Dior and Its Cultural Appropriation of Chinese Ma Mian Skirt [CC]
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- Опубліковано 21 лип 2024
- Video from 七十二烟尘 from bilibili showing the structure of the Dior skirt, it's in Chinese but visually pretty straightforward to understand：
www.bilibili.com/video/BV1434...
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They also did a vest and a single piece fabric pleated skirt that is based on Ming underwear and Song Bai Die Skirt (that yellow one) but I don't have suitable items to show and that much time to go through them all.
Oh! That sounds very interesting too! Perhaps later, if you do get some suitable items :D (and time)
Hi AvenueX thank you for your interesting comments on Chinese dramas. I'm a Jamaican living in Jamaica I like to watch your program☺ can you please send me one of those skirts
Lol Chinese brands have barrow without giving credit from so many other culture and worldwide brand but now they get mad when someone "allegedly" stole a design from Chinese culture. (I said allegedly because they could have happen to replicated a similar skirt without knowing because let's be real the design , the structure of that's skirt is not very unique or hard to create, the structure of this skirt is quite basic, I can totally see people come up with a similar same design by without knowing the Chinese version)
It seems like it is inspired by their tailleur bar, what you have to say about that?
"I went on Dior's french official website to see exactly how they described their skirt. Because I'm sorry but I don't trust chinese translation of whatever is writing in french. I actually don't trust translation, so much can be lost in translation. So when they said "Dior's own iconic silhouette" they mean thier famous Tailleur Bar. Here is my translation of how they describe it in their french website : "The midi-skirt from Dior's own iconic silhouette is now renewed in this elegant and modern version". So basically they did not claim this designs as their own. They did steal this chinese design but they did not claim it as their own. But I agree they should have added : inspired by ". That was my opinion as an asian/french woman but you can just ignore me haha"
Are you going to respond to this comment?
It is possible that they did take inspiration for an ancient clothing but not from China, the design of this skirt is not hard to create or especially unique, you can find very similar skirt in a lot of cultures from a lot of different cultures around the world
a much bigger problem is if dior claims that this is their "iconic silhouette" and copyright it, then traditional chinese clothiers would have a hard time producing and selling a skirt that was traditionally chinese for thousands of years. imagine how fucked is that, if you can't even sell or produce a traditional cultural piece of clothing without infringing on some stupid trademark that a white company created 2 years ago.
Fashion is one of the few things that you explicitly can't copyright in international and most national laws. The brands can only copyright their name and logo. As long as you do not put the logo on your rip off you are free to rip off the big fashion houses. In some sense this is how fashion is meant to work. That has of course not stopped these corporations from using lawyers to try to go after people in roundabout ways to stop the copying of their legitimate items. When they do blatant copying themselves of items from smaller designers or traditional clothing like in this instant they expose that they don't really think copying and stealing designs are wrong, like they like to publicly claim, but that it is simply about them wanting to be the only ones making money of fashion.
You can't copyright fashion pattern
@@kattkatt744 unfortunately not the case...look up the example of what Ugg boots. Since trademarking is based on each country's market, the big brand use it to sneakily rip off small producers from other countries
@@aleenaprasannan2146 The Ugg case is not about the design of the shoes, it is about tradmarking of the name 'ugg' and logo copyright. The maker of the original shoes are still able to sell the shoes in the shape he has alwayes done, he is just not allowed to use the name ugg because the US Ugg company was able to successfully argue in court that they have the rights to the name. Now the case is unfair and it should have never gone through court because ugg is a gereic term in its native Australia, but unfortuantly what is law and what is moral is not always convergant. Regardless, my points still stand. You can not copyright the design, you can only copyright the logo (and trademark the name).
Same thing happened with embroidered Romanian blouses that Dior just generically named a "peasant blouse".
In the Bili Bili video, it seems this entire look is plagiarized from the Chinese Hanfu store, from the skirt to the mini vest, it's an exact replica minus minute details (look at the side by side model posters). Yet Diors has the galls to call it original.
Dior is huge! That is a small Hanfu store and greedy Dior even made a patent for it. How shameless.
The infuriating thing is similar cases have already happened and the copier had the galls to call the original much smaller business the copycat.
I love your skirt. Just thought I'd say that. Unfortunately, big designers have been copying traditional styles from many countries for a long, long time. In past decades we just accepted it, but now there is a move to give credit where it is really due. As you say, if they had simply said it was inspired by a Chinese traditional item of clothing it would at least have been honest.
Yes, true, they do it to everyone globally
Sadly, they don't even credit anyone or anything, not even a single word mentioned and honored 'Chinese culture'. That's why the Chinese community greatly upset about it.
To make matters worse, Dior said it was Korean.
@@lil8196 oh, oh 😧
@li l I think it’s a fake information.
Just the other day I was watching a Chinese costume drama clip and wondered how the females could ride astride horses so easily in their long skirts. Now I know thanks to your informative video.
文化可以交流和借鑑。網友在意的是他標註爲“dior原創”。
就像我們做各種各樣的西裝，但是我們不會說西裝是自己原創，也不會把西裝改名字爲中裝。這就是這裡面的區別。你可以用這些東西，但是你不能用了這些東西之後說這些是你自己的。
👍
exactly
exactly！！
Can't agree more!
赞
Western fashion designers are always appropriating. As an ethnic Hmong (Miao), I have lost count how many times westerners have appropriate my heritage textiles and jewelry. 🙄😒 in a recent incident, a designer/stylist took our jewelry and dressed a rapper/singer-added a few gems and claimed it as her original design. What was infuriating, she wore it basically as underwear. But our jewelry was developed and created to remind us about our history of oppression and slavery from ancient wars.
Miao culture is so beautiful! People can totally wear clothes from other culture, but be educated. Only people from the culture should be allowed to change the style, because only they know if it’s okay.
