Hi Noel, great review. I designed that packaging, so thanks for the positive feedback! It was hard to combine new with old, especially as we had to scratch copy the original box. THEVIC20 itself was conceived just to be a limited edition release of THEC64, so essentially the same thing albeit it in a different colour and of course that great PET key font. It also has more VIC20 games built in (with even more if you apply the latest firmware update). Regarding size, there were actually many different mould sizes of both the VIC and C64. So our VIC is for sure the same size as the original, or at least one variant. Same for colour as you stated.
That's very cool! You guys did a fantastic job with it. I also noticed that the pictures of people have been updated to be much more varied and inclusive (but not look out-of-place modern). Great subtle update there! 👍 Really looking forward to seeing anything else you guys come up with next 😃
Great product and very nice looking box, got the original feel to it. Got myself a "The VIC20" for Christmas last year. Looks great on a CRT TV using an HDMI-SCART adapter and "1:1 pixel".
Found A VIC-20 in a dumpster a few years ago. Was in fantastic condition, just a little retrobrighting needed. Still have it. Never used it though, but it's a nice addition to my little computer museum.
One obscure capability of the NTSC VIC-20s was interlaced mode. You could set the interlace bit and everything would continue normally but every other field would be offset downward by half a scanline. This eliminated visible scanline gaps, making the text a bit more pleasing to read.
Less obscure is the fact that the NTSC VIC-20 video output was a LOT better than the PAL version. The chroma signal switched phase 180 degrees each field, meaning that color fringing effects canceled out. This was particularly important because the VIC-20 only had composite output (no S-Video without a hardware mod). With NTSC, the VIC-20 composite output was actually very nice looking.
Same here, I loved that little computer. Sophisticated enough to do some interesting stuff but simple enough understand the whole system. I programmed the hell out of that thing, math programming. :-)
I bought "The C64" at the end of 2019. Its very convenient thanks to the HDMI output and USB storage, I also have a real Breadbin and a 64C machines with the disk drives etc. Not having anywhere to set them up full time meant it would be a long time between retro games sessions. Now I can just plug "The C64" into my TV and go back to the good old days :)
Seems reasonable. The main things acting like an anchor on enthusiasm when it comes time to set up a retro system are the accessories like heavy disk drives and CRT monitors. I think using HDMI is a _more_ authentic experience to be honest, since people back then used the TVs they had -- just like you would be doing now, via HDMI rather than RF or Composite.
I find this interest in old 8bit computers to be interesting. I had a small company that used to make RAM expansion cards called Century Micro. we also created an Assembler called Moses for both the Vic 20 and C64.
FYI, when I bought my original VIC-20 it came with the user guide which I agree is great, but it did not come with the full Programmers Reference Guide. The Programmers Reference Guide was an additional purchase. As I recall it ran around $20 - $25. I still have mine from back in the early 80's.
Hello Noel. I bought both the “The C64” mini & maxi. While the mini was nice, it was too small and lacking a working keyboard. The maxi is much better. So much better, that I sold my old C64c and Amiga 500 plus and kept the replicas. As you said, the replicas are great if you don’t want to tinker with the insides. Also, parts are getting scarcer and more expensive, and as I’m 70 next month, it’s getting beyond my fading dexterity. I’m going to buy the replica “The Amiga”, but will wait for the full size model to be released. Meanwhile, I’m using Cloanto Amiga Forever on my PC and getting a nice enough experience. But, it would be nice to have a console & working keyboard to enhance the experience, which is how I use The C64 maxi - even trying typing in and debugging old magazine programs. I absolutely love your presentation style, delivery and content. Also like Adrian’s Digital Basement (minus candy items) and The 8- Bit Guy. You 3 are my go to for the best content. Please don’t ask me to rank you, because that would be very, very difficult. Stay well and keep doing your thing. Ian from Perth Western Australia (only Tasmania and Antarctica are closer the the end of the world and isolated) 😂🤣
Same here. Once I bought The C64 (I skipped the mini due to no working keyboard) I sold my C64c and all accessories I'd collected. The C64 does everything I want in a much smaller package (no extra brick power supply, floppy drive and monitor cables etc etc). I use The C64 weekly (I was actually just playing it before watching this video) as it comfortably sits on the keyboard shelf of my PC desk, so can stay there all the time. Whereas my original commodore was only used a couple of times a year due to taking up so much room and not being able to be left out on my desk.
I picked up THEC64 when it came out in the US as I never got to experience the Commodore 64 at the time it was out as my parents never needed a computer. It has been great to discover a world of 8-bit that I missed out on. The emulation is good enough for someone new like me while I can certainly understand how people would still love to update their originals. I'm glad this option exists.
I find it really strange to hear the phrase "they didn't need one" I'm not sure anyone "needed" such machines in the 80s. VisiCalc was the first "killer app", invented in my hometown of Arlington, MA, outside of Cambridge. Certainly doing certain tasks on home computers grew very quickly in popularity, especially when the IBM PC came out. So, I'm not really sure what you are saying, is it a humblebrag you came from a poor family? Why mention it at all?
Thanks SO MUCH for using a proper CRT/scan-line mode. So many reviewers and so-called retro experts don't do this and so miss capturing the real look and feel of using these systems back in the day...
I have both The C64 and The VIC20. I also have a real VIC 20 and many C64s aswell. And I am really impressed with The VIC20 and The C64. I love them. Thanks for the video
Thank you for the informative, informed, review. _The VIC 20_ looks like a great machine. The one other emulation which I think would have fit would be a C=128 mode. The keyboard would be wrong, but a number of new capabilities would be added, such as 80-column text, double speed, and CP/M, for those who still might be interested.
I have The64 and play it from time to time. I never had interest in real C64 (I'm from the Atari world), but I really like the form factor and the way it works. I can bring it from the shelf, put two cables and play a game or two, then close. It just works and experience is quite authentic. I wish they did 800XL or 130XE 😁
That makes a lot of sense. It's how I feel about the Nintendo NES Mini and SNES Mini. I never played those back in the day, I'm not a hard-core Nintendo fan, but I love those two devices and all they provide.
I'd buy a new 800XL too for ease of use. It's a couple of months since I used my 800XL and 65 XE going through two adapters to plug into HDMI. The woody retros have been done to death, the 7800 retro was not good at all. So a decent 8bit Atari would be great!
I have one of the The Vic-20’s. The keyboard is what I like about it. Not having any serial/network connectivity is a downside - no BBS or connecting to RPi unless I do something funky with the USB ports…..
@@NoelsRetroLab The keyboard is usb, with a nonstandard connection. I've seen where someone put a standard USB connector on it and connected it to a PC.
THEVIC20 is a beautiful machine; I love the colours and the joystick is great, much improved on the original THEC64 Mini joystick, and the earlier microswitch version bundled with THEC64. The fact that the keyboard mapping is 100% is another plus. And yes. DOOM! That's a great game. I recommend trying the latest firmware, which includes The Keep. The Keep is a 5K 3D engine written by Kweepa (the fact that it's for the unexpanded VIC is unbelievable!), who developed VIC Doom that you featured.
The VIC 20 was my first computer. In fact I still have it. I chucked it in the attic in the mid 80s and there it stayed until last year. Took it down plugged it in (needed a cable to plug into flat screen TV). Fully expecting nothing to happen I switched it on and wow it still works after 40 years. Not only that I plugged in the tape recorder and managed to load up the very first program my brother and I created on boxing Day 1983. I couldn't believe it. Bought a cassette tape from Amazon. Yes they still sell them and backed it up several times. The program loaded first time from tape but several days later whe I got the new tape from Amazon I couldn't load the program. It took over 10 tries. Ahh that's what I remember.
Hello Noel, great video! I didn't own a Commodore back in the day, but a Speccy. But I have always been curious about these machines, and last christmas I purchased TheVic20 and I'm very happy about it, I love to be able to learn C64/Vic20 Basic with the keyboard it was meant to be. About the Input lag measurement method, you measured keypress-to-video lag, you could also measure keypress-to-audio lag with some program which beeps on keypress. The video and audio lags are usually different. One simple measurement method is to record audio, both the keypress sound AND the beep, and measure the lag with an audio program such as audacity. I know emulators with 100ms video lag and 300ms audio lag... Congrats on the video, I also have a similar opinion on the machine.
Hi!. I own a TheC64 and I'm very pleased with it. I never had a C64 in my childhood as I was a ZX Spectrum kid, but I lusted badly for a C64 and now I have a convenient way of owning one. I love it!. Cheers and thanks for the video.
@@NoelsRetroLab Peri Fractic (sp?) showed on UA-cam how to "skin" a 1.44 external USB (as many people used to carry in their laptop bag) to look like mini 1541. An Android device (tablet or cell phone) will format 1.44 3.5ich blank diskettes with a 12-bits FAT table. TheC64 likes that format, and runs it as any USB stick..but with much more interesting sounds from the moving parts. ua-cam.com/video/toGGtkhm-Vg/v-deo.html
I would love it if the people who made The VIC-20 and The C-64 would make their excellent keyboards available as a drop in replacement for the original hardware.
Commodore used several different cases for the original VIC-20. While THE VIC-20 may be thicker than your original VIC-20, it matches the thickness of some of the other VIC-20's Commodore sold.
