I really can't clock in more than 4 hours of programming work a day, I mean the work I get paid for. If there was actually any interesting projects I'm sure I could do it for longer. I'm well paid monkey doing JS tricks with shitty outdated frameworks for living. Save me.
Carmack was a co founder of id Software. Most programmers in the gaming industry today are not co founders but are expected to work hard and do extra hours. That's the key difference. They are not going to be buying Ferraris even if they do 12h a day no matter how successful the game they are developing is when they release it. I understand Carmack's point of view but I think it is important to make that distinction. Working for your own company and working for a salary is completely different. The level of dedication and passion cannot be the same. Should not be the same. Nobody should expect that.
Exactly this, give me a percentage of the profits and I’ll work more hours consistently. Others wise I’m just working 40 hours and occasionally a few more hours per week if needed
@@thebrogrammer2077 Exactly - a game company I worked for had 50 employees and sold on the stock market making the two bosses 30 million. The rest us got every little, maybe 2K each for a the well paid coders. They were nice guys BTW, I liked the bosses and the company.
It's easier than ever to make your own indie games. Recent developers like Markus Persson, Jonatan Söderström and Micah McGonigal have all gotten super successful. I don't know if Notch drives a Ferrari, but he out-bid Beyoncé and Jay-Z for a home in the Hollywood Hills.
Speaking of misinterpreting things. The primary concern with overwork in the games industry is not so much about being concerned about a 40 hour week, it's about being expected to do 80 hours because of really poor planning. We all know we can push harder and achieve more - but you've always done it on your terms - not a publishers.
Also typically people don't get paid for that extra time. Those higher up get to profit from the software getting pushed out on an overwork schedule, but usually not the programmers, designers etc.
I am one of the "normal" people Carmack talked about - I get burned out, I need breaks, etc. But I really love that he's trying to make space for others like him who actually can work 60 hours a week for decades and be fulfilled about it.
just depends on what work you're doing - if you're working on a thing that you know will benefit you, or you can happily put your name on, or is something you truly believe in, it is easy to work 60 hour weeks
LOL as much as I love Carmack dude would blow his brains out doing any sort of Labor related work 60-80 hours a week like my pops has done since the mid 80s
Your pops would blow their brains out if they had to come with the algorithms Carmack did. Say whatever you like about manual work, but the crude reality is that the less you use your brain the more disposable you're in this society.
Deep work also lays a foundation for better work ahead. Work is different when you absolutely love it vs. somewhere beneath that. If your mind naturally works in the state the work requires, it's a different synergy. Some of us do "work" just analyzing every day life.
I can always listen to Carmack! Speaking of burnout..for me it comes from realizing the project, person or company you are working for just isn't worth the effort. When younger, just learning something new or completing a task, regardless of it's larger significance, was enough...not so much anymore.
An interesting point to consider is that his efficiency is not based on doing one task. He has a choice of activities where he expends his energy. As his experience in each of these tasks increases, the less fatigue he accumulates because each new activity is a break point. There is much more going on there than just 'hard work'. Read between the lines.
Working more and harder depends on the type of work and what kind of work you're doing. John has taken part of some amazing projects, where working more and making a breakthru is important. Many jobs that are more operations and maintenance based, working more hours is overall detrimental to mental health because it's essentially a treadmill doing a lot of the same types of work day in and day out. Totally respect those who want to "work harder" for breakthroughs, but in my mid-40s now there are few projects that would seem so important that working 80-100 hours a week would be worth it. There is so much more art, entertainment, and ideas to explore in the world that it would seem wasteful to dedicate so much time to one thing. But to John's point, it all depends on what you love doing!
Depends what field you work in. Programming (and jobs where it's a core component) is perhaps one of the most "accessible" fields where you have certain types of people who are genuinely passionate about being excellent at it and making breakthroughs, in the same way a musician or artist might be obsessive about their field. Music is my main passion in life, but programming taps the same part of my brain -- to really hit new heights it's all about creativity (within rigid structure of course) and improvisation. If you look at other fields in white collar world, like accounting, adminstrative stuff (or as you said, "maintenance based"), management, auditing etc...I haven't really met anyone that's uber passionate about them, and so working above the bare minimum isn't really a great idea...even from a sheer human utility perspective. PS - my above comment is not meant to denigrate other areas of work.
@@xxczerxx As a musician, programmer and accountant administrative, I can say working 40 hours on the "administrative part of my life" is sometimes satisfying, as there are many challenges throughout the week. However, I agree art is sometimes more appealing because there aren't big rigid structures or rules to follow, so it's probably the most motivating activity. But definitely I agree on the statement "It depends on what are you working and who are you working for".
I love this guy!!! I am one of those people who is constantly being told I have poor work/life balance. I can never seem to explain to others that I am just happier when I am accomplishing more of my lifes work!
Depends on the work. I was almost burned out by a 40 hour work week, working on an app with an unstable backend + an ineffective organisation. Now I'm building another app, no middle managers in the way, an organisation that trusts me - I'm happily plowing 50-60 hours into it.
I love this! As a musician, I often get lectured about over-working myself when I'm pulling 80 hours a week. I always find this silly, because I also have big periods of my life where I only work 20 hours a week, or where I only work 40. I never feel burnout, because there is always a light at the end of the tunnel for me.
He's got the key to not being burned out. He is working a lot of hours, but he knows not to go past what his brain can deal with in a given day. A lot of people get fatigued because they go past that point and work to exhaustion.
The weird thing is I have hyperproductive periods where I smash everything then a 'cool down' period where I have to relax my mind a bit. I can get 80% of my hardest daily tasks done in 2 hours. It's weird but incredibly productive for us professional "problem solvers".
