediate predecessor. As for Jo Martin, until proved otherwise - which it hasn't been - I still think she's between Troughton and Pertwee. So, it's the Timeless Child to the Morbius Doctors; memory wipe and reversion to childhood; Listen onwards, until he ages into the First Doctor, where he flees Gallifrey with Susan; Hartnell becomes Troughton; some point after The Two Doctors Troughton becomes Jo Martin who is then, after the events of Fugitive of the Judoon, regenerated into Pertwee, all memory of his prior incarnation wiped from his mind. I'm quite prepared to be proved wrong on this but I don't think I will be. Time will tell, I suppose.
I think the Season 6B theory has been more than proven wrong by the whole context of the current story. The whole Division stuff is tied to the Doctor's pre-1 lives, it doesn't make any sense for it to be broken up and for Jo Martin's Doctor to be between 2 and 3. Like, why would the Division wipe their memory and then randomly grab 2? It's convoluted and doesn't work with the story they're telling. Not to mention that Season 6B, going by just the TV show, doesn't exist. In terms of the show, it's a fan theory made from continuity errors that resulted from the Five and Two Doctors. To establish the Fugitive Doctor as a Season 6B incarnation would require not only recapping the War Games and the show's whole format back then, but also establishing that it even exists, and why the Division forced them to work for them again, and then why they mindwiped only Jo Martin's Doctor from their mind and didn't reset then to a child again and various other things. You'd also need to explain why the Fugitive Doctor doesn't recognise the Sonic Screwdriver. And you'd also be breaking authorial intent. Like, the only real thing that indicates a post-1 placement for them is their TARDIS being a Police Box, but then that was done because otherwise their reveal wouldn't have been instantly understandable and therefore wouldn't have had the same impact. Visual language! Like, with how convoluted and trite all this Season 6B stuff is, surely it's far easier to just come up with a headcanon for why the obviously pre-1st Doctor Fugitive Doctor has a Police Box TARDIS? My personal favourite is that it disguised as a Police Box due to the future TARDIS having made the Police Box form a common shape throughout Earth's history, but that's just me.
All this effort to try to justify one man's idiotic attempt at sensationalism / destruction of the franchise. My own theory is that plummeting ratings and panic at the BBC led to Chibnall's dismissal, spun as his resignation. The Timeless Child is his revenge, the final nail in the coffin, or so he hoped. It's just fiction, so I shall ignore it, as i have ignored other inconsistencies, like the Doctor's age
There has been no destruction of the franchise. Also "plummeting ratings" for one this is untrue and two the BBC have said they are happy with how the show is performing. And we also know Chibnall chose to leave, and had planned to do only 3 series from the start so he wasn't fired and there is nothing to suggest he was.
1:28 Actually, that's not exactly true, as the Timelords did refer to the 1st Doctor as the earliest Doctor in the Three Doctors (PRESIDENT: "I see. Well, we'll soon settle that. Show me the earliest Doctor."). Very small thing, but technically the Brain of Morbius did contradict the previous assertion that there weren't any Doctors prior to the first.
Perhaps, it can now be determined after 'The Timeless Children' that the Time Lords were hiding these incarnations from The Doctor and having hid all records deep within the Matrix, Hartnell was the 1st recorded Doctor, until the Master unearthed the truth...
@@SuperEpicNiceGuy my point was more that the Morbius Doctors were a retcon of the Three Doctors, albeit in a very minor way.
I mean, some would argue that the Morbius Doctors were more in line with what was originally intended for Power of the Daleks, which was originally scripted to imply the Doctor had regenerated (at that time, rejuvenated) before. Though none of that made it into the story, and therefore the Three Doctors is seemingly the first televised indication on the subject of pre-1st Doctor lives.
I just wanted to talk about the history of the pre-1 lives idea, not really how to fit what was said in the Three Doctors in with what the Brain of Morbius retconned in later, as that's easy to do.
True though we now know the reason for this: they were lying. Or at least weren't aware of what had really happened.
Tomato, tomahto. Earliest in the latest cycle or earliest from now?
Besides, nothing is exact in the Whoniverse.
It's really nice to have a Doctor Who focused channel that isn't relentlessly negative about the Chibnall era.
Would also be really nice to be rid of the chibnall era 🤔
The Morbius Doctor is "Milo" from from the hit movie "Morbius"
Hartnell’s the first true known incarnation of The Doctor, end of story, don’t worry about it.
I love the idea of multiple incarnations before Hartnell. It brings back mystery to the Doctor and makes them even more ancient.
I like to think that the Morbius incarnations are the Doctor. It increases the lore of our beloved Time Lord and really makes him and history more mysterious. Believe what you think, but these faces are the Doctor to me!
I prefer the theory that they are The Other incarnations(who is connected to the Doctor but isn't the doctor) because having it that way makes them technically a different person and keeps William Hartnell as the first doctor
Plus The way the Timeless child/ the fugitive doctor doesn't make sense because why where they called the doctor before and have a police box TARDIS
The Timeless Child wasn't called the Doctor. And it's very obvious that the fugitive Doctor is, like the War Doctor, a version hidden from the Doctor.
