you are so logical-which makes the video so easy to watch. I like how you segmented the arguments and reminded the audience in the end about the final take-away points!
This may be the first comment I've ever gotten about the organizational style of one of my videos and I am HERE for it!! :) Thanks so much for watching and for your sweet words!!!
I have no idea why I’m 6 videos deep into your content. I’ve worked in PR and marketing for about 8 years 😂. For whatever reason, this is fascinating and so are you.
Man I'm really glad software isn't like this. 8 hours a day max, more than that and you quickly lose productivity. Bill 150-200/hr for high quality work, and have a social life!
@@AngelaVorpahl software isn't like that anymore when the economic is now in a crunch. Big tech laying off 10k-20k software engineers that use to enjoy free food, amenities, 40 work hours now find themselves jobless.... :/ Pendulum has swung back hard.
I read this as "How well do layers work?" As I am from Wisconsin my first thought was that they work really well and it's best to dress in layers when it's really cold out.
Haha don't make us jealous like thaaaaat! It's so true and so sad how little time off U.S. workers in general *(and lawyers in particular) take compared to their EU counterparts. And it's shown in surveys over and over that lawyers would trade a cut in compensation for more time off and more flexible working hours. I think those changes are happening in the U.S. legal industry, but very very slowly. I hope they advance much further in our lifetime!
Working in a law firm, people ask me all the time when I’m going to become a lawyer. Honestly, since I started 4 years ago, I would never want to be a lawyer. All of them are awesome, hardworking and brilliant, but even when on vacation, they’re working, most of them stay well past closing, and come in on one weekend day, if not both. I love my job and working for them, but I also love my personal and family life!
kydil I actually want to do the same. I like the idea of working remotely, though I haven’t worked as a legal assistant. I have a family member who’s a lawyer.
I don't have kids personally, but from what I've seen having kids and being a full-time professional is always a difficult balance. That being said, it's also absolutely doable and there are tons of female lawyers out their killing it as professionals and as moms so you'll be in good company :)
Awesome vid! I'm in my first year in public accounting fresh out of college and it's going! Fast paced and busy! What I like about it is that even tho right now its tax season and were putting in an avg of 60+hrs a week -- its seasonal. Only 4 months! Yea it kinda sucks during, but May thru August we get out early Friday's (3pm) and no Saturdays!
Ooh no weekends is SO key!! Getting that time to unplug so that you can come back at it again is critical. Sounds like you're working a ton but learning like crazy, and that's what it's all about! Keep it up!! :)
Hi! My average work day was 10:15am to 9:15pm, so I would break for dinner around 7:30pm-8:30pm, and if I was still in the office working than the firm allowed us to bill our dinner to the law firm. My colleagues who had families or kids would usually go home around 7:30pm to have dinner with their family and put their kids to bed, and then log back onto their laptops for 2-3 hours at night.
Follow up question: Are law firms really that strict about timesheet/billable hours? I am currently an engineer and we have billable hours where we can charge our times to project/client, but it's VERY flexible. I mostly work from home anyway but when I go to office, I always get off at 4pm. (when I work from home, I log into company laptop at 7am and log of at 4pm). 7am to 4pm always which is total of 9hours (8billable + 1 lunch break). When I go into office, it doesn't really matter if I chat with my colleagues for a few minutes, or play a ping pong for half an hour, hack even if I take 1.5 hour lunch break, I still get off at 4pm. I see you even separate the "bathroom break" and sure technically it's not billable working hours, but do you really have to be that strict about it? I mean your supervisor doesn't monitor you and check if you went to bathroom / have a quick coffee break etc right? or does he? (I am not specifically asking your supervisor per say, I am asking the law firms in general and their culture). I am currently an engineer, but already took LSAT and got a solid score. Thinking about going to law school and would like to know the work culture over there. Thank you again in advance!
So it's definitely true that every law firm is a bit different, but generally speaking all law firms are very strict about billable hours because it's not just an "internal count" of hours, those timesheets are how they bill clients. That being said, I have another video where I give my thoughts on how to bill hours as an associate (and the thinking behind it), in which I think that short breaks (like bathroom breaks) should absolutely be counted in your billable hours. :) ua-cam.com/video/M9SqD8MdIrQ/v-deo.html P.S. If you're not already a member, I run a free FB group for law students and incoming law students looking for clarity and support in their law school journey, would you like the link to join?
That sounds awful. This is why I love nursing i can make 80-90k a year working three days a week with eight days off every two weeks and a take up to six weeks off paid each year. If I want to work more I can add a few shifts per pay period and be over six figures. It’s dynamic and I have a ton of autonomy in what field of nursing I work in and I never take work home with me
@M G If being a lawyer is what you want to do, it's my firm belief that it's never too old to start! As with all law students, be mindful of the cost and how long it will take to pay back student loans and the types of jobs you may need to take starting out to get yourself back in the black, but it's definitely doable! And there's definitely no downside to starting the process, taking the LSAT, seeing which law schools you're competitive to get into and what their graduating class employment stats look like, and each step of the way you'll have additional information that will allow you to make a more informed decision :)
@@jamielannister3627 boring in what sense? Now a days a nurse is not limited when it comes to career path, you could pursue IT RN, CEO RN, RN ANESTHESIOLOGIST, MSN teaching, research rn...theres alot options and route...a lawyer is a lawyer you deal with the same issue day in day out...
@@Pixiwoot78 I've looked into nursing a bit more since I posted my last comment, and I have to admit it does sound more appealing to me now than it did originally. Most of what I've read online just seems too good to be true though. Do you really need to only work 40 hours a week at most and still earn a 6-figure income (depending on the state)? How difficult is it to go into nursing if you had a completely unrelated major? If you have any knowledge about these questions I would like to know what you've found out so far.
@@jamielannister3627 yes, of course even if your previous career was totally unrelated to medical field it doesnt matter. You need to check the prerequisites to get into the program and see if some of your courses will be credited towards nursing. You could basically take nursing online now. Yes only 36 hours a week, depends on which state but for the most part that's the required hrs. I am a nurse now an Administrative Officer I decided to pursue my Masters degree in Business Administration after six years of being a beside nurse. I enjoy my freedom of taking short vacay every month. I will work 3 days in a row and be off for 5 days every 2 weeks.. I sometimes squeeze my days and be off for 8 days without taking paid leave. I have a very comfortable life bec of my career choices. Btw my husband is also a nurse.
The short answer is that you make time the best you can. Yes, you will be working a lot, but you won't be working 24/7, so during the hours you're not working you have to carve out niches when you can go get dinner with friends, or go watch a movie, or join a local sports league. The other important thing is to work on setting boundaries as much as you can, based on what's important to you. A lot of the attorneys with families or young children made it a point to leave the office at 7pm to eat dinner and put their kids to bed, and then logged back onto their laptop later that night. You also take advantage of extra time during the "down times" when the workflow is slower and you can work from home or take a weekend trip. Some creative and flexible planning goes into it, but it's doable :)
@@aishwaryasingh6859 I actually run a free FB group for law students and prelaw students, and there are members who are parents heading into law school so that might help you get a sense for the balance. Would you like the link to join? You can definitely also check out this video I made from one working lawyer mom's perspective(!): ua-cam.com/video/_9Ym4APEjlE/v-deo.html
Hey Ty'Anna Noel! This is a great idea for a video and one I definitely have on the list! I've never worked in-house before but I have some good friends who have (and currently do), so my idea is to do a comparison video with them! I'll keep you posted!! :)
I love your channel! I’ve always been interested in public interest and have never heard great things about biglaw... stress, work life balance, etc., but your channel actually leaves me feeling more optimistic. I’m currently trying to choose between several options for law school: a few options which I think would present great opportunities but are more expensive, versus a full ride option at a school ranked about 30ish. I am keeping my options open for now but if I went to one of the more expensive schools I would consider biglaw to repay some of the debt right after graduating. Anyway, thanks for all of the insight, it’s super helpful and informative!
My pleasure!! I'm so glad the videos are helpful!! It sounds like you have great options in front of you! In case you're looking for some unsolicited advice, I would think about: (1) Where would you like to live and practice law in 3 years? A T14 school will give you national reach and a more regional school will primarily make you competitive for jobs in that city/state (which is totally fine if you know that's where you'd like to begin your career!); and (2) the low-to-no law school debt factor is HUGE because it will give you the freedom to pursue the career you want right off the bat and give you flexibility in developing your career path down the road as well. If you're considering a T14 school at full or close to full price, it's true that the prestige, name recognition, and connections can help you get positions at more high-profile law firms, govt positions, and even non-profits, I would just say to be realistic about the steps you would need to take to pay off that debt as soon as possible (which it definitely sounds like you are) and think through what you would like to do with your law degree once you're in the black, and whether you would need a T14 law degree to ultimately do that thing.
As a rising 3L NYC law student, went through various videos of yours just now, and if you ever want to connect, I’d love to chat about your prior work in the city!
Do you not get bored if you work 11 to 12 hours a day. I mean yeah the pay is good but I feel like there is no social life when you work from 8am to 8pm
Hi, Chloe! It's definitely true that working 11-12 hours a day can be tiring, but if the work is interesting, engaging, and challenging it can actually be a really positive experience. I once heard someone say that the two most fulfilling weeks in their life was one week laying on a beach reading books and drinking piña coladas, and the other was a week when they worked 110 hours and developed and finished a project that was super meaningful to them. I think that as a general rule human beings get a lot of pleasure out of hard work and being productive, provided that hard work is going towards building something they care about. So with respect to working in a law firm, it can be exciting and motivating to work in a fast-paced environment where you're building a career you care about and becoming an expert in a field that matters to you, and it can feel like the days fly by because you have the weeks and months planned out with substantive projects and deadlines and goals. In a similar way, you could be working 6-8 hours a day where the work is boring and menial and doesn't fulfill your potential, and leaves you feeling burnt-out, unhappy, and directionless. In my experience, the TYPE of work you're doing is far more important to your quality of life than the number of hours you're putting in each day. It's true that at larger firms you tend to get a larger helping of the boring and menial the first few years, but the hope is that you find a firm where you start getting substantive projects as soon as possible, start playing a productive role on your teams, and start gaining ownership over parts of the case or deal. When that started to happen for me is when I personally started to feel alive and productive and spent longer hours at the office on my own to make sure whatever project or brief I was working on was excellent because I had ownership over it and it was mine and I cared about it. I hope this answers your question :)
Hey, Karenny!! Awesome!! I'm so glad the videos have been helpful! Let me know if there is anything in particular you'd like to see a video on that I haven't done yet! :)
Hi Angela - Thanks for this great video! As a lawyer myself, I’m glad to see fellow UA-camrs shedding light on the practice of law. Much needed. Keep up the great work 🙂
I’ve always had a passion since I was a child to become a lawyer it’s always stuck I’ve never had a passion for anything else but I don’t want to become one of those people who doesn’t have time for family and friends do you have any advice?
