Warhammer 40K Army Win Rates - Early Look at Post-Update Winners and Losers
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
- Let's talk about the recent metawatch for Warhammer 40K and take a quick look at some early numbers!
Fully recommend these for keeping up with 40K tournament stats
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- 40K Stat Check www.stat-check.com/the-metaht...
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- 40K Stats Centre - 40kstats.goonhammer.com/top-4...
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0:00 Intro
0:30 40K Metawatch Video
3:13 Army Win Rates - Lower End
6:48 Army Win Rates - Mid Table
8:39 Army Win Rates - Upper End
10:31 Army Win Rates - Initially Top Armies
12:50 Top Event Performers So Far...
14:30 Outro - Ігри
This game really badly needs *rule* changes to fix the problem a lot of these armies have.
You have to make Tyranids more ferocious and kill that stupid Biovore tactic.
You have to lock out divergent chapters to compliant detachments and make divergent detachment not-hot-garbage.
You can't expect T6 to prop up Custodes when the only killy stuff people bring is AT.
You can't fix Admech by lowering points. You kill Admech *when* you lower points.
Just, c'mon GW. the community is loud and proud to point this stuff out. Why are you keeping the blinders on???
Tbh we would need CORE Rule changes too, not only army rules.
They don't want to update datasheets because they are locked out to those who buy the codex's only. Even though datasheet updates is what the game needs.
@@NZDivine
That's factually not true. They change datasheets in every other update.
They are too arrogant to listen to their customers.
@@JIMMYBOE1
To be honest, from their perspective: why would they care? People buy their sht anyways.
Thanks for showing me what metawatch didnt wanna show off the other day.
What are they actually doing unless it is reporting on the meta?
@@LordNerfherder pretending everything is good?
Which is weird, since those that Care about competitive won't buy it and those who don't.. well don't care in the first place.🤨
@@Errtuabyssshareholders want only good news
@@BloodyArchangelus shareholders don't look at random articles about the state of the meta, much less watch Videos about it. Thats what the reports are for.
If anything it's good PR for fanboys that actually believe in what the company is saying.
@@LordNerfherder "the meta is healthy, stay on the lookout for more info on our latest models were going to reveal soon"
There, I just saved you from watching any more metawatch articles from GW.
To be fair, the reason they didn't give win rates (according to stat check) is that at the bottom, Deathwatch (25%) and Dark Angels (34%, 28% without Ironstorm) it shows that the balance is so hopelessly bad for some factions that their goal of having everyone from 45% to 55% is laughable.
Man i scrolled till i saw someones comment about this and actually wonder how it has gotten this bad.... I understand that Ad mech and custodes got hit with their codex but when you look at stat check it is just so depressing to see DA and Deathwatch at 34& and 25% right now.
Just gutted
Im on mobile right now so I cant check but keep in mind the sample size is incredibly small for the less popular factions. Iirc deathwatch winrate is based on literally 1 player playing 4 games. One more win and Deathwatch would be a 50% winrate.
@@Very_Unwise Very true, the player numbers for Deathwatch are very low, and quite low for DA now. But it's a self fulfulling prophecy to a degree. If the rules are worthless, no one runs them in tournament (which is why there's so few DA games on stat check compared to what you'd expect).
To be fair, Dark Angels and Deathwatch have a very peculiar thing going on: If their winrates are lower than basic Space Marines, then yeah, sure, their unique stuff is obviously not working out, but um, they could have just played a regular space marine list.
It's not like they should actually be in 25% if they're being played by people who are trying their hardest to win. They just, uh, aren't. They're being played by people taking things more casually at the tournaments.
This is actually a problem base space marines are suffering from too. Their winrates are scuffed because people playing Base Space Marines aren't the true 100% tournament grinding sweatlords. If they were, they'd play Black Templars, because that's the best flavour of marine.
Divergent chapters not being locked to their detachments was a huge fucking mistake, frankly.
I think the orc and CSM codex are prime examples of a well written codex that has a lot of detachments to choose from which keeps players from being bored and offers a lot of viable choices when it comes to balanced detachments, and I think every codex moving forward should be based on the quality and Content that both of these codices were written.
Please use the same rules, writing team, moving forward or at least promote them to senior or lead rules development that should be included or have their hands in every moving forward as you can tell there are stark differences in the quality of the factions whenever there codex is launched
I stongly believe that the problem isn't the creativity and skill of the people writing the rules but the guidelines, time restrains and differences between factions.
Most negative changes for Custodes where prescribed AS an reaction to the situation 6+ months ago, which where already fixed with a "Rules commentary" almost as Long ago as when it was a problem. With how much of the Rules seem go against their own context it looks like a forced edit instead of how they where written in the first place.
the Codex being garbage is the consequence of that. And, just like with Disney, the reaction of management to negativ Inception is.. even more top-down meddling.
@@Errtuabyss I just think some things for Custodes were like the fact that Custodes needed a small nerf at the time, and so whoever was designing the Codex was making it pretty chill.
I just think -- in hindsight, I thought they were going to be okay. I was wrong I guess.
I think they've made Codex books for years and should have learned this lesson by now, but if we aren't there yet they should absolutely take a page out of Chaos, Ork Codex etc. that have at least a lot of ways to play and it is super fun. Then after you've designed a good Codex you can balance on points cost, or on small erratas.
If we had a week or two of Custodes absolutely destroying everyone with a busted Codex, would it have been so bad? Maybe slightly? But now they have to deal with months of being garbage.
That admech score needs to drop so that they actually fix the faction. If it's at 49% they will just ignore us again lol
Same problem necrons had in 9th
I mean they did say they were gonna do some big changes to them next update... now is it gonna be good changes? I don't know. I'm not sure it could get worse but they'd find a way.
49 is ok lol. Have you seen deathwatch?
@@NikolayMIA it's not about winrate with Admech it's the playstyle and how bad almost every detachment is. One of the detachment rules is Automaton units GAIN the army rule. That's it! Three units locked off from the army rule gain it! That's the most, ass backwards thing I've seen. A couple good players (and it is a couple with how little people play them) propping up the win rate means little to the average player.
