3 reasons you need a MID-LENGTH SURFBOARD
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- Опубліковано 16 січ 2022
- Surfboard designs and trends seem to run through fashion-style cycles in which the every day consumer, you and me, unknowingly find ourselves swept up.
What I’m enjoying about the last twelve months is that practicality has been a large driver behind the alternative crafts dominating the market at the moment; namely, people are switching out their high performance shortboards for puffed up twinnies or, the subject of this video, mid-length boards.
Today I want to explore 3 reasons Why Mid Lengths Have Taken Over the surfboard market and have a chat with some well known experts along the way.
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Awesome video 👍. Totally agree, going from a large board down to a smaller one, really improved my surfing when i started SUP surfing and then went back to my regular boards. Also how timely, just shaping a midlength!
I recently purchased a 7’1 Stacey Ohlson Twin and it is one of the most fun boards I’ve ever had in my 35 years of surfing! I also ride a 5’9 Lost Round Nose Fish and a 6’3 Stacey Lab Rat but I can’t get off the Ohlson Twin! It catches everything with ease and it’s super fast and surprisingly maneuverable! 🔥🤙🏽
Cool video, I love my mid-length GW (local shaper)! I agree with you that surfing a mid-length is a great tool for improving my surfing once I get back to my shortboard. I think it improves a number of ways, for one the wave count is much higher on my mid-length during summer surf, two it is a beast to turn and rip on but once the waves get better it really cleans up my turns on my shortboard and makes them effortless. Finally it improves my duck diving technique a 7'6" is a beast to duck dive so when I get back on my 6'4: it feels so much easier. Great video!
I've surfed since 2001 (51 now), and I've never been good at surfing, but it was easier when I was 20kg lighter 20 years ago.
I rode my motorbike to Cimaja, Java, 4x last year and got frustrated, so I booked a surf camp in Padang Padang, Bali for 15 days over Christmas.
Day 1, I got advice that instantly helped me.
I parked my ego and just listened to the instructors, so I started on a 9'0 soft top, but over the holiday, I moved to a 7'6 resin top.
I fly to Bali again on Monday. I'll see if I retained my improvements.
I love retro/egg boards cuz they paddle so easy, still are maneuverable and just look so stylish especially on big waves
Great vid Kale .. was in the market for a mid length board and the this hit the nail , right on the head 🤙🏽🤙🏽🏄🏽♂️
hey dude! this is amazing, keep going at it without sponsors, regular folks (like myself) need objective reviews from everyday surfers!
I have yet to own a brand new board, but I love the 2 that I have. My performance/everyday board is a 6'0'' Annesley Fun and I love how versatile it is on all waves I've ridden. Then I got the small wave board, which is a 5'8'' Modern Highline. While both boards offer plenty of volume (I live in Argentina and the waves are not as powerful as you'd find in the Pacific), the Annesley is an amazing board, super fun to ride, turns like a mofo, and the Highline has that sweet rounded square tail that helps a bunch when trying to catch weaker (or smaller) waves.
I'm still in the early stages of intermediate surfing and I live in the city (over 500km from the nearest beach) so I ride my surfskate everyday. I've owned quite a few of these babies and ended up building a nice little zombie with a wide deck, long enough for my stance (I'm 178cm tall), regular 70mm longboard wheels, Waterborne surf and rail adapters, Thunder trucks front truck (it's a 145mm skateboard truck) and a 180mm longboard truck in the back (so as to simulate the hold you get from having the fins on a surfboard).
I have a 6”10 soul evo 2 I bought last summer and it’s been a joy to ride every time I’ve had it
I have a 6'8 Chilli Mid Strength and love it. Ridden it from shin high waves to double overhead. Great board. It's also a very easy transition from riding shorter boards. I think that transition is key for enjoyment. I find it feels familiar but just longer. I suspect that this is not the case with all mid lengths. I think a Mid Length shootout would be interesting.
Got a 6'10 and it's the bomb. Knee high to overhead it's my go to. Surf's like a short board and paddles almost as well as a more traditional midlength. Hardly any reason to use my longboards anymore and I'll step down to 5'10 epoxy HS Plunder if I really want to short board.
What fins are you ride?
@@davidkaiser8739 quad Endorfins
@@terenceingram7786 thx a lot!!