I wish there was support for printing, maybe as a pdf saved to the usb drive. Printing from the Vic and the C64 was an unique experience and it would be cool to have a way to emulate that experience.
Oh, that's something I hadn't considered! I agree that that would have been a nice touch. I bet that's something that the community working on custom firmwares can make happen.
I don't know if the Windows utilities for printing '80s documents handle PocketWriter, PaperClip, WordWriter....all those C=64 document file structures. GEOS with a 512K RAM enabled by filename flag on The C64 (or limited Edition "The VIC20" from 2020) saves your work within the device#8 file on your USB stick. Printing happens when you insert that stick to a modern computer.
Nice seeing my "Flinale"-demo running on THE VIC-20. Please note that the NTSC-part of the demo will not work since "THE VIC-20" uses the old VICE 2.4-emulator (as far as I know) and this does not support the interlace-feature which the original NTSC VIC-20 has. Even nowadays VICE does not emulate this, but at least work is being done on that finally. I think THE VIC-20 and THE C64 use the older VICE-version as emulator because it can run fast enough on the ARM-board they use. Newer versions of VICE, while more accurate need more processing power and VICE 2.4 still is good enough for 99% of use cases like this.
Ah, interesting! I didn't realize there was that NTSC part. Great demo by the way! 👍 I hear people are working on replacing the emulator with a newer version, so there's a chance that might be happening sometime.
TheVic20 really is a nice device. The difference over emulators, fpga etc is the presentation and an accurately laid out keyboard with all the graphic characters is what elevates it. I do have room for this and one of my real Vic 20's to be set up and love both. If you can find a TheVic20 I would also highly recommend. TheC64 is easier to get hold of and other than the look and built in games line up, is exactly the same and worth getting if you can't find a TheVic20.
My thoughts exactly! I find most emulators vs FPGA discussion to be of a religious level, and there aren't many places where it really matters (there are a few, I'm sure). It's a great device! 👍
I preordered The C64 a year ago, in November when it was released in America there were supply issues and they didn't ship them first come first served so I didn't get mine till mid January. Because of this I also ordered The Vic 20 the same day the C64 released to ensure I would get one by Christmas to bring back a tradition of listening to C64 xmas music while opening presents. I love the devices and as I have an original vic 20 and c64, it gives me a full collection of each. Now I'm setting up a retro desk with wood paneling and 80s tech to set this up as I had it as a kid, just need a 1701/2 monitor. I even bought an empty EZ Flash cartridge to encase my usb drive and hid the wires to make it look more authentic
I hear you. I only came to this project late, but I know that early backers had stuff changed on them or had delayed problems. But that aside, it's a great, fun computer!
18:22 And BOOM, my childhood memories hit me hard...I was playing this on B/W TV though. First time I see in color. VC20 was my first computer, I had a 16kB RAM expansion and tape recorder. It was good for 2 years, before I could put my hands on the beastly C64 (oh boy, those were the times). It was great and cheap machine for that time to introduce you to the computing. Thanks for a review.
The RF output of the Vic 20 was perfectly fine. The main text mode of the computer is 22 8 pixel characters. This is 176 pixels wide. The vertical resolution wasn't much higher. More than good enough for pixel perfect. People hook up classic systems with the wrong cable and with none of the switches cleaned and falsely believe this is what we had in the 80s. With the right cable (not an RCA cable) and brand new channel select switches, the computers back then had pixel perfect screens too. Sitting for 40 years unused means the switches have to be cleaned and NTSC RF should not be sent over an audio (RCA) cable, it should be sent over an RF cable.
This was one of the first computers I ever experienced as a kid. My dad had one and I enjoyed it so much! Thank you for giving me a birthday present idea for him this year!
I had a VIC20 as my first computer and ofcourse back then it meant the world to me. Since I had a C64 I found it to be a underperforming dog and I don’t feel have any nostalgie towards it. I felt more nostalgie when earlier this year I bought an MSX2 that we had in school and I never owned :)
That's the thing about nostalgia... it changes over time. Today you have no love for the Vic 20, but in a month or a year's time, you may feel different. Who knows? You could buy one of these and use it as a C64, or vice versa.
@@another3997 I doubt it in case of the VC20. It wasn’t a very useful or interesting system to me. I have a deep profound love for the C64 or Atari XE/XL and even the MSX. But a VC20 or Speccy, no I don’t see that happening :) If it does for some weird reason I’ll reply to this thread again and let you know I was wrong :)
Man. I love how the whole computer could fit on a small board like that. I had the insane thought myself, based on my "vague" understanding of how it all works, that you could probably build an Apple II+ clone, with a minor difference - Start in a 65C816. Have two ROM slots, one that is the "default", which gives you full access to the features of the chip, the second is for the Apple II+ ROM. If that AII+ ROM is installed, then you a) latch the ROM, so it shows up as the working one, and b) you have what ever GPU setup you put in the thing "emulate" the old Apple II video capabilities. If the ROM is missing, then your the "comes with it" ROM would a) give access to something "more modern" in graphics, b) provide access to a full 16mb (on a single chip), minus the parts used for the bank 00 and 01 ROMs, c) maybe also take up some room, such as in the FE/FF banks, which the IIgs used (or, if you wanted to make it able to emulate that, FD or something, with a "system bios" type thing, which would let you make some adjustments to how things work. d) since you are latching the ROMs, you could also latch the clock speed, so it runs at the original 1mhz when in "emulation mode", and at full speed otherwise. e) Also use the 65C816's added calls to have a way to "call" functionality in what would have to be a bank FE/FF area, to "turn on" the native mode, and bypass the emulation, from disc (might need this anyway, since the chip, I think, "starts" executing in 65C02 mode, I think. But, basically, with some minor quibbles, you could probably still use an actual 65C816 chip, 1-2 ROMs, a modern 16mb SDRAM chip, and some sort of video chip, the clock logic and a few other things and "build" a working computer, which "might be" able to at least run old Apple II stuff, if you don't mind it not being able to use all the peripherals from the old machines. Or, I am utterly nuts, and this simply wouldn't work. Sadly, not being a) rich, b) connected to someone/something that would let me experiment, or c) actually ever built anything more complex than a transistor tester kit (which didn't work, and I still haven't got around to 'debugging' to figure out why), I don't have the time, the skill, or the money, to try... Sigh... But, seems like everyone making these things just goes with, "Oh, I can be clever and, instead of trying to semi-match the original chip, lets use a Raspberry PI!" But.. to me this misses the point, because watching the vids by Ben Eater, on how a freaking 8 bit machine actually works, in which he literally "builds one, from the 6502 up, one section at time, on bread boards" - that freaking impressed me, and I learned more in 3 days watching those vids that I *ever* knew, or could have learned running an emulation program on a Pi....
Great stuff! I own "The C64" which works fine in VIC-20 mode. I would actually prefer "The VIC-20", but they don't sell them in the USA. I enjoy mine just fine, but usually just use real hardware
Yes, it looks like TheVIC20 was never easily available in the States. Physical distribution is hard! But hey, at least you got a TheC64, which is also great.
@@67amiga I'm in the US. I really want one, but I tried looking and Amazon is saying it's "unavailable", even with the link Noel posted in the description.
I have both TheC64 and TheVIC20. My 20 is still boxed since it is essentially the same. I appreciate the ease of use and access to games to show off C64 in a general sense to my friends or fire up a quick game. I have a late model VIC and a PET style keyboard version on the way.
I bet someone here in the comments would happily buy TheVic20 from you if you put it up for sale (since you already have a TheC64, they're kind of the same thing). That's really cool you found a PET-style keyboard VIC-20. I haven't even seen one in real life.
I used to have a "TheC64 Mini" a while back, and while of course that means no real keyboard, even just the fact it was emulated meant it felt less authentic. It pushed me to get a real C64 from eBay though, so I have to thank it for that. Using the real hardware just feels far more authentic than an amulator, even if it's housed in a perfect recreation shell. But for the majority of people, I absolutely agree with you. These beauties are a perfect match. And I always love to tinker with things that run a Linux core!
It is! I skipped "The 64" in favour of a real C64, which was restored and a little bit modified for use in modern environment. But the colour scheme and the design of the case itself is really intriguing. Also the PETSCII keycaps are hilariously beautiful. I prefer this more than the overall look of "The 64". And the fact i can do the same with it as with "The 64" is why it will find its way in my collection ... one day or another. Thank you for the vid! It was really nice to watch.
Awesome video! I really enjoyed your style and how you've integrated general usage tips into the review. I also appreciate your perspective on emulation in general. Emulation is often viewed in a negative way, but I believe it is crucial to the preservation of our gaming history. There are many advantages emulation offers over OG hardware, and many of us would not have been able to experience these wonderful computers from our past without it. Great review my friend, thanks for uploading 😃👍🏻
The VIC20 God Damn near cured me of EVER touching a computer ever again. Bought it used from a friend, had an audio recorder "hard drive" and a junk tube portable TV "display." Some time later I bought a used bleeding edge desktop, DOS 3. something, small amber display, and the rest was all downhill from there. I had a 29MB hard drive been added, and I found the receipt inside the machine. It was more than 2 grand (US) for the hard drive and controller!!! I think I paid 150US for the thing, 8 1/4 floppies 'n all!!!
