Heavily disagree with Wrenn and Six being on this list. The ult is completely game winning. Maybe not in a super flashy way, but being able to cast a spells like lightning bolt or kolagon's command, one or more times a turn, at no card disadvantage... you never lose that game and the threat of Wrenn's ultimate demands an answer and it's a big reason why the card is so strong.
I feel like he evaluated Wrenn as if you always had to choose between keeping Wrenn in play to keep using the +1 and getting the emblem. Like, nothing in the game rules prohibit you from ticking up your Planeswalker past their ultimate before using it...it's just that Wrenn is arguably one of the few ones where it actually makes sense a lot of the time.
@@gcleeman it's decent even in Vintage... I've seen a few vintage queues or leagues in MTGO where Wrenn locks the game down as long as possible with wasteland, but then serves as an alt win condition by recurring Time Walk for infinite turns. A card that serves as a good lock piece AND wins the game in a combo for 2 mana is not bad even for vintage. Honestly it's one of his worst takes in memory.
Kasmina by herself is the suck. But combined with Narset and/or Saheeli she gets pretty good. I built around anoyher planeswalker with a terrible ultimate: Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge
But... Everyone uses Wrenn's ability. It's always used to end the game by capping off the card advantage generated by the card in other phases. It's used to generate the last lightning bolt you need to finish the game.
@@jonaderjona5805 There are plenty of decks in Modern that have used Time Warp as an infinite turns combo with Wren’s ultimate to straight-up win the game.
I've never really thought of Oko's last ability as an ult since it's so easy for him to build to it multiple times in a game, it's just another one of the annoying, super synergistic things he can do
Gideon's Ultimate is good. Gideon has no minus ability, so if your opponent doesn't attack him, he will exile their permanents time after time, basically for free. It's often enough of a reason for the opponent to make disadvantageous attacks just to lower Gideon's loyalty.
Good point. It might not be used often, but just the fact that it exists, it can influence the opponent's decision making. It's a sort of "threat of activation".
It is not underpowered specifically on Gideon because he's always a creature on your turn and can also attack in addition to using the ability. On a standard planeswalker, it's a pretty bad ultimate. One of the Chandras can deal 10 to a player and all their creatures for - 7, which is so much better in almost every scenario.
Besides, Gideon is used in aggressive decks especially, so the opponent often times doesn't want to attack at all. I've seen Gideon use his Ultimate ability several times per game, and that's pretty impressive for a 3-mana Planeswalker. To be fair though, I'd argue that this isn't an Ultimate ability at all, but rather a "normal" minus ability.
Unsure if that really is an ultimate. Never really looked at it like that when using him. But ur def right about the opponent making disadvantaged attacks to get him off the board too. Soemtimes they ignore him more often then they should too and find them self in a bad spot after a turn or two. One of my fave planeswalkers ever. I used to bait ppl with him and hit them with Gideons triumph. Sometimes id let him die and use brought back before the turn is over. So many ways to protect gideon during war of the spark
Wait... Kasmina? Sure it's janky and all, but you have a ton of walkers that come into play with plenty of loyalty and others that spend their life using + abilites. she's a combo-ish card..... you'll run her alongside walkers like Sarkhan the mad or Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner, and then use that utilimate to tutor up ridiculously big spells. It's very, very janky, sure, but also very interesting and generates some crazy moments. I love it.
This has already been noted by others, but Wrenn ultimate doesn’t belong on this list. Retrace doesn’t look like that big of a deal at first glance and certainly isn’t the most powerful game winning ultimate; however, the context matters here. The big piece of context is actually something you mentioned which is their +1. Pulling a land from your graveyard is very powerful but naturally scales down as the game progresses. This often means you end up with a hand full of lands and no action, but Wrennblem allows you to cash all of those in for the best spells in magic. The second piece of critical context is costing 2 mana. This has a few tack-on effects: Ultimate is easier to achieve in a game since Wrenn comes down early, this also means it’s more realistic to delay the emblem by a turn to keep Wrenn around, and the cost means folks usually have 4 copies which makes dropping a second Wrenn realistic and incredibly potent. Wrenn ultimate certainly does not belong on a list of worst ultimates.
I straight-up bellied laugh when Oko showed up. He very much deserves to be on this list, but associating him with the word "worst" in any context is bonkers hilarious 😂
For having such a crappy ultimate, I sure have won (and lost) tons of games with Wrenn and Sixes ultimate. How is turning every land in your hand for the rest of the game into the best spell in your graveyard BAD, in literally any way, shape, or form? Now, I would buy the argument that Wrenn is one of the few (good) planeswalkers that you don't necessarily ultimate as soon as you can because of how much synergy there is between the emblem and the +1, but if you start your turn with a Wrenn at 8 loyalty, unless you are literally going to lose the game unless you return a Boseiju or whatever to your hand, you are getting that emblem approximately 100% of the time.
I think the thing here is the perception of what a good ultimate is. Generally people expect the ultimate to be such a strong "I win" button without needing to build around it that you'll likely never get to; your opponent will concede before passing the turn to you where you would be able to use it. Wrenn and Six's can be pretty much game ending if you can use it to retrace extra turn effects in conjunction with the +1, but otherwise, it's just an advantage, and one that if you are on the ropes might not even save you. And if measuring it on the scale I mentioned, just needed to keep the Walker on the field is a knock against the ultimate as well. It creates a situation where it can actually be advantageous to let your opponent Ult with Wrenn and Six, the hit it with a Bolt or Shock to kill it, and suddenly that Ult loses a lot of fuel.
Hey nizzahon, usually I really like your videos and also your subjective ones but this one felt a bit odd, throughout the video it wasn't really clear what the system for ranking the cards was, was it just the strength of the effect in a vacuum or did the context of the whole card play into it? For example dovin only draws 3 cards but his plus effect also has the potential to put a huge amount of loyalty onto him so it's 3 cards for relatively cheap, he is still not a great planeswalker but this definitely plays into it, the confusion got especially big for me at gideon blackblade, yes just exiling a nonland permanent is a very weak ultimate when looked at in a vacuum but on that card it was extremely good, especially during his time in standard, he is essentially a 3 mana 4/4 aggressive creature which you mentioned but he had the major upside of ticking up constantly as he doesn't have a minus ability to a removal spell against your opponents board stabilizer against decks that can go bigger than the white weeny he was played in, so in the context of the card his ultimate was very strong and pretty relevant, I still always look forward to your videos but wanted to give some feedback on this
Wren is one of the most played and feared walker in moderen and it is because of his ultimate. Op will spend vast resources to awnser him or try to delay the ultimate even if by 1 turn.
The ultimate is good but it isn't why they're feared. They're feared for their ability to invalidate x/1s, fix mana, and generate card advantage by recurring fetchlands.
Is the ability judged in context or not? Because it looks like we're changing the rules for each walker. Gideon Blackblades ability is weak, in a vacuum, but is incredibly useful and easy to reach (the "significant work" of sticking on board for 2-3 turns and remembering to plus). Kasmina's ultimate, on the other hand, is incredibly strong, but seems difficult to reach. Might as well have put Nicol Bolas, the Arisen on here, since you'll probably never ultimate him either.
Super fun list that clearly garners lots of opinions. Worth noting with Oko, he can use his ultimate _next turn_ and still be left with 1 loyalty, thanks to the +2. This is rare for Planeswalkers whose ultimate is usually power-indexed to 2-3 turns away.
In Dovin's partial defense, his ultimate synergizes with his +1, so that in a go-wide deck in theory he could use his very underwhelming ultimate the very next turn and maybe even stick around.
Yup, I've got a Dovin Historic Brawl deck and it's honestly quite common for me to ult him the turn after he comes down, while still keeping him around.
Oh yeah, I run it in my Kykar flying aggro deck and I frequently get him to double digit loyalty if I have a lot of Birds/Spirits/Thopters. If his "ultimate" was more like a traditional ultimate he'd be busted in EDH. But being able to -7 and get a bunch of quality gas in your hand is "just right" for him, it's enough of a reward to make pumping his loyalty worth it, while not being so strong that it's too easy to get to. Unique card but very fair and well designed card IMO.