Whats yr weight on the 6’8? Im tryin to decide 6’8 or 6’10
Really great video - and agree with all the others who are interested in a Mid-length review. I saw Devon Howards CI-mids on a video and bought one of the first ones off the rack - two years ago and absolutely loved it - it seems to be at its best in bigger stuff over groveller days and I think it has improved my surfing. Before that i had a Takayuki Scorpion for 10years+ and it was a great way to transition from long to shorter boards. It has a huge wide nose so it is less likely to be a go to on hollow waves - I would really like to see what you think of those boards versus the Seaside and beyond. Thanks for all your great videos - my 10yr old son can’t get enough of them
I have the FireWire Seaside & Beyond 7’2” and I love it!
I love my Volume Shapes Mid length (VUI) 7'4 - Great summer board and plenty of fun
I have a 7'5" Lovelace V.Bowls (single fin, hull shaped board) I purchased because I knew it was a quality board (got an incredible deal too) even though it doesn't fit my style of surfing. I've had it a couple of years now, and its forced me to be more fluid in my surfing. Before I purchased this board, I had a 7'6" Machado Seaside and Beyond (double concave quad) that is the perfect fit to my style of surfing, I love surfing rail to rail. I broke this board after owning it for only a month (LFT doesn't belong in Hawaii). With the V.Bowls, I can take off real early or super deep and late, speed through sections most boards can't make, and best of all, paddle hard and make it outside for what's a cleanup set for everyone else. All in all, the best board to surf is the one you have with you!
This is funny. I was just talking with my friend about getting a 'mid length'. I only have short boards. I don't long board at all but as i get older I'm wanting to try out a mid length. Perfect video
Definitely do a mid-length review. I was slagged off my my friends for buying a Seaside and beyond when it was first launched, but many of them are turning to the darkside now. Great boards to have in the quiver. So many on the market now. A comparison test would be very worthwhile.
2023
Awesomeness awesomeness awesomeness!!! It would be nice to see you do a comparison between different types of mid-length surfboard; high performance, versus your twin fin, versus a thruster mid-length surfboard and so on... Thanks!!!
Convinced I usually only surf river waves but I'm going to get a mid-length just cause now. Thanks Kale!
I agree with you, I think the flow is better. At 40 years of age, I've accepted that I don't surf like a pro surfer the does vertical or airs surfing, I know my limit of surfing size wise as well..
Please do more mid length
I’m also 40 and getting back into surfing after a few years break. I can barely paddle my old 6’0 now, I picked myself up a Mid length, and off i went.
@@rahawk69 58 and getting back in the water so going with 6'8" minimum. I still want to be able to duck dive though.
@@goofyfoot2001 7 months later my paddle power is getting back up there, i guess for both paddling and duckdiving it’s about balancing your body weight and strength to the volume and length of the board. I’m 75kg (165lb?), I’m riding boards from 6’0 - 6’8 length, and volume between 38L - 47L. I’ve found the volume to weight ratio really important. Get out there! 🤙
Nice analysis.I have a 6'6",7'4" and a 9'.Mid length works.
Perfect timing. I was just thinking of shaping my own midlength soon. I'm super pumped to shape my first board, and step down from my 8ft foamie!
Always learn something from your videos Kale. Cheers.
Glad to hear it!
Ehi Kale great video!! Quick question: Is it better to go with just two fins with mid lenghts when waves are smaller? Thank you so much! Love your contents and the surfskate program!! Ciaoooo from Italy
I have a 6’10 Lost Smooth Operator. I have it for 4 years now. Completely love it. At 57 years old this my short board. I started surfing single fins in the 70s. It feels like similar DNA to those board only better
Riding a libtech pickup sticks 7’6 and love it
I have the mid strength and the faded 2.0 what would be a good twinnie to compliment this progression?
Really interesting short video thanks. My sons just bought a mid length 6'10" Pukas and loves it, ride a 8''6" due to my lesser skill and middle age!
