"If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell." -Carl Sandburg
Best version of this I heard was "If facts are against you, pound the law. If the law is against you, pound the facts. If both are against you, pound the table." Gym Jordan and Matt "He's totally my son, guys" Gaetz are perfect examples of "Pound the Table Politicking".
@@LisaBeergutHolst grow up.. The 2 party system is broken... The right used to ignore facts reality and well pound the table abusing the law... Nowadays it is the left...
I've found the best response to "What about-ism" is to respond "We can get to that after you answer my question. Get them to stick to the point they're trying to avoid.
@@chrismullaney8369 "that doesn't make Trump any better. Are you going to defend him? Or say he's just as bad as the former President you clearly dislike?"
@@ogolthorp am I going to defend the guy I called a pig? Why would you ask such a stupid question? I dislike both of them. Why are you struggling with this concept? If you still struggle understanding, let me ask you: do you prefer Hitler or Stalin? I only ask to demonstrate how easy it is to dislike two political leaders and for none of the other reasons I'm sure you're trying to conjure.
i think the smartest people are those who can recognize a side that makes the most logical sense regardless of how their emotions react to it. most people don't fall into that category
Trump Supporters 4 years ago: "I like him because he's honest and unapologetic. He doesn't pussy-foot around or talk in code, he says what's on his mind." Trump supporters every day since then: "WHAT HE MEANT WAS-"
Trump supporters 4 years ago: "fuck your feelings snowflake, you lost a fair and legitimate election. He is your president!" Trump supporters today: "voter fraud!! The election was stolen!! The election was not legitimate because it was rigged!! Biden is not my president!"
@@KandiKontent aw that’s cute, you think those things are comparable. Hey look guys, this kid is literally currently doing exactly what this video said the alt right’s shitty, practically fraudulent debating methods are!!! We found the 4-Chan shirt wearing kid from the video!
The response to that insistence is now "I answered your question," before quickly pointing to the next reporter from a more favorable source, like Breitbart, OAN, or some other crackpot site with a reporter pass. It's the "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" argument from the Wizard of Oz. But if Toto keeps tugging at that curtain, the whole thing is exposed for the sham that it was the whole time.
@Aru Gula Mark Twain isn't funny to those who can't understand his humor. Okay so right off the bat I have to say that I usually try to find the high road instead of the usual internet burn that halts productive conversation. But I couldn't resist. I happen to think Mark Twain is one of the greatest writers of all time let alone one of the greatest American writers. And I also think that he's genuinely very funny. But I don't have any issue with you. Go in peace brother. ... Or sister I guess. Damn internet anonymity.
"Meet me in the middle" says the dishonest man. You take a step towards them and they take a step back. "Meet me in the middle" says the dishonest man.
@@davidzachmeyer1957 It's because they have nothing to lose. The Alt-Rights prime audience is insecure males who find everyone but themselves accountable for their personal failures.
"There are few better ways to get Democrats talking about what you want them to talk about than to defend your position badly" Transphobe: Pronouns are dumb. Everyone: What, you never learned grammar? And now we're talking about first grade grammar, instead of the fact that deliberately misgendering someone is a form of hate speech. Damn, I keep coming back to these videos. Such a good series.
I’ll give another example. Me: Man that attempted insurrection on the capital was fucked up. All those Trump supporters lost their minds. Them: You really think that’s what happened? It was antifa in disguise and besides, look how much damage BLM has done but the media isn’t crying about that! Analysis: I said something factually true. You can prove they were Trump supporters because of the KAGA & MAGA apparel, flags, etc. But they’ve shifted the conversation. Sure I cannot prove 100% it wasn’t antifa, but that’s the point. The argument shifted into an un winnable one, and they took an accusatory tone and posture which sets me up to play Defense on an argument they’ve shifted the parameters to.
Or gum up their works by giving intentionally unproductive answer: Transphobe: Pronouns are dumb. Response: Maybe you just suck. Transphobe: That's an ad homonym attack. That's a fallacy. Response: I guess it was. But you haven't defended my point that you suck, so I'll take it as you conceding that you do. The alt-right and the right in general has been getting away with this kind of mischief for a decade. Throw it right back in their faces. And if they take the receipts back to their hovel to show how intolerant the left is, they'll still have to present transcripts of them getting told how much they suck.
@@EasilyBoredGamer Yeah, let's get some more advanced dunks started. *English* pronouns are dumb. Singular they is kinda awkward sometimes (that ain't a reason to misgender somebody, but yeah, sometimes it's awkward). Also, if you want some real advanced pronouns, Swedish has special pronouns for "the one guy" and "the other guy." So if you've ever found yourself saying "He told him X, but then he said Y... Uh, I mean Adam told Steve X, but then Steve said Y..." You can just say that in Swedish! It's perfectly clear who you mean!
I’m a former conservative and as a result I know all their talking points and debate styles and non sequiters, etc. and because of that I know what they’re trying to do AND NEVER let them change the subject or gish gallop me. We are talking about “X”. If they have a relevant side point that is germane to the topic at hand we can incorporate that. But when the subject is the cost of universal healthcare, no, I’m not entertaining your side quest of the 5 year survival rate of pancreatic cancer in the Netherlands.
"side quest" hehe I love how you phrased that. BTW congrats on escaping conservatism. I couldn't possibly imagine myself ever using that style of argumentation (i.e changing the subject to something completely irrelevant).
Yup. A reply to the "it's just locker room talk" is smth like "so you agree that sexual assault is bad." and boom, back on topic. They would be on the defense. They might do what aboutism, but if they compare him to someone else who is supposed to be leftist, you end up saying "so you disagree with that leftist candidate, but you ALSO disagree with the candidate you're defending? They're both bad then?" It worked several times to shut them down, or if they're on the fence, this helped force them admit that the person they're defending IS as bad as we all say he is, and in order to save their "i am a centrist" ego, they at the very least end up not getting radicalized.
Your hypothetical conservative is still 10x smarter than actual real life conservative. A real conservative would just say some shit like “why should I pay for your healthcare🤓”
it's actually a big misconception that the democrats are left. they're both rightwing. second thought breaks it down well: ua-cam.com/video/ULYWIDcUOY4/v-deo.html
I have PhD in political science. Until a year ago, when I left academia for reasons not worth going into here, I was a professor thereof. I love, love, love your videos on the alt-right. Just wanted you to know that some of us with credentials that probably shouldn't matter but do to lots of people think you're hitting the nail on the head.
Don't worry, most people wouldn't consider a PhD in political science to be significant. To the vast majority of people, that's like having a PhD in astrology or homeopathy. Just out of curiosity, did you predict Hillary was going to win?
What’s hilarious is how they say “she needs to lean in” and not “he needs to take responsibility for what he said.” The mental gymnastics of blaming women in the end will always astound me.
Remember, there is no mental gymnastics, there is no inconsistency. These “contradictory” arguments are perfectly consistent on the idea that women don’t deserve agency.
This is why (for now) I don't talk to my parents anymore. Logic has no weight against belief. This is basically a description of the Christian Right as well. Their Sundays at church have turned into mini-Trump rallies, and long story short: I can't even.
Welcome to the world of dealing with creationists. Been there, done that. Fun to beat the shit out of them intelleculally....but they simply don't care in the face of their belief. So, it's pointless.
@@DakotaSshow Yeah, totally different situation there, buddy. I hate to tell you this, but not all Trump supporters are very civil. I love my family, but let's just say I had to back off to keep loving them. If you do and say enough hateful things, people won't wanna be around you. I'm super glad it worked out for you and your family, who I assume may have had a more friendly approach when you listened.
He’s everything but alt right. He a thousand times said that he doesn’t care about the “browining of America” or generally race. Which is an unacceptable statement for the alt right.
@@tanyag5646 He's a gateway to the alt-right. Most people think race related ideas in the alt-right are rightfully stupid, but they can feel more inclined to give the lukewarm right figurehead Shapiro a chance (especially when he is presented in joke videos "owning dem ess jay dubyas"). People follow that pipeline and become indoctrinated as they are brainwashed slowly. No one starts at the extreme end of any spectrum. He isn't alt-right as far as we know publicly, but he is a useful tool (in every sense of the word) for the alt-right.
I spent an entire year extending every benefit of a doubt to an alt righter hoping he was just misinformed or confused. Ultimately I cut him off when I realized he just genuinely did not give a single **** about anyone but himself regardless of how he said he did. Just don't bother trying because you'll just be wasting your time and energy.
You aren't going to be able to cure a personaity disorder. Not sure that a psychiatrist or other medical professional can, either, so you're right - it's a waste of time & energy.
@@davidzachmeyer1957 love yall and all but this is a dangerously pessimistic puritan way to view politics. ik everybody wants to believe theyre always on the right side of history here but this is the last approach the left needs rn
And the worst part is, if you DO insist on the original topic and refuse to take the bait, the conversation just ends. They know EXACTLY what they're doing, and will quietly retreat(or loudly try to save face) once it becomes clear it isn't working.
@@ziwuriyeah.... I hate how calling orange guy a convicted felon is a lot less punchy when a ton of innocent people get the same label thanks to our garbage fire justice system
"this guy assaulted women" And now there's a civil lawsuit that held him responsible for that too. This channel's content ages like wine. And that's a bad thing.