I don't agree with wrenn being on this list, in modern (where wrenn is most played since it doesn't see so much commander play and it's banned in legacy) when it ults you win the game, you just need a single bolt or a single counterspell in gy and you are already playing many lands, not counting the ones that it gives back to you wrenn itself
I think you didn't measure the PW's ultimate in regards to their mana cost. Cuz uh Oko's ult was used pretty often to steal key cards and is just as much of a reason he was broken as his other two abilities.
I feel like, with at least half of these, the ults actually feel appropriately designed given the context of the rest of the card, even if they’re bad in a vacuum. Like Dovin and especially Lolth, they have abilities that can, at least in theory, on the first turn they come down quickly raise their loyalty way past the amount needed to ult. So they *could* ult either every turn thereafter or every other turn, so the ult had to be designed in a way where it’s not utterly back breaking for your opponent if you activate them multiple times in a game
About Dack you said that most of the time when you target a permanent you are gonna kill it anyway, however when you for example target a land with hydroblast or pyroblast you are just gonna steal it since these spells cant kill it, same goes for non blue, non red permanents. You can also steal any creature with fatal push for example. Any spell that can only target permanents opponents control also fizzle after you gained control of them.
I love that I've used almost all of these ultimates to great effect. Sometimes you just need to exile the one thing with Giddeon or cast lightning bolt over and over with Wrenn and Six. Literally an hour ago I used Dovin's ultimate to go from a slightly-ahead stalemate to winning.
You should take into consideration that most of these ultimates are used after they go 1 loyality above the ultimate. This is especially true with gideon blackblade as it's often used against a control deck as a sideboard card from a white aggro deck. Usually it's the only thing left in the board while your other stuff is forcing a boardwipe and it easily reaches 7-10 loyality before your opponent dies as your other stuff gets traded for life gaining effects like absorb. And then if they drop a teferi and plus you can just minus it out
He specifically mentions this when talking about Gideon. He says if you use it when you can, it's just a 1 for 1 trade, so to get any real value, you have to get him to 7 loyalty anyway.
@@corey2232 But getting gideon into 7 loyality isn't hard. He doesn't have a minus ability he has basically a "free" loyality ability compared to other gideons and the +1. And it's not REALLY a 1for1 trade because the card has done some serious work before using that ult. and using 3 mana sorcery to exile a nonland permanent isn't that bad of a trade either
@@irou95 It's still 3 activations and then a 4th turn to then use the ult while keeping him at 1 loyalty. I'm just pointing out what was said in the video, and it's still a 1 for 1 trade if you activate at 6, even if you did damage with him prior. Losing a planeswalker to exile 1 permanent is not a great ult
I find Oko’s ultimate to be pretty decent in Commander. A LOT of strong Commanders out there have amazing abilities and low stats. Trading a Food for your opponent’s Commander is amazing. And if the Commander is too big to steal, meh, make it an Elk like usual
I think it's usually better to +1 and turn it into an elk, than spend 5 to steal it. Your deck likely doesn't synergise with their commander, and turning it into an elk is usually crippling enough. And having 6 more health on Oko makes you more likely to do it again.
The reason Oko is banned across pretty much all 1v1 formats is that he punishes your opponent for playing big creatures, small creatures, and no creatures. Big creatures he can elk into 3/3s. Against no creatures he can steadily generate an army of 3/3s while gaining absurd amounts of loyalty. But I think there is something to be said for Oko's ult allowing him to deal with multiple small creatures. Trading your food for your opponent's best small creature often allowed you to gain some insane advantage off snagging a resource and forcing them to make some unfavorable attacks to deal with him. His ult made going wide with smaller creatures less effective and really rounded out his kit to the point of there being no real counterplay. I think it deserves a bit more credit.
I really think that Oko's ultimate was designed as if Oko's elking ability lasted until the end of your next turn. It makes more sense that you'd elk their strongest creature, steal it with the food you've been making and at the end have the strongest creature in its original state. Why on God's green earth would you want an elk on your board for 6 loyalty?
@@boopmcdoop7841 said bomb must be 3 power or less though, which is conveniently the power of an elk. I'd imagine you'd wanna make their bomb qualify for the trade before making the most of it yourself but Oko's +1 doesn't makr that work
i mean, what makes oko so powerful are the "tricks" you can do with his abilities. like, making food and turning your opponent's things into 3/3s sound underwhelming at best, just a way to dump excess mana into your life total, add some fuel to food synergies, beef up your weenies ( to an upper limit ), or knock some stats off of big creatures ... but then you realize you can also turn your opponent's mana dork or _rock_ into a 3/3 vanilla, or do the same with _any_ of their creatures or artifacts that facilitates their game plan through its text box, or do the same to _all that food_ to pump out your own 3/3 every other turn ... yeah, oko is just kinda the gift that keeps on giving, where even when you think you've figured out all the possible ways you could apply his basics, someone hits you with yet another interaction you'd never seen before meanwhile, his ultimate is a donate effect that also swipes a creature that has 3 power or less by _any_ means. the self-synergy between it and his elks ain't nearly as powerful as the self-synergy between his basics, sure, but ... there's a million and one ways you can use either half of the ultimate to knock your opponent out of the game on the spot, and while they cover the entire range of "kinda inconsistent" to "there is a one in a trillion chance of this coming up in a match between two very specific decks," that situationality ain't much of a drawback when it's attached to goddamn _oko_
I'm sorry, wren and six ultimate is bad?!?!? What modern games have you played that that is true??? In 99% of decks he shows up in, so does LIGHTNING BOLT. that means every turn after his ultimate, you +1 w&6, pick up a fetchland, discard it and deal 3 to enemy face. And that's never counting your other board state or cards in hand!!! If you get his ult off and you don't win, it's because someone exiled your graveyard, and that's it
@@Eibarwoman How high are you? I recommend that you watch some W&6 gameplay, pros fail to stop her from popping off and subsequently lose as a result, not just amateurs.
@@ThePethrax The two are highly synergistic to put it lightly. Which probably makes for the issue of the +1 changes how the opponent will play as the ult can win the game from the synergy. The ult with an exiled graveyard is useless.
so as an opponent, if you can't kill w&6 before ultn you wait until they do, then bolt it. Now the retrace is only an occasional nuisance, instead of being oppressive. I think the point here is that Nizzahon is measuring ults based on their typical measure: that good ones you want to do, but you never get to because your opponent concedes before you can, because they are so backbreaking that they cannot be overcome in basically any board state.
Honestly I think you shouldn't have considered any of the Gideons for this list, not just the ones that fell under the restrictions you mentioned. Gideon planeswalkers just bend what it means to be a planeswalker so much as to not really align with the spirit of the video. Is Blackblade's exile ability really an ult? It always to me just felt like some utility slapped on a beatstick.
I appreciate the way you did this. In some ways, I can actually appreciate that a Planeswalker might have a less than stellar ult, since in a way, you can use that to justify not NEEDING to use it. Some Planeswalkers are all about their ultimate, and draw the most fire because of them, while you have to get them there as quickly as possible; you KNOW they are on a clock, and will be destroyed, but if that ultimate is less fearsome, maybe your opponent won't treat them like a Commander, and single-mindedly throw everything at them, even when there are better targets, so maybe your underestimated Planeswalker will get to last longer, until they decide it's still too troublesome. Not every Planeswalker needs to be about their big ender, and I'm glad you covered that.
Holy crap, I did not realise that Kasmina had such an absurdly awful ultimate. I only ever read the passive and figured "Yeah that'll go in my Superfriends deck." And yeah, this list is proof that a good ultimate isn't everything. I mean, there are cards that might even make it onto "Top 10 Vintage Cards (Minus Power 9)" here but have awful ultimates. But it's still the most fun part of any planeswalker.
Doubling season into Time Stretch, Expropriate, etc. Yeah sorry but Kasmina's ult is actually busted. Lots of extremely powerful sorceries and instants for you to cast off her buddies.
Wren and Oko I disagree on since both abilities are super good in most situations in a game. I think your looking at the flashy effect of the ult rather than the full utility. Wren is the same way since if this ult happens then the game is most likely going to end since you win in the value game and makes all your draws never a bad draw.