What's your son's height/weight and maybe age? I'm 45 and struggling a little on smaller days with a 6'10" single fin, but no problem on a 7'4" or my 8'6" log. I might be too old for the smaller boards
What twinfin set up do you use riding a Mid Strenght Chilli? Thx
Dude!!! Those dolphins just chillin' I'd get so distracted watching and enjoyinh nature. Where did you film that? Someday I'll go visit 🤙🏽
South Australia has the most interactive dolphins in the world
@@KalesBroccoli whenever I'm ready for one of those trips I'll keep it in mind. Meanwhile practicing over in America (México) until I can hit the outback 🤙🏽
Thanks for the awesome content 🙌🏼
i like them in kinda bigger mellow waves more of like a roll in style wave sometimes i forget and try take off super late it never goes well
6.6 x 21 x 2 5/8, handmade by my local shaper. Greatest addition to my quiver yet.
I also surf a shortboard (5.8 x 27L) and a real fat groveler (5.10 x 38L) and I'm loving every board I have, based on the conditions I get. Mediterranean sea: very sketchy :D
I'm studying 8 days a week so I really need that extra foam under my chest to catch more waves and have fun. But the midlength is blowing my mind. Good for small waves, AMAZING in bigger waves.
Plenty good times with my 7'6" Flat Tracker 2.0.
Nice video - like always :) i have Lost PJ HP 5.10 33L and of course softboard from Decathlon Olaian 6.0 40L perfect for fun on small wave
One day I have hope You come to Poland :) ua-cam.com/video/--7O_P2Yr-g/v-deo.html
I have the 7'0 chilli midstrength. I am an intermediate on the beginner side. Such a great board! The amount of waves I catch compared to my 6'1 lost v3 rocket is insane. My paddle fitness is getting better because I enjoy going out and catching loads of waves anywhere from 1ft to 2 ft overhead
Do you feel guilty by taking waves off of other surfers by using a paddling enhancer instead of a apropiate surfboard for your ability? Because this is where it all comes down to. PURE SELFISHNESS.
@@rasmuszaurins7233 man you are soooooo wrong! Like, really wrong.
@@FranciscoJavier246 Why?
@@rasmuszaurins7233 because it is not a competition. End of discussion.
@@rasmuszaurins7233 If you're a good enough surfer it shouldn't matter
I been surfing a 6'0 twinny for the last year and the mrs bought me a 7'6 2+1 for the small summer days and I love it but I went out on the weekend on my twinny again and felt super unstable and just couldn't get the groove back..
what fin box is best for the chilli mid strength
Please include the Harley Ingleby Mid 6 if you can on a review. They are hard to find but there are some great and very limites reviews on UA-cam. As always great review, thanks for sharing
i think i have the madness just been hard finding the right one. Im thinking of Lost crowd killer around 6'8 to 6'10 in the pin tail,
been surfing a big fish 7’2 when is higher than waist height and it goes really well. but when i surf it in smaller days it’s kinda hard to flow, i thought maybe if i get something smaller around the 6’6 it’d be more manoeuvrable in the smaller days and still give me enough confidence for the bigger days? any opinions? help
Which mid do you recommend that rides somewhat like a performance thruster?
Have you tried the JS Big Baron? Would you recomend?
Thank you for this great video. I am up to buy a used mid-length surfboard (Epoxy, 7ft.6), needle nose with thinner rails (according to the description of the seller and the picture). I am transitioning from a foamboard (wavestorm 8ft). Do you think this new board will help me improve my skills? or it will be hard to paddle since it's needle nose? I'm 5.7 ft tall and weigh 155lb. Thank you for your help. Also it's 21" wide.
hi kale I have a question does a mid length differ with ur size and weight or is there a sort of height a mid legth sould be if thats makes sense
I love my lost 7,2 smooth operator!
Kale, I noticed your surfing on the 5'4" in this video was smoother/ more patient/ more stylish (less bouncy) than in other clips, having just spent time on the the mid-lengths prior (I presume) - supporting your theory that mid-lengths improve your surfing on shorter boards. Keep exploring this!
Kale can you do a review of the new chilli, middy, preferably the 6:2.
I have a 7’6” global industries creative army huevo. Great board
how would you ride a typical 7'0 egg? twin or single fin?
I just added my first-ever mid-length board, and I'm having a little trouble getting used to the added length and thickness. As I've gotten older I've added weight and I took several years off so by default I went with a longer/higher volume board. I went with the Lost Party Crasher at 7'0" and 50 Liters... by far the longest and most buoyant board I've ever ridden. Ive only started riding it towards the end of the summer, but I'm still getting used to it. I am also a little rusty so I'm sure the skills will come back. Where I have the most trouble is knowing how far up or back I need to be when paddling, and finding the best center of gravity for the various types of maneuvers. This board seems so long (like what I imagined a long board would feel like) and I'm sure trial and error will fix it. Any ideas for me? Thanks.