Edit : and if people want to take inspiration from it fine. Do research, don’t make it into a fetish and give credit to the culture.
westerners always look down on asian but they're ALWAYS secretly stealing from us, craving what we have
@@xyz7572 wdym? We never do that. Ppl are actually trying to spread awareness of all culture in China. For example, DianDiLaHai has a series where he goes to different minorities area to take pictures and everything. Don't group us with the likes of Americans 🙄
@@xyz7572 if that's bogus than those protest pictures of the Uyghur are even more bogus. Cuz why would they know English?? And why would they use English to protest against the Chinese government?? And that's bullshit, most ppl know their regional dialect/language so what u said is invalid. There's a reason why dramas in China use voice dubbing bc everyone speaks a different dialect
@@xyz7572 and frankly only ABC wouldn't know their regional dialect/language bc they think being Americanized is cooler
Yikes! Did a quick search and realized that this isn't Dior's first issue with cultural appropriation and controversy in China. I find it crazy that such a big brand like Dior has companies and employees worldwide, yet no one called out this flaw before it hit the runaway or market. It makes me curious if the designer(s) of this skirt thought they had found a new style to claim as their own to brand it as a ‘hallmark Dior silhouette.' I wouldn't be surprised if that would be the case as usually, no one person has an idea that someone else hasn't thought of. But this still loops back to not going through the hands and eyes of others before they decide to market it as it is. Since the damage has been done, what matters is Dior not staying silent - learn to give the respect and credit where it's due.
I am not sure it's lack of oversights, but more of an arrogant and superiority corporate attitude that results in these scandals. They preach respect for various world cultures in the age of globalization, now it's high time they practice such appreciation.
Too bad there's nobody around from the Ming Dynasty to sue the pants (skirts) off Dior.
Might be PR stunt to get easy China-wide publicity and strengthen brand recognition - China is a big market - and it always good to be talked about in business...
China's not even the only culture they've done this from. Maria Grazia, the current creative director culturally appropriated (downright stole, lets be honest) motifs, silhouettes and design techniques from Morocco, Mexico, western African countries, Australian aborigines, Native Americans etc....they are all simply horrid and shameless!
@@moodygirl609 But, Chinese can boycott Dior like they did with H&M and others.
Back in the ‘80s, Folkwear Patterns did a version of a Ma Mian Skirt (#115, now out of print and difficult to find). It include a light history of the skirt, noting how far back images of the sirt goes and never indicating it was found anywhere except in China. It’s also a westernized pattern, something I didn’t realize when I first made one. I loved it, because you say, it’s comfortable and easy to move in. But the difference between Folkwear and Dior was that Folkwear never claimed it was their design, merely their interpretation. The phrase “Iconic Dior silhouette” is the issue, because it’s claiming ownership of the idea. Something Dior likes to do with fair frequency, no matter the source.
(And I now want to go dig out that pattern and make another Ma Mian, though perhaps with more traditional methods than the pattern uses.)
Thank you for citing this pattern. I was just about to ask AvenueX if there were any good English language sewing instructions for the skirt. If you know of any others please do share.
And now I want to make one for myself too...
@@curiouslywoven9737 That's the only one I know of. They do have extensive notes, but they are also a quarter of a century old. Searching the HanFu sites might give more information. The Folkwear pattern is decidedly not accurate because you cut and sew the pleats separately, whereas in genuine Ma Mian skirts, each panel is a single piece of fabric. Folkwear tapered the pleats to reduce bulk at the waist, but, as I said, it's an adaptation for modern western use. The embroidery patterns they include are quite beautiful, though, and if I had a machine that did embroidery, I'd probably use those as embellishment.
@@naniedesbois3891 The Westernized version I made was so comfortable and got so many compliments -- and that was with a plain solid-color fabric because it was office wear. I think the big issue is figuring out how much fabric you need for each panel if you're going to make it in one piece. The Folkwear version had sewn pleats which reduced bulk at the waist so it skimmed the hips more closely. But they also made no bones about this being an adaption for modern western wear. But if I had to crawl under my desk for something while I wore it, it was sooo much easier than wearing almost any other skirt because of those front panels. (I'd also line another one if I made it. The one I made was not.)
I have the pattern and am going to try to make another. I had a Ma Mian skirt that was a gift from China, and I wore it until it came apart.
As a horse rider, the explanation of the skirt made me stop my work and sneakily watch that section 🙈🙈 side saddle was a ridiculous idea anyway and can damage the horses backs, if riding wrong or fitting the saddle wrong 😣😣 Shame on Dior. Surely they could simply just stand up and apologise like grown ups 🙄
From Brazil... there's nothing like this here. It's actually very beautiful and smart about the horse/virtue thing. I can super understand the frustration about the topic. When I saw a photo of a sweet in a european supermarket that was just like the brazilian brigadeiro (even the recipe was the same) and with no mention of it, I got really mad. Like COME ON, Brazilians has been doing this sweet for AGES, it is mandatory in every birthday party, it is part of our cultural food, the preferred dessert of most population and you just copy it without a single mention to the original history or the country that created it??????
Thank you for understanding
I have to say I googled Brigadeiro and it looks absolutely delicious 🤤
What the hell??? We eat several foreign recipes in Brazil and nobody overseas is complaining about this. What the hell is wrong with these people? You don't get attention enough from the world or you just feel too complexed Brazilian cultural influence over the world is too minimal
@@kddiodox you have no idea what you're talking about. The amount of shit you said it's just absurd. Every foreign food here it's called after its original culture and even if it don't, it is properly mentioned on the package. I don't even know why I'm answering you, I have more important things to do than answer an ignorant troll 🤦🏼♀️
As a brazilian i need to say: You're dumb.
Deixa de ser besta que você deve comer de outras culturas e até mesmo vestir de outras culturas também.
We call those types of pleats inverted box pleats! It shows up in western skirts too, but usually just one or two folds in the pleat and there are more pleats along the skirt width. The large number of pleats in the ma mian skirt is pretty unique!
get out
Similar my school uniform skirt but in one piece and not so many pleats at the side. Where can I get such a wonderful piece of art ?
What about kilts?
