I never comment on UA-cam, but I could help myself. This video couldn't be more spot on! I started wrestling when I was 5, wrestled all through college and spent several years fighting and training in professional MMA with the likes of Jon Jones and and Fabricio Werdum. I just started HEMA long sword about six months ago and there is no comparison between the grappling. It'sa night and day even difference even with the guys who are considered, "good grapplers", though that's not to say they don't smoke me with the blade hahaha.
Awesome. Just got into HEMA with a background in boxing and MMA, and I subbed this channel 2 minutes into this video. Looking forward the watching the rest of your content!
The paradox is...if you don't train grappling you are nearly 100% sure to end up on the ground against a grappler. If you are wrestler or Judo black belt...probably not. Train grappling to avoid going to the floor or to get up, most grapplers are training against players who also want to grapple. They don't have a ton of experience preventing people standing back up. MMA shows this is a good strategy, it's difficult to get and keep someone with marginal experience in grappling down and keep him there.
Conversely, if a grappler came up against a HEMA practitioner and they both had swords, the guy who was trained to use a sword would likely win similarly comfortably. People are more likely to win in a scenario that favours their particular skill set.
Agreed. You may be able to use dirty tricks and weapons to your advantage in a fight, and you may not want to willingly go to the ground, but you need some grappling skills to use those weapons/strikes/foul tactics, etc., and to prevent yourself from being taken to the ground. Combative wrestling is the basis for all other fighting, especially with close range weapons and in self defense situations, drones and sniper rifles notwithstanding.
The argument of "i can poke them in the eyes or bite or punch them in the nuts" is so entertaining,what,you think they cant/wont do the same in a street fight,the big difference is they can do it from a far superior position and really ruin your day..they dont really need to be that experienced to get the upper hand against somebody who hasnt done so much as an hour on the mats..
The problem with these kinds of blows is that if you do em to someone, you more or less give permission in a sense for the guy to do it back to you, and if you've eye poked a superior grappler who now has top position on you, that's not going to be a fun day, not for your face, or your eyes.
I have noticed that even only a modestly skilled grappler can typically own someone who is uneducated in fighting. I have conversely never seen a modestly trained striker ever dominate that way in any sort of sparring scenario. I think a large part of my observation is that most of the grapplers I have seen train hard, while most of the strikers I know are training in schools where striking hard is frowned upon for safety reasons, head strike are completely disallowed, forms/kata are emphasized too much (IMO), and many of the striking techniques are somewhat unrealistic (i.e., too much hitting the air). Grappling arts allow one to train against considerable resistance with at least a modicum of safety. Fighting against real resistance is a key element in developing a better fighter, in any art one chooses. Thanks for posting this video.
+Charles Reed That's why the dominant striking arts in MMA are boxing, muay thai, Dutch kickboxing, and similar styles. There are plenty of striking arts that train with resistance, and there are grappling arts (traditional jujutsu and aikido come to mind), that don't.
Yes I agree with you, but the point is about what you're facing. Uneducated fighters ofcourse have no experience so are easy targets, same applies for good boxers and kickboxers. I train in Jeet Kune Do so if someone were to exclusively grapple with me and you do not get a hold of both my hands/arms then your eyes throat etc are in for quite the ride. Also I'll bite you and strike at the groin, pull your ear, spit in your face/eyes, fish hook your mouth etc. Not trying to boast or anything, just trying to add some perspective. In reality every range is striking range if you've got your hands free. The key thing here is the difference between self defense training and sports training. Jiu jitsu and wrestling will always be sport training. I'd like to do some grappling traing, because you indeed do not always have the choice in where the fight goes so strength, skill and endurance on the ground is important, but "dirty" techniques make it way simpler then having to muscle up against someone else. Besides that you also have knife attacks and many "martial artists" disagree with this, but controlling or grappling with an armed opponent is nigh impossible. That really is something for when it's already to late to run or kick or whatever. And then besides that you have mulitple opponents, which means that when you're on the ground you're pretty much getting stomped. So I train in both though like I said, Jeet Kune Do ground fighting is more about getting back up again as quickly as you possibly can and without refraining from anything too "brutal".
Even dirty techniques should be applied from a dominant position, or you might just piss off a guy in a position to do more harm to you than you can do to him. As a JKD guy, surely you know that Bruce did some judo with Gene Lebell, and Dan Inosanto has a BJJ black belt and a close connection to catch wrestling through Eric Paulson. Inosanto lineage JKD schools typically teach grappling. I'm a CMA guy, myself (Chen Tai Chi/Hsing-I/Pakua), but I've found a lot of value in the sport styles I've also trained. Ultimately, if you're living right, you shouldn't be getting in to fights all that often, and if your life is that dangerous for whatever reason, get a CCW. Glock-fu beats gongfu any day. With that in mind, train in an art that you enjoy, which increases your fitness in a healthy manner.
I think depends on where and what the striker trains: a modestly skilled boxer from a decent boxing gym (where people really fight) will have a similar advantage over an untrained person who is trying to slug it out as a moderately skilled grappler will have over an untrained person he can force into a grappling contest. Grappling has the greater overall advantage because its typically easier for the pure grappler to force a grappling match against a pure striker than it is for a pure striker keep the fight at striking distance against someone who knows how to grapple. And once it turns in to a grappling situation, even a GOOD boxer or kickboxer will become essentially an untrained person.