Look at the T'au with the Kroot. The Kroot don't have the army rule so in there detachment they get two rules to buff them. Neither of which is gain the army rule since it wouldn't help them much.
The monkey paw curls, and you receive a 20% points drop across every unit in the army.
I would like to see the divergent chapters that have supplements, including their own detachments, having their own win rates when using their own rules from the actual space marine codex.
I think that tells a better story about whether a chapter such as dark angels has a detachments at all that are viable without having to consistently rely on taking detachments from the main space marine book which should not be the intention whenever a divergent supplement is released.
you can see exactly this by filtering statcheck meta dashboard by detachments
And spoiler, without Ironstorm, according to stat check, DA are on 28% win rate. So truly DA lists are unplayable outside of casual play.
@@Caranelen And I bet Space Wolves are even lower than that. Right now we're being propped up by the Stormlance TWC
@@dracothedragonyoutube4376 For what it's worth, stat check says 60% (Gladius at 63%, Russ at 50%), although sample size is very low, so take it with a pinch of salt.
The only inbetween kind of balancing I can think of that might be lazy but help a bit. is that divergent chapters get totally different points to encourage their identity but allowing all detachment choices. For example terminators not only are abit cheaper for Dark angles, but standard terminators just are deathwing terminators by default. Encouraging the use of heavy metal units and veterans or fast strikers for raven wing. But making the more rank and file or odd ones they wouldn't normally use pricier. It's definetly not a perfect solution, but it is a lazy one.... and we know GW will be lazy if it can.
Regarding Deathwatch. I really hate the "there is no info, therefore we cannot change anything" argument. When GW broke Deathwatch at the start of the edition. lot of competitive players jumped on the bandwagon for a very short period of time. Then "Poooof" the army was nerfed very hard and suddenly nobody played them at tournaments anymore. If GW ends up rolling the Deathwatch into an Agents of The Imperium book. It pretty much shows that GW messed up their initial release, didn't even try to fix them. Then blamed the community (that GW designed to revolve around competitive play) for not taking Deathwatch to tournaments. If you solo out and summarise Deathwatch updates/changes/timeline so far in 10th. Its actually incredibly terrible product design/release, with then absolutely shockingly bad levels of communication to the Deathwatch community. People play the army, just at home, not at tournaments. And basing everything on what the top% of players do and say at tournaments is just completely the wrong way to go about balancing the hobby. Your just balancing the top% of players. And ruining everyone elses hobby.
Fr
They literally ruined the daemon ally rules for csm just to appease competitive players meanwhile screwing over people like me trying to play fluffy word bearers lists lmao
My Blood Axe Klan Orks are 100% unplayable in 10th, due to how GW fucked up the Kommandos & Tank Bustas data sheets.
Competitive try-hards have ruined 40k for me. There's just no fun customisation left, everything is bland, boring set-in-stone datasheets, options don't matter anymore, fixed unit sizes is such absolute garbage...
I played a half dozen games with my DG initially, got trounced in 2 turns at most... my WE's are beyond boring being just 3 unit options & a bunch of characters. My SW's are themed around Sven Bloodhowl's Great Company, so no Thunderwolf Cav, just lots of Bloodclaws, Skyclaws, Swiftclaws & Speeders, etc... (and the Russ detachment is vying for worst detachment in the game!!)
10th is the most garbage product GW has ever shat out
Jesus, dark Angels are behind space marines… how the flying hell does that happen 😂😅😭
They lost a lot of data sheets that went to legends and the old data sheets from ninth edition ended up being worse, including the three detachments, which are pretty bad.
Also, the inner circle companions are wielding to handed great weapons with an AP of minus one and the other day I looked at the dark commune, which is just cultists with two of them wielding great swords and for some reason they have an AP of -2 lol… embarrassing…
Meanwhile, age of Sigma four is getting a lot of praise for their new rules system in addition to the new models which are often much better looking and updated compared to 40K which has a lot of units that are still almost 20 years old and there’s no excuse that these haven’t been updated to plastic with the revenue GW brings in…
I think players are getting a little tired of the same old stuff when 40 K is their flagship yet it still has a lot of work that needs to be done on updating their models and their rules team is getting their butts kicked by the AOS rules team …
Worthless detachments (as in none of them are even remotely OK, they even nerfed the index one which no one played) and datasheets (barring Azrael and Darkshroud). Litteraly the only viable build is Ironstorm Azrael.
Almost all DA-only units are melee-based, but VERY mediocre to bad. And our detachments do nothing to help with close combat.
Nothing synergises.
Even taking a standard SM force with Azrael (our only useful character) blocks you from using other chapters characters, so comes at a cost.
Bad detachments focused on bad units with bad character support.
Imho, termies need to be better out of the box, we need a way to improve close-combat AP without having to use Gladius, and Unforgiven detachment rules based on battleshock just need a full re-write.
The only way we can ever balance divergent chapters with compliant is to split them completely. We've got three of the 4 slaves to darkness, mono god CSM armies. Split off the BA, DA, SW, and BT from being able to use the compliant detachments. It also allows for individual balancing which can only ever be a good thing
BA's list generally are using their own detachment. BTs does quite often as well. The issue is if the divergent chapters own detachments are crap of course people will use the marine ones. The Space Wolves and DAs detachments are just bad.
@@tajj7That's the point, though. They will never fix the DA detachments as long as we can use SM detachments to prop ourselves up.
If we had to rely only on our own, yes, WRs would tank in the short term, but those detachments would soon get fixed..
they would have give us more than 3 trash deatchments ( I play with deathwing detachment and the +1 wound is good, bit that's only on a single objective, I can delete the one thing easily enough but with a hyper elite army and not many units that's not enough) greenwing detachment rules is literally useless but has solid strats, but that is just not fun, and raven wing I haven't really tried but fall back and shoot with bikes is ok I guess
Except the mono God chaos marine armies have all ended up being one trick ponies because of that split off. If anything they should be recombined back into the main codex
@@NeloBladeOfRannithere are lots of other armies that are one trick ponies. I think the answer is adding variety to that one trick.
