Ad Hominem Attacks On Bible Authors | Jonathan - AZ | Talk Heathen 04.09
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- Опубліковано 3 бер 2020
- Talk Heathen 04.09 for March 1, 2020 with Eric Murphy & Phil Ferguson.
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Jonathan is an absolutely wonderful caller. He's polite, he's good at listening, and he's willing to joke and enjoy the conversation he's having.
I need more Jonathan. Talk Heathen! You must make us a playlist made entirely of Jonathan's calls!
Sean Hennessy
Wow, thank you! 🤗
I am in my 70s, I think we had many kids that today would be "on the spectrum" but were simply undiagnosed.
Agreed, The Baby Boomer generation has disturbingly high rate of toxic personality disorders among their demographic.
Top marks to Phil's logic and Jon's honesty
"What did Jesus sacrifice?" Brilliant!
A weekend.
MrStripeyDog the romans crucified tons of people...what made Jesus’ special?
His body and blood. It's really quite uncomplicated.
In the words of Matt Dillahunty, "At least when Elvis died for my sins, he stayed dead."
gspendlove so far as you know 🤗
At least the caller was honest and was willing to have a real, well-meaning conversation, even if I don't agree with what he's saying. I'll take and be grateful that someone like that exists.
NoahofWill
Thank you. 👍🏻
NoahofWill I think he was a better caller then most. And he didn’t sound the slightest bit hostile 👍
Jim Fixx
Thanks, bro. 👍🏻
Sam Bacon
Wow, thank you! 👍🏻
Sam Bacon
Why you gotta shatter my dreams? 😆
Jonathan is one of the best callers I have heard....I don't agree with him but as Voltaire was supposed to have said, I will defend with my life your right to say it....
Julian Marsh
Thank you. 👍🏻
Agreed super nice brave great caller
I am a big supporter of freedom of speech but often, I'm disappointed and some other times I really don't feel like I fully support or would defend *SOME people's* opinions because it actually is trying to hurt other's or deny their human rights (examples: racism, hate speech, hatred for women or atheists). That's the grey zone for me where I don't really feel like supporting _THAT_ (much/type) freedom of speech whenever one of those callers who are straight up promoting hate speech and ignorance.
Also when they do start spewing hate speech they're at least outing themselves as the hateful bigots they are and it's somewhat useful to understand how they think and even tho it's very unpleasant to hear it gives us insight into how this bigotry is formed and hopefully give us tools to attempt solving the bigotry/hatred out there.
That all being said. I support freedom of speech and Jonathan here is a good example of why to support somebody's space to express themselves even if we don't agree with them, because look how productive and interesting it can be.
Much more exciting than an echochamber could ever be.
We need more Jonathans not only so we to learn from him but people on his side can learn how to have a non abusive conversation with atheists.
Atleast he didn't go down any rabbit trail and was genuinely honest about his thoughts (even though i personally disagree)
Yeah I'm good if people say that a certain group of people should die I wouldn't spend anything of mine to defend them saying it.
"Jesus sacrificed himself, but is still alive."
So, he did not sacrifice himself?
Well, it depends. First you need to define "sacrifice", "alive" and "himself". After that we can start the discussion.
He did a weekend in hell. Not a big deal, lots of people go to Daytona Beach in July. :)
isnt that suicide which is a sin so he should be in hell
@IVAN KRAWEC and on top of that it was a joke. Kinda like Christianity. :)
@MrStripeyDog That makes no sense but what you need to believe kid have fun
Jesus sacrificed himself to himself, died and rose three days later so the story goes. I wish I could only be dead for three days and then come back and live forever. Not a bad deal, so the question still is what did he sacrifice?
@@redeemedone8553
Him dying for me also includes him coming back to life a few days later, hugging his friends, showing off his scars, then hovering up into the clouds to mount his throne and be declared king of the universe. Forever. Some sacrifice, heh?
shonkee gogo So, how is “dying” for a day and half then flying back to Heaven a sacrifice? When dealing with the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), early Judaism, and early Christianity, and their wider cultural worlds, “sacrifice” is best defined as the ritualized slaughter of animals and the processing of their bodies in relation to supernatural forces (especially gods).
@@redeemedone8553 Yes. Crucifixion could easily be considered a walk in the park for someone if they knew the end result was eternal life
@@AC-gb7do Jeebus took 3 DAYS to rise his zombie ass from the dead. He was busy dispatching 72 virgins during that time. Hee Hee Hee.
He sacrificed your intelligence if you believe that shit.