Hi Sarah! I completely understand your concern about working like crazy as a lawyer, and it's definitely true that there are legal jobs out there that are incredibly time-consuming and demand a lot of hours. That being said, there are also 9am-5pm legal jobs out there as well. So at the end of the day it's completely your decision which career path you'd like to pursue. From personal experience I will also say that working a high-demand job doesn't necessarily mean you'll be miserable or not feel like you have time for family and friends. If the work you're doing is fun and exciting and challenging, and you really enjoy being busy and feeling productive and being pushed to your limits, you can work a high-demand job, have a blast doing it, and value the time you spend with family and friends even more. The lawyers that tend to burn out don't usually get there based solely on the hours, but more because the work they're doing doesn't excite them anymore. When the work you're doing lights you up or pushes your potential, it can be an awesome experience and make you feel incredibly fulfilled. So my recommendation for you would be to not discount a legal career at this early stage only because of the hours that some lawyers work. You can absolutely craft a professional life that reflects your goals and priorities, and it doesn't have to look like any certain stereotype at all :) Angela
@@Bookwasbetter So this is definitely the million dollar question! But I do have some thoughts. Working in a nonprofit or government agency role is pretty much universally going to be far fewer hours than working in a private law firm. The tradeoff of course is that you generally make a much higher salary in private practice than in the public sector. A possible balance of earning potential and fewer hours can sometimes be found in a small-to-midsize law firm where you could be making $65,000 to $85,000 per year and billing FAR fewer hours than biglaw associates. Another position around this same salary point is a corporate in-house counsel position (i.e. a lawyer who works internally at a company in their legal department). This is widely believed to be a "unicorn" position in that you're making a really solid income without having to bill hours like in private practice, but in-house counsel will assure you that it's still a demanding job just in a different way. My plan is to create a video series giving you guys a more indepth look into the different positions so that you can get greater clarity around the type of law you'd like to pursue, both in terms of substance and lifestyle!
I worked for a 150 lawyer litigation firm in the northeast for 7 years. anybody who has really been in the trenches Knows that it’s not the time you actually spend, it’s the amount you can get away with billing for. The partners say “they cut our bills down, we puff them up.” That’s the game. If anybody tells you otherwise they’ve Naive and have never really been in the game. I billed 2700 hours one year, so did the other attorneys in my practice group. You really think we were actually working that entire time? Wake up people
What was your social life like during this? Single, in a relationship, starting a family etc? Just wondering feel free to keep it private if you’d like
I was single and then in a relationship, but I didn't have kids. Associates with kids definitely had to get resourceful and creative with their schedules -- many of them would go home around 7pm or so to put their kids to bed and then log on to their laptops for another 2-3 hours at night to finish up work for the day. Are you thinking of going into law school in the future?
Haha I'm glad you think so too!! I actually really enjoyed my time in BigLaw because I liked being busy all the time and always knowing what I had in the works for the upcoming weeks, months, and year. There were times when it was too much for sure, but after a big push there always tends to be a slow down, so it was a nice ebb and flow :)
Angela Vorpahl hi I’m panicking...looking at finishing law school with over $200k in debt....sounds like a bonehead decision to come out making MAYBE $100k........also, Professors joke about their debt all the time. Should I just stop digging myself into a hole?
@@thomaslibbey5694 Are you looking at heading into law school and trying to make the decision whether to apply/attend, or are you already in law school trying to decide whether you should finish?
There are no billable hours when you work in in-house because your only "client" is the company you're working for (as opposed to a law firm lawyer who has lots of individual clients on separate matters). That being said, I do have a comparison video of law firm life vs. in-house life on the short list so stay tuned!
I have a family friend that’s a law firm partner making a ton of money, in the millions. It makes me curious that are law firm partner paid in lump sum at the end of the year or paid in weekly, bi-weekly or monthly manner?
Hi Arbaz! I actually have a video coming out on this exact topic in a bit! :) The short answer is that if s/he is a non-equity partner (meaning he does not own part of the law firm) then he'll be paid a salary just like an associate would (usually every 2 weeks depending on the law firm's pay period). If s/he is an equity partner then they will be paid a percentage of the profits (usually based on a point system devised by the law firm to determine each equity partner's "contributions" that year). As far as if they get that amount in a lump sum at the end of the year or are paid the amount out over the following year according to the usual pay period (e.g. every 2 weeks in typical "salary" fashion) I'm actually not sure, but I would imagine something closer to the latter -- perhaps monthly or quarterly installments. Good question!
I was searching UA-cam for "why lawyers work so many hours"? I understand you had many cases, but doesn't a case ever get to the point where more work won't change the final product? What makes legal work accumulate so many hours to get the work done? In so many other fields, high cost work that takes long hours is a job screaming out for automation of some kind. In any case, thanks for making this amazing video! 🙂
Hi Daryl! I'm so glad the video was helpful! It's an interesting point you bring up because one of the most time-consuming activities for a junior associate (in litigation specifically) is document review, which requires the review of hundreds of thousands of documents before they can be produced to the opposing side. Law firms largely delegate that work to first and second year associates, but are beginning to outsource more and more of it to e-discovery services. This is just one example of course, but one of the reasons this can't be automated is that every document must be checked by an attorney to determine if it's privileged or not. Maybe at some point in the future a program will be advanced enough that judges will start allowing this step to be automated, but that is likely very far out in the future. The other thing that keeps the hours long is that every case or deal has so many moving parts, and both sides have opposing interests, and so it's a constant back-and-forth to solve problems, strategically file motions, and work with other side to come to a conclusion. So the thing that ultimately stops work product from being worked on indefinitely is usually court-ordered deadlines :) Is law school something you're interested in pursuing?
@@AngelaVorpahl Thanks for the thoughtful response. Law school sounds interesting, but that ship has sailed for me. Several years back I decided I wanted to be a technology worker. I do IT consulting and support in the datacenter space. Watching new things get automated is something I see happening as the years progress, hence why I had an eye to see how it might apply to the legal profession. From banks, to federal agencies, to universities, I see many customers who are looking for opportunities to automate as much as they can. All of our jobs will encounter this! I see the double edge sword of automation though. Employers think that they can automate things and hire less competent workers who get paid less. The experienced staff gets laid off cause their pay is higher. The problems happen when the automation process breaks. Imagine 9th graders who only learned math with calculators, then one day the calculator stops working, but they need to do long division. It can cause headaches. In the long term though, automation techniques will only become more reliable. Anyway, I appreciate your fascinating insights!
great info! but if you're billing 2k hours a year, you literally don't have time to attend weddings, especially if all your friends are getting married in that year. lol
Hi! I know it can feel like that sometimes, but I promise you it's doable to bill 2,000+ hours per year and still have a life away from the office! The key is to have a steady flow of work so that you can start billing as soon as you walk into the office and don't burn any office hours seeking out or waiting on work -- since those are hours you can't bill. I billed 2300-2500 hours every year in private practice and I was still able to prioritize important life events like weddings and time with my family and friends! Law firm life is definitely busy, but it's definitely possible to make time to do the things that are important to you, especially the more senior you become at the firm! :)
Loved the video, can you do an example of what 2,000 billable hours looks like? My firm has a range of 1800-2000 requirement and I'd love to get a general idea of what that looks like. The practice is litigation. Thanks!
Hey! I'm guessing you're asking about what a typical day looks like when you're billing 2,000 hours a year? If that's the case, I actually made a video to do a deep dive into the day in the life of a biglaw associate to give you guys an idea of what's involved and what that looks like! Here's the link: ua-cam.com/video/4Ew0OxG3qlg/v-deo.html Feel free to let me know if you have any follow-up questions :)
@@AngelaVorpahl Hi Angela, that video definitely helped. I was looking into figuring out what the numbers you used would look like (2200 per year = 11 hrs per day/ 5 days per week/ 1 Saturday per month/ 50 weeks) if only needing 2000 instead? I hope this makes sense. Also if you don't mind, to reach 2200 on average how many hours did you work on the 1 Saturday per month? Was it 11 hours as well?
@@KP-uz3nk So it's not going to be an exact science, and a lot of how many hours you'll have to be in the office will depend on how quickly you can get work. Because if you there is a lot of downtime between projects those are hours that you can't bill but still need to be in the office. So, for example, in the "Day in the Life of a BigLaw Associate," Marisa worked about the same hours I did even though she only had to bill 2000 hours per year (instead of 2400 hours per year) just because of the start-and-stop nature of the work. And I definitely have friends that were at work 11 hours a day, 5 days a week, and worked on Saturdays and billed 2000 hours a year. For me, I usually worked at least 4.5 hours on a Saturday if I was "normal busy," but could work up to 7.5 to 10.5 both Saturday and Sunday when things were REALLY busy. Work will always ebb and flow, so it's impossible to say what a "normal" weekend will always look like, but hopefully that helps give you an idea!
Angela, I really appreciate all your videos and find them very useful and informative for the most part, however, I feel you might get more views if you also occasionally focus on the lighter, more humorous/fun side of lawyering. In my opinion, it would draw in more of the casual viewers that help videos go viral, rather than the super-elite niche of viewers who are either current or prospective law school students... :)
Hi Pascual! I appreciate your feedback so much, and I definitely think you have a good point. I've recently been experimenting with making a type of comedy-esque video (which I'm super nervous to post), but I think it will be a nice change from the purely informative/training-style videos I usually do. Thanks for the suggestion, and I'm definitely go to take it to heart and see how I can find ways to do this going forward :)
@@AngelaVorpahl thanks for being so open to the people who follow your channel. That just bodes well for your future. ;) You don't need to be funny to get views (though it really does help), you just need a topic that more people than your current followers can really relate to. :) Something as simple as "How do lawyers really have fun?" might be interesting, even if you use your normal, informative style of delivery. ;)
So interesting listening to your videos. I’m a junior banking lawyer from London and it’s great to hear a mid-level associate’s views. Could you let us know how you navigated law firm politics please?
Hi, narusku4! So the topic of "law firm politics" is generally pretty nuanced and specific to each office, but if you're referring to how to build a good reputation for yourself within the law firm, I made a video on that that you might find helpful: ua-cam.com/video/pKCd0lpDmwQ/v-deo.html! With respect to navigating differences in partner personalities and work preferences, that is going to be very person-specific, but generally speaking if you're a hard worker, exceed their expectations, show enthusiasm for the job, and make an effort to brighten up the team dynamic, it's going to be hard for people not to love you and want to work with you!