Tau for example have exactly one trick.
The “one trick pony” isn’t bad if it’s balanced well and there’s some play nuance. I am a TSons player and really happy with where we are now from an internal balance perspective - we can play scarabs, or rubrics. We can play with some high strength shooting to back us up or we can go all-in on cabal points, and they finally feel playable beyond “Magnus + all the rubrics + characters”
Blood Angels doing well? I guess that happens when you get actual detachment buffs instead of just point changes.
Custodes are dead and all top competitors are nerfed.
It's pretty clear that they didn't want to talk about the Custodes drop. The codex doesn't really offer much over the Index at all, given that there was nothing new added to the faction and everything else was essentially really over the top nerfs.
So four above the target area, and eight below the target area, with three well below and two in the thirties.
Good god.
Thinking back to the beginning of 10th, it's a little wild seeing Grey Knights so high up
I blame the learning curve. Their mechanic was pretty wild, but really powerful once players figured out how to use it.
Yeah I’m a player and start of 10th was a real struggle. However the army has had very little messing about. Only DK/GMNDK git a full change. Then points to balance. I think the issues that causing there win rate to go up as much is people are actually avoiding us out side of 9” so we don’t mist. Causing there charges to fail as much as ours giving us a counter.
Part of the early problem was just how costly everything was. But there was also the learning curve to get around. Now we're at the opposite end where they've become problematic, and I feel like the only ways they'll really get them in check is another points increase to dreadknights and an actual nerf to Vortex of Doom on the Brotherhood Librarians. It is so strong that despite having other good character options, they'll never be taken over a mortal wound bomb that can just remove big threats with no interaction. Post nerf, that's still 360 points for a trio of models that are going to typically do at least 4 mortal wounds, and each have the potential to do up to 12.
As a GK player myself. The hardest thing was processing the Battlefield and learning what happened when I took x/y/z. It was quickly evident that we did secondary objectives well. The Dreadknights where significantly underpowered and now I think they are right because they can be eliminated with concentration.
I'm in a league in a couple of Weeks and in 24 players I am the only grey Knight player so not buying that more people are playing the faction. Personally I think that those that play them are good players and know their faction (I don't include myself here) and lack of knowledge from the opposite side of the table plays well into our hands.
We are exactly where we should be in regards to points bar the 155pt Ven Dread!!
We don't have too many options and rely heavily on abilities. That's successful as we know when and where now.
The Vortex of Doom is not overpowered either it's our only REAL mortal wound weapon. But agree that perhaps it should be once a game. 120pts is a lot for a lib so we do pay for it.
I'm glad we are competing and I think our codex will balance us again.
We are the Hammer.
GK are my main army and I just haven't enjoyed playing them in 10th. Too many personal choices were taken away and I just don't like having to rely on teleports to score anything. Its a great mechanic, but I personally wish it would get nerfed and we could get something like smite back for all psyker units.
Blood angels are up there?? Wow congrats to them, I’m surprised yet pretty happy to see that
They are a difficult army to run well, but with a competent pilot they absolutely thrash anything you meet on the board.
@@troublemaker9899 seriously asking as a don’t play BA, is the list balanced or more one trick pony like Space Wolves cavalry spam or DA Ironstorm, etc
@@GM-rs2fv Jump Packs. Even after the nerf DC with Jumps are still used and are just an instakill for anything they touch. There's no chance when BA gets their Codex that the current DC stay the way they are.
Tale as old as Dante, jump packs for days and running from cover to cover.
I think slightly skewed because one of the BAs tournament wins recently was an Ironstorm list that was only really 'Blood Angels' because it used two Baal Predators. Pure Sons of Sanguinius and they are probably just around or below the 50%. Also people are switching to Jump assault intercessors and assault intercessors, those both went down in points over the last two points updates and BAs can make those chainswords 5A at S6, with AP2 if you use a San Priest. The points drops to those units absorbed some of the Death Company and San priest increases, so I doubt people's lists went up that much, they maybe dropped a unit of DC and switched in some Jump intercessors. I'd probably say BA's require terrain, if the terrain is a bit thicker they will absolutely smash you off the table with heavy hitting melee jump pack units, if it's more open then T4 2W marines die very easily. Custodes being worse also helps all the other melee armies, especially without the fights first options. You can see World Eaters have improved as well.
I know had 9th its ups and downs but at the end they managed to get it somewhat balanced, almost all armies where in the 45-55% bracket. But now in 10th, which they made a big deal how they shrimplified everything, which means it should be easier to balance everything they shit the bed so hard. From the fact that some codices get obviously more love, while the rest has to eat shit, to not even balance the codices internally. Admech has to skitarii and chicken spam for the 4th year in row, the only thing that got added in the lists are the breachers because they are the only datasheet that can get some reliable dmg out.
Grey Knights are one of the cheapest army to play in 40k (3 x Combat Patrol), their small number of models cover all phases (move, shoot, fight , psychic), free core, army, detachment rules and data sheets, easy to paint (spray paint with silver). Finally, their lore is awesome -- Geneseed from the Emperor, Psykters, Teleporting to save humanity and then disappearing ("Who was that masked man ?"), a planet-wide bell that Rings on Terra every time a Grey Knight dies. Awesome.
I suspect the tyranid win rate to keep slowly going down further proving the point that we need more lethality and especially army rules updates. The scoring with biovores and such are the only reason the win rate hasn't dropped to the floor. Ask any Nid player and I wouldn't be surprised if many agree with me that Biovore scoring needs to be killed and everything else brought up to parity, rules and datasheets.
