Becoming an Officer in the 18-19th Century: The Purchase System in the British Army
Вставка
- Опубліковано 5 лип 2018
- We've all seen some iteration or other of the same old scene. Some bumbling aristocratic twit makes a terrible decision that ends in disaster, getting hundreds of his own men killed, before fleeing from well behind the front line while barely even understanding that he ever did anything wrong at all. And as he retreats, it's up to the NCOs and enlisted men to fix the mess that he created, muttering under their breath, "He paid for his commission!" the entire time.
It's a terribly common scene in so many films, games, and books, and yet it is so completely untrue. The Purchase System, by which men would pay to become officers in the British army until it was abolished in the late Victorian era, is a subject often referenced, and yet so little discussed! How exactly did it work? Why was it in place? And could men, really, just pay for their positions without any heed to experience, training, or skill? Given the great successes of the British army, surely the classic tale of the bumbling general can't be all true...
In this video, I go over precisely how the Paid Commission system worked in the British army, and what you- as an eager young Gentleman soldier- must do to become an officer in the historic British army!
If you'd like to read more on this subject (as I only touch the most basic information on this complicated system, in this video!) I'd recommend visiting these sites, which have further book recommendations:
web.archive.org/web/201605200...
englishhistoryauthors.blogspo...
If you are interested in supporting this channel and myself, I have a Patreon account which can be found here: / brandonf -
-
- -
- -
This video was made in support of The Native Oak. Learn more about our educational mission here:
www.nativeoak.org/
If you'd like to support the channel, please consider giving on Patreon,
/ brandonf
You can follow me on social media too!
/ thenativeoak
/ brandonfisichella
Explains why the Defense of Rorke's Drift, in which 11 Victoris Crosses were awarded, was such a successful battle against the attacking Zulu's. The commanding officer was from the Royal Engineers, Lieutenant John Chard, who DID NOT buy his commission. A most competent officer.
True, but the purchase system had been abolished some eight years prior to the battle.
Ps.
Bromhead purchased his commission before that. My point is invalid.
@@obi-wankenobi1233 based, you did research
But isn't this comment a contradiction to the video itself?
@@ianrastoski3346 The purchase system created better officers than what was before, but still resulted in less competent officers than what came after
It's all fun and games until the guy above you gets sniped (James Wolfe-style) and suddenly you're commanding the battle.
You could say they're a regular Sniper Wolfe
Lol
The British Navy and marines of the 19th century was the best in the world, but its army suck. They even got their ass kicked by stone age Zulu, despite outnumber the Zulu 2:1 (British Army 50000, Zulu army 20000) and was a well equipped 19th century most modernize army, while the Zulu was still in stone age equipped only with wooden shield and spear. (The Zulu used a divide and conquer technique, trick the British into splitting up into small groups and then pick them off, one by one, in huge number) Obviously, there was something very wrong with the standard of the British army during the 19th century. Find it hard to believe their army suck so much, considering how strong their navy and marine is.
@@juiweiyang1033 To be fair, those "stone age" Zulus were prime fighting force of Africa, when meeting Britons and only fraction of your mentioned "50 000" got involved in any sort of fighting.
Juiwei Yang Everything you said was wrong.
Awesome stuff my man. Thanks again for helping me with my American Revolutionary War video!
Griff
Thank you! And it was my pleasure. Couldn't have you go off trusting that book that described the redcoats as "tommies," now could I?
@@BrandonF My book that I owned, Mark Urban's Wellington's rifles, the troops were called Johnnies.
And yet the British were the most powerful military of the 19th century and created classic Liberalism and furthered the development of Democracy throughout the world
@@noahgibsonspeninsularwarsa1134 you have written a book?
@@yoyomodiji I mean the book that I own.
9:49 veteran reenactor dies in the shade.
Any reanactor knows the deadliest place in th battlefield is inthe shade of a good old tree.
Damn didn’t think about that that’s really clever.
Part 2!
- List of responsibilities
- Actual salaries and benefits
- Price of uniform and commision
Micahistory You're thinking of Issac Brock. That may not be me, but it is part where I get my name from.
Queenston Heights - perhaps Canada's greatest victory; British regulars and York militia fighting side by side expelling the invader. Only sad that he fell leading his men from the front and his replacement was less than satisfactory.
Doug Vimy Ridge:Am I a joke to you?
if you raised a regiment or bought a colonelcy you were actually paying the men.
Price of sword, pistols and field kit, price of horse, mess dues, one must keep up musent one?
Viscount is pronounced "vie-count," you Yankee spy!
Honestly, you can take the colonial out of the colonies, but you can't take the colonies out of the colonial...
Bumbling Brit hahaha and in Brit. English the rank of Ensign is pronounced with ens-EYE-n not en-sun. those upstart colonists we should have crushed then when we had the chance :D
TIL, I hadn't realised the extent to which their craven influence had got to me!
I also cringed a bit at the pronunciation of Marlborough.