The latter! Unless you're an equity partner (i.e. a part-owner of a law firm), you will be paid a yearly salary which pretty much all law firms pay on a bimonthly pay cycle (i.e. every 2 weeks).
That's true and can definitely happen, especially when you're a brand new associate and everything takes you SO much longer than you think it's going to. It depends on the law firm, but some will still give you "credit" for those billable hours even if they don't wind up actually billing them to the client.
@@AngelaVorpahl by the way, thank you for putting up so many informative videos. I'm glad to discover your channel. I practice in North Carolina; my ex-husband practiced big law and is now a law professor. How do you find time to make such great, professional-looking videos while also working for a big law firm?
@@aalegalfocus I'm so glad to hear the videos resonate with you!! And I totally don't practice in biglaw anymore, I didn't start making videos until I left private practice :)
@@AngelaVorpahl oh, that makes sense. Working in biglaw typically means not having time for anything other than work. Hope you're enjoying what you are doing now!
So could you answer this for me? Let's say I want to work closer to the 40-50hrs/week. Are there jobs like that out there, or is it pretty much, work your a** off and you'll get a good position and make the good salary?
Hi, Nikolos! Yes, there definitely are :) If you're looking to work a more traditional 40-50 hours/week schedule I would focus your search on non-profits, government agencies, and in-house positions at smaller corporations. Smaller law firms will also get you closer to those numbers. You'll be making a more moderate salary than you would be at a larger or mid-size law firm, but to be honest that's the trade-off that TONS of lawyers choose to make after working a few years at a law firm to save up money and pay off some of their student loan debt.
So do law firms typically take into account the type of practice you perform when looking at realistic billable hours? (In terms of say Litigation vs corporate).
Not really no, all associates regardless of practice group have the same billable hour requirements. That being said, if you work in a practice group that had a slow year firm-wide, the partners will of course understand if your billables are lower than usual, but if that goes on for too long they may have you start working on matters in other practice groups to get your billables back up.
It will definitely depend on the policies of the office, but in pretty much every law firm office, you'll be working some from home, whether that's a few hours at night or on the weekends. I tried to get as much done at the office during the week so I could come home and relax, but without a doubt there will be times where you'll have to log back onto your laptop for a few hours at night and/or on the weekends :)
I just made a similar video and was looking to see other videos, your video is very informative of how much lawyers work in the US. Even though I am an English Lawyer, I enjoyed this and other videos.
@Soraya Watkins Haha I hear you. The truth is those first few months are exhausting. We're working SO much longer hours than we're used to and every project is the FIRST time we've ever done it so the learning curve is massive and everything takes forever to figure out and do. After a few months your body starts adjusting and getting used to the longer hours and you're able to go harder for longer without even realizing it. It's kind of like endurance training for a sport, just mental training in this case. Plus, the longer you work the more you'll eventually start to get repeat projects where you know what the heck you're doing and it will be slightly easier and faster each time you do it. Our office was a late-start office so I usually got into the office around 10am and left around 8pm/9pm on a "normal busy" day. If something was due or I got caught in a case research rabbit hole, it could be midnight or 2am before I left, but that probably happened more like 1/3 of the time. How are your hours looking so far? :)
Awesme! Happy to have you! I run a free FB group made up of law students and other young lawyers and I'm in there all the time answering questions and supporting you guys any way I can :) Would you like the link to join?
@@AngelaVorpahl i dunno if 15 years in of practice i can still be grouped with "young lawyers." keep it up. I am currently editing and shooting my law partners brand new youtube channel "trials and errors" keep up the good work!
Hi Komal, while the highest paid entry-level associate positions start at $190,000 in biglaw firms, the biggest chunk of new law school graduates (50%) start out making $45,000 to $75,000. Is law school something you're considering? :)
Hey Angela, Quick question: So I know that attorneys, when they are working hours that are billable, are doing work that’s meant for the client. My question is, what exactly do you do as an attorney that causes you to work so many hours? I’ve always assumed that attorneys draft documents and talk to clients. What else do attorneys do?
Hey, Garrick! There are a ton of different legal practice groups that focus on different areas of the law, but to simplify it there are two main "umbrella" types of law -- litigation and corporate law. I'll summarize it below, but I've also made a video on the difference between litigation and corporate law if you want to check it out(!): ua-cam.com/video/MnjX1nByoOc/v-deo.html. LITIGATION If you're a litigator, you'll be spending your time bringing lawsuits and/or defending against lawsuits. The work in this field starts with the pre-suit evaluation and investigation to determine if there is even a claim to bring (e.g. talking with clients, witnesses, involved parties, reviewing documents, researching causes of action, defenses, etc.). Then if you decide to bring the lawsuit, the first main stage after drafting and filing the complaint is discovery (requesting and reviewing documents to both produce and identify from the other side the most relevant evidence in the case, preparing/defending depositions of witnesses, and developing expert reports for any experts you'll use in the case). This stage is the longest because discovery involves a TON of back and forth between the attorney teams over what documents/depositions are relevant, privileged, accessible, etc. Also in this stage you generally have a LOT of motion practice -- i.e. researching/drafting/defending against/responding to motions to dismiss, change venue, compel discovery, quash depositions, strike expert reports, and then dispositive motions for summary judgment to rule on part (or all) of the case as a matter of law. Once you get through discovery and motion practice, you'll advance to the pretrial stage where you will start all of your pre-trial work of developing exhibit lists, witness lists, depositions designations, jury instructions, verdict forms, supplemental expert reports (if applicable), opening statements, and direct and cross examination of witnesses. This is a HUGE amount of work, and generally takes place in a relatively short period of time. Then if the parties don't reach a settlement agreement, you'll go to trial (either in front of a judge or a jury). Trials can last anywhere from a few days to a few weeks to months, depending on the subject matter and how many plaintiffs or defendants are involved. During trial, you're working 24/7, and it's an incredibly intense (but also thrilling) thinking-on-your-feet emotional and creative and strategic process. CORPORATE LAW Corporate lawyers generally work in the business of drafting and reviewing contracts between business entities for things like financing, loans, mergers, acquisitions, partnership agreements, shareholder agreements, etc. There is a LOT of document reviewal, strategy and logistical sessions, and back and forth with the client corporations and in-house counsel as the agreements are researched, negotiated, drafted, and ultimately signed. So, in answer to your question, yes there is a lot of reviewing of documents and talking to clients as the cases and deals move forward, but there are a thousand smaller day-to-day steps that are happening as well. And keep in mind that most lawyers are not working a single case -- they could be working anywhere from 2 to 10 to 20 cases depending on the type of law they're practicing and the size of the case(s). I hope this helps!! Angela
The attorney I am looking for would set up the articles of incorporation, protect intellectual property, assist in real estate acquisitions, and play an active role in the further development of the company. The work load will never demand more than part time hours, and the simplicity and integrity of the company positively diminish stress levels. Growth is not allowed to increase stress; we simply hire more people. Curious... Does this sound interesting to anyone? Also... What salary would someone want for this job? Thanking all in advance for any advice or direction they can give me!
Yep! And that would be an entry-level salary for a first year associate. And it's defintely not just top 10 firms, it would likely be at least the top 200 law firms as well as boutique law firms that pay those same market rate salaries.
👉🏻 Download the FREE GUIDE: “Best Questions to Ask in Law Firm Interviews": launch.angelavorpahl.com/best-questions-to-ask-visit Have more questions about billable hours, legal jobs, or the life of lawyer? Let me know in the comments below!!! :)
Hey Angela - love these videos. Super helpful as a future law student. I think a good idea for a video would be a day in the life of a litigator. Something like going through a typical week of what you did from the moment you walked into the office until when you stopped working. Thanks!!
@@markiased6848 I love this idea!! I made a video similar to this about a day in the life of biglaw where we talk about a typical day as a litigation associate and a corporate law associate (ua-cam.com/video/4Ew0OxG3qlg/v-deo.html), but I could also go more indepth and give you guys an hour by hour breakdown of my day!
With all honesty, on average, what percentage of billable hours are actually legitimate vs padded on? A close friend of mine is an associate at a mid sized law firm in NYC and she says it's about 60/40.
Hi, Rob! It depends what you mean by "padded on." When they're just starting out, it's not unusual for junior associates to take longer to complete projects than a partner believes a client may be willing to pay, so the partner may cut out some of the associate's hours before sending the bill to the client (however, this shouldn't reduce the associate's internal billable hour count for law firm tracking purposes). If you're asking if lawyers straight up report hours that they're not working as billable hours, I'm sure it happens but I personally don't know of anyone who did that. As you may expect, that's crazy unethical and should not be taken as an industry standard or practice. The lawyers I know and work with take their jobs and their reputations very seriously, and padding hours is a huge deal that should not be taken lightly or ever practiced.
Angela Vorpahl Thanks for your reply, but my friend claims that it’s fairly common, at least in her company, that partners regularly “adjust” billable hours to clients, and only stop or reduce the practice only when specific clients complain. It seems that partners are even bonused in these “adjusted” hours since they’re pure profit. Without any real accountability, it’s no wonder it’s an industry wide issue.
@@RobertLeBlancPhoto How crazy, I actually have never heard about that until now. As a partner, I don't know how you would ever recover your accountability if a client caught you doing that, especially now when referrals are so heavily based on reputation. I agree, I hope it self-corrects soon!
Angela Vorpahl I’m lucky that I got out a big city firm and into a small practice (5 of us) because the people in the city are truly dreadful people and the work load is too much. Even though things are a lot better in the small firm, i still hate dealing with court deadlines and uncooperative clients (especially in personal injury cases).
@@AlphaToEpsilon Oh man, I'm so sorry to hear that. Have you thought about trying a non-legal job still related to the industry, like legal marketing, legal recruiting, or law firm management, or leaving the industry altogether?
I’m an entry level IT Security Analyst making over 90k a year with just 2 years experience out of college and currently interviewing for a job with a pay range of 119-178k and another with a base salary of 112k. Guess I’m curious what other jobs are comparable in terms of salary. I once considered going down the law path.
Hi Josh! That pay range is VERY high, even in the legal industry with 2 years of experience. To make similar money (in the $100,000 to $150,000 range) you're generally looking at working at a midsized or boutique law firm or working in-house at a larger company. The main position that would make more than that is working in biglaw, which right now has starting salaries around $180,000 to $190,000 plus bonus.
Hi, do you have any advice for international lawyers who emigrate to the United States or Canada to practice? In my case I plan to emigrate to Canada to study the JD/MBA program offered by the University of Ottawa. Greetings and thanks for your videos.