Plus the army is simply not fun to play when the best strategy is "dying efficiently" as I've seen many Nid players point out. On top of the aboved mention, some detachment rules need to be updated such as crusher stampede (main rule, a few enhancements and a few stratagems), synaptic nexus (some say it's a well rounded detachment but trust me, invasion fleet far outpaces it in this regard, detachment rule especially needs updating), endless swarm (really says something when orks do hoards better then we do unironically) and lastly assimilation swarm (more units need harvester keyword mainly).
The thing about Chaos Daemons is that everything is so squishy. Even greater daemons are saving on 4++ most of the time. That means that a 20 block of guardsmen are very dangerous to a greater daemon just by volume fire
Especially when they took away the lesser daemons ability to horde up like 💀
I don't believe these numbers at all.
@@kylewells6871 that’s fine you don’t have to believe them, see it for yourself in the index
The Space Marine points update was quite frankly pointless.
Er, what? You realise marines win or top 8 more often than anything else still?
PLEASE fix Deathwatch.
I'm very glad I got into this hobby with Leviathan and the Space Marine and Tyranids army I started to invest in as a result. It's been a rewarding experience on the table top.
Don’t let the negativity impact you. The internet is full of folks finding the worst aspects to sit on. I think both armies are fun and have some good options for sure
@@timunderbakke8756Agreed. I’ve mainly played Tyranids for years, and I’ve found 10th to be quite enjoyable. The Tyranids have plenty of options to deal with all unit types, you just have to be crafty with your builds in truly competitive games. Out of at least 20-30 10th edition games with my Nids so far, I can distinctly remember only two losses - one to the cracked Eldar at the beginning, and another to a combined Eldar/Tau force later on (the Harridan did not like the Tau’Nar).
I’ve played in two local tourneys, both with Nids. The first was 2-1, only taking that Eldar loss I mentioned. The second was 3-0 about a month ago, sweeping World Eaters and T Sons, and then edging out another T Sons force.
Stay strong - and bring Tyrannofexes!
The Space Marine problem can be fixed in a way they’ve already figured out. All those vehicles with “Black Templar” added to their name? Do that with every unit in the divergent chapters’ index/codex. That way you can tweak them per chapter without completely dumpstering the compliant chapters’ codex every 3-6 months. The divergent chapters also need their detachments ALL revamped. None of them are viable aside from Blood Angels, and even then that’s kind of suspect. My group is already pretty well on the way to bailing on GW’s rules and going with One Page Rules because the consistently bad decisions to try and balance things just has made the game no fun to play.
Really wondering if I’m still this bad or if I’m being held back by my first army being Space Marines.
I’ve played… idk, maybe 15 games.
I’ve won twice and had 2 instances where I was in a very favorable position when the game had to be cut short, so around 11 flat out losses.
Marines are very plain. Other armies have so much more going on. No its your army I'm in thr same position. I play well but my opponent is always (oh this unit can do this, oh it can do that) what can ours do?....shoot
Hi Jessie, space marines are a simple army to initially get started with but they have a high ceiling for mastering. They have so many different units and when gw issue nerfs and changes to the codex you may well find as a newer player that you may not have the compeative units to field. I have a large collection of marines but still don't have all the strongest units so I focus on trying to work out how I'm going to score primary and secondaries then once that's covered I build in stronger units to try to delete units that are going to score for the opponent. This has helped me win more than I lose in my local club. I'm not a tornement player so I don't have all the latest bells and whistles for my army. What I do notice a lot in my local club that players focus on trying to remove opponents models over scoring points. Whilst that's important it's the points that win the game not removing models (so I use a number of cheap weak units that can do the scoring whilst "scary" stuff distract the fire power away from them). Hope that helps and that I'm not telling you how to suck eggs. Good luck
I'm in a very similar place, but lucky enough to mostly play with friends so we tend to just razz on my marine's being awful xD (I'm no tourney level player either so take my anecdote with a pinch or two of salt)
Space Marines always feel like they're still designed to have re-roll Wounds from Oath of Moment - apart from a few tanks they universally have:
- Weirdly low strength
- Poor AP
- Lower than average Damage
Which was fine when they were given reroll hit and wound, you needed to balance that. But now they have reroll only hits with an already high ballistic skill, it just feels bad. It's why I feel Ironstorm is their most competitive detachment - it can actually kill a T10 unit without needing the entire army's combined firepower.
Sadly at the minute you either have to chase meta or just accept that until Games Workshop extracts their own heads from their Brown-Eye of Terror and makes some proper rules changes, non-divergent marines are just kinda bad xD
Potentially unrelated fact: it's very easy to 3D print Thunderwolf Cavalry and just yell "heck it we space wolves now". They're not dominant but being fast and hitting hard sure feels a lot more fun that "walk slow and carry an underpowered gun"
Hope it picks up for you
@@CrazypantsPlays I'm not building anything until they get their codex. Don't want to invest and get a dogcrap codex again like the dark angles one
@@ca11rl77 by the Emperor you're right.
Based on Dark Angels my poor Space Vikings are going to be rocking up on teacup poodles with foam hammers
*preemptively weeps into 13 foot long beard*
No DeathWatch changes makes me more inclined to believe the leaks that Agents of the Imperium, Death Watch and Grey Knights are getting rolled into 1 later this summer, hopefully they keep some kind of tag that still allows other imperium factions to take some of the units like they could before, otherwise Knights will be hurting for objective monkeys
Deathwatch could probably get rolled into Agents, but definitely not GK's as there's too much unique stuff there.
Plus, while they are the Chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus, the GK's are still very much their entity and function at arms length, whereas the Deathwatch tend to maintain closer ties with the Inquisitors of the Ordo Xenos.
Also their function of being more or less, hyper elite kill teams of a few squads vs. a full-on Chapter who maintain their own geneseed stocks, recruitment practices, traditions & beliefs, etc...
I'd love too see Deathwatch rolled into Agents and re-released as say, 3 sets of variant Kill Teams that revolve around a 'standard', 'fire support' & 'melee specialist' variants.
