Starfleet is a Navy. In all honesty even today’s Navies do perform humanitarian efforts such as disaster relief, and other functions, not just combat on the waters
Interesting that a non-adapted Borg Cube can only take potentially 12 Phaser Blasts from a Galaxy class Starship. (Based on how 3 took out 20% of the cube)
Yes. That's due to the sheer size and mass of the ship, though: look at the size of those holes and put a Klingon ship there instead, or even another Enterprise.
Which makes sense, even running conservative numbers I've run on the D's performance against a comet that's described as being mostly ice in _Masks_ has her outputting between 127 and 254 megatons per second with her phasers explicitly stated as being at 10% power. Which translates to around 1.27 to 2.54 gigatons per second.
@@redshirt0479Further corroborated by the fact that the energy output of the Enterprise-D is 12.75 Billion Gigawatts or... 3.0325875 Gigatons per second lol.
I would like to offer this thought. Let’s pretend that the original members of the Federation met to formally decide what the government would look like the issues of defense would have been in the forefront. I believe during this series of meetings that the members would have come to conclusion that the federation needed military capabilities (the ability to fight and defend on the ground as well as in the vacuum of space). I think that the Vulcans would have backed this idea. The reason I say this is because if you look at the ST universe through movie, tv and games, no matter what series...the federation is surrounded by hostile assholes. Hell even within the federation members can be problematic with one another. If you look at every series the universe hasn’t gotten any better. If it wasn’t the Klingons Romulans of the TOS, you had to deal with the Borg, Cardassians and Dominion of TNG DS9. From the TOS and starfleet battles the federation also had to deal with the extra galactic Andromedans and the neo federation like boarder line fascist ISC. The world of the federation is pretty damn hostile and it would be unrealistic for the federation not to have a standing military.
I mean, Picard is also technically right. Starfleet, especially in the 24th century, is more akin to a modern gendarmerie combined with aspects of an Age of Sail navy [Armed vessels of exploration, armed merchant vessels, the fact that only a flag officer or captain can relieve an acting captain (DS9: Valiant), etc.] Both a military and not a military. Of course a lot modern militaries also regularly go on scientific and humanitarian a lot more often than they do combat missions at this point. Although Sisko mentioned that the _Defiant_ would be part of a "new Federation battle fleet" before the program was scrapped, which implies that there have been dedicated combat fleets in the past and probably present or Starfleet command was going to reorganize the fleet into a traditional fleet/battle group structure in preparation for a Borg invasion since during peacetime they have vessels operating mostly on their own. Or Sisko meant that the _Defiant_ would be so impactful that Starfleet would need to redesign their standard battlegroup formation to include them. Speaking of the _Defiant_ , I've always felt the design was a bit overhyped. Slow, unitasker, finicky systems, etc. Plus given how fast she was built, I'm pretty sure that she was mostly thrown together with off the shelf parts rather than being a totally new design. Which would make sense if you want a vessel you can produce for minimal resource investment and fast. And she's not even that powerful, she mostly destroys corvette, frigate, and destroyer equivalents while a modified Light Cruiser and heavier can tear her to shreds.
_"I mean, Picard is also technically right. (...) Both a military and not a military. Of course a lot modern militaries also regularly go on scientific and humanitarian a lot more often than they do combat missions at this point."_ No, he isn't right: the definition of military speaks for itself. Your last sentence there just proved conclusively that Starfleeet is a military. Also, the Needs of the Many outweigh the Needs of the Few or the One. Trading one Borg for tens of thousands - possibly billions - of sentient and sapient life forms is just wrong, on a practical as well as _moral_ level. _'Speaking of the Defiant , I've always felt the design was a bit overhyped. Slow, unitasker, finicky systems, etc. "_ Sisko's Defiant is officially an escort: a small, maneuverable battlewagon made exclusively to protect space stations and larger starships in combat situations. It was only finicky because Sisko packed so much firepower into it's little hull: it's basically a flying gun. _"Plus given how fast she was built, I'm pretty sure that she was mostly thrown together with off the shelf parts rather than being a totally new design. Which would make sense if you want a vessel you can produce for minimal resource investment and fast. "_ It's clear to see that the Defiant doesn't use any standardized parts with other ships at the time it was launched. That, and you seem to have completely forgotten about replicator technology. _"And she's not even that powerful, she mostly destroys corvette, frigate, and destroyer equivalents while a modified Light Cruiser and heavier can tear her to shreds."_ Of course: the Defiant works best as part of a task force, not alone. The Defiant is an escort, not a battleship (Only fanboys try to treat it as such). The Defiant is highly maneuverable, and monstrously overpowered for it's tiny size, but quite fragile. Against a bigger ship with accurate enough weapons to hit it, and the Defiant class falls quickly - the Valiant showed us that when it fought against a Dominion battleship alone.