A lot of traditionalists don’t understand that in modern mma, being underneath an opponent on the ground is the last place a fighter wants to be. The days of mma fighters pulling guard are a long time ago
Also due to the round time and the stand ups going for a takedown against bjj black/brownbelt who will land punches during you setting up the takedown and probably stand up before you do any damage, makes it a very risky strategy. Guys like Khabib aren't the norm anymore.
I'm sparred with some Judo Olympic hopefuls. It's not even funny how good these guys are. I could stay on my feet for about a minute being defensive against guys 60lbs my junior but every time I attacked they would counter and have me on the floor every time. Against the biggest guys I stay on my feet for 5 seconds before getting thrown to the ground so hard it almost broke my ribs.
Hi! I am not a fighter myself, never have been. And I suppose two heart operations (born 1972) put me out of it. But anyway, thanks, interesting points... Cheers, Jess
In another video some guy said that catch wresting didn't have any submissions until it encountered judo. Is that true? According to this guy catch wrestlers only used pin to win the match. I took that with a grain of salt.
1. "Safe environment" - You and Matt are both right. You're right because of all the reasons you said. Matt's right because when you don't know exactly what kind of fight you're going to be in, you have to hedge your bets, assume the worst, and come up with a fighting strategy that covers as many bases as possible. A fighting strategy that is built on covering-as-many-bases as possible just can't emphasize grappling the way an MMA strategy can. The fact is, in MMA there's all kinds of stuff you can take for granted and that stuff informs your training; you know you're only fighting one person, you know where and when the fight will be, you know the opponent is unarmed, you know there's medical professionals nearby, you know the guy isn't going to try and kill you, etc. etc. But what if you didn't know any of those things? Here's a great anecdote by Urijah Faber (an MMA fighter) and a real-life encounter he had with some miscreants in Bali: ua-cam.com/video/GPOF1RYoY7c/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/k-oCew_ef94/v-deo.html (here he is telling the same story). You'll notice that when he did wind up on the ground, he was only able to get up because other people helped get the bad guys off of him (in the second video), not because of his advanced and skillful knowledge of grappling (which he does have). In a situation like this, he could've been the Ultimate Grappler and it wouldn't have mattered. He could've been Rickson Gracie, and it wouldn't have helped at all. Striking and footwork is what got this kid out of there alive - not grappling. The point is that in real life, a grappling-centered fighting strategy probably isn't going to help much as it does in the ring. It's good to know some grappling, but striking and footwork is far more important to focus on if you're training for the unexpected. 2. "...get yourself out there against a BJJ fighter or a professional MMA fighter... The fact is if they want you on the ground, you're on the ground and the best thing you can possibly do in order to stop that from happening is to grapple....because you do not have a chance when you go up against these guys" This is true, but it doesn't make much sense when you're addressing arguments made by a guy who's specialty is Historical Sword Fighting. You're kind of talking apples and oranges. I mean, you could say the same thing in the other direction. Here...here's me talking to a Hypothetical Amazing MMA Fighter/Grappler: "Get yourself out there against a longsword fighter or saber fighter. The fact is if they want you dismembered or disemboweled the best thing you can possibly do in order to stop that from happening is to fence better than them. The WORST thing you can do is to charge in and try and grapple with them because you do not have a chance against these guys. They have a lethal weapon, they know how to use it, and trying to wrestle with them will get you killed immediately."
I agree that top tier fighters are supperior to most, and that a great grapler would beat a mediocre striker. I would also agree that diversification is necessary in order to achieve the top tier. But there is the thing with over glorifying grapling in the past decade or so. Much like striking was over glorified back in the last century. That is the reason why a lot of martial arts are looked down upon. You talked about selfproclaimed masters, and it is similar with karate, systema and others. But this type of thing started appearing in grapling as well, because of the popularity. Every gym in my city has a BJJ course... And maybe one or two BJJ focused schools.
@@canismajoris6733 sure thing, but you can say the same thing for striking. Yet here we are, McDojos are a thing. Also not everyone can tell the difference, nor does everyone care.
kokofan50 I trained right roundhouse kick by myself without instructor for several months when I was in high school and I knocked out 3 expereienced street fighters in 3 fights with one kick in the head. They did know grappling and dirty fighting, didn't help them much.
As someone with a background in stand-up arts such as boxing and kickboxing, I would categorically agree with the premise that if taken to the ground you are royally f@cked. It's a sad fact for the striking arts that any idiot can throw a punch without much finesse and knock someone out, not necessarily against a highly skilled striker but it can still happen. Conversely, if you have no grappling background you will not get a lucky armbar/triangle/choke/takedown to finish the fight against someone who can grapple. The obvious argument that keeps cropping up is 'Yeah, but, what if I fight dirty, bite, go for the groin or the eyes' etc. I find it hilarious that people honestly thnk that this will be the great leveller. The grappler can, and probably will, also do these things, and be able to control you as he's doing it. I took up BJJ a few years ago, and the ease with which I can now control those who prefer to only strike is laughable, especially as I'm also from a striking background. Regarding the argument that MMA is a safe environment, I have to fully agree with the guy on the video, it's not. Also as a final note, remember, if you can't beat someone when there are rules, you have no chance when there are none. :-)
I somewhat agree with you, but the thing is that there probably will never again come a day where we'll pit two fighters with different backgrounds who are allowed to fight dirty(no rules) against eachother. That would only result in both fighters being wounded with the winner being the one that isn't severly handicapped as much or doesn't die? What's the point to that? You also have the contingency of a knife or multiple opponents. You're telling me you can grapple one guy and defend yourself against two others standing? The argument of striking versus grappling is stupid because the answer is obviously both. In self defense I will fight dirty in whatever range and I'd try to preferably stay at the most range as possible and be prepared for contingencies. Grappling is mainly for getting out of it, not for using it as your go to in self defense. don't get me wrong I love all kinds of martial arts and have been looking for a good jiu jitsu class in my area. I'd just not solely depend on it. Grappling also is heavily dependent on strength training. What are you going to do when you're sixty years old? Go for a double leg takedown on someone bigger or as big, younger and stronger then you? You might have a chance, but the older you get the less it will be. Whereas "dirty" striking can be done by almost anyone at any age.