11 місяців тому
I managed to find a VIC-20 on eBay in the "PET keyboard" version (2-pin power socket), plus the older datasette model + a few extensions (3K, 16K). The machine is in "like new" condition. Originally, the computer was simply intended to join my collection. I've never owned a VIC before, and the hardware specs don't look impressive compared to the C64. Nevertheless... I connected the SD2IEC, ran a number of demos and games and... I'm shocked! What you can get out of this equipment is amazing! And besides... an original is still... an original. Computers from that time have a "soul", each one is unique and unfortunately, IMHO, even the best emulator does not have it... Thanks for the great review anyway!
One thing I would like to see them add support for or make an own machine out of is the Commodore 16 or Plus/4. Would be cool to have a "The C16" in a black breadbin case. Anyways, this looks like a very decent machine! If I didn't already have a VIC-20 and a C64, I would've been very tempted to buy one. I love that they went with the PET style keyboard! If a "The C16" would ever see the light of day, then I would most likely buy it since I don't have an original machine.
A C16/Plus 4 mode would have been a nice addition. The C-16 shares the form factor. And the Commodore 16/Plus 4 probably isn't a well known enough product to warrant a full release model.
Awesome & comprehensive review! Thank you so much for the video! I’m on the fence about whether to pick this THE C64 “Vic 20 maxi version” or THE C64 “standard maxi”. I have no nostalgia for either of them, as I grew up with an Apple II, but I love retro collecting so I want to know which of the two is a better package to buy, enjoy, & display. Thanks!
I realize most people buying these types of machines are mostly interested in gaming, but I would be very interested in their ability to run BBS software. Packages like Ivory, CNet, Image, etc... it would be very interesting to see.
Awesome Review. I own both ,THEC64 and THEVIC20 which I think are amazing. The case on your real Vic 20 is i believe is the MK2 Slim version. I do have a couple of real Vic 20's here myself with the larger case and they are identical in size to THEVIC20. But going back to your review .. Excellent !! I literally agree with everything you said which is unusual for me :)
Thank you! Yes, those devices are fantastic! It's interesting to hear that the slim VIC20 is the later version. Somehow I figured that was the original, and they later switched to the larger version for the C64 breadbin.
I imported The VIC 20 because I couldn't get the C64. I really like it, and I can always switch between the C64 and VIC20 modes. The only thing I don't like, is that there's almost like.. a highlighter neon yellow sheen on the case under certain light.
What an excellent review 👍🏻 probably the best made review I have seen of "the VIC20". Good balance between information, facts, and general use. As usual a joy to follow you channel, Thanks 😃
Fantastic review, Noel and i really enjoyed watching this video. I was bought the "TheC64 Maxi" for Christmas 2020 by my good lady wife and my son ( i've always been a Commodore fan since the late 80's ) and i love having the option of both the TheC64 and TheVic20 modes. I'm going to pass on buying the next upcoming machine ( The A500 Mini ) and wait till the Maxi version is launched but i really enjoy emulation of retro computers on my desktop pc and on my Raspberry Pi ( mostly for Amiga emulation though ). Keep up the brilliant videos my friend :)
remember you can download updates for it from the retrogames website on a usb stick and formatted for FAT32 with MBR the updates will help with the input lag
The (original) VIC 20 (germany: VC-20) is still missing in my small Commodore collection. Thanks for the comparison which helps me to the decide whether to go for the original (and expensive) or the recreation :-)
The original isn't that expensive (I guess it gets a bit pricier if you want it with the original box), but then when you start counting memory upgrades, SD cartridges, and other add-ons, yes, it ends up being significantly more expensive.
I had that one - bought it myself for 400 DM at the time. But like I said earlier, it got scrapped It even had been upgraded to multi-ROM and switches to include and exclude RAM and make it R/O (like loadable ROM) and a dad-self-made PSU to remove the Hot power converter from the 9V AC to 5V DC using a Canon D style connector instead...
Hi Noel! Very nice video! Showing the things under the hood, SW and HW, is really great. You maybe can't experiment that much with HW but even more with SW. I own THE C64. What I like about it?! I can connect it to my big LCD TV and play games in the living room, like I've done as a kid! 👍
That's a really great point that I didn't think about, because for me I want to use it in my "lab" and there I barely have any HDMI inputs (I had to hook it up to the PC monitor!). But I can see that being a big plus for a lot of people.
I got a Vic-20 in college. It was 1982. I decided to get a complete math degree in two semesters. I figured out a way to hook my tiny Vic-20 to the University Vac 4040(?) through my rotary phone. I finished a math degree in two semesters with a 3.95. What were you saying?
The user port probably could be easily emulated with the SoC GPIO mostly because the protocol is simple and a few protocols like serial it's natively supported by it, the main 2 problems are the emulator who would be tied to the SoC and the power level, 9V and more a than 100mA, which would fry the SoC
@Mr Guru Big deal. Newer hardware can also save information about overvoltages and the like. Car audio amplifier manufacturers started putting micros that could do that in their products in the 90's.
@@misterhat5823 LOL! Car Audio manufacturers didn't make THEVIC20/THEC64. Without proper hardware level protection losers will just blow up the computer. If you want to play with circuits and electronics use a Pi because it was designed for learning.
Thank you Noel for another fabulous video, in depth and well presented as always. The VIC20 was something of an important place in the timeline. Still quirky but beyond doubt aimed at the consumer and marketed as such, the the TI99 as equally quirky with even more odd design decisions was just too expensive as were the more capable Atari 8bit machines. It's amazing what can be achieved but as the audience gets older for retro machines the emphasis will soon move entirely to the Nintendo generation. Sad for me when I stared my home computer journey at the end of the 70s, so many of the machines I remember will never find the way in to FPGA or emulation and some later ones too. Does an FPGA Lisa core exist? Being consumer machines and the age group doing all this fabulous work naturally the focus is on game preservation side of matters, Mister development is almost all console and arcade focused now when these lates 70s machines cannot be to complex.
You're welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed it. Interesting the comment about the 70s computers not being worked on as much. That's something I hadn't considered before. I imagine it's due to just MANY fewer people being exposed to them than the 80s one during the home computer explosion. That's too bad. Now it makes me want to look into them even more 😃
I am going to get a The C64. in a few weeks, I never had one I was a ZX Spectrum user, like the ZX the C64 had a keyboard that was only used by the machine. Emulation is the way to go now. Not many have displays that support old hardware.
My plan is to get my kids "The C64" and a load of old programming books (reprints most likely) and let them start about where I did. My oldest is 10 so he's at the perfect age to actually learn how a real computer works. I have an original C64, but with no peripherals it's a bit of a challenge for him to work with. I did get him started playing some old games with VICE and he seems to like it quite well. I'm hoping Apple will come out with a "Apple ][ Mini", but I'll probably just build one for him with a RPI.
The lack of user ports puts me off. I've got both the Harlequin and the Element ZX computers, They both use original Specrum ROMs and Z80 CPU and are 128K with stereo AY sound. The Harlequin fits inside either the rubber keyboard case or the Spectrum+. And the Element fits inside the Spectrum +2/+2A/+2B case. They also have the edge connector which is 100% compatible with 80's add-ons as well as tape in/out.
Apples and oranges, chalk and cheese. Boards liked the Harlequin are really great, but they are really aimed at a different market. Designing, testing and producing a new, custom PCB for an 8 bit machine with a genuine Z80 and hardware expansion ports is going to be more difficult and expensive. Not to mention, more limited and less flexible. But it's good to have choices, so you can buy what suits you best.
I can see that. It's quite different though. The Harlequin is just a re-implementation of the same computer (with some stuff added). That way it's closer to that C64 replica board I looked at a few videos ago. I would have been thrilled if they allowed some kind of serial communication over USB. That alone would have made it almost perfect for me.
@@NoelsRetroLab Yes, that's fair enough. You think they would have at least put an SD card in The VIC-20, so you can select what other games you want to install.
Oh nice it has C64 built in- I missed the run of the C64 maxi. I would miss the original keyboard but having said that I grew up with a C64C anyway so if I wanted an original experience would go with that. Cool it comes with a decent 🕹️
VIC-20 in some form is on my list of systems I want to pick up. All I have for Commodore right now is a Plus/4. Oddly, for such a notoriously unreliable system, that was sold as not powering up at all, it works *perfectly*. I'm not sure what the sellers issue was, I can speculate but I really don't know.
I had it in 81 or 82... in Germany it was called VC-20... VolksComputer 20 maybe in relation to Volkswagen... I remember putting my alarm clock to 5o in the morning... because the tape deck was so slow and I had to leave at 7o... so I could played maybe three rounds of Asteroids before school... LOL³ I still have a Competition Pro joystick WITHOUT micro switches but silver blades. MUCH BETTER and with some skills it could always be returned into shortest switch ways... when the rubber degraded... just some tape on the metal cylinder would make it fit again... and a simple piece of flat wood to screw it on would save your hands in demanding games.
I got the C64 version, then almost immediately modded it to have a standard 9 pin joystick port and four little buttons to access the menus on the left side of the case. The supplied USB joystick is pretty good, but the (weird?) way I hold the stick means I have a tendency to catch those triangular shoulder buttons when I don't want to, and besides I really wanted to use my favourite vintage stick. I likely could have used an external USB adapter, but I used one of those arcade stick to USB boards on the inside to wire up the port and buttons - there's lots of free space in there after all!