Fair point, which is why I usually compare Starfleet to the US Coast Guard. Military in everything but name and with more expansive duties (e.g. They also act as a form of federal level law enforcement in certain instances, conduct search and rescue operations for civilian craft, etc.). Although as a side note, I don't think the plan would have worked anyway. It made a lot of assumptions about the Borg that I don't think pan out. I should have been more specific when I said "off the shelf parts", I meant that most of her parts were already part of the database and used on other ship designs or similar enough to them that it would only take some light modification to use the parts from an older vessel. Mostly because they designed, built, tested, and mothballed the prototype in under three years. Which is an insanely fast turn around time for a project like this, even more so if they had to design and test a lot of new tech at the same time. I completely agree with you on the rest, though. Especially since her vaunted ablative armor was tissue paper without the structural integrity field backing it up as Eddington's Ju'day class raider could have outright destroyed the _Defiant_ after his virus wiped out all of her systems.
@@redshirt0479 _"Although as a side note, I don't think the plan would have worked anyway. It made a lot of assumptions about the Borg that I don't think pan out."_ Considering the usual writing in TNG, it likely would have worked: look at what happened to the Borg in _Descent Part 2._ That, and it should have at least been tried. _"I should have been more specific when I said "off the shelf parts", I meant that most of her parts were already part of the database and used on other ship designs or similar enough to them that it would only take some light modification to use the parts from an older vessel. "_ i.ytimg.com/vi/4cr-H4BYO2Q/maxresdefault.jpg
Maybe, but I doubt it would have spread beyond a single cube. "Feel free to tell me which parts those are." Computer core, EPS conduits, phaser arrays, Optical Data Network, etc. are probably completely interchangeable with the rest of the fleet. Torpedo tubes are likely just modified versions of standard photon torpedo tubes since it's been established that the only thing needed to fire quantum torpedoes is just a slight modification. Phaser cannons have been around in one form or another since at least the _Miranda_ class, so the schematics were probably on hand already. Especially since you can see cannon like structures on the pylons of the _Constellation_ class, the underside of the _Freedom_ class's saucer section, etc. Warp core is probably an upscaled version of a standard warp core for a ship of that size or downscaled from a larger ship. Really the only thing that had to be custom made beyond the hull would be the warp coils since the _Defiant_ uses some absolute monsters there. "Starfleet's replicators and computer simulations would speed that up considerably." Yes, but it's still an insanely fast turnaround.
@@redshirt0479 _"Maybe, but I doubt it would have spread beyond a single cube."_ One single cube taken down is still better than no cubes at all. _"Computer core, EPS conduits, phaser arrays, Optical Data Network, etc. are probably completely interchangeable with the rest of the fleet."_ Those systems make up very little mass in the ship overall. _"Torpedo tubes are likely just modified versions of standard photon torpedo tubes since it's been established that the only thing needed to fire quantum torpedoes is just a slight modification."_ This is true. _"Phaser cannons have been around in one form or another since at least the Miranda class, so the schematics were probably on hand already. Especially since you can see cannon like structures on the pylons of the Constellation class, the underside of the Freedom class's saucer section, etc."_ The _Defiant's_ phaser cannons are only ever seen on the Defiant class: they are built feeding directly from the warp core in a highly compact arrangement that fits into a space small enough to fit inside the Enterprise-D's shuttlebay, and shares space with the impulse thrusters. _"Warp core is probably an upscaled version of a standard warp core for a ship of that size or downscaled from a larger ship. Really the only thing that had to be custom made beyond the hull would be the warp coils since the Defiant uses some absolute monsters there."_ The Defiant uses a class 7 warp drive: vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/f/f0/Defiant_Main_Engineering.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081128054538&path-prefix=en It uses four simultaneously operating matter and antimatter injector feeds to increase power output. _"Yes, but it's still an insanely fast turnaround."_ The refit Enterprise was an almost totally new ship, and that only took 18 months using older technology.
Well, no but because the Spanish navy hadn't been instituted yet. They were part of the Castilian navy, which would later merge together with the Aragonese navy, forming the Spanish navy.
I always wrestled with this. It seems like Gene Roddenberry wanted, by the 24th century, for humans to move past the profession of war. My guess is the producers pushed for a more military perspective. You can tell how conflicts are resolved in later TNG and DS9 episodes, with Starfleet officers shooting first and asking questions later as a matter of course. I'm thinking of how many "enemies" the Federation has in later seasons vs the beginning of TNG.
*_"Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, it's organization is only semi-military._* _The "enlisted men" category does not exist. Star Trek goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, and therefore an officer."_ - Gene Roddenberry, quoted from The Making of Star Trek, page 209, emphasis mine. _"I'm a soldier, not a diplomat."_ - James Tiberius Kirk , captain of the Starship Enterprise. Army Air Corps Captain Eugene Wesley Roddenberry 394th Bombardment Squadron was a military man. His version of Star Trek was _the original Star Trek,_ and that show did not shy away from military confrontations, especially when he was writing. You are confusing Hollywood's manipulations with his original intention, which was always to portray an armed Space Force.