This is all great and inspiring. But what do you do on that 7th day? How does John Carmack take a break? What’s a ‘B’ day like? We often hear about productive days, but I wish there were more out there on the structure of an off day. I doubt he rolls out of bed at 1PM, smokes a doob and watches Star Trek. He probably wakes up early and makes the most of his break - I’d love to hear him and other inspirationally productive people describe their break days.
His metaphor isn't wrong... but none of the work we're doing is to literally save the world. The stakes for what 99.9% of us do aren't that high. It's not about doing more work or being more productive, but maintaining a healthy work-life balance. I do disagree that more hours means working harder - you can work hard in 40 hours and still get the job done.
I feel like there is a balance between efficiency and productivity, but not only does it depend on the individual but the level of passion in the task being done. No substitute for hard work, but burnout is real.
God damn, I find so many things in common with John. I am also jealous same as him about the guys who have all the time in the world to make a programming marathon. And I just found out that we BOTH know we mean business when we open the can of coke when it comes to programming haha I can definitely say John is my hero.
If he wants to work 100 hours a week, that's his prerogative. 40 hours a week is not a part time job and I would never push myself to do more than that.. Some of us have lives John.
Works hard but not in a dumb way like many people do, that's why he said once: "when it's done" and that's a very important sentence for both his mental and physical health and also for us to have high quality products in the end. If someone is whining about the 40 hours work week its not because of overwork, its because he doesn't really like that work and even if he had 32, 24, 16 hours of work per week he would still complain. Of course hard manual labor is a different matter because there should be limits on how much you should stress your body and its very dependent on how hard and dangerous the work is, but here they talk about mental work.
Yeah I’m a solo developer building my own business and video game. I do everything myself. I basically put in most hours of the day, week after week, month after month, year after year. I don’t think I have a particularly strong work ethic. I would be lazy in just about any other context. There’s just no way I would put in that effort for someone else without the full rewards and potentials that come with building for oneself. Your mindset fundamentally changes when you work for yourself, such that it becomes apples and oranges, even if the main activities seem the same from the outside perspective.
i doubt jc will read these comments, but im curious of his opinion on henry ford's introduction of lower working hours increasing productivity, and uk holidays in the victorian era increasing productivity... i say this as someone who has worked an amazing abundance of over hours and believes the same as is put across here.
for most men (males) , working longer more strenuous effort, can be more productive over time with proper focus and rational approach to the problem being addressed.
Some people game for 16 hours straight, but they refuse to find any job that would require them to work for more than 8. I think it's all about priorities in life. Nothing more, nothing else. Heck, in my country of Portugal, leftist parties are talking about 7h/day, 35h/week being the maximum by law. That is literally insane.
Working 40 hours a week is fine when you are still stuck doing stuff that you shouldn't be doing in the first place. When you actually do what you love and what is important that entire consideration goes straight out the window. As it should.
But well, time is limited. And many people do not love only one thing 100% and don't care about other things. Maybe you love your job, but still you have a wife, children, hobbies and some duties like cleaning up your flat, organizing things etc
@@Jack-4242 A lot of the pitiful shit normal people waste their time on is either unnecessary or can be delegated. And don't get me started on the co dependent dumpster fire you people call relationships.
He is not wrong. More than 8 hrs is more total productivity and less productivity per hour. But still more overall. It really comes down to whether people SHOULD be expected to put in those kind of hours.
Yeah if you’re probably paying people for that level of work great but not if you pay them $45,000 a year and then expect them to work 80 hours a week so you can make $1 billion for your shareholders that’s bullshit
14:00 yes, but that's not the only factor you must weight when making public policies. 40-hours for a living wage is reasonable, if you want to work beyond that and be productive and happy that's great, but your livelihood shouldn't depend on that extra effort.
My brain turns to mush after 4 hours lol. 4 hours of concentration and the rest is just muddling about. And that's on the days I actually kick off, often I just fiddle around without getting deep at all
Trauma happens at 70 to 90 hours. Unless you are doing it in your own I don't think it's healthy to push people that far People fought for the weekend and gaming work culture is toxic. We are not the norm in terms of work ethic and shouldn't pressure others. 😉
I can work for about 8 hours a day coding and/or reading and/or writing but if I do that for too many consecutive days I start to become very irritable and unhappy. Someone will say something that I think is stupid and it will literally hurt my head to process it. I'll then spend five to ten minutes replaying it in my head, trying to work-out all the reasons that it didn't make sense, which is often extremely complicated. It can sometimes take me few months to really understand all the ways that what someone said didn't make sense. It is like my brain is seeing that person's sentence as a coding or philosophical problem that I have to resolve. I'm not even that high on the autistic spectrum.
I am one of those people who can do 12 plus hours on only 3 to 4 hours sleep. I find that if I'm really enjoying the work, it is hard to stop, and on those days I can easily reach 16 hours. If I am finding the work tedious though, I will normally clock out after 10 hours. If there are deadlines, I will generally push myself much harder, though. Always on my terms though. I do have a family, so weekends for me are sacred, so pushing myself throughout the week allows me that luxury.
Carmack's advice while well intentioned, isn't universal. Working > 8 hours a day makes sense if you love your job over most other things. But, most of us don't.
Right, that's the absolute difference. People who love what they do may not understand. Just like those not enjoying their work may not understand being tightly aligned with your work as a person.
He admits that it's not for everyone. I think if people are free to do what they want and are not forced to do something repetitive for 8 hours a day, or worse: something useless, many more people would do their own projects for 12 hours a day. Most people are not lazy but alienating work makes you empty.
@@rolyars i think most people are very lazy and would rather not work majority of their day if they had the option. source: retirement, house wives, homeless, overweight. Not to say it's wrong to be lazy, physical and mental efforts require high caloric investments, so we are kinda programmed to conserve energy by evolution. Those who were too active, died of starvation until quite recently.