Custodies are very good in casual games, which invariably is against stuff that isn’t good more fluff and things that aren’t efficient get played but custodies casual lists are very close to the meta lists
In competitive play custodies wins are at 23%
This is as bad if not worse than admech in competitive play
I can't wait to see the win rates for Tau and CSM to update. How well is Tau going to do with a sidegrade for detachments, worse points, worse crisis suits, and the loss of Tetras? CSM seem to be a flat upgrade from their index, maybe Im wrong, but I can definitely see them being at least top 5.
It's insane how good Ork and CSM codexes are compared to everyone else's. It's like a different team wrote them
CSM Army Rule got nerfed, Index got nerfed, datasheets nerfed, new detachments may seem strong but have conditions and hoops to jump through. Nerfed Index is still top 3 in the book.
Great book for flavour and choice of playstyles, no where near the strength of the most over tuned detachments this edition.
Warp Talons are busted, nothing else is.
@@revandriel9233you're missing a trick if you think its just warp talons that are good, personally i wont even run we have much better options un the new book
@@chaosclg Which datasheets stand out to you?
@@revandriel9233 Isn't renegades a much better detachment? Seems like they get AP bonuses as opposed to just battle-shock and leadership test modifiers. Fellhammer doesn't really have anything offensive, which kinda sucks...Soulforged looks like it could be a VERY good detachment. Full hit rerolls within 3" of a warpsmith w/ addendum enhancement.
Could you do a video on playrate? Would love to see faction popularity compiled across tournaments.
Im just having so much fun with dark eldar
You know out of the 4 factions i thought about starting with and picking Aeldari, I'm feeling okay with.
just saying, they seem powerful, but it's because they're hard to play but they play very well
Your numbers are quite different to the Den of Fools run down, I thought you used the same dataset, but they have a 6 to 7 percent difference in some faction win rates.
They have major differences in tournament winners too.
Where was previous mentioned about admech rules changes? Can't find it
Are we using the iron storm 2 Baal predictor list for the blood angels ? If so the numbers might be a bit borked and are the space wolfs playing the sagas or somthing else ?
Its a bit confusing but the data works such that if you include a blood angels specific unit (like Dante) and win, that counts as a blood angels win, regardless of detachment. The Space Wolf winrate for instance is a result of players running loads of wolves (which is space Wolf specific) but by playing the storm lance detachment from the space marine codex (and not their "own" index saga detachment)
Grey knights and black templars are a real pain to play against! Especially with tau!
I suspect some custodes players may have jumped to Grey Knights, complete assumption but there win rate makes me wonder
I just started collecting DW a few weeks ago. I like the look of them. Sad that they don't perform well though.
Just un-nerf the special ammo for Deathwatch, please! That would likely be enough to bring them up to a reasonable place. It's not like they get unlimited CPs, so the ammo isn't going to be saturating the battlefield
They mostly just need a 20% points reduction across the board, everything costs more for literally no reason :/
The reason is gw are incompetence
its clear GW still does not know how to fix the game. its pretty laughable the disparity between some factions.
Chapters that are codex compliant such as white scars really need to have some kind of extra bonus since 10th edition chapters are really just how strong and how many characters you have.
There’s just no reason to take any chapters right now since they don’t get any chapter traits it’s based on characters
The chaos daemons being that high surprises me. Mostly monster mash or mono khorne? Haven’t kept tabs.
I think a very simple way to balance the divergent SM chapters is to make any chapter specific units illegal in vanilla SM detachments.
Only way to balance Space Marinaros is to completely prohibit chapters that have their own codexes from using detachs from regular SM codex or make separate codex for each SM chapter.
Otherwise this BS will continue.
Even though it's early days I wouldn't be surprised if GSC stays where it is, if not goes up. The points drops and new Battleline unit mission buffs will only make it stronger.
I’m wondering whether GSC or Sisters is going to get the codex A team
I'd say sisters are gonna get the good one. GSC was top meta the same time as custodes and look what happened to them...
Id argue they might get it over sisters, so far the imperium codexs have been really bad@@DuxDamnatio
Sisters are, there have been rumours that the codex is superb
ORKS ORKS ORKS ORKS
WAAAGH!!
Good point! 🧐
Waaagh!!!
They shouldn't measure Space Marines as a faction for win rate like this, they should rate each of the core Space Marine detachments as a faction.
Just like to point out yet again that Aggressors remain 40 ppm when Terminators are 35 and Ork Meganobz are 30. Inceptors are 43.33 ppm. The Invader ATV is 70 ppm for essentially a moving multi-melta. And GW wonders why SM are bottom tier.
Yeah, bro, I dont believe those idiots know how to do their job properly
As a Tyranids, Raven Guard, Deathwatch player, this edition has me depressed. Was building up Custodes cause I thought they were cool and were doing good on the table and now.... this.
What custodes being weak? ....I for one am shocked.
Custodes balancing this edition is crazy
They went from weak to very strong to weak again
also this video is wrong, it's more akin to 24% win rate in higher player ELO
My PR department advised me not to continue this joke further.
Lore accurate female custodians
Lore accurate DEI hires XD
Ironstorm will probably benefit from the meta adjusting to deal with Orks.
How Ironstorm could be good against 120 Boiz with 5+ivn
@@dawidkazmierczak7283 my point was that as people write lists that can handle 120 orks, inevitably they'll struggle to face the vehicles of ironstorm. Also, ironstorm can always take a couple of reapers and mow down orks.
For World Eaters the Custodes nerfs alone are probably worth a couple of percentage points.
The games workshop sales and marketing department said that they are balancing the game to make sure players have a fun and dynamic enviroment to competitively play in. Nerfing your favorite units to absolute dust, changing options to make them illegal and buffing other units or faction so you are forced to make major changes every quarter to have any shot at competitive.
Please. Disallow any new release for a quarter & until playtested and balanced by a neutral party.
Allow proxies if well made and clear what model they are.