@StealthyGamerGirl The Fugitive Doctor literally called herself The Doctor, and they hinted she before 1st( even though it doesn't make sense because she got a police box TARDIS )
Also she is nothing like tne war Doctor because he had a point and reason to be added to the lore, what reason is there to have the Fugitive Doctor?
My fantheory is that the pre-Hartnell doctors’ Tardis and the Hartnell-and-later Tardis are one and the same. This Tardis was old even when 1 stole her, so presumably had previous occupants. Moreover, it was important that the Doctor steal this particular one-important enough for the Great Intelligence to try to prevent it, and for Clara to intervene to stop this. Having the 1st Doctor steal his own former self’s Tardis is entirely consistent with this. Also, the Chameleon Circuit works fine, and always has. She just prefers the look of a police box, and acquired this quirk pre Hartnell. The time lord Tardis mechanics tried to “fix” this, but as soon as the Tardis was back in a time and place where a police box disguise was appropriate, she took that form again, and kept it.
As for the existence of pre Hartnell doctors in the first place, I’m actually fine with it. When the possibility was floated prior to series 12, I decided to draw my own personal line, which was that the kid in Listen, hiding in the barn, would grow up to look like William Hartnell, have a granddaughter who traveled with him for a time under the name “Susan”, etc. Moreover, the kid also had a best friend who would grow up to be the Master. Nothing I saw in series 12 crossed this line (indeed, the Master confirmed that at least the second part really happened) so I am fine with it. Other people may have drawn their lines in different places of course.
Personally the plot twist of the Doctor not actually being from Gallifrey and a being from another universe left abandoned and found and taken back to Gallifrey pre Time Lord society creation was a great idea. It brought the mystery back for me and once again we really could ask the question "Dr Who"? I for one take the Timeless Child and the pre hartnell incarnations as canon. Others have their own reasons for disregarding this new plot twist, but for me it brought bacl some much needed mystery which had fpr years sadly been lost because so much was known about the Doctor pre "The Timeless Child".
Thats the only story of Whittakets erratic era I enjoyed though.
I'm not surprised if there were incarnations before hartnell because I don't think the doctor always called themselves the doctor I assume he had used his original name before calling himself doctor, honestly if they said the doctor called himself Bob I wouldn't be surprised
Except for the regenerations/incarnations are literally "lives" in the video game sense (in that once they are used up, they are DEAD) for a Time Lord, the Doctor's 12 regenerations are not just the "13 times he's called himself the Doctor". Now you can argue the Doctor's been through more than one set of regenerations before, but the way the 11th Doctor was facing his supposedly "final" one in the show, it felt like he had never tried to get another cycle of regenerations before and was just figuring it out.
Before TC I wouldve said they were Morbius without hesitation but I guess that Matrix scene confirmed it!
Whether we like it or not (and I don’t really like it) The Timeless Children montage makes it very clear that they are incarnations of the Doctor - it’s unreasonable to deny it.
I hope they get to appear in comics or something - did this lot work for ‘The Division’? I suppose they must have
This is really good information
I can't wait for the "Timeless Doctors" I heard about it a while back and I hope they finish it cuz it sounds awesome
It always amazes me that people actually consider this as important, when it was clearly not intended to be. As the drawings of possible Doctors in The War Games and the multiple physical changes to Romana in Destiny of the Daleks proves, the makers of Doctor Who, at those particular times in the shows history, were only interested in creating mystery or comedy, for that one particular moment in an episode.
Damn. Peter Hinchcliffe was hot.
This is truly a Morbin time moment
Finally a good explanation thanks George 😊
The real world explanation of course is that the 12 regeneration limit hadn't been made into Doctor Who canon yet.
The raw truth of the matter is that when clear conflicts in lore come about, especially when introduced by a new showrunner, the fans have some say in what eventually gets widely accepted. The original 12-regeneration limit was important to the Doctor's development, and important to the emotional impact of the 50th anniversary. It's important also to a lot of fans that we can identify Hartnell as the incarnation the Doctor was born and initially grew up as - it helps with relatability to the Doctor. The only reason Brain of Morbius was chosen by Chibnall was, let's be honest, he wanted to show version of the Doctor earlier than Hartnell that weren't white or male.
The Robert Holmes one, my favourite, is definitely more Georgian in dress than Elizabethan.
5:40 so where/when was it ‘confirmed’ Hartnell was the grown up version of the child Doctor on Gallifrey? I.e he hadn’t yet regenerated
imo it’s a bit of a dumb idea and I think 100% those time lord kids would have regenerated before- all that climbing up trees
The doctor can regenerate into a baby right? Lmao
You say it doesn’t matter but it does
In the deadly Assassin (a year later) we are introduced to the 12 regeneration cycle
Why didn’t Dr Tom & Sarah Jane mention it? Or why did Matt Smiths Dr need to have his regeneration rebooted like the Master.