Hi! I don't have experience with the Canadian legal system or legal industry, but I am working on making a video for international law students and lawyers looking to work in the U.S., so stay tuned for that!
They definitely can! Of course we all try to avoid doing so whenever possible, but if there's a client matter emergency that pops up, or a big brief due or expert report due or trial coming up, sometimes it's unavoidable.
Billable hours are the hours that you can actually "bill" (or "charge") to a client. Meaning, not just the hours you're physically in the office but the hours you're actually working on a legal matter that the law firm can recoup payment for (from the client).
The pdf you linked in the description doesn't work anymore. =( Is there another way to look at it? I was thinking of switching from government to private practice and wanted to get a feel of the schedule.
I'm so glad to hear it was helpful! In terms of the "consequences" of not making billable hours, every law firm handles it a bit differently. In some law firms, meeting the minimum billable hour requirement (e.g. 2000 billable hours) is a requisite for getting the highest bonus. If you bill less than 2000 hours (say, between 1900 and 1999), then you may receive a lower tier bonus (or no bonus at all). In other firms, they don't draw a super hard line with bonuses, and as long as you're "close" to hitting billables (say, 1900-2000), you'll get the bonus. If you're significantly below the billable hour requirements (say, 1900 or less) it will likely be brought up in your end-of-year evaluation. The partner conducting the evaulation will likely ask things about why your billables were low -- e.g. did you have trouble finding work? were the matters you were assigned not very busy? did you have a personal issue that took you away from a full workload? Generally speaking, these types of conversations can happen earlier than end-of-year, that is, if you're not hitting your monthly billable hours then the managing partner may ask you these questions at the end of the month or end of the quarter. So there's definitely both incentive (carrot) and pressure (stick) to hit your billables. Work definitely ebbs and flows, so sometimes you'll be slower and sometimes you'll be crazy busy. In my experience, it's actually MORE stressful to be slow because you still have to be in the office (even if you don't have billable work) and you know that you'll have to make up those billable hours with a busier period at some point in the future. So I very much prefer being "overly" busy than "not busy enough." And, to your question," if you consistently under-bill and you don't make any effort to find work to meet those billable hours and you've been talked to several times, there could be a conversation about letting you go. But if you're a hard worker and you're seeking out work, it rarely gets to the point of being fired for underbilling (particularly if, through no fault of your own, the practice group is slow or the economy overall is slow). I hope that helps! Are you interested in pursuing a law degree? :)
Great video, I had a question about small and medium sized law firms, I was wondering how the hours worked there or in other types of law practice like tax law or trusts/estates compares to the hours mentioned in your video, and maybe if there is a better work/life balance found there compared to in larger firms? Thank you!
Hey, Adam! Yes, smaller firms (under 50 lawyers) generally have much lower billable hour requirements, usually hovering around 1600-1800 per year. That will also generally translate into a much more predictable work schedule, being able to postpone answering emails until the following work day, and actually turning off your phone for holidays and vacations. Trusts and estates are generally practiced by smaller firms, so that's a good focus if you're looking for that lifestyle. Tax law will depend on the size of the firm (and by extension the size of the client), but tax is a great area to get into because those skills are marketable for big and small shops :)
Hey hi Angela, I am completing my LLB from India and planning to do Masters from US or Canada...Can you guide that how we can start practice in US. Love from India❤️🤗
Hi, Crazy Llama! I'm actually working on that exact video right now! A comparison of a monthly income and budget when I worked as a federal judicial clerk in Dallas, TX and when I worked as a law firm associate in NYC! Stay tuned!! :)
That's definitely an option! But there are definitely other types of law and legal sectors where you don't have to bill 2000-2200 hours a year. Positions in government, public interest, and some in-house roles will give you more of a 9am-6pm / 9am-7pm lifestyle, with nights and weekends much less frequently. Are you thinking of becoming a lawyer? :)
This will probably vary from firm to firm, but what happens if someone’s time gets away from them due to health reasons? As in, if you have to take time off for doctors, you’re not getting those hours back, so you couldn’t reach the hour quota.
Not meeting billable hour "goals" is common, and it can happen for a lot of reasons -- from personal difficulties to there simply not being enough work to go around. Most firms are very reasonable when it comes to associates not meeting their billable hour requirements if it's for reasons outside of their control (like an extended illness). Some firms may not give associates the higher level bonus if they don't hit a preset billable hour goal for the year, but other firms will actually give all of the associates in the same class year the same bonus regardless of hours billed. You only start getting into hot water if you consistently don't meet your billable hour requirements and you're not making an attempt to find work or join teams in order to do so. As far as just going to regular doctors' appointments, everyone has those so you can easily make up a few lost hour in a day on another day or over the weekend.
Hey, Kyle! Totally! Go for it!! The hours can be long, but the work can be really exciting and challenging and push you to your potential, which are the reasons I love it :)
God created this universe with his power n thought n inscribed the ten commandments to abide by. Salute to all the good lawyers for upkeep of the law n order n bringing in justice by fight n flag the justice for the people.
How does being a slow worker or a very fast one work with billable hours? If youre a slow worker should you bill longer than average hours for a given work
Hi Menelik, so the short answer is to always bill the number of hours that you actually spend on a project. As a junior associate it's going to naturally take you longer to complete projects and the partners know that. In most law firms they will still give you "credit" for billing the hours, and then if the partner on the project feels like the project should have taken fewer hours then he/she can bill the client for fewer hours. But again, that shouldn't affect the number of hours you get credit for billing in terms of your monthly or yearly billable hours. At a higher level, there is definitely an industry-wide recognition that billable hours can (and probably do) reward a certain level of inefficiency, not so much on the part of the lawyers themselves but on the part of law firms' unwillingness to adopt tech solutions that could arguably speed up the work process. But as of yet, law firms have consistently been unwilling to change their billing practices and the billable hour is still the predominant way of tracking work and billing clients in the U.S.
@@meneliksolomon7984 Oh man, I wish! Unfortunately there's nothing so clear cut as that (but that would make our lives a ton easier). Usually a partner will tell you when he/she wants the project by, but in my experience they ALWAYS tell you it's going to take you less time than it actually does, so you never really get a good handle on how long projects take until you actually dig in and start working on one :)
Yeah it was definitely intense, but I was at a time in my life where work was my biggest focus and so I loved feeling busy and productive and learning all the things :)
Haha I know, it's a ton. But if you're into working in a fast-paced environment and get excited about learning a lot in a short amount of time, it can be really fun!
... and!..... Eleven-hours of work?!.... What would I need exactly?!....A "multi-purpose Robot"?!.....who can be a small-kitchen, (portable)...,a friend (regardless of gender)!..., a mentor without ego..., a roommate (Vegetarian)...and honest care taker,...etc....but can a single entity (human-oidically)/robotically... help me?!....In the sense!...,(N. O.)!...?!...☕👌😐📖📚
you are so logical-which makes the video so easy to watch. I like how you segmented the arguments and reminded the audience in the end about the final take-away points!
This may be the first comment I've ever gotten about the organizational style of one of my videos and I am HERE for it!! :) Thanks so much for watching and for your sweet words!!!
I have no idea why I’m 6 videos deep into your content. I’ve worked in PR and marketing for about 8 years 😂. For whatever reason, this is fascinating and so are you.
Haha thanks! I'm so glad to hear it!! Are you potentially thinking about becoming a lawyer?
Angela Vorpahl nahh just curious about other careers I guess.
Man I'm really glad software isn't like this. 8 hours a day max, more than that and you quickly lose productivity. Bill 150-200/hr for high quality work, and have a social life!
That sounds like a great balance!
@@AngelaVorpahl software isn't like that anymore when the economic is now in a crunch. Big tech laying off 10k-20k software engineers that use to enjoy free food, amenities, 40 work hours now find themselves jobless.... :/ Pendulum has swung back hard.
Software is overrated. That market cannot sustain itself.
Super eye opening video for someone interested in attorney life. Please keep up the awesome content! :)
Thanks!!! I'm glad the video was helpful!! :)
Get another degree. Dont do it.
I read this as "How well do layers work?" As I am from Wisconsin my first thought was that they work really well and it's best to dress in layers when it's really cold out.
Haha very good advice indeed :)
I was in public accounting for 4 years so I totally relate to this! It was awful and I’m so glad that I don’t have target billable hours now 😂
That's awesome!! And it sounds from your username that you've pursued some adventures along the way!
12 hours a day and 2weeks vacation. Good Bye USA welcome EU. 5 weeks of vacation v.g. Nordic countries, and other EU members.
Haha don't make us jealous like thaaaaat! It's so true and so sad how little time off U.S. workers in general *(and lawyers in particular) take compared to their EU counterparts. And it's shown in surveys over and over that lawyers would trade a cut in compensation for more time off and more flexible working hours. I think those changes are happening in the U.S. legal industry, but very very slowly. I hope they advance much further in our lifetime!
E Irving Diaz yea but they don’t make as much money
Playground Of Sound depends on the firm, same goes for USA
Playground Of Sound they make 120,910 per month I think
But America pays more than the EU!
Long working hours are most prevalent in law firms, Big4s, MBB, PE/VC, IB firms. It is an occupational hazard though!
For real tho :)
Working in a law firm, people ask me all the time when I’m going to become a lawyer. Honestly, since I started 4 years ago, I would never want to be a lawyer. All of them are awesome, hardworking and brilliant, but even when on vacation, they’re working, most of them stay well past closing, and come in on one weekend day, if not both. I love my job and working for them, but I also love my personal and family life!
That's definitely an accurate representation based on my experience as well, and I'm so glad you found a career that works for you and your family! :)
What do you do?
Luba Solonenko assistant, working on my paralegal 😊
kydil I actually want to do the same. I like the idea of working remotely, though I haven’t worked as a legal assistant. I have a family member who’s a lawyer.
kydil It’s encouraging to hear you like it.
I really wanna be a lawyer but I really wanna have kids and spent time with them so your video will hopefully be helpful for that!
I don't have kids personally, but from what I've seen having kids and being a full-time professional is always a difficult balance. That being said, it's also absolutely doable and there are tons of female lawyers out their killing it as professionals and as moms so you'll be in good company :)
Forget kids. They will cut into your billable hours and you'll be fired.
@@stankakol5195 really??
@@aishwaryasingh6859 I wouldn't chance it.
Awesome vid! I'm in my first year in public accounting fresh out of college and it's going! Fast paced and busy! What I like about it is that even tho right now its tax season and were putting in an avg of 60+hrs a week -- its seasonal. Only 4 months! Yea it kinda sucks during, but May thru August we get out early Friday's (3pm) and no Saturdays!