I might agree with Kasmina being on the list, but not as the #1 absolute worst of all. In a superfriends deck it opens up the possibility to fetch up time walk effects, board wipes, or whatever else you need at that moment. You can even use other planeswalkers who get to 8 loyalty more easily, like Dovin, Grand Arbiter, and then slam down Kasmina to ultimate right there and then. Again, not a great ultimate by any means, but not "the worst ultimate in all of Magic"
In Strix Standard I ran Kasmina in the sideboard of Emergent Ulti decks for when I faced control. Control were spamming Divide By Zero for countermagic so eventually she'd stick and eventually, she'd cast me a free Emergent Ultimatium followed by a paid for Emergent Ultimatium. Surprisingly good in that very specific situation.
Number 4 is a pretty good Wincon in livegain deck, because 100 life can trigger life gain abilities that span from "you have a 100/100" to "you opponents loose 100 life"
I wondered at first if you’d add Tibalt, Cosmic Imposter. His ult sounds pretty terrible in a vacuum. -8 loyalty to exile all graveyards and add RRR? Of course, once you take his emblem into account it actually becomes pretty strong.
I think a planeswalker "ultimate" isn't really an ultimate unless you really have to invest in getting there. Oko doesn't really have an ultimate, he ticks down 5 the turn after he comes down and doesn't even die!
I used Kasmina for a while. I usually went for Body of Research or River's Rebuke...I think...it bounced all the opponent's creatures. However, her main purpose was as a distraction. Being in blue green I usually just needed time to get to my ramp spells. Kasmina started getting targeted quickly after the second scry 2, so it was a good thing. I'd make a shownof defending her, but letting her die to an all out attack from my opponent was never a problem. So yeah...I don't think I'd put her as the worst ultimate...but she wasn't fantastic.
Retrace is a highly underrated ability. Imo, it's one of the most broken abilities in the game. Unlike other abilities that allow you to cast the spell from the grave, it will cause you to exile it after it resloves. But with Retrace, as long as you have a land and some mana, you can cast the same spell over and over. Reality Scramble is one that always helps me win in my Rashmi and Ragavan deck.
I paused at wrenn but ended up deleting a comment about how 3 of them up till that point really didn't deserve to be on. I was going to mention also that I think you forgot about the 100 life ajani for your most powerful ultimates. As that is one of the funniest busted strong ones. Then I saw #4. I'm just going to have to leave this one alone.
Kasmina's ult is a perfect example of something that's cool, but not good. The idea that I can play some other planeswalkers and pump their loyalty, then drop Kasmina and suddenly turn those existing loyalty counters into a free spell is pretty sweet, and gets me thinking about cool deck ideas. But it's not exactly surprising that that ability (and indeed Kasmina in general) haven't impacted competitive Magic at all.
I think a list of worst planeswalker ults that ranked them based on lack of synergy with the rest of their kit as well as the power level relative to their starting loyalty, mana cost, and the amount of times you have to up-tick them before you can use the ability. This is just skewed against low CMC walkers. The current list has one 2 CMC walkers, six 3 CMC walkers, one 4 CMC walkers, and two five CMC walkers, making an average CMC of 3.4. I think it's very one dimensional to judge them like this.
Dack's could actually fit really well into a deck built around Hinata. I just can't think of any format other than commander where both those cards are legal and where a Hinata deck would be viable.
Yeah, this is definitely going to be a controversial one, especially higher up. 1, 2, and 3 are pretty unanimous, but after that, there are a lot of middling Planeswalker ultimates that just don't wow. "Teferi, Master of Time" asks you to save up 7 or 8 turns of +1 and not getting hurt for 2 extra turns, "Tibault, Cosmic Imposter" has the same thing as Ashiok but exchanges exiling a hand for 3 red mana, "Vraska the Unseen's" little 1/1 assassins are a cute gimmick, but hardly difficult to deal with, "Huatli, Dinosaur Knight" takes 7 loyalty to give one creature type an Overrun without flying to trample... and etc. There are a lot to choose from in that pool.
I feel like ajanis ultimate is there only to trick timmies. It certainly tricked me. Born of the gods was my first set and by journey to nyx I was hooked. Gain 100 life. Can't be beat...... More like well I guess we draw
I've honestly never seen Kasmina before and now it's obvious why. Imo you could print her at CMC 2. Could be a cool addition to the 2 mana planeswalker club.
Um where is Jared Carthalion on this list? His ultimate is basically a worst regrowth. "Return target multicolored card from your graveyard to your hand. If that card was all colors, draw a card and create two Treasure tokens."
I would put Ajani Goldmane on this list, I think. He's one of my favorite Planeswalkers, but his Ult is pretty terrible. You have to use his +1 to gain 2 life several times, and the creature token you get, while awesome, is easily removed. On the flip side, his -1 ability is absolutely fantastic, but you simply can't use it if you're saving for the ult. I've been in a scenario where I had him at 7 loyalty, and it was better to use his -1 than to use his Ult even though he'd survive it.
I tried to build a superfriends deck in standard with kasmina, with the idea of getting storm the festival with her ult to get more planeswalkers (and broker's ascendancy) and... yea it was not really good. Maybe with the Ultimatums it would've been decent
I mean.. You can give Kasmina's Ult to an uncommin Planeswalker that can use it immediately. Kiora can use Kasmina's +2 and then ult the next turn. I think the ability is bad on Kasmina, but Kasmina is designed to have abilities that are only useful on other planeswalkers.
Speaking of powerful Planeswalkers that have underwhelming/bad ults, which Planeswalker ults do people overlook the most? Honestly, I'd put JTMS up there, as everyone is so focused on the Brainstorm/Bounce/Fateseal they don't even consider the ult basically wins the game 99% of the time.
The main problem with Oko's ult is that 9 times out of 10... why would you trade permanents around when you could just Elk them and RAISE his loyalty in the process
The whole concept of this list relies on the assumption that a "ultimate ability" should win you the game. That doesn't need to be the case. Hell, even calling it an "ultimate" is a nickname, and not it's actual name. Most of these walker's "ultimates" are a fantastic option to have in the event that their previous skill(s) are no longer cutting it. To look at these ultimates in a vacuum like this is truly a useless endeavor. Why would you separate one option on a walker and grade it solely on that option when the card has other options? Think of each ability as an "if/then" question and you'll see that most of these walkers are optimized for a wide range of scenarios.
You also missed Ajani, Sleeper Agent. His emblem is far too slow, it doesn't help you draw the creatures you need to actually make use of it, and it does nothing to help keep you alive while waiting for it to work. Unless you already have a hand full of creatures, it doesn't change the game when you're ahead and it's terrible when you're behind.
I'm surprised by this take. Ajani, Sleeper Agent seems absolutely nightmarish, specifically his ultimate, in a deck centered around proliferate and poison counters. I added him to my Atraxa commander deck for this reason. Granted, I have no idea how well he would do in non commander formats.
Maybe this needed to be 10 least flashy or immediate impact or something? The fact that the majority of the planewalkers on here are 3 mana or less makes sense that they are balanced - this list feels a bit like saying Llanowar Elves is worse than Shivan Dragon because a 5/5 flyer is better than a 1/1. Cost of a card is crucial to evaluating the power of their abilities. In the case of Planeswalkers, I think ease of using the ultimate is also important: the ones that may say "win the game" but are basically impossible to get loyalty up to are, in my opinion, far worse than ones that need only 1 or 2 loyalty to use, even if the ultimate doesn't win the game by itself.
I think putting Wrenn on this list was a missed shot. I don't think I've ever seen a game where a player has intentionally kept upticking Wrenn past 8 loyalty. Unless the player's grave is locked down (Which would also make the +1 useless), the ultimate usually leads to a scoop.
I see a lot of comments about Wrenn and Six, and I don't play the formats she's legal in, but I'm curious. Even if the ultimate can be used as one of a deck's win cons, do the decks that play this card actually have Wrenn's ultimate as their primary win con? Or is it just a nice way to close out a game that's already gone long? It definitely doesn't look like the kind of thing that could even be activated if you're behind on board, or that will win you the game if you don't already have a full yard of stuff to abuse with it.