@@vytasffbismarck7001 that's what many people think but it is not at all what happened in experiments with basic income. Retired people are just extinguished and I would argue housewives do work hard. Also very rich people who could do nothing usually do all sorts of things. Some just party but most don't. Most people want to achieve things, compete, leave a legacy and basic survival is not the trigger to do it. An example of this is open source software, such as Linux. The most used operating system was produced without financial incentive. It's when you have your basic needs that you can do something for yourself and that's when working hard comes natural.
If he's drinking with aspartame - no bueno. Aspartame is metabolized to formaldehyde, which, let's just say isn't good for the body. We need Mr. Carmack around, he needs a drink with erythritol.
@@mudranick7064 There's 46mg of caffeine in a 12oz can of diet coke so 8 would be 368mg which is just slightly below the recommended upper limit of 400mg per day.
Company now wants workers to do more work to make more profit. It’s you choosing if you support it, how do you benefit from it when you get more and more responsibility on a same pay grade
I think that the best work is done by my subconscious. When the code appears in my head, I type it in -- as long as the Muse keeps delivering it. But beyond a certain point it's better to step away and let the subconscious make more connections. I'm not a big fan of 10 hour days, you can be programming even when you aren't sitting at the computer typing. Debugging, on the other hand, happens until it works.
I was always like this when I was a programmer, I found quite a lot of the time that I needed to let my subconscious get work on an idea or a solution. I could spend a couple of days in the office watching UA-cam videos and 'dicking around', most people would think of this as slacking off, but I always wrote my best code when given chance allow an idea to gestate. Once it did, I'd often bang it out in a 16-20 hour flurry of activity.
I admire his work, but at the same time, working for yourself and your own company, on a project that you've chosen, and getting a big chunk of the profit for the result is different than working for standard salaries.
maybe when the model in some of the European countries where every worker at the company is also a shareholder of the company, more ppl would be more invested in their work and make better products because they have more of an incentive to care.
9:45 That's what I do right now. After developing one of my games for 2 months or so in a row... I always get burned out. So I switch to my other, different game and boom... motivation is through the roof again! :D I can only recommend this approach! :)
So funny - I see this guy walking around in my neighborhood a lot. He dresses like it's the early 2000s and often wears large headphones. I had no idea he was this smart and famous!!
Lex: "I listen to brown noise while I code". Honestly that's the weirdest thing I've heard in these interview clips so far. 😂 I've been a developer for 38 years and I've worked with all sorts of developers who all seem to listen to some kind of music (except one guy who listened to talk radio and radio plays). I listen to a wide variety of music but when I'm really looking to trip out into maximum flow it's trance, hardcore jungle techno and that kind of dance music. I might have to try brown noise though, a novel choice! Great interview. 😁👍
Ive found brown noise good on days where I felt more drained and I just needed smoother atmosphere , but I dont do code for games I do art so it might be different , but when you do filler type work like rendering illustration trance is the way to go , but for more foundational work like figuring cleaning up your comps and fixing your anatomy /foreshortening , picking right light scenario , more easy on the brain stuff can help if Im stuck and frustrated
@@madsteeez that's an interesting approach to coding. 😂 I always wondered if that toothless dude downtown who shouts "Alexa, lights off" at the street lights was a former software developer and now I think I have the answer...
Working yourself to death might make you achieve more but is it worth it? I mean, I'd love to create a hit game but I'd rather have modestly successful game and a family that I spend time with regularly.
Working long hours when you are obsessed and pationed about something it's ok. You might be missing out on so many other things but that's your choice. However, people who are at this level of working shouldn't enforce this behavior into others. Most people aren't pationed or obsessed about their job. In fact, most people can't wait to get home and do something else.
@@ProfessorDingus if you read about him you'll find out he was also modding those ferraris so he wanted those for a technical reason just like a proper nerd. Also gave away in the earliest days of "pro gaming" to the winner of some quake competition. The other reason is obviously speed, these type of guys like high peformance stuff in both games and real life :) And indeed having access to pizza and sports cars is definitely "childlike", he didn't buy these for the "high social status" reason that most of "grown up" people buy for (they often don't even know how to properly drive and service these cars).
It depends what your job is, I suppose. In my job, for example, 12 hours is around the sweet spot for daily productivity, considering I wear quite a few hats and need to be on multiple tasks on any given day which are crucial for the bigger machine to keep on running, so to speak. I prefer to start a day with nothing left over from the previous one. Just feels better, and more progressive.
The thing is that he is obsessed with work trying to make everything perfect, he is not like a normal developer, he really tries his best... if something doesn't work the way he wants, it is still there until his head shuts down and he falls asleep.
8 hours of work a day, 40 hours a week is too much, 6 a day, 30 per week would be ok, if you are working only for money. If you are passionate about your work and love it so much, there are no limits.
Actually the most intriguing thing about John Carmack is how he can stand the taste of diet Coke!? That s*it tastes like puke and he drinks 8 or 9 a day!? What a legend.....
It's incredibly re-affirming to hear that even the biggest big shots in my field struggle with the same menial BS about how to plan your life to be ever so slightly more productive lol
Carmack drinking 8 cans of diet coke a day and being "just fine" is like that dude telling you smoking cigarettes ain't that bad because his pops smoked 2 packs a day and died at 87 years old
I admire Carmack, but that analogy on "working more hours" is just dumb. Do you prefer to get a surgery from a well rested surgeon or the one that is on the last hours of his 24 hs shift? Do you prefer that the programmer that writes the code for the asteroid interceptor is on his optimal form or that he make the code on a hackathon of 3 days without sleep?.
That's not what he's saying. He's simply saying more hours gets more work done. You don't have to marathon it, simply working 6x10 hour days gets more done then the regular 5x8.