Ooh no weekends is SO key!! Getting that time to unplug so that you can come back at it again is critical. Sounds like you're working a ton but learning like crazy, and that's what it's all about! Keep it up!! :)
The billable hour is the bane of most lawyers’ lives.
It could be the holy grail of you know how to manipulate it.
@@tonyz7189 manipulate? Do you mean pad?
What doe you mean by “dinner break”? How long are you working in a day?
Hi! My average work day was 10:15am to 9:15pm, so I would break for dinner around 7:30pm-8:30pm, and if I was still in the office working than the firm allowed us to bill our dinner to the law firm. My colleagues who had families or kids would usually go home around 7:30pm to have dinner with their family and put their kids to bed, and then log back onto their laptops for 2-3 hours at night.
Follow up question: Are law firms really that strict about timesheet/billable hours? I am currently an engineer and we have billable hours where we can charge our times to project/client, but it's VERY flexible. I mostly work from home anyway but when I go to office, I always get off at 4pm. (when I work from home, I log into company laptop at 7am and log of at 4pm). 7am to 4pm always which is total of 9hours (8billable + 1 lunch break). When I go into office, it doesn't really matter if I chat with my colleagues for a few minutes, or play a ping pong for half an hour, hack even if I take 1.5 hour lunch break, I still get off at 4pm. I see you even separate the "bathroom break" and sure technically it's not billable working hours, but do you really have to be that strict about it? I mean your supervisor doesn't monitor you and check if you went to bathroom / have a quick coffee break etc right? or does he? (I am not specifically asking your supervisor per say, I am asking the law firms in general and their culture). I am currently an engineer, but already took LSAT and got a solid score. Thinking about going to law school and would like to know the work culture over there. Thank you again in advance!
So it's definitely true that every law firm is a bit different, but generally speaking all law firms are very strict about billable hours because it's not just an "internal count" of hours, those timesheets are how they bill clients. That being said, I have another video where I give my thoughts on how to bill hours as an associate (and the thinking behind it), in which I think that short breaks (like bathroom breaks) should absolutely be counted in your billable hours. :) ua-cam.com/video/M9SqD8MdIrQ/v-deo.html
P.S. If you're not already a member, I run a free FB group for law students and incoming law students looking for clarity and support in their law school journey, would you like the link to join?
That sounds awful. This is why I love nursing i can make 80-90k a year working three days a week with eight days off every two weeks and a take up to six weeks off paid each year. If I want to work more I can add a few shifts per pay period and be over six figures. It’s dynamic and I have a ton of autonomy in what field of nursing I work in and I never take work home with me
That sounds amazing! I have cousins and friends that are nurses and I have always been envious of their flexible work schedule, it sounds incredible!!
@M G If being a lawyer is what you want to do, it's my firm belief that it's never too old to start! As with all law students, be mindful of the cost and how long it will take to pay back student loans and the types of jobs you may need to take starting out to get yourself back in the black, but it's definitely doable! And there's definitely no downside to starting the process, taking the LSAT, seeing which law schools you're competitive to get into and what their graduating class employment stats look like, and each step of the way you'll have additional information that will allow you to make a more informed decision :)
@@jamielannister3627 boring in what sense? Now a days a nurse is not limited when it comes to career path, you could pursue IT RN, CEO RN, RN ANESTHESIOLOGIST, MSN teaching, research rn...theres alot options and route...a lawyer is a lawyer you deal with the same issue day in day out...
@@Pixiwoot78 I've looked into nursing a bit more since I posted my last comment, and I have to admit it does sound more appealing to me now than it did originally. Most of what I've read online just seems too good to be true though. Do you really need to only work 40 hours a week at most and still earn a 6-figure income (depending on the state)? How difficult is it to go into nursing if you had a completely unrelated major?
If you have any knowledge about these questions I would like to know what you've found out so far.
@@jamielannister3627 yes, of course even if your previous career was totally unrelated to medical field it doesnt matter. You need to check the prerequisites to get into the program and see if some of your courses will be credited towards nursing. You could basically take nursing online now. Yes only 36 hours a week, depends on which state but for the most part that's the required hrs. I am a nurse now an Administrative Officer I decided to pursue my Masters degree in Business Administration after six years of being a beside nurse. I enjoy my freedom of taking short vacay every month. I will work 3 days in a row and be off for 5 days every 2 weeks.. I sometimes squeeze my days and be off for 8 days without taking paid leave. I have a very comfortable life bec of my career choices. Btw my husband is also a nurse.
In India, a corporate lawyer working with Tier I Firm, may work anywhere between 65-80 hrs a week (excluding travelling time)
That's about the same as here!! Do they compensate you guys fairly for the hours you're putting in?
@@AngelaVorpahlThe entry level of median salaries in comparison with UD/EU counterparts is on the lower range!
how do you have time for a personal life?
The short answer is that you make time the best you can. Yes, you will be working a lot, but you won't be working 24/7, so during the hours you're not working you have to carve out niches when you can go get dinner with friends, or go watch a movie, or join a local sports league. The other important thing is to work on setting boundaries as much as you can, based on what's important to you. A lot of the attorneys with families or young children made it a point to leave the office at 7pm to eat dinner and put their kids to bed, and then logged back onto their laptop later that night. You also take advantage of extra time during the "down times" when the workflow is slower and you can work from home or take a weekend trip. Some creative and flexible planning goes into it, but it's doable :)
@@AngelaVorpahl I would really love to have see a law firm associate new mom perspective on work life balance.
@@aishwaryasingh6859 I actually run a free FB group for law students and prelaw students, and there are members who are parents heading into law school so that might help you get a sense for the balance. Would you like the link to join?
You can definitely also check out this video I made from one working lawyer mom's perspective(!): ua-cam.com/video/_9Ym4APEjlE/v-deo.html
You're Channel is Amazing Thank you so much, this is so helpful like every video thank you!
That's awesome to hear!! I'm so glad!! I can't wait for you guys to see the videos coming up in 2020! :)
Could you make a video or answer what's the biggest difference between working inhouse and at a law firm???
Hey Ty'Anna Noel! This is a great idea for a video and one I definitely have on the list! I've never worked in-house before but I have some good friends who have (and currently do), so my idea is to do a comparison video with them! I'll keep you posted!! :)
Miami!! I saw a litigator job and it says $200 an hour x times 2000 per year.....? LAW SCHOOL I COME I'M GOING TO CONQUER THE HELL OUT OF IT!!!
I love your channel! I’ve always been interested in public interest and have never heard great things about biglaw... stress, work life balance, etc., but your channel actually leaves me feeling more optimistic. I’m currently trying to choose between several options for law school: a few options which I think would present great opportunities but are more expensive, versus a full ride option at a school ranked about 30ish. I am keeping my options open for now but if I went to one of the more expensive schools I would consider biglaw to repay some of the debt right after graduating. Anyway, thanks for all of the insight, it’s super helpful and informative!
My pleasure!! I'm so glad the videos are helpful!! It sounds like you have great options in front of you! In case you're looking for some unsolicited advice, I would think about: (1) Where would you like to live and practice law in 3 years? A T14 school will give you national reach and a more regional school will primarily make you competitive for jobs in that city/state (which is totally fine if you know that's where you'd like to begin your career!); and (2) the low-to-no law school debt factor is HUGE because it will give you the freedom to pursue the career you want right off the bat and give you flexibility in developing your career path down the road as well. If you're considering a T14 school at full or close to full price, it's true that the prestige, name recognition, and connections can help you get positions at more high-profile law firms, govt positions, and even non-profits, I would just say to be realistic about the steps you would need to take to pay off that debt as soon as possible (which it definitely sounds like you are) and think through what you would like to do with your law degree once you're in the black, and whether you would need a T14 law degree to ultimately do that thing.
Angela Vorpahl this is super helpful and reaffirms a lot of my intuitions! Thanks very much again :)
You are the prettiest ❤️ lawyer I have ever seen .
She is hot lol
As a rising 3L NYC law student, went through various videos of yours just now, and if you ever want to connect, I’d love to chat about your prior work in the city!
Hi! Sure thing! Send me a DM on Instagram with any questions you have and I can send you an audio back!
People say attorneys make alot of money but when you average the hours, stress and take home work it's minimum wage or worse at law firms.
Do you not get bored if you work 11 to 12 hours a day. I mean yeah the pay is good but I feel like there is no social life when you work from 8am to 8pm
Hi, Chloe! It's definitely true that working 11-12 hours a day can be tiring, but if the work is interesting, engaging, and challenging it can actually be a really positive experience. I once heard someone say that the two most fulfilling weeks in their life was one week laying on a beach reading books and drinking piña coladas, and the other was a week when they worked 110 hours and developed and finished a project that was super meaningful to them.
I think that as a general rule human beings get a lot of pleasure out of hard work and being productive, provided that hard work is going towards building something they care about. So with respect to working in a law firm, it can be exciting and motivating to work in a fast-paced environment where you're building a career you care about and becoming an expert in a field that matters to you, and it can feel like the days fly by because you have the weeks and months planned out with substantive projects and deadlines and goals. In a similar way, you could be working 6-8 hours a day where the work is boring and menial and doesn't fulfill your potential, and leaves you feeling burnt-out, unhappy, and directionless.
In my experience, the TYPE of work you're doing is far more important to your quality of life than the number of hours you're putting in each day. It's true that at larger firms you tend to get a larger helping of the boring and menial the first few years, but the hope is that you find a firm where you start getting substantive projects as soon as possible, start playing a productive role on your teams, and start gaining ownership over parts of the case or deal. When that started to happen for me is when I personally started to feel alive and productive and spent longer hours at the office on my own to make sure whatever project or brief I was working on was excellent because I had ownership over it and it was mine and I cared about it.
I hope this answers your question :)
Hi Angela, I am a 3L and your videos are very helpful!!!! Thank you!
Hey, Karenny!! Awesome!! I'm so glad the videos have been helpful! Let me know if there is anything in particular you'd like to see a video on that I haven't done yet! :)
Hi Angela - Thanks for this great video! As a lawyer myself, I’m glad to see fellow UA-camrs shedding light on the practice of law. Much needed. Keep up the great work 🙂
Thanks lady! I just checked out your youtube channel and it looks awesome! Just subscribed!!
@@AngelaVorpahl Thanks so much! I really appreciate the support!
@@TheBlackSuit1 My pleasure!!
I’ve always had a passion since I was a child to become a lawyer it’s always stuck I’ve never had a passion for anything else but I don’t want to become one of those people who doesn’t have time for family and friends do you have any advice?
Hi Sarah! I completely understand your concern about working like crazy as a lawyer, and it's definitely true that there are legal jobs out there that are incredibly time-consuming and demand a lot of hours. That being said, there are also 9am-5pm legal jobs out there as well. So at the end of the day it's completely your decision which career path you'd like to pursue.