Reading down, there's so many comments reiterating the same "he said 'they let you do it' so that's not rape" point while removing the "when you're a star" context that adds a very dangerous power balance to the interaction. Even if we ignore how those in powerful positions can be risky to say no to (and coerced consent or consent given under duress are still very questionable at best), and even if we decide to take a serial liar (who could also just very well be mistaken about how willing people are to be touched by him) at his word, there's been many actual accusations of rape and sexual assault, and other interactions that are sketchy at best (watching pageant contestants dressing, his wife's account of assault that she later clarified she wouldn't call rape even though by her account that's what it was). It's amusing seeing the video calling out this "control the conversation/changing the subject" argument style, and then seeing the comments filled with people nitpicking about soecific word choice and what Trump said instead of what he demonstrably did.
Your last point is all that matters. These people are commenting in the EXACT ways that are portrayed in the videos. There douche baggery can be mapped from their comment to the answers in the video. You don't even need to say words, just post time stamps, lol.
Yeah, I mean, at the root of all this is a desperate need of an increasingly entrenched right to justify its own existence despite the tide of reality rapidly dismantling its tangible connections to power: logic, creativity and morality. Instead of soul searching and learning fluidity with regards to one's place in the world, they've decided to throw out meaning entirely in some kind of postmodernist circling of the wagons. People would rather vainly attempt to mould life to their beliefs than readjust accordingly.
I figured this one out on my own after more Twitter arguments than are healthy for me. Now I just respond with "That is unrelated to the topic" and then they stop talking, which is probably far better for my mental health.
Wish I'd seen this comment before the comments about the comments this video received. Would have also been nice to read a comment about the video before reading several comments about the comments of the video.
But now you've commented on the comments that comment on the comments of this video, thus nesting a neverending loop of comments about comments, perpetuating that which you wanted to 'prepare' others for in the first place. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!
I think Kyle Kulinski of Secular talk did have a good point about debating some people on the right: use their own logic against them in support of leftist policy. You believe in small government, right? Let’s work together on reducing military spending then. If they disagree, they look like a hypocrite, and if they agree, you have won.
@@HELLO7657 There is that problem: If the government should provide as little as possible, then the military, if it is deemed a necessity, should be privatised. And private military corporations have not been good news so far.
The problem is, that sounds good, but it doesn't work. The same people who say "I need an assault rifle in case the government becomes a tyranny" aren't rushing to liberate concentration camps on the southern border. They're the loudest champions and defenders of the policy.
Nah, they just say that military spending is more important to education and it affects everyone so it’s not biased. They basically just have it as an exception
I'm a firm believer in weaponizing the far Rights rhetorical tactics against them. I've used these tricks myself, and it works frighteningly well. As crappy as their positions are, they are so easy to beat when you fight dirty and don't let them define the rules of the game
Ian said that this will only achieve short term goals, but ultimately isn’t worth it because it shows that truth and integrity don’t matter which will inevitably confirm the right’s worldview.
Hate to be a party pooper, but what did you realistically achieve with these beyond making yourself feel good for winning arguments? Like the right uses these tactics to deflect discussion because they are hiding their actual beliefs. I do not see how the left would benefit from adopting these.
@@Charlie-uz8vb my guy ive seen you in 3 replies now all with singular likes so theres no way in hell you came to a video abt dissecting argumentitive frameworks and then liked all your shitty roast replies every time
I got tricked into this by a group of alt right people on Twitter. It started with a conversation on the minimum wage and they quickly steered it to regulations, how government causes all costs to rise, Obamacare, and so on. Before I even realized it they had steered me so far off topic with falsehoods and bad arguments that I just gave up. This video describes in perfectly
Are you sure the reason why it went from minimum wage to costs rising is because they go hand in hand in effect; Boss raises wages of the workers-Boss needs to make more profit so he raises prices of product-inflation-bankruptsy of government-everyone loses.
@@andrewcarosi4600 but he doesn't. he LITERALLY says this on every video about right wing tactics. while i do disagree with him implying that the right mostly does this. you're kind of ignoring him here
This video is about a year old at this point, so most discussions have basically been completed. On the first one that I started looking at, the exact same thing that was talked about in the video played out to a T. It’s incredible how accurate this video really is.
Alt right fans are inflicted with something called "Dunning/Kruger effect". Arguing/debating with them is pointless. Its impossible to convince someone who's already convinced themselves.
Dunning/Kruger effect merely posits that there will be added _resistance_ to the change, not that the change is impossible. I feel this has to do with the "wiring" in our brains. When you think about something often, it creates its own little neural pathway in your brain. It's physical. In order to change it, you must spend time literally _rethinking_ your way off that path you created for yourself. This is why "I'm bad at math" is so difficult to overcome. You have to spend time reconstructing that well-worn thought path, and it's not easy, but not impossible.
@@maxcovfefe Hang on, I thought the Dunning-Kruger effect was the idea that when people know very little about a subject, they are so unknowledgeable about it that they don't even know how vast and deep the expanse of that subject is. As a result, they think their knowledge of the subject is far greater than it actually is, because they don't even know what they don't know. I don't remember it being about the rewiring of neural pathways...
@@maxcovfefe Psychedelic therapy will help with this as well. Obviously needs a little more research but so far they have shown to allow the brain to make new neural pathways that otherwise you wouldn't use. Also has shown to repair depressed neurons and create new ones.
a lot of what the alt right does in politics and arguing has been done before. Things like the communist witch-hunts in the 1930s used most of these points. The real difference between the alt-right and previous hate groups is that the alt-right concentrates on how we use speech. Everything else has been done before, us vs them, fear and hate mongering and all types of straw mans and red herrings.
sykeo123 dude your too obvious. Its pretty clear you're trying to provoke. Next time be a bit more subtle, like: The left is for people who don't want to work or want an excuse to say life is unfair. See thats pretty good because its just enough to not be total bullshit outright but enough generalizations and fallacies to act as some amazing bait.
CaitSeith whats even more hilarious is that people think elections matter. Oh wow i get to pick between 1 ruling class pig or another ruling class pig!!
FYI, in terms of winning over the audience, you actually can beat some alt-right opponents if you have a solid understanding of logical fallacies and shady debate tactics and apply it, and yes this does involves not taking the bait as you pointed out. If you continually call them out on moving the goal posts, using the band wagon or appeal to emotion fallacies, etc and reasserting the original point, quite often they eventually fly off the rails because none of their strategies worked but they have to continue to stand firm. They get internet-yelly and immature, at which point your side looks more appealing to onlookers because you stayed calm and stuck to the facts while your opponent threw a tantrum because their ploys didn't work out. It doesn't work every time (some really practiced alt-right debaters will just say the same 5 attempts to control the conversation over and over until the cows come home), but it works often enough that it's a worthy tactic if you're really invested in the debate, and boy is it satisfying when it works.
I absolutely do not want to compromise with the right, not in the slightest. I have no respect for them or their insanity. I want to make them irrelevant. Good doesn’t compromise with evil. Truth doesn’t compromise with lies.
@@aturchomicz821 no. Good doesn’t compromise with evil. Truth does not compromise with lies. The right doesn’t need to be bargained with. It needs to be destroyed.
Rule of thumb: if someone is 'pushed' towards neo-nazi, hyper-nationalist rhetoric simply by someone else making a video about TALKING to a group, then it's already too late. save your energy for your loved ones and those who are willing to listen. Life's too short to waste your energy on people who blame Jewish people, BLM, Antifa and (ironically) Feminazis for how shitty their lives are
watch the fuckers try and call me a 'liberal', even though I voted for Johnson. anything centrist of their viewpoint might as well be Leninist propaganda
Jack Sparham That's not the point, the group's are in no way just, but the fact that people get upset towards something that clearly has no effect on them is sad. They just want a scapegoat. Honestly, it's hard to admit that you fucked up when everything was given to you.
Jack Sparham That would've been a clearer response my apologies. I'm saying that it doesn't matter whether he thinks the group's are good or bad, the point he was trying to make is that groups who tend to get upset for their own failures tend to look for others to blame their faults.
Jack Sparham Yeah no problem, I 100% agree with you, as that those groups have 0 productivity in promoting their ideals. I'm certain that those groups use ideals as a justification to destroy property, I'm pretty sure they really don't care about what they're "fighting for".
A beautiful Carlin quote sums up this entire video. "Never argue against an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
I think it really speaks to the efficacy of this video and the expertise of Innuendo Studios that these videos' closed captions have been translated into 7 languages/dialects! I love this series and return to it frequently. Great job, folks!
America is right wing or center right by definition. Most so-called left wing candidates have those of us in Europe screaming "HE'S LEFT OF CENTER, NOT A LEFTIST!" or "YOU HAVE NO EFFECTIVE MAINSTREAM LEFTIST PRESENCE BESIDES GRASSROOTS MOVEMENTS!"
The American "left-wing" candidates would be right extremists in Europe and almost everywhere else in the world. Nobody would think they are left of center. And it is true, the general public in America has their leftists, and they don't have a representation in politics. Not since the Committee for Un-American Activites.
@@davidwuhrer6704 It's because of the two party system. The leftists keep voting light extreme right, so the Democrats have reason to go left. Same thing happened with social Democrats in Europe. The turned right to collect voters in the center because their base voters didn't have any other choice anyway. (but because there is no two party system it only wotked a few decades)
@@co-bruh1423 That doesn't even make sense. They're the one posting a summary of the video, not asking for one. They've already watched the video in order to be able to summarize it for others.