@@Idazmi7 I'm specifically talking about TNG, not TOS. It's clear that by the 24th century, Gene Roddenberry envisioned a future where humanity had moved beyond the need for conflict. Hence the reason why there's a Klingon serving in Starfleet, and despite constant provocations by the Romulans, Starfleet refuses to engage in battle with them. The military aspects of the Enterprise D, in the early seasons of TNG, feel like relics of an older time. Picard constantly stresses that they are explorers, not a military, on many occasions throughout the series, not because he was suffering from cognitive dissonance, but because the direction of the show at the time was to portray a more peaceful future based upon exploration, self-mastery, and scientific discovery. These rather utopian ideals vanished after a few seasons, especially with the introduction of the Borg. You can argue that Starfleet realized it needed to retain its military function after the Borg, the Dominion, the Klingons, the Cardassians, the Maquis, etc. But it certainly was not Gene's original intention. If anything, the Hollywood manipulation made the series more militant, not less.
@@nordfreiheit _"(...) But it certainly was not Gene's original intention. If anything, the Hollywood manipulation made the series more militant, not less."_ Yet, the quote above about Starfleet being a military comes directly from Gene Roddenberry. I've never seen a _direct quote_ from Gene saying anything less. I _have_ seen such comments from people like Rick Berman. _"I'm specifically talking about TNG, not TOS. It's clear that by the 24th century, Gene Roddenberry envisioned a future where humanity had moved beyond the need for conflict. Hence the reason why there's a Klingon serving in Starfleet, and despite constant provocations by the Romulans, Starfleet refuses to engage in battle with them."_ Please tell me this isn't a serious statement right now. A Klingon serving in Starfleet doesn't make Starfleet into a non-military: it makes them NOT racists: racism and militarism are not the same thing. Also, the Federation clearly fought a war with Cardassia, and in _Redemption_ threatened war against the Romulans in the event they interfered in the Klingon civil war. _"The military aspects of the Enterprise D, in the early seasons of TNG, feel like relics of an older time. Picard constantly stresses that they are explorers, not a military, on many occasions throughout the series, not because he was suffering from cognitive dissonance, but because the direction of the show at the time was to portray a more peaceful future based upon exploration, self-mastery, and scientific discovery."_ You can straight-up _see_ that Picard - as a matter of character design - is simply not accepting of what Starfleet *_is._* That doesn't in any way indicate that Roddenberry wanted to abolish war in the Star Trek Universe. You're saying that everything Roddenberry actually _said_ is irrelevant because one character has an opinion: a _wrong_ opinion. _"These rather utopian ideals vanished after a few seasons, especially with the introduction of the Borg. You can argue that Starfleet realized it needed to retain its military function after the Borg, the Dominion, the Klingons, the Cardassians, the Maquis, etc."_ Even before they showed up, the Enterprise was an armed ship with a dedicated "battle section". It was always a ship that was ready to protect the Federation - with _military_ force.
@@Idazmi7 Your own quote goes against your position that Starfleet=military. "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, it's organization is *********** only semi-military. *********** The "enlisted men" category does not exist. Star Trek goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, and therefore an officer." - Gene Roddenberry, quoted from The Making of Star Trek, page 209. Granted, that has changed in the TNG era, but its obvious from both series (actually, all the series) that Starfleet was flexible enough to take on military responsibilities when the times called for it, but remained at a considerable disadvantage against pure militaries during real wartime. Despite their huge resources, the Federation is very slow to mobilize, their ships (mostly designed for exploration and science missions - Save for their flagship) are ill-equiped to handle extended combat assignments. If you want to see a Real Military Starfleet - you have to look at the alternate-timeline starfleet in Yesterday's Enterprise: ua-cam.com/video/QL_EqRkzliw/v-deo.html As it is, Starfleet is as much a Military as the Jedi Order is a military in the Prequels.
@@Elurin _"Your own quote goes against your position that Starfleet=military."_ www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/star-trek-blueprints-sheet-4.jpg - _"The Heavy Cruiser Starship Class is the main element of the United Federation of Planets Peace Keeping Forces."_ - note 2 on that page, copyright 1973 Paramount Pictures Corporation. Notice the ship being referred to is the original Constitution Class. That is canon. That note means the Constitution Class is a common vessel, and it is not a science vessel: "peace-keeping forces" is diplomatic speak for "military might". In addition, if you knew how to read, you'd know that the Enterprise being a military vessel and it's crew being military officers, as per Roddenberry himself - directly *supports* my argument, but you're much too silly for that. NASA astronauts are most often military officers, too. _"Granted, that has changed in the TNG era, but its obvious from both series (actually, all the series) that Starfleet was flexible enough to take on military responsibilities when the times called for it, but remained at a considerable disadvantage against pure militaries during real wartime. Despite their huge resources, the Federation is very slow to mobilize, their ships (mostly designed for exploration and science missions - Save for their flagship) are ill-equiped to handle extended combat assignments."_ So I was _imagining_ things when the Romulans got their butts kicked repeatedly at the Neutral Zone (their"finest flagship" defeated by a typical cruiser, their cloaking device stolen, and their admiral kidnapped...) And when the Tholians attacked Enterprise (a standard Constitution Class cruiser), only for Enterprise to disable one of their ships with a half-power phaser blast. And when the Klingons repeatedly got their butts kicked, especially in _Elaan of Troyus:_ ("direct hit amidships by photon torpedo, heavy damage to klingon vessel, loss of maneuver power... she is badly damaged, maneuvering away at reduced speed") Don't even get me started on _The Wrath of Khan_ and _The Undiscovered Country,_ which show just how impressive the Enterprise, Avenger, and Excelsior class ships actually were in battle: www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/star-trek-the-motion-picture.php - Enterprise class www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/general-plans-uss-avenger-class.php - USS Reliant www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/excelsior-blueprints.php - USS Excelsior Yesterday's Enterprise as a whole is a contradiction that pretends TOS and it's movies don't exist. The Starfleet is a military, full stop.