Since it's only a 2-mana Planeswalker, you can get to the ult fairly quickly without using shenanigans like Proliferate. Regardless of how you build, it's an ult that really relies on having Wrenn and Six still on the battlefield to use their +1 each turn to fuel it. it's good synergy and design, but according to some measures of what an ult should be (based on how backbreaking many of the ones from Lorwyn and Alara blocks were), this could be a mark against it as far as power. As far as building around it, if you include Blue in your deck, you can toss in something like Time Warp, and the ult and +1 just become infinite turns for you. Even outside of something like that, you can do things like get a Lightning Bolt on each of your turns. Or a Reverberate. Not something that just crushes your opponent immediately, but something that is quite difficult to overcome.
Jund plays Wrenn, and its wincon is killing with Tarmogoyf and other beaters. Wrenn ultimate makes that plan a lot easier by letting you recur all your hand disruption and removal so you can attack. Wrenn ultimate isn't the deck's wincon, but it majorly facilitates that wincon. It's the same deal with other Wrenn decks that win by drowning opponents in value. Wrenn ultimate allows you to recur all your Unholy Heats and Prismatic Endings to pressure the opponent, which will very easily win you the game.
@@rajamicitrenti1374 That's good to know, but it doesn't really answer my question. Is getting Wrenn's ultimate going the primary goal of most decks that run her or is it more of a "nice if it happens" sort of thing?
@@chuckwagon3718 Thanks for the info! Between you and the other person who replied I think I have a better idea of how the card fits into the meta. I can certainly imagine that ultimate being even more ridiculous in eternal formats where the card pools are full of these powerful restricted spells.
@@Rupert3434 yeah, it won't win the game on the spot and instead just gives you insane consistency and reach, but the whole card is like that. All of its strength comes from the synergy between its abilities, the value it gives you, and the idiosyncracies of the format. I'm pretty sure Wrenn would be underwhelming in limited because a lot of its abilities are pretty niche, but it's still obviously a very powerful card in the context in which it's played.
Disagree on both oko and wren and six- especially considering your “in a vacuum” statement. In both cases, it’s not that the ultimates are bad as much as it is that the non-ultimate abilities are so good, you’re disincentivized from using the ultimate.
Garruk MTG 14? Perhaps a hot take, but Elspeth Suns Champion? How bout Chandra Acolyte of flame. Oh. Ob Nixilis Reignited. An emblem that makes someone take 2 damage when you draw a card. Cool and all but I mean... I'd probably rather use the -3 and gack a creature. If they don't have a creature, I probably don't need to worry about killing them by drawing my own cards and can just draw a card and lose a life.
Great list. I see people saying stuff like “well I used this ultimate, blah blah, so I can’t believe he put the card on this list.” Of course, every dog has their day. If you play enough games you will eventually do everything, but the main point of the comments is also about the likely hood of how you will use a card. I think he is spot on with his discussion and picks and he provides ample justification for his picks.
Hah, glad to see the best Planeswalker didn't make the list. Tibalt, the Fiend Blooded. But it came out of a PL deck, so that's probably the only reason it isn't #1 haha
For Ajani's the color is important- he's green-white and most decks I see like that take a lot of time to put together their super overwhelming board and really struggle with enduring actual aggression in that time. Buying yourself a bunch of turns, especially if you're against the kind of aggro that burns itself up to do right around 20-25 damage to an opponent, can be what it takes to get yourself fully situated and being too big to lose, after all.
Yes but... why doing that by using an ult from a 5 cmc PW that takes 4 turns to reach? There's plenty of similarly costed white and/or green decks that can straight up win you the game with such an ult, not just "buy you time". Look at Elspeth Tirel for example.
Oko's ultimate isn't REALLY an ultimate as you can use it on turn3 in most games. If your opponent drops a mana dork on turn2 or pretty much any enabler creature that you like why WOULDN'T you take it in exchange for a single food? I think the ultimate is broken making the card even more broken than it already is. Like seriously if opponent is not playing red and you are STEALING THEIR CREATURE how are they ever going to kill oko? I guess by playing their own oko and turning the food into a 3/3 because if oko is legal it's the only thing viable for sure. But in a world where oko is theoretically legal and other stuff is viable as well and opponent isn't playing red I don't think elking your opponents 2drop is better than stealing it. Imagine a curve (this was possible in standard) You play goose on 1 opp plays goose too You play oko on 2 and plus for food opp plays priest of the forgotten gods on 2 and passes on your turn3 do you steal the priest or elk the priest or make a 3/3 from your food? because I would 99% of the time just steal the priest and give opp a food. And you still have 3 mana left to do stuff The game is just over you have their priest, you still have 3 mana left to do stuff and they have 2 foods and a goose. If you elk the priest in this case there is a real possibility your oko actually dies to combat damage.
I have always misread kasmina that i thought she searched for any card, which would still be bad since you don't build a deck around a planeswalker ult. Only instant and sorcery makes this a huge joke
How the hell is Jace Beleren not on here? -10 to mill 20 is not good. If you’re not a mill deck it’s actively bad, and takes forever to get to even if you are.
The content and ordering on this list is bizarre. Dack's ult is a top 2 easily, and R&6 doesn't belong there at all. Dack's might actually be the worst, because it's so conditional and so hard to ever use. Kasmina's is hard to reach but having a strong on-color spell is way less of an ask.
I agree somewhat about Ajani. What I will say is that 100 life is different than 10. Maybe yoy could win but have just drawn shit cards. This is give or take about 6 cards you can draw. I'm a competitive Vintage Player with multiple Win Win's in various events under my belt. Inalso understand this video is old. I love your content anyway!
Heavily disagree with Wrenn and Six being on this list. The ult is completely game winning. Maybe not in a super flashy way, but being able to cast a spells like lightning bolt or kolagon's command, one or more times a turn, at no card disadvantage... you never lose that game and the threat of Wrenn's ultimate demands an answer and it's a big reason why the card is so strong.
This is a tell me you've never play legacy without telling me. Wrenns ult is game breaking.
I feel like he evaluated Wrenn as if you always had to choose between keeping Wrenn in play to keep using the +1 and getting the emblem. Like, nothing in the game rules prohibit you from ticking up your Planeswalker past their ultimate before using it...it's just that Wrenn is arguably one of the few ones where it actually makes sense a lot of the time.
@@gcleeman it's decent even in Vintage... I've seen a few vintage queues or leagues in MTGO where Wrenn locks the game down as long as possible with wasteland, but then serves as an alt win condition by recurring Time Walk for infinite turns.
A card that serves as a good lock piece AND wins the game in a combo for 2 mana is not bad even for vintage.
Honestly it's one of his worst takes in memory.
Kasmina by herself is the suck. But combined with Narset and/or Saheeli she gets pretty good. I built around anoyher planeswalker with a terrible ultimate: Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge
Yeah he’s obviously never ultimated Wrenn himself, games don’t last long when you can cast your best spells over and over again
But... Everyone uses Wrenn's ability. It's always used to end the game by capping off the card advantage generated by the card in other phases. It's used to generate the last lightning bolt you need to finish the game.
Yeah, it doesn't really win the game, but combined with the value you got from Wrenn bringing him to 7 it might just. Hard disagree on that placement.
@@jonaderjona5805 There are plenty of decks in Modern that have used Time Warp as an infinite turns combo with Wren’s ultimate to straight-up win the game.
I've never really thought of Oko's last ability as an ult since it's so easy for him to build to it multiple times in a game, it's just another one of the annoying, super synergistic things he can do
Gideon's Ultimate is good. Gideon has no minus ability, so if your opponent doesn't attack him, he will exile their permanents time after time, basically for free. It's often enough of a reason for the opponent to make disadvantageous attacks just to lower Gideon's loyalty.
Good point. It might not be used often, but just the fact that it exists, it can influence the opponent's decision making.
It's a sort of "threat of activation".
It is not underpowered specifically on Gideon because he's always a creature on your turn and can also attack in addition to using the ability. On a standard planeswalker, it's a pretty bad ultimate. One of the Chandras can deal 10 to a player and all their creatures for - 7, which is so much better in almost every scenario.
@@Pedun42 not just a creature, a 3 mana 4/4 unkillable creature
Besides, Gideon is used in aggressive decks especially, so the opponent often times doesn't want to attack at all. I've seen Gideon use his Ultimate ability several times per game, and that's pretty impressive for a 3-mana Planeswalker.