@@MarkGoding The horse face skirt is available in one-piece and two-piece styles, it is split front and back, not sewn together
@@MarkGoding Far as I've seen, kilts don't have the two large overlapping back panels, they're one piece and pleated throughout the back.
I'm not Chinese but I enjoy Chinese dramas and I love your videos. I agree that Dior was wrong to pretend this skirt is of their own design. I myself have a hanfu dress because I think these type of dresses are just so beautiful, and I also have dresses from other countries (Japan, Morocco and Ukraine) just because I like their design.
谢谢你的理解❤
Thank you very much @AvenueX for sharing this. Unfortunately this is a very common phenomenon in the western world and "luxury" brands. Be it Asia, Africa or any other continent/country with rich culture. As an example, Gucci had renamed our Kurta - a very convenient upper body cloth for men and women as kaftan with horrible design (none actually) at unbelievably high prices and they are still selling them despite the backlash. Bindi, Lungi, Maang Teeka, etc have all been victims of cultural appropriation and misrepresentation leading to more stereotypes. As an Indian living abroad, I see this almost everyday and it saddens me that people do not take the time to understand culture and just adapt a singular aspect, claiming to know all that. Be it Mehndi (henna "tattoo" as they call it, which it totally is not) or Yog (Yes, it is Yog not Yoga! Yoga is more about spirituality and mindfulness than showing off flexibility of your body as a couple *eye-roll*). It is so insincere when they use Namaste without even knowing what it means (no it doesn't mean a casual hi). It irks me so much when someone says that all Indians worship cows, cuz first off not Indians are Hindu, second Hindus don't either, we just consider all life forms (human, animal, plan, microbes etc) and those making their exitance possible (sun, soil, water, moon, air, sky etc) sacred, respectful and precious. And no, not all Hindus are idol worshipers. There are so so many branches including atheism in Hinduism that one can't even imaging the number of philosophises running parallelly and all accepted. Our cultures are so rich and have existed for millenniums and more that a copy of our culture and claiming it as an original hurts my identity and pride. Sorry for my little rant here but your video just made me want to add my 2 pieces as well, lol.
Btw, as a side-comment, I love your channel and your videos, been following for a long time but I think this is my first comment. As a drama lover, I am thankful for your insights on Chinese culture. Helps me appreciate rather than appropriate the culture. XD Also that skirt seems very comfortable and thanks for explaining the horse riding, the original design is so innovative.
Thanks for sharing the knowledge i definitely didn't know about how those big brands stealing from other cultures too
@@xyz7572 Dear, west gets called out for it because the cultural appropriation of west is not something most countries wanted but were forced to adopt by colonization and were extorted for not following through. Live through centuries of it and then west can say the same. Did you know that in many Asian and African cultures, women's bosoms were not seen as a sexual organ but as a nurturing. We did not wear "blouse" under our saree unless we (women of pre-colonization India) wanted to support their breasts. All changed when England came and cut off women's breasts for not wearing blouse or for not converting to Christianity. That's the history! We till now do not have a Hindi word for blouse cuz it never existed!
West likes to drape all the ugly past in a cute pretty bow and calls it "we know culture", but generally it is adopting one tiny portion without even knowing it's significance and history which plays a big role in meaning of things. I am not trying to attack an individual but the petty ideology. All are welcome to adapt a portion of other's culture but give respect and acknowledge the culture where it is due.
I love it when someone takes a portion of my religion or culture and represents it respectfully and carefully. You can celebrate our festivals, eat our food, wear our clothes, use our slang etc all is fine as long as u give credit to our ancestors for their fine brain and how they helped us evolve over the years.
I can't agree more. Some westerners are too overweening to culture form other countries. They don't respect these cultures, they don't truly understand these cultures, they just interpret them according to their own narrow understanding, and then they tell the whole world that "their version" is "the right version". Sometimes you even can not tell the difference between their behaviors and bullying.
Even before these brands remember how many stuff british stole. They even looted the word loot.😑
@@colours8846 for some reason that has made laugh😂😂😂
Fashion can take inspiration everywhere and from everybody. It doesn’t make it iconically that particular person’s/company’s original work if it doesn’t come from their own designer’s imagination. Would it kill them to admit they got the inspiration from ancient China since French along w/ other western fashion is so uptight?
It would kill them if people realise they just took the whole thing, and probably just change the color of the fabric and claimed "the structure" is their original design.
It would kill the French to admit that they robbed artifacts from the Palace in Beijing 100 years ago.
Definitely not the first time designer brands have done cultural appropriation and certainly not the last! It’s especially frustrating when they say it’s an original design when it clearly was ‘inspired’ by someone else’s cultural garments ☹️
Dior plagiarized Romania in 2017.
Inspired? It’s more like the exact same one with a different fabric and modern fastener.
@@heythaveActually, if Dior said it inspired by China (even exactly the same), the Chinese will not say anything and will be happy about it.
I think we should help each other to stop Dior keep stealing other cultures.(My English is not good enough. I’m sorry for it.)
Cultural appropriation yet the Chinese steals, copy, fake and claim they invernt it....lmao
Wow, from what i can understand visually from the other reviewer's video, this isn't the first time Dior has done this kind of thing. It's one thing to pay an homage or even to acknowledge that the design or pattern comes from another culture, but Dior is behaving as if their skirt is original to them. That's downright lying and plagiarism
Dior plagiarized culture of Romania, Mexico and India. Now, China turn. Then, which country turn next time? Stop culture appropriation
Impossible is a globally emerging world. Should non-western stop wearing/making suites or Loafers? Both are European.
They register their trademarks.Is it not legal that we use millennia-old clothing styles?
Copy cat china
@@Khftg 小偷高丽棒
China plagiarized culture of Korea .😀🖕
i'm a big nerd for historical clothing and im so impressed by that skirt, it's such a genius solution for horseriding. much more convenient than riding side saddle or wearing victorian bike skirts. i honestly would love to learn more about chinese historic dress, but the language barrier is a bit of a pain haha. if anyone here has some good book/website/... recommendations for learning i'd love to hear about it!