@@Idazmi7 fascinating. I rewatched the episode on both it's 1990 and remastered formats and didn't see the extra Explosions. I did however see them in a documentary about the special effects used in the episode.
@@Idazmi7 Starfleet should just make a few hundred of those and just ram the Borg Cube with them. They appear to be as large as a Daedalus, Defiant, or Oberth class (80-170 meters range)
I fundamentally agree with part 1. I fundamentally disagree with part 2. In part 1 you use many examples from various episodes and don't feel the need to explicate the sceens. Here, you say that Piccard is the one rationalizing, but you're the one trying to explain the meaning of the scenes, which you felt was not necessary to do in part 1 (and you were correct). I think the truth is that in the original series, Starfleet is primarily a millitary, but seeks out other life forms (and to some extent science) for the purpose of expanding the power of the state. However, in the Next Generation it is clear that starfleet has inverted those values--that isn't to say that there's no military aspect of starfleet, only that it isn't the number one goal (i.e. prime directive). However, the prime directive does indeed exist in the original series as well, but as stated earlier, it is referenced infrequently and rarely does Kirk even give the prime directive more than 10 seconds of deliberation. Piccard, however, spends entire episodes contemplating what the best action is in accordance to the prime directive. However, its also possible that Piccard is a useful idiot, as you imply, and the prime directive is just Starfleet's propaganda to subvert negative opinions of starfleet's tyrrany. However, if that were actually true, then I think you would be able to provide a little evidence of the tyranny within starfleet, yet, there is not much evidence of tyranny within starfleet; the only episodes that I can think of that even comes close is the episode where Piccard is tasked with moving Indian colonists from a recently established colony close to the neutral zone--and the only reason that is ever given is the imminent threat from the Romulans. It would be one thing if there was at least implied that they want to remove the colonists because of some resource or something, but it never is. However, I concede that there are military aspects in both series. But, I think its actually a misnomer to call either a "military" organization. Insteaed, I think the term "militia" is more appropriate. You say that the United Federation of Planets is a soveriegn state--well it may be, but I don't think there is any reason to think that it is. When we hear that word, we think of federalism, vs confederalism which were two different types of governments that were debated at the beginning of the formation of the USA. However, there isn't any evidence that there is a federal centralized government. Indeed, the United federation of planets may indeed be starfleet itself, which is evidentally NOT a government, but instead a central organization that is made up of many different lifeforms that is in the United Federation of Planets. I.e. to join the federation, is to allow your citizens to join starfleet.
_"(...) However, its also possible that Piccard is a useful idiot, as you imply, and the prime directive is just Starfleet's propaganda to subvert negative opinions of starfleet's tyrrany. However, if that were actually true, then I think you would be able to provide a little evidence of the tyranny within starfleet (...)"_ (sigh!) *First,* I did not imply that Picard is a 'useful idiot.' I am of the opinion that idiots are fundamentally not useful. *Second,* military =/= tyranny. *Third,* the Prime Directive, in fact, existed in Kirk's era, and was far more strongly enforced than it was in Picard's time. _The Omega Glory_ revolved around Kirk doing his best to undo the damage another captain had caused by violating the Prime Directive, under the penalty of immediate discharge if he didn't. Meanwhile, Picard royally abused the Prime Directive in _Who Watches the Watchers_ and was not even given a slap on the wrist. _"However, I concede that there are military aspects in both series. But, I think its actually a misnomer to call either a "military" organization. (...)"_ Every single thing you said beyond this point is utterly ridiculous to the point that I can compare it to Picard's rationalizing ways. *Facts:* The Federation has officially recognized borders and recognizes foreign territories. It also makes laws, negotiates treaties, declares trade routes, arms and trains men and women to fight in it's defense, and declares war. *It is a sovereign state.* The persons who defend the Federation are an officially recognized government funded organization that dresses in uniform, has unique emblems, and a martial tradition that dates back centuries, including a "courts martial" that tries it's members according to a uniform code of military justice. *They are a military.* _"Indeed, the United federation of planets may indeed be starfleet itself, (...)"_ Which would make the Federation a *military dictatorship.* The Federation has a president, as well as a council, both of which are separate from the Starfleet, so that is clearly not the case (Thank God).
Starfleet is a Navy. In all honesty even today’s Navies do perform humanitarian efforts such as disaster relief, and other functions, not just combat on the waters
Exactly.
Is starfleet a military. Idk is Hydrogen a gas?
I *_wish_* that more people would understand this simple fact as easily as you do. >.
It is a metal
Interesting that a non-adapted Borg Cube can only take potentially 12 Phaser Blasts from a Galaxy class Starship. (Based on how 3 took out 20% of the cube)
Yes. That's due to the sheer size and mass of the ship, though: look at the size of those holes and put a Klingon ship there instead, or even another Enterprise.