From personal experience I will also say that working a high-demand job doesn't necessarily mean you'll be miserable or not feel like you have time for family and friends. If the work you're doing is fun and exciting and challenging, and you really enjoy being busy and feeling productive and being pushed to your limits, you can work a high-demand job, have a blast doing it, and value the time you spend with family and friends even more. The lawyers that tend to burn out don't usually get there based solely on the hours, but more because the work they're doing doesn't excite them anymore. When the work you're doing lights you up or pushes your potential, it can be an awesome experience and make you feel incredibly fulfilled.
So my recommendation for you would be to not discount a legal career at this early stage only because of the hours that some lawyers work. You can absolutely craft a professional life that reflects your goals and priorities, and it doesn't have to look like any certain stereotype at all :)
Angela
Yes ..dont do law
@@AngelaVorpahl Do you have any recommendations on the types of law that don't require unreasonable hours and no social life?
@@Bookwasbetter So this is definitely the million dollar question! But I do have some thoughts. Working in a nonprofit or government agency role is pretty much universally going to be far fewer hours than working in a private law firm. The tradeoff of course is that you generally make a much higher salary in private practice than in the public sector. A possible balance of earning potential and fewer hours can sometimes be found in a small-to-midsize law firm where you could be making $65,000 to $85,000 per year and billing FAR fewer hours than biglaw associates. Another position around this same salary point is a corporate in-house counsel position (i.e. a lawyer who works internally at a company in their legal department). This is widely believed to be a "unicorn" position in that you're making a really solid income without having to bill hours like in private practice, but in-house counsel will assure you that it's still a demanding job just in a different way. My plan is to create a video series giving you guys a more indepth look into the different positions so that you can get greater clarity around the type of law you'd like to pursue, both in terms of substance and lifestyle!
I worked for a 150 lawyer litigation firm in the northeast for 7 years. anybody who has really been in the trenches Knows that it’s not the time you actually spend, it’s the amount you can get away with billing for. The partners say “they cut our bills down, we puff them up.” That’s the game. If anybody tells you otherwise they’ve Naive and have never really been in the game. I billed 2700 hours one year, so did the other attorneys in my practice group. You really think we were actually working that entire time? Wake up people
What was your social life like during this? Single, in a relationship, starting a family etc? Just wondering feel free to keep it private if you’d like
I was single and then in a relationship, but I didn't have kids. Associates with kids definitely had to get resourceful and creative with their schedules -- many of them would go home around 7pm or so to put their kids to bed and then log on to their laptops for another 2-3 hours at night to finish up work for the day.
Are you thinking of going into law school in the future?
Awesome info - thank you!
Yay!! I'm so glad!!
They work all the time. All. The. Time. It’s actually fun.
Haha I'm glad you think so too!! I actually really enjoyed my time in BigLaw because I liked being busy all the time and always knowing what I had in the works for the upcoming weeks, months, and year. There were times when it was too much for sure, but after a big push there always tends to be a slow down, so it was a nice ebb and flow :)
Angela Vorpahl hi I’m panicking...looking at finishing law school with over $200k in debt....sounds like a bonehead decision to come out making MAYBE $100k........also, Professors joke about their debt all the time. Should I just stop digging myself into a hole?
@@thomaslibbey5694 Are you looking at heading into law school and trying to make the decision whether to apply/attend, or are you already in law school trying to decide whether you should finish?
Love your videos! Could you do a video on in-house vs firm? A billing comparison of the two.
There are no billable hours when you work in in-house because your only "client" is the company you're working for (as opposed to a law firm lawyer who has lots of individual clients on separate matters). That being said, I do have a comparison video of law firm life vs. in-house life on the short list so stay tuned!
I have a family friend that’s a law firm partner making a ton of money, in the millions. It makes me curious that are law firm partner paid in lump sum at the end of the year or paid in weekly, bi-weekly or monthly manner?
Hi Arbaz! I actually have a video coming out on this exact topic in a bit! :) The short answer is that if s/he is a non-equity partner (meaning he does not own part of the law firm) then he'll be paid a salary just like an associate would (usually every 2 weeks depending on the law firm's pay period). If s/he is an equity partner then they will be paid a percentage of the profits (usually based on a point system devised by the law firm to determine each equity partner's "contributions" that year). As far as if they get that amount in a lump sum at the end of the year or are paid the amount out over the following year according to the usual pay period (e.g. every 2 weeks in typical "salary" fashion) I'm actually not sure, but I would imagine something closer to the latter -- perhaps monthly or quarterly installments. Good question!
You’re the best. Can’t wait for the video. 😄
I was searching UA-cam for "why lawyers work so many hours"? I understand you had many cases, but doesn't a case ever get to the point where more work won't change the final product? What makes legal work accumulate so many hours to get the work done?
In so many other fields, high cost work that takes long hours is a job screaming out for automation of some kind.
In any case, thanks for making this amazing video! 🙂
Hi Daryl! I'm so glad the video was helpful! It's an interesting point you bring up because one of the most time-consuming activities for a junior associate (in litigation specifically) is document review, which requires the review of hundreds of thousands of documents before they can be produced to the opposing side. Law firms largely delegate that work to first and second year associates, but are beginning to outsource more and more of it to e-discovery services. This is just one example of course, but one of the reasons this can't be automated is that every document must be checked by an attorney to determine if it's privileged or not. Maybe at some point in the future a program will be advanced enough that judges will start allowing this step to be automated, but that is likely very far out in the future.
The other thing that keeps the hours long is that every case or deal has so many moving parts, and both sides have opposing interests, and so it's a constant back-and-forth to solve problems, strategically file motions, and work with other side to come to a conclusion.
So the thing that ultimately stops work product from being worked on indefinitely is usually court-ordered deadlines :)
Is law school something you're interested in pursuing?
@@AngelaVorpahl Thanks for the thoughtful response.
Law school sounds interesting, but that ship has sailed for me. Several years back I decided I wanted to be a technology worker. I do IT consulting and support in the datacenter space. Watching new things get automated is something I see happening as the years progress, hence why I had an eye to see how it might apply to the legal profession. From banks, to federal agencies, to universities, I see many customers who are looking for opportunities to automate as much as they can. All of our jobs will encounter this!
I see the double edge sword of automation though. Employers think that they can automate things and hire less competent workers who get paid less. The experienced staff gets laid off cause their pay is higher. The problems happen when the automation process breaks. Imagine 9th graders who only learned math with calculators, then one day the calculator stops working, but they need to do long division. It can cause headaches. In the long term though, automation techniques will only become more reliable.
Anyway, I appreciate your fascinating insights!
great info! but if you're billing 2k hours a year, you literally don't have time to attend weddings, especially if all your friends are getting married in that year. lol
Hi! I know it can feel like that sometimes, but I promise you it's doable to bill 2,000+ hours per year and still have a life away from the office! The key is to have a steady flow of work so that you can start billing as soon as you walk into the office and don't burn any office hours seeking out or waiting on work -- since those are hours you can't bill. I billed 2300-2500 hours every year in private practice and I was still able to prioritize important life events like weddings and time with my family and friends! Law firm life is definitely busy, but it's definitely possible to make time to do the things that are important to you, especially the more senior you become at the firm! :)
Loved the video, can you do an example of what 2,000 billable hours looks like? My firm has a range of 1800-2000 requirement and I'd love to get a general idea of what that looks like. The practice is litigation. Thanks!
Hey! I'm guessing you're asking about what a typical day looks like when you're billing 2,000 hours a year? If that's the case, I actually made a video to do a deep dive into the day in the life of a biglaw associate to give you guys an idea of what's involved and what that looks like! Here's the link: ua-cam.com/video/4Ew0OxG3qlg/v-deo.html Feel free to let me know if you have any follow-up questions :)
@@AngelaVorpahl Hi Angela, that video definitely helped. I was looking into figuring out what the numbers you used would look like (2200 per year = 11 hrs per day/ 5 days per week/ 1 Saturday per month/ 50 weeks) if only needing 2000 instead? I hope this makes sense.
Also if you don't mind, to reach 2200 on average how many hours did you work on the 1 Saturday per month? Was it 11 hours as well?
@@KP-uz3nk So it's not going to be an exact science, and a lot of how many hours you'll have to be in the office will depend on how quickly you can get work. Because if you there is a lot of downtime between projects those are hours that you can't bill but still need to be in the office. So, for example, in the "Day in the Life of a BigLaw Associate," Marisa worked about the same hours I did even though she only had to bill 2000 hours per year (instead of 2400 hours per year) just because of the start-and-stop nature of the work.
And I definitely have friends that were at work 11 hours a day, 5 days a week, and worked on Saturdays and billed 2000 hours a year. For me, I usually worked at least 4.5 hours on a Saturday if I was "normal busy," but could work up to 7.5 to 10.5 both Saturday and Sunday when things were REALLY busy. Work will always ebb and flow, so it's impossible to say what a "normal" weekend will always look like, but hopefully that helps give you an idea!
Angela, I really appreciate all your videos and find them very useful and informative for the most part, however, I feel you might get more views if you also occasionally focus on the lighter, more humorous/fun side of lawyering. In my opinion, it would draw in more of the casual viewers that help videos go viral, rather than the super-elite niche of viewers who are either current or prospective law school students... :)
Hi Pascual! I appreciate your feedback so much, and I definitely think you have a good point. I've recently been experimenting with making a type of comedy-esque video (which I'm super nervous to post), but I think it will be a nice change from the purely informative/training-style videos I usually do. Thanks for the suggestion, and I'm definitely go to take it to heart and see how I can find ways to do this going forward :)
@@AngelaVorpahl thanks for being so open to the people who follow your channel. That just bodes well for your future. ;) You don't need to be funny to get views (though it really does help), you just need a topic that more people than your current followers can really relate to. :) Something as simple as "How do lawyers really have fun?" might be interesting, even if you use your normal, informative style of delivery. ;)
@@pascualgarciaiv1318 Definitely! I share a lot of personal and light content on Instagram, but I could for sure apply that here as well! :)
@@AngelaVorpahl thank you... please do. :)
There is no lighter more humorous part of law
So interesting listening to your videos. I’m a junior banking lawyer from London and it’s great to hear a mid-level associate’s views. Could you let us know how you navigated law firm politics please?
Hi, narusku4! So the topic of "law firm politics" is generally pretty nuanced and specific to each office, but if you're referring to how to build a good reputation for yourself within the law firm, I made a video on that that you might find helpful: ua-cam.com/video/pKCd0lpDmwQ/v-deo.html! With respect to navigating differences in partner personalities and work preferences, that is going to be very person-specific, but generally speaking if you're a hard worker, exceed their expectations, show enthusiasm for the job, and make an effort to brighten up the team dynamic, it's going to be hard for people not to love you and want to work with you!