This must definitely be called out or else sometime down the line Dior will say it’s their copyright and sue anyone who makes a skirt like this. There was this incident with the pipa in the Nara museum which LV said Japan copied, turned out that was a gift from Tang emperor!
You are right, it’s actually a pattern from Tang Dynasty which was copied by LV. But LV claimed that Chinese copied them. 😂
What a beautiful piece of clothing! Dior is so horrible for blatantly appropriating this. The pleats reminded me of how I pleat Saris (Indian clothing) but this skirt is incredibly unique to my knowledge. Seeing the other video and the Dior design it’s very evident that it’s practically the same thing. The frustration and rage you feel about this is completely valid!
Exactly . It's so similar to the Saari pleats ... but where we create the pleats of saari by our own hands the skirt has a ready-made pleat..... it's so cool 😍... these skirts are so damn comfy and they can be used for horse riding 😍😍😍😍😍
感谢你们的理解！
Thanks！I think people in the world should help together to stop Dior steal other cultures .
Thank you
The pleats are also very similar to Hmong skirts. So Dior's new design copied more than just one culture.
A few years back, they made a print of our embroidered skirt pattern/textile design and sold it as an Aztec pattern print scarf. Not designer brand but none the less false advertising because Miao/Hmong culture is rather unknown in many parts of the world.
Yes. Many those brands uses Miao culture like the Miao silver and more. They take advantage of that few westerners know about Miao culture
shit Dior
Love this skirt, especially as a female and horse rider. Honestly, the pleats remind me of my kilt from Scotland but it was only one piece of fabric. Totally looks like Dior ripped off the idea! Love your videos, BTW!
As a Chinese, I’m really happy to see people like this and can understand what we are mad at. Thanks
and now we know where to buy prettier clothing😍😍 Ma Mian skirt is wayyyyyy moooooooore beautiful than that stolen piece
It's kinda funny to see China blaming someone else for plagiarism because usually it's other way around.
Dior is notorious for racism and cultural appropriation, from copying Romanian folk clothing to that awful Dior Sauvage ad. The trouble is they are let off the hook each time because let’s face it most of their client base share their views and will continue to support them. Frankly the fashion industry is completely rancid, I mean look at Gucci and Prada with their blackface campaigns they were allowed to just apologise and then get back to business as usual. If anything I think they earn more money when they cause controversy.
杜嘉班纳对中国人的抹黑也十分令人生气 他们丑化黄种人 并且两面三刀 可我们都应该知道 无关肤色 人人平等
@@user-gp4vb4kr5g I forgot about Dolce and Gabbana they are terrible too.
@@deeb4053 我们似乎拥有共同的观点。但显然有一些人不这么认为，这让我十分怀疑他们的思考方式。
This is why I will NEVER buy from luxury fashion brands
This is a prime example why diversity is important in hiring at major companies. Had they hired someone or at least a consultant, they could have saved themselves the ignorance, embarrassment and insensitivity.
I think the way they copied the unique Design 1 to 1 is very intentional and a chinese employee would not have changed much bc the big guys decided they want to plagiarize. It's not that a designer came up with it and they reviewed it and decided "oh it's similiar but what ever" I really think they dug for designs from different culture to copy.
prime
www.youtubecommm.com/watch?v=zTnWHd7O6SG
embarrassment and insensitivity.
@@user-gu8zt3db3r 但我记得这条裙子的署名设计师确实不是韩国的，我觉得还是不要把问题给复杂化了
@@user-gu8zt3db3r 而且Dior那条说受启发于韩国传统的推特其实说的是他们在韩国新开的店，不是这条裙子
As a designer, it is basic to understand the world's clothing history. If he doesn't know the world's clothing history at all, he is not a qualified designer. I have reason to doubt Dior's professionalism.
I'm so glad you made this video. The construction of the skirt is fascinating, and I can't wait to look for more examples of it around. I'm glad people are calling Dior out.
To my knowledge, I think the closest resemblance to this skirt would be a kilt. Which is of course, still very very different.
ua-cam.com/video/b4Tn9gu43lk/v-deo.html
This youtuber bought a Dior's skirt and compared the features between it and a MaMian skirt,the resemblance is striking...
I love it-it looks so comfortable and flattering. I’ve sewn a lot of western clothes and I have never seen that type of construction. Usually pleating goes on the front or back (not sides) and most wrap skirts have only one opening.
IKR? It is so versatile. Why don’t Chinese companies make this with a light cotton or rayon fabric for the masses. I would buy one.
@@heythave Haha thank you for saying that. There are a lot of Ma Mian Skirt made for daily life sold on Taobao. The price is 20 USD and above.
@@yirongwang2677 Hello, thank you for this information. I'm looking to buy one. Have you any other sites you can recommend for quality Hanfu outfits? Thank you.
@@lygiabing4936 "Ming Hua Tang" makes high quality Ming dynasty Hanfu. They do tailor according to your own measurements. But I personally never bought from them so I cannot give you more details. They have their own official website but I don't see they offer an English version. Maybe you need to contact their customer service for more information. Hope you can get some Hanfu you like!!
Unfortunately, the Chinese designer only sold her work on Taobao for a short period of time, then announced that the skirt was out of print, and went to pursue new ideas. She probably could not imagine that her unknown inspiration would appear on the show of Dior in three years. The only lucky thing is that, stimulated by Dior's behavior, the designer considered putting the skirt on the shelves again.
Hey, AvenueX! Thank you for making this video!! I am a big fan of your cdrama videos and love learning more about Chinese culture and history! If you ever come across another topic that you think could use some more awareness, please do make a video because without this one I wouldn't have learned about Dior and about 马面裙!! :)
Thank you for taking the time to do this video. 😊
Tbh the ma mian skirt you have in the video looks so much better than Dior. Never thought that these luxury brand would appropriate this, thanks for sharing to let us know about this. Big support from New Zealand❤️ 🇳🇿 🇨🇳
I am really in for you making this type of content!
