@@Testingthisname Yes, tragically. But I like that, it shows that even cool and wise old people can have their biases and not break free from life-long indoctrination. I still adore her.
After the joining, Loghain accepted from the start that he'd be the target of everyone's vitriol - but still took the opportunity to see Fereldan saved. You get that from his first dialogue with you, hoping to come to some sort of resolution so you could focus on the task rather than each others throats. He always refers to you as the commanding officer and does what he's told without question, all while taking shit from practically everyone. It just makes me appreciate his character further. Yes, his crimes are many, but if you keep him alive, he becomes their commander officer (in Orlais), and the one trying to save them from the artificial calling despite all he'd done against them in Origins. Fiercely loyal to them, and very friendly to the Hero of Fereldan once the land is safe from the Blight. In short, the joining was to be his atonement and he's fulfilling it admirably. Not sure if we'll ever get to see him in DA:4 or other upcoming DA games but I have absolutely no regrets about keeping Loghain alive in my main playthroughs.
Not only that BUTin Awakening he brings you a shield and comes to say goodbye to his friend before going to Orlais in Vigil's keep. Moreover, in Dragon age Inquisition he even calls HoF "friend" when during chat with Inquisitor in Western approach he says "There is a fortress called Adamant. Good thing my friend gave me some maps" - refering to HoF gifting him Map of the Anderfels. Loghain did what he did for the good of Fereldan. Everything, no mater how cruel, drastic or forceful was done to protect its independence and save his people in the best way he saw possible. When HoF showed that they want the same thing BUT he is stronger - he allowed HoF to have a go at it and when HoF succeds and is respectful to him, Anora and people that supported him like Ser Cauthrien AND Fereldan people, he actually builds a respecting friendship with HoF despite it all because HoF succeded at what he always wanted to do in the first place. Honestly, When I was during the Dragon age Inquisition and I had to sacrifice Hawke or Loghain - I was like "Inquisitor you are so damn lucky that you have the mark on your hand and you might be useful because Hawke and Loghain are both twice, no thrice, scratch that...ten times the man you are".
A shame you can't bring Alistair and Loghain to Ostagar. I did a recent playthrough where I put Alistair on the throne and spared Loghain. The landsmeet scene was so well written with them and made me feel so much which is amazing considering it's just a video game. It like physically hurt me to see Alistair's rage towards myself. I think sparing Loghain was worth it though. He does good things after and I understand why he did what he did.
Alistair's main problem is that he seems to be physically incapable of seeing Being a Grey Warden as anything but the highest of honors, and I think it might actually break his brain to comprehend that not only is it _frequently_ used as a punishment, but that "as a punishment" is how _DUNCAN_ was Recruited. He murdered the husband-to-be of the Commander of the Grey while trying to rob them, and she Conscripted him hoping the Joining would kill him.
bjchit Loghain thought the army was doomed anyway. He was not going to let his men go down for Cailan's errors. That is not to say he did not go waaaaay off the reservation there though. And with alot of the other stuff he did. But hey I am forgiving.
Indeed, I felt sorry for all that he have been through, but he had let bitterness control what he did. For someone who claims to love Ferelden, he is too willing to destroy peace and the people in it.
First time I played this I thought that Loghain was just a power-hungry traitor it didn't like his son-in-law. But he did have a logical point that the army that they has stood no chance against the Darkspawn horde. A retreat was necessary.
I killed Loghain when I found him and married Alastair, his entire legacy will die with him and it will be one that is remembered for betrayal and ruin This is his payment to all the men he’s killed, all the lives he’s destroyed, all the woman he’s widowed, all the worlds he’s torn apart This is what he must pay for his crimes and when that’s done his soul may leave the world and go to the side of the maker or wonder aimlessly into the fade At that point... I don’t care for what he does after
I got to say, I respect Loghain a bit more now. He seriously loves his daughter and is rightfully pissed when he finds out about Cailan's cheating. Plus his love of dogs is actually kind of endearing.
@@boopagm8275 Oh, he definitely was. Anora says as much. Whether he was cheating with Celene is another matter entirely. Though Loghain was largely correct about the "Peace" that would buy, considering Celene intended to use Ferelden forces to reinforce the border with Nevarra. Right about that, Right about the battle being lost, wrong about using the Warden's as fall guys, super wrong for poisoning Eamon, starting a civil war and selling Ferelden citizens into slavery.
How Strange that Wynne is hopefully asking Loghain "and what of peace?" had Cailan wedded to Celene, as if her raggedy old bones forgot the "Peace" that was an Orlaisian Occupation...