Yes, I'd like to be worked on by a well-rested surgeon. The trouble is, so would everyone else, and there aren't that many well-rested surgeons in existence. Using the work of people who are performing optimally is a luxury that most of us can't afford. And if an asteroid impact is imminent, it's a luxury we really can't afford. You can look at it either way around: As a customer, if you want people working at their maximum efficiency, you need to have more people (which costs money) or wait longer (costing time). As a worker, if you work your maximally efficient work day, you'll be out-accomplished by someone who works slightly less efficiently but way more hours.
The medical one is a bad example because excessive hours in hospitals leads to increased mistakes and actually kills people. In the case of the interceptor you should rather be looking for more people to assist, because again tired people make more mistakes and in the case of the interceptor that could result in a trajectory error which renders the device useless. Working excessive hours is unhealthy, but at least if what you're producing is a game then at worst your mistakes probably result in a crash rather than killing people.
It's all about practice and habits man. It's like when you go to the gym and see a guy lifting unbelievable weight - it's not like he was born this way but rather he's worked his way up to it over time, and it's exactly the same with mental work. You can get to Carmack's level of mental work if you're dedicated enough and add to your workload regularly in small doses.
I am glad that Mister Carmack has an inkling of what the limitations of his thought process is,and how he realizes that the wetware biological CPU called the brain requires downtime for steady productivity. I am an older guy who stocks shelves at night,and I am well aware of the toll the job takes on my body,and the maintenance of my body demands the immobility of it just to heal,and I try to eat a higher grade of slop my ambition and skill can derive. It's all math at the base of it,equations of one's physical resources and their response to specific conditions. You are your Statistics.
Don’t think about what all the Democrats are saying today about Elon Musk Ryan Twitter and telling them they need to come to the office and work hard how everybody’s calling him a terrible person and they’re all quitting because they don’t get to just drink wine all day
I have to disagree with carmack here. Simply compare european to american work culture. There is many companies with parts in europe and part in the us to be able to make some very telling comparisons. Europeans on average work less hours and have way more vacation days, and yet they get the same amount done, often even more. Sure if you work on a passion poject like he did 60 hour weeks maybe sustainable, but if it is just work you need to recharge your batteries. And the comparisons he makes, scientists working in research, doctors woeking in hospitals, those are all jobs you work since you have a passion for this. So it is not comparable to a job to put food on the table.
One group that absolutely should not be working excess hours is doctors. Passion cannot make up for the known deficits that occur due to fatigue, and in the case of medicine it literally kills patients.
John Carmack: "my brain turn to mush after 12 hours'
Me: my brain turn to mush after 1 hour.
seriously, 3 hours or 5 and im done
I really can't clock in more than 4 hours of programming work a day, I mean the work I get paid for. If there was actually any interesting projects I'm sure I could do it for longer. I'm well paid monkey doing JS tricks with shitty outdated frameworks for living. Save me.
This isn't something to gloat about for likes on UA-cam. Man up and do better bro c'mon now.
my mush is brain
@@ShutUpBubi What's your limit, then?
Carmack was a co founder of id Software. Most programmers in the gaming industry today are not co founders but are expected to work hard and do extra hours.
That's the key difference.
They are not going to be buying Ferraris even if they do 12h a day no matter how successful the game they are developing is when they release it.
I understand Carmack's point of view but I think it is important to make that distinction. Working for your own company and working for a salary is completely different. The level of dedication and passion cannot be the same. Should not be the same. Nobody should expect that.
Exactly this, give me a percentage of the profits and I’ll work more hours consistently. Others wise I’m just working 40 hours and occasionally a few more hours per week if needed
this
@@thebrogrammer2077 Exactly - a game company I worked for had 50 employees and sold on the stock market making the two bosses 30 million. The rest us got every little, maybe 2K each for a the well paid coders. They were nice guys BTW, I liked the bosses and the company.
It's easier than ever to make your own indie games. Recent developers like Markus Persson, Jonatan Söderström and Micah McGonigal have all gotten super successful. I don't know if Notch drives a Ferrari, but he out-bid Beyoncé and Jay-Z for a home in the Hollywood Hills.
You nailed it.
These clips are a godsend. Maybe I'll listen to the entire interview someday, but for now, these are perfect.
Yeah, 5 hours. I think it is Lex's biggest one :)
Agreed!
@@ukukudu caramack just talks too much. It could have cut short to 2 hours. If he talks what's necessary.
Speaking of misinterpreting things. The primary concern with overwork in the games industry is not so much about being concerned about a 40 hour week, it's about being expected to do 80 hours because of really poor planning. We all know we can push harder and achieve more - but you've always done it on your terms - not a publishers.
Also typically people don't get paid for that extra time. Those higher up get to profit from the software getting pushed out on an overwork schedule, but usually not the programmers, designers etc.
@@Ian-eb2io what the fuck do you mean they don't get paid?
What kind of absurd laws even allow this?
In my country every hour of overwork is 150% pay.
@@ghosthunter0950 not in the games industry I bet
@@ghosthunter0950it’s called being on a salary
@Ian-eb2io you get paid in experience and investment in yourself, which typically pays off financially in the future.
I am one of the "normal" people Carmack talked about - I get burned out, I need breaks, etc. But I really love that he's trying to make space for others like him who actually can work 60 hours a week for decades and be fulfilled about it.
just depends on what work you're doing - if you're working on a thing that you know will benefit you, or you can happily put your name on, or is something you truly believe in, it is easy to work 60 hour weeks
LOL as much as I love Carmack dude would blow his brains out doing any sort of Labor related work 60-80 hours a week like my pops has done since the mid 80s
Most of us thankfully will NEVER know what that's like in the same way just like how a coal miner today can't compare to the 1870s
Your pops would blow their brains out if they had to come with the algorithms Carmack did. Say whatever you like about manual work, but the crude reality is that the less you use your brain the more disposable you're in this society.