Really enjoyed this video. Would love to watch more videos of you talking about Chinese period clothes like this one
Although minus the whole Dior problem, a simple inspired by would've fixed it all. But it unfortunately doesn't seem like it'll be the last time they'll do this
Yes there is HUGE difference between being inspired by cultural clothing and appropriation, and Dior blatantly appropriated the skirt. I'm new to this channel but as a C-drama fan from Australia I'm definitely going to keep watching as the clothing is divine.
Pray, what is the huge difference between inspiration and appropriation? They seem to mean the same, which is adaption. When a non-western culture adapts to the west, that's totally fine, but it's a sin when it's vice versa. This is just anti-west drivel.
@@daisycooper9595 Drivel. Nice word. Other choice words include ignorant, insensitive, and tone-deaf. You've missed the point the OP was making.
@@suzykeene9298 Rude, blunt, frank, arrogant, etc., etc. Resorting to insults when you don't have an argument. Didn't answer the question. What is the HUGE difference?
@@daisycooper9595Since when is being aware and questioning of how our Western-based societies work "anti-West"? That's an interesting bias you have. You even claim that "When a non-western culture adapts to the west, that's totally fine." That is factually untrue, the introduction of Western clothing and cultural adaption to the West, as you put it, also has a dark and bloody history so I recommend that you do some research that include the opinions of "non-Western people".
I started to write you an answer then erased it - why do my words matter when the OP has fully explained it already? If you can't grasp it then speak to MANY "Non-Western" people in a non-hostile nor judgmental manner.
@@suzykeene9298 More insults and still didn't answer the question. What is the HUGE difference between inspired cultural clothing and appropriation? Enlighten me.
I first have to say that your skirt was so gorgeous!
You asked if other cultures around the world had similar styles of skirt, and I rememberd some old skirts my Dedanya had from Hungary. They were also riding skirts, and they had the panels joined by a single band of fabric at the top like the Ma Mian Qun, however it had three panels and all of them were pleated. The pleating was also one directional straight down, and each edge was fringed with an embroidered border and lace even the sides of the panels. I cant say if it is a real Hungarian style or anything but my Dedanya said they were from the old country and that her and her friends would all wear them to go riding when she was young and still lived in Hungary.
Another Hungarian, lol. You might be thinking of the Kalotaszeg apron & skirt combo. It’s a long skirt generally one piece either fully pleated or pleated on the sides with the apron tied over it, covering the front of the skirt. I’ve seen wraparound skirts, occasionally as well, gorgeously patterned though.
How wonderful, thank you for sharing it with us, marvel at your culture, please remember to promote it more and protect it!
@@morgannia I remember the Kalotaszeg too, I still have some of them my Dedanya used to use. She would always make me wear them cooking, which is something I still do today. The riding skirts were different tho, I dont have them but that is how I remember them. I also agree that magyar skirts are very beautifully patterned and its nice to see another Hungarian!
Your skirt looks prettier than the Dior one
I saw this gaining traction in the hanfu community I follow on instagram, I was surprised to see you make a video on it! Very informative as usual. I didn't realize Dior had called it a traditional Dior silhouette which is so sus
Words beyond my expression.Thank you so much for standing with us and introduce Chinese culture worldwide.
If I understand you correctly, the complaint is that Dior is advertising the skirt as their own design and not reflecting its heritage. I don't generally like this nebulous term cultural appropriation, but I really liked your video and have a better understanding of why you are upset. It is denying the cultural heritage instead of using it. Normally a retailer would say quite directly: Chinese Ma Mian Skirt or something similar to that. I guess by not doing that they must think they can charge a higher price. Any other reason not to do that?
Western artists and designers are so used to taking inspirations from other cultures, the idea of attributing to the source probably doesn't even cross their mind. It's happening all the time, and they only got called out this time because it's such a blatant direct copy.
@@merdufer There is nothing wrong with taking inspiration from other cultures. It what humans have been doing for thousands of years. The quite reasonable objection here seems to be that the dress is being called a Dior original instead of what it actually is. But, what motivation does Dior have in doing that I was wondering? Just ignorance seems to be what you are saying. Could be. But, I usually look for some monetary reason.
@@mikekeenanphd You also have to think of it culturally. For people in other cultures, clothing is more than just garmets you put on but part of identity. Many tribes and ethnicities are identified by clothing and in many cases hairstyles. It's a funny thing because most people in the western world couldn't care less but the cultures the clothes are "inspired by" actually care a lot. So why not either stop taking inspiration from them or actually say it was inspired by them?
Yes totally agree. I don't like the term 'cultural appropriation' because it gives the idea that you can't take inspiration from or borrow elements from different cultures. But there has been intermingling of things between cultures for centuries so much so that new art and styles emerge as a result of these mixings. So I think the much better way of handling something like this is to give credit where credit is due and to say that you took inspiration from the Ma Mian skirt instead of claiming it as your own original design.
@@merdufer there is nothing wrong with taking inspirations as long as they give credit. I have seen some French designers making collections inspired by Chinese design, they mention it and it's like a celebration. It's all good. But taking it and calling it your iconic silhouette is a totally different matter. I don't like calling things appropriation just because someone else likes it, thinks its cool/beautiful and therefore wears it. I have a problem with stealing and claiming as your own.
Don't give me well China steals all the time, like what is that even supposed to mean? Yeah some people have been caught plagiarising and have been publically shamed and condemned and boycotted. That's why I would accept the same from Dior.
I didn’t know what the fuss about and now you have explained clearly and showed an example why it is an issue for Dior. They should just give credit where credit is due.
whoa that skirt has such a unique structure, very clever, especially convenient for women in ancient times
Omg a video on Monday!
I can't stop watching though I'm in Kenya and know very little about fashion but the way you tell stories is soo captivating. I think Chinese culture is beautiful
Thank you for showing the 馬面裙 and the practical design, especially the pleat detail.
It would be so useful to have a skirt like this for everyday wear.
At first, I read 'iconic silhouette' as a reference to the Bar suit by Christian Dior, which has a full pleated skirt. After watching the Bilibili video it does appear Dior has used the structure without referencing/ crediting the inspiration.