Interesting. You actually added a 9-pin port to the case, or is it some kind of adapter to USB? You can also use the keys to navigate the menus, but they're not exactly very intuitive I found.
@@NoelsRetroLab I used a 'zero delay' arcade stick to USB adaptor board to add a 9 pin joystick port inside the case and soldered the USB side to the back of one of the three USB ports on the other side. I put a little rubber dust cap in that same USB port on the outside so I can't plug anything else into it by mistake (I preferred that to having the wire exit the case and loop around to plug into the USB socket from the outside - it looks neater and more 'authentic' to have it all internal).
Great presentation. The Vic20 was my first computer. If I brought this machine, would I be able to use it as a lynux machine when I got bored of playing Vic20 games?
My 2nd computer was a VIC-20, err the Original one, lol (First was a ZX-81) Then a Commodore 64, Commodore 128 (I still have this) and then Amiga(s). PC's these days, not a Windows user though. That OS is vile to me.
Thank you! I keep seeing TheC64 fairly easily available in the US I think. TheVIC20 on the other hand seems to be impossible to get over there. That's a bummer.
Sadly,the emulators I have had a go with were not useful for programming my own work and saving my own games on. So I went back to using my old machines. If I wanted an emulator ......there are plenty on android and for pc. The best innovational tech I ever found for my original machines was a scart output which allowed me to project my 1985 tech onto the wall of my house. My neighbours freaked when they saw me playing David Braben's ELITE in my back garden with the kids on a summer evening. >Looking forward to knocking up a silent fireworks display for nov5th.
I have this machine, I got it in january. I had the real C=64 when I was a kid, but it stopped working. I have the emulator Vice and I have copied a lot of games from old magazines. I wanted to buy the "C64 Maxi", but it was out of stock, so I got this one instead. I have to say that I'm very satisfied, the emulation is great and all my games work perfectly. Also, you can feel the experience of "using real hardware". The latest updates add some new games to the carousel and the option to swap the joystick ports. It's great to write programs in Vice and then test them in this machine. But the emulator has a big problem: the lack of the graphic symbols in the keyboard. Now you can write programs like in the 80s. The only two things that I don't like are the fact that this machine only have an hdmi port, I had to buy an adaptor in order to use the computer in the old Tv of my room. But this gives the image a little blur that makes it look as if I'm playing with the real computer, and I like it. The other one is that I find the joystick a bit stiff (I usually play with gamepads), and playing fast action games, like shooters, is uncomfortable. Anyway as I said, I like this computer, and I'm having a very good experience. Totally recommended if you had one of these when you were a kid.
Very good points! What do you mean the lack of graphic characters in the emulator? You can't type the graphics on the front of the keys??? (I didn't check that!)
@@NoelsRetroLab I mean that the Pc keyboard does not have these special symbols printed on it (the ones that you get by pressing Shift + a key). So, when you write a program with Vice, you need a reference to remember which keys to press to get this symbol printed on screen. With the "The Vic20/C64 Maxi", these problem is solved.
Great review. I never had a Commodore 64 (brother once had a Vic-20 though), but for me - I really wish someone would do this for the Amstrad CPC 6128. I'd love to get my hands on a "modern" 6128 that can do HD graphics, and load files off a USB drive - using a 6128 keyboard of course as most of the nostalgia is in the keyboard. It could be switchable between 464/6128. Proper retro machines off eBay are stupidly priced.
The Amstrad is much easier to interface with modern devices than the VIC20, I think since it outputs an RGB signal directly. But yes, it could be fun to have a similar treatment. While they're at it, they should add a Plus mode as well! 😃
Cool!! I had a C64, not the VIC20. So interesting. Doom showed the display in a little 8x8 area, requiring only 64 distinct characters to reprogram each frame. For those still pictures, on the other hand, it looks like it was taking advantage of the raster interrupts and quickly changing the color of something (background or character color) to draw out a "hires" picture with lots of colors that wouldn't normally be possible. However, the limited size of the picture on the screen in this case (I'm guessing) was the amount of RAM available, even with the expansion.
@@NoelsRetroLab Certainly did! I got my Commodore 16 shorty afterwards. My friend (who always had more ££!) then got a Commodore 64 which blew me away, got one of those then an Amiga 500. Then a few years with Japanese consoles (PC Engine, Sega MegaDrive, Super Nintendo, Neo Geo, PC Engine GT), then it became my job to fix them!! (Which I LOVED!). We then moved onto selling PC's and component level repairs were a thing of the past, all board swaps etc). I still have a Super Monaco GP Airdrive arcade machine in my garage (which replaced Outrun, soooo wish I'd kept that one too but didn't have the funds or the room). I now love watching channels like this :)
I have the North American The C64 Mini and just love it. I don’t care what purists say, if it weren’t because of emulation, I wouldn’t experienced those great games ( try getting them on this side of the pond). Unfortunately, this version is locked on 60hz and doesn’t play VIC-20 stuff. I hope they fix that in the next update.
I don't know. Someone else was just talking about that. Or maybe, without cutting anything, putting the keyboard of this one on an original VIC-20 with an adapter. I wonder if it's possible...
Me too! I'm trying not to let my imagination run wild, being able to switch between every Amiga model, toggle graphic modes, use extra-high resolutions, turn on virtual accelerators... Must... stop... thinking... that... 😃
The inside reminds me of the amstrad cpc 464 with the newer PCB that was practically half the size so had all that space unused inside. Plenty space for a lithium ion battery 🔋
Good point. I didn't think much about it, but that leaves room for a LOT of possible expansions. Too bad that's going to be much harder to do with that kind of hardware though.
Great video Noel. And the 'proof of the pudding is in the eating'. There is no proof in the pudding. Agree, Vic 20 & C64 is just right. And a good keyboard means everything.
I have The C64 Mini and have been frustrated by its limitations, due to lack of a usable keyboard. With the announcement of The C64 Maxi, I have had high hopes for an improvement. However, the delays bringing it to the North American market (I am in Canada) have been far from acceptable. So at this point, I don't see any point in holding out for a product that I can duplicate on my PC just as easily.
Hi Noel, great review. I designed that packaging, so thanks for the positive feedback! It was hard to combine new with old, especially as we had to scratch copy the original box. THEVIC20 itself was conceived just to be a limited edition release of THEC64, so essentially the same thing albeit it in a different colour and of course that great PET key font. It also has more VIC20 games built in (with even more if you apply the latest firmware update).
Regarding size, there were actually many different mould sizes of both the VIC and C64. So our VIC is for sure the same size as the original, or at least one variant. Same for colour as you stated.
That's very cool! You guys did a fantastic job with it. I also noticed that the pictures of people have been updated to be much more varied and inclusive (but not look out-of-place modern). Great subtle update there! 👍 Really looking forward to seeing anything else you guys come up with next 😃
The C64 has become impossible to find at least in North America so I'm wondering if any more will be produced?
Great product and very nice looking box, got the original feel to it. Got myself a "The VIC20" for Christmas last year. Looks great on a CRT TV using an HDMI-SCART adapter and "1:1 pixel".
Found A VIC-20 in a dumpster a few years ago. Was in fantastic condition, just a little retrobrighting needed. Still have it. Never used it though, but it's a nice addition to my little computer museum.
Nice! Time to dust it out and start using it. It's a super-limited, but really fun computer.
The C64 has come a LONG way from the Mini. I love it!
One obscure capability of the NTSC VIC-20s was interlaced mode. You could set the interlace bit and everything would continue normally but every other field would be offset downward by half a scanline. This eliminated visible scanline gaps, making the text a bit more pleasing to read.
Less obscure is the fact that the NTSC VIC-20 video output was a LOT better than the PAL version. The chroma signal switched phase 180 degrees each field, meaning that color fringing effects canceled out. This was particularly important because the VIC-20 only had composite output (no S-Video without a hardware mod). With NTSC, the VIC-20 composite output was actually very nice looking.
The Commodore VIC-20 was my first computer. When I bought the floppy disk attachment I thought I had died and gone to heaven.
Same here, I loved that little computer. Sophisticated enough to do some interesting stuff but simple enough understand the whole system. I programmed the hell out of that thing, math programming. :-)
Is there a way to connect a c64 floppy drive to it?
@@blackterminal No idea; sorry. I don't even remember what I did with my VIC-20 and I never owned a C-64.
I bought "The C64" at the end of 2019.
Its very convenient thanks to the HDMI output and USB storage, I also have a real Breadbin and a 64C machines with the disk drives etc. Not having anywhere to set them up full time meant it would be a long time between retro games sessions.
Now I can just plug "The C64" into my TV and go back to the good old days :)
Exactly. It's a very nice alternative to the real system.
I sold all my C64s and Vic 20s as I don't have the nostalgia for them, and they were taking up too much space. But now I want one of these!
It probably is the perfect machine for you: 4 machines in one, nice and compact, no maintenance, hook it up to any TV. You know what to do 😃
Seems reasonable. The main things acting like an anchor on enthusiasm when it comes time to set up a retro system are the accessories like heavy disk drives and CRT monitors. I think using HDMI is a _more_ authentic experience to be honest, since people back then used the TVs they had -- just like you would be doing now, via HDMI rather than RF or Composite.
I find this interest in old 8bit computers to be interesting. I had a small company that used to make RAM expansion cards called Century Micro. we also created an Assembler called Moses for both the Vic 20 and C64.