Nearest I can render it is Moll-bruh
Gonville Bromhead is it really I didn't know that I knew it wasn't bur-row. I'm from the north so I don't know whether it's just accent related or what but I've always said marl-bruh like Mahler but with a bruh rather than moll-bruh
I think Mahl-bruh is fine; more a difference in accent than pronunciation. I would normally pronounce it half way between - closer to "Morl-bruh" - but using "r's" to denote British pronunciation to an American is fraught with difficulty!
I read a biography about Lord Cardigan which described his rapid advancement through the "purchase system". To gain rapid promotion he bribed senior officers to not take a promotion which would then go to the next in line. This was profitable to these officers who did not have the financial means to live as higher ranks were expected to and provided the income that they needed to live as officers of the "king" (or queen as the case may be), officers were not paid a living wage in Victorian times.
The issue was less the literal cost of living and more that officers were expected to live like a gentleman, which demanded lavish spending on equipment, clothing, drinks, food etc. and failure to do so would cause you to be seen as a boorish low class fool unfit for the uniform he was wearing. Think like the modern guy who has a great job but uses it to rent the most expensive car he can, gets the biggest house he can, dresses all in high end suits, and as a result is in massive debt living pay check to paycheck despite his apparently high salary. That was basically the entire British officer core.
In the year 1800 it was said you needed 500 pounds per year to live as a gentleman, and yet only maybe half of gentry earned that much and officers earned more like 150 up to 450 pounds per year for a colonel.
Before anyone asks, the background music is Handel's "Music for the Royal Fireworks"
Also, sorry that the images kind of give out halfway through in lieu of the more generic footage. It was taking me hours to find images that were appropriate, and I wanted to get this video out today! I've already been sitting on it too long. But in the end, I don't think the images at the start were terribly necessary to my demonstrating my points, they were just nice to match the content.
Also, for those who are interested in reading more about this subject, I will put some links in the description for you!
+Brandon F.
Yes, it depends on the spoken content, the footage is less important.
That's why you can just stand in front of the camera again ...
im no officer but im an officeass
no ramrod use? US heath and safety thing?
Brandon, Where can I find that photo of the British officer with the girl hugging his leg? I want to send it to my friend haha
Connor- It is from a book series called "Flashman" which is a satirical look at the idealistic Imperial Hero from the Victorian era.
Sounds like modern day promotion methods with more money involved. Speaking from personal experience
Whatever happened to promotions based on merit and ability?
@@Darqshadow Depending on the Nation, The french officers in the Napoleonic wars were promoted by merit rather then by a shilling.
@@Darqshadow I sure wish that was the way and it should be.
And yet France lost its empire
@@NoNo-qj3ef
such is the case when the world disaproves
Coming back to rewatch this, and it occurs to me that you've forgotten one vital thing in the commission game. Going on leave for half pay. Is you're regiment being sent to India or some other unpleasant foreign clime? Just go on half pay.
The twin institutions of the purchase system and half-pay is how we ended up with Lords Cardigan and Lucan at Balaclava, despite the fact they'd never spent any appreciable time with the various regiments they'd "served" with (indeed, before the Crimean War, the only time Cardigan had discharged his pistol in anger in 30 years as a cavalry officer was in an illegal duel). Cardigan had actually been removed from command of the 15th hussars in 1834 by order of William IV, after a 2 year stint as officer-in-command, only to somehow purchase the lieutenant colonelcy of the 11th Hussars in 1836 (this second OiC post gained only 12 years after he'd bought his first commission as cornet).
Yes, but it has to be said that Cardigan paid out an enormous sum to own that regiment and although a man of immense wealth, who could afford the most luxuriant lifestyle in safety at home, chose to head an army charging towards almost certain death unflinchingly. He was when needed, every inch the courageous leader.
Sounds like the British were the first to introduce micro-transactions.
I slipped the Commander of my ROTC detachment $50. BANG, 2LT!
Waltham1892 \./
Nice
It happens if your family has a bit of clout with the area.
That would explain My Lai.
@@RichWoods23 bit after my time but it would explain an M60 up to its fenders in mud.
Even at the time I left school in the mid 70's a number of British professions had an equivalent. Accountancy was one which had articles. Your parents paid for you to join an accountancy firm who trained and used you to carry out tasks.
This meant, of course, the working class were kept out as their parents could not afford the fees.
Not always. In 1980 I was approached by a firm who offered me a paid full time position to take the exam without an accountancy Degree. When i asked them why they were not interested in those about to graduate from the local uni, they rolled their eyes. I agree that this maybe rare, but they were impressed by my ability to spot mistakes in balance sheets and working out a way to re. generate capital assets on the books without spending a penny.. Right skill: right time = an exception.
A biit like internships now.
It still happens, it is just called unpaid internship. You get work experience, work full time so your parents need to support you, not exactly something for a working class fellow.
@@JM-mh1ppI just love how our society is still so corrupt and classist that they've retained these medieval ideas.
A truly majestic and superb video indeed sir, very informative as always, thank you so much Brandon!