The number of times big European designers just 'make' new collections with African-inspired looks. Like, lmao, do you think we can't tell your exorbitantly priced collection is just stuff I've seen grandma, mum and all the aunties wear. Why would I pay for the label version which stole the design? This nonsense never ends. The caucasity!
Please don't impune all 'white' (caucasity) peoples' ways. This is a clear-cut case of avarice and moral bankruptcy. It occurs across all colours and societies.
Just to be on the opposite side: china have stolen Vietnamese Ao Dai into their fashion brand as well, same with what Dior did. The main difference I think is the Chinese will swept it under the rug, and our population is too small to make any real noise, and most ppl would go: lol, chinese and their copycat and plagiarism 🤷♀️ whereas Dior will be held at a much higher standard. While two wrong don’t make a right, we also need to make sure the Chinese are held accountable for their wrong doings which they aren’t atm
@@appleish5043 excuse me. Qipao of China is earlier than Aodai . How can China copy it?
@@tiffanyzheng4341 qibao is not long arm (all the way down, not 3/4) nor does it come all way down to the ankle nor does it wear with a pants, nor does it split all the way up the hip! Also to have it basically looking like Ao Dai at this day and age is basically written off the Vietnamese. Like if you have something like that in Chinese history before Ao Dai was our traditional costume, then fine. But you don’t. We share similarities, that’s why the qibao and ao Dai are similar, however, like I said to have a fashion house come out recently, and claimed that is Chinese is basically a slap in the Vietnamese.
But I never quite understood - if an African tailor makes an European style cut suit - as those generally know and used cuts have heir own heritage and cultural prehistry also - how is this not cultural appropation then?
40 years ago Princess Diana wore a red Mamian Skirt publicly. You can easily find photos online. How dare Dior claim they're the original creator?
Thanks for the link to bilibili. She did a great job showing the similarities.
I understand cultural appropriation. But, most traditional costumes are appropriated from other cultures too . When someone think, "oh...its my culture and only I can use it"...that a bad mindset and lets be honest...kinda racist. Imagine you are wearing jeans, and a white guy says that you can't wear it because its his culture not yours - it would be racist...isnt it?
Watch the video again. The complaint isn't that someone outside of the culture used it, the complaint is that Dior is pretending they invented it. If Dior had just made their version of this and attributed the design to the Chinese traditional design instead of claiming it was their original design, then people wouldn't have complained. Go watch the video again, you weren't paying enough attention the first time.
Other nations didn't claims Jeans belong their original design.
Something similar happened to the appropriating of the Scottish Highland Kilt. They call pleated skirts fashioned as kilts, kilts and make them out of all kind materials. However, there’s a huge difference between an authentic kilt made by one of the few Scottish houses left who know the original traditional secrets of the kilt. The pleats are done in such a way, individually designed for each skirt, so you can run up and down the hills to Scotland, ride a horse, and engage in battle so as not to show your nether region. Also although the outside of the kilt appears to have straight pleats, their secrets allow them to fit any body perfectly. Unlike the very wise Chinese, there is no slip or under garments of any kind historically speaking.
Thanks for making this video! Good job explaining and demonstrating the beauty and practicality of this traditional design!
Ming dynasty's Ma Mian Qun/Horse Face Skirt evolved from Song dynasty's Liang Pian Qun/Xuan Qun 两片裙/旋裙 Two-Piece Skirt/Swirl Skirt and Bai Die Qun 百迭裙 Hundred Pleats Skirt
That's so interesting! Thank you for showing the structure of that wonderful skirt! It looks really comfortable
AvenueX, thanks for the link to the lady who bought the Dior skirt. You could feel her rage. It’s like an exact copy of the Chinese Han skirt but with a modern fastener. That is so funny. Such a big plagiarism on Dior’s part without the acknowledgment. Of the Chinese that I learned from watching Chinese dramas, I can make out what the last words the lady was saying, which is koan! Get lost! 😂
I am determined to once own a mamianqun and my wild dream is to make it myself, but I personally have not yet seen such a detailed look into one like you do in this video! It is very different to see the structure highlighted while worn instead of a pattern.Thank you for not only properly adressing this issue for the international audience, but also giving us a proper glimpse into the structure of the gardment.
Awesome vid! Seeing the pleating of the skirt and how practical/useful it is was really interesting! I recall a while back Dior also came under fire for ripping designs from Romanian traditional Bihor coats and selling them without any credit also caused some controversy..
Why steal the ancient aesthetic art of so many peoples without mentioning their country
Why steal the ancient aesthetic art of so many peoples without mentioning their country
Wow! Bravo on the explaination and the originality of this MaMian skirt..very skillfully made. Love it.
It is good to know history. Looking forward to more interesting articles and videos about China's culture and fashion..I want to say thank you for keeping the cultures and tradition history alive. It alot to learn from an enthusiast and professional like you. Thank you again for this video. Thumbs up! Dior should respect it's originality. China owned!
I really love this skirt. I've pretty much abandoned skirts as regular wear, but I would actually enjoy wearing one of those ...
Thank you so much for showing, displaying the skirt structure, and wearing it! You did an excellent job, and now I understand why this skirt is so full and has great design.. I think Dior should acknowledge it, even if it's late that this is an "inspired by" cultural appropriation.
I'm sure sensible chinese people won't be offended by dior chinese skirts, since they're evidently fine with chinese firms making direct copies of products that keep western companies (and therefore the communities that they support ) alive... Not to mention copies of landmarks like eiffel tower, misappropriation of our artworks, literature... Cultural and industrial appropriation offense goes both ways.
Ikr. Shein for example is itself a chinese company and they are known to literally copy black own businesses and other foreign fashion and chinese slept on that but then when someone take an inspiration on their clothing, somehow it's now a big problem for them.
@@IdentityCrisis_01 Afaik, Chinese don't buy from Shein. It's a shop purely marketed at us international consumers, that's why we know about Shein's scandals but Chinese people don't.