FYI, when I bought my original VIC-20 it came with the user guide which I agree is great, but it did not come with the full Programmers Reference Guide. The Programmers Reference Guide was an additional purchase. As I recall it ran around $20 - $25. I still have mine from back in the early 80's.
Hello Noel. I bought both the “The C64” mini & maxi. While the mini was nice, it was too small and lacking a working keyboard. The maxi is much better. So much better, that I sold my old C64c and Amiga 500 plus and kept the replicas. As you said, the replicas are great if you don’t want to tinker with the insides. Also, parts are getting scarcer and more expensive, and as I’m 70 next month, it’s getting beyond my fading dexterity.
I’m going to buy the replica “The Amiga”, but will wait for the full size model to be released. Meanwhile, I’m using Cloanto Amiga Forever on my PC and getting a nice enough experience. But, it would be nice to have a console & working keyboard to enhance the experience, which is how I use The C64 maxi - even trying typing in and debugging old magazine programs.
I absolutely love your presentation style, delivery and content. Also like Adrian’s Digital Basement (minus candy items) and The 8- Bit Guy. You 3 are my go to for the best content. Please don’t ask me to rank you, because that would be very, very difficult.
Stay well and keep doing your thing. Ian from Perth Western Australia (only Tasmania and Antarctica are closer the the end of the world and isolated) 😂🤣
Same here. Once I bought The C64 (I skipped the mini due to no working keyboard) I sold my C64c and all accessories I'd collected. The C64 does everything I want in a much smaller package (no extra brick power supply, floppy drive and monitor cables etc etc). I use The C64 weekly (I was actually just playing it before watching this video) as it comfortably sits on the keyboard shelf of my PC desk, so can stay there all the time. Whereas my original commodore was only used a couple of times a year due to taking up so much room and not being able to be left out on my desk.
I picked up THEC64 when it came out in the US as I never got to experience the Commodore 64 at the time it was out as my parents never needed a computer. It has been great to discover a world of 8-bit that I missed out on. The emulation is good enough for someone new like me while I can certainly understand how people would still love to update their originals. I'm glad this option exists.
Absolutely! I think that's perfect for someone new to the C64 world (and even for people who are already into Commodores). Great product!
I find it really strange to hear the phrase "they didn't need one" I'm not sure anyone "needed" such machines in the 80s. VisiCalc was the first "killer app", invented in my hometown of Arlington, MA, outside of Cambridge. Certainly doing certain tasks on home computers grew very quickly in popularity, especially when the IBM PC came out. So, I'm not really sure what you are saying, is it a humblebrag you came from a poor family? Why mention it at all?
Thanks SO MUCH for using a proper CRT/scan-line mode. So many reviewers and so-called retro experts don't do this and so miss capturing the real look and feel of using these systems back in the day...
I have both The C64 and The VIC20. I also have a real VIC 20 and many C64s aswell. And I am really impressed with The VIC20 and The C64. I love them. Thanks for the video
Couldn't agree more! Cheers.
Thank you for the informative, informed, review. _The VIC 20_ looks like a great machine.
The one other emulation which I think would have fit would be a C=128 mode. The keyboard would be wrong, but a number of new capabilities would be added, such as 80-column text, double speed, and CP/M, for those who still might be interested.
This is great. I can finally try a Vic 20 and C64. I never got to have one when I was a kid.
I have The64 and play it from time to time. I never had interest in real C64 (I'm from the Atari world), but I really like the form factor and the way it works. I can bring it from the shelf, put two cables and play a game or two, then close. It just works and experience is quite authentic. I wish they did 800XL or 130XE 😁
That makes a lot of sense. It's how I feel about the Nintendo NES Mini and SNES Mini. I never played those back in the day, I'm not a hard-core Nintendo fan, but I love those two devices and all they provide.
I'd buy a new 800XL too for ease of use. It's a couple of months since I used my 800XL and 65 XE going through two adapters to plug into HDMI.
The woody retros have been done to death, the 7800 retro was not good at all. So a decent 8bit Atari would be great!
I have one of the The Vic-20’s. The keyboard is what I like about it. Not having any serial/network connectivity is a downside - no BBS or connecting to RPi unless I do something funky with the USB ports…..
Agreed. The keyboard is fantastic! It would have been perfect with a serial communication over USB.
@@NoelsRetroLab The keyboard is usb, with a nonstandard connection. I've seen where someone put a standard USB connector on it and connected it to a PC.
@Derek Etnyre Regarding your wording, the _"the The Vic-20's"_ part may receive a bit of flack. 🤣👏
THEVIC20 is a beautiful machine; I love the colours and the joystick is great, much improved on the original THEC64 Mini joystick, and the earlier microswitch version bundled with THEC64. The fact that the keyboard mapping is 100% is another plus. And yes. DOOM! That's a great game. I recommend trying the latest firmware, which includes The Keep. The Keep is a 5K 3D engine written by Kweepa (the fact that it's for the unexpanded VIC is unbelievable!), who developed VIC Doom that you featured.
Yes, it's beautiful! Thanks for the tip. I'll check out The Keep 👍
The VIC 20 was my first computer. In fact I still have it. I chucked it in the attic in the mid 80s and there it stayed until last year. Took it down plugged it in (needed a cable to plug into flat screen TV). Fully expecting nothing to happen I switched it on and wow it still works after 40 years. Not only that I plugged in the tape recorder and managed to load up the very first program my brother and I created on boxing Day 1983. I couldn't believe it. Bought a cassette tape from Amazon. Yes they still sell them and backed it up several times. The program loaded first time from tape but several days later whe I got the new tape from Amazon I couldn't load the program. It took over 10 tries. Ahh that's what I remember.
Hello Noel, great video! I didn't own a Commodore back in the day, but a Speccy. But I have always been curious about these machines, and last christmas I purchased TheVic20 and I'm very happy about it, I love to be able to learn C64/Vic20 Basic with the keyboard it was meant to be.
About the Input lag measurement method, you measured keypress-to-video lag, you could also measure keypress-to-audio lag with some program which beeps on keypress. The video and audio lags are usually different. One simple measurement method is to record audio, both the keypress sound AND the beep, and measure the lag with an audio program such as audacity. I know emulators with 100ms video lag and 300ms audio lag...
Congrats on the video, I also have a similar opinion on the machine.
Thanks! Good point about measuring both video and audio delay. I'll try doing that next time it comes up. Cheers!
I got TheC64 for Christmas last year and its a permanent fixture with the big TV in the living room, sat next to my Wii, PS4 and Xbox Series X :)
Hi!. I own a TheC64 and I'm very pleased with it. I never had a C64 in my childhood as I was a ZX Spectrum kid, but I lusted badly for a C64 and now I have a convenient way of owning one. I love it!. Cheers and thanks for the video.
Nice! Thanks for sharing!
I have the C64 and managed to attach a floppy drive to it. Makes it even more retro.
How did you do that? Some custom firmware that enabled communication over USB ports?
@@NoelsRetroLab no. Worked with Retro Recipes and he published a video on it. ua-cam.com/video/toGGtkhm-Vg/v-deo.html
@@NoelsRetroLab Peri Fractic (sp?) showed on UA-cam how to "skin" a 1.44 external USB (as many people used to carry in their laptop bag) to look like mini 1541. An Android device (tablet or cell phone) will format 1.44 3.5ich blank diskettes with a 12-bits FAT table. TheC64 likes that format, and runs it as any USB stick..but with much more interesting sounds from the moving parts. ua-cam.com/video/toGGtkhm-Vg/v-deo.html
I would love it if the people who made The VIC-20 and The C-64 would make their excellent keyboards available as a drop in replacement for the original hardware.
That would be AMAZING! It would probably be possible too. Hmm... now you're giving me ideas for more projects 😃
Commodore used several different cases for the original VIC-20. While THE VIC-20 may be thicker than your original VIC-20, it matches the thickness of some of the other VIC-20's Commodore sold.
You're right. I didn't realize that at the time. Apparently Commodore just grabbed whatever they had on hand at the time 😃
@@NoelsRetroLab Yes... just like they did with RAM chips, apparently. lol
I wish there was support for printing, maybe as a pdf saved to the usb drive. Printing from the Vic and the C64 was an unique experience and it would be cool to have a way to emulate that experience.
Oh, that's something I hadn't considered! I agree that that would have been a nice touch. I bet that's something that the community working on custom firmwares can make happen.
I don't know if the Windows utilities for printing '80s documents handle PocketWriter, PaperClip, WordWriter....all those C=64 document file structures. GEOS with a 512K RAM enabled by filename flag on The C64 (or limited Edition "The VIC20" from 2020) saves your work within the device#8 file on your USB stick. Printing happens when you insert that stick to a modern computer.
Nice seeing my "Flinale"-demo running on THE VIC-20. Please note that the NTSC-part of the demo will not work since "THE VIC-20" uses the old VICE 2.4-emulator (as far as I know) and this does not support the interlace-feature which the original NTSC VIC-20 has. Even nowadays VICE does not emulate this, but at least work is being done on that finally. I think THE VIC-20 and THE C64 use the older VICE-version as emulator because it can run fast enough on the ARM-board they use. Newer versions of VICE, while more accurate need more processing power and VICE 2.4 still is good enough for 99% of use cases like this.