@@seamusmckeon9109 I mean I ultimately went away farther and farther from them from seeing actual blatant racism and how uncritical they were of donald trump but still
Hey man. just wanted to say that I'm proud of you. I was once dangerously close too. I grew up in catholic school. Many of my peers are alt right. The majority are conservative. I could have so easily gotten caught up in it. When you only hang out with rich white dudes, it becomes easy to think that their perspective on the world is normal or reasonable (it isn't).
I've been watching the Twitch streamer Destiny for some time now, and he's been debating Trump supporters, the alt-right, race realists and more for a good while now, and I got flashbacks when you said you feel like just leaning back and laughing at the kind of debate you're having. Whenever Destiny tries to pin a Trump supporter on a topic, it's just dodged. "What do you think of this policy?" "Sorry I just want to talk about culture." It's just insane to watch.
Except it hasn't. The people pioneering the research... are people with actual knowledge on the subject. Do you even know what you're talking about or do you just read the wikipedia article on scientific racism and go 'yep, this is correct'?
the thing about moving arguing like the alt right online is that it IS a performance. they aren't trying to sway the person they're arguing with, they're trying to sway people seeing that conversation.
"My mum studied cults ('new religious movements', Mum, please don't tell me off) and her first and only rule of how to not get into a cult was 'Do not. Under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE!!! Debate them.' Because they got debated into the cult and know the arguments that work. So, yeah, that's why all those Alt-Right chodes are always yelling DEBATE MEEEEEEE every chance they get. Debate isn't a fair and reasoned discussion, it's an extremely effective recruitment tool. You don't have to debate them. Nobody does. This is ESPECIALLY true if you are at college or university and think you're hot shit. I mean maybe you are, but people who approach you to talk about politics or religion have all the facts they need in their pockets. You're just a random who's good at molar calculations. You can say 'no' and you're not the lesser person. THEY came into YOUR space, you didn't invite them in." - Siobhan Thompson This especially rings true with Steven Crowder. When he comes to college campuses with his "*Insert controversial position with absolutely no evidence to back said position up with whatsoever* CHANGE MY MIND" signs, he isn't doing this for the purposes of actually having a thought-provoking debate, because he has absolutely no interest in winning a debate. He's doing this to get views on his UA-cam channel and gain new followers. Ben Shapiro is eerily similar. Don't feed the trolls.
This is a really good articulation of the differing ways the alt-right and the people who disagree with them use conversation. Like as someone who does value truth and nuance and all that good good understanding and empathy stuff it's sometimes easy to forget that to these people leaving a comment with a counterargument doesn't mean they think it's a matter worthy of debate like it does for reasonable people. It means they think they have to "attack" it because it's very existence in the discourse represents a threat to the legitimacy of their own. It's a pretty fundamental difference I think, like the alt-right doesn't want to discuss any of the ideas they define themselves by outside the context of shutting down people they disagree with because they don't conceptualize of the possibility that they might be capable of gaining more insight in a way that is valuable. I think there is some value to be had in responding to them, but it shouldn't be done in a fashion that takes their bait, since that's just giving them more opportunity to showcase their "ideological strength". Maybe do it in a manner based on deconstruction, so that when they try to shift the conversation you can respond by focusing the conversation specifically on why they tried to make that shift?
The example I often refer people to, when it comes to the issue you raised about the debate styles of "left vs. right," is the book you find in Skyrim detailing the difference between "debate" and "rhetoric." In the book, it details the argument between 2 wizards, one male, one female, who are debating whether or not Necromancy should be allowed to be studied amongst the other wizards at the college, or whether it should remain being viewed as an abomination/crime against humanity. The different debating styles quickly become apparent when, while arguing, the female wizard seeks to sway the audience by listing the fact-based pros & cons of such a practice as Necromancy, and chooses to let those pros & cons shape her decision on the matter. This is meant to represent the "debate" side of their argument. On the other hand, the male wizard is meant to represent the "rhetoric" side of the argument, and this manifests itself as him doing little more than hurling personal attacks towards his opponent, and many of the other wizards in attendance. This mirrors the differences you described in the video, because one side seeks to come to a fact-based resolution, hopefully reaching some sort of compromise, while the other side seeks to make you distrust the person delivering the message to you. Nothing more, nothing less. Needless to say, the argument between the 2 wizards ended in a perpetual stalemate.
I disagree. Being the bigger person and not "stooping to their level" is no different than "You go low, we go high". You can't have reasonable mature discussion when the other side doesn't want to play. So either way you lose. The only way to make the alt-right stop playing their game, is by beating them at it. When they can't take the cheap way out, they're forced to play by different rules. Maybe that's not the "correct" rules, but forcing them to change *at all* is a sign of weakness.
It's not even just the alt right. It's the crazy communists too who are mad about a liberal using the term "left" (they think that only their batshit ideology is "true left")
let me reassure you, long as their platform has political violence as a means to gain more support .They will never gain any recognition from state to be on the voter ballot lol . They will always be a loser platform same goes with nsm. We like to call them fringe groups a lot of those groups have echo chambers. Im libertain btw. Just remember my friend it is always state vs YOU! #biggovsucks!!
Black Knight Fool, nope not a fail. People like you that are associated fringe polical groups. You will always be the loser. You will never be on the voter ballot. You believe in polical violence as means to silence you're competition and use a recruitment tool.
ok, but that idea that "the left wants to meet in the middle" is a better description of centrists. Since you're talking mostly about Democrats and other liberals, who are centrists and/or center-right, that part is true enough, but it's incorrect to ascribe that trait to the left.
Yeah I kind of agree, being much more to the left than a typical democrat voter. There are some things for which people won't much want to "meet in the middle". I would say that even centrist people won't meet in the middle concerning the introduction of more "democracy in private companies", which is another way trying to water down the power that being the owner of a company gives you. And for people on the right wing it's out of the question. Same thing on the left, there's no tolerance of racism or sexism, even the small things like slurs, so for bigger things like considering what is a sexual assault/harrassment and what is not, abortion and other stuff, forget it... Now, for centrists being more intent on "meeting in the midde", well, depends on the subject, but since they kind of ARE in the center, you could see why they would be more inclined to do that... :-/
Wow. Not only is this video series very eye-opening, the comments section reads like a "hands-on workshop" with the group members in question resorting to the exact tactics described in the videos. Keep it up, people! It's highly educational.
The parts about debate reminds me of this beautiful quote: "Politics is an extension of war by other means. Arguments are soldiers. Once you know which side you’re on, you must support all arguments of that side, and attack all arguments that appear to favor the enemy side; otherwise it’s like stabbing your soldiers in the back-providing aid and comfort to the enemy." - Eliezer Yudkowsky (www.lesswrong.com/posts/9weLK2AJ9JEt2Tt8f/politics-is-the-mind-killer) Even if the right loves this and abuses it as much as they can, it is difficult for the left to avoid it as well, since this is a fundamental flaw in how politics and democracy is constructed and executed. Debates on this form are actively harmful to democracy. There is almost never a reward for giving compromises or admitting to being wrong, on the contrary, it is seen as a weakness.
this comment gave me pause. But, no, rap battles actually have people going back and forth in american presidential debates people just yell over each other
“Dude, yes you have!! You have done literally both of those things.” 🤣😂 Thanks for the laugh man. How is any of this real? The insanity of the times. We are living in a badly scripted reality show. Godspeed to the those of us on the Left
I find that you don't argue with Conservatives. Instead, you treat them condescendingly, like you would a 3-year-old who keeps asking for desert after you've said no for the thousandth time
I find myself tempted to do this and to be honest I usually do but I also sometimes think I am just pushing people even further into their fked beliefs when doing so
I find that alot of big conservatives do all these things though. The best way to debunk them is to deconstruct the argument and how they are manipulate it
@@smangy5442 We're gonna march to the Capitol and I'll be with you. He never was with them but trump did incite a riot to stop the flow of democracy by forcibly overturning DEMOCRATICALLY elected votes.
I found your channel after listening to Chapo Traphouse’s podcast where they interview Natalie from Contrapoints and she mentions your channel and specifically your videos, “Why are you so angry?” I love your videos they’re very informative and you have a great way of explaining things.
If you try to logic this out, they’ll just ignore you or say that you believe in something you don’t just to force you to to defend yourself. One guy sent me statistics he didn’t even fully understand or care to understand. It’s better just to not.
@@Prof_Tickles92 I wouldn’t say lack, more like they either see themself as undoubtedly correct because they want to feel superior or unironically feel like doubt for their view is an attack on themself so they make up a REASON why you would disagree. It’s a very feelings-based mindset but it doesn’t always mean that they aren’t intelligent or CAPABLE of seeing the contradictions (my brother is living proof- smart as hell but selfish and reactionary with a need to be right). They just more often than not choose not to because it would mean admitting they were wrong.
I've seen this before. You point out the flaws in their argument and they take 30 segues and then declare they answered the question. The only thing crazier is when you realize they really think they answered the question. You can't have a discussion with someone who only wants to dominate the conservation.
I only just found this series within the last couple months or so, and I've tried his advice. Knowing what to look for helps immensely, and keeping trumpets' feet to the fire is amazing to watch. I would rather they see the light, realize they're in a cult, and go home, but until then, I will settle for the satisfaction of watching them implode
"Who is the bigger fool, the fool, or the fool who follows him?" This brings so much more clarity to why people like Paul & Morgan, Girl Defined, and the Transformed Wife got so huge.
The one thing I think this video is missing is that it doesn't offer an explicit countermeasure to these tactics. You end by telling us to not try beating them at their own game, but you don't offer us a way to thwart this disingenousness.