A certain luxury brand also took a copy and paste workmanship on a certain sweaters made by aboriginals in Canada and bse of their laziness the did exact sweater decorative pattern like they were too lazy to try and design it with different patterns.
Reading the comments makes me sad and angry. Yes it's definitely not ok of Dior or whoever, to say something is my idea when it exists long before in other countries. But it's another thing to say, it's only western do something like culture appropriation. I read this way too much in this comment section. can we please not forget that the whole world is taking parts of other cultures? Some businesses in China literally copies everything of every culture. In China they even rebuild parts of historical European cities. Then many poc use western wedding dresses instead of their traditional. And not to forget the cheap copies of worldwide creators you can buy on shein or AliExpress etc. So just stop saying only westerns do culture appropriation. Everybody is taking a part of other cultures and at least it's how humanity grows since thousands of years. It's like even Vikings wear dreadlocks etc. So let people wear, what they like as long as they really like this clothing or hair styles. You never know the stories of their life from just seeing a person. Maybe a person is half half or married with someone of another culture. I grow up between 3 different cultures. German, Italian and Thai. And I really got and attacked because of i life the Thai one too because I don't look like my Thai Granny. Then I start to speak Thai and they're shocked.
We should stop the madness about cultural appropriation. To tell someone, he's not allowed to wear or cook something because of skin color is the epitome of racism. We live in a multi cultural world and that's good. But there are people with a mindset that turns in a dangerous way. There was a special time period during 1930's and 40's in Germany when some people think it's a good idea to separate humans in races. And we all know how it ended. At least people in this time period were not allowed to listen Jazz music etc because this kind of music was not german. They also were allowed to wear only what was seen as ideal North european hair styles and clothes. Sometimes it make me feels like the woke generation wanna go there again and I definitely not support this upcoming western dramaculture of separating humans in colors and cultures again
Except for the West, there is no region that does not recognize the fact of origin of things when using things that are not their own culture. This is why the West cannot accuse others of "cultural appropriation".
When China uses Western architecture and wears Western wedding dresses, it does not claim these things as "classic Chinese architecture and classic Chinese clothing".
Dior basically copied the Chinese Mamianqun completely, but Dior claimed that it is a classic design of Dior. What made Dior so brave to claim to design Mamianqun, a skirt with a history of thousands of years?
Really enjoy your channel and your educational content! Super cool that it allows for horse riding and convenient movement, now I wish I had one!
Thank you for the explanation. Love the thumbnail too you can feel the gentle rage 😂
Thank you so much for doing this video. Very knowledgeable to show the design of the tranditional Chinese MaMian skirt. It clearly shows that Dior is a theft to claim it's "Dior silhouette" and "new fashion item" on its website.
Hello there! That's why crediting the creator is really needed. Haist this cultural appropriation issue should have been dealth good by Dior.
Oh, and from my studies on Western fashion, while there are uses of what we term box pleasts, there is nothing that resembles a Ma Mian.
Thank you for clarifying this, i saw a lot of this topic and really needed an clear explanation, because these days many people scream "Cultural appropriation!" At the very least and little things, and usually the ones saying it are not natives of the culture itself, but it is true in this case. What they did is indeed cultural appropriation. They didn't say "inspired on..." they literally say that is their design when is not. I'm so angry for it. Its not fare. It is common to take inspiration from historical clothing and Chinese inspiration and influence in clothing and accessories is actually well known around the world, you can see many examples, and even from the last centuries by example in the victorian tea gowns, however if you took elements of it for a new thing or some you will wear or sell you need to say it, not claim it like you own original design -.-. Not claim it as their own as that stupid dior company did...
Thank you for this amazing video, as a fashion historian student, fan of chinese clothing and history, of course I'll subscribe to your channel. Thank you. Im learning a lot❤
Thank you for sharing.
I vaguely, so vaguely, remember wearing sth similar. It also got tied around the waist...
Anyway. Great design, I so love practicality! I see why it remained popular.
I would definitely be interested to try to incorporate it into my style.
Of course, Dior not putting 'inspired by' seems very shortsighted. I do wonder what their official response would be?
Even if by some happenstance a designer came up with an idea in the cellar somewhere, never seeing Chinese tradition clothing, of course you check before coming out with your ingenious new idea (or patent). There should be a huge department dedicated to that. And they should have acknowledges similarities either way.
thank u so much for this video and showed the clothes so clearly which give us a clearer picture of Dior's culture appropriation. Now Dior is not only denying the plagiarism, but also claiming that their design was inspired by South Korea, which is really disappointing.
Very well made and informative video!!
This skirt has a very smart design and practical. People came up with this hundreds or years ago, just copying like this and not giving any credit to the original inspiration is stealing.
Well Dior previously used designs from other countries Folk costumes, and I happen to be from one of them and I vividly remember when the news came on TV that Dior used as an inspo our traditional garments. The problem was at the time that in my country people failed to see it as a stealing of design without giving credit but they rather presented it as something to be proud of.
Your ma mian is beautiful and I thank you for bringing this deplorable lapse of moral judgement of Dior's to the forefront. They have embarrassed themselves by doing this. I, a caucasian with a passion for hanfu, am outraged by this overt theft by Dior; and can only imagine how Chinese women and historians feel.
@@xyz7572 Who are you to tell me what I should feel outraged about? Or what defines hyperbole? Are you the language police? Scandalized, offended or angered are synonyms of outrage, perhaps you would like to choose the one which pleases you more? If I choose to exercise my vocabulary, that is my right. Sounds like you're "straight up" scared of big words. Go find something serious to criticize.
想问下我能转发到twitter吗？国内很多人想翻墙出来发声，但有些人不太会英文，想说能不能用你的视频去发声呢？
this skirt style is so ingenious! Dior aside, are there ethical and not appropriating brands that make modern style of this dress (like black or without ornaments, for casual wear?)
Thanks a lot for your voice and clear explanation!
Wait a minute. The leather shoes we are wearing, the suits that Chinese leaders wear, where that originates from. And what about the mobile phones, internet, www etc where did that came from?