On behalf of all Bronze Age goat herders...thank you, John.
Not a single word in the bible was EVER written by god. Man wrote everything. Anyone else think this is strange?
The fact I had to hear about a series of god claims from a human is really suspicious.
In the beginning Man created god, and in doing so he created him in his own image and saw that it was good. Then Man created doctrines to substantiate his deities and that's where bibles, torah's, koran's etc. come in
@Timothy Mostad All the ones indoctrinated
@Timothy Mostad true, sorry poor choice of words, I just don't know how all that deity stuff works
@Timothy Mostad LOL! ironic, go to any book store and you'll find the bible under fiction
Clips are great, you guys should link to the full show the clip is associated with.
There are quotes from people much smarter than I who say that without autism, society would still be sitting around a fire banging rocks together...
Best one ever. I’m saving this video
Thanks, man. I’m glad you enjoyed it. 👍
this caller is so nice and respectful. it was a good convo.
When I was about 12, 13 years old My friends and I were goofing off in church, we were smacking each other with the bouquet of flowers we were to offer the virgin Mary, ( they were plastic ) then we were scolded by a church lady and told to go home and read our bibles, best advice ever!! after reading the bible I said to myself Holy freaking Mole! who believes this baloney, when you go to church, they tend to cherry pick the bible and read you the warm fuzzy stuff, and leave out the load of garbage that it really is. By the age of 18, I was free from religion. And I'm sorry, but deities just don't make logical sense and bibles are rather comical
1j007zm So your inability to understand what is in the Bible is why you reject God? OK got it
@@protruth1 No! you don't get it, key word LOGIC
@@1j007zm Lying little douchenozzles attempting to defend the Christian manual for genocide often accuse those that disagree with them of misunderstanding.
@@rembrandt972ify LOL the irony
1j007zm your assessments and logic don’t belong in the same sentence.
How easy is it to show that Christian belief is just a case of "I'm all right, Jack"? "I believe, so I am going to heaven".
Phil has always been my favorite host! 🥰
I have gotten into it with christians claiming proof of christ outside the bible. And then list Roman and Greek historians who were not alive during the time of Christ, by at least a couple decades, who wrote ABOUT Christians and their following of a guy named Jesus. But that isn't evidence of anything other than what early Christians believed.
So funny that a World Video Bible School advert starts before the video.
Goat herders perform a useful function, unlike preachers ! The fact that the various authors of the Bible could actually write suggests that they were probably better educated than the guy out on the hill looking after his flock. - Not just write, but in Greek ! Not exactly well known in that area of the world at the time.
Have you hugged your crocoduck today?
Crocoducks need love, too, you know...
Crocoduck is the missing oink.
Hopefully, this guys son will educate daddy as the years go by..
Wouldn't it be more fair to say the New Testament was written in the Iron Age, rather than the Bronze Age?
There are books written by Caesar. 2 have survived that discuss his campaigns. Other books he authored about other campaigns that did not survive are referred to by contemporary sources. What did jesus write again?.
christianity got started when an April's Fool joke got way the fuck out of hand.
The term "Intelligence" like the word"'god" can have myriad meanings and is subject to many different and or personal definitions,however do 'intelligent" people believe in( and disseminate as truth) mythologies,supernatural "explanations" and stories that are as falsely grounded in reality as any fairy tale that would appeal to young children.
Come on Jonathan , let it go man.
mt
You should add “tomb” to your name. 😀👍🏻
The bronze age goat herders comment isn't necessarily an ad hominem when used correctly. If a theist is arguing that modern day science is incorrect and that a book written by people who were in fact bronze age goat herders is more accurate, then it is absolutely justified to ask why we should listen to bronze age goat herders over modern day scientists. That's not an ad hominem, it is a perfectly reasonable pathway for the conversation to take.
School makes you stupid! LOL I liked it better when I was young and knew everything! Hehehe!
This is remarkable. Every christian repeats _ad-nauseam_ that Jesus sacrified himself for us, and when someone asks "what did he sacrifice?" the incoherent babble starts and they can't give you a clear answer. It just takes a very simple question to shake the fundations of this whole "salvation" thing. If Jesus still exists, and if Jesus is not in hell (considering that Jesus is god himself), then he sacrificed nothing, and the whole process was completely unnecessary, as well as nonsensical.