Speak truth to people who listen and ignore the ones who do not. You can for example(like Shaun often does) take videos of far right conservative talkers and break down why what they're saying is wrong and stupid without ever once actually engaging with them. They COULD try doing the same but when they aren't in a room fast talking and insulting over people...it's a wee bit harder to employ that same strategy.
To add on to what the other person said, if you find yourself dealing with this tactic the best thing you can do is recognize the attempt to control the conversation and simply bring it back to the point. They'll never concede, but it will make them look foolish if they continue to dodge the issue at hand, which can be enough.
What I love most about "this guy's" disingenuous apologies is the fact that he always reads them in a way that makes it clear that he didn't write them. It's the sarcasm of that attitude that makes it all the more revolting.
actually that was a reference to a luke correia video But for real, if the video mentions trans people even tangentially => Video starts, scroll down, newest first xD@@TheRatsintheWalls
I agree, it helps to understand where all the sudden passive aggressive rage comes from, whenever I bring up facts they dislike. It made no sense, used to think some of leftists are just crazy, but now I see what they were after.
This is great! Awful funny how there are 3.1k dislikes yet there are pretty much no negative comments. Any argument they would make would be shredded apart by the video itself!
This is American Politics. This happens in damn near every comment section with Politics, either two sides flinging shit at each other, or one side being an echo chamber.
The fact that America elected somebody who bragged about sexual assault and there are still people who defend him to this day tells me everything I need to know about America.
I quit my schools debate club, because they switched from debating to something that more reflects our political concepts surrounding debate. In that framework the audience chose who won the debate.. even if they had no understanding of what exactly we were debating. We didn't have to debate well anymore, or understand our argument. We just had to sound like we knew what we were talking about. I suspect this was to push students to have more interest in politics, but if anything it pushed me away from how political debate was structured. It was nonsense, and sometimes broke out into actually just fighting in front of adults. I felt like I was there for entertainment rather than a display of knowledge on the topics we discussed.
"If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell." -Carl Sandburg
Gnorts Mr Alien *cough* Alex Jones
Best version of this I heard was
"If facts are against you, pound the law.
If the law is against you, pound the facts.
If both are against you, pound the table."
Gym Jordan and Matt "He's totally my son, guys" Gaetz are perfect examples of "Pound the Table Politicking".
And as we can dee exactly what the left dose nowadays..
@donotlike 4 anonymus: kindly troll elsewhere good sir lmao
@@LisaBeergutHolst grow up.. The 2 party system is broken... The right used to ignore facts reality and well pound the table abusing the law... Nowadays it is the left...
I've found the best response to "What about-ism" is to respond "We can get to that after you answer my question.
Get them to stick to the point they're trying to avoid.
Ok let's try it.
Trump is a pig.
Bill Clinton is a pig.
Now what?
@@chrismullaney8369 Vote Bernie Sanders 2020
@@chrismullaney8369 "that doesn't make Trump any better. Are you going to defend him? Or say he's just as bad as the former President you clearly dislike?"
@@ogolthorp am I going to defend the guy I called a pig?
Why would you ask such a stupid question?
I dislike both of them. Why are you struggling with this concept?
If you still struggle understanding, let me ask you: do you prefer Hitler or Stalin?
I only ask to demonstrate how easy it is to dislike two political leaders and for none of the other reasons I'm sure you're trying to conjure.
@@chrismullaney8369 then we agree. Trump is a shitty president.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person.
😂 Right on the money.
It‘s hard to gain smth form an argument when the goal is winning
@@sebastianlenzlinger9291 and winning is not based on the truth. It’s based on getting the most people to agree with you REGARDLESS of truth
i think the smartest people are those who can recognize a side that makes the most logical sense regardless of how their emotions react to it. most people don't fall into that category
A functional human being doesn't see a conversation as something that it's possible to win in the first place.
Trump Supporters 4 years ago: "I like him because he's honest and unapologetic. He doesn't pussy-foot around or talk in code, he says what's on his mind."
Trump supporters every day since then: "WHAT HE MEANT WAS-"
Trump supporters 4 years ago: "fuck your feelings snowflake, you lost a fair and legitimate election. He is your president!"
Trump supporters today: "voter fraud!! The election was stolen!! The election was not legitimate because it was rigged!! Biden is not my president!"
@@KandiKontent aw that’s cute, you think those things are comparable. Hey look guys, this kid is literally currently doing exactly what this video said the alt right’s shitty, practically fraudulent debating methods are!!!
We found the 4-Chan shirt wearing kid from the video!
@@frimi8593 So, no argument? They are comparable, as well.
@@MisterHeroman well yeah, this guy is literally doing the stuff explained in the video. I don’t need an argument, the video itself is argument enough
@Leon O'Donoghue Burke did you guys watch the video DONT argue with stupid
That's why they get so mad when you keep coming right back round to the original question.
@@voltarsystems are you trying to demonstrate how they Argue in bad faith?
@@Joesolo13 just pointing to the point in the arguments come back to the same original point.
@Lex Bright Raven see but you just lost the game by saying that.
The response to that insistence is now "I answered your question," before quickly pointing to the next reporter from a more favorable source, like Breitbart, OAN, or some other crackpot site with a reporter pass. It's the "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" argument from the Wizard of Oz. But if Toto keeps tugging at that curtain, the whole thing is exposed for the sham that it was the whole time.
@Lex Bright Raven Jesus Christ Mate ! Slowdown with the chopping head parts. We already have a branding problem,and you ain't helping it comrade.
"Never argue with stupid people. They'll bring you down to their level, then beat you with experience"
-Mark Twain
That was George Carlin
@@JaydedWun A few hundred years after Mark Twain said it, though.
ethan philpot so you should let them be uniformed and collect other people to join their idea ?
You are assuming people can’t change positions
@Aru Gula Mark Twain isn't funny to those who can't understand his humor.
Okay so right off the bat I have to say that I usually try to find the high road instead of the usual internet burn that halts productive conversation. But I couldn't resist. I happen to think Mark Twain is one of the greatest writers of all time let alone one of the greatest American writers. And I also think that he's genuinely very funny. But I don't have any issue with you. Go in peace brother. ... Or sister I guess. Damn internet anonymity.
@Aru Gula Oh yeah. Between the two of you, Mark Twain, national treasure is the sad one and certainly not Anu Gula, guy who doesn't get it.
"Meet me in the middle" says the dishonest man.
You take a step towards them and they take a step back.
"Meet me in the middle" says the dishonest man.
50 years...
🤔 Why are you describing the liberal position on everything from infanticide to population disarmament 🤨
@@lilben4184 "How to be an American Weirdo"
@@lilben4184 Said the dishonest man.
@@draexian530 Project harder, little sheep.
My God, they've weaponized trolling.
They've weaponized everything. Their worldview is that everything is combat, everyone is the enemy.
@@davidzachmeyer1957 lovely
@@davidzachmeyer1957 It's because they have nothing to lose. The Alt-Rights prime audience is insecure males who find everyone but themselves accountable for their personal failures.
movezig5 simply labeling it as trolling is dismissive of the danger of this shit. It’s straight up ingrained propaganda.
David Zachmeyer that will lead to them destroying themselves
"There are few better ways to get Democrats talking about what you want them to talk about than to defend your position badly"
Transphobe: Pronouns are dumb.
Everyone: What, you never learned grammar?
And now we're talking about first grade grammar, instead of the fact that deliberately misgendering someone is a form of hate speech.
Damn, I keep coming back to these videos. Such a good series.
I’ll give another example.
Me: Man that attempted insurrection on the capital was fucked up. All those Trump supporters lost their minds.
Them: You really think that’s what happened? It was antifa in disguise and besides, look how much damage BLM has done but the media isn’t crying about that!
Analysis: I said something factually true. You can prove they were Trump supporters because of the KAGA & MAGA apparel, flags, etc.
But they’ve shifted the conversation. Sure I cannot prove 100% it wasn’t antifa, but that’s the point. The argument shifted into an un winnable one, and they took an accusatory tone and posture which sets me up to play Defense on an argument they’ve shifted the parameters to.
Or gum up their works by giving intentionally unproductive answer:
Transphobe: Pronouns are dumb.
Response: Maybe you just suck.
Transphobe: That's an ad homonym attack. That's a fallacy.
Response: I guess it was. But you haven't defended my point that you suck, so I'll take it as you conceding that you do.
The alt-right and the right in general has been getting away with this kind of mischief for a decade. Throw it right back in their faces. And if they take the receipts back to their hovel to show how intolerant the left is, they'll still have to present transcripts of them getting told how much they suck.
freaky that I'm still seeing some variation of that exact twitter "dunk" over a year later
@@EasilyBoredGamer Yeah, let's get some more advanced dunks started. *English* pronouns are dumb. Singular they is kinda awkward sometimes (that ain't a reason to misgender somebody, but yeah, sometimes it's awkward). Also, if you want some real advanced pronouns, Swedish has special pronouns for "the one guy" and "the other guy." So if you've ever found yourself saying "He told him X, but then he said Y... Uh, I mean Adam told Steve X, but then Steve said Y..." You can just say that in Swedish! It's perfectly clear who you mean!
muslims: stop teaching the ghey to our women
ua-cam.com/video/HzpWPYQO3T8/v-deo.html&ab_channel=VoiceofAmerica
I’m a former conservative and as a result I know all their talking points and debate styles and non sequiters, etc. and because of that I know what they’re trying to do AND NEVER let them change the subject or gish gallop me. We are talking about “X”. If they have a relevant side point that is germane to the topic at hand we can incorporate that. But when the subject is the cost of universal healthcare, no, I’m not entertaining your side quest of the 5 year survival rate of pancreatic cancer in the Netherlands.