Show me where a Chinese leader claims that what he’s wearing is an “original design.” Western clothing are recognized everywhere as western clothing. In fact in China we call those types clothing collectively as “western attire” （西装）
Great video Avenue X. Love the Ma Mian skirt btw - very stylish. Can see why they wanted to copy it 😅
The way you broke down how the different pieces of the skirt help with mobility really makes me want one. I've been watching C dramas for a couple years now and fallen in love with some of the styles. I'm Black and would definitely want to do it in a way that isn't so conspicuous and out of place for me and where I live(I like the silhouettes but would be careful about prints and fabric). And if asked, I'd give credit to these amazing craftspeople and the history.
I think most of us Chinese people would be very excited if you end up wearing such skirts. If I saw it, it'd just scream "this person has some pretty unique interest in Chinese clothes" to me. Though to be honest a lot of Chinese clothes need to be rethought a bit to work better with our modern environments, so options might be slim for now.
I'm so glad you made this video. Cultural appropriation in fashion happens all the time, and has been called out many times. I don't understand why big brands like Dior are still doing this 😭
Thank you for your detailed explanation on why Dior obviously copied the Chinese Mamianqun. There has been a few news article but they did not explain why the design is a copy.
I am Hmong and we have a very similar set up to this flat panel design in the front and back, we wear pants underneath for the same purpose (function) for women. We also have skirts that resemble pleating which we wear with a separate panel in the front to cover the part of the fabric that overlaps.
You are just amazing! Thanks for sharing the information!
I legitimately don't understand why anyone would have a issue with a Italian brand making Chinese clothing. Any human can wear whatever they want.
Your so radical in your belief that your coming full circle back to racism.
No human has the right to tell another human what to wear.
Its not about what to wear or controling who wear what, did u even finish this video before ranting away about racism ? Dior stold Traditional Chinese Skirt and said it is their iconic design ,how would you like it if someone where to steal your artwork and tell the world that hey I come up with this myself ? The bigger problem is Dior is a big brand known worldwide , but not many knew about the Ma mian skirt so next time when Chinese wear their traditional skirt people can turn over and say hey you're copying Dior. No one would have a problem if they just state the historical background behind this design ,in fact Chinese would definitely buy it and loved it If they did that but unfortunately they just pretend to be deaf and blind about the issue.
@@lichinn3613 China steals almost every ounce of IP from companies like apple, intel, sap and so much more so honestly it’s a taste of their own medicine.
@@lichinn3613 i mean, china has been shamelessly copying designs from western brands, the governement chose not to do anything about it, the truth is chinese knock offs funds the black market and it generates money for fraud/illegal activities, even chinese actresses will blatanly wear "branded" gowns from award shows knowing they are fake and copied from the original western designs. I see you care more about a piece of clothing more than the exploited chinese/uyghurs/mongolian laborers that are forced to work is sweatshops in china, i suggest you speak up more on real issues rathere than whine about a fabric
Thank you so much for this video！As a Chinese and Hanfu lover I am really upset for seeing Dior's cultural appropriation of mamian skirt. Thank you again!
Thanks for this video :) I've read about this situation already on Instagram post by Hanfu Girl. But it's great to see the video with the unique sewing characteristics of 馬面. I haven't seen such a detailed video focused on this type of skirt. So, ironically, this situation may contribute greatly to educating people about parts of Hanfu :)
People can make whatever clothes they want. Do you find it necessary that all Chinese t-shirt manufacturers put a notice on their website that they appropriated the design?
it's so sad to see designers do this, especially since it would be such a great opportunity to use the Chinese ma mian design and do a collaboration with a traditional Chinese designer and really give credit where it's due!
Thank you for your video! Chinese people welcome intercultural communication but we don’t accept cultural appropriation. Dior should apologize and clarify the true origin of their inspiration!
Thank you so much for this video!
This looks like it is lined with a dark fabric. Is that true? If it is true, then is the lining also fully pleated (it seems it must be, but I am ignorant and seeking knowledge)? Wonderful video. I like it.
Wait wait wait….. Avenue X has legs 🤯
Your skirt is gorgeous, the pattern is lovely and yes Dior should have acknowledged where the design comes from, it would have saved them much face and loss of earning.
Legs and much more!
😂why would you ever think otherwise?
@@AvenueX123 It’s one of those things 😂 like when you see a tv news reporter behind the desk for years and then all of a sudden you see them stand 😳😳🫣😳🤯🤣
Glad to see you have legs and A Love Never Lost 🤔 seems to be out or maybe not now 🤷🏻♂️ iQIYI honestly 😔
Had Dior been more astute they would have acknowledged the origin of the skirt. People, (especially anyone who could buy that skirt, appreciate and are intrigued by the cleverness and beauty of other cultures’s clothing and accessories.
very informative . thanks Avenue.
Thank you for video. It helped a lot to understand the problem.
Thanks for making this video more informative than anything else. Honestly, as a Chinese, I don't quite ... care and think that it's cultural appropriation...? I don't even think that taking something from another culture and being inspired by it is that big of a deal in this 21st century where everything is so connected. Honestly, i would rather Dior spread it far and wide so that everyone can know about this amazing clothing. Perhaps people just don't like the idea that Dior is making big bucks off of it from an idea that has been around for centuries. But... wtv Dior puts out is gonna have the same price point anws and the same amount of people buying it so... who is riding on whose clout has yet to be seen.
Are korean and japanese skirts/hakama not very similar?
hello! I found your video by chance and it really is the most interesting I've seen on a topic like this. I adore everything that is Asian clothing and it is really true that the style of clothing of the Han skirts is really unique and comfortable, I like that style for clothes that I would like to wear being Spanish, but it is true that Dior does not he had to have put that, he wanted to bring out a product that is becoming popular and he gave it his name, it's horrible. It makes me sad that big brands copy styles without knowing anything about them 😞
I really liked this video. A very informative video on the beauty of this unique skirt. Can you make more videos about other such unique historical attire from China?
People need to know their traditional culture so whenever someone claims something as their original own creation we can easly pointed it' s not.