When we talk about buying a commission as a subaltern in the army, we should remember that at that time to enter any skilled trade you (or rather your father) had to buy an apprenticeship, unless the master was your father or uncle. The price could be substantial, which served to keep the poor out and kept trades hereditary.
An apprentice might serve for seven years and would be part of his master's household, ranking between a son and a servant, and in earlier times was at risk of corporal punishment.
The part about how infantry and cavalry ranks were the only ones purchased reminds me of something I heard about in the American Civil War. Most the famous and victorious generals were noted to have graduated in the lower sports from West Point in the 1840s. The reason? At that time West Point assigned the higher rank (ie the smartest) graduating cadets to the engineers and artillery where brains matter. Lower level cadets were assigned to the infantry and cavalry who end up seeing a lot of combat action.
Hey I was the guy who recommended this on the patron discord a few months back! Keep up the good work, loving the Assassins Creed series.
Step 1: Get expelled from Rugby.
Step 2: Get your Guv'nor to buy you colours.
Step 3: Run, lie, letch, cheat, toady and cower your way to the top of a highly distinguished and decorated Military career.
MidnighWolf ua-cam.com/video/0LgUPJG9eOE/v-deo.html
what's does this refer to?
@@MrDeutschGerman the flashman chronicles
@@MrDeutschGerman worth reading...all of them
Flashy!
This was really interesting and the way you present all these historical things makes me smile, great video, interesting system.
One of the most interesting videos on UA-cam. Well researched and covering a topic nobody else seemingly bothered to.
One things not mentioned in the video is during war, sometimes people get killed, and sometimes people get injured/wounded. What would happen to those officers who had purchased their commissions who subsequently lost their leg, or perhaps an arm. Disabling, yes, but survivable none-the-less. What would happen to them, and perhaps more importantly, what would happen to their commission? Of course, if the Captain, and Company Commander of the Third Company of the 39th Regiment of Foot lost his leg, someone else would take over that company. But the person who had previously held THAT position, what would happen to HIS commission?
David Briggs
He would be paid out exactly as if he retired and might even get a pension. The State handled the money.
Brevet promotions are also a big aspect.
Usually the next senior officer would by him out, basically bribe him to leave then would purchase that promotion for himself.
"At LEAST 16"?!
Like that's some high standard? Do you REMEMBER being 16? Can you imagine LEADING PEOPLE THROUGH WAR at that age?
Jesus, I hadn't fully mastered making my own bed by 16.
Yeah I have no idea why he said that like it was a high bar to overcome...
Remember, that in the Royal Navy in the 18th and early 19th century the equivalent rank to ensign was midshipman; and one could enlist as a midshipman at 12 years old or younger.
People did grow up older back then but I do think 16 is a bit too young
Extremely informative!!!!! Really sheds light on assumptions that I had of the system as well.
Great research, analysis, and presentation!
It sounds like a method for the Army to have a retirement system without the Army actually paying for it.
Being an Officer itself was seen as an investment as you could network with other wealthy individuals while also making a name for yourself
Found this incredibly interesting! Would you do a video about the Royal Navy Ranks sometime in the future?
Again I find myself being schooled. Some I knew but an excellent presentation that puts the Officer Corp. in perspective. Well done. Must have taken an enormous amount of time to put this together. Thanks
Great topic for a video! Well done!
Is that a picture of Sir Harry Flashman in the thumbnail?!? Very well done, old boy!
PS: Thank you for dispelling the myths about purchasing offices that have become rampant today
It is indeed old Flashy! I have only read the first book so far, but it was absolutely brilliant. For a parody, it was really quite appropriate to the time period. One of these days I'll probably make a video about the series!
Definitely, do the video on old Flashie. It is a fun series, with a dash of real history.
Didn't Lincoln say: 'When all other trusts fail, turn to Flashman'?
Brandon F. Would love that!
My favorite Flashman book was "Flashman and the Redskins". The man certainly did get around, he was present at pretty much every military disaster in Victorian times! And he wasn't a total bounder, either.. he spoke many languages and was a man of many skills. And got his comeuppance many a time... Still have a lot more to read. George McDonald Fraser didn't just write fiction, either - he spent the last year of WWII in Burma ("Quartered safe out here") as a ranker and just post WWII as a lieutenant with the Gordon Highlanders in Egypt and Palestine (the McAuslan books). I found, sadly, that he'd passed away in 2008 - I was wanting there to be more books. (Patrick O'Brian's passed on as well.)
Could wealthy Englishmen actually raise their own regiment (or a battalion or a company) that would be officially recognized and deployed as a unit as part of the British Army -- say to fight in the War of Spanish Succession or in the Seven Years' War? If so, to what extent does the gentleman raising the unit have dibs on who commands that unit and who gets selected as the officers of the unit? What raised the question in my mind was a line early in Chap. 1 of "Barry Lyndon." Another suggestion (albeit in Spain) came in Mozart's "The Marriage of Figaro," Count Almaviva apparently has raised his own Spanish regiment and in order to get rid of his page, the pesky and amorous young lad, Cherubino, issues him a commission and orders him to join the Count's regiment in Seville. So can Cherubino just show up with a (the Spanish equivalent of 2d LT, or subaltern or ensign) commission in hand -- but utterly devoid of any military knowledge or training whatsoever -- and take over a platoon in the Count's regiment?