Which makes sense, even running conservative numbers I've run on the D's performance against a comet that's described as being mostly ice in _Masks_ has her outputting between 127 and 254 megatons per second with her phasers explicitly stated as being at 10% power.
Which translates to around 1.27 to 2.54 gigatons per second.
@@redshirt0479 damn....
@@redshirt0479Further corroborated by the fact that the energy output of the Enterprise-D is 12.75 Billion Gigawatts or... 3.0325875 Gigatons per second lol.
I would like to offer this thought. Let’s pretend that the original members of the Federation met to formally decide what the government would look like the issues of defense would have been in the forefront. I believe during this series of meetings that the members would have come to conclusion that the federation needed military capabilities (the ability to fight and defend on the ground as well as in the vacuum of space). I think that the Vulcans would have backed this idea. The reason I say this is because if you look at the ST universe through movie, tv and games, no matter what series...the federation is surrounded by hostile assholes. Hell even within the federation members can be problematic with one another. If you look at every series the universe hasn’t gotten any better. If it wasn’t the Klingons Romulans of the TOS, you had to deal with the Borg, Cardassians and Dominion of TNG DS9. From the TOS and starfleet battles the federation also had to deal with the extra galactic Andromedans and the neo federation like boarder line fascist ISC. The world of the federation is pretty damn hostile and it would be unrealistic for the federation not to have a standing military.
Precisely.
I mean, Picard is also technically right. Starfleet, especially in the 24th century, is more akin to a modern gendarmerie combined with aspects of an Age of Sail navy [Armed vessels of exploration, armed merchant vessels, the fact that only a flag officer or captain can relieve an acting captain (DS9: Valiant), etc.]
Both a military and not a military. Of course a lot modern militaries also regularly go on scientific and humanitarian a lot more often than they do combat missions at this point.
Although Sisko mentioned that the _Defiant_ would be part of a "new Federation battle fleet" before the program was scrapped, which implies that there have been dedicated combat fleets in the past and probably present or Starfleet command was going to reorganize the fleet into a traditional fleet/battle group structure in preparation for a Borg invasion since during peacetime they have vessels operating mostly on their own.
Or Sisko meant that the _Defiant_ would be so impactful that Starfleet would need to redesign their standard battlegroup formation to include them.
Speaking of the _Defiant_ , I've always felt the design was a bit overhyped. Slow, unitasker, finicky systems, etc.
Plus given how fast she was built, I'm pretty sure that she was mostly thrown together with off the shelf parts rather than being a totally new design. Which would make sense if you want a vessel you can produce for minimal resource investment and fast.
And she's not even that powerful, she mostly destroys corvette, frigate, and destroyer equivalents while a modified Light Cruiser and heavier can tear her to shreds.
_"I mean, Picard is also technically right. (...) Both a military and not a military. Of course a lot modern militaries also regularly go on scientific and humanitarian a lot more often than they do combat missions at this point."_
No, he isn't right: the definition of military speaks for itself. Your last sentence there just proved conclusively that Starfleeet is a military. Also, the Needs of the Many outweigh the Needs of the Few or the One. Trading one Borg for tens of thousands - possibly billions - of sentient and sapient life forms is just wrong, on a practical as well as _moral_ level.
_'Speaking of the Defiant , I've always felt the design was a bit overhyped. Slow, unitasker, finicky systems, etc.
"_
Sisko's Defiant is officially an escort: a small, maneuverable battlewagon made exclusively to protect space stations and larger starships in combat situations. It was only finicky because Sisko packed so much firepower into it's little hull: it's basically a flying gun.
_"Plus given how fast she was built, I'm pretty sure that she was mostly thrown together with off the shelf parts rather than being a totally new design. Which would make sense if you want a vessel you can produce for minimal resource investment and fast.
"_
It's clear to see that the Defiant doesn't use any standardized parts with other ships at the time it was launched. That, and you seem to have completely forgotten about replicator technology.
_"And she's not even that powerful, she mostly destroys corvette, frigate, and destroyer equivalents while a modified Light Cruiser and heavier can tear her to shreds."_
Of course: the Defiant works best as part of a task force, not alone. The Defiant is an escort, not a battleship (Only fanboys try to treat it as such). The Defiant is highly maneuverable, and monstrously overpowered for it's tiny size, but quite fragile. Against a bigger ship with accurate enough weapons to hit it, and the Defiant class falls quickly - the Valiant showed us that when it fought against a Dominion battleship alone.
Fair point, which is why I usually compare Starfleet to the US Coast Guard. Military in everything but name and with more expansive duties (e.g. They also act as a form of federal level law enforcement in certain instances, conduct search and rescue operations for civilian craft, etc.).
Although as a side note, I don't think the plan would have worked anyway. It made a lot of assumptions about the Borg that I don't think pan out.
I should have been more specific when I said "off the shelf parts", I meant that most of her parts were already part of the database and used on other ship designs or similar enough to them that it would only take some light modification to use the parts from an older vessel.
Mostly because they designed, built, tested, and mothballed the prototype in under three years. Which is an insanely fast turn around time for a project like this, even more so if they had to design and test a lot of new tech at the same time.