Ah, interesting! I didn't realize there was that NTSC part. Great demo by the way! 👍 I hear people are working on replacing the emulator with a newer version, so there's a chance that might be happening sometime.
TheVic20 really is a nice device. The difference over emulators, fpga etc is the presentation and an accurately laid out keyboard with all the graphic characters is what elevates it.
I do have room for this and one of my real Vic 20's to be set up and love both. If you can find a TheVic20 I would also highly recommend. TheC64 is easier to get hold of and other than the look and built in games line up, is exactly the same and worth getting if you can't find a TheVic20.
My thoughts exactly! I find most emulators vs FPGA discussion to be of a religious level, and there aren't many places where it really matters (there are a few, I'm sure). It's a great device! 👍
I preordered The C64 a year ago, in November when it was released in America there were supply issues and they didn't ship them first come first served so I didn't get mine till mid January. Because of this I also ordered The Vic 20 the same day the C64 released to ensure I would get one by Christmas to bring back a tradition of listening to C64 xmas music while opening presents. I love the devices and as I have an original vic 20 and c64, it gives me a full collection of each. Now I'm setting up a retro desk with wood paneling and 80s tech to set this up as I had it as a kid, just need a 1701/2 monitor. I even bought an empty EZ Flash cartridge to encase my usb drive and hid the wires to make it look more authentic
I hear you. I only came to this project late, but I know that early backers had stuff changed on them or had delayed problems. But that aside, it's a great, fun computer!
18:22 And BOOM, my childhood memories hit me hard...I was playing this on B/W TV though. First time I see in color. VC20 was my first computer, I had a 16kB RAM expansion and tape recorder.
It was good for 2 years, before I could put my hands on the beastly C64 (oh boy, those were the times).
It was great and cheap machine for that time to introduce you to the computing. Thanks for a review.
The RF output of the Vic 20 was perfectly fine. The main text mode of the computer is 22 8 pixel characters. This is 176 pixels wide. The vertical resolution wasn't much higher. More than good enough for pixel perfect.
People hook up classic systems with the wrong cable and with none of the switches cleaned and falsely believe this is what we had in the 80s. With the right cable (not an RCA cable) and brand new channel select switches, the computers back then had pixel perfect screens too. Sitting for 40 years unused means the switches have to be cleaned and NTSC RF should not be sent over an audio (RCA) cable, it should be sent over an RF cable.
This was one of the first computers I ever experienced as a kid. My dad had one and I enjoyed it so much! Thank you for giving me a birthday present idea for him this year!
I had a VIC20 as my first computer and ofcourse back then it meant the world to me. Since I had a C64 I found it to be a underperforming dog and I don’t feel have any nostalgie towards it. I felt more nostalgie when earlier this year I bought an MSX2 that we had in school and I never owned :)
That's the thing about nostalgia... it changes over time. Today you have no love for the Vic 20, but in a month or a year's time, you may feel different. Who knows? You could buy one of these and use it as a C64, or vice versa.
@@another3997 I doubt it in case of the VC20. It wasn’t a very useful or interesting system to me. I have a deep profound love for the C64 or Atari XE/XL and even the MSX. But a VC20 or Speccy, no I don’t see that happening :) If it does for some weird reason I’ll reply to this thread again and let you know I was wrong :)
Man. I love how the whole computer could fit on a small board like that. I had the insane thought myself, based on my "vague" understanding of how it all works, that you could probably build an Apple II+ clone, with a minor difference - Start in a 65C816. Have two ROM slots, one that is the "default", which gives you full access to the features of the chip, the second is for the Apple II+ ROM. If that AII+ ROM is installed, then you a) latch the ROM, so it shows up as the working one, and b) you have what ever GPU setup you put in the thing "emulate" the old Apple II video capabilities. If the ROM is missing, then your the "comes with it" ROM would a) give access to something "more modern" in graphics, b) provide access to a full 16mb (on a single chip), minus the parts used for the bank 00 and 01 ROMs, c) maybe also take up some room, such as in the FE/FF banks, which the IIgs used (or, if you wanted to make it able to emulate that, FD or something, with a "system bios" type thing, which would let you make some adjustments to how things work. d) since you are latching the ROMs, you could also latch the clock speed, so it runs at the original 1mhz when in "emulation mode", and at full speed otherwise. e) Also use the 65C816's added calls to have a way to "call" functionality in what would have to be a bank FE/FF area, to "turn on" the native mode, and bypass the emulation, from disc (might need this anyway, since the chip, I think, "starts" executing in 65C02 mode, I think.
But, basically, with some minor quibbles, you could probably still use an actual 65C816 chip, 1-2 ROMs, a modern 16mb SDRAM chip, and some sort of video chip, the clock logic and a few other things and "build" a working computer, which "might be" able to at least run old Apple II stuff, if you don't mind it not being able to use all the peripherals from the old machines.
Or, I am utterly nuts, and this simply wouldn't work. Sadly, not being a) rich, b) connected to someone/something that would let me experiment, or c) actually ever built anything more complex than a transistor tester kit (which didn't work, and I still haven't got around to 'debugging' to figure out why), I don't have the time, the skill, or the money, to try... Sigh...
But, seems like everyone making these things just goes with, "Oh, I can be clever and, instead of trying to semi-match the original chip, lets use a Raspberry PI!" But.. to me this misses the point, because watching the vids by Ben Eater, on how a freaking 8 bit machine actually works, in which he literally "builds one, from the 6502 up, one section at time, on bread boards" - that freaking impressed me, and I learned more in 3 days watching those vids that I *ever* knew, or could have learned running an emulation program on a Pi....
I laughed at the reveal of the internals with that tiny board, I knew all the weight was going to be the keyboard. Great video! :-)
Glad you liked it! 😃
looks like a giant metal plate on the keyboard which actually makes the keyboard pretty rigid but I think it's mainly for the weight.
The new keyboard layout also seems to have much larger printed letters. Awesome comparison study!
The early VIC-20s had a wider font on the keyboard; only the most recent VIC-20 version has the narrow font as used on a C64.
That was the original keyboard font for the Vic-20.
Great stuff! I own "The C64" which works fine in VIC-20 mode. I would actually prefer "The VIC-20", but they don't sell them in the USA.
I enjoy mine just fine, but usually just use real hardware
Yes, it looks like TheVIC20 was never easily available in the States. Physical distribution is hard! But hey, at least you got a TheC64, which is also great.
I ordered mine from Amazon UK and got it fairly quick and even with the expedited shipping, it didn't cost much more the the US MSRP.
@@67amiga I'm in the US. I really want one, but I tried looking and Amazon is saying it's "unavailable", even with the link Noel posted in the description.
I have both TheC64 and TheVIC20. My 20 is still boxed since it is essentially the same. I appreciate the ease of use and access to games to show off C64 in a general sense to my friends or fire up a quick game. I have a late model VIC and a PET style keyboard version on the way.
I bet someone here in the comments would happily buy TheVic20 from you if you put it up for sale (since you already have a TheC64, they're kind of the same thing). That's really cool you found a PET-style keyboard VIC-20. I haven't even seen one in real life.
@@NoelsRetroLab I'll be keeping it on display. It'll be nice to have the original and the Repro next to each other.
I used to have a "TheC64 Mini" a while back, and while of course that means no real keyboard, even just the fact it was emulated meant it felt less authentic. It pushed me to get a real C64 from eBay though, so I have to thank it for that. Using the real hardware just feels far more authentic than an amulator, even if it's housed in a perfect recreation shell.
But for the majority of people, I absolutely agree with you. These beauties are a perfect match. And I always love to tinker with things that run a Linux core!
It is! I skipped "The 64" in favour of a real C64, which was restored and a little bit modified for use in modern environment. But the colour scheme and the design of the case itself is really intriguing. Also the PETSCII keycaps are hilariously beautiful. I prefer this more than the overall look of "The 64". And the fact i can do the same with it as with "The 64" is why it will find its way in my collection ... one day or another.
Thank you for the vid! It was really nice to watch.
You're welcome. Glad you liked the vid and TheVic20 😃 It's a really cool device!
I will say they really went all out for this. Wow! I was looking at the C64. But, after seeing the keycaps, etc... I really like this one better.
Yes, it's pretty awesome!
Awesome video! I really enjoyed your style and how you've integrated general usage tips into the review. I also appreciate your perspective on emulation in general. Emulation is often viewed in a negative way, but I believe it is crucial to the preservation of our gaming history. There are many advantages emulation offers over OG hardware, and many of us would not have been able to experience these wonderful computers from our past without it. Great review my friend, thanks for uploading 😃👍🏻
Glad you enjoyed it!
Both the bread bin C64 and the VIC 20 came in different height cases. This is the same size as the taller ones of both designs.
Right! I didn't realize that at the time. I guess Commodore was just grabbing whatever they had on hand 😃
the Commander X16 will have nice manuals like the original Commodores
That'd be great! 👍
I'm looking forwards to the Commander "Chicken Lips" X16. I just hope they can keep the price down.
If it ever gets released.
The VIC20 God Damn near cured me of EVER touching a computer ever again. Bought it used from a friend, had an audio recorder "hard drive" and a junk tube portable TV "display." Some time later I bought a used bleeding edge desktop, DOS 3. something, small amber display, and the rest was all downhill from there. I had a 29MB hard drive been added, and I found the receipt inside the machine. It was more than 2 grand (US) for the hard drive and controller!!! I think I paid 150US for the thing, 8 1/4 floppies 'n all!!!