Hybrid fighters will do well against grapplers though. From personal experience doing both judo as well as many striking arts that doing both will work. Against a pure grappler knowing hybrid is quite effective. Also when fights did go to the ground it wasn't always a grappling technique that settled it. I remember one time to solve the problem of me putting someone in an armbar they rolled into it and dragged me by both ears back out of that position. So while I may have been dominant there are ways out of things especially if you don't expect them. Another instance of that was instead of being able to bridge and shrimp to make space against a larger more skilled grappler, I simply took my thumb and jammed it into the top of the sternum. I was then able to shrimp out of side control and get behind and punch the guy in the back of the head. For me at least in terms of self defense you can escape situations with a hybrid approach.
thank you for this iv tried to explain this to boxers karateka kick boxers hema guys ect i learned the hard way wen i started mma training and did no gi jits its like joe rogan sead it feels like you're 5 years old wrestling a grown man lol
First thing first, argument about the amount of training doesn't hold water. When someone training for 8 hours a day beats someone training for less than one, only thing that tells you is that more training helps, not how good/bad the styles involved are. This is a simple matter of economics, you can make a living (for a while) in MMA, not so much in TMA. Now, there's a distinction that a lot of people forget to make between grappling and ground-fighting. Grappling is an essential part of any martial art that hopes to be effective, whether it uses fists or assault rifles. Ground fighting, not so much. It wasn't really expanded on in manuals from a time when hand to hand combat was (arguably) principal mode of engagement between elite combatants in fights to the death. Fiore? No ground fighting (in a manual that covers everything from fists to horses). Codex Wallerstein? None. Hans Wurm's plates? Nothing. De Arte Athletica? Two pages and that's it. It seems that these people thought that if you got yourself on the ground, you were more or less already dead. In modern times, there's a caveat to that. Fiore probably assumed that a skilled fighter knew not to take you down with him, and you could stop an unskilled one from doing it, since you were much, much better than him. Nowadays with how little time most people have for their martial art, and how MMA is the next hot thing, even a drunk can try and succeed in mutual takedown.
I have to agree that if a grappler takes you down you are not getting up. You might have a chance if you can attack his groin, eyes or neck, but he is also capable of doing so, and even better than you, son it's not the answer. But going for the take down as a default strategy in a real situation is not good at all, because most times you are facing various opponents, and you need to be on your feet to be aware of your surroundings. So you need to learn something that keeps you on your feet, but is reliable enough to control grapplers, and there is plenty of martial arts that can teach you that
TO combat BJJ, you learn wrestling. It prevents you from getting on the ground and slipping out of some shitty 'dominance' positions that BJJ tries to do. To learn stand up, you mix TKD and either MT or Boxing. To submit people, Judo or BJJ. A well rounded figher will always beat a 'master' in one specific style, because he has more options to counter what the 'master' is throwing. Good instances are when Gracie lost in Japan, or when the TKD blackbelt (though undeserving of it he was) was destroyed by an MMA fighter. Or look at GSP's or Anderson Silva's MMA career. GSP started with TKD and incorporated several strikes from MT and Boxing, and eventually worked his way into groundfighting with BJJ. Silva worked in the opposite direction. I think the argument is less of "This ONE martial art is the best" and more of "Which combination of MA's are the best".
"shitty "dominance" positions" BJJ's dominance positions are Mount and Back Mount, and they aren't shitty. "Gracie lost in Japan" Even Mike Tyson lost, it doesn't means shit that some Gracies did, it happens. And btw, Rickson Gracie never lost.
And learn wrestling didn't save no one's ass when the Gracies were the only ones that knew BJJ, let's not be dishonest here. And afaik GSP started with Kyokushin Karate, not TKD.
I have to agree I've studied Tae kwon do, MCMAP, MMA, Muay Thai, BJJ, JUDO, Wing chun, and Krav Maga. I like Krav Maga because it incorporates them all. So I can use all my skills. And he isn't kidding. And judo and BJJ they are sports yes but they have there own (dirty fighting tech's) they have there strikes. And if they know there in a dangerious area and they know that there's a good chance someone is going to step into the fight and team up on you then they can quickly disable or god forbid kill the one on the ground or even standing and then move onto the next person and the next if needed. These guys are mean if needed. There's a reason the military uses these arts is because they are useful and can be leathal. And if you train for real life if you go up to your instructor and say hey. You know I like training in class but id like to get out and train in the street for multiple people where I've got to look out for the cars, or the curb/ditch or the fence and may be 1 or 2 people coming up behind me and just train for some real life things that are likely to happen then most the trainer will agree to do it so long as it's your choice and your partner or guardian approves. They don't wanna get sued. And so on. They understand what and why your asking for that kinda training and most the time they're willing to help you be as prepared as possible.