Alot of people don't really understand what an Ad Hominem really is. An ad hominem is a personal attack that is used in place of an argument or evidence. So for example if someone I'm debating says the earth is flat and I say the earth is round, and I just say "you're an idiot" that is an ad hominem. However if I give studies and evidence and an argument, and then I say "so yeah you're an idiot" that isn't really an ad hominem, in the sense that it is a comment that doesn't help or hurt my argumentation logically. Although it still may be unproductive to insult. If the other person says "hey you used an ad hominem!" Instead of refuting the argument I gave, then that would be the Red Herring fallacy or possibly Handwaving fallacy. They are so focused on the tag I put at the end convinced it's an ad hominem, and they try to use that to discredit my argument.
@krelfurnace
I think we said the same thing with different words lol
@@dungeon-wn4gw Let me correct it for you using your words. If I say "so yeah you're an idiot" that is an insult, possibly just a statement of fact. If I say "your wrong because you're an idiot" that is an ad hominem.
so why didn't the wise men write about jesus...yet people who never met him or barely knew him...DID?....this makes absolutely NO SENSE
If god created us with the requirement that we must be redeemed, then that god has failed.
Jon watches every week and has learned nothing. Keep believing in all the things you do not have evidence for. Light up that ciggie Jon, sit back and wait for the Jesus man to return.
Todd Cronin
I’m waiting. 🤗
That was refreshing, especially after the antivaxxer.
Christy T
Thank you. 😀👍🏻
20.15 argument.
hes saying that if you have rotten heart you must know jesus then you saved. aka loophole to enter heaven even if youre super bad
I like Jonathan. Not only is he just a nice guy, he’s a far more thoughtful Christian than pro-pologist used-god salesmen like Craig and Turek. The core beliefs are just as incoherent, but at least he brings a new attitude to the table.
Thanks, man. 👍
(Luc 12:47) And the servant who had knowledge of his lord's desires and was not ready for him and did not do as he was ordered, will be given a great number of blows;
(Luc 12:48) But he who, without knowledge, did things for which punishment is given, will get only a small number of blows. The man to whom much is given, will have to give much; if much is given into his care, of him more will be requested.
God bless you!
Sometime in the remote future, the Son of man will be seen in clouds with his angels and he will separate the bronze age goat herders from the bronze age sheep herders for some peculiar reason.
As far I know Christians believe that all souls went to hell or purgatory. After the death and resurrection of Christ there was a purge of those and the worthy were taken to heaven, solves that problem. Not that I'm Christian or believe that, but that's what is said having taken classes in religion.
when confronted by theists in anyway...i ask one simple question----do you know or believe people can lie?.........the look in their faces is all i need to know
So didn't Jesus go down into hell according to the Bible and free all the lost souls before his resurrection? I think the caller should've brought that point up. But still doesn't negate the fact whether or not his sacrifice did anything for the believers at all. Great show!! 💯👏🤯🤔
Most of the Bible authors llived in the Iron age, which started 3200 years ago.
The sharp swords used by the followers of Jesus were made of iron (not bronze).
It's interesting that the most advanced weapon 2000 years ago was the sword.
Even the Angel of death had nothing better ! (Luke 22:36, Revelation 6:8).
The Middle East Bronze Age ended in 1,200 BCE, then the Iron Age began. Jesus allegedly lived in the Iron Age.
Come on guys, help poor Jonathan here, what change after Jesus sacrifice was the gore, the torture, the blood and the bile, isn’t it what we look for in a good drama script?
A question, did the Roman centurions had free will during the crucifixion? I mean could they have refused to proceed with the execution, thereby derailing the whole sacrifice story? Or since everything was preordained by God , they were not to be blamed because they were doing what it was asked of them?
Jesus sacrificed his weekend.
Iron age, not bronze age.
True enough bronze age 3000 - 1200 BC so most of the texts would be iron age with a few maybe in the bronze age.
@@ForumCat It's been a while, but I didn't think any biblical texts were older than 500 or 600 BCE? But certainly based on older bronze age near east traditions.
Some of the stories may have come from the bronze age, but they were all written down during the iron age. We don't know how many of the authors herded goats...
@@bicameralmind6785 I feel that we should know. I think more stories from actual goat herders is what the world is needing right now. Those shepherds have been having their own way far too long.
Let me see if I get this straight. God creates the universe knowing everything that will happen in it, because he's omniscient and omnipotent. Then he sends himself down as his own son by raping a virgin, sacrifices himself to himself to atone for the sins he created us to commit, resurrected and ascended himself, and now sits at his own right hand in heaven. Got it. Makes perfect sense.
We know nothing about the authors who they were when it was written where not a blasted thing
🤔 mans kinda got a point.