Same is true for your pops on carmack’s position
Deep work also lays a foundation for better work ahead.
Work is different when you absolutely love it vs. somewhere beneath that. If your mind naturally works in the state the work requires, it's a different synergy.
Some of us do "work" just analyzing every day life.
[sits a computer opens a terminal]
[cracks open a diet coke]
[Doom music intensifies]
I can always listen to Carmack! Speaking of burnout..for me it comes from realizing the project, person or company you are working for just isn't worth the effort. When younger, just learning something new or completing a task, regardless of it's larger significance, was enough...not so much anymore.
An interesting point to consider is that his efficiency is not based on doing one task. He has a choice of activities where he expends his energy. As his experience in each of these tasks increases, the less fatigue he accumulates because each new activity is a break point. There is much more going on there than just 'hard work'. Read between the lines.
This is my game developer hero! Thanks for Doom & Quake Mr. Carmack!
There wouldn't be a Valve without John Carmack.
@@marionogueiraramos9488 How is that in any way relevant to this comment? Lmao
@@ribethings exactly! thanks
@@marionogueiraramos9488 And? There wouldn't be video games without Atari... its all relevant.
@@ShutUpBubi sure, but Valve first big break is directly based on code from id Software, code by Carmack.
Working more and harder depends on the type of work and what kind of work you're doing. John has taken part of some amazing projects, where working more and making a breakthru is important. Many jobs that are more operations and maintenance based, working more hours is overall detrimental to mental health because it's essentially a treadmill doing a lot of the same types of work day in and day out. Totally respect those who want to "work harder" for breakthroughs, but in my mid-40s now there are few projects that would seem so important that working 80-100 hours a week would be worth it. There is so much more art, entertainment, and ideas to explore in the world that it would seem wasteful to dedicate so much time to one thing. But to John's point, it all depends on what you love doing!
im trying to put my energy into one day leaving my job and doing something for myself but its hard to see light at the end of the tunnel sometimes :(
Depends what field you work in. Programming (and jobs where it's a core component) is perhaps one of the most "accessible" fields where you have certain types of people who are genuinely passionate about being excellent at it and making breakthroughs, in the same way a musician or artist might be obsessive about their field.
Music is my main passion in life, but programming taps the same part of my brain -- to really hit new heights it's all about creativity (within rigid structure of course) and improvisation.
If you look at other fields in white collar world, like accounting, adminstrative stuff (or as you said, "maintenance based"), management, auditing etc...I haven't really met anyone that's uber passionate about them, and so working above the bare minimum isn't really a great idea...even from a sheer human utility perspective.
PS - my above comment is not meant to denigrate other areas of work.
Ditto.
@@xxczerxx As a musician, programmer and accountant administrative, I can say working 40 hours on the "administrative part of my life" is sometimes satisfying, as there are many challenges throughout the week. However, I agree art is sometimes more appealing because there aren't big rigid structures or rules to follow, so it's probably the most motivating activity. But definitely I agree on the statement "It depends on what are you working and who are you working for".
I love this guy!!! I am one of those people who is constantly being told I have poor work/life balance. I can never seem to explain to others that I am just happier when I am accomplishing more of my lifes work!
John Carmack is savage. what a legend.
Depends on the work. I was almost burned out by a 40 hour work week, working on an app with an unstable backend + an ineffective organisation. Now I'm building another app, no middle managers in the way, an organisation that trusts me - I'm happily plowing 50-60 hours into it.
I love this! As a musician, I often get lectured about over-working myself when I'm pulling 80 hours a week. I always find this silly, because I also have big periods of my life where I only work 20 hours a week, or where I only work 40. I never feel burnout, because there is always a light at the end of the tunnel for me.
I truly believe John Carmack cannot answer a question with a single yes or no.
He's got the key to not being burned out. He is working a lot of hours, but he knows not to go past what his brain can deal with in a given day. A lot of people get fatigued because they go past that point and work to exhaustion.
The weird thing is I have hyperproductive periods where I smash everything then a 'cool down' period where I have to relax my mind a bit. I can get 80% of my hardest daily tasks done in 2 hours. It's weird but incredibly productive for us professional "problem solvers".
I had that same Diet Coke addiction while coding at one point. That was hard to break.
This is all great and inspiring. But what do you do on that 7th day? How does John Carmack take a break? What’s a ‘B’ day like? We often hear about productive days, but I wish there were more out there on the structure of an off day. I doubt he rolls out of bed at 1PM, smokes a doob and watches Star Trek. He probably wakes up early and makes the most of his break - I’d love to hear him and other inspirationally productive people describe their break days.
Just some light programming hahah
I don't think Carmack ever takes a break, he just thrives on constant work.
His metaphor isn't wrong... but none of the work we're doing is to literally save the world. The stakes for what 99.9% of us do aren't that high. It's not about doing more work or being more productive, but maintaining a healthy work-life balance. I do disagree that more hours means working harder - you can work hard in 40 hours and still get the job done.
He's a classic workaholic.
I feel like there is a balance between efficiency and productivity, but not only does it depend on the individual but the level of passion in the task being done. No substitute for hard work, but burnout is real.
13:35 "8-9 Diet Cokes a day - makes the success stay!"
This guy it's a legend
it's?
@@Terrible_fate Yes grammar nazi, it´s a legend
God damn, I find so many things in common with John. I am also jealous same as him about the guys who have all the time in the world to make a programming marathon. And I just found out that we BOTH know we mean business when we open the can of coke when it comes to programming haha I can definitely say John is my hero.
Kids.......Imagine your dad being John Carmack! 🤯
Another great programmer from whom I will definitely not take any diet advice 🙂.