I disagree with the idea that grappling is a primary form of defense, the ground is the last place you want to be in a fight. I do agree that training in a grappling art is important, but it does not make you unstoppable; as Rousey found out.
@@canismajoris6733 She was knocked out by a round house kick "idiot" and Holly Holm is not a great grappler. She is a boxer/ kickboxer and trained in Karate.
@@seanhiatt6736 To use a "she/he lost" example is horrible dishonest. And just after that fight against Ronda, Holly lost to a, 😱, wrestler. And before Holly, Ronda dominated for a long time, don't be ridiculous.
I have to disagree, I can't remember the name of the fight in Japan versus one of the Gracies, but he couldn't get close enough to bring his opponent to the ground and just got beat up constantly trying to bring him to down. Gracie lost because of it. It's no guarantee, but if you are a ground fighter and you attack a strike fighter, you have to bring him down first to win, but doing so puts you in a position that gives him the first blow(s) which might be all he needs to start winning.
Serahpin I don't think it is reasonable to suggest that one fight from some years ago is proof that grapplers aren't dominant. I'd be interested to see the fight in question if you remember it though.
EnglishMartialArts I fully acknowledge that a single fight is anecdotal evidence and you'd need data from multiple fights to get any real sense of who is dominant. But every time Gracie tried to go in, he got shut down and it ended with him on his back taunting his opponent who just kept kicking him in the legs while he tried to grab him. I watched it at a friend's who had paid for it, so I don't have anything at hand to give to you, web-link-wise. But if you can find it, it's a bad fight because of how one sided it was. Nobody was really happy about it, especially since it was supposed to be a really big thing with the BJJ versus Japanese martial arts rivalry.
EnglishMartialArts To add, if someone tried to grab or grab at me, they'd be getting fist or elbow or knees to soft points immediately. I wouldn't just be standing around letting someone manhandle me so I don't think anyone fully trained in a martial art would allow it to happen to them. But I do agree that _once you are down_ you are going to lose to someone who has specialized in that type of fighting, which is kinda obvious.
Serahpin The point of my video, if I ever make a specific point, is that thinking you have that sort of choice is a mistake. It's evry easy to think that you'd be able to fight of someone who wanted to take you down because you are skilled at striking. I did 8 years of Shotokan, plus many many more of Pugilism, and I was utterly outclassed when I first encountered a good wrestler. The only way to stop a good wrestler, BJJ player, or Judo practitioner is to be as good as they are. Being good at elbowing people is not going to stop you being taken down. If striking arts teach us anything, it is that it is pretty easy to shrug off one or two hits to get what we want. Give it a try, go find a top level wrestler or BJJ blackbelt and see if you can stop them doing whatever the hell they want to you.
EnglishMartialArts I'm not a good example since I think most men could probably do whatever the hell they wanted with me, but I'd do my best to make sure they didn't have it easy.
I think this video was somewhat missing the point of Matt's video, and that is that MMA is an accurate analog of street fighting, nor would you want to do a lot of the things you see in an MMA fight in a "real" fight. Granted, that doesn't mean that street fighting is better than MMA, or that anybody can beat a professional MMA fighter. But the fact is that many of the moves you see in MMA would be very dangerous in a real fight. I've tried grappling against some people with jiu jitsu and got absolutely wrecked. However, there absolutely were moments (in particular a moment where he was about to twist my ankle) where he didn't have full awareness/control of one of my hands and if it were a real fight I very well could have pulled out a hidden knife and stabbed him. Also, I acknowledge that many of the martial arts which form the basis of MMA teach you how to deal with weapons. But at that point your not really doing MMA in the context of how they fight in the octagon, which is kind of the whole point.
You sparred with someone who, at one point, didn't have complete control of one of your hands?? Well he must've been utter shite then. I guess you're doing some form of superhuman martial arts where that could never happen
Wouter H What? He was doing an ankle lock. It does not control hands, look up a video of it. In an MMA fight this is safe because your opponent doesn't have reach or leverage in that position to deliver a damaging strike, but in a street fight if the opponent had a knife they could very easily fatally stab you in the leg. How is this concept difficult for you to understand?
@@Ahuc899 So you don't do those moves. An MMA fighter that's trained is wise enough to make the right calls in a real situation. Most likely, they'd stand and bang as they have the athleticism and skill to win most of these encounters, but have the grappling/clinch-work at their disposal if necessary.
I think it should be mentioned that as long as your grappling is at a good enough level that you can prevent the grappling opponent taking you down then yes your striking will be helpful. However you only will achieve that level by grappling. With very little formal grappling training you will be in trouble against a seasoned grappler assuming you're not incredibly lucky
I never comment on UA-cam, but I could help myself. This video couldn't be more spot on!
I started wrestling when I was 5, wrestled all through college and spent several years fighting and training in professional MMA with the likes of Jon Jones and and Fabricio Werdum.
I just started HEMA long sword about six months ago and there is no comparison between the grappling. It'sa night and day even difference even with the guys who are considered, "good grapplers", though that's not to say they don't smoke me with the blade hahaha.
Awesome. Just got into HEMA with a background in boxing and MMA, and I subbed this channel 2 minutes into this video. Looking forward the watching the rest of your content!
Thanks for the sub, welcome on board!
The paradox is...if you don't train grappling you are nearly 100% sure to end up on the ground against a grappler.
If you are wrestler or Judo black belt...probably not.