@@yochaiwyss3843 Even Inquisition did I think. The first main quest in Winter palace where Inquisitor totally outplays everyone in Orlais shows you how powerlusty Orlais is and how they wanted Fereldan back. The king got manipulated because he was a bafoon. Loghain saw a chance to get rid of him before situation gets worse and took it. Sometimes the biggest heroes wear black and do things nobody has the guts to do.
Ideally, they should have retreated from Ostagar once they learned the estimated size of the darkspawn horde, but Cailan wanted a heroic story like the one from the legends. Even if Loghain hadn't betrayed Cailan and the Grey Wardens, the size of the horde meant that thousands would have had to die just to save the king from the front lines. And that's assuming Loghain's forces would've been enough considering this was only the first wave. Was Ostagar a strategic strong point? Yes. Was it the only option? No. And without an opportunity to betray his king, Loghain would've just had to deal with the arrival of the Orlesians no matter how much he resented it. But Cailan insisted on having his childhood fantasy.
Since nobody comment about Wynne and Alistair flirt i must said that i didn’t expect that 😰 i laught so bad, i saw this two like grandmother and Grandson, not like lovers, jeez 🤣🤣🤣 Oh and also Alistair reminding Wynne about the age she has 😅
I could NEVER let Loghain be a Grey Warden!!! It isn't the matter of Alistar, I just can't stand him!!! Loghain, Branka and Kolgrim are the 3 people I NEVER side with on ANY story, ANY origin, no matter what "prizes" they offer!!! I'd sooner rather kill them, be done with it and never speak of them again!!!
Емил Владимиров It's not that, when I play games like this, I'm pretty unforgiving towards people who screw with me over and over again! Loghain is one of these people!! It's the same way with Fable 3, I can buy every home in Albion and tax its' people to death, I can kill my brother and make evil choices in all the quest up to ruling but I can NEVER EVER agree with Reaver in anything he desires or requests!!! I don't care it's not evil, I don't care if it costs me money, the day I agree with anything Reaver wants will be the day the Nightcrawler bows before me begs me forgiveness for what happened at Endgame!!!
***** It's not just withdrawing the army at Ostagar, his excuse for saving the life of the soldiers can be bought and understand, but it is what he did afterward that get me all riled up. He put himself up as the 'King', letting Rendon Howe torture and kill other people, he himself had a hand in raising taxes and slaughtering bannorns for saying that he was wrong, and not giving him provisions. He denied Alistair's legitimacy, even though he knew for certain that Alistair is Maric's son. In the name of 'quelling the darkspawn', he imposed harsh rules on those who would gainsay him, willing to poison Arl Eamon, and using his own daughter as a pawn in his game. He pledge himself to Ferelden, but he's destroying it, and he thinks that no one but himself can save the land. He turned a blind eye to what he's doing. Those actions cannot be forgiven, especially after his own sacrifices to save Ferelden from Orlais. To me, he deserved to be a hero, and it is disrespectful to the hero that he was if his latest actions was to be excused. He saved Ferelden, and that he deserved better than people excusing him for 'Oh, read the book and you'll understand him more". That's just a lame excuse =/ I love him, but he had become something that he himself wouldn't want to see; it's better to end it.
@@RougeJr His hatred for Orlais was justified and in Inquisition he was proven right to be scared of Orlais. You cannot always take the high road otherwise your good intentions will lead so high you will actually reach Hell.
@@Owliare "...to eradicate the darkspawn." You mean to ensure his paranoia against the Orlesian can be satisfied. He let the southern marches to be taken by the darkspawns. He made an attempt to kill a lord of Ferelden to secure his ascension to the throne. He succeeded on that in Highever (Arl Howe was his right hand, don't be naive). He let the Circle to be broken, hampering the strength of the Mages and the Templars both. He's a paranoid fallen hero. I commend Bioware on making a character so easy to hate like him. The last time I hate a character was from a Neverwinter Nights module.
budakbaong siah Your exactly right and that’s what I love about him. He’s misguided and dirty but like he said, he’s willing to do anything for Ferelden and its people.
Do you know what would've happened, if Loghain had not quit the field like that? And Cailin was onto something with Orlais and suggested that they wait for Empress Celenes army to march. What do you think would've happened, had they waited? I'm not telling you how to think or feel, I just believe that those are points worth considering.
i read it, i feel for him, and i get his love for his own nation. but i still hate him, because nothing could justify what he did because he let his own hatred of Orlais control him. Loghain was so obsessed with that hatred that he let it control him. fun fact: not everyone who read Stolen Throne will come to love him or lose their hatred of Loghain.