This gives powers back to the players and games workshop might stop making too powerful releases on purpose and completely control the competitive wallets and game tables. They are ours.
sadly it is very true, but they just want to make money, the game is secondary , it is pay to win and it is not hobbyst-friendly behaviour , most ppl just dont see this cause they are new to this hobby or just want to win and are ok with this policy, real-long-term hobbyst - are minority and nobody cares what we think or feel , it is sad
Balancing And Army Power will return to where they belong IN THE HANDS OF THE PEOPLE!
I'd really like to see you make a video of the best detachments in the game, not just best armies.
Looks like I'll have to play SW Stormlance until I get my Lord of Skulls. The meta could be more balanced but for most of the armies I play I'm happy with their performance right now
Ide like to drop a bit about DEAMONS here, Fairly underrepresented, and a hard army to play because everything is kinda squishy, and since everything deepstrikes you can lose the game to making bad choices/not making a choice often.
A lot of other armies are bringing a lot of tanky things, to which deamons says, here is a lot of units with lethals, dev wounds, or oh that big ole deamon named Shalaxi, that just kinda erases single model units by looking at them funny.
The army can struggle a bit against horde, the new green tide ork lists are a bit much to handle if you dont funnel them in and keep multiple charges off your units, who charges first basically wins the matchup. And orks can be REALLY good at being the first to charge
I've played one 2k game as Khorne daemons against CSM. Got tabled in turn 2/3, because I just kept failing charges. Also, pre-nerf Abaddon oneshot Skarbrand...
@@anonamarth4291 Don't fail charges.
Auspex do you ever sleep? It seems like you upload at all hours of the day (and night) lol. Love the content!
I think he is AI
@@Merc89PSUNah, Mordian Glory played a game with him.
Unfortunatley the problem with certain factions *ahem* ad-mech *ahem* isnt the win rate, 49% is not bad, its the way the army plays at the moment thats the issue making the metawatch completely meaningless if GW are basing these supposed 'upcoming changes' on competetive win rates. As it is, the army rule just feels like an after thought and often makes little to no impact whatsoever after turn 1, most units have to be within 6" of a battleline unit to get the full benefit of thier data sheet abilities which means that there is no unit in the army that can operate fully independantly from skitarii, good job they're points cheap then because nothing in the army has any teeth to speak of in 10th so youre gonna have to put a crap ton of wounds on the table and use them to flood the objectives before your opponent can get there because you're going to struggle to remove their units from said objectives, especially as your army rule sure as hell wont do anything to help you
One thing GW needs to change is points for models that were increased because of old rules, such as devastating wounds causing mortal wounds. There are a lot of models that are overpriced due to old rules rn
Dark Angels probably don't need a complete rework, but their detachments are far too limited. If the Deathwing detachment has the Infantry keyword requirement removed from most of its rules, it will become a pretty solid set of rules
I had a match against my friend yesterday, I was tyranids he was necrons i won and it was my highest performing and most fun match, i was using unrelenting swarm
So are Astra Militarum doomed to a bottom tier existence and getting nerfed since people don’t know how to counter and cope with indirect? And thus the faction including there infantry elites and vehicles stay mid out of fear? Idk it’s just something I have seen as a pattern and from my local tournaments and casuals as well. If someone can help with this though about guard let me know what you think or just about guard in general even if supposedly in top tables they “can” do something with a hyper optimized list
Hey, look at the bright side, you aren't slumming it quite as much as us deathwatch players!
@@SkylarktheDragon I feel you, but it's not much of a bright side. Probably going to get our codex last again like in 9th (Thanks GW!), and guard has been basically at the bottom rung of 10th all edition.
@@RockyX123 I'd rather not have my Codex than the joke they gave Tyranids
Guard are only "bottom tier" if you're not very good at the game 🤷🏼♂️
@jacket2848 that's terrible reasoning and defeats the point of tiers. Yeah, if you're better than your opponent, obviously you're going to win.
i'd like to see a metawatch exclusively with space marines, i bet there is something to fix if you look closer into the faction
Add a comment...😢
For the long vigil.
As a Xenos player, Space Marines desperately need a tankiness buff, i blew White Scars up so bad my opponent surrendered in my second shooting phase. I was almost pulling punches
Tau still fighting to be considered "average" as always but at least there's a chance we might get upgraded to "above average"
Tau at 49% with cyclic spam and tetras. With those gone and a points increase I don’t think a couple more detachment options will be enough of a replacement, I think they will actually drop a bit.
Retaliation Cadre also looks to be dead when they release the new mission pack, as it doesn't contain any battleline units. That said, Mont'ka still looks strong even with the Breacherfish points hike and Kauyon appears to have gotten buffed. I'm annoyed about the T'au codex when both CSM and Orks got multiple fun, viable detachments just dripping with love and flavor, but we'll see how things go.
I think you missed the true Ork boost @10:00. 54% over all but Bully Boys have a 59% win rate according to another podcast and Green Tide was running at 67%!
Very scared for blood angels now lol. If they’re doing anywhere above 50% and our codex gets announced it might end up being a complete shitshow followed by an immediate faction nerf
This game is so slated towards marines.
80pts for 5 intercessions vs 80 for 10 fire warriors. That better BS, melee, armour save and leadership for the same points. And don’t get me started on 75pts for very squishy, very meh Kroot.
It would probably be prudent to throw up detachment win rates for those armies who have received their codexes already, rather than the win-rate of them averaged together. Custodes look weak because of Shield Host and Auric Champions having poor win-rates, but Talons of the Emperor is actually doing well with a 54% win-rate. This is also true for Tyranids with Assimilation Swarm and Unending Swarm having 60% and 55% respectively, but being brought way down by Synaptic Nexus and Crusher Stampede being at 38% and 33%. On the reverse, Necrons seem to be finally a bit more balanced with a 54%, until you realize that Canoptek Court has a 64% and the others being in the 50s are bringing the average down.
The play numbers will be far too small to do that, like literally one very good player using a detachment could completely skew that detachment's win rate, doesn't mean it is good.