"side quest" hehe I love how you phrased that. BTW congrats on escaping conservatism.
I couldn't possibly imagine myself ever using that style of argumentation (i.e changing the subject to something completely irrelevant).
Side Quest lmao
Yup. A reply to the "it's just locker room talk" is smth like "so you agree that sexual assault is bad." and boom, back on topic. They would be on the defense. They might do what aboutism, but if they compare him to someone else who is supposed to be leftist, you end up saying "so you disagree with that leftist candidate, but you ALSO disagree with the candidate you're defending? They're both bad then?"
It worked several times to shut them down, or if they're on the fence, this helped force them admit that the person they're defending IS as bad as we all say he is, and in order to save their "i am a centrist" ego, they at the very least end up not getting radicalized.
Your hypothetical conservative is still 10x smarter than actual real life conservative. A real conservative would just say some shit like “why should I pay for your healthcare🤓”
@@SidheKnight What exactly is wrong with conservativism?
Keep in mind that when he says "the left", he's not just talking about democrats. The alt-right is a problem globally.
@_ Ika a proof of the entire video theme.
@_ Ika white supremacist groups exist (e.g. KKK, neonazis) therefore the alt-right exists, there we go.
Imagine thinking democrats were left wing
it's actually a big misconception that the democrats are left. they're both rightwing. second thought breaks it down well: ua-cam.com/video/ULYWIDcUOY4/v-deo.html
@@tillycomedy2194 America doesn't have liberal parties. At best we have left leaning centrists. But most are right leaning.
I have PhD in political science. Until a year ago, when I left academia for reasons not worth going into here, I was a professor thereof. I love, love, love your videos on the alt-right. Just wanted you to know that some of us with credentials that probably shouldn't matter but do to lots of people think you're hitting the nail on the head.
Don't worry, most people wouldn't consider a PhD in political science to be significant. To the vast majority of people, that's like having a PhD in astrology or homeopathy. Just out of curiosity, did you predict Hillary was going to win?
Miðgarðsormr Apophis ... LOL. Most people? You mean in your sauna?
Vote for Hillary. Hillary 2016. Hillary 2020.
Another liberal professor forced to do actual manly work! 😂🤣
@@nicholasr79 is doing research not manly lmao
"Trump is not like that anymore, also look at what Biden said in the 80s"
The hypocrisy of the left. (And this is the part where I'm called alt-right).
@@MisterHeroman are you pointing at Joe Biden and all the shit he pulled in the 80's?
What did Biden said
That argument structure is called what aboutisim
@@MisterHeroman it’s not hypocrisy. You’re just not intelligent enough to understand left wing positions.
"language is harmless!"
"Ok Boomer."
*Offended screeching*
that has literally never happend
@@fridolinfrohlich9594 lol, ok boomer.
@@fridolinfrohlich9594 Have you saw all the people on social media saying that boomer is equivalent to the n-word ?
@@naterambles8525 le cringe millenial has arrived
@@NIHIL_EGO nah
What’s hilarious is how they say “she needs to lean in” and not “he needs to take responsibility for what he said.” The mental gymnastics of blaming women in the end will always astound me.
Remember, there is no mental gymnastics, there is no inconsistency. These “contradictory” arguments are perfectly consistent on the idea that women don’t deserve agency.
This is why (for now) I don't talk to my parents anymore. Logic has no weight against belief. This is basically a description of the Christian Right as well. Their Sundays at church have turned into mini-Trump rallies, and long story short: I can't even.
Welcome to the world of dealing with creationists. Been there, done that. Fun to beat the shit out of them intelleculally....but they simply don't care in the face of their belief. So, it's pointless.
You are really sad, Max. Pathetic.
@@DakotaSshow You don't have the details, so you don't know enough to judge.
@@maxcovfefe I know my parents were Trump supporters and I listened to them and actually had my mind changed.
@@DakotaSshow Yeah, totally different situation there, buddy. I hate to tell you this, but not all Trump supporters are very civil. I love my family, but let's just say I had to back off to keep loving them. If you do and say enough hateful things, people won't wanna be around you. I'm super glad it worked out for you and your family, who I assume may have had a more friendly approach when you listened.
*cough* Ben sharpiro’s argument structure
"well uhm actually you can see that's not true because men are opressed and if you look at the facts, then, uhhh. LIBERAL!"
@@birbies slight correction: "welluhmactuallyyoucanseethat'snottruebecausemenareopressedandifyoulookatthefactsthenuhhhLIBERAL!"
He’s everything but alt right. He a thousand times said that he doesn’t care about the “browining of America” or generally race. Which is an unacceptable statement for the alt right.
Just take your morning adderall dose and get in front of a room full of sub-geniuses.
@@tanyag5646 He's a gateway to the alt-right. Most people think race related ideas in the alt-right are rightfully stupid, but they can feel more inclined to give the lukewarm right figurehead Shapiro a chance (especially when he is presented in joke videos "owning dem ess jay dubyas"). People follow that pipeline and become indoctrinated as they are brainwashed slowly. No one starts at the extreme end of any spectrum.
He isn't alt-right as far as we know publicly, but he is a useful tool (in every sense of the word) for the alt-right.
I spent an entire year extending every benefit of a doubt to an alt righter hoping he was just misinformed or confused. Ultimately I cut him off when I realized he just genuinely did not give a single **** about anyone but himself regardless of how he said he did. Just don't bother trying because you'll just be wasting your time and energy.
You aren't going to be able to cure a personaity disorder. Not sure that a psychiatrist or other medical professional can, either, so you're right - it's a waste of time & energy.
same!
@@davidzachmeyer1957 love yall and all but this is a dangerously pessimistic puritan way to view politics. ik everybody wants to believe theyre always on the right side of history here but this is the last approach the left needs rn
You can't reason with evil.
Their game is Calvinball. And #1 Rule of Calvinball is that Calvin always wins.
Actually the only rule of Calvinball is that you can't play the same way twice. Calvin has indeed lost before, most notably to Rosalyn
"Claim everything, deny everything, admit nothing"
Prescott Bush
@@grantmaurer9921 Calvin and Hobbes lore purists unite
@@funybirbman3813 lmao
Where'd you get that from? The whole joke of the game is that there are no rules?
And the worst part is, if you DO insist on the original topic and refuse to take the bait, the conversation just ends. They know EXACTLY what they're doing, and will quietly retreat(or loudly try to save face) once it becomes clear it isn't working.
Good
You can thank Jordan Peterson for teaching people how to do this annoying shit on purpose.
"This guy assaulted women."
When this video was made, it was a safe assumption. In 2023, it's a judicially proven fact.
Haha, "judicially proven" and "fact" in the same sentence
(yeah duh, the guy obviously assaulted a bunch of women, I just found that phrasing amusing)
@@ziwuriyeah.... I hate how calling orange guy a convicted felon is a lot less punchy when a ton of innocent people get the same label thanks to our garbage fire justice system
Fun game: See how many people do the exact things said on the video in this comment section. Bonus points if they clearly didn't watch the video.
Addition: Points for finding comments having no clue about what consent is.
They'll wait until tomorrow, if we are lucky.
Do you mean the alt-right strategies, or the idealistic liberal ones?
There's a reason this is the top comment.
Grab that Wall by the pussy!
"this guy assaulted women"
And now there's a civil lawsuit that held him responsible for that too.
This channel's content ages like wine. And that's a bad thing.
Why is it bad?
@@Pateint Because far too often the worst of the far righr predicted here turns out to be correct.
@@Nai-qk4vp Oh yea thats true
and again, another lawsuit that turned out to be fabricated lies from the usury suspects.
something tells me you have no idea what aging wine means.
@@リンゴ酢-b8g He was found liable for sexual assault. cope
Reading down, there's so many comments reiterating the same "he said 'they let you do it' so that's not rape" point while removing the "when you're a star" context that adds a very dangerous power balance to the interaction. Even if we ignore how those in powerful positions can be risky to say no to (and coerced consent or consent given under duress are still very questionable at best), and even if we decide to take a serial liar (who could also just very well be mistaken about how willing people are to be touched by him) at his word, there's been many actual accusations of rape and sexual assault, and other interactions that are sketchy at best (watching pageant contestants dressing, his wife's account of assault that she later clarified she wouldn't call rape even though by her account that's what it was).
It's amusing seeing the video calling out this "control the conversation/changing the subject" argument style, and then seeing the comments filled with people nitpicking about soecific word choice and what Trump said instead of what he demonstrably did.
Your last point is all that matters. These people are commenting in the EXACT ways that are portrayed in the videos. There douche baggery can be mapped from their comment to the answers in the video. You don't even need to say words, just post time stamps, lol.
What's Just Comicly Ironic Is What-Aboutisms Where Comonly Used By Russian Intelligence In There Past "Propaganda" And Dissinformation Campaigns!
So famous people cant have sexual encounters with anyone who's not as rich or famous !
Yeah, I mean, at the root of all this is a desperate need of an increasingly entrenched right to justify its own existence despite the tide of reality rapidly dismantling its tangible connections to power: logic, creativity and morality. Instead of soul searching and learning fluidity with regards to one's place in the world, they've decided to throw out meaning entirely in some kind of postmodernist circling of the wagons.