Are lawyers paid on a hourly basis based on billed hours or do they have a fixed salary they will receive in a certain pay period?
The latter! Unless you're an equity partner (i.e. a part-owner of a law firm), you will be paid a yearly salary which pretty much all law firms pay on a bimonthly pay cycle (i.e. every 2 weeks).
Plus the partners you work for may cut your billable hours, if they think you spent too much time on a task.
That's true and can definitely happen, especially when you're a brand new associate and everything takes you SO much longer than you think it's going to. It depends on the law firm, but some will still give you "credit" for those billable hours even if they don't wind up actually billing them to the client.
@@AngelaVorpahl by the way, thank you for putting up so many informative videos. I'm glad to discover your channel. I practice in North Carolina; my ex-husband practiced big law and is now a law professor. How do you find time to make such great, professional-looking videos while also working for a big law firm?
@@aalegalfocus I'm so glad to hear the videos resonate with you!! And I totally don't practice in biglaw anymore, I didn't start making videos until I left private practice :)
@@AngelaVorpahl oh, that makes sense. Working in biglaw typically means not having time for anything other than work. Hope you're enjoying what you are doing now!
@@aalegalfocus So true, and that's definitely how it was for me too :) I am! These videos have changed my life ❤
What do you think about the impact of artificial intelligence on the legal profession?
So could you answer this for me? Let's say I want to work closer to the 40-50hrs/week. Are there jobs like that out there, or is it pretty much, work your a** off and you'll get a good position and make the good salary?
Hi, Nikolos! Yes, there definitely are :) If you're looking to work a more traditional 40-50 hours/week schedule I would focus your search on non-profits, government agencies, and in-house positions at smaller corporations. Smaller law firms will also get you closer to those numbers. You'll be making a more moderate salary than you would be at a larger or mid-size law firm, but to be honest that's the trade-off that TONS of lawyers choose to make after working a few years at a law firm to save up money and pay off some of their student loan debt.
So do law firms typically take into account the type of practice you perform when looking at realistic billable hours? (In terms of say Litigation vs corporate).
Not really no, all associates regardless of practice group have the same billable hour requirements. That being said, if you work in a practice group that had a slow year firm-wide, the partners will of course understand if your billables are lower than usual, but if that goes on for too long they may have you start working on matters in other practice groups to get your billables back up.
Do lawyers work all their billable hours at an office, or do they take some work home?
It will definitely depend on the policies of the office, but in pretty much every law firm office, you'll be working some from home, whether that's a few hours at night or on the weekends. I tried to get as much done at the office during the week so I could come home and relax, but without a doubt there will be times where you'll have to log back onto your laptop for a few hours at night and/or on the weekends :)
@@AngelaVorpahl thank you!
@@scarletmoon9256 My pleasure!
I just made a similar video and was looking to see other videos, your video is very informative of how much lawyers work in the US. Even though I am an English Lawyer, I enjoyed this and other videos.
I'm so glad to hear it! I love seeing other lawyers out there shedding more light and information about the legal industry!! :)
Super helpful! Took a load off !
I'm so glad you enjoyed it! Is law school something coming up for you? :)
@@AngelaVorpahl no love! I’m in a firm. First-year associate! I have to do what you did...billing 200 monthly!
@@sorayawatkins2112 Oh nice! How has the first year been going so far? :)
@@AngelaVorpahl hunnnyyyy. I started 3/1! And I am tired! When did you wake up and when did you call it a night ?
@Soraya Watkins Haha I hear you. The truth is those first few months are exhausting. We're working SO much longer hours than we're used to and every project is the FIRST time we've ever done it so the learning curve is massive and everything takes forever to figure out and do. After a few months your body starts adjusting and getting used to the longer hours and you're able to go harder for longer without even realizing it. It's kind of like endurance training for a sport, just mental training in this case. Plus, the longer you work the more you'll eventually start to get repeat projects where you know what the heck you're doing and it will be slightly easier and faster each time you do it.
Our office was a late-start office so I usually got into the office around 10am and left around 8pm/9pm on a "normal busy" day. If something was due or I got caught in a case research rabbit hole, it could be midnight or 2am before I left, but that probably happened more like 1/3 of the time.
How are your hours looking so far? :)
lawyer here. subscribed.
Awesme! Happy to have you! I run a free FB group made up of law students and other young lawyers and I'm in there all the time answering questions and supporting you guys any way I can :) Would you like the link to join?
@@AngelaVorpahl i dunno if 15 years in of practice i can still be grouped with "young lawyers." keep it up. I am currently editing and shooting my law partners brand new youtube channel "trials and errors" keep up the good work!
@@arkansastube1 Haha good call. And very cool! I just found it and subscribed!!
Lawyers charges their client whatever rate they like especially they are self employed
Yes that true
What's the average remuneration. we get in USA as a corporate lawyer?
Hi Komal, while the highest paid entry-level associate positions start at $190,000 in biglaw firms, the biggest chunk of new law school graduates (50%) start out making $45,000 to $75,000. Is law school something you're considering? :)
Hey Angela,
Quick question: So I know that attorneys, when they are working hours that are billable, are doing work that’s meant for the client.
My question is, what exactly do you do as an attorney that causes you to work so many hours? I’ve always assumed that attorneys draft documents and talk to clients. What else do attorneys do?
Hey, Garrick! There are a ton of different legal practice groups that focus on different areas of the law, but to simplify it there are two main "umbrella" types of law -- litigation and corporate law. I'll summarize it below, but I've also made a video on the difference between litigation and corporate law if you want to check it out(!): ua-cam.com/video/MnjX1nByoOc/v-deo.html.
LITIGATION
If you're a litigator, you'll be spending your time bringing lawsuits and/or defending against lawsuits. The work in this field starts with the pre-suit evaluation and investigation to determine if there is even a claim to bring (e.g. talking with clients, witnesses, involved parties, reviewing documents, researching causes of action, defenses, etc.). Then if you decide to bring the lawsuit, the first main stage after drafting and filing the complaint is discovery (requesting and reviewing documents to both produce and identify from the other side the most relevant evidence in the case, preparing/defending depositions of witnesses, and developing expert reports for any experts you'll use in the case). This stage is the longest because discovery involves a TON of back and forth between the attorney teams over what documents/depositions are relevant, privileged, accessible, etc. Also in this stage you generally have a LOT of motion practice -- i.e. researching/drafting/defending against/responding to motions to dismiss, change venue, compel discovery, quash depositions, strike expert reports, and then dispositive motions for summary judgment to rule on part (or all) of the case as a matter of law.
Once you get through discovery and motion practice, you'll advance to the pretrial stage where you will start all of your pre-trial work of developing exhibit lists, witness lists, depositions designations, jury instructions, verdict forms, supplemental expert reports (if applicable), opening statements, and direct and cross examination of witnesses. This is a HUGE amount of work, and generally takes place in a relatively short period of time.
Then if the parties don't reach a settlement agreement, you'll go to trial (either in front of a judge or a jury). Trials can last anywhere from a few days to a few weeks to months, depending on the subject matter and how many plaintiffs or defendants are involved. During trial, you're working 24/7, and it's an incredibly intense (but also thrilling) thinking-on-your-feet emotional and creative and strategic process.
CORPORATE LAW
Corporate lawyers generally work in the business of drafting and reviewing contracts between business entities for things like financing, loans, mergers, acquisitions, partnership agreements, shareholder agreements, etc. There is a LOT of document reviewal, strategy and logistical sessions, and back and forth with the client corporations and in-house counsel as the agreements are researched, negotiated, drafted, and ultimately signed.
So, in answer to your question, yes there is a lot of reviewing of documents and talking to clients as the cases and deals move forward, but there are a thousand smaller day-to-day steps that are happening as well. And keep in mind that most lawyers are not working a single case -- they could be working anywhere from 2 to 10 to 20 cases depending on the type of law they're practicing and the size of the case(s).
I hope this helps!!
Angela
The attorney I am looking for would set up the articles of incorporation, protect intellectual property, assist in real estate acquisitions, and play an active role in the further development of the company. The work load will never demand more than part time hours, and the simplicity and integrity of the company positively diminish stress levels. Growth is not allowed to increase stress; we simply hire more people.
Curious... Does this sound interesting to anyone?
Also... What salary would someone want for this job?
Thanking all in advance for any advice or direction they can give me!
Sometimes attorneys like to pad their billable hours lol
eg an attorney charges you for 8 hours of work, although he worked only 5 hours.
davewreslt This would rarely happen if ever
@@nickzee1637 it sure does happen. To me. Then I'm like what, why. He reduced the billing
If you’re billing 2200 hours as an associate, are we looking at 210k a year salary at a top 10 firm?
Yep! And that would be an entry-level salary for a first year associate. And it's defintely not just top 10 firms, it would likely be at least the top 200 law firms as well as boutique law firms that pay those same market rate salaries.
I showed the 3200 billable hours stat to my mom who is an accountant and her jaw dropped.
Haha yeah, 3200 billable hours in a year is CRAZY high.
👉🏻 Download the FREE GUIDE: “Best Questions to Ask in Law Firm Interviews": launch.angelavorpahl.com/best-questions-to-ask-visit
Have more questions about billable hours, legal jobs, or the life of lawyer? Let me know in the comments below!!! :)
Hey Angela - love these videos. Super helpful as a future law student.
I think a good idea for a video would be a day in the life of a litigator. Something like going through a typical week of what you did from the moment you walked into the office until when you stopped working.
Thanks!!
@@markiased6848 I love this idea!! I made a video similar to this about a day in the life of biglaw where we talk about a typical day as a litigation associate and a corporate law associate (ua-cam.com/video/4Ew0OxG3qlg/v-deo.html), but I could also go more indepth and give you guys an hour by hour breakdown of my day!
With all honesty, on average, what percentage of billable hours are actually legitimate vs padded on? A close friend of mine is an associate at a mid sized law firm in NYC and she says it's about 60/40.
Hi, Rob! It depends what you mean by "padded on." When they're just starting out, it's not unusual for junior associates to take longer to complete projects than a partner believes a client may be willing to pay, so the partner may cut out some of the associate's hours before sending the bill to the client (however, this shouldn't reduce the associate's internal billable hour count for law firm tracking purposes). If you're asking if lawyers straight up report hours that they're not working as billable hours, I'm sure it happens but I personally don't know of anyone who did that. As you may expect, that's crazy unethical and should not be taken as an industry standard or practice. The lawyers I know and work with take their jobs and their reputations very seriously, and padding hours is a huge deal that should not be taken lightly or ever practiced.