If he wants to work 100 hours a week, that's his prerogative. 40 hours a week is not a part time job and I would never push myself to do more than that.. Some of us have lives John.
Works hard but not in a dumb way like many people do, that's why he said once: "when it's done" and that's a very important sentence for both his mental and physical health and also for us to have high quality products in the end. If someone is whining about the 40 hours work week its not because of overwork, its because he doesn't really like that work and even if he had 32, 24, 16 hours of work per week he would still complain. Of course hard manual labor is a different matter because there should be limits on how much you should stress your body and its very dependent on how hard and dangerous the work is, but here they talk about mental work.
Yeah I’m a solo developer building my own business and video game. I do everything myself. I basically put in most hours of the day, week after week, month after month, year after year.
I don’t think I have a particularly strong work ethic. I would be lazy in just about any other context. There’s just no way I would put in that effort for someone else without the full rewards and potentials that come with building for oneself. Your mindset fundamentally changes when you work for yourself, such that it becomes apples and oranges, even if the main activities seem the same from the outside perspective.
i doubt jc will read these comments, but im curious of his opinion on henry ford's introduction of lower working hours increasing productivity, and uk holidays in the victorian era increasing productivity...
i say this as someone who has worked an amazing abundance of over hours and believes the same as is put across here.
I can so relate to sitting with a grimace or even be in mental pain and be happy :)
for most men (males) , working longer more strenuous effort, can be more productive over time with proper focus and rational approach to the problem being addressed.
Some people game for 16 hours straight, but they refuse to find any job that would require them to work for more than 8.
I think it's all about priorities in life.
Nothing more, nothing else.
Heck, in my country of Portugal, leftist parties are talking about 7h/day, 35h/week being the maximum by law.
That is literally insane.
Carmack is the definition of being on the ball
Working 40 hours a week is fine when you are still stuck doing stuff that you shouldn't be doing in the first place. When you actually do what you love and what is important that entire consideration goes straight out the window. As it should.
But well, time is limited. And many people do not love only one thing 100% and don't care about other things. Maybe you love your job, but still you have a wife, children, hobbies and some duties like cleaning up your flat, organizing things etc
@@Jack-4242 A lot of the pitiful shit normal people waste their time on is either unnecessary or can be delegated. And don't get me started on the co dependent dumpster fire you people call relationships.
He is not wrong. More than 8 hrs is more total productivity and less productivity per hour. But still more overall. It really comes down to whether people SHOULD be expected to put in those kind of hours.
Yeah if you’re probably paying people for that level of work great but not if you pay them $45,000 a year and then expect them to work 80 hours a week so you can make $1 billion for your shareholders that’s bullshit
14:00 yes, but that's not the only factor you must weight when making public policies. 40-hours for a living wage is reasonable, if you want to work beyond that and be productive and happy that's great, but your livelihood shouldn't depend on that extra effort.
My brain turns to mush after 4 hours lol. 4 hours of concentration and the rest is just muddling about. And that's on the days I actually kick off, often I just fiddle around without getting deep at all
Did I hear correctly that he is still drinking 8 or 9 diet coke a day???
You can sprint for a while. I do better work being less than 40. More mistakes at 50.
Life is a marathon.
Trauma happens at 70 to 90 hours. Unless you are doing it in your own I don't think it's healthy to push people that far
People fought for the weekend and gaming work culture is toxic. We are not the norm in terms of work ethic and shouldn't pressure others. 😉
Carmack has a great radio voice. Should try out some voiceover work.
I can work for about 8 hours a day coding and/or reading and/or writing but if I do that for too many consecutive days I start to become very irritable and unhappy. Someone will say something that I think is stupid and it will literally hurt my head to process it. I'll then spend five to ten minutes replaying it in my head, trying to work-out all the reasons that it didn't make sense, which is often extremely complicated. It can sometimes take me few months to really understand all the ways that what someone said didn't make sense. It is like my brain is seeing that person's sentence as a coding or philosophical problem that I have to resolve. I'm not even that high on the autistic spectrum.
I am one of those people who can do 12 plus hours on only 3 to 4 hours sleep. I find that if I'm really enjoying the work, it is hard to stop, and on those days I can easily reach 16 hours. If I am finding the work tedious though, I will normally clock out after 10 hours. If there are deadlines, I will generally push myself much harder, though. Always on my terms though. I do have a family, so weekends for me are sacred, so pushing myself throughout the week allows me that luxury.
Carmack's advice while well intentioned, isn't universal. Working > 8 hours a day makes sense if you love your job over most other things. But, most of us don't.
Right, that's the absolute difference. People who love what they do may not understand. Just like those not enjoying their work may not understand being tightly aligned with your work as a person.
He admits that it's not for everyone. I think if people are free to do what they want and are not forced to do something repetitive for 8 hours a day, or worse: something useless, many more people would do their own projects for 12 hours a day. Most people are not lazy but alienating work makes you empty.
@@rolyars i think most people are very lazy and would rather not work majority of their day if they had the option. source: retirement, house wives, homeless, overweight. Not to say it's wrong to be lazy, physical and mental efforts require high caloric investments, so we are kinda programmed to conserve energy by evolution. Those who were too active, died of starvation until quite recently.
@@vytasffbismarck7001 that's what many people think but it is not at all what happened in experiments with basic income. Retired people are just extinguished and I would argue housewives do work hard. Also very rich people who could do nothing usually do all sorts of things. Some just party but most don't. Most people want to achieve things, compete, leave a legacy and basic survival is not the trigger to do it. An example of this is open source software, such as Linux. The most used operating system was produced without financial incentive. It's when you have your basic needs that you can do something for yourself and that's when working hard comes natural.