People would rather vainly attempt to mould life to their beliefs than readjust accordingly.
@@topman8565 Damn you guys really follow all the strategies he describes to a tee, like you're following an instruction manual
I figured this one out on my own after more Twitter arguments than are healthy for me. Now I just respond with "That is unrelated to the topic" and then they stop talking, which is probably far better for my mental health.
prepare yourself for all the comments about the comments this video will receive. just wanted to add a third level meta comment myself.
Wish I'd seen this comment before the comments about the comments this video received. Would have also been nice to read a comment about the video before reading several comments about the comments of the video.
reported for commenting
But now you've commented on the comments that comment on the comments of this video, thus nesting a neverending loop of comments about comments, perpetuating that which you wanted to 'prepare' others for in the first place. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!
You wanted to; meaning you could not for some reason?
Is it now third or forth level?
Best quote of the video: "The right sells certainty better than the left sells truth." Slow clap.
Bruh this whole series is art of war but for dealing with nazis
Arguably, the art of war has already been used to deal with nazis
*This would probably not work on actual nazis
I think Kyle Kulinski of Secular talk did have a good point about debating some people on the right: use their own logic against them in support of leftist policy. You believe in small government, right? Let’s work together on reducing military spending then. If they disagree, they look like a hypocrite, and if they agree, you have won.
@@HELLO7657
There is that problem: If the government should provide as little as possible, then the military, if it is deemed a necessity, should be privatised.
And private military corporations have not been good news so far.
The problem is, that sounds good, but it doesn't work. The same people who say "I need an assault rifle in case the government becomes a tyranny" aren't rushing to liberate concentration camps on the southern border. They're the loudest champions and defenders of the policy.
Fusilier Yup, they do not have the intellectual consistency and integrity that would make such strategies be effective on them
Nah, they just say that military spending is more important to education and it affects everyone so it’s not biased. They basically just have it as an exception
@@docan5248 It's really less about convincing them and more about exposing their inconsistencies to any onlookers
I'm a firm believer in weaponizing the far Rights rhetorical tactics against them. I've used these tricks myself, and it works frighteningly well. As crappy as their positions are, they are so easy to beat when you fight dirty and don't let them define the rules of the game
Ian said that this will only achieve short term goals, but ultimately isn’t worth it because it shows that truth and integrity don’t matter which will inevitably confirm the right’s worldview.
Hate to be a party pooper, but what did you realistically achieve with these beyond making yourself feel good for winning arguments? Like the right uses these tactics to deflect discussion because they are hiding their actual beliefs. I do not see how the left would benefit from adopting these.
Talking to yourself in the mirror doesn't count bro.
@@Charlie-uz8vb my guy ive seen you in 3 replies now all with singular likes so theres no way in hell you came to a video abt dissecting argumentitive frameworks and then liked all your shitty roast replies every time
How do you fight dirty with them?
Note how most of the junk comments here are debating about the words and not the content.
+Solaru C This is a comment as I found it, literally right above yours...
"Kat Reynolds: this is why you just shoot Nazis".
Maybe try looking at the non-junk comments then?
Xenath Cytrin Impossible, this is a political video.
Its a pretty good way to derail the conversation. Pull it into the weeds to ignore the central argument.
What content tho? The echochamber REEEEEing about evil Nazis and literally Hitler grabbing pussy (with consent)?
I got tricked into this by a group of alt right people on Twitter. It started with a conversation on the minimum wage and they quickly steered it to regulations, how government causes all costs to rise, Obamacare, and so on. Before I even realized it they had steered me so far off topic with falsehoods and bad arguments that I just gave up. This video describes in perfectly
Are you sure the reason why it went from minimum wage to costs rising is because they go hand in hand in effect; Boss raises wages of the workers-Boss needs to make more profit so he raises prices of product-inflation-bankruptsy of government-everyone loses.
@@reddyforlenny9389thanks for illustrating the OP's point.
The comments on this video totally validate its content.
lmao kafka-ist as usual
Yeah, the only flaw is he forgets these tactics are used by both sides.
Especially the comments that support the video.
@@TheWesterlyWarlock "the right has made it core to their entire platform"
Don't take it out of context please
@@andrewcarosi4600 but he doesn't. he LITERALLY says this on every video about right wing tactics. while i do disagree with him implying that the right mostly does this. you're kind of ignoring him here
whenever I hear a homophobe talking about how "gay is a choice" I like to say "alright than be gay. just choose to be gay, right now."
Whenever I hear a leftist talking I like to say "shut the fuck up"
@@dixierekt1773 your pfp is very fitting.
@@Me-wx1mt refer to my original reply
@@Me-wx1mt refer to original reply
@@dixierekt1773 bot
This video is about a year old at this point, so most discussions have basically been completed. On the first one that I started looking at, the exact same thing that was talked about in the video played out to a T. It’s incredible how accurate this video really is.
This guy knows the psychology of the far right way to well and I thought I had a good understanding!
Alt right fans are inflicted with something called "Dunning/Kruger effect". Arguing/debating with them is pointless. Its impossible to convince someone who's already convinced themselves.
Dunning/Kruger effect merely posits that there will be added _resistance_ to the change, not that the change is impossible. I feel this has to do with the "wiring" in our brains. When you think about something often, it creates its own little neural pathway in your brain. It's physical. In order to change it, you must spend time literally _rethinking_ your way off that path you created for yourself. This is why "I'm bad at math" is so difficult to overcome. You have to spend time reconstructing that well-worn thought path, and it's not easy, but not impossible.
@@maxcovfefe Hang on, I thought the Dunning-Kruger effect was the idea that when people know very little about a subject, they are so unknowledgeable about it that they don't even know how vast and deep the expanse of that subject is. As a result, they think their knowledge of the subject is far greater than it actually is, because they don't even know what they don't know. I don't remember it being about the rewiring of neural pathways...
@@brickvideos4851 Yeah, you're right, I was thinking of some other cognitive bias.
Do you mean *afflicted*, guy?
@@maxcovfefe Psychedelic therapy will help with this as well. Obviously needs a little more research but so far they have shown to allow the brain to make new neural pathways that otherwise you wouldn't use. Also has shown to repair depressed neurons and create new ones.
Now I understand why even 1 year after the elections people still use the "but Hillary" arguments as defence against criticism towards Trump.
Yeah, because they dont like trump either, They jsut thought that Trump is the lesser evil
a lot of what the alt right does in politics and arguing has been done before. Things like the communist witch-hunts in the 1930s used most of these points. The real difference between the alt-right and previous hate groups is that the alt-right concentrates on how we use speech. Everything else has been done before, us vs them, fear and hate mongering and all types of straw mans and red herrings.
sykeo123 dude your too obvious. Its pretty clear you're trying to provoke. Next time be a bit more subtle, like:
The left is for people who don't want to work or want an excuse to say life is unfair.
See thats pretty good because its just enough to not be total bullshit outright but enough generalizations and fallacies to act as some amazing bait.
sykeo123 it's funny cos the alt right party in my country is notorious for high ranking politicians doing hard drugs
CaitSeith whats even more hilarious is that people think elections matter. Oh wow i get to pick between 1 ruling class pig or another ruling class pig!!
“Bad arguments are not a bug, they’re a feature” I wasn’t aware that arguments were the same thing as the Elder Scrolls games
FYI, in terms of winning over the audience, you actually can beat some alt-right opponents if you have a solid understanding of logical fallacies and shady debate tactics and apply it, and yes this does involves not taking the bait as you pointed out. If you continually call them out on moving the goal posts, using the band wagon or appeal to emotion fallacies, etc and reasserting the original point, quite often they eventually fly off the rails because none of their strategies worked but they have to continue to stand firm. They get internet-yelly and immature, at which point your side looks more appealing to onlookers because you stayed calm and stuck to the facts while your opponent threw a tantrum because their ploys didn't work out. It doesn't work every time (some really practiced alt-right debaters will just say the same 5 attempts to control the conversation over and over until the cows come home), but it works often enough that it's a worthy tactic if you're really invested in the debate, and boy is it satisfying when it works.
I absolutely do not want to compromise with the right, not in the slightest. I have no respect for them or their insanity. I want to make them irrelevant. Good doesn’t compromise with evil. Truth doesn’t compromise with lies.
50 years of Social Democracy in Europe wouldnt have been possible without comprimising. Dont be so secure....
@@aturchomicz821 no. Good doesn’t compromise with evil. Truth does not compromise with lies. The right doesn’t need to be bargained with. It needs to be destroyed.
Rule of thumb: if someone is 'pushed' towards neo-nazi, hyper-nationalist rhetoric simply by someone else making a video about TALKING to a group, then it's already too late. save your energy for your loved ones and those who are willing to listen. Life's too short to waste your energy on people who blame Jewish people, BLM, Antifa and (ironically) Feminazis for how shitty their lives are
watch the fuckers try and call me a 'liberal', even though I voted for Johnson. anything centrist of their viewpoint might as well be Leninist propaganda
Jack Sparham That's not the point, the group's are in no way just, but the fact that people get upset towards something that clearly has no effect on them is sad. They just want a scapegoat. Honestly, it's hard to admit that you fucked up when everything was given to you.
Jack Sparham I guess if you only hear what you want to hear then a lot of things don't go with the conversation.
Jack Sparham That would've been a clearer response my apologies. I'm saying that it doesn't matter whether he thinks the group's are good or bad, the point he was trying to make is that groups who tend to get upset for their own failures tend to look for others to blame their faults.