2 questions “who is the first Doctor & where is the Doctor from?”
Given Philip Hinchcliffe himself said that his intention was to imply that these were earlier versions. I'll go with that. I remember seeing that episode as a kid and it never occurred to me that they were anyone but the Doctor.
So when the Timeless Children story came along it was a big cheer from me because they'd finally adressed this grand canyon size hole!
People go on about law...but if you're going to say it betrays the law, then what about the regeneration process or sonic screwdriver. Two things that were not there at the start. Or even the Time Lords themselves. Are the part of the law? Because they didn't appear until the end of the 2nd Doctors time.
Yes but then a year later the concept of a 12 Regeneration cycle was introduced wasn’t it? That’s why Matt Smiths Doctor needed his Regeneration cycle rebooted. Also if the 13th dr didn’t know about the “previous regenerations” how did the 4th Doctor remember them?
Great video! those colourised photos are brilliant!
I have one question why did Robert homes go out of his way to retcon them out. For example it was Robert homes to wrote the Deadly Assassin in which the limiter of number of regenerations was introduced. And would then later on go on to write the character the Vale Yard who in turn was ment to be the stout essence of the doctor's 12th and final incarnations. For myself I've always thought of it as being one of those ideas they had and then realised the problems after and so decided to remove it.
They better resolve that pre-Hartnell business in the Centenary Special!
They are definitely not Venom
Who are the Morbius Doctors?
Adam Savage
And Jamie Hyneman
IMO a lot of people say that the timeless children solved the unexplained thing .. but occums razor this for a second and you'll realise timeless children doesn't even solve it
@Gary Smith yea exactly
The Morbius Doctors could be fellow graduates of The Doctor from the academy on Galifrey
It seems to me that if the original intention was that they were pre-Hartnell incarnations, then that's what they were, frankly. Indeed, Morbius himself says "how far back, Doctor?" or something along those lines. He's certainly surprised by the Doctor's longevity in that moment. If they are indeed past Doctors or whatever you want to call them, it does mean that Christopher Barry is Hartnell's immediate predecessor.
As for Jo Martin, until proved otherwise - which it hasn't been - I still think she's between Troughton and Pertwee. So, it's the Timeless Child to the Morbius Doctors; memory wipe and reversion to childhood; Listen onwards, until he ages into the First Doctor, where he flees Gallifrey with Susan; Hartnell becomes Troughton; some point after The Two Doctors Troughton becomes Jo Martin who is then, after the events of Fugitive of the Judoon, regenerated into Pertwee, all memory of his prior incarnation wiped from his mind. I'm quite prepared to be proved wrong on this but I don't think I will be. Time will tell, I suppose.
I think the Season 6B theory has been more than proven wrong by the whole context of the current story. The whole Division stuff is tied to the Doctor's pre-1 lives, it doesn't make any sense for it to be broken up and for Jo Martin's Doctor to be between 2 and 3. Like, why would the Division wipe their memory and then randomly grab 2? It's convoluted and doesn't work with the story they're telling.
Not to mention that Season 6B, going by just the TV show, doesn't exist. In terms of the show, it's a fan theory made from continuity errors that resulted from the Five and Two Doctors.
To establish the Fugitive Doctor as a Season 6B incarnation would require not only recapping the War Games and the show's whole format back then, but also establishing that it even exists, and why the Division forced them to work for them again, and then why they mindwiped only Jo Martin's Doctor from their mind and didn't reset then to a child again and various other things. You'd also need to explain why the Fugitive Doctor doesn't recognise the Sonic Screwdriver. And you'd also be breaking authorial intent.
Like, the only real thing that indicates a post-1 placement for them is their TARDIS being a Police Box, but then that was done because otherwise their reveal wouldn't have been instantly understandable and therefore wouldn't have had the same impact. Visual language!
Like, with how convoluted and trite all this Season 6B stuff is, surely it's far easier to just come up with a headcanon for why the obviously pre-1st Doctor Fugitive Doctor has a Police Box TARDIS? My personal favourite is that it disguised as a Police Box due to the future TARDIS having made the Police Box form a common shape throughout Earth's history, but that's just me.
Didn’t think of it that way
I will forever love Chibnall for "canonising" the Morbius Doctors. Brilliant imo!
Could the morbius doctor's hear me out now...be future doctor's? Wouldn't be outsids the realm of possibility right?
All this effort to try to justify one man's idiotic attempt at sensationalism / destruction of the franchise.
My own theory is that plummeting ratings and panic at the BBC led to Chibnall's dismissal, spun as his resignation. The Timeless Child is his revenge, the final nail in the coffin, or so he hoped.
It's just fiction, so I shall ignore it, as i have ignored other inconsistencies, like the Doctor's age
There has been no destruction of the franchise.
Also "plummeting ratings" for one this is untrue and two the BBC have said they are happy with how the show is performing. And we also know Chibnall chose to leave, and had planned to do only 3 series from the start so he wasn't fired and there is nothing to suggest he was.