I managed to find a VIC-20 on eBay in the "PET keyboard" version (2-pin power socket), plus the older datasette model + a few extensions (3K, 16K). The machine is in "like new" condition. Originally, the computer was simply intended to join my collection. I've never owned a VIC before, and the hardware specs don't look impressive compared to the C64. Nevertheless... I connected the SD2IEC, ran a number of demos and games and... I'm shocked! What you can get out of this equipment is amazing! And besides... an original is still... an original. Computers from that time have a "soul", each one is unique and unfortunately, IMHO, even the best emulator does not have it... Thanks for the great review anyway!
One thing I would like to see them add support for or make an own machine out of is the Commodore 16 or Plus/4. Would be cool to have a "The C16" in a black breadbin case. Anyways, this looks like a very decent machine! If I didn't already have a VIC-20 and a C64, I would've been very tempted to buy one. I love that they went with the PET style keyboard! If a "The C16" would ever see the light of day, then I would most likely buy it since I don't have an original machine.
That's true. I wasn't thinking about that one, but I think it would be a really good fit inside the same case even.
A C16/Plus 4 mode would have been a nice addition. The C-16 shares the form factor. And the Commodore 16/Plus 4 probably isn't a well known enough product to warrant a full release model.
Incredible attention to detail on the case and keyboard. Emulation looks really good. Excellent well thought out video.
Awesome & comprehensive review! Thank you so much for the video! I’m on the fence about whether to pick this THE C64 “Vic 20 maxi version” or THE C64 “standard maxi”.
I have no nostalgia for either of them, as I grew up with an Apple II, but I love retro collecting so I want to know which of the two is a better package to buy, enjoy, & display. Thanks!
I realize most people buying these types of machines are mostly interested in gaming, but I would be very interested in their ability to run BBS software. Packages like Ivory, CNet, Image, etc... it would be very interesting to see.
Noel you just blew my mind running Doom on a VIC-20! I shall have to get hold of that. Excellent review and an enjoyable watch as always.
Haha, thank you! The link for VicDoom is in the description. It was just a matter of dropping it in and playing it (after the slight renaming).
Awesome Review. I own both ,THEC64 and THEVIC20 which I think are amazing.
The case on your real Vic 20 is i believe is the MK2 Slim version. I do have a couple of real Vic 20's here myself with the larger case and they are identical in size to THEVIC20. But going back to your review .. Excellent !! I literally agree with everything you said which is unusual for me :)
Thank you! Yes, those devices are fantastic! It's interesting to hear that the slim VIC20 is the later version. Somehow I figured that was the original, and they later switched to the larger version for the C64 breadbin.
I imported The VIC 20 because I couldn't get the C64. I really like it, and I can always switch between the C64 and VIC20 modes. The only thing I don't like, is that there's almost like.. a highlighter neon yellow sheen on the case under certain light.
What an excellent review 👍🏻 probably the best made review I have seen of "the VIC20". Good balance between information, facts, and general use.
As usual a joy to follow you channel, Thanks 😃
Wow, thank you so much! Comments like that make my day 😃
Boulder Dash is a solid classic!
I remember playing it on my IBM in my childhood.
Thanks man!
Fantastic review, Noel and i really enjoyed watching this video. I was bought the "TheC64 Maxi" for Christmas 2020 by my good lady wife and my son ( i've always been a Commodore fan since the late 80's ) and i love having the option of both the TheC64 and TheVic20 modes.
I'm going to pass on buying the next upcoming machine ( The A500 Mini ) and wait till the Maxi version is launched but i really enjoy emulation of retro computers on my desktop pc and on my Raspberry Pi ( mostly for Amiga emulation though ). Keep up the brilliant videos my friend :)
remember you can download updates for it from the retrogames website on a usb stick and formatted for FAT32 with MBR the updates will help with the input lag
Oh! I know they had added some games, but I didn't know it improved the input lag. Interesting. I'll definitely check it out. Thanks!
Great video. The Vic20 was my first computer and I’m going to look into getting one of these 😊…
The (original) VIC 20 (germany: VC-20) is still missing in my small Commodore collection. Thanks for the comparison which helps me to the decide whether to go for the original (and expensive) or the recreation :-)
The original isn't that expensive (I guess it gets a bit pricier if you want it with the original box), but then when you start counting memory upgrades, SD cartridges, and other add-ons, yes, it ends up being significantly more expensive.
I had that one - bought it myself for 400 DM at the time.
But like I said earlier, it got scrapped
It even had been upgraded to multi-ROM and switches to include and exclude RAM and make it R/O (like loadable ROM)
and a dad-self-made PSU to remove the Hot power converter from the 9V AC to 5V DC using a Canon D style connector instead...
Nice. Imagine what 80's Noel would have thought opening that up. :D
I would have been extremely disappointed because HDMI wasn't yet invented so I couldn't display it anywhere 🤣
Hi Noel! Very nice video! Showing the things under the hood, SW and HW, is really great. You maybe can't experiment that much with HW but even more with SW. I own THE C64. What I like about it?! I can connect it to my big LCD TV and play games in the living room, like I've done as a kid! 👍
That's a really great point that I didn't think about, because for me I want to use it in my "lab" and there I barely have any HDMI inputs (I had to hook it up to the PC monitor!). But I can see that being a big plus for a lot of people.
I got a Vic-20 in college. It was 1982. I decided to get a complete math degree in two semesters. I figured out a way to hook my tiny Vic-20 to the University Vac 4040(?) through my rotary phone. I finished a math degree in two semesters with a 3.95. What were you saying?
vic 20 was my very first computer I ever own
The user port probably could be easily emulated with the SoC GPIO mostly because the protocol is simple and a few protocols like serial it's natively supported by it, the main 2 problems are the emulator who would be tied to the SoC and the power level, 9V and more a than 100mA, which would fry the SoC
Voltage translation is easily done. 9V wouldn't be a problem.
@Mr Guru Big deal. Newer hardware can also save information about overvoltages and the like. Car audio amplifier manufacturers started putting micros that could do that in their products in the 90's.
@@misterhat5823 LOL! Car Audio manufacturers didn't make THEVIC20/THEC64. Without proper hardware level protection losers will just blow up the computer. If you want to play with circuits and electronics use a Pi because it was designed for learning.
@@johnbos4637 You armchair "engineers" are laughable. Muted.
Thank you Noel for another fabulous video, in depth and well presented as always. The VIC20 was something of an important place in the timeline. Still quirky but beyond doubt aimed at the consumer and marketed as such, the the TI99 as equally quirky with even more odd design decisions was just too expensive as were the more capable Atari 8bit machines. It's amazing what can be achieved but as the audience gets older for retro machines the emphasis will soon move entirely to the Nintendo generation. Sad for me when I stared my home computer journey at the end of the 70s, so many of the machines I remember will never find the way in to FPGA or emulation and some later ones too. Does an FPGA Lisa core exist? Being consumer machines and the age group doing all this fabulous work naturally the focus is on game preservation side of matters, Mister development is almost all console and arcade focused now when these lates 70s machines cannot be to complex.
You're welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed it. Interesting the comment about the 70s computers not being worked on as much. That's something I hadn't considered before. I imagine it's due to just MANY fewer people being exposed to them than the 80s one during the home computer explosion. That's too bad. Now it makes me want to look into them even more 😃
I am going to get a The C64. in a few weeks, I never had one I was a ZX Spectrum user, like the ZX the C64 had a keyboard that was only used by the machine. Emulation is the way to go now. Not many have displays that support old hardware.
My plan is to get my kids "The C64" and a load of old programming books (reprints most likely) and let them start about where I did. My oldest is 10 so he's at the perfect age to actually learn how a real computer works. I have an original C64, but with no peripherals it's a bit of a challenge for him to work with. I did get him started playing some old games with VICE and he seems to like it quite well. I'm hoping Apple will come out with a "Apple ][ Mini", but I'll probably just build one for him with a RPI.
The lack of user ports puts me off. I've got both the Harlequin and the Element ZX computers, They both use original Specrum ROMs and Z80 CPU and are 128K with stereo AY sound. The Harlequin fits inside either the rubber keyboard case or the Spectrum+. And the Element fits inside the Spectrum +2/+2A/+2B case. They also have the edge connector which is 100% compatible with 80's add-ons as well as tape in/out.
Apples and oranges, chalk and cheese. Boards liked the Harlequin are really great, but they are really aimed at a different market. Designing, testing and producing a new, custom PCB for an 8 bit machine with a genuine Z80 and hardware expansion ports is going to be more difficult and expensive. Not to mention, more limited and less flexible. But it's good to have choices, so you can buy what suits you best.
I can see that. It's quite different though. The Harlequin is just a re-implementation of the same computer (with some stuff added). That way it's closer to that C64 replica board I looked at a few videos ago. I would have been thrilled if they allowed some kind of serial communication over USB. That alone would have made it almost perfect for me.
@@NoelsRetroLab Yes, that's fair enough. You think they would have at least put an SD card in The VIC-20, so you can select what other games you want to install.