Welsh Rabbit except being shanghaied into Prussian service
@@Reprodestruxion if you're alluding to Redmond Barry (aka Barry Lyndon), that's a bit of an exception as Barry (1) had deserted from the British Army in time of war; (2) stolen a British officer's uniform, accoutrements, and horse; (3) impersonated a British officer while in the process of desertion; (4) was discovered to be a deserter by an allied officer of the Prussian army, and (5) given the option to join and serve as a private in the Prussian army in lieu of being handed over to the British with the certainty of being shot or hanged on the spot following a drum-head court-martial. That was Barry's (albeit Hobson's) choice. I don't think it's fair to say Barry was shanghaied into Prussian service.
Very nicely done. Thank you.
these are amazing insight thank you!
The problem was commissions being sold at over regulation price, and even when the Duke or York or General Hill as CinC tried to stamp out the practice. The classic example of the failures of the purchase system are the Earls of Cardigan and Lucan - the latter rising to command of a regiment (17th Lancers) thanks to his very deep pockets in only a few years. And then thanks to the way promotion worked for officers over Lt. Col. became a general without having fired a shot in anger!
Yes but he wore such nice sweaters
I never knew it was so complex. I saw it as a corrupt system. Much enjoyed this vid.
Thanks for the informative Video.
Awesome vid, well done mate
Ah! I am delighted to find these hot of the press, I managed to find this one at eight minutes after upload! Just now passing the intro, it seems interesting.
I hope the sentiment carried through the whole video!
As long as you can hope, I can assure you, it did! My only issue now is obtaining that aforementioned time traveling ability or device.
That's exactly how "recruiting for rank" worked. The King through the Horse Guards issued a commission OF COLONEL to a suitably wealthy and "noble" individual who committed to recruiting the officers, NCOs and men for a regiment. The new colonel and regimental commander would then sub-contract the raising of companies to friends and family, like the Cameron did in 1793. And before the Duke of York cracked down and set time in service limits between promotions to unqualified candidates, influential men were indeed buying commissions for boys as ensigns who would then gain seniority even before the reported to their regiment. You have mixed into one video the circumstances of purchasing a commission and promotion across over a period of over 200 years. You talk about the qualifications required of an officer in Victorian times or after the Duke of York's reforms in the early 19th century as if they were in place in 1688. The fact is that wealth and influence were more important than qualifications and performance, except where an officer demonstrated less than the expected standard of courage in battle or unacceptable social behavior. And you didn't mention and explain how a group of civilians became the managers of commissions for a number of regiments, where candidates would apply to purchase a commission or transfer between regiments. And you left out how former NCOs were basically limited in their ability to rise in the ranks due to the need for funds to purchase the next rank due to their lack of wealth, being basically confined to regimental staff positions like quartermaster and adjutant and would often be made unwelcome in the mess because of their social background. Also how about company commanders before the late 18th century having to buy not only the rank but also the weapons and equipment of the company. If the purchase system was so good in recruiting competent officers, why did men like Slade find their way to general officer ranks and commands? The purchase system had as its objective the restriction of commissions to the gentry and nobility as a way to control the Army as such men were naturally conservative and, being men of wealth who could live on the paltry pay of an officer, had more a vested interest in their social and political standing than in the army. It prevented the situation that arose in the Civil War, where men of lower social standing achieved high rank, were invested in the army and had no desire to protect and perpetuate the control of the wealthy and titled of the government. The end result was the Army became radicalized and overthrew both King and Parliament to establish the Commonwealth. This is what the purchase system and the Mutiny Act were supposed to prevent.
You did far better than I could have putting this into words.
cool.
I would be in favour of radicalisation if I weren’t culturally catholic yet atheist
+
Indeed. It was a simple way to allow sons coming from good family background (noble) to advance ahead of everyone else. The Duke of XXX cannot be a Captain forever.
Very well done, excellent presentation!
Very interesting. I learned something today. Thank you for that.
When I was in cadets my boss said to me “ you can have your Lance jack, for £50 quid, when I went home to tell my mum ( my brother was in the same unit as my bosses son in the real army.... so we was all close and that jazz) and that was the first time I found out about paying for rank was a actual thing
Even watching sharp as a kid it didn’t clock in my head......
So strange to think these days
Great research! Does anyone know the piece of music playing around 8:00 and onwards? Is it Händel?
Yep! "Music for the Royal Fireworks"
And thank you!