![Party banter [Witch Hunt] | Dragon Age: Origins](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/iLNupQi8crQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![Party banter [Witch Hunt] | Dragon Age: Origins](/img/tr.png)
![Return to the Circle [party comments] | Dragon Age: Origins](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/m6-kbYkEzq8/mqdefault.jpg)
![Party comments [Jaws of Hakkon DLC] | Dragon Age: Inquisition](/img/n.gif)
I just love how Wynne gives Loghain never-ending amounts of shit in this one. Oh Wynne I miss you; you're the cool old lady I aspire to be one day.
@@Testingthisname Yes, tragically. But I like that, it shows that even cool and wise old people can have their biases and not break free from life-long indoctrination. I still adore her.
Wynne never stops badgering Loghain, but he almost invariably refers to her as "Madame."
"That is a sexy sword. I must have it!" - Zevran
After the joining, Loghain accepted from the start that he'd be the target of everyone's vitriol - but still took the opportunity to see Fereldan saved. You get that from his first dialogue with you, hoping to come to some sort of resolution so you could focus on the task rather than each others throats. He always refers to you as the commanding officer and does what he's told without question, all while taking shit from practically everyone.
It just makes me appreciate his character further. Yes, his crimes are many, but if you keep him alive, he becomes their commander officer (in Orlais), and the one trying to save them from the artificial calling despite all he'd done against them in Origins. Fiercely loyal to them, and very friendly to the Hero of Fereldan once the land is safe from the Blight.
In short, the joining was to be his atonement and he's fulfilling it admirably. Not sure if we'll ever get to see him in DA:4 or other upcoming DA games but I have absolutely no regrets about keeping Loghain alive in my main playthroughs.
Not only that BUTin Awakening he brings you a shield and comes to say goodbye to his friend before going to Orlais in Vigil's keep. Moreover, in Dragon age Inquisition he even calls HoF "friend" when during chat with Inquisitor in Western approach he says "There is a fortress called Adamant. Good thing my friend gave me some maps" - refering to HoF gifting him Map of the Anderfels.
Loghain did what he did for the good of Fereldan. Everything, no mater how cruel, drastic or forceful was done to protect its independence and save his people in the best way he saw possible. When HoF showed that they want the same thing BUT he is stronger - he allowed HoF to have a go at it and when HoF succeds and is respectful to him, Anora and people that supported him like Ser Cauthrien AND Fereldan people, he actually builds a respecting friendship with HoF despite it all because HoF succeded at what he always wanted to do in the first place.
Honestly, When I was during the Dragon age Inquisition and I had to sacrifice Hawke or Loghain - I was like "Inquisitor you are so damn lucky that you have the mark on your hand and you might be useful because Hawke and Loghain are both twice, no thrice, scratch that...ten times the man you are".
Honestly I wish around the end of the game we could get armour like that cuz holy shit they’re gorgeous.
It's modded. The grey wardens of fereldan I think.
A shame you can't bring Alistair and Loghain to Ostagar. I did a recent playthrough where I put Alistair on the throne and spared Loghain.
The landsmeet scene was so well written with them and made me feel so much which is amazing considering it's just a video game. It like physically hurt me to see Alistair's rage towards myself. I think sparing Loghain was worth it though.
He does good things after and I understand why he did what he did.
Alistair's main problem is that he seems to be physically incapable of seeing Being a Grey Warden as anything but the highest of honors, and I think it might actually break his brain to comprehend that not only is it _frequently_ used as a punishment, but that "as a punishment" is how _DUNCAN_ was Recruited. He murdered the husband-to-be of the Commander of the Grey while trying to rob them, and she Conscripted him hoping the Joining would kill him.
i feel old
Or, instead they hate Loghain because they think that dooming an entire army to slaughter just to get at one guy is something only crazy despots do.
bjchit Loghain thought the army was doomed anyway. He was not going to let his men go down for Cailan's errors.
That is not to say he did not go waaaaay off the reservation there though. And with alot of the other stuff he did. But hey I am forgiving.
Valmy77 Well he certainly doomed them when he decided not to flank them when he easily had the chance.
It never was about the King, The Darkspown or the Gray Wardens, Loghain was paranoid with Orlais.
@@Valmy77 if I were loghain I'd have decked Cailain, taken emergency command and gotten everyone the fuck outta there
Therisius he would've but Cailen was loved by commoners and most nobles so he couldn't just take over so easily
Who are the badass in this screenshot?