Train grappling to avoid going to the floor or to get up, most grapplers are training against players who also want to grapple. They don't have a ton of experience preventing people standing back up.
MMA shows this is a good strategy, it's difficult to get and keep someone with marginal experience in grappling down and keep him there.
Conversely, if a grappler came up against a HEMA practitioner and they both had swords, the guy who was trained to use a sword would likely win similarly comfortably. People are more likely to win in a scenario that favours their particular skill set.
Spot on. After training for over 25yrs I went to a bjj class. Oh dear............
Agreed. You may be able to use dirty tricks and weapons to your advantage in a fight, and you may not want to willingly go to the ground, but you need some grappling skills to use those weapons/strikes/foul tactics, etc., and to prevent yourself from being taken to the ground. Combative wrestling is the basis for all other fighting, especially with close range weapons and in self defense situations, drones and sniper rifles notwithstanding.
The argument of "i can poke them in the eyes or bite or punch them in the nuts" is so entertaining,what,you think they cant/wont do the same in a street fight,the big difference is they can do it from a far superior position and really ruin your day..they dont really need to be that experienced to get the upper hand against somebody who hasnt done so much as an hour on the mats..
The problem with these kinds of blows is that if you do em to someone, you more or less give permission in a sense for the guy to do it back to you, and if you've eye poked a superior grappler who now has top position on you, that's not going to be a fun day, not for your face, or your eyes.
@@leroy4320 Bas covered this issue in his own unique style..
ua-cam.com/video/4f4W-kBU9Xk/v-deo.html
I have noticed that even only a modestly skilled grappler can typically own someone who is uneducated in fighting. I have conversely never seen a modestly trained striker ever dominate that way in any sort of sparring scenario. I think a large part of my observation is that most of the grapplers I have seen train hard, while most of the strikers I know are training in schools where striking hard is frowned upon for safety reasons, head strike are completely disallowed, forms/kata are emphasized too much (IMO), and many of the striking techniques are somewhat unrealistic (i.e., too much hitting the air). Grappling arts allow one to train against considerable resistance with at least a modicum of safety. Fighting against real resistance is a key element in developing a better fighter, in any art one chooses. Thanks for posting this video.
+Charles Reed That's why the dominant striking arts in MMA are boxing, muay thai, Dutch kickboxing, and similar styles. There are plenty of striking arts that train with resistance, and there are grappling arts (traditional jujutsu and aikido come to mind), that don't.
+Brian Kaplan Thanks for the reply!
Yes I agree with you, but the point is about what you're facing. Uneducated fighters ofcourse have no experience so are easy targets, same applies for good boxers and kickboxers. I train in Jeet Kune Do so if someone were to exclusively grapple with me and you do not get a hold of both my hands/arms then your eyes throat etc are in for quite the ride. Also I'll bite you and strike at the groin, pull your ear, spit in your face/eyes, fish hook your mouth etc. Not trying to boast or anything, just trying to add some perspective. In reality every range is striking range if you've got your hands free. The key thing here is the difference between self defense training and sports training. Jiu jitsu and wrestling will always be sport training. I'd like to do some grappling traing, because you indeed do not always have the choice in where the fight goes so strength, skill and endurance on the ground is important, but "dirty" techniques make it way simpler then having to muscle up against someone else. Besides that you also have knife attacks and many "martial artists" disagree with this, but controlling or grappling with an armed opponent is nigh impossible. That really is something for when it's already to late to run or kick or whatever. And then besides that you have mulitple opponents, which means that when you're on the ground you're pretty much getting stomped. So I train in both though like I said, Jeet Kune Do ground fighting is more about getting back up again as quickly as you possibly can and without refraining from anything too "brutal".
Even dirty techniques should be applied from a dominant position, or you might just piss off a guy in a position to do more harm to you than you can do to him. As a JKD guy, surely you know that Bruce did some judo with Gene Lebell, and Dan Inosanto has a BJJ black belt and a close connection to catch wrestling through Eric Paulson. Inosanto lineage JKD schools typically teach grappling. I'm a CMA guy, myself (Chen Tai Chi/Hsing-I/Pakua), but I've found a lot of value in the sport styles I've also trained. Ultimately, if you're living right, you shouldn't be getting in to fights all that often, and if your life is that dangerous for whatever reason, get a CCW. Glock-fu beats gongfu any day. With that in mind, train in an art that you enjoy, which increases your fitness in a healthy manner.
I think depends on where and what the striker trains: a modestly skilled boxer from a decent boxing gym (where people really fight) will have a similar advantage over an untrained person who is trying to slug it out as a moderately skilled grappler will have over an untrained person he can force into a grappling contest. Grappling has the greater overall advantage because its typically easier for the pure grappler to force a grappling match against a pure striker than it is for a pure striker keep the fight at striking distance against someone who knows how to grapple. And once it turns in to a grappling situation, even a GOOD boxer or kickboxer will become essentially an untrained person.
A lot of traditionalists don’t understand that in modern mma, being underneath an opponent on the ground is the last place a fighter wants to be. The days of mma fighters pulling guard are a long time ago
Also due to the round time and the stand ups going for a takedown against bjj black/brownbelt who will land punches during you setting up the takedown and probably stand up before you do any damage,
makes it a very risky strategy.
Guys like Khabib aren't the norm anymore.