I love the videos Brandon. As a history junkie I must admit, I never delved into the rich history of the British army. Keep the videos coming.
good video and great info thanks
I have been waiting for a video of this sort to come out for a while and knew when I first started watching that eventually, it would turn up. Well, here it is. I myself am going to be a History Major in the near future. History has always peaked my interest and will continue to do so for a long while. I am mostly in the World War II to Vietnam Era in my studies but have dabbled in the Napoleonic and Colonial era, as it has always infatuated me, especially regarding the British.
In the beginning, when you brought up commissions (or having to pay for the rank), I immediately thought of the Duke of Wellington. He had bought quite a few of his officer ranks, by money alone and not skill, and this man was able to defeat Napoleon later at the Battle of Waterloo.
Regardless, this episode has brought a lot of needed insight into the process, and I thank you greatly for this video of quality.
I'm glad you enjoyed it! Thank you! And Godspeed in your degree!
Doesn't a History Major first have to be a History Captain first and then purchase the rank of History Major?
Well done sir. Consider my situation I am a retired Captain & Lt. Col. of the First Foot Guards, my commission 3500 Pounds. So Sold that and bought a commission in 10th Foot as Captain-Lieutenant command Colonel's company. Now this commission cost, since the 10th is a line regiment cost a mere 800 pounds. However this is considerable drop in pay. A point you did not make, so I will not berate you for this in my usual former RSM manner. The commision was also your wages per annum, so that said Myself as Capt. & Lt. Col, 1st Guards, Paul O'Shaughnessy Lt. Col 10th Foot and Lt. Col Garder 54th Foot are all paid 3500 pounds for our commissions, however this also what we got paid, being approximately 1 pound 10 shilling per day verses your 8 pence per day less off reconnings of tuppence per diem, leaving 6 pence per day.
Difference being I was just captain in the guards but a lt. col in the army. Because only a captain with dual rank of lt. col could command companies in the Guards. Dual rank dates back to James the II in order distinguish the Foot Guards as above the Line regiments. This lasted until the mid 19th century. I refer you sir to this lovely little volume that has great deal of information on this, The British Army in the American Revolution by Edward E. Curtis, ISBN 0-87928-122-7
Your Servant
etc. etc. etc.
W S Stone
Again great and informative video. As always. Greetings and respect from germany.
I love your videos!
Its interesting you point out how educational standards for artillery being rare, Ive known for a little while that the practice of passing educational standards and mathematics from the Venetian artillery dating back to the 14th century. I wonder how many other nations did similar, as far as I'm aware it was unique for its time.
1:30 North Korea and China’s relationship in a nutshell.
U getting better and better each video u do great job 🇬🇧
Your videos Sir, are an absolute pleasure to watch. May I be so bold as to suggest that you do a series on battle strategy?
What video editor do you use?
Sony Vegas Pro for the video, and audacity for my audio.
It was common to exchange commissions with offices in "Indian" regiments in peacetime. Professionals then did well in British indian regiments while Dandys stayed in London attending balls.
thank you for educating me. i was recently watching turn on netflix and when a british officer mentioned buying a Commission i knew what he was talking about
GRATE VIDEO THANKS !!!
Now do a video explaining junior enlisted and NCO promotions from the same eras.
Great video. One of the many strengths of the British regimental system is that brother officers will not tolerate an ungentlemanly officer or indeed an unsuccessful officer. the regiment is a family to be protected, a man who comes in and endangers the harmony of command is undesirable.
Biographies written by British soldiers mention time and again how easy it was to identify a good officer (not to be confused with 'popular' although the two often go hand in hand), and how much of a bonus this is to a regiment, and how much more willing the men are to follow him with gusto
Thanks dude....now I have to go back and reread some of the Flashman series to satisfy the cravings you inspired!
Thanks for the "Flasman" reference. I enjoyed the Fraiser books and still take delight in knowing that Flashman was the "school bully" in "Tom Brown's School Days."
Ok but we shouldn't forget that with those people Britain built an Empire.
Too right! 👍🇬🇧
Very useful! I understand the actual promotoion and entering the officers class. I first thought the 'purchase system' was corrupted but it wasn't. I plead you to make another video as a ranker's promotion. But, I learned that in the 18th to the 19th century, finance is very important unlike nowadays when career is important.
Huzzah for a great video 👍
Nice work
9:13 "Here's to a bloody war or a sickly season!"
A scrimmage at a border station
A canter down some dark defile
Two thousand pounds of education
Drops to a ten rupee jezail
The Crammer's boast, the Squadron's pride
Shot like a rabbit in a ride!
Does anyone know the exact arrangement of ‘The Girl I left Behind Me’ that plays during the channel sign off of this video? Thanks in advance 20:42
Any chance the soundtrack can be made into a playlist? I would love to have the sound to workout too.
The alternative title of this video should be, "How to become a rupert."
Remf. :p
Rupert is an actual term? I know it only from sir Terry Pratchett's Monstrous Regiment. Does it have anything to do with prince Ruprecht?
@@PobortzaPl No, its just a historical name popular with the English aristocracy around the end of the 19th century so when there was a rush of young, enthusiastic but naively ignorant young men becoming officers in 1914 many of them were called Rupert. ie Rupert Brook
@@voiceofraisin3778 Thanks for explaining that.