Jack Sparham Yeah no problem, I 100% agree with you, as that those groups have 0 productivity in promoting their ideals. I'm certain that those groups use ideals as a justification to destroy property, I'm pretty sure they really don't care about what they're "fighting for".
5 years later, the algorithm has seen fit to send me this video. Blessed be the conditionals that drive its decision making.
A beautiful Carlin quote sums up this entire video. "Never argue against an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
I think that's actually Mark Twain...😯
@@grmpEqweer either both of them said it or someone misattributed it to Carlin and it became widespread. Either way it's a great quote.
That was Mark Twain actually! But it's Definitley something he would say lol.
Well yeah, but if the argument is scheduled and inevitable, and the fate of an entire nation depends on that argument, what do you do?
@@EccentricEnthusiadam dismantle the government?
"It's fascinating to watch someone argue when he is totally unrestrained by whether he is speaking truth or not" - My father
"Once you start playing their game, you've already lost"
i remember sending this to a friend and his only rebuddle was that you didnt cite sources. you did in fact site sources.
I think it really speaks to the efficacy of this video and the expertise of Innuendo Studios that these videos' closed captions have been translated into 7 languages/dialects! I love this series and return to it frequently. Great job, folks!
Who’s here after Donald Trump was held liable for sexual abuse?
America is right wing or center right by definition. Most so-called left wing candidates have those of us in Europe screaming "HE'S LEFT OF CENTER, NOT A LEFTIST!" or "YOU HAVE NO EFFECTIVE MAINSTREAM LEFTIST PRESENCE BESIDES GRASSROOTS MOVEMENTS!"
Its all relative. But yes.
The American "left-wing" candidates would be right extremists in Europe and almost everywhere else in the world. Nobody would think they are left of center.
And it is true, the general public in America has their leftists, and they don't have a representation in politics. Not since the Committee for Un-American Activites.
@@davidwuhrer6704
It's because of the two party system.
The leftists keep voting light extreme right, so the Democrats have reason to go left.
Same thing happened with social Democrats in Europe. The turned right to collect voters in the center because their base voters didn't have any other choice anyway. (but because there is no two party system it only wotked a few decades)
P A S O K
Could you maybe send some help from across the pond? We’d really appreciate it.
Jordan Peterson is the avatar of Control the Conversation. He has taught a lot of people this strategy, and we see the effects every day now.
TLDW: don’t let reactionaries control the conversation. Do your damnedest to keep the conversation on the subject at hand.
Ten minutes is too long for you? Sad.
@@co-bruh1423 For others maybe. No need to be rude
@@co-bruh1423 That doesn't even make sense. They're the one posting a summary of the video, not asking for one. They've already watched the video in order to be able to summarize it for others.
plus a summary is good for people to have a takeaway for how to handle situations where they're caught in an argument
I tell my friends who are conservatives: Let's just agree that I can't convince you I'm right because you won't listen.
Stop trying to find out WHO is right and find out WHAT is right.
It didn't work in Canada... our Trump got laughed out of politics pretty early on in the leadership process.
Meanwhile the rest of the world laughs at your commie dictator loving bitchboy of a PM. Substitute drama teacher indeed. What a joke of a country.
The rest of the world is laughing at Trump, willing or not.
You have a very loose view of what constitutes "communism"
@@Rozmic Proof?
And we laugh in free healthcare
I do need to remember this sometimes. It’s really tempting to take a troll’s bait and correct their bad arguments.
Man, who out there realizes they can exploit their opponents fervent loyalty to truth and still thinks of themselves as the good guy?
The alt right.
Finding a dislike of me on this video on rewatching makes me think I was closer to becoming alt right than I thought I ever was
It’s crazy right?
@@seamusmckeon9109 I mean I ultimately went away farther and farther from them from seeing actual blatant racism and how uncritical they were of donald trump but still
Hey man. just wanted to say that I'm proud of you. I was once dangerously close too. I grew up in catholic school. Many of my peers are alt right. The majority are conservative. I could have so easily gotten caught up in it. When you only hang out with rich white dudes, it becomes easy to think that their perspective on the world is normal or reasonable (it isn't).
@@idontwantahandlethough Haha catholicism
I've been watching the Twitch streamer Destiny for some time now, and he's been debating Trump supporters, the alt-right, race realists and more for a good while now, and I got flashbacks when you said you feel like just leaning back and laughing at the kind of debate you're having. Whenever Destiny tries to pin a Trump supporter on a topic, it's just dodged. "What do you think of this policy?" "Sorry I just want to talk about culture."
It's just insane to watch.
It's your job to make the audience know their attempt at dodging. Not to laugh and say, "Ha, look at me! I'm laughing so therefore I've won!"
Race realism is the belief that race is real. And by 'belief', I mean knowing the scientific reality of humans.
It's not scientific reality, it's been rejected by anyone with actual knowledge of the subject.
Well, if white supremacist can label themself "centrists" they sure as hell can label themself "realist" when there is no such reality...
Except it hasn't. The people pioneering the research... are people with actual knowledge on the subject. Do you even know what you're talking about or do you just read the wikipedia article on scientific racism and go 'yep, this is correct'?
the thing about moving arguing like the alt right online is that it IS a performance. they aren't trying to sway the person they're arguing with, they're trying to sway people seeing that conversation.
"My mum studied cults ('new religious movements', Mum, please don't tell me off) and her first and only rule of how to not get into a cult was 'Do not. Under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE!!! Debate them.' Because they got debated into the cult and know the arguments that work.
So, yeah, that's why all those Alt-Right chodes are always yelling DEBATE MEEEEEEE every chance they get. Debate isn't a fair and reasoned discussion, it's an extremely effective recruitment tool.
You don't have to debate them. Nobody does.
This is ESPECIALLY true if you are at college or university and think you're hot shit. I mean maybe you are, but people who approach you to talk about politics or religion have all the facts they need in their pockets. You're just a random who's good at molar calculations.
You can say 'no' and you're not the lesser person. THEY came into YOUR space, you didn't invite them in." - Siobhan Thompson
This especially rings true with Steven Crowder. When he comes to college campuses with his "*Insert controversial position with absolutely no evidence to back said position up with whatsoever* CHANGE MY MIND" signs, he isn't doing this for the purposes of actually having a thought-provoking debate, because he has absolutely no interest in winning a debate. He's doing this to get views on his UA-cam channel and gain new followers. Ben Shapiro is eerily similar.
Don't feed the trolls.
I keep coming back to this series and holy hell is it still painfully relevant.
This is a really good articulation of the differing ways the alt-right and the people who disagree with them use conversation. Like as someone who does value truth and nuance and all that good good understanding and empathy stuff it's sometimes easy to forget that to these people leaving a comment with a counterargument doesn't mean they think it's a matter worthy of debate like it does for reasonable people. It means they think they have to "attack" it because it's very existence in the discourse represents a threat to the legitimacy of their own.
It's a pretty fundamental difference I think, like the alt-right doesn't want to discuss any of the ideas they define themselves by outside the context of shutting down people they disagree with because they don't conceptualize of the possibility that they might be capable of gaining more insight in a way that is valuable. I think there is some value to be had in responding to them, but it shouldn't be done in a fashion that takes their bait, since that's just giving them more opportunity to showcase their "ideological strength". Maybe do it in a manner based on deconstruction, so that when they try to shift the conversation you can respond by focusing the conversation specifically on why they tried to make that shift?
"He doesn't speak like that anymore"
"Yes he does"
"Well ___ does that"
*IRRELEVANT!!!!*
"But-"
*IRRELEVANT!!!!*
This Is How I'd Deal With That
The example I often refer people to, when it comes to the issue you raised about the debate styles of "left vs. right," is the book you find in Skyrim detailing the difference between "debate" and "rhetoric." In the book, it details the argument between 2 wizards, one male, one female, who are debating whether or not Necromancy should be allowed to be studied amongst the other wizards at the college, or whether it should remain being viewed as an abomination/crime against humanity. The different debating styles quickly become apparent when, while arguing, the female wizard seeks to sway the audience by listing the fact-based pros & cons of such a practice as Necromancy, and chooses to let those pros & cons shape her decision on the matter. This is meant to represent the "debate" side of their argument. On the other hand, the male wizard is meant to represent the "rhetoric" side of the argument, and this manifests itself as him doing little more than hurling personal attacks towards his opponent, and many of the other wizards in attendance. This mirrors the differences you described in the video, because one side seeks to come to a fact-based resolution, hopefully reaching some sort of compromise, while the other side seeks to make you distrust the person delivering the message to you. Nothing more, nothing less. Needless to say, the argument between the 2 wizards ended in a perpetual stalemate.
I disagree. Being the bigger person and not "stooping to their level" is no different than "You go low, we go high".
You can't have reasonable mature discussion when the other side doesn't want to play. So either way you lose.
The only way to make the alt-right stop playing their game, is by beating them at it. When they can't take the cheap way out, they're forced to play by different rules. Maybe that's not the "correct" rules, but forcing them to change *at all* is a sign of weakness.
There’s a lot of defensive people in these comments
It's not even just the alt right. It's the crazy communists too who are mad about a liberal using the term "left" (they think that only their batshit ideology is "true left")
+Soarel
That isn't happening, try again.
Funny how a video attacking an entire group of people would have defencive comments.
let me reassure you, long as their platform has political violence as a means to gain more support .They will never gain any recognition from state to be on the voter ballot lol . They will always be a loser platform same goes with nsm. We like to call them fringe groups a lot of those groups have echo chambers. Im libertain btw. Just remember my friend it is always state vs YOU! #biggovsucks!!