To be fair though, I'd argue that this isn't an Ultimate ability at all, but rather a "normal" minus ability.
Unsure if that really is an ultimate. Never really looked at it like that when using him. But ur def right about the opponent making disadvantaged attacks to get him off the board too. Soemtimes they ignore him more often then they should too and find them self in a bad spot after a turn or two. One of my fave planeswalkers ever. I used to bait ppl with him and hit them with Gideons triumph. Sometimes id let him die and use brought back before the turn is over. So many ways to protect gideon during war of the spark
Dack faden? the 3 mana sorcery that gains control of target artifact? What's he doing on a list about planeswalkers?
Please read the titel of the video. Only ultimates are rated here. For this list nobody cares about his artifact steal
Come on Arno, it's a joke buddy. Try figure it out
@@WiiTara it's called a joke my dude
Dack Fayden’s +1 + Narset/Hullbreacher is a pretty cute combo in Legacy though
Wait... Kasmina?
Sure it's janky and all, but you have a ton of walkers that come into play with plenty of loyalty and others that spend their life using + abilites.
she's a combo-ish card..... you'll run her alongside walkers like Sarkhan the mad or Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner, and then use that utilimate to tutor up ridiculously big spells.
It's very, very janky, sure, but also very interesting and generates some crazy moments. I love it.
This has already been noted by others, but Wrenn ultimate doesn’t belong on this list. Retrace doesn’t look like that big of a deal at first glance and certainly isn’t the most powerful game winning ultimate; however, the context matters here.
The big piece of context is actually something you mentioned which is their +1. Pulling a land from your graveyard is very powerful but naturally scales down as the game progresses. This often means you end up with a hand full of lands and no action, but Wrennblem allows you to cash all of those in for the best spells in magic. The second piece of critical context is costing 2 mana. This has a few tack-on effects: Ultimate is easier to achieve in a game since Wrenn comes down early, this also means it’s more realistic to delay the emblem by a turn to keep Wrenn around, and the cost means folks usually have 4 copies which makes dropping a second Wrenn realistic and incredibly potent. Wrenn ultimate certainly does not belong on a list of worst ultimates.
I straight-up bellied laugh when Oko showed up. He very much deserves to be on this list, but associating him with the word "worst" in any context is bonkers hilarious 😂
i received psychic damage when you said “generate etherium tokens”
Tezzeret, Crypto Bro
For having such a crappy ultimate, I sure have won (and lost) tons of games with Wrenn and Sixes ultimate. How is turning every land in your hand for the rest of the game into the best spell in your graveyard BAD, in literally any way, shape, or form?
Now, I would buy the argument that Wrenn is one of the few (good) planeswalkers that you don't necessarily ultimate as soon as you can because of how much synergy there is between the emblem and the +1, but if you start your turn with a Wrenn at 8 loyalty, unless you are literally going to lose the game unless you return a Boseiju or whatever to your hand, you are getting that emblem approximately 100% of the time.
I think the thing here is the perception of what a good ultimate is. Generally people expect the ultimate to be such a strong "I win" button without needing to build around it that you'll likely never get to; your opponent will concede before passing the turn to you where you would be able to use it.
Wrenn and Six's can be pretty much game ending if you can use it to retrace extra turn effects in conjunction with the +1, but otherwise, it's just an advantage, and one that if you are on the ropes might not even save you. And if measuring it on the scale I mentioned, just needed to keep the Walker on the field is a knock against the ultimate as well. It creates a situation where it can actually be advantageous to let your opponent Ult with Wrenn and Six, the hit it with a Bolt or Shock to kill it, and suddenly that Ult loses a lot of fuel.
What's Kasmina doing at #1? "Take two turns after this one" is fairly good, isn't it?
Or draw your entire deck
Hey nizzahon, usually I really like your videos and also your subjective ones but this one felt a bit odd, throughout the video it wasn't really clear what the system for ranking the cards was, was it just the strength of the effect in a vacuum or did the context of the whole card play into it? For example dovin only draws 3 cards but his plus effect also has the potential to put a huge amount of loyalty onto him so it's 3 cards for relatively cheap, he is still not a great planeswalker but this definitely plays into it, the confusion got especially big for me at gideon blackblade, yes just exiling a nonland permanent is a very weak ultimate when looked at in a vacuum but on that card it was extremely good, especially during his time in standard, he is essentially a 3 mana 4/4 aggressive creature which you mentioned but he had the major upside of ticking up constantly as he doesn't have a minus ability to a removal spell against your opponents board stabilizer against decks that can go bigger than the white weeny he was played in, so in the context of the card his ultimate was very strong and pretty relevant, I still always look forward to your videos but wanted to give some feedback on this
Wren is one of the most played and feared walker in moderen and it is because of his ultimate. Op will spend vast resources to awnser him or try to delay the ultimate even if by 1 turn.
The ultimate is good but it isn't why they're feared. They're feared for their ability to invalidate x/1s, fix mana, and generate card advantage by recurring fetchlands.
Is the ability judged in context or not? Because it looks like we're changing the rules for each walker. Gideon Blackblades ability is weak, in a vacuum, but is incredibly useful and easy to reach (the "significant work" of sticking on board for 2-3 turns and remembering to plus). Kasmina's ultimate, on the other hand, is incredibly strong, but seems difficult to reach. Might as well have put Nicol Bolas, the Arisen on here, since you'll probably never ultimate him either.
Super fun list that clearly garners lots of opinions. Worth noting with Oko, he can use his ultimate _next turn_ and still be left with 1 loyalty, thanks to the +2. This is rare for Planeswalkers whose ultimate is usually power-indexed to 2-3 turns away.
In Dovin's partial defense, his ultimate synergizes with his +1, so that in a go-wide deck in theory he could use his very underwhelming ultimate the very next turn and maybe even stick around.
Yup, I've got a Dovin Historic Brawl deck and it's honestly quite common for me to ult him the turn after he comes down, while still keeping him around.
Oh yeah, I run it in my Kykar flying aggro deck and I frequently get him to double digit loyalty if I have a lot of Birds/Spirits/Thopters. If his "ultimate" was more like a traditional ultimate he'd be busted in EDH. But being able to -7 and get a bunch of quality gas in your hand is "just right" for him, it's enough of a reward to make pumping his loyalty worth it, while not being so strong that it's too easy to get to. Unique card but very fair and well designed card IMO.
I don't agree with wrenn being on this list, in modern (where wrenn is most played since it doesn't see so much commander play and it's banned in legacy) when it ults you win the game, you just need a single bolt or a single counterspell in gy and you are already playing many lands, not counting the ones that it gives back to you wrenn itself
I think you didn't measure the PW's ultimate in regards to their mana cost. Cuz uh Oko's ult was used pretty often to steal key cards and is just as much of a reason he was broken as his other two abilities.
Oko's ult was actually quite good in that standard format.
I feel like, with at least half of these, the ults actually feel appropriately designed given the context of the rest of the card, even if they’re bad in a vacuum. Like Dovin and especially Lolth, they have abilities that can, at least in theory, on the first turn they come down quickly raise their loyalty way past the amount needed to ult. So they *could* ult either every turn thereafter or every other turn, so the ult had to be designed in a way where it’s not utterly back breaking for your opponent if you activate them multiple times in a game
Kasmina has a good ultimate, and fairly applied. The question is whether or not you have good spells in your deck.
Wrenn and Six’s ultimate does combo with extra turn spells. Wrenn’s plus keeps getting the land you need back to take infinite turns.
About Dack you said that most of the time when you target a permanent you are gonna kill it anyway, however when you for example target a land with hydroblast or pyroblast you are just gonna steal it since these spells cant kill it, same goes for non blue, non red permanents.
You can also steal any creature with fatal push for example.
Any spell that can only target permanents opponents control also fizzle after you gained control of them.
I love that I've used almost all of these ultimates to great effect. Sometimes you just need to exile the one thing with Giddeon or cast lightning bolt over and over with Wrenn and Six. Literally an hour ago I used Dovin's ultimate to go from a slightly-ahead stalemate to winning.
He did say spooky top tens and these ultimates are straight up terrifying.