It’s also slang from squaddies for posh officers.
Yes, I would like to pay 2000 pounds for a flintlock pistol, and it's totally not a waste to throw the chance of becoming a Lieutenant in the Foot Guards.
Says " A blaggard , such as yourself " & shovvs a picture of Flashman . Totally appropriate & right on the nose . Great video & informative , TY again & keep up the good vvork . One request though, could you do a video on the Royal Artillery of that era ? The little I've goten to read made them out to be more of a Meritocracy vvhere real knovvlege & actual service played an important part of promotions & vvas the reason they vvere more effective @ the time than most other nations . TY again
Awesome stuff
You don't pronounce the s in Viscount. It's more like Vi-Count with the eye of I. Also it's Marl-bruh. Borough is almost always pronounced bruh unless you're off in the colonies.
Laurie screw you, pointdexter
The bruh’s of NYC.... I like it!
@@StopFear Who are you calling a poindexter? This channel has only one poindexter and I'm it!!!!!
U wat btuh
I don’t really know why they bothered with the educational requirements, while you could still buy your entry because odds are you had a good education if you could afford to buy rank.
The British Navy and marines of the 19th century was the best in the world, but its army suck. They even got their ass kicked by stone age Zulu, despite outnumber the Zulu 2:1 (British Army 50000, Zulu army 20000) and was a well equipped 19th century most modernize army, while the Zulu was still in stone age equipped only with wooden shield and spear. (The Zulu used a divide and conquer technique, trick the British into splitting up into small groups and then pick them off, one by one, in huge number) Obviously, there was something very wrong with the standard of the British army during the 19th century. Find it hard to believe their army suck so much, considering how strong their navy and marine is.
Modern military officers are all professional warriors of the highest standard, with at least 4 years of college education regarding to how to be a warrior, it is a hard course and after graduate still accompany a highly experience first sergeant to assist him, as technical adviser, as first sergeants are highly experienced warriors most with up to 10 years experience. (Four ranks of first sergeant in the US Marine, Staff Sergeant [Platoon first sergeant] Master Sergeant [Company first sergeant] Sergeant Major [Battalion, Regiment, Division first sergeant]) (Australia 3 rank of first Sergeant: Sergeant [Platoon first sergeant] Warrant Officer 2 [Company first sergeant] Warrant Officer 1 [Battalion, Regiment, Division first sergeant]) (Taiwan and Korean Army Senior Sergeant 1 [Platoon first sergeant] Senior Sergeant 2 [Company first sergeant] Senior Sergeant 3 [Battalion, Regiment and Division first sergeant]
(Ancient China 10 sergeant [Platoon first sergeant, squad sergeant] hundred sergeant [Company sergeant] thousand sergeant [battalion, regiment and division sergeant])
@@juiweiyang1033 Your knowledge of the Zulu wars seems to be based on a single battle (Islandlwana). In this battle the Zulus committed 20'000 warriors to the battle of which 10-15'000 engaged in the fighting. The British had 1'837 fighting men total.
The British actually won the Zulu Wars, resulting in the British annexation of the Zulu territories in July 1879. I don't know where you got your numbers from. The Zulus had 35'000 in their Army while the British had 15-16'000 in the 1st war and 25'000 in the second. Almost all of the casualties the British sustained in the wars was in the battle of Isandlwana.
Also worth mentioning that, at least from the end of the 18th century, there were always a fair number of officers who were commissioned from the ranks. Most of them were steady long service NCO's who were commissioned to act as Quartermasters, etc, but a outstanding, brave and bright young NCO could also get a free commission. Examples include Sgt Ewart of the Scot's Grey's commissioned for capturing a French Eagle at Waterloo. Colour Sgt. Bourne, in reality very young for his rank (the men called him 'the kid') offered a commission after Rorke's Drift in 1879, that he refused at the time, but who was later commissioned and who retired as a Lt. Col. There is also Hector MacDonald, the famous 'Fighting Mac' commissioned in the second Afghan War, who saved Kitchener's bacon at Omdurman, and, of course, Field Marshal Sir William Robertson who joined the British Army as a private trooper in the 16th Queen's Lancers in 1877, was commissioned in 1888 and eventually became Chief of the Imperial General Staff and a Field Marshal in WWI.
Very nice and well put across. And informative. NB the class requirement lasted some time longer. A great-uncle of mine who was an Oxford graduate obtained a 2nd lieutenant's commission in the First World War and sadly was killed. My grandfather, this man's eventual brother-in law and from a very similar milieu, went in from Wakefield Grammar School as an enlisted man, became a sergeant, and was wounded but survived. Afterwards he took the exams for the Indian Civil Service, quite a big career opening. He would say that out of 500 who passed in that year, only he and one other were NCOs (meaning the rest were officers, if they had served presumably).
I'm a little confused. So what would typically happens to a cashiered officers? We're they kicked out of the army? Turned into an enlisted man? locked permanently in their rank?