It’s Dana’s created characters. City/Dalish Elf, Noble Human, Human Mage.
I've read the book, so I know why he did what he did, but it doesn't make me like him any more.
Indeed, I felt sorry for all that he have been through, but he had let bitterness control what he did. For someone who claims to love Ferelden, he is too willing to destroy peace and the people in it.
WickedSoulXD He does love Ferelden. He loves his country with all his heart, but his hatred for Orlais is greater.
There's a book?
@@artorius4809 Yeah. The Stolen Throne. About the rebellion against Orlais. Definitely worth a read if you love the series :)
@@benmackennall2419 Sweet, anything about the couslands? They're my favorite parents out of the while dragon age series
First time I played this I thought that Loghain was just a power-hungry traitor it didn't like his son-in-law. But he did have a logical point that the army that they has stood no chance against the Darkspawn horde. A retreat was necessary.
Someone else's war, someone else's reasons. Damn.
0:44
Oh, poor Wynne =( you have no idea how true that is.
I killed Loghain when I found him and married Alastair, his entire legacy will die with him and it will be one that is remembered for betrayal and ruin
This is his payment to all the men he’s killed, all the lives he’s destroyed, all the woman he’s widowed, all the worlds he’s torn apart
This is what he must pay for his crimes and when that’s done his soul may leave the world and go to the side of the maker or wonder aimlessly into the fade
At that point... I don’t care for what he does after
I got to say, I respect Loghain a bit more now. He seriously loves his daughter and is rightfully pissed when he finds out about Cailan's cheating. Plus his love of dogs is actually kind of endearing.
IF he was cheating
@@boopagm8275 Oh, he definitely was. Anora says as much.
Whether he was cheating with Celene is another matter entirely. Though Loghain was largely correct about the "Peace" that would buy, considering Celene intended to use Ferelden forces to reinforce the border with Nevarra.
Right about that, Right about the battle being lost, wrong about using the Warden's as fall guys, super wrong for poisoning Eamon, starting a civil war and selling Ferelden citizens into slavery.
How Strange that Wynne is hopefully asking Loghain "and what of peace?" had Cailan wedded to Celene, as if her raggedy old bones forgot the "Peace" that was an Orlaisian Occupation...
It's a lot to assume that a few friendly words would suddenly lead to marrige.
@@orhblin If I remember correctly, David Gaider had actually confirmed it to be so.
@@yochaiwyss3843 Even Inquisition did I think. The first main quest in Winter palace where Inquisitor totally outplays everyone in Orlais shows you how powerlusty Orlais is and how they wanted Fereldan back. The king got manipulated because he was a bafoon. Loghain saw a chance to get rid of him before situation gets worse and took it. Sometimes the biggest heroes wear black and do things nobody has the guts to do.
gotta say I love you Wynne- but Loghain was right about a lot of stuff here at this point she's just disagreeing to disagree
Ideally, they should have retreated from Ostagar once they learned the estimated size of the darkspawn horde, but Cailan wanted a heroic story like the one from the legends. Even if Loghain hadn't betrayed Cailan and the Grey Wardens, the size of the horde meant that thousands would have had to die just to save the king from the front lines. And that's assuming Loghain's forces would've been enough considering this was only the first wave. Was Ostagar a strategic strong point? Yes. Was it the only option? No. And without an opportunity to betray his king, Loghain would've just had to deal with the arrival of the Orlesians no matter how much he resented it. But Cailan insisted on having his childhood fantasy.
The Wardens.
And suddenly I HATE Logain even more. How uncanny.
Since nobody comment about Wynne and Alistair flirt i must said that i didn’t expect that 😰 i laught so bad, i saw this two like grandmother and Grandson, not like lovers, jeez 🤣🤣🤣
Oh and also Alistair reminding Wynne about the age she has 😅
haha same for me, I just recently played this DLC for the first time (and romanced Alistair) and hearing that flirt was like..... EXCUUUSE ME?! 😂
Loghain still slavery
I could NEVER let Loghain be a Grey Warden!!! It isn't the matter of Alistar, I just can't stand him!!! Loghain, Branka and Kolgrim are the 3 people I NEVER side with on ANY story, ANY origin, no matter what "prizes" they offer!!! I'd sooner rather kill them, be done with it and never speak of them again!!!
Why, do you have an allergy to prudent choices (Kolgrim not included of course)?