I completely agree with you on the rest, though. Especially since her vaunted ablative armor was tissue paper without the structural integrity field backing it up as Eddington's Ju'day class raider could have outright destroyed the _Defiant_ after his virus wiped out all of her systems.
@@redshirt0479
_"Although as a side note, I don't think the plan would have worked anyway. It made a lot of assumptions about the Borg that I don't think pan out."_
Considering the usual writing in TNG, it likely would have worked: look at what happened to the Borg in _Descent Part 2._ That, and it should have at least been tried.
_"I should have been more specific when I said "off the shelf parts", I meant that most of her parts were already part of the database and used on other ship designs or similar enough to them that it would only take some light modification to use the parts from an older vessel.
"_
i.ytimg.com/vi/4cr-H4BYO2Q/maxresdefault.jpg
Maybe, but I doubt it would have spread beyond a single cube.
"Feel free to tell me which parts those are."
Computer core, EPS conduits, phaser arrays, Optical Data Network, etc. are probably completely interchangeable with the rest of the fleet.
Torpedo tubes are likely just modified versions of standard photon torpedo tubes since it's been established that the only thing needed to fire quantum torpedoes is just a slight modification.
Phaser cannons have been around in one form or another since at least the _Miranda_ class, so the schematics were probably on hand already. Especially since you can see cannon like structures on the pylons of the _Constellation_ class, the underside of the _Freedom_ class's saucer section, etc.
Warp core is probably an upscaled version of a standard warp core for a ship of that size or downscaled from a larger ship.
Really the only thing that had to be custom made beyond the hull would be the warp coils since the _Defiant_ uses some absolute monsters there.
"Starfleet's replicators and computer simulations would speed that up considerably."
Yes, but it's still an insanely fast turnaround.
@@redshirt0479
_"Maybe, but I doubt it would have spread beyond a single cube."_
One single cube taken down is still better than no cubes at all.
_"Computer core, EPS conduits, phaser arrays, Optical Data Network, etc. are probably completely interchangeable with the rest of the fleet."_
Those systems make up very little mass in the ship overall.
_"Torpedo tubes are likely just modified versions of standard photon torpedo tubes since it's been established that the only thing needed to fire quantum torpedoes is just a slight modification."_
This is true.
_"Phaser cannons have been around in one form or another since at least the Miranda class, so the schematics were probably on hand already. Especially since you can see cannon like structures on the pylons of the Constellation class, the underside of the Freedom class's saucer section, etc."_
The _Defiant's_ phaser cannons are only ever seen on the Defiant class: they are built feeding directly from the warp core in a highly compact arrangement that fits into a space small enough to fit inside the Enterprise-D's shuttlebay, and shares space with the impulse thrusters.
_"Warp core is probably an upscaled version of a standard warp core for a ship of that size or downscaled from a larger ship.
Really the only thing that had to be custom made beyond the hull would be the warp coils since the Defiant uses some absolute monsters there."_
The Defiant uses a class 7 warp drive:
vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/f/f0/Defiant_Main_Engineering.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081128054538&path-prefix=en
It uses four simultaneously operating matter and antimatter injector feeds to increase power output.
_"Yes, but it's still an insanely fast turnaround."_
The refit Enterprise was an almost totally new ship, and that only took 18 months using older technology.
Was Christopher Columbus and his ships part of the Spanish navy?
Well, no but because the Spanish navy hadn't been instituted yet. They were part of the Castilian navy, which would later merge together with the Aragonese navy, forming the Spanish navy.
I always wrestled with this. It seems like Gene Roddenberry wanted, by the 24th century, for humans to move past the profession of war. My guess is the producers pushed for a more military perspective. You can tell how conflicts are resolved in later TNG and DS9 episodes, with Starfleet officers shooting first and asking questions later as a matter of course. I'm thinking of how many "enemies" the Federation has in later seasons vs the beginning of TNG.
*_"Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, it's organization is only semi-military._* _The "enlisted men" category does not exist. Star Trek goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, and therefore an officer."_ - Gene Roddenberry, quoted from The Making of Star Trek, page 209, emphasis mine.
_"I'm a soldier, not a diplomat."_ - James Tiberius Kirk
, captain of the Starship Enterprise.
Army Air Corps Captain Eugene Wesley Roddenberry 394th Bombardment Squadron was a military man. His version of Star Trek was _the original Star Trek,_ and that show did not shy away from military confrontations, especially when he was writing. You are confusing Hollywood's manipulations with his original intention, which was always to portray an armed Space Force.
@@Idazmi7 I'm specifically talking about TNG, not TOS. It's clear that by the 24th century, Gene Roddenberry envisioned a future where humanity had moved beyond the need for conflict. Hence the reason why there's a Klingon serving in Starfleet, and despite constant provocations by the Romulans, Starfleet refuses to engage in battle with them.
The military aspects of the Enterprise D, in the early seasons of TNG, feel like relics of an older time. Picard constantly stresses that they are explorers, not a military, on many occasions throughout the series, not because he was suffering from cognitive dissonance, but because the direction of the show at the time was to portray a more peaceful future based upon exploration, self-mastery, and scientific discovery.