Also
How did the system work when an officer got past the regimental level?
I am assuming they were simply kicked out of the army. To be cashiered was simply to be dishonorably discharged. Especially since they were (usually) not NCOs or Rankers prior to their commission, they were kicked out. The reason for this, most likely is that they were too unqualified to be an officer, so why have them lead in an NCO position if they couldn't handle leading in an officer position. Next, they were most likely not rankers due to the sheer hatred and embarrassment of being discharged, and no one wants an angry ranker, as it drops the morale of the men in the regiment, not to mention the fights that could occur.
As for your last question, there was no paid system past Lieutenant Colonel. Every rank Colonel and above was earned by merit, skill, seniority, and by being noticed in the Chain of Command, whether it be through battles or whatever else.
I hope this helps.
awsomeness100000 thank you. One thing thought. When I said enlisted I meant more of a private than an NCO. In the age of press gangs and criminals being offered the rank of private instead of serving time I could see the army doing it.
When an officer was what we now call dishonorably discharged. The 'cash' he paid to buy his commission was forfeited to the army treasury so he was 'cashiered'. In those days due to the huge differences in social divides and how people were treated based on their wealth and birth there is no way an officer would be put among the enlisted men. The exception would be maybe if he had been 'raised from the ranks' by a senior officer meaning he was a private or nco and of low birth but due to exceptional performance he was given a full commission. As he was never a gentleman in the first place, he could be demoted back down where he came from to a rank fitting with his low social status.
When an officer was cashiered this was someone accompanied by a public disgracing ceremony in front of the other officers and soldiers. If this happened it would usually be at a large parade ground eg horse guards in London where his sword might be snapped or his medals or epaulettes ripped off his jacket and thrown to the ground
matthew shepherd thank you
Mitchell Line no worries :)
"Viscount" derives from the french original "(le) Vicomte (de)". There is no -s- within :)
how about a Pisscount
The first time I heard this system explained - thank you!
Good information
11:21 Is he dying or just trying to get comfy?
That was me. The answer is both, in a way. Lol
Would it be correct to have a 16 year old second LT(flag bearer) in Royal Marines during the revolutionary war
Which is what I do
As a side impression
Speaking from a royal marines perspective can't speak for the continental army.
I think it probably wouldn't be the case in the marines. A standard bearer would have been most likely an Ensign in the army or coronet in cavalry. As the royal marines were navy and most of the time at sea or doing some amphibious assaults, there would really be little need for waiving a large flag around especially on the deck of a ship where it would get in the way.
Also there is the issue of not having the purchase system in the navy for young gentlemen to buy commissions, but as being in the marines in not a technically a seafaring role in terms of the training that "sailing-officers" (for want of a better term) need the rules of how to gain a commission may be different.
Officers of the Royal Marine's didn't purchase commissions, though a Marine officer could purchase an Army commission at the next rank up in the Army if he so wished (and met the other criteria). For much of the 18th Century, the Marine's were looked down on by high society - officership neither demonstrating the intelligence required for a Navy commission nor the social standing required for the Army. As far as I am aware, the Royal Marines never carried colours, and they never had an Ensign rank. As to the age side, I cannot say. However, age in this period is rather more fudge-able than now
Gonville Bromhead thanks yes the the Royal Marines has a 2nd lt insted of an ensign they did carry colors during shore patrols. Thanks for the info though
the advantage of limiting the officer corps to the upper classes was that they were all educated, which is more than one could expect of lower class men. The ability to read was necessary in order to write and read orders and a million other tasks.
If I might add, first person reenactment footage makes for a far more entertaining background than still images, unless those images are particularly pertinent for demonstrating your point.
Watching a battle in the background while listening to someone talk about part (even a mostly unrelated part) of the historical context in which the battle took place is pretty much maximal fun.
That thumbnail persuaded me to become an officer ;)
Legogunpro2017 flashman was always the wrong man in the right place
Thumbnail is like a Swedish girl hugging the leg of a migrant.
Only if you get issued a trollop like Flash Harry's got. 🤢
I loved the Flashman reference... Good old Flashy... Fucking and fighting (running) throughout the Victorian Era!
Amazing Episode! Please turn on CC (Closed Captions) so I can read while listening as sometimes its hard for me to understand
Love that you use Flash Harry on your thumbnail
The whole purpose was to ensure that the army was in the hands of the 'right' people and not likely to engage in revolt. They were the class that were the establishment. The purchase was also a pension when sold on finishing service. Infantry (and to a lesser extent cavalry) commissions were granted to other ranks of proven performance or as a bribe to encourage bravery in a 'folorn hope'. Not that uncommon with losses in the likes of the Peninsula campaign. The real bar, especially in peacetime, was the cost of maintaining oneself as an officer.
To complicate it further there are also Yeomanry, Militia and Fencibles......
" A bloody battle or a sickly season!'
The purchase system allowed Wellington to reach the rank of general before he was 40. He was then young enough to fight hard campaigns in India and Spain.