You should take into consideration that most of these ultimates are used after they go 1 loyality above the ultimate. This is especially true with gideon blackblade as it's often used against a control deck as a sideboard card from a white aggro deck. Usually it's the only thing left in the board while your other stuff is forcing a boardwipe and it easily reaches 7-10 loyality before your opponent dies as your other stuff gets traded for life gaining effects like absorb. And then if they drop a teferi and plus you can just minus it out
It forces them to minus the Teferi. No one would plus into blackblade ultimate (right?)
He specifically mentions this when talking about Gideon. He says if you use it when you can, it's just a 1 for 1 trade, so to get any real value, you have to get him to 7 loyalty anyway.
@@corey2232 But getting gideon into 7 loyality isn't hard. He doesn't have a minus ability he has basically a "free" loyality ability compared to other gideons and the +1.
And it's not REALLY a 1for1 trade because the card has done some serious work before using that ult. and using 3 mana sorcery to exile a nonland permanent isn't that bad of a trade either
@@boopmcdoop7841 if you have a board and they need a second boardwipe. I've seen more desperate stuff than plussing tef into a blackblade ultimate
@@irou95 It's still 3 activations and then a 4th turn to then use the ult while keeping him at 1 loyalty. I'm just pointing out what was said in the video, and it's still a 1 for 1 trade if you activate at 6, even if you did damage with him prior.
Losing a planeswalker to exile 1 permanent is not a great ult
Dakkon, Shadow Slayer: 6 loyalty to put an artifact from your hand or graveyard onto the battlefield
I find Oko’s ultimate to be pretty decent in Commander. A LOT of strong Commanders out there have amazing abilities and low stats. Trading a Food for your opponent’s Commander is amazing. And if the Commander is too big to steal, meh, make it an Elk like usual
I think it's usually better to +1 and turn it into an elk, than spend 5 to steal it.
Your deck likely doesn't synergise with their commander, and turning it into an elk is usually crippling enough. And having 6 more health on Oko makes you more likely to do it again.
The reason Oko is banned across pretty much all 1v1 formats is that he punishes your opponent for playing big creatures, small creatures, and no creatures. Big creatures he can elk into 3/3s. Against no creatures he can steadily generate an army of 3/3s while gaining absurd amounts of loyalty. But I think there is something to be said for Oko's ult allowing him to deal with multiple small creatures. Trading your food for your opponent's best small creature often allowed you to gain some insane advantage off snagging a resource and forcing them to make some unfavorable attacks to deal with him. His ult made going wide with smaller creatures less effective and really rounded out his kit to the point of there being no real counterplay. I think it deserves a bit more credit.
For kasmina can you cast a blue instant or sorcery and get a time walk guaranteed for 8 loyalty because that seems rather good
I really think that Oko's ultimate was designed as if Oko's elking ability lasted until the end of your next turn.
It makes more sense that you'd elk their strongest creature, steal it with the food you've been making and at the end have the strongest creature in its original state.
Why on God's green earth would you want an elk on your board for 6 loyalty?
similarly, why did they make the transformation permanent? D:D :
@@marcoottina654 that's exactly what he just said my bruh
That's.... the wrong play pattern. You just trade some food for whatever bomb they drop.
@@boopmcdoop7841 said bomb must be 3 power or less though, which is conveniently the power of an elk.
I'd imagine you'd wanna make their bomb qualify for the trade before making the most of it yourself but Oko's +1 doesn't makr that work
i mean, what makes oko so powerful are the "tricks" you can do with his abilities. like, making food and turning your opponent's things into 3/3s sound underwhelming at best, just a way to dump excess mana into your life total, add some fuel to food synergies, beef up your weenies ( to an upper limit ), or knock some stats off of big creatures ... but then you realize you can also turn your opponent's mana dork or _rock_ into a 3/3 vanilla, or do the same with _any_ of their creatures or artifacts that facilitates their game plan through its text box, or do the same to _all that food_ to pump out your own 3/3 every other turn ... yeah, oko is just kinda the gift that keeps on giving, where even when you think you've figured out all the possible ways you could apply his basics, someone hits you with yet another interaction you'd never seen before
meanwhile, his ultimate is a donate effect that also swipes a creature that has 3 power or less by _any_ means. the self-synergy between it and his elks ain't nearly as powerful as the self-synergy between his basics, sure, but ... there's a million and one ways you can use either half of the ultimate to knock your opponent out of the game on the spot, and while they cover the entire range of "kinda inconsistent" to "there is a one in a trillion chance of this coming up in a match between two very specific decks," that situationality ain't much of a drawback when it's attached to goddamn _oko_
Yeah i saw a game last night in commander where my buddy ulted wrenn and six and took infinte turns. So i would say im the right deck its super good
I'm sorry, wren and six ultimate is bad?!?!? What modern games have you played that that is true??? In 99% of decks he shows up in, so does LIGHTNING BOLT. that means every turn after his ultimate, you +1 w&6, pick up a fetchland, discard it and deal 3 to enemy face. And that's never counting your other board state or cards in hand!!! If you get his ult off and you don't win, it's because someone exiled your graveyard, and that's it
It's the +1 is so good in a vacuum in comparison that the ult is probably your #2 best choice when available in many cases.
@@Eibarwoman the +1 gives value, and feeds the ult after it goes off. The ult itself ends games by turning "dead" land draws into actual spells.
@@Eibarwoman How high are you? I recommend that you watch some W&6 gameplay, pros fail to stop her from popping off and subsequently lose as a result, not just amateurs.
@@ThePethrax The two are highly synergistic to put it lightly. Which probably makes for the issue of the +1 changes how the opponent will play as the ult can win the game from the synergy. The ult with an exiled graveyard is useless.
so as an opponent, if you can't kill w&6 before ultn you wait until they do, then bolt it. Now the retrace is only an occasional nuisance, instead of being oppressive.
I think the point here is that Nizzahon is measuring ults based on their typical measure: that good ones you want to do, but you never get to because your opponent concedes before you can, because they are so backbreaking that they cannot be overcome in basically any board state.
Honestly I think you shouldn't have considered any of the Gideons for this list, not just the ones that fell under the restrictions you mentioned. Gideon planeswalkers just bend what it means to be a planeswalker so much as to not really align with the spirit of the video. Is Blackblade's exile ability really an ult? It always to me just felt like some utility slapped on a beatstick.
I appreciate the way you did this. In some ways, I can actually appreciate that a Planeswalker might have a less than stellar ult, since in a way, you can use that to justify not NEEDING to use it. Some Planeswalkers are all about their ultimate, and draw the most fire because of them, while you have to get them there as quickly as possible; you KNOW they are on a clock, and will be destroyed, but if that ultimate is less fearsome, maybe your opponent won't treat them like a Commander, and single-mindedly throw everything at them, even when there are better targets, so maybe your underestimated Planeswalker will get to last longer, until they decide it's still too troublesome. Not every Planeswalker needs to be about their big ender, and I'm glad you covered that.
I feel like I've lost to the Loth ultimate 40 plus times usually blood on the snow into a stupid ass eye twitch. But sometimes spiders.
How about top ten keyword abilities that have only been used for one set.
Holy crap, I did not realise that Kasmina had such an absurdly awful ultimate. I only ever read the passive and figured "Yeah that'll go in my Superfriends deck." And yeah, this list is proof that a good ultimate isn't everything. I mean, there are cards that might even make it onto "Top 10 Vintage Cards (Minus Power 9)" here but have awful ultimates. But it's still the most fun part of any planeswalker.
Her ultimate won me many Games in Superfriends with high loyalty Planeswalkers instantly being able to cast ur best soells
Doubling season into Time Stretch, Expropriate, etc. Yeah sorry but Kasmina's ult is actually busted. Lots of extremely powerful sorceries and instants for you to cast off her buddies.
Wren and Oko I disagree on since both abilities are super good in most situations in a game. I think your looking at the flashy effect of the ult rather than the full utility. Wren is the same way since if this ult happens then the game is most likely going to end since you win in the value game and makes all your draws never a bad draw.
Not to mention Oko's ult was used quite often and it was devastating. He'd regularly -5 on the 2nd turn out and just steal your opponent's best thing.