Eric
I’m an intermediate surfer and I wanna buy a middy for me, I’m no shore if I get de CI Mid or Chilli Middy, which one do you recommended for someone like me who is able to navigate the wave competently and wanna start to do some turns and basic manoeuvres, I’m riding atm another mid 7.4 with 48 volume
yep got a 6-8 egg single fin very fun board
huge thanks mann..
Can I use this to replace step-up?
As a beginner/intermediate, I'm trying to get as many waves as possible. I find that a smaller board requires much more skills and magnifies my mistakes. As soon as Australia opens up, I'd love to come to one of your surf camps. Thanks for posting all these videos!
Happy New Year. Found your channel last year, great content. I Currently have a 7'6 59L foamy, bought a 6'6 hypto but too unfit to paddle around so im thinking 7'6 mid length. I was thinking mid strength because it seems to be the only one with a 5 fin option. Any dramas using thruster set up vs the twin you used?
Twin for loose fun in smaller stuff maybe and thruster for bigger stuff more stability
It's a good idea to work in with your local shaper, they'll shape you a board for you skill level/goals and it's keeping the money all local to
Hey Kale! Thanks for this video. I’ve got a 7’ 8” Torq ModFun. Would you treat something like that more as a long board, or a mid-length?
I'm surfing a 8" Soft for 2 years now. I'm considering the Torq V+ 7.8 or 7.4. How is your experience from the board so far? what was your previous board?
who is the other person he mentions at 1:22 after Torren Martyn? I can't understand and the name doesn't come up on the screen
Preaching to the converted..7'1👌..'Mickey February style 🤙🏾'
Thanks Kale! Please do a mid-length board test. 🙏🏽
2023 🤙🏽
Hey kale how r u? I’m really digging CI mid as I’ve heard it’s an all round board and I’m toying between getting a 7.0 or 6.10. Wdyt? I’m 178cm (5ft10) and 75kg. I’ve been surfing for 2 years and wouldn’t consider myself too advance but I was surfing a 6.8 hybrid fish 45L before and can catch waves and go down the line.
So for smaller conditions I have something like a pyzel crisis mid 8.0 and a mini mal 8.0 so I think smaller conditions I have covered. But I wanted a backup board as I cracked the 6.8 right before a surf trip and didn’t get it fixed in time. The CI Mid 6.10 is 42L and 7.0 is 44L so it’s a bit of a gamble. I think following the rough rule of 12 inches bigger than your height I am going to try getting the 6.10. But with mid length they said it’s better to have more liters so better to go with the 7. Lemme know if you have further thoughts.
What fins are riding in this clip?
Can u do a video comparing dhd interceptor vs one bad egg vs mid crisis vs M23
Awesome intro!
There is something about the midlength look/style. They have a nice flow
Curious, are you running the FCS Power Twins in both? Great video 🤙🏼
Yep!
Sam Egan (father to Luke) and MR would be two of the most expert surfboard designer/shapers in the world. You should try asking them about what works how. They have been shaping for longer than most surfers have been alive.
went from longboard to 7'2 midlength, but im 6'2 myself.
bought a fish 6'1 and doing much better on it.
midlength for tall people feels akward, my experience on it!
Hi kales u should try the mid6 by Harley ingleby . congrats for your Channel Aloha from Spain
Personally a midsize board allows you to flow with the wave a little better as you go to a shorter board then things get fast I think it's a great combination I grew up riding a six one swallowtail 19 1/2 wide which allowed me to ride big waves also.
I have the chilli mid 6.6 and its awesome! 🇮🇱🎼🖤🤙
Hey Kale, do you have any tips for your mid length if you are struggling to duck dive it. I weight about 70kg and have a 40L 6'10.
Best advice I was given is dip your sting hand rail at about a 10 degree angle. This helps the board edge cut through the water surface tension and really does sink it in. Really helped me on a similar volume board
Did you ride the green board as a tri or a twin?
Is there a length/volume “rule of thumb” for mid lengths? In other words, if I typically ride thrusters 6’2”-6’4” and 36-38 liters, what should I be riding in a mid length? Would I go up about a foot to 7’2”-74” and 50-52 liters? (I’m assuming that since you mentioned your Chilli is 6’6” and if I’m not mistaken your thrusters are in the 5’6”ish range). Thanks!