This is a salient point, it's often said that it was the quality of its NCO's that counted for the fighting prowess of the British Army. Junior officers weren't that important, other than providing a pool to select senior officers from.
A most excellent explanation
“Don’t fret to much though, it’s no where near so difficult as the royal engineers exam.”
Peaked my interest here, and gives me a nice excuse to ask for a video explaining this and/or the history of the RE/REME. I think it could be an interesting video to see how the her(his) majestically technical and support forces have formed and developed, all though that could just be my bias as an engineer and military enthusiast.
I don’t know if asking here is adequate persuasion or if I should pester you on Patreon at a certain tier, but I think it would be a core concept in the development of monarchs forces (alongside maybe a video of a similar fashion pertaining to the royal artillery) that should easily merit some investigation and explanation.
Makes me glad I`m a Gunner
Henry Simmerson was Britain’s finest officer. God bless him!
Such officers like Sir Henry Simmerson, often died by friendly fire in the battle, and their superior officers would be happy!
Wonderful video, as per usual. I see that you have used Haendel's Music for the Royal Fireworks. This has somewhat piqued my interest: if you do not mind saying, what genre of music is your favourite and that you listen to on a regular basis?
What is the music used in the intro?
Jack Pratt: Milord, I would like to be an Officer in his majesty's army.
Lord Bowler: Fine, what rank do you want to be?
J. Pratt: General, Lord Bowler.
Lord Bowler: A fine ambition in a young man. How much money do you have?
J. Pratt: 100 Pounds Sterling.
Lord Bowler: Is that all?
J. Pratt: I did sell all of my family's valuables to raise the money.
Lord Bowler: Hmm, that sum is enough for an Ensign's commission at this time.
J. Pratt: Wonderful, how many soldiers do I have under my command?
Lord Bowler: You are under the command of a Captain of Foot, Senior Batman Pratt.
J. Pratt: I'm "a senior officer's servant," sir?
Lord Bowler: It is peacetime, and there are many officers looking for advancement.
J. Pratt: Well, it is better than "Private Pratt." Where am I posted, sir?
Lord Bowler: Upstairs, where Captain Poldark has his quarters. Get up double quick, Mr. Ross awaits!
Otokichi786 dunno when Poldark was set but at the turn of the 19th century even an Ensigns commission in a regiment of foot would have cost £400
Does that mean that the best "Private Pratt" could hope for was the rank of Corporal?;)
On "Capt. Ross Poldark," he had served during the American Revolution. (Series One of this BBC/PBS series was on TV in the 1970's, while the 2015 version walks the same ground with a different cast.) www.frockflicks.com/poldark-2015-vs-poldark-1975/
Otokichi786 don't know the exact price for Revolution but one source I read said £380 for Ensign in 1769 so I would imagine it would be around the same price 10 years later. But he wouldn't have to pay for a corporal position :). He could reach sergeant or sergeant major and through exception performance and leadership in the field he could be raised up from the ranks either by being given a field commission by a senior officer or (probably very rarely if at all in those days) by recommendation from a superior nco.
Wait, if this were the case, why wasn't this system available for the Navy? If it's a financial instrument and used almost as a pension, wouldn't sailors also need this?
MobiusCoin yes but being at sea is much more technical than being in the army in those days and so there was much for training involved. As an officer you would typically start as a midshipmam usually at around twelve or thirteen spend a few years training and learning then you would have a lieutenant's exam and then work your way up from there.
With the army a lot more can be book-learned and there's almost always somewhere to retreat to and support can reach you in a few days ride or march. When you are sailing especially in those days you were truly alone with little to no support and limited retreat options in battle. If your officers do not know how a ship works or how to sail you are doomed. There is much more on the job training needed.
But from the description in the video, it sounds like the purchase system did not leave you at all ill-equipped for the job. There seemed to still be tests and ways of making sure you were qualified for your rank. Does this mean that it was far less profitable to join the navy?
MobiusCoin there were tests and things in the army but not as technically difficult as the navy. In terms of profitability in the navy you wouldn't have had to spend lots to get anywhere but you wouldn't get the big pay out at the end
The Navy was only profitable to the extent that your ship took prizes. Prize money could make you quite well off, if lucky. Sinking the enemy was therefore quite an opportunity loss. Trafalgar was a major disappointment, as every captured ship sank in subsequent storms before Admiral Collingwood was able to sell any off at a friendly port.
The amount of Navigation, map making and gunnery involved in commanding a ship needed intense mathematical training as well as the ability to command a crew and fight a ship, its more akin to being in the Royal engineers while also being a fighter pilot, explorer and hollywood action hero at the same time. The list of skills you need just to live, eat and manage the ship in incredible, never mind take it to war. That why they had to start learning with constant testing from the age of 12 to find the ones even vaguely capable.
A brave but dim army officer can stand there and be an example to his men, a brave but dim naval officer will kill his entire crew before they can leave port.
what is that song at the start of the vid? Thanks
I love your channel. It is my sort of nerd