These rather utopian ideals vanished after a few seasons, especially with the introduction of the Borg. You can argue that Starfleet realized it needed to retain its military function after the Borg, the Dominion, the Klingons, the Cardassians, the Maquis, etc. But it certainly was not Gene's original intention. If anything, the Hollywood manipulation made the series more militant, not less.
@@nordfreiheit
_"(...) But it certainly was not Gene's original intention. If anything, the Hollywood manipulation made the series more militant, not less."_
Yet, the quote above about Starfleet being a military comes directly from Gene Roddenberry. I've never seen a _direct quote_ from Gene saying anything less. I _have_ seen such comments from people like Rick Berman.
_"I'm specifically talking about TNG, not TOS. It's clear that by the 24th century, Gene Roddenberry envisioned a future where humanity had moved beyond the need for conflict. Hence the reason why there's a Klingon serving in Starfleet, and despite constant provocations by the Romulans, Starfleet refuses to engage in battle with them."_
Please tell me this isn't a serious statement right now.
A Klingon serving in Starfleet doesn't make Starfleet into a non-military: it makes them NOT racists: racism and militarism are not the same thing. Also, the Federation clearly fought a war with Cardassia, and in _Redemption_ threatened war against the Romulans in the event they interfered in the Klingon civil war.
_"The military aspects of the Enterprise D, in the early seasons of TNG, feel like relics of an older time. Picard constantly stresses that they are explorers, not a military, on many occasions throughout the series, not because he was suffering from cognitive dissonance, but because the direction of the show at the time was to portray a more peaceful future based upon exploration, self-mastery, and scientific discovery."_
You can straight-up _see_ that Picard - as a matter of character design - is simply not accepting of what Starfleet *_is._* That doesn't in any way indicate that Roddenberry wanted to abolish war in the Star Trek Universe. You're saying that everything Roddenberry actually _said_ is irrelevant because one character has an opinion: a _wrong_ opinion.
_"These rather utopian ideals vanished after a few seasons, especially with the introduction of the Borg. You can argue that Starfleet realized it needed to retain its military function after the Borg, the Dominion, the Klingons, the Cardassians, the Maquis, etc."_
Even before they showed up, the Enterprise was an armed ship with a dedicated "battle section". It was always a ship that was ready to protect the Federation - with _military_ force.
@@Idazmi7 Your own quote goes against your position that Starfleet=military. "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, it's organization is *********** only semi-military. *********** The "enlisted men" category does not exist. Star Trek goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, and therefore an officer." - Gene Roddenberry, quoted from The Making of Star Trek, page 209. Granted, that has changed in the TNG era, but its obvious from both series (actually, all the series) that Starfleet was flexible enough to take on military responsibilities when the times called for it, but remained at a considerable disadvantage against pure militaries during real wartime. Despite their huge resources, the Federation is very slow to mobilize, their ships (mostly designed for exploration and science missions - Save for their flagship) are ill-equiped to handle extended combat assignments. If you want to see a Real Military Starfleet - you have to look at the alternate-timeline starfleet in Yesterday's Enterprise: ua-cam.com/video/QL_EqRkzliw/v-deo.html As it is, Starfleet is as much a Military as the Jedi Order is a military in the Prequels.
@@Elurin
_"Your own quote goes against your position that Starfleet=military."_
www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/star-trek-blueprints-sheet-4.jpg - _"The Heavy Cruiser Starship Class is the main element of the United Federation of Planets Peace Keeping Forces."_ - note 2 on that page, copyright 1973 Paramount Pictures Corporation. Notice the ship being referred to is the original Constitution Class. That is canon.
That note means the Constitution Class is a common vessel, and it is not a science vessel: "peace-keeping forces" is diplomatic speak for "military might". In addition, if you knew how to read, you'd know that the Enterprise being a military vessel and it's crew being military officers, as per Roddenberry himself - directly *supports* my argument, but you're much too silly for that. NASA astronauts are most often military officers, too.
_"Granted, that has changed in the TNG era, but its obvious from both series (actually, all the series) that Starfleet was flexible enough to take on military responsibilities when the times called for it, but remained at a considerable disadvantage against pure militaries during real wartime. Despite their huge resources, the Federation is very slow to mobilize, their ships (mostly designed for exploration and science missions - Save for their flagship) are ill-equiped to handle extended combat assignments."_
So I was _imagining_ things when the Romulans got their butts kicked repeatedly at the Neutral Zone (their"finest flagship" defeated by a typical cruiser, their cloaking device stolen, and their admiral kidnapped...)
And when the Tholians attacked Enterprise (a standard Constitution Class cruiser), only for Enterprise to disable one of their ships with a half-power phaser blast.
And when the Klingons repeatedly got their butts kicked, especially in _Elaan of Troyus:_ ("direct hit amidships by photon torpedo, heavy damage to klingon vessel, loss of maneuver power... she is badly damaged, maneuvering away at reduced speed")
Don't even get me started on _The Wrath of Khan_ and _The Undiscovered Country,_ which show just how impressive the Enterprise, Avenger, and Excelsior class ships actually were in battle:
www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/star-trek-the-motion-picture.php - Enterprise class
www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/general-plans-uss-avenger-class.php - USS Reliant
www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/excelsior-blueprints.php - USS Excelsior
Yesterday's Enterprise as a whole is a contradiction that pretends TOS and it's movies don't exist. The Starfleet is a military, full stop.