I might agree with Kasmina being on the list, but not as the #1 absolute worst of all. In a superfriends deck it opens up the possibility to fetch up time walk effects, board wipes, or whatever else you need at that moment. You can even use other planeswalkers who get to 8 loyalty more easily, like Dovin, Grand Arbiter, and then slam down Kasmina to ultimate right there and then.
Again, not a great ultimate by any means, but not "the worst ultimate in all of Magic"
In Strix Standard I ran Kasmina in the sideboard of Emergent Ulti decks for when I faced control. Control were spamming Divide By Zero for countermagic so eventually she'd stick and eventually, she'd cast me a free Emergent Ultimatium followed by a paid for Emergent Ultimatium. Surprisingly good in that very specific situation.
Number 4 is a pretty good Wincon in livegain deck, because 100 life can trigger life gain abilities that span from "you have a 100/100" to "you opponents loose 100 life"
I wondered at first if you’d add Tibalt, Cosmic Imposter. His ult sounds pretty terrible in a vacuum. -8 loyalty to exile all graveyards and add RRR? Of course, once you take his emblem into account it actually becomes pretty strong.
I can see using Kasmina's ult to cast Expropriate or some other game breaking blue spell in Commander.
I honestly like kasminas ultimate the most on this list and used it often
I think a planeswalker "ultimate" isn't really an ultimate unless you really have to invest in getting there. Oko doesn't really have an ultimate, he ticks down 5 the turn after he comes down and doesn't even die!
Won with Kasmina, multiple times tutor up Koma, Alrund's Epiphany or Body of Research. just need small blockers to get to her ultimate.
The other two are fine, but how are you tutoring up Koma with her? Kasmina only grabs instants/sorceries.
@@hyousai oh right 😁 been a while I think I just cast Koma normally.
I used Kasmina for a while. I usually went for Body of Research or River's Rebuke...I think...it bounced all the opponent's creatures. However, her main purpose was as a distraction. Being in blue green I usually just needed time to get to my ramp spells. Kasmina started getting targeted quickly after the second scry 2, so it was a good thing. I'd make a shownof defending her, but letting her die to an all out attack from my opponent was never a problem. So yeah...I don't think I'd put her as the worst ultimate...but she wasn't fantastic.
Retrace is a highly underrated ability. Imo, it's one of the most broken abilities in the game. Unlike other abilities that allow you to cast the spell from the grave, it will cause you to exile it after it resloves. But with Retrace, as long as you have a land and some mana, you can cast the same spell over and over. Reality Scramble is one that always helps me win in my Rashmi and Ragavan deck.
I paused at wrenn but ended up deleting a comment about how 3 of them up till that point really didn't deserve to be on. I was going to mention also that I think you forgot about the 100 life ajani for your most powerful ultimates. As that is one of the funniest busted strong ones. Then I saw #4. I'm just going to have to leave this one alone.
Kasmina's ult is a perfect example of something that's cool, but not good. The idea that I can play some other planeswalkers and pump their loyalty, then drop Kasmina and suddenly turn those existing loyalty counters into a free spell is pretty sweet, and gets me thinking about cool deck ideas. But it's not exactly surprising that that ability (and indeed Kasmina in general) haven't impacted competitive Magic at all.
I think a list of worst planeswalker ults that ranked them based on lack of synergy with the rest of their kit as well as the power level relative to their starting loyalty, mana cost, and the amount of times you have to up-tick them before you can use the ability. This is just skewed against low CMC walkers. The current list has one 2 CMC walkers, six 3 CMC walkers, one 4 CMC walkers, and two five CMC walkers, making an average CMC of 3.4. I think it's very one dimensional to judge them like this.
Kasmina's ultimate is for sure expensive, but tutoring up and casting enter the infinite seems pretty game-winning to me
or emergent ultimatum, etc
Dack's could actually fit really well into a deck built around Hinata. I just can't think of any format other than commander where both those cards are legal and where a Hinata deck would be viable.
Yeah, this is definitely going to be a controversial one, especially higher up. 1, 2, and 3 are pretty unanimous, but after that, there are a lot of middling Planeswalker ultimates that just don't wow. "Teferi, Master of Time" asks you to save up 7 or 8 turns of +1 and not getting hurt for 2 extra turns, "Tibault, Cosmic Imposter" has the same thing as Ashiok but exchanges exiling a hand for 3 red mana, "Vraska the Unseen's" little 1/1 assassins are a cute gimmick, but hardly difficult to deal with, "Huatli, Dinosaur Knight" takes 7 loyalty to give one creature type an Overrun without flying to trample... and etc. There are a lot to choose from in that pool.
I feel like ajanis ultimate is there only to trick timmies. It certainly tricked me. Born of the gods was my first set and by journey to nyx I was hooked. Gain 100 life. Can't be beat...... More like well I guess we draw
I've honestly never seen Kasmina before and now it's obvious why.
Imo you could print her at CMC 2. Could be a cool addition to the 2 mana planeswalker club.
Also would work better for her first ability if people want to build around it, coming in before other walkers on your turn.
Jace Beleren milling a player 20 cards is pretty underwhelming, and generally won't win the game, except maybe in limited / cube.
Um where is Jared Carthalion on this list? His ultimate is basically a worst regrowth. "Return target multicolored card from your graveyard to your hand. If that card was all colors, draw a card and create two Treasure tokens."
I would put Ajani Goldmane on this list, I think. He's one of my favorite Planeswalkers, but his Ult is pretty terrible. You have to use his +1 to gain 2 life several times, and the creature token you get, while awesome, is easily removed. On the flip side, his -1 ability is absolutely fantastic, but you simply can't use it if you're saving for the ult. I've been in a scenario where I had him at 7 loyalty, and it was better to use his -1 than to use his Ult even though he'd survive it.
I tried to build a superfriends deck in standard with kasmina, with the idea of getting storm the festival with her ult to get more planeswalkers (and broker's ascendancy) and... yea it was not really good. Maybe with the Ultimatums it would've been decent
I mean.. You can give Kasmina's Ult to an uncommin Planeswalker that can use it immediately. Kiora can use Kasmina's +2 and then ult the next turn. I think the ability is bad on Kasmina, but Kasmina is designed to have abilities that are only useful on other planeswalkers.
Speaking of powerful Planeswalkers that have underwhelming/bad ults, which Planeswalker ults do people overlook the most?
Honestly, I'd put JTMS up there, as everyone is so focused on the Brainstorm/Bounce/Fateseal they don't even consider the ult basically wins the game 99% of the time.
Your #1 is fun with Body of Research and Pest Summoning 😁
You're missing the episode number in the title.
Honestly in the grand scheme of things, BEING A FUCKING SLEEPER AGENT THE WHOLE TIME is a banger of an ult
The main problem with Oko's ult is that 9 times out of 10... why would you trade permanents around when you could just Elk them and RAISE his loyalty in the process
Oko can use his -5 on the second turn, doesn't really feel like an ultimate
The whole concept of this list relies on the assumption that a "ultimate ability" should win you the game. That doesn't need to be the case. Hell, even calling it an "ultimate" is a nickname, and not it's actual name.
Most of these walker's "ultimates" are a fantastic option to have in the event that their previous skill(s) are no longer cutting it. To look at these ultimates in a vacuum like this is truly a useless endeavor. Why would you separate one option on a walker and grade it solely on that option when the card has other options?
Think of each ability as an "if/then" question and you'll see that most of these walkers are optimized for a wide range of scenarios.
How does Huatli, Dinosaur Knight avoid getting onto bad planeswalkers lists?
Excluding planeswalker deck walkers
Ajanis ultimate might not be strong but it is very cool
Wrenn and six definitely should not be on this list, wins a ton of games in modern actually
You also missed Ajani, Sleeper Agent. His emblem is far too slow, it doesn't help you draw the creatures you need to actually make use of it, and it does nothing to help keep you alive while waiting for it to work. Unless you already have a hand full of creatures, it doesn't change the game when you're ahead and it's terrible when you're behind.
I'm surprised by this take. Ajani, Sleeper Agent seems absolutely nightmarish, specifically his ultimate, in a deck centered around proliferate and poison counters.
I added him to my Atraxa commander deck for this reason. Granted, I have no idea how well he would do in non commander formats.