I'm sparred with some Judo Olympic hopefuls. It's not even funny how good these guys are. I could stay on my feet for about a minute being defensive against guys 60lbs my junior but every time I attacked they would counter and have me on the floor every time. Against the biggest guys I stay on my feet for 5 seconds before getting thrown to the ground so hard it almost broke my ribs.
Awesome stuff! You are dead on.
Thanks for putting Grappling in perspective.
If I'm gonna fight a heavy armoured riot police officer, I'd pick HEMA. If I'm gonna fight a lone ranger, I'd take MMA.
Hi!
I am not a fighter myself, never have been. And I suppose two heart operations (born 1972) put me out of it. But anyway, thanks, interesting points...
Cheers, Jess
In another video some guy said that catch wresting didn't have any submissions until it encountered judo. Is that true? According to this guy catch wrestlers only used pin to win the match. I took that with a grain of salt.
What are those 'juggling club' shaped things in the background?
+Ardie83 Indian Clubs/Maces.
Well Said!
1. "Safe environment" - You and Matt are both right. You're right because of all the reasons you said. Matt's right because when you don't know exactly what kind of fight you're going to be in, you have to hedge your bets, assume the worst, and come up with a fighting strategy that covers as many bases as possible. A fighting strategy that is built on covering-as-many-bases as possible just can't emphasize grappling the way an MMA strategy can.
The fact is, in MMA there's all kinds of stuff you can take for granted and that stuff informs your training; you know you're only fighting one person, you know where and when the fight will be, you know the opponent is unarmed, you know there's medical professionals nearby, you know the guy isn't going to try and kill you, etc. etc.
But what if you didn't know any of those things? Here's a great anecdote by Urijah Faber (an MMA fighter) and a real-life encounter he had with some miscreants in Bali:
ua-cam.com/video/GPOF1RYoY7c/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/k-oCew_ef94/v-deo.html (here he is telling the same story).
You'll notice that when he did wind up on the ground, he was only able to get up because other people helped get the bad guys off of him (in the second video), not because of his advanced and skillful knowledge of grappling (which he does have).
In a situation like this, he could've been the Ultimate Grappler and it wouldn't have mattered. He could've been Rickson Gracie, and it wouldn't have helped at all. Striking and footwork is what got this kid out of there alive - not grappling.
The point is that in real life, a grappling-centered fighting strategy probably isn't going to help much as it does in the ring. It's good to know some grappling, but striking and footwork is far more important to focus on if you're training for the unexpected.
2. "...get yourself out there against a BJJ fighter or a professional MMA fighter... The fact is if they want you on the ground, you're on the ground and the best thing you can possibly do in order to stop that from happening is to grapple....because you do not have a chance when you go up against these guys"
This is true, but it doesn't make much sense when you're addressing arguments made by a guy who's specialty is Historical Sword Fighting. You're kind of talking apples and oranges.
I mean, you could say the same thing in the other direction. Here...here's me talking to a Hypothetical Amazing MMA Fighter/Grappler:
"Get yourself out there against a longsword fighter or saber fighter. The fact is if they want you dismembered or disemboweled the best thing you can possibly do in order to stop that from happening is to fence better than them. The WORST thing you can do is to charge in and try and grapple with them because you do not have a chance against these guys. They have a lethal weapon, they know how to use it, and trying to wrestle with them will get you killed immediately."
I agree that top tier fighters are supperior to most, and that a great grapler would beat a mediocre striker. I would also agree that diversification is necessary in order to achieve the top tier. But there is the thing with over glorifying grapling in the past decade or so. Much like striking was over glorified back in the last century. That is the reason why a lot of martial arts are looked down upon. You talked about selfproclaimed masters, and it is similar with karate, systema and others. But this type of thing started appearing in grapling as well, because of the popularity. Every gym in my city has a BJJ course... And maybe one or two BJJ focused schools.
you cant really be self proclaimed master in bjj since people will roll with you and figure out you suck
@@canismajoris6733 sure thing, but you can say the same thing for striking. Yet here we are, McDojos are a thing. Also not everyone can tell the difference, nor does everyone care.
I was in BJJ for 8 months about 5 years ago, and I could beat people that didn't know grappling without much problem.
kokofan50
I trained right roundhouse kick by myself without instructor for several months when I was in high school and I knocked out 3 expereienced street fighters in 3 fights with one kick in the head. They did know grappling and dirty fighting, didn't help them much.
si lafuyang "experienced street fighters" LMAO
As someone with a background in stand-up arts such as boxing and kickboxing, I would categorically agree with the premise that if taken to the ground you are royally f@cked. It's a sad fact for the striking arts that any idiot can throw a punch without much finesse and knock someone out, not necessarily against a highly skilled striker but it can still happen. Conversely, if you have no grappling background you will not get a lucky armbar/triangle/choke/takedown to finish the fight against someone who can grapple.
The obvious argument that keeps cropping up is 'Yeah, but, what if I fight dirty, bite, go for the groin or the eyes' etc. I find it hilarious that people honestly thnk that this will be the great leveller. The grappler can, and probably will, also do these things, and be able to control you as he's doing it. I took up BJJ a few years ago, and the ease with which I can now control those who prefer to only strike is laughable, especially as I'm also from a striking background.
Regarding the argument that MMA is a safe environment, I have to fully agree with the guy on the video, it's not.
Also as a final note, remember, if you can't beat someone when there are rules, you have no chance when there are none.