A satisfying video :)
Thank you. Feel free to use it as a reference if you ever need to.
Starfleet in the TNG "Golden Age" does not consider itself a military force, even though it has a military rank structure and chain of command.
This entire video stands in opposition to your statement.
4:56 where is this footage from?
The Best of Both Worlds. Those were drone defense ships from Mars.
@@Idazmi7 what about the extra Explosions that aren't present in the episode?
@@richardched6085
That's nothing more than the full shot of the Borg ship made for the episode. They just didn't add in the extra drone ships.
@@Idazmi7 fascinating. I rewatched the episode on both it's 1990 and remastered formats and didn't see the extra Explosions. I did however see them in a documentary about the special effects used in the episode.
@@Idazmi7 Starfleet should just make a few hundred of those and just ram the Borg Cube with them. They appear to be as large as a Daedalus, Defiant, or Oberth class (80-170 meters range)
I fundamentally agree with part 1. I fundamentally disagree with part 2. In part 1 you use many examples from various episodes and don't feel the need to explicate the sceens. Here, you say that Piccard is the one rationalizing, but you're the one trying to explain the meaning of the scenes, which you felt was not necessary to do in part 1 (and you were correct).
I think the truth is that in the original series, Starfleet is primarily a millitary, but seeks out other life forms (and to some extent science) for the purpose of expanding the power of the state. However, in the Next Generation it is clear that starfleet has inverted those values--that isn't to say that there's no military aspect of starfleet, only that it isn't the number one goal (i.e. prime directive).
However, the prime directive does indeed exist in the original series as well, but as stated earlier, it is referenced infrequently and rarely does Kirk even give the prime directive more than 10 seconds of deliberation. Piccard, however, spends entire episodes contemplating what the best action is in accordance to the prime directive.
However, its also possible that Piccard is a useful idiot, as you imply, and the prime directive is just Starfleet's propaganda to subvert negative opinions of starfleet's tyrrany. However, if that were actually true, then I think you would be able to provide a little evidence of the tyranny within starfleet, yet, there is not much evidence of tyranny within starfleet; the only episodes that I can think of that even comes close is the episode where Piccard is tasked with moving Indian colonists from a recently established colony close to the neutral zone--and the only reason that is ever given is the imminent threat from the Romulans. It would be one thing if there was at least implied that they want to remove the colonists because of some resource or something, but it never is.
However, I concede that there are military aspects in both series. But, I think its actually a misnomer to call either a "military" organization. Insteaed, I think the term "militia" is more appropriate. You say that the United Federation of Planets is a soveriegn state--well it may be, but I don't think there is any reason to think that it is. When we hear that word, we think of federalism, vs confederalism which were two different types of governments that were debated at the beginning of the formation of the USA. However, there isn't any evidence that there is a federal centralized government. Indeed, the United federation of planets may indeed be starfleet itself, which is evidentally NOT a government, but instead a central organization that is made up of many different lifeforms that is in the United Federation of Planets. I.e. to join the federation, is to allow your citizens to join starfleet.
_"(...) However, its also possible that Piccard is a useful idiot, as you imply, and the prime directive is just Starfleet's propaganda to subvert negative opinions of starfleet's tyrrany. However, if that were actually true, then I think you would be able to provide a little evidence of the tyranny within starfleet (...)"_
(sigh!)
*First,* I did not imply that Picard is a 'useful idiot.' I am of the opinion that idiots are fundamentally not useful. *Second,* military =/= tyranny. *Third,* the Prime Directive, in fact, existed in Kirk's era, and was far more strongly enforced than it was in Picard's time. _The Omega Glory_ revolved around Kirk doing his best to undo the damage another captain had caused by violating the Prime Directive, under the penalty of immediate discharge if he didn't. Meanwhile, Picard royally abused the Prime Directive in _Who Watches the Watchers_ and was not even given a slap on the wrist.
_"However, I concede that there are military aspects in both series. But, I think its actually a misnomer to call either a "military" organization. (...)"_
Every single thing you said beyond this point is utterly ridiculous to the point that I can compare it to Picard's rationalizing ways.
*Facts:* The Federation has officially recognized borders and recognizes foreign territories. It also makes laws, negotiates treaties, declares trade routes, arms and trains men and women to fight in it's defense, and declares war. *It is a sovereign state.* The persons who defend the Federation are an officially recognized government funded organization that dresses in uniform, has unique emblems, and a martial tradition that dates back centuries, including a "courts martial" that tries it's members according to a uniform code of military justice. *They are a military.*
_"Indeed, the United federation of planets may indeed be starfleet itself, (...)"_
Which would make the Federation a *military dictatorship.* The Federation has a president, as well as a council, both of which are separate from the Starfleet, so that is clearly not the case (Thank God).
Lucky because as a military they are very incompetent. I’d be very worried if you told me Starfleet was securing my right flank
You didn't watch the video, I see.