@@rolyars i think you are mistaking ~5% of highly motivaded people with majority. majority is for sure lazy
John inspired me to order a pizza. Mind you, I never do that
I think what he’s trying to say is whatever works best for you.
Looking good for 51
Holy shit I wish I could relate to never having burnout. Maybe something about not doing marathon programming sessions...he might be onto something.
8-9 diet coke a day. Holy molly that’s a lot of caffein. I was wondering how he could work for that much
Cant imagine the kind of damage that does to your body
256mg of caffeine for 8 diet cokes. 1 bang energy drink is 300mg.
If he's drinking with aspartame - no bueno. Aspartame is metabolized to formaldehyde, which, let's just say isn't good for the body. We need Mr. Carmack around, he needs a drink with erythritol.
How are his teeth 🫣?
@@mudranick7064 There's 46mg of caffeine in a 12oz can of diet coke so 8 would be 368mg which is just slightly below the recommended upper limit of 400mg per day.
Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast.
Nice to hear that someone else is addicted programming with Diet Coke. And he’s still alive.
Thanks!
Company now wants workers to do more work to make more profit. It’s you choosing if you support it, how do you benefit from it when you get more and more responsibility on a same pay grade
I think that the best work is done by my subconscious. When the code appears in my head, I type it in -- as long as the Muse keeps delivering it. But beyond a certain point it's better to step away and let the subconscious make more connections. I'm not a big fan of 10 hour days, you can be programming even when you aren't sitting at the computer typing. Debugging, on the other hand, happens until it works.
I was always like this when I was a programmer, I found quite a lot of the time that I needed to let my subconscious get work on an idea or a solution. I could spend a couple of days in the office watching UA-cam videos and 'dicking around', most people would think of this as slacking off, but I always wrote my best code when given chance allow an idea to gestate. Once it did, I'd often bang it out in a 16-20 hour flurry of activity.
I admire his work, but at the same time, working for yourself and your own company, on a project that you've chosen, and getting a big chunk of the profit for the result is different than working for standard salaries.
maybe when the model in some of the European countries where every worker at the company is also a shareholder of the company, more ppl would be more invested in their work and make better products because they have more of an incentive to care.
8 or 9 diet cokes a day? Geez. I feel guilty if I have one.
9:45 That's what I do right now.
After developing one of my games for 2 months or so in a row... I always get burned out.
So I switch to my other, different game and boom... motivation is through the roof again! :D
I can only recommend this approach! :)
This guy sounds disappointed about only programming for 12 hours a day
So funny - I see this guy walking around in my neighborhood a lot. He dresses like it's the early 2000s and often wears large headphones. I had no idea he was this smart and famous!!
Really?
Lex: "I listen to brown noise while I code". Honestly that's the weirdest thing I've heard in these interview clips so far. 😂
I've been a developer for 38 years and I've worked with all sorts of developers who all seem to listen to some kind of music (except one guy who listened to talk radio and radio plays). I listen to a wide variety of music but when I'm really looking to trip out into maximum flow it's trance, hardcore jungle techno and that kind of dance music. I might have to try brown noise though, a novel choice!
Great interview. 😁👍
Ive found brown noise good on days where I felt more drained and I just needed smoother atmosphere , but I dont do code for games I do art so it might be different , but when you do filler type work like rendering illustration trance is the way to go , but for more foundational work like figuring cleaning up your comps and fixing your anatomy /foreshortening , picking right light scenario , more easy on the brain stuff can help if Im stuck and frustrated
For me it's Dutch Thunderdome Gabba Schrantz while slamming methcrack every 3 hours.
@@madsteeez that's an interesting approach to coding. 😂 I always wondered if that toothless dude downtown who shouts "Alexa, lights off" at the street lights was a former software developer and now I think I have the answer...
I think I have a new Hero ❤
As someone who is on the opposite end “rockstar programming”, I totally agree and need to change lol.
Lex is falling asleep while John is killing it. Next time you need to powder up a bit, Lex.
There is something a little disconcerting about someone who is disproportionally calm, like wake up and respect the situation lol
Legend, man who made revolution In gaming, unlinited source of inspiration for me personaly! Hail to the King!
He looks pretty good physically, seems he dont have scoliosis or kyphosis, after all that sitting in front of a monitor.
he also did sports
Really like John. His degree of focus and humility are ones to aspire to.
Working yourself to death might make you achieve more but is it worth it? I mean, I'd love to create a hit game but I'd rather have modestly successful game and a family that I spend time with regularly.
Working long hours when you are obsessed and pationed about something it's ok. You might be missing out on so many other things but that's your choice. However, people who are at this level of working shouldn't enforce this behavior into others. Most people aren't pationed or obsessed about their job. In fact, most people can't wait to get home and do something else.
I love that kind of childlike outlook on wealth.
He got rich and bought pizza and videogames, not fast cars, gold chains and loose women.
Lol guess you've never heard about his Ferraris?
@@ProfessorDingus priorities pizza and videogames first, Ferrari's later
Cope a little harder because he bought multiple Ferraris
@@stopthecap8810 [AckchyuallyMeme]
@@ProfessorDingus if you read about him you'll find out he was also modding those ferraris so he wanted those for a technical reason just like a proper nerd. Also gave away in the earliest days of "pro gaming" to the winner of some quake competition. The other reason is obviously speed, these type of guys like high peformance stuff in both games and real life :) And indeed having access to pizza and sports cars is definitely "childlike", he didn't buy these for the "high social status" reason that most of "grown up" people buy for (they often don't even know how to properly drive and service these cars).
Work smarter before you work harder.
John Carmack - I don't try to put in too many hours.
Also John Carmack - 12 hours is perfectly fine.