No hard rules just general shape and length
What fin setup were you using on that Chilli? Not sure whether to order the thruster or 5 fin to run a quad
Twin
I went 5 fin with mine. It's far more versatile. Didn't think I'd like the quad setup at all but I haven't switched them out since using them. I'm 5'8", 85kg, 45yo and surfing for 33 years. Went with stock 6'10" and using the CF5 Large set (5fin set) from Captain Fin Co. No complaints other than perhaps switching to thruster on choppier days where the quads slide a little on heavy turns..
Any chance you’d post the boards model name so we can check them out the brands’ websites. I found the chili but the Albums, not sure which models they are.
Album Townsend 7’0
Album Lightbender 5’4
Hi mate, nice video. Can you share your hat brand?
O&E
I wish i made my 7'6 look that smooth when I'm surfing it 😂
Heard the Hatchos Twin Pin Mid is popping off. Can't remember who told me.
Never seen a surfboard snapped in person before. Watched 3 midlengths snapped clean in half on bar beach newcastle on a 7foot day within 1 hour! It was awesome.
Just got one none of the above but looks 👌
Nice video has ever,
If you wanna make a Mid length video don't forget to put the One Bad Egg from Mark Phipps Euroglass on the start line, it's an absolute banger
Hi! I just got my obe in 6’8 39lt and as is my first mid length I’m a bit lose about the fins set up.. Could you recommend me a 2+1 fins set. Cheers!
Hi @@felipep2666 ! If you want and go surf 2+1 setup you can use a 8' fcs2 connect combined to two lateral FCS2 performer from a classic truster you can dm me on Instagram @charlesparavisini 🤙🏻
Why do you wat a board that is good in big surf and ultra small at the same time (but not middle surf)? It has never happened to me that I think it is going to be huge and it is completely flat.
First, also great video man hope to see more in future.👍
Hi Kale, love your stuff, here some different oppinion since I made completely different experiences. 55Y, 190cm 90kg, surfing since 1996 (aside Kiteing, Windsurfing, Foiling now) and basically I am also one of the target groups with lacking routine and deminishing physical strength. And I always have been, since fokus of Shapers always have been the 75kg, fit up to 35y surfer. We would end up with up 7.something models that were actualy blown up shortboards.
Back in 2002 I was a year from Chili to NZ where I got shaped on the way a 7´´-1, 21, 2.5 that resembles a lot to that what is hyped now as Mid Lentgh. Wide point a tad forward, fuller outline in the nose and a bit more pulled in rounded pintail. For a one board quiver back then it was perfect. I surfed rather quality waves of big varity like small Playa del Carmen to double overhead Ollies in Costa Rica.
Although, and that kind of haunted me over the following years, in average beachies on vacations from home, it never fellt, that it would fit propper into the wave and was way to stiff in its manouveribility.
It felt like forcing an gravel bike through a pump or thight single trail or my 190cm powder board riding in mongols. And then in good waves then I always felt it would hold me back. from what I wanted to do.
Something I still recognise is, that all the tasty videos you see about that boards are made in long, nice walled up waves.
With a lot of testing I ended up going into the reverse direction: 6x23x3 with Chimes like you find the the Walden Models but thinner rails. An absolute revelation. Works nice from hip high to 6ft lumpy Gwithian where I anyway only ride. Especially in suboptimal Beachies it fitted much better and enabled tighter turnes. Wave catching is sublime.
I also had a chance to compare back to back a Hypto Krypto 6-6 I own, too, with a 7ft Aloha Fun division. In terms of wave catching the Aloha was not significatly better than the Hypto.
In weak waves both suck, but as soon its getting better the Hypto is so much more fun that its a no brainer. To have a significant advantage, quiver wise, I guessI have to get up to 7-6 or more. With that much of board I rather go for a long board.
For the standard 75kg surfer, the step up from 5-8 to 7, is like for me up to a 9ft performance longboard. Naturally for him the 7 ft are much better than 9, but for me the gains are too little.
Maybe the midlength of some shapers are now more refined. But still...I have the feeling that its more selling old wine in new bottles.
😆 what!?