:-)
I somewhat agree with you, but the thing is that there probably will never again come a day where we'll pit two fighters with different backgrounds who are allowed to fight dirty(no rules) against eachother. That would only result in both fighters being wounded with the winner being the one that isn't severly handicapped as much or doesn't die? What's the point to that? You also have the contingency of a knife or multiple opponents. You're telling me you can grapple one guy and defend yourself against two others standing? The argument of striking versus grappling is stupid because the answer is obviously both. In self defense I will fight dirty in whatever range and I'd try to preferably stay at the most range as possible and be prepared for contingencies. Grappling is mainly for getting out of it, not for using it as your go to in self defense. don't get me wrong I love all kinds of martial arts and have been looking for a good jiu jitsu class in my area. I'd just not solely depend on it. Grappling also is heavily dependent on strength training. What are you going to do when you're sixty years old? Go for a double leg takedown on someone bigger or as big, younger and stronger then you? You might have a chance, but the older you get the less it will be. Whereas "dirty" striking can be done by almost anyone at any age.
Hybrid fighters will do well against grapplers though. From personal experience doing both judo as well as many striking arts that doing both will work. Against a pure grappler knowing hybrid is quite effective. Also when fights did go to the ground it wasn't always a grappling technique that settled it. I remember one time to solve the problem of me putting someone in an armbar they rolled into it and dragged me by both ears back out of that position. So while I may have been dominant there are ways out of things especially if you don't expect them. Another instance of that was instead of being able to bridge and shrimp to make space against a larger more skilled grappler, I simply took my thumb and jammed it into the top of the sternum. I was then able to shrimp out of side control and get behind and punch the guy in the back of the head. For me at least in terms of self defense you can escape situations with a hybrid approach.
thank you for this iv tried to explain this to boxers karateka kick boxers hema guys ect i learned the hard way wen i started mma training and did no gi jits its like joe rogan sead it feels like you're 5 years old wrestling a grown man lol
First thing first, argument about the amount of training doesn't hold water. When someone training for 8 hours a day beats someone training for less than one, only thing that tells you is that more training helps, not how good/bad the styles involved are. This is a simple matter of economics, you can make a living (for a while) in MMA, not so much in TMA.
Now, there's a distinction that a lot of people forget to make between grappling and ground-fighting. Grappling is an essential part of any martial art that hopes to be effective, whether it uses fists or assault rifles. Ground fighting, not so much. It wasn't really expanded on in manuals from a time when hand to hand combat was (arguably) principal mode of engagement between elite combatants in fights to the death.
Fiore? No ground fighting (in a manual that covers everything from fists to horses). Codex Wallerstein? None. Hans Wurm's plates? Nothing. De Arte Athletica? Two pages and that's it. It seems that these people thought that if you got yourself on the ground, you were more or less already dead.
In modern times, there's a caveat to that. Fiore probably assumed that a skilled fighter knew not to take you down with him, and you could stop an unskilled one from doing it, since you were much, much better than him. Nowadays with how little time most people have for their martial art, and how MMA is the next hot thing, even a drunk can try and succeed in mutual takedown.
Catch is King!
I have to agree that if a grappler takes you down you are not getting up. You might have a chance if you can attack his groin, eyes or neck, but he is also capable of doing so, and even better than you, son it's not the answer. But going for the take down as a default strategy in a real situation is not good at all, because most times you are facing various opponents, and you need to be on your feet to be aware of your surroundings. So you need to learn something that keeps you on your feet, but is reliable enough to control grapplers, and there is plenty of martial arts that can teach you that
I agree on all points but you can't deny that some holds/mount etc would be easy to break if you fought dirty.
TO combat BJJ, you learn wrestling. It prevents you from getting on the ground and slipping out of some shitty 'dominance' positions that BJJ tries to do. To learn stand up, you mix TKD and either MT or Boxing. To submit people, Judo or BJJ. A well rounded figher will always beat a 'master' in one specific style, because he has more options to counter what the 'master' is throwing. Good instances are when Gracie lost in Japan, or when the TKD blackbelt (though undeserving of it he was) was destroyed by an MMA fighter. Or look at GSP's or Anderson Silva's MMA career. GSP started with TKD and incorporated several strikes from MT and Boxing, and eventually worked his way into groundfighting with BJJ. Silva worked in the opposite direction.
I think the argument is less of "This ONE martial art is the best" and more of "Which combination of MA's are the best".
to beat bjj, learn bjj. to beat wrestling, learn wrestling. etc etc which ends up being mma
"shitty "dominance" positions"
BJJ's dominance positions are Mount and Back Mount, and they aren't shitty.
"Gracie lost in Japan"
Even Mike Tyson lost, it doesn't means shit that some Gracies did, it happens. And btw, Rickson Gracie never lost.
And learn wrestling didn't save no one's ass when the Gracies were the only ones that knew BJJ, let's not be dishonest here. And afaik GSP started with Kyokushin Karate, not TKD.
I have to agree I've studied Tae kwon do, MCMAP, MMA, Muay Thai, BJJ, JUDO, Wing chun, and Krav Maga. I like Krav Maga because it incorporates them all. So I can use all my skills. And he isn't kidding. And judo and BJJ they are sports yes but they have there own (dirty fighting tech's) they have there strikes. And if they know there in a dangerious area and they know that there's a good chance someone is going to step into the fight and team up on you then they can quickly disable or god forbid kill the one on the ground or even standing and then move onto the next person and the next if needed. These guys are mean if needed. There's a reason the military uses these arts is because they are useful and can be leathal. And if you train for real life if you go up to your instructor and say hey. You know I like training in class but id like to get out and train in the street for multiple people where I've got to look out for the cars, or the curb/ditch or the fence and may be 1 or 2 people coming up behind me and just train for some real life things that are likely to happen then most the trainer will agree to do it so long as it's your choice and your partner or guardian approves. They don't wanna get sued. And so on. They understand what and why your asking for that kinda training and most the time they're willing to help you be as prepared as possible.