I don't play Commander.
Hey nizza got an idea, what's your favorite names of cards in magic
For Dack, it may not be great, but combat tricks do trigger the emblem and they can have enough use without it
Maybe this needed to be 10 least flashy or immediate impact or something?
The fact that the majority of the planewalkers on here are 3 mana or less makes sense that they are balanced - this list feels a bit like saying Llanowar Elves is worse than Shivan Dragon because a 5/5 flyer is better than a 1/1. Cost of a card is crucial to evaluating the power of their abilities. In the case of Planeswalkers, I think ease of using the ultimate is also important: the ones that may say "win the game" but are basically impossible to get loyalty up to are, in my opinion, far worse than ones that need only 1 or 2 loyalty to use, even if the ultimate doesn't win the game by itself.
Wreen and Six a bad ulti ? really ?
oko's ult is fairly cheap, easy to get, and synergizes with the +2
its weird how both okos and wrenn and six ultimates are "bad" but very good in the context of their respective formats.
I have a commander deck with Saheeli, the Gifted as the commander and my playgroup knows her ultimate is not a threat
Kasmina played during the time of Elrund's Epiphany in standard until it was banned.
I think putting Wrenn on this list was a missed shot. I don't think I've ever seen a game where a player has intentionally kept upticking Wrenn past 8 loyalty. Unless the player's grave is locked down (Which would also make the +1 useless), the ultimate usually leads to a scoop.
You should do something like top ten goblins not used in goblin decks
i was thinking, he won't put oko on here cause that would be kinda dumb since it's harldy an ultimate. But here we are
Kasmina ult into Emergent Ultimatum? This is oddly familiar to the deck i hit mythic with in historic constructed last year.
I see a lot of comments about Wrenn and Six, and I don't play the formats she's legal in, but I'm curious. Even if the ultimate can be used as one of a deck's win cons, do the decks that play this card actually have Wrenn's ultimate as their primary win con? Or is it just a nice way to close out a game that's already gone long?
It definitely doesn't look like the kind of thing that could even be activated if you're behind on board, or that will win you the game if you don't already have a full yard of stuff to abuse with it.
Since it's only a 2-mana Planeswalker, you can get to the ult fairly quickly without using shenanigans like Proliferate.
Regardless of how you build, it's an ult that really relies on having Wrenn and Six still on the battlefield to use their +1 each turn to fuel it. it's good synergy and design, but according to some measures of what an ult should be (based on how backbreaking many of the ones from Lorwyn and Alara blocks were), this could be a mark against it as far as power.
As far as building around it, if you include Blue in your deck, you can toss in something like Time Warp, and the ult and +1 just become infinite turns for you. Even outside of something like that, you can do things like get a Lightning Bolt on each of your turns. Or a Reverberate. Not something that just crushes your opponent immediately, but something that is quite difficult to overcome.
Jund plays Wrenn, and its wincon is killing with Tarmogoyf and other beaters. Wrenn ultimate makes that plan a lot easier by letting you recur all your hand disruption and removal so you can attack. Wrenn ultimate isn't the deck's wincon, but it majorly facilitates that wincon. It's the same deal with other Wrenn decks that win by drowning opponents in value. Wrenn ultimate allows you to recur all your Unholy Heats and Prismatic Endings to pressure the opponent, which will very easily win you the game.
@@rajamicitrenti1374 That's good to know, but it doesn't really answer my question. Is getting Wrenn's ultimate going the primary goal of most decks that run her or is it more of a "nice if it happens" sort of thing?
@@chuckwagon3718 Thanks for the info!
Between you and the other person who replied I think I have a better idea of how the card fits into the meta. I can certainly imagine that ultimate being even more ridiculous in eternal formats where the card pools are full of these powerful restricted spells.
@@Rupert3434 yeah, it won't win the game on the spot and instead just gives you insane consistency and reach, but the whole card is like that. All of its strength comes from the synergy between its abilities, the value it gives you, and the idiosyncracies of the format. I'm pretty sure Wrenn would be underwhelming in limited because a lot of its abilities are pretty niche, but it's still obviously a very powerful card in the context in which it's played.
Disagree on both oko and wren and six- especially considering your “in a vacuum” statement. In both cases, it’s not that the ultimates are bad as much as it is that the non-ultimate abilities are so good, you’re disincentivized from using the ultimate.
Garruk MTG 14? Perhaps a hot take, but Elspeth Suns Champion? How bout Chandra Acolyte of flame.
Oh. Ob Nixilis Reignited. An emblem that makes someone take 2 damage when you draw a card. Cool and all but I mean... I'd probably rather use the -3 and gack a creature. If they don't have a creature, I probably don't need to worry about killing them by drawing my own cards and can just draw a card and lose a life.
Yeah planeswalker decks walkers are bad. Its almost like they don't belong in any top 10 worst planeswalkers list at all.
Great list. I see people saying stuff like “well I used this ultimate, blah blah, so I can’t believe he put the card on this list.” Of course, every dog has their day. If you play enough games you will eventually do everything, but the main point of the comments is also about the likely hood of how you will use a card. I think he is spot on with his discussion and picks and he provides ample justification for his picks.
may i suggest a top 10 for the starter decks planeswalkers?
Pretty sure all planeswalker deck planeswalkers have a total combined score of 0 under his system.
Hah, glad to see the best Planeswalker didn't make the list. Tibalt, the Fiend Blooded. But it came out of a PL deck, so that's probably the only reason it isn't #1 haha
2:55 me, who build a whole commander to use rowan's ultimate 999 times: 👀
For Ajani's the color is important- he's green-white and most decks I see like that take a lot of time to put together their super overwhelming board and really struggle with enduring actual aggression in that time. Buying yourself a bunch of turns, especially if you're against the kind of aggro that burns itself up to do right around 20-25 damage to an opponent, can be what it takes to get yourself fully situated and being too big to lose, after all.
Yes but... why doing that by using an ult from a 5 cmc PW that takes 4 turns to reach? There's plenty of similarly costed white and/or green decks that can straight up win you the game with such an ult, not just "buy you time". Look at Elspeth Tirel for example.
Oko's ultimate isn't REALLY an ultimate as you can use it on turn3 in most games. If your opponent drops a mana dork on turn2 or pretty much any enabler creature that you like why WOULDN'T you take it in exchange for a single food? I think the ultimate is broken making the card even more broken than it already is. Like seriously if opponent is not playing red and you are STEALING THEIR CREATURE how are they ever going to kill oko? I guess by playing their own oko and turning the food into a 3/3 because if oko is legal it's the only thing viable for sure.
But in a world where oko is theoretically legal and other stuff is viable as well and opponent isn't playing red I don't think elking your opponents 2drop is better than stealing it.
Imagine a curve (this was possible in standard)
You play goose on 1
opp plays goose too
You play oko on 2 and plus for food
opp plays priest of the forgotten gods on 2 and passes
on your turn3 do you steal the priest or elk the priest or make a 3/3 from your food?
because I would 99% of the time just steal the priest and give opp a food. And you still have 3 mana left to do stuff
The game is just over you have their priest, you still have 3 mana left to do stuff and they have 2 foods and a goose. If you elk the priest in this case there is a real possibility your oko actually dies to combat damage.
I have always misread kasmina that i thought she searched for any card, which would still be bad since you don't build a deck around a planeswalker ult. Only instant and sorcery makes this a huge joke
How the hell is Jace Beleren not on here? -10 to mill 20 is not good. If you’re not a mill deck it’s actively bad, and takes forever to get to even if you are.
The content and ordering on this list is bizarre. Dack's ult is a top 2 easily, and R&6 doesn't belong there at all. Dack's might actually be the worst, because it's so conditional and so hard to ever use. Kasmina's is hard to reach but having a strong on-color spell is way less of an ask.
Thank goodness Oko doesn't have a better ultimate. It's powerful enough with just its first two loyalty abilities.
I agree somewhat about Ajani. What I will say is that 100 life is different than 10. Maybe yoy could win but have just drawn shit cards. This is give or take about 6 cards you can draw. I'm a competitive Vintage Player with multiple Win Win's in various events under my belt. Inalso understand this video is old. I love your content anyway!
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