@@tajj7 I'm just going to assume you haven't looked at the stats at all, or you'd understand why you're wrong in this case. And including bad detachments in the overall win-rate of each faction is skewing the results regardless, making problematic to strong detachments within a faction able to hide that. Talons of the Emperor represents 29% of all Custodes games currently recorded; likewise Assimilation and Unending Swarm represent 28% of all Tyranid games. Canoptek Court is 25% of all Necron games as well. These are not insignificant percentages of the player population for each faction thus far. There are currently only a handful of tiny player base high win-rate detachments recorded, and they're skewing the stats of their faction, like the Kroot detachment and Rad-Zone Corps both having an 80% making both Tau and Ad Mech appear better than they should.
@@MrHoneuma I am not wrong because it is like two-three weeks of data, the samples for some armies are already small enough as it is, breaking them down by detachment is completely useless at this stage, you would need several months of data to do that sort of analysis. I also know this because Talons sucks and is not going to be some sort of saviour for Custodes. FFS there were only 10 Custodes players full stop from GTs for the weekends games. One very good player with talons going 4-1, would mean the other 4 guys would win 43% of their games.
Also literally the only Custodes list getting into top places at the weekend was using Auric Champions, not talons, which more shows your comment is nonsense. There is not enough data for those sort of conclusions.
Who would have thought that not solving any of the problems nids have, would not solve any of the problems nids have...😂
Custodes are under 30% wr in competitive
Space Marines being bottom tier the whole edition is interesting. GW approaching the game like "Fuck our poster boys"
Same with Nids. They apparently failed to do much play testing before production.
Marines need more viable melee options. The reason black Templars are so much better is sword brethren. If vanilla marines had a punchy melee option like that they'd be fine (no, bladeguard are not that...)
@@cruelmole And you know how they can do that? Give Veteran Vanguard their BLOODY MELEE weapon options back. 5 Man squad with 4 Thunder Hammers with Devastating Wounds? Or Lighting Claws with Twin Link.
@@ondururagittandeska2004 that would be a start. A more threatening BGV or assault terminators profile would help too
@@cruelmole Aggressors not costing 5 more points than terminators or 10 more points than mega nobz would be nice too.
Uhh, this looks a lot more unbalanced than 9th.
"in 10th we've simplified the game so that every army can win. We just never said they could win often."
How the hell are Necrons not higher?!?!?
Because it's only a couple of weeks since the new update, so results aren't going to be terribly exact, rather more just indicators of tiers.
Still, they are in the top tier bracket so I'm unsure as to what your quarrel is with the percentages... It's really a guide only at the moment. 😊
Because they got nerfed
A cryptech dropping 3in with 20 warriors jumping out 1in away is ridiculous
Shout out all my dark eldar players! I know you feel unloved but as an army based around OOP models hang in there and take solace in the fact we are pretty strong.
Genuinely feel like 10th Ed is just a Fucking Miss for me. I dislike so many of the changes, the death of modular points, lack of options, Detachments that don't fill me with joy, over-focus on Competitive and Fuck the 'casuals', etc etc :
Space marines strong 40 😆I'm sure Gdubs will tell us all is well, despite being sub par two consecutive balance slates.
I know there are worse factions, just annoys me how inept gdubs is
They'll never address the problem of acting like complaints,and divergents are playing the same game. Despite SW mogging the crap out of WS who have literally one character choice on a bike, and similarly DA,and BT mogging IH with their playstyle.
Votann and Ad-Mech are just a mental drain to play (EDIT: I worded this badly. I didn't mean tough to manage as an army in a game. I meant being a player and putting up with GW's constant changes that don't help your army feel like the fluff). Maybe if you are super good you can win with them, but not only is it an uphill battle, you're probably not having fun because your army doesn't feel very much like you want it to. The votann points cut to Warriors doesn't matter, because no one uses them(edit: no one uses them as tough space dwarves. They're basically just mech scouts. That should be a seperate unit dataslate, and the Warriors should be the anvil). In 10 man squads and without an invuln, you'll just get quickly swept off the table and lose their special gear figures. Back in 9th, having 20 bodies and the chance for the fixed save meant that you could field them as solid blocks to hold objectives and still actually do damage. Now their battleline unit is just a throw away scout unit that works best if you Sagi-taxi it up at the start of the game. At least Ad-Mech have the glimmer of hope that they're getting "Changes" "Soon" (won't count on that until I see it), but Votann need additional models with different battefield roles, we need to see if they get good Formation rules, and they absolutely need to go back to BS3+ instead of basic Guard stats.
You play kin Warrior to fill Up the Sagittarius, 6 of them are still viable. And the point cuts to them was everything you need to play more Sagittarius
At least you still have the codex to look forward to. Those who got worthless codexes are ****ed until the next edition (AdMech and DA in particular)
Bro what are you on about, most our matchups are very favourable as Votann. They're easy to pilot
I'm just getting into Votann, but your description of them as "mentally draining" seems way off the mark compared to everyone else I've seen talk about them. The biggest issue I've seen is just a small roster, but they manage to still have some diversity in play style despite it.
I think it's mostly that the meta has shifted, and Votann players hasn't adjusted away yet.
@@DrakonPhD I guess I should have said "mentally draining if you play competitive but also like fluff". If meta competition is all you want, then I suppose you could constantly jump on whatever gets point decreases. But if you want to play them like Space Dwarves, Squats, or even just the lore from 9th edition, you have to do a bunch of mental gymnastics justifications as to why you only play volkswagon taxis and hearthguard this month, but next month you'll be using a gunline of Thunderers because they got the points cut. It just feels like GW has never figured out how they want them to play since they launched, and they keep throwing band aids on the army instead of actually locking it down.
No top 5% for any flavour of Elf, quite odd, but I'm happy if we escape more nerfs. Competitive players are funny people, aren't they. No longer played, but I don't see any benefit of that in anything being dumped on ebay. Meh.
Well done Orks, btw, richly deserved.
I play guard, and I stopped playing 40k since the last balance slate...