Black Knight Fool, nope not a fail. People like you that are associated fringe polical groups. You will always be the loser. You will never be on the voter ballot. You believe in polical violence as means to silence you're competition and use a recruitment tool.
ok, but that idea that "the left wants to meet in the middle" is a better description of centrists. Since you're talking mostly about Democrats and other liberals, who are centrists and/or center-right, that part is true enough, but it's incorrect to ascribe that trait to the left.
Yeah I kind of agree, being much more to the left than a typical democrat voter. There are some things for which people won't much want to "meet in the middle". I would say that even centrist people won't meet in the middle concerning the introduction of more "democracy in private companies", which is another way trying to water down the power that being the owner of a company gives you. And for people on the right wing it's out of the question. Same thing on the left, there's no tolerance of racism or sexism, even the small things like slurs, so for bigger things like considering what is a sexual assault/harrassment and what is not, abortion and other stuff, forget it...
Now, for centrists being more intent on "meeting in the midde", well, depends on the subject, but since they kind of ARE in the center, you could see why they would be more inclined to do that... :-/
Wow. Not only is this video series very eye-opening, the comments section reads like a "hands-on workshop" with the group members in question resorting to the exact tactics described in the videos. Keep it up, people! It's highly educational.
The parts about debate reminds me of this beautiful quote:
"Politics is an extension of war by other means. Arguments are soldiers. Once you know which side you’re on, you must support all arguments of that side, and attack all arguments that appear to favor the enemy side; otherwise it’s like stabbing your soldiers in the back-providing aid and comfort to the enemy." - Eliezer Yudkowsky
(www.lesswrong.com/posts/9weLK2AJ9JEt2Tt8f/politics-is-the-mind-killer)
Even if the right loves this and abuses it as much as they can, it is difficult for the left to avoid it as well, since this is a fundamental flaw in how politics and democracy is constructed and executed. Debates on this form are actively harmful to democracy. There is almost never a reward for giving compromises or admitting to being wrong, on the contrary, it is seen as a weakness.
This series is fantastic. You have delivered a true masterpiece. You can stop working and still have done enough for ten lifetimes. (But please dont).
It's 2024 and this is still 100% on point.
I used to argue with people, now I just say "WOW! You're so smart!! Anyways..." then change topic to literally ANYTHING ELSE
5:50 wait a minute... does this mean American Debates are structured like a Rap Battle?
this comment gave me pause.
But, no, rap battles actually have people going back and forth
in american presidential debates people just yell over each other
Erb has done that
“Dude, yes you have!! You have done literally both of those things.” 🤣😂 Thanks for the laugh man. How is any of this real? The insanity of the times. We are living in a badly scripted reality show. Godspeed to the those of us on the Left
I find that you don't argue with Conservatives.
Instead, you treat them condescendingly, like you would a 3-year-old who keeps asking for desert after you've said no for the thousandth time
I find myself tempted to do this and to be honest I usually do but I also sometimes think I am just pushing people even further into their fked beliefs when doing so
Post-Trump Conservatives aren't respectable, they take joy from hurting people
I find that alot of big conservatives do all these things though. The best way to debunk them is to deconstruct the argument and how they are manipulate it
that's exactly how you should speak to conservatives
Granddad knew how to deal with fascists.
This is describing every single solitary video of Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson
This guy called his followers to invade the Capital Building while counting the electoral collage votes.
@@smangy5442 yes he did
@@smangy5442
We're gonna march to the Capitol and I'll be with you.
He never was with them but trump did incite a riot to stop the flow of democracy by forcibly overturning DEMOCRATICALLY elected votes.
@@smangy5442 yes he did
That sounds cool if that did actually happen.
@@mush1e979 He was referring to the rally. I hope you aren't a lawyer.
I found your channel after listening to Chapo Traphouse’s podcast where they interview Natalie from Contrapoints and she mentions your channel and specifically your videos, “Why are you so angry?” I love your videos they’re very informative and you have a great way of explaining things.
Vaush should watch this video every day when he wakes up.
Don’t forget Destiny, considering that he’s buddying up with a Nazi on a regular basis now
Let me tell you guys something. EVERY SINGLE TIME an Alt-Right person changes the subject, reassert your original statement.
Can't believe this video is still very valid so many years later🙄🙄
This is exactly what they do, refuse to answer a simple question and do the run around until you get tired of them
The only thing that cringes me about this video is that "democrat", "leftist" and "liberal" are used as synonyms
I think he presupposes that all left leaning people fundamentally value the intellectualism of debate more than the right.
@@natethegreatest1000 That may be true, but democrats are not leftists, and liberal is such a loaded term today
yeah in a LOT of Leftist spaces Liberal is used as a denigration of someone and not a good thing.
If you try to logic this out, they’ll just ignore you or say that you believe in something you don’t just to force you to to defend yourself. One guy sent me statistics he didn’t even fully understand or care to understand. It’s better just to not.
Most of them lack intellectual consistency and integrity. They are incapable of seeing the contradictions or deep introspection.
@@Prof_Tickles92 I wouldn’t say lack, more like they either see themself as undoubtedly correct because they want to feel superior or unironically feel like doubt for their view is an attack on themself so they make up a REASON why you would disagree. It’s a very feelings-based mindset but it doesn’t always mean that they aren’t intelligent or CAPABLE of seeing the contradictions (my brother is living proof- smart as hell but selfish and reactionary with a need to be right). They just more often than not choose not to because it would mean admitting they were wrong.
I've seen this before. You point out the flaws in their argument and they take 30 segues and then declare they answered the question. The only thing crazier is when you realize they really think they answered the question. You can't have a discussion with someone who only wants to dominate the conservation.
The fact this was six years ago and the first minute of this video hasn't changed people's opinions on Trump..
I only just found this series within the last couple months or so, and I've tried his advice. Knowing what to look for helps immensely, and keeping trumpets' feet to the fire is amazing to watch. I would rather they see the light, realize they're in a cult, and go home, but until then, I will settle for the satisfaction of watching them implode
"Who is the bigger fool, the fool, or the fool who follows him?" This brings so much more clarity to why people like Paul & Morgan, Girl Defined, and the Transformed Wife got so huge.
The one thing I think this video is missing is that it doesn't offer an explicit countermeasure to these tactics. You end by telling us to not try beating them at their own game, but you don't offer us a way to thwart this disingenousness.
Speak truth to people who listen and ignore the ones who do not. You can for example(like Shaun often does) take videos of far right conservative talkers and break down why what they're saying is wrong and stupid without ever once actually engaging with them. They COULD try doing the same but when they aren't in a room fast talking and insulting over people...it's a wee bit harder to employ that same strategy.
To add on to what the other person said, if you find yourself dealing with this tactic the best thing you can do is recognize the attempt to control the conversation and simply bring it back to the point. They'll never concede, but it will make them look foolish if they continue to dodge the issue at hand, which can be enough.
What I love most about "this guy's" disingenuous apologies is the fact that he always reads them in a way that makes it clear that he didn't write them. It's the sarcasm of that attitude that makes it all the more revolting.
lotta comments doing the thing this video is about and yall are replying to them. listen firends. I get it. but quit sorting at comments by newest lol
"No! I'm almost ENJOYING my anger!"@@TheRatsintheWalls
actually that was a reference to a luke correia video
But for real, if the video mentions trans people even tangentially =>
Video starts, scroll down, newest first xD@@TheRatsintheWalls
Way more people need to see this series
I agree, it helps to understand where all the sudden passive aggressive rage comes from, whenever I bring up facts they dislike. It made no sense, used to think some of leftists are just crazy, but now I see what they were after.
This is one of those things that I know and experience, but I can't articulate until seeing this. I will now binge the rest of the series.
This is great! Awful funny how there are 3.1k dislikes yet there are pretty much no negative comments. Any argument they would make would be shredded apart by the video itself!
this video aged well... the presidential debates this year are a fucking joke
ok???
These are some of the most toxic comments I have ever seen
Two years later, and this level of toxicity no longer fazes people as much. It's become the new norm on the internet. Help.
This is American Politics. This happens in damn near every comment section with Politics, either two sides flinging shit at each other, or one side being an echo chamber.
The fact that America elected somebody who bragged about sexual assault and there are still people who defend him to this day tells me everything I need to know about America.
most presidents and politicians were on Epstein island so...
Whatever you do don't search Joe Biden Sniffing.
Worst mistake of my life.
@@Charlie-uz8vb yeah, they elected 2 in a row. Crazy that you only seem to care about one though
I quit my schools debate club, because they switched from debating to something that more reflects our political concepts surrounding debate. In that framework the audience chose who won the debate.. even if they had no understanding of what exactly we were debating. We didn't have to debate well anymore, or understand our argument. We just had to sound like we knew what we were talking about. I suspect this was to push students to have more interest in politics, but if anything it pushed me away from how political debate was structured. It was nonsense, and sometimes broke out into actually just fighting in front of adults. I felt like I was there for entertainment rather than a display of knowledge on the topics we discussed.
6:00
Political debates are rap battles where rhyming and flow have been banned.
Love the subtle 4chan logo on the alt-right guy
It's not subtle at all, but that's the point.
@ Wdym?
4chan made me a braindead reactionary, and that is not a joke. Dangerous place. Luckily I have returned from my braindead state, though.