Oh nice it has C64 built in- I missed the run of the C64 maxi. I would miss the original keyboard but having said that I grew up with a C64C anyway so if I wanted an original experience would go with that. Cool it comes with a decent 🕹️
VIC-20 in some form is on my list of systems I want to pick up. All I have for Commodore right now is a Plus/4. Oddly, for such a notoriously unreliable system, that was sold as not powering up at all, it works *perfectly*. I'm not sure what the sellers issue was, I can speculate but I really don't know.
20:05 10th Frame... What a game!
I had it in 81 or 82... in Germany it was called VC-20... VolksComputer 20 maybe in relation to Volkswagen... I remember putting my alarm clock to 5o in the morning... because the tape deck was so slow and I had to leave at 7o... so I could played maybe three rounds of Asteroids before school... LOL³ I still have a Competition Pro joystick WITHOUT micro switches but silver blades. MUCH BETTER and with some skills it could always be returned into shortest switch ways... when the rubber degraded... just some tape on the metal cylinder would make it fit again... and a simple piece of flat wood to screw it on would save your hands in demanding games.
I got the C64 version, then almost immediately modded it to have a standard 9 pin joystick port and four little buttons to access the menus on the left side of the case. The supplied USB joystick is pretty good, but the (weird?) way I hold the stick means I have a tendency to catch those triangular shoulder buttons when I don't want to, and besides I really wanted to use my favourite vintage stick. I likely could have used an external USB adapter, but I used one of those arcade stick to USB boards on the inside to wire up the port and buttons - there's lots of free space in there after all!
Interesting. You actually added a 9-pin port to the case, or is it some kind of adapter to USB? You can also use the keys to navigate the menus, but they're not exactly very intuitive I found.
@@NoelsRetroLab I used a 'zero delay' arcade stick to USB adaptor board to add a 9 pin joystick port inside the case and soldered the USB side to the back of one of the three USB ports on the other side. I put a little rubber dust cap in that same USB port on the outside so I can't plug anything else into it by mistake (I preferred that to having the wire exit the case and loop around to plug into the USB socket from the outside - it looks neater and more 'authentic' to have it all internal).
@@Jimbaloidatron Very cool :) I think its awesome people modify stuff like this to help them re-live the original hardware.
There were multiple variations of VIC20 cases. Including different heights and keyboards
Great comparison and detailed look at The VIC-20 Noel. Really enjoyed this one.
Glad you enjoyed it! Cheers!
Brilliant video. Immediately subbed!
Great presentation. The Vic20 was my first computer. If I brought this machine, would I be able to use it as a lynux machine when I got bored of playing Vic20 games?
is me or there issue in the video compression? some glitch.
I haven't seen anything. Try reloading it and forcing it at 1080p for full quality.
I also see glitches
True, but the Commodore C16 should be added also, since it has the same "feeling".
My 2nd computer was a VIC-20, err the Original one, lol (First was a ZX-81)
Then a Commodore 64, Commodore 128 (I still have this) and then Amiga(s).
PC's these days, not a Windows user though. That OS is vile to me.
Great overview, Noel. It's a shame, THEC64 (Maxi) and THEVIC20 never sold in Canada and the US. I would have liked THEVIC20 in my collection.
Thank you! I keep seeing TheC64 fairly easily available in the US I think. TheVIC20 on the other hand seems to be impossible to get over there. That's a bummer.
Sadly,the emulators I have had a go with were not useful for programming my own work and saving my own games on.
So I went back to using my old machines.
If I wanted an emulator ......there are plenty on android and for pc.
The best innovational tech I ever found for my original machines was a scart output which allowed me to project my 1985 tech onto the wall of my house.
My neighbours freaked when they saw me playing David Braben's ELITE in my back garden with the kids on a summer evening.
>Looking forward to knocking up a silent fireworks display for nov5th.
I have this machine, I got it in january. I had the real C=64 when I was a kid, but it stopped working. I have the emulator Vice and I have copied a lot of games from old magazines. I wanted to buy the "C64 Maxi", but it was out of stock, so I got this one instead. I have to say that I'm very satisfied, the emulation is great and all my games work perfectly. Also, you can feel the experience of "using real hardware". The latest updates add some new games to the carousel and the option to swap the joystick ports. It's great to write programs in Vice and then test them in this machine. But the emulator has a big problem: the lack of the graphic symbols in the keyboard. Now you can write programs like in the 80s. The only two things that I don't like are the fact that this machine only have an hdmi port, I had to buy an adaptor in order to use the computer in the old Tv of my room. But this gives the image a little blur that makes it look as if I'm playing with the real computer, and I like it. The other one is that I find the joystick a bit stiff (I usually play with gamepads), and playing fast action games, like shooters, is uncomfortable. Anyway as I said, I like this computer, and I'm having a very good experience. Totally recommended if you had one of these when you were a kid.
Very good points! What do you mean the lack of graphic characters in the emulator? You can't type the graphics on the front of the keys??? (I didn't check that!)
@@NoelsRetroLab I mean that the Pc keyboard does not have these special symbols printed on it (the ones that you get by pressing Shift + a key). So, when you write a program with Vice, you need a reference to remember which keys to press to get this symbol printed on screen. With the "The Vic20/C64 Maxi", these problem is solved.
Great review. I never had a Commodore 64 (brother once had a Vic-20 though), but for me - I really wish someone would do this for the Amstrad CPC 6128. I'd love to get my hands on a "modern" 6128 that can do HD graphics, and load files off a USB drive - using a 6128 keyboard of course as most of the nostalgia is in the keyboard. It could be switchable between 464/6128. Proper retro machines off eBay are stupidly priced.
The Amstrad is much easier to interface with modern devices than the VIC20, I think since it outputs an RGB signal directly. But yes, it could be fun to have a similar treatment. While they're at it, they should add a Plus mode as well! 😃
Very informative video as always Noel. Thanks.
My pleasure!! Glad you enjoyed it.
Cool!! I had a C64, not the VIC20. So interesting. Doom showed the display in a little 8x8 area, requiring only 64 distinct characters to reprogram each frame. For those still pictures, on the other hand, it looks like it was taking advantage of the raster interrupts and quickly changing the color of something (background or character color) to draw out a "hires" picture with lots of colors that wouldn't normally be possible. However, the limited size of the picture on the screen in this case (I'm guessing) was the amount of RAM available, even with the expansion.
Very informative, thank you for it!!! :-) Michael
Glad it was helpful! Cheers.
Blitz was the 1st video game I ever played on a friends Vic20 in the early 80's!!
Haha, not the best introduction, but I'm sure it hooked you anyway 😃
@@NoelsRetroLab Certainly did! I got my Commodore 16 shorty afterwards. My friend (who always had more ££!) then got a Commodore 64 which blew me away, got one of those then an Amiga 500. Then a few years with Japanese consoles (PC Engine, Sega MegaDrive, Super Nintendo, Neo Geo, PC Engine GT), then it became my job to fix them!! (Which I LOVED!). We then moved onto selling PC's and component level repairs were a thing of the past, all board swaps etc). I still have a Super Monaco GP Airdrive arcade machine in my garage (which replaced Outrun, soooo wish I'd kept that one too but didn't have the funds or the room). I now love watching channels like this :)
ALL 6502-based devices are for me!
I'll take any 650X and Z80 any anything else. I enjoy them all 😃
I have the North American The C64 Mini and just love it. I don’t care what purists say, if it weren’t because of emulation, I wouldn’t experienced those great games ( try getting them on this side of the pond). Unfortunately, this version is locked on 60hz and doesn’t play VIC-20 stuff. I hope they fix that in the next update.
Is it possible to put an original C64 or Vic-20 Motherboard/Keyboard inside one of those cases? Obviously, cutting the space for the userport, etc.
I don't know. Someone else was just talking about that. Or maybe, without cutting anything, putting the keyboard of this one on an original VIC-20 with an adapter. I wonder if it's possible...
Vic 20 C64 From back in the eighties :)
WAITING for the Retrogames Amiga recreation... THAT I'll buy.
Me too! I'm trying not to let my imagination run wild, being able to switch between every Amiga model, toggle graphic modes, use extra-high resolutions, turn on virtual accelerators... Must... stop... thinking... that... 😃
Me too! _(and 97% of all my friends)_
I hope Retro Games will give us the option of a mini version, the Amiga is huge and a lot of people just want to play games, not program on it.
@@OM19_MO79 may be the build the Amiga 600 that's not too big ..
It'll be expensive as they'll have to pay for the Kickstart license.
That's an amazing video!!! Thank you!
The inside reminds me of the amstrad cpc 464 with the newer PCB that was practically half the size so had all that space unused inside.
Plenty space for a lithium ion battery 🔋
Good point. I didn't think much about it, but that leaves room for a LOT of possible expansions. Too bad that's going to be much harder to do with that kind of hardware though.
Great video Noel. And the 'proof of the pudding is in the eating'. There is no proof in the pudding. Agree, Vic 20 & C64 is just right. And a good keyboard means everything.
Got the 64 and loving it!
I have The C64 Mini and have been frustrated by its limitations, due to lack of a usable keyboard. With the announcement of The C64 Maxi, I have had high hopes for an improvement. However, the delays bringing it to the North American market (I am in Canada) have been far from acceptable. So at this point, I don't see any point in holding out for a product that I can duplicate on my PC just as easily.
From the "BASIC benchmark results", has anyone noticed how fast the BBC Micro was (with a 2MHz 6502) compared to others (of the same era) ?