I wanna surf with Dolphins, where is that first shot? which coast of Aus will do xx
Southoz
I’ve got a 6’10 Spearhead from Ben Webb. 2+1 setup and absolutely froth it.
I am looking for more volume on my next board, my paddling isnt the same anymore. My only concern is losing the ability to duck dive, what would you say would be to much volume to duck dive?
Some people can do it on really big ones, but my 6'8 is a bit of a struggle and the 7'6 (52L) is hopeless for me.
I have a 6'8" Mark Phipps one bad egg, it's 38L and duck dives pretty easy. I usually surf boards around 5'8" 32L and find the egg easy to turn and it paddles like a dream, catches so many waves. Great fun from knee high to overhead.
I have the 7'0 chilli midstrength which is 45.5L. I can duck dive it but on days when it is overhead and bigger I do get pushed back sometimes if I don't get the technique just right. I'm 93kg and 6'1 as well
I usually surf shortboards at 29-30 litres I can duck dive a 6'8" at 38 litres. You need to shuffle forward a bit but its doable. I'm 70 kgs
Hey Ash, my 2 bob’s worth from a long time surfer guy 59+1 & dodgy shoulder get some volume. I ride a Torq mod fun 7 6 52l & absolute cracker from 1-2ft to double overhead. Can’t duck dive it too well but you can punch thru the waves. It handles 3-4ft bells so good enough for me. Good luck, Phil
iv had a 7 bobsled for about 5 years
how do you go back out with mid lengths? turtle roll as well?
Watch my video from 12 months ago How To Paddle Out The Back On Bigger Boards
@@KalesBroccoli thanks man! saw it!
@@KalesBroccoli what size is your mid strength?
Hey kale, it’s crazy how easy your gliding into these. I’m not sure how big you are, but I cannot get my 7 4” tolhurst into a wave unless I’m so far forward that I lose the ability to use the tail on the take off.
The fish looks like it’s always bogging down and you have to muscle the turns, the Chili looked the cleanest.
why dont you run a 2 + 1 set up kale? that seems to be the most popular mid set up to me.
I like twin better :)
I can't put my finger on it but I feel that you look way better on the album. It somehow looks like your rail gets hung up on the chilli. But here's the big disclaimer... I'm the student you're the teacher😳😅
No, your argument is valid wether you are teacher or not. When teachers are allways right that is argumentation by authority. And that is ALLWAYS a POOR argument. In REAL SCIENCE it is dismist automaticly. After all i agree with you, worst looks on longest board, best on shorter board, but still boring, because of lack of speed and spark. May be there is some fin configuration that solved this problem, i guess around 1980/81.
6'6 Big daddy shortboard haha 👌
Do you think the midlength trend right now is a direct result of people going to small too soon?
I love my Modern 6'8". At 54L you can catch little 2 footers on up. It's light but not too light and quite stable at 22 7/8" wide. I was on the fence between a Firewire Sweet Potato, but I find the Helium boards a bit too light. It was also 1/2 the price of the Sweet Potato, which sealed the deal for me.
I also have a 7'10" from Formula Fun for small days. At 78L, you can pretty much catch bathtub ripples, but it's easy to put on rail and pull a really hard bottom turn on a bigger wave.
mid length test!
I have a Firewire Seaside and Beyond 7', it is a great board. I'm more of an intermediate, the funny thing about it is that I can tic tac that board better than my 5'11" Lost Puddle Jumper, maybe it is because the Seaside and Beyond is narrower. Yes, would love to see a midlength test.
Would love to see Kale test the Seaside and Beyond! A semi local (to me in) UA-camr, Yuri (Skipper Surf review) rides a lot of mid lengths in his videos. He raves about the SSAB. I bought a 6'9 7S Superfish 4 which I love but the Chili looks amazing and the SSAB just calls out to me. Wondering if should get it longer than my 7S? If I get it lol.
That pulled in and thinner out tail is money
@@JiahaoLin What size your riding?
@@richscoza4362 I'm an not expert but I think it will depend on your weight, I got the 7'0 because I weight 185bl (84K) and I wanted to still be able to duck dive it.
@@alfonsosaballett6676 gotcha. I’m 165 and would still get a 7.0 or bigger I think.
Kales! I have a modern love child can you review it?
My favorite is My Bic 7 ft egg
Was the Chilli ridden as a twin?