I disagree with the idea that grappling is a primary form of defense, the ground is the last place you want to be in a fight. I do agree that training in a grappling art is important, but it does not make you unstoppable; as Rousey found out.
because all her opponents are also trained grapplers you idiot
@@canismajoris6733 She was knocked out by a round house kick "idiot" and Holly Holm is not a great grappler. She is a boxer/ kickboxer and trained in Karate.
@@seanhiatt6736 To use a "she/he lost" example is horrible dishonest. And just after that fight against Ronda, Holly lost to a, 😱, wrestler. And before Holly, Ronda dominated for a long time, don't be ridiculous.
@@seanhiatt6736 And I didn't found nothing regarding Holm's karate ...
I have to disagree, I can't remember the name of the fight in Japan versus one of the Gracies, but he couldn't get close enough to bring his opponent to the ground and just got beat up constantly trying to bring him to down. Gracie lost because of it.
It's no guarantee, but if you are a ground fighter and you attack a strike fighter, you have to bring him down first to win, but doing so puts you in a position that gives him the first blow(s) which might be all he needs to start winning.
Serahpin I don't think it is reasonable to suggest that one fight from some years ago is proof that grapplers aren't dominant. I'd be interested to see the fight in question if you remember it though.
EnglishMartialArts I fully acknowledge that a single fight is anecdotal evidence and you'd need data from multiple fights to get any real sense of who is dominant. But every time Gracie tried to go in, he got shut down and it ended with him on his back taunting his opponent who just kept kicking him in the legs while he tried to grab him.
I watched it at a friend's who had paid for it, so I don't have anything at hand to give to you, web-link-wise. But if you can find it, it's a bad fight because of how one sided it was. Nobody was really happy about it, especially since it was supposed to be a really big thing with the BJJ versus Japanese martial arts rivalry.
EnglishMartialArts To add, if someone tried to grab or grab at me, they'd be getting fist or elbow or knees to soft points immediately. I wouldn't just be standing around letting someone manhandle me so I don't think anyone fully trained in a martial art would allow it to happen to them. But I do agree that _once you are down_ you are going to lose to someone who has specialized in that type of fighting, which is kinda obvious.
Serahpin The point of my video, if I ever make a specific point, is that thinking you have that sort of choice is a mistake.
It's evry easy to think that you'd be able to fight of someone who wanted to take you down because you are skilled at striking. I did 8 years of Shotokan, plus many many more of Pugilism, and I was utterly outclassed when I first encountered a good wrestler.
The only way to stop a good wrestler, BJJ player, or Judo practitioner is to be as good as they are. Being good at elbowing people is not going to stop you being taken down. If striking arts teach us anything, it is that it is pretty easy to shrug off one or two hits to get what we want.
Give it a try, go find a top level wrestler or BJJ blackbelt and see if you can stop them doing whatever the hell they want to you.
EnglishMartialArts I'm not a good example since I think most men could probably do whatever the hell they wanted with me, but I'd do my best to make sure they didn't have it easy.
I think this video was somewhat missing the point of Matt's video, and that is that MMA is an accurate analog of street fighting, nor would you want to do a lot of the things you see in an MMA fight in a "real" fight.
Granted, that doesn't mean that street fighting is better than MMA, or that anybody can beat a professional MMA fighter. But the fact is that many of the moves you see in MMA would be very dangerous in a real fight. I've tried grappling against some people with jiu jitsu and got absolutely wrecked. However, there absolutely were moments (in particular a moment where he was about to twist my ankle) where he didn't have full awareness/control of one of my hands and if it were a real fight I very well could have pulled out a hidden knife and stabbed him.
Also, I acknowledge that many of the martial arts which form the basis of MMA teach you how to deal with weapons. But at that point your not really doing MMA in the context of how they fight in the octagon, which is kind of the whole point.
Ahuc899 Just think how much more dangerous you would be if you had trained grappling AND carried a knife.
You sparred with someone who, at one point, didn't have complete control of one of your hands?? Well he must've been utter shite then. I guess you're doing some form of superhuman martial arts where that could never happen
Wouter H What? He was doing an ankle lock. It does not control hands, look up a video of it. In an MMA fight this is safe because your opponent doesn't have reach or leverage in that position to deliver a damaging strike, but in a street fight if the opponent had a knife they could very easily fatally stab you in the leg. How is this concept difficult for you to understand?
@@Ahuc899 So you don't do those moves. An MMA fighter that's trained is wise enough to make the right calls in a real situation. Most likely, they'd stand and bang as they have the athleticism and skill to win most of these encounters, but have the grappling/clinch-work at their disposal if necessary.
A real rondel dagger and a real claymore greatsword will make the bjj with a real knife think twice before grappling a hema practitioner. 😉
I think it should be mentioned that as long as your grappling is at a good enough level that you can prevent the grappling opponent taking you down then yes your striking will be helpful. However you only will achieve that level by grappling. With very little formal grappling training you will be in trouble against a seasoned grappler assuming you're not incredibly lucky