Angela Vorpahl
Thanks for your reply, but my friend claims that it’s fairly common, at least in her company, that partners regularly “adjust” billable hours to clients, and only stop or reduce the practice only when specific clients complain.
It seems that partners are even bonused in these “adjusted” hours since they’re pure profit.
Without any real accountability, it’s no wonder it’s an industry wide issue.
@@RobertLeBlancPhoto How crazy, I actually have never heard about that until now. As a partner, I don't know how you would ever recover your accountability if a client caught you doing that, especially now when referrals are so heavily based on reputation. I agree, I hope it self-corrects soon!
Working as a lawyer is truly awful. I watch this video and it makes me feel sick. (I‘m a Litigation Lawyer in the UK).
Oh no! I'm so sorry you feel that way. Is the worst part the day-to-day work, the people you work with (and for), the hours, or all of it?
Angela Vorpahl I’m lucky that I got out a big city firm and into a small practice (5 of us) because the people in the city are truly dreadful people and the work load is too much. Even though things are a lot better in the small firm, i still hate dealing with court deadlines and uncooperative clients (especially in personal injury cases).
@@AlphaToEpsilon Oh man, I'm so sorry to hear that. Have you thought about trying a non-legal job still related to the industry, like legal marketing, legal recruiting, or law firm management, or leaving the industry altogether?
I’m an entry level IT Security Analyst making over 90k a year with just 2 years experience out of college and currently interviewing for a job with a pay range of 119-178k and another with a base salary of 112k. Guess I’m curious what other jobs are comparable in terms of salary. I once considered going down the law path.
Hi Josh! That pay range is VERY high, even in the legal industry with 2 years of experience. To make similar money (in the $100,000 to $150,000 range) you're generally looking at working at a midsized or boutique law firm or working in-house at a larger company. The main position that would make more than that is working in biglaw, which right now has starting salaries around $180,000 to $190,000 plus bonus.
I am new on there's
Hi, do you have any advice for international lawyers who emigrate to the United States or Canada to practice? In my case I plan to emigrate to Canada to study the JD/MBA program offered by the University of Ottawa. Greetings and thanks for your videos.
Hi! I don't have experience with the Canadian legal system or legal industry, but I am working on making a video for international law students and lawyers looking to work in the U.S., so stay tuned for that!
@@AngelaVorpahl Excellent. I will watch your video.
Do lawyers work Christmas Day?
They definitely can! Of course we all try to avoid doing so whenever possible, but if there's a client matter emergency that pops up, or a big brief due or expert report due or trial coming up, sometimes it's unavoidable.
Can we get videos on how to get into law school as well ?
Hi, Aakash! That's a great video topic idea, I'll look into making that one in the future! :)
why are Lawyers in UA-cam do they hate the law that they want to change careers
What is billable hours?
Billable hours are the hours that you can actually "bill" (or "charge") to a client. Meaning, not just the hours you're physically in the office but the hours you're actually working on a legal matter that the law firm can recoup payment for (from the client).
The pdf you linked in the description doesn't work anymore. =( Is there another way to look at it? I was thinking of switching from government to private practice and wanted to get a feel of the schedule.
Wow! were you charging billable hours when you made this video? I ask because it could have been 2 minutes.
what happens if you don’t meet your billable hour requirement?
(this is super helpful by the way!)
I'm so glad to hear it was helpful! In terms of the "consequences" of not making billable hours, every law firm handles it a bit differently. In some law firms, meeting the minimum billable hour requirement (e.g. 2000 billable hours) is a requisite for getting the highest bonus. If you bill less than 2000 hours (say, between 1900 and 1999), then you may receive a lower tier bonus (or no bonus at all). In other firms, they don't draw a super hard line with bonuses, and as long as you're "close" to hitting billables (say, 1900-2000), you'll get the bonus. If you're significantly below the billable hour requirements (say, 1900 or less) it will likely be brought up in your end-of-year evaluation. The partner conducting the evaulation will likely ask things about why your billables were low -- e.g. did you have trouble finding work? were the matters you were assigned not very busy? did you have a personal issue that took you away from a full workload? Generally speaking, these types of conversations can happen earlier than end-of-year, that is, if you're not hitting your monthly billable hours then the managing partner may ask you these questions at the end of the month or end of the quarter. So there's definitely both incentive (carrot) and pressure (stick) to hit your billables. Work definitely ebbs and flows, so sometimes you'll be slower and sometimes you'll be crazy busy. In my experience, it's actually MORE stressful to be slow because you still have to be in the office (even if you don't have billable work) and you know that you'll have to make up those billable hours with a busier period at some point in the future. So I very much prefer being "overly" busy than "not busy enough." And, to your question," if you consistently under-bill and you don't make any effort to find work to meet those billable hours and you've been talked to several times, there could be a conversation about letting you go. But if you're a hard worker and you're seeking out work, it rarely gets to the point of being fired for underbilling (particularly if, through no fault of your own, the practice group is slow or the economy overall is slow).
I hope that helps! Are you interested in pursuing a law degree? :)
Great video, I had a question about small and medium sized law firms, I was wondering how the hours worked there or in other types of law practice like tax law or trusts/estates compares to the hours mentioned in your video, and maybe if there is a better work/life balance found there compared to in larger firms? Thank you!
Hey, Adam! Yes, smaller firms (under 50 lawyers) generally have much lower billable hour requirements, usually hovering around 1600-1800 per year. That will also generally translate into a much more predictable work schedule, being able to postpone answering emails until the following work day, and actually turning off your phone for holidays and vacations. Trusts and estates are generally practiced by smaller firms, so that's a good focus if you're looking for that lifestyle. Tax law will depend on the size of the firm (and by extension the size of the client), but tax is a great area to get into because those skills are marketable for big and small shops :)
@@AngelaVorpahl Thank you so much! I also forgot to ask, how does the pay typically compare between sizes of firms?
@@bf2630 So glad you asked! I'm actually doing a video on this topic coming out soon so stay tuned!!
Great content, so much truth! 👏
Thanks!! The daily work breakdown is definitely something I didn't know until I actually started working!
I know what billable hours are. You guys got to bill those hours to keep your jobs.
Hey hi Angela,
I am completing my LLB from India and planning to do Masters from US or Canada...Can you guide that how we can start practice in US.
Love from India❤️🤗
Hi Namrata! I'm working on a vide for international lawyers and law students looking to get their LLM in the U.S. so stay tuned!!
@@AngelaVorpahl thank you ❤️yup we are waiting 😊
@@namratapatil6876 😍😍😍
Can you make a video about how much a lawyer gat paid per mounth
Hi, Crazy Llama! I'm actually working on that exact video right now! A comparison of a monthly income and budget when I worked as a federal judicial clerk in Dallas, TX and when I worked as a law firm associate in NYC! Stay tuned!! :)
So, solo practice it is.
That's definitely an option! But there are definitely other types of law and legal sectors where you don't have to bill 2000-2200 hours a year. Positions in government, public interest, and some in-house roles will give you more of a 9am-6pm / 9am-7pm lifestyle, with nights and weekends much less frequently. Are you thinking of becoming a lawyer? :)
This will probably vary from firm to firm, but what happens if someone’s time gets away from them due to health reasons? As in, if you have to take time off for doctors, you’re not getting those hours back, so you couldn’t reach the hour quota.
Not meeting billable hour "goals" is common, and it can happen for a lot of reasons -- from personal difficulties to there simply not being enough work to go around. Most firms are very reasonable when it comes to associates not meeting their billable hour requirements if it's for reasons outside of their control (like an extended illness). Some firms may not give associates the higher level bonus if they don't hit a preset billable hour goal for the year, but other firms will actually give all of the associates in the same class year the same bonus regardless of hours billed. You only start getting into hot water if you consistently don't meet your billable hour requirements and you're not making an attempt to find work or join teams in order to do so. As far as just going to regular doctors' appointments, everyone has those so you can easily make up a few lost hour in a day on another day or over the weekend.
Do Law firm have cut to your lawyers fee?
Sounds tough but i still want to be a lawyer. The hours might be long but when you compare that to a surgeon its nothing lol
Hey, Kyle! Totally! Go for it!! The hours can be long, but the work can be really exciting and challenging and push you to your potential, which are the reasons I love it :)
Well, the job market and pay is totally different too. Good luck!
God created this universe with his power n thought n inscribed the ten commandments to abide by. Salute to all the good lawyers for upkeep of the law n order n bringing in justice by fight n flag the justice for the people.
How does being a slow worker or a very fast one work with billable hours? If youre a slow worker should you bill longer than average hours for a given work
Hi Menelik, so the short answer is to always bill the number of hours that you actually spend on a project. As a junior associate it's going to naturally take you longer to complete projects and the partners know that. In most law firms they will still give you "credit" for billing the hours, and then if the partner on the project feels like the project should have taken fewer hours then he/she can bill the client for fewer hours. But again, that shouldn't affect the number of hours you get credit for billing in terms of your monthly or yearly billable hours.
At a higher level, there is definitely an industry-wide recognition that billable hours can (and probably do) reward a certain level of inefficiency, not so much on the part of the lawyers themselves but on the part of law firms' unwillingness to adopt tech solutions that could arguably speed up the work process. But as of yet, law firms have consistently been unwilling to change their billing practices and the billable hour is still the predominant way of tracking work and billing clients in the U.S.
@@AngelaVorpahlues, that makes sense. May be there should be some sort of catalogue on how long a given legal work ought to take.
@@meneliksolomon7984 Oh man, I wish! Unfortunately there's nothing so clear cut as that (but that would make our lives a ton easier). Usually a partner will tell you when he/she wants the project by, but in my experience they ALWAYS tell you it's going to take you less time than it actually does, so you never really get a good handle on how long projects take until you actually dig in and start working on one :)
2400????? crazy.
Yeah it was definitely intense, but I was at a time in my life where work was my biggest focus and so I loved feeling busy and productive and learning all the things :)
🤪wow!
Haha I know, it's a ton. But if you're into working in a fast-paced environment and get excited about learning a lot in a short amount of time, it can be really fun!
... and!..... Eleven-hours of work?!.... What would I need exactly?!....A "multi-purpose Robot"?!.....who can be a small-kitchen, (portable)...,a friend (regardless of gender)!..., a mentor without ego..., a roommate (Vegetarian)...and honest care taker,...etc....but can a single entity (human-oidically)/robotically... help me?!....In the sense!...,(N. O.)!...?!...☕👌😐📖📚
Yeah no thanks.
slaving away my soul... =(
Depends on how greedy they are....
Most billable hours are for useless things that can't be justified.