This company runners me mad... Can't stand this self pleased talk of super balance anymore...
I mainly play against eldar, and every game is so frustrating seeing them rerolling every single dice for each roll all day long... Ah hold on they don't need to roll dice anymore.... 😂
Who ever is in charge at GW should have fired this incompetent balance fools with no school degrade a long time ago... ffs
So I'm hearing it's safe to play my Aeldari again in casual without being called a tryhard?
I don't believe the win rates for grey knights there not a good army and we've had a few testers do research and couldn't come anywhere near the gk current win rate true win rate if all gk players played would be about 40-42 percent not 59. This is about a 20 percent win rate boost clear tampering by gw.
Nice
Funny enough the larger the event the lower the over all win rates of the bad armies. Also their % of 4:1 or 5:0 gravitates to 0%
Admech is NOT 49%. The fact people still believe GW metawatch is laughable
The past six months I’ve gone 6-4 with world eaters, and so far 2-0 with blood angels
Green is best !!!
If Elder players would actually look into their index, they would realize that at least 50% of the index is still bonkers good. But they jumped ship once the super obvious op stuff was nerfed. Lol.
Eldar players are so used to being broken that the moment they aren't obscene it's considered an issue.
Sure am stoked to have gotten into dark angels and space marines at the start of 10th... le sigh
I got told by a friend in 8th ed to get into Deathwatch. They have never been that good, maybe for a bit at the start of 10th when everything was screwy, but hey.
Another round of the guard being bad, but just good enough to receive no help and be hit by nerfs intended for others.
I fully understand balancing custodes can be a bit of a headache. Trying to hit that middle ground of very strong individual units being too over powered by detachments that it's unfair to fight them in alot of siuations(Or forces you to do one good strat that some armies can't even do) or not supporting them enough and their great individual stats but small numbers means nothing andthey get wiped easily despite any natural power.
But come on guys. You need to think a little better than just four detachments and making the good one terrible. Yes the detachment rule got a little too strong cause it protected them from the weakness they got. But could have just weakened it to 6+'s or thought of something else. Instead you just swapped a strat and detachment rule and called it a day.
Why didn't you guys just make plastic kits for some of the forgeworld(Specifically the dreads and the tank) and make a more mechanized detachment?
i dont think black templars should count unless they are using the templars vows detachment. otherwise I think it should be counted as space marine wins
not if the use BT units.
No it shouldn't, because they have units that regular space marines don't. This is a bad take.
Terrible, terrible idea. All that does is skew the numbers in favor of SM so that GW goes "oh I guess they're fine, don't have to touch them."
Admech at 49%, yikes. Probably means GW will once again think points cuts is the way once again. At leaat there's more than one way to play them (sarcasm)
Ohoho marines (compliant) might aswell not exist they're a platform to stroke the egos of the divergents, and I don't see this changing till 11th ed.
DA's ego could do with a bit of stroking right now..
Armies with significant allies should not count in the win totals.
Please note that with the Custodes win rate, the higher skilled the opponent the worse the win rate is 😞
In the versing against the top 15% of players, there win rate drops down to 29% though the lower data pool makes it unclear weather its just meta chasers moving on or if it is that bad.
I lean towards it is, in my friends playgroup where all very competive and 4 out of the 5 games I've played basically had the writing on the wall for me around turn 3. It's literally one bad dice saving throw feels like an ungodly punch to the guy.
Its really frustrating that Custodes got a first draft due to Orks, CSM getting dubble the detachments and probably the team also having to giving input onto the new Priara Nexus game rules.
If a codex is half baked, delay it or hire more people GW.... You literally make 220m in profit after all expenses what's 4 more hires????
Yeh I expect Custodes to probably drop a little more, the CSM codex looks good as well, the Ork codex will get better I think, causing Custodes more issues and I think people will realise there is basically nothing in the codex for Custodes, all the detachments are bad to mediocre, they are relying on pure datasheets basically.
@@tajj7 I have one last experiment left to do. It's using the quirk of how badly the Auric Champions detachment is wrote as in the core rules. When you deploy a unit with an attached character it doesn't give it the trait of being "attached" thus using Shoulder the Mantle you can have two units attached to one character. We will have to see how it goes
@@tajj7 Overall, CSM codex is good. There are some AWESOME detachments, and there are some that are just kinda...there. Not awful, just not great. The not great detachments typically have certain conditions that need to be filled in order for their stratagems to actually be used, which really blunts the effectiveness of the detachments.
@@anonamarth4291 That is the issue though, CSM codex probably has 2-3 great detachments, Orks also, and then they have 2-3 decent ones as well that are flavourful. Custodes have 3 bad detachments and one completely useless one that no one will ever use and is not even meme worthy really because sisters datasheets are pretty boring. Then the other 3 are not even flavourful or fluffy with the lore really. I used shield host the other day, it's just meh and the 'waagh' really brings nothing to table, against most things it is just overkill the extra AP does nothing against certain armies that have a lot of invuls and spamming more attacks is over kill for units that are already very killy in melee.
@@tajj7 Yeah, AP bonuses, in my experience, don't tend to do a whole lot, given the sheer number of units with invulns.
Go fricken figure, Dark Angels got some the best model updates and new models and we get shafted by the Datasheets and detachment rules. Goes to show just points changes dont solve the issue.
Dont get comfortable Grey Knight players...this new "5 VP to opponent for every non battleline/transport duplicate unit you choose" rule will destroy the Dreadknight spam and put us back at 38% where GW always wants us lol
Gw doesn't want space marines to be good...
I don’t understand why GW continues to nerf guard. We had 1 strong build and it’s not like it was sweeping every tournament in the world but they decided it was too much and nerfed every unit in the list basically. It’s crazy how careful they were with balancing the necrons as to not over nerf them but when it comes to guard they just slam them with whatever they think of first. Sure they buffed our Russes which is cool but that doesn’t fix that much as the main thing holding guard back is a shitty detachment and units.