"Hell" doesn't appear anywhere in the bible.
nunya wrong...
@@protruth1
Hades, Gahenna, and Tartaróō. While these three terms are translated in the KJV as "hell" these three terms have three very different meanings.
Timothy Mostad Many cultures find it very important to respect the dead. They paved the road we step on so that we can pave our own road for the future generations. All one human collective working to increase humanitarian efforts. Well most of us anyway.
Timothy Mostad that is completely incorrect hell was compared to that but was revealed as eternal. I didn’t derive from it, it was a comparison to it brainiac.
you might want to do some serious research before you comment on these things.
nunya you forgot sheol, and yes I know the meaning of all of the Hebrew and Greek words that reference hell and how they differ in meaning from grave to place of torment.
I also know the clear description Jesus gave of hell fire and torment.
No. It’s irrelevant to the logic & truth of the claims
They were high functioning goat herders.
Ha! I asked a JW exactly that question about judged by someones heart, and why they come and knock on doors if that Can make someone not to be saved. They became angry... 🙄
IKR. A missionary can tell you that they believe people can get into heaven through being honestly and genuinely ignorant to christian "teachings", giving zero thought to the fact that they're, by their own doctrine, screwing people over by not keeping it to themselves.
You asked whatdid he change except the calendar system? (Guy on the left) doesn't it say the evil antichrist would change the times and seasons? Just something that always stuck out to me because I believe Jesus is actually the devil in the Bible. Youguys are extremely funny. I love listening to these. I can write so many contradictions
another one from arizona......
Jesus sacrificed HIS LIFE, he did not have a natural life, but a spirit (Heb 9:15) Christ died to rescue those who had sinned and broken the old agreement. Now he brings his chosen ones a new agreement with its guarantee of God's eternal blessings!
I hope that Jonathan extends his thinking to realize that, as the good parent he is, he would not put his wonderful child at risk of eternal damnation if he had a choice. Jonathan, you are too good to be christian, and you are too good a parent to curse your child with christianity. Don't pass it along. Let it end with you. Jonathan, good luck to you and your child.
Earth Man
Thank you. I am not going to talk to him about religious stuff until he’s old enough to understand and also ask questions. 👍🏻
@@Language85265 Hey Jonathan, I am delighted you read my comment. Thanks for the response. Keep seeking truth and taking care of your son. Peace and good luck.
Earth Man
That’s quality advice if I’ve ever heard it. You, as well. 👍🏻🤗
btw it isn't an ad hominem unless eric was saying this was written by goat headers therefore the claims are false, that is in no way the argument being made.
I've never seen a header for a goat.
Easy to believe with faith, hard to understand and explain, I’m scared shitless meeting the creator god that invented “with love” oh save me and let me be dead and stay dead save me from life end my chapter in the book.
The whole, "Jesus died for our salvation, etc etc..." really doesn't make any sense. If Jonathan used the same level of critical thinking that he did for the anti-vaxx, flat Earth callers, then he would realise that his theistic beliefs are as unjustified as those that he criticized.
Its always special pleading with those types.
YOU ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME! the bible is here, IT IS THE EVIDENCE, and it claims to be the best evidence, you don't know the author! BUT THERE IS AN AUTHOR.
By the way, DO YOU HAVE THE TOOL OR PROCEDURE TO DETECT THE source of the ideas or data contained? YOU CANNOT SAY NO ONE TOLD YOU!
(Luc 16:29) Abraham answered, "Your brothers can read what Moses and the prophets wrote. They should pay attention to that."
(Luc 16:30) Then the rich man said, "No, that's not enough! If only someone from the dead would go to them, they would listen and turn to God."
(Luc 16:31) So Abraham said, "If they won't pay attention to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even to someone who comes back from the dead."
EVOLUTION IS A BIG LIE AND IT WILL NOT LAST LONG
GOD BLESS YOU!
I have Stop listening at 25 minutes This Christian does not even know gospel the truth of the Scriptures Repent and turn to Jesus and you can be saved
I have Stop listening at 25 minutes This Christian does not even know gospel the truth of the Scriptures Repent and turn to Jesus and you can be saved
"saved"? From what?
Karl Schneider From sin That will lead to hell and separation from God Don’t mean to be the bringer of bad news but Jesus paid the price for Sin If you accept him as your Lord and saviour God bless you and I hope you find the truth
@@gypsyboylee4018 What about all of the lies of the Scriptures?
I have Stop listening at 25 minutes This Christian does not even know gospel the truth of the Scriptures Repent and turn to Jesus and you can be saved