It depends what your job is, I suppose. In my job, for example, 12 hours is around the sweet spot for daily productivity, considering I wear quite a few hats and need to be on multiple tasks on any given day which are crucial for the bigger machine to keep on running, so to speak. I prefer to start a day with nothing left over from the previous one. Just feels better, and more progressive.
The thing is that he is obsessed with work trying to make everything perfect, he is not like a normal developer, he really tries his best... if something doesn't work the way he wants, it is still there until his head shuts down and he falls asleep.
8 hours of work a day, 40 hours a week is too much, 6 a day, 30 per week would be ok, if you are working only for money. If you are passionate about your work and love it so much, there are no limits.
This confirms my own beliefs about efficient work and strengthens them. Thank you!
I only feel burnout working with people, i can easily work 12 hours just with machines no problem, retail is hell
At 29 yrs old, I try to get more sleep, more than ever, so I cut back on working longer hours.
He is like appolo in game development
Actually the most intriguing thing about John Carmack is how he can stand the taste of diet Coke!? That s*it tastes like puke and he drinks 8 or 9 a day!? What a legend.....
I knew that DC was the real franchise!
If you want to work 60-80 hours go ahead, this should not be expected of others.
100 hours a week with 8 hours sleep leaves you 26 hours for eating, washing, changing and toilet.
It's incredibly re-affirming to hear that even the biggest big shots in my field struggle with the same menial BS about how to plan your life to be ever so slightly more productive lol
8 or 9 diet cokes a day. Wow.
Carmack drinking 8 cans of diet coke a day and being "just fine" is like that dude telling you smoking cigarettes ain't that bad because his pops smoked 2 packs a day and died at 87 years old
I mean, the phosphoric acid isn't great for your bones and teeth, but it's nowhere near as bad as regular coke, let alone cigarettes
I admire Carmack, but that analogy on "working more hours" is just dumb. Do you prefer to get a surgery from a well rested surgeon or the one that is on the last hours of his 24 hs shift? Do you prefer that the programmer that writes the code for the asteroid interceptor is on his optimal form or that he make the code on a hackathon of 3 days without sleep?.
That's not what he's saying. He's simply saying more hours gets more work done. You don't have to marathon it, simply working 6x10 hour days gets more done then the regular 5x8.
Yes, I'd like to be worked on by a well-rested surgeon. The trouble is, so would everyone else, and there aren't that many well-rested surgeons in existence. Using the work of people who are performing optimally is a luxury that most of us can't afford. And if an asteroid impact is imminent, it's a luxury we really can't afford.
You can look at it either way around: As a customer, if you want people working at their maximum efficiency, you need to have more people (which costs money) or wait longer (costing time). As a worker, if you work your maximally efficient work day, you'll be out-accomplished by someone who works slightly less efficiently but way more hours.
you have to really love your job to want to work 60+ hours a week. I defiantly don't love my job that much
I love my job and I'm perfectly happy only working 40 hours a week. Life is more important than work.
Steve jobs overworked for decades and died at 55. I'd rather relax and live to 75.
His worst work is everyone else's best work.
The medical one is a bad example because excessive hours in hospitals leads to increased mistakes and actually kills people. In the case of the interceptor you should rather be looking for more people to assist, because again tired people make more mistakes and in the case of the interceptor that could result in a trajectory error which renders the device useless.
Working excessive hours is unhealthy, but at least if what you're producing is a game then at worst your mistakes probably result in a crash rather than killing people.
8 or 9 diet cokes a day? Yoooo.
I can be focused only 4 hours by day. Carmack has 3 times my working capacity, it's insane.
It's all about practice and habits man. It's like when you go to the gym and see a guy lifting unbelievable weight - it's not like he was born this way but rather he's worked his way up to it over time, and it's exactly the same with mental work. You can get to Carmack's level of mental work if you're dedicated enough and add to your workload regularly in small doses.
8 to 9 coke per day ? Crazy!!
I am glad that Mister Carmack has an inkling of what the limitations of his thought process is,and how he realizes that the wetware biological CPU called the brain requires downtime for steady productivity. I am an older guy who stocks shelves at night,and I am well aware of the toll the job takes on my body,and the maintenance of my body demands the immobility of it just to heal,and I try to eat a higher grade of slop my ambition and skill can derive. It's all math at the base of it,equations of one's physical resources and their response to specific conditions.
You are your Statistics.
John meant the tiktok-er nurses?
absolutely obliterating his gut microbiome with 8-9 diet cokes a day..
Nobody knows that for sure. The gut microbiome is still a largely unknown place.
Don’t think about what all the Democrats are saying today about Elon Musk Ryan Twitter and telling them they need to come to the office and work hard how everybody’s calling him a terrible person and they’re all quitting because they don’t get to just drink wine all day
I have to disagree with carmack here. Simply compare european to american work culture. There is many companies with parts in europe and part in the us to be able to make some very telling comparisons. Europeans on average work less hours and have way more vacation days, and yet they get the same amount done, often even more. Sure if you work on a passion poject like he did 60 hour weeks maybe sustainable, but if it is just work you need to recharge your batteries. And the comparisons he makes, scientists working in research, doctors woeking in hospitals, those are all jobs you work since you have a passion for this. So it is not comparable to a job to put food on the table.
Carmack has worked most of his life on passion projects. He hasn't really had to work a 9-5 wage job like most do.
One group that absolutely should not be working excess hours is doctors. Passion cannot make up for the known deficits that occur due to fatigue, and in the case of medicine it literally kills patients.
@@Ian-eb2io lol go to any hospital and find out how many hours residents have.
that is a lot of diet coke to drink every day.
8 or 9 diet cokes a day. Good god, and he's still alive.
what exactly is so unhealthy on diet coke?
@@pietlebrun5943 They thicken your blood and make you prone to heart/vascular anomalies. I get two or three, but nearly a case of them?