Емил Владимиров It's not that, when I play games like this, I'm pretty unforgiving towards people who screw with me over and over again! Loghain is one of these people!! It's the same way with Fable 3, I can buy every home in Albion and tax its' people to death, I can kill my brother and make evil choices in all the quest up to ruling but I can NEVER EVER agree with Reaver in anything he desires or requests!!! I don't care it's not evil, I don't care if it costs me money, the day I agree with anything Reaver wants will be the day the Nightcrawler bows before me begs me forgiveness for what happened at Endgame!!!
*****
Reading the novels might give people more sympathy and understand Loghain more, but it does not excused what he did. It never could.
*****
It's not just withdrawing the army at Ostagar, his excuse for saving the life of the soldiers can be bought and understand, but it is what he did afterward that get me all riled up. He put himself up as the 'King', letting Rendon Howe torture and kill other people, he himself had a hand in raising taxes and slaughtering bannorns for saying that he was wrong, and not giving him provisions. He denied Alistair's legitimacy, even though he knew for certain that Alistair is Maric's son. In the name of 'quelling the darkspawn', he imposed harsh rules on those who would gainsay him, willing to poison Arl Eamon, and using his own daughter as a pawn in his game. He pledge himself to Ferelden, but he's destroying it, and he thinks that no one but himself can save the land. He turned a blind eye to what he's doing. Those actions cannot be forgiven, especially after his own sacrifices to save Ferelden from Orlais. To me, he deserved to be a hero, and it is disrespectful to the hero that he was if his latest actions was to be excused. He saved Ferelden, and that he deserved better than people excusing him for 'Oh, read the book and you'll understand him more". That's just a lame excuse =/ I love him, but he had become something that he himself wouldn't want to see; it's better to end it.
***** Long argument short, tolerating his current actions is an affront to his previous heroic deeds. =x
I personally liked Loghains character. Very wise and logical man. He had what it takes to get the job done.
Except for the part where almost everything he did ended in disaster.
You wouldn't say that if he were a woman.
His hatred for orlai controlled him
I can respect someone who does whatever he can to get the job done.
@@RougeJr His hatred for Orlais was justified and in Inquisition he was proven right to be scared of Orlais. You cannot always take the high road otherwise your good intentions will lead so high you will actually reach Hell.
This is why I always let Alistair take Loghain's head I can't stand him
Loghain was guilty and wanted to be king, plain and simple.
Zach no he didnt. He loves Ferelden. Literally. He loves it to the point of obsession but his hatred for Orlais truly overshadows everything
He’s a patriot who isn’t afraid to get his dirty. He didn’t care to be king but he sure as shit loves his country.
Berzerk Llama
I know and they were dick moves but he was willing to do whatever it took to eradicate the darkspawn. It’s awful but I can understand.
@@Owliare
"...to eradicate the darkspawn."
You mean to ensure his paranoia against the Orlesian can be satisfied. He let the southern marches to be taken by the darkspawns. He made an attempt to kill a lord of Ferelden to secure his ascension to the throne. He succeeded on that in Highever (Arl Howe was his right hand, don't be naive). He let the Circle to be broken, hampering the strength of the Mages and the Templars both. He's a paranoid fallen hero.
I commend Bioware on making a character so easy to hate like him. The last time I hate a character was from a Neverwinter Nights module.
budakbaong siah
Your exactly right and that’s what I love about him. He’s misguided and dirty but like he said, he’s willing to do anything for Ferelden and its people.
When I saw Loghain the first time arguing with Cailan, I knew he was right. Always choose Loghain
Do you know what would've happened, if Loghain had not quit the field like that? And Cailin was onto something with Orlais and suggested that they wait for Empress Celenes army to march. What do you think would've happened, had they waited?
I'm not telling you how to think or feel, I just believe that those are points worth considering.
@@kidoftheforce He was right to not trust Orley. And he was right to retreat. He did nothing wrong.
@@waltonsimons8037 You did not play Return to Ostagar I suppose.
@@kidoftheforce I did.
@@waltonsimons8037 Then you must've gathered up the letters between Cailan and Celene?
fun fact: anybody that hates loghain never read Stolen Throne and/or/therefore doesnt understand him at all
Loghain still slavery
He was a fool in the end.
i read it, i feel for him, and i get his love for his own nation. but i still hate him, because nothing could justify what he did because he let his own hatred of Orlais control him. Loghain was so obsessed with that hatred that he let it control him. fun fact: not everyone who read Stolen Throne will come to love him or lose their hatred of Loghain.
I've read it and i get it but i refuse to let the sale of people into slavery be forgiven