Medieval Fighting was kind of... Insane: Metatron REACTS
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- Опубліковано 26 вер 2024
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On this video I'm reacting to a very popular video about how insane Medieval combat was. This appears to be a very fun youtuber who went to some Buhurt guys to experience combat in plate armour. The video is really fun and everyone seems pretty cool, but in my pedantic nature, I have a few things to say of course. I hope you enjoy
Here is a link to the original video, check the channel out!
• Medieval Fighting was ...
Medieval combat in armour is a quite complex topic and one of the main aspects to get it right it to try it in historically accurate kits. From the materials used to the shapes and forms, many things will influence the outcome of such experience.
But most importantly, when it comes to plate armour specifically, if it's not made specifically for you, in other words if it's not tailored to your body, the experience you will have will be infinitely different from the experience of a real Medieval knight, whether it be on the battle field or whether it be during a tournament or joust.
The importance of form cannot be over stated for plate amour to work as intended.
Risk management is also another important factor when discussing how "insane" Medieval combat was. Modern Medieval sports often do not represent well the type of risks Medieval people were willing to take once again changing the way we perceive the experience.
A good example of this was the fact that he found fighting with the visor down the entire time extremely tough, for the breathing and in general over heating.
We know from iconography that many Medieval knights decided to lift their visors in combat.
#mythbusting #medieval #knights
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Ciao Metatron, cosa ne pensi della mitologia vedica?
you should pin this or people wont see it
I may actually check out the sponsor not only because I like your content but also because my wallet is worn out.
Stainless steel can be far harder then plain hardened steel but most could never afford such high chromium near no nickel steel alloys.
steel plated with chromium from chromium trioxide & sulphuric acid being very dangerous to inhale long term has a vickers hardness of 1060 or shy of 700 Brinell.
18% higher chromium steel or chrome plated steels are to hard for armour on tanks or vehicles as it very brittle.
You want about 600 vickers or 400 Brinell for steel armour on vehicles like tanks or AFV's for perspective.
Other material can be harder but they do not fracture in the manner of steel alloys.
A martensitic stainless steel of 410, 420 as it ranges from 400 to 600 vickers as a rule of thumb being the range desired for iron armour.
I will say this Metatron no mass production company is going to make a full suit of armour of 410 or 420 as it would be to expensive though doable which no customer demand would realistically exist.
I rather use Pearlite which is ceramic like steel containing roughly 1/16th to 1/8th Cementite for weight depending on the desired properties.
More cementite it is harder to work & brittle while lower easier to work but softer.
Pearlite has hardness of 400 to 700 which is usable for armour & cementite prevents rusting as much as stainless steel roughly but is not very aesthetic to most people eyes but a better suited material & much cheaper.
Much of metallurgy as former Mechanical & electrical fabrication engineer till my failed health is matter of compromise as no perfect material exists with minimising cost as much as possible always present.
Lose fraction of the quality but 1/2 the price & you dominate the market except for custom pieces to for clients with more money then sense which such people are an anomaly.
I will make some anything they please out of any material they please as long as they pat me for my time & accept that it will not be cheap or quickly done.
Singular odd requests require retooling which is a significantly large investment.
Some jobs about 1/2 the cost just went on the tooling & nothing else.
People say to me I got the money till I give them the estimate for £3500 in tools alone & then they back peddle.
Let alone you them 5 digit figures.
Why I always take a minimum of 1/2 the payment up front!
The amount of people that waste your time & then claim you are many ism's but if you want job done right you have to part with cash which most can't or never had it to begin with.
I don't even talk to people most times & just write then hand an rough itinerary with costs & continue drinking my beverage.
The amount of people that have wasted my time that I could have pent sipping tea or drinking bear because they want to think they are wealthy which is laughable!
My income when working was modest & most people really have no idea what real riches are.
Hey Raf, I do Buhurt and my blacksmith uses spring-steel fyi. Btw, great video as usual. Thank you sir.,
Thanks for the react!! I loved your input. Also, I 100% was trying to show off with the kicks 😂👊
Hey there, thanks for stopping by and leaving a comment. Very much appreciated! I’ll look forward to checking the rest of your content out!
Wholesome interaction, good on the both of you!
It looked to me like the kicks were defeated more by inexperience/ unfamiliarity w/ the armour than by technique or appropriateness to the combat style.
@SenseiSeth you know side kicks don't work!
My two favorite content creators talking to each other? 😍 Collaboration when? 😅
"Not all gladiators died." I mean, I'm pretty sure they did: I haven't seen any recently, at least.
Sounds like someone didn’t look hard enough.
😂
Quick question, did any of you see my comment/response? I am just wondering if it just disappeared.
@@timothy4664 seems to have disappeared.
@@timothy4664 I don't see it either
Experienced "helmet horror" during military service when I had to combat drag the biggest guy in the company im full NBC gear.
It was an exercise to simulate a medevac under fire, and after dragging him 75 feet and over a barricade to the extraction point, I nearly ripped my gas mask off in pure panic. Not a fun experience.
I've done it too. It's brutal.
I don't have too much experience with gas masks, I only used one during two different drills, but when they talked about helmet horror I immediately thought that a modern version of that would probably be with a gas mask.
The clammy plastic sticks to your skin..... It's how it stays sealed.
"80 lbs. of armour is too heavy."
* Thinks about the loadout I carried around in Iraq and laughs nervously*
It wouldn’t surprise me if you ended up carrying more weight than the average Medieval Knight.
Yeah I don’t think most people realize how heavy modern weapons and armor weigh. I bet a fully loaded military rifle weighs more than double that of most medieval polearms.
when i was doing the military service as as a NCO (as MP) in training we did the camps marching etc in 41kg gear (full on bullet proof west with 2 plates) backpack etc. you get used to it after few week of training
@@The_Somewhere_Monarch definitely, average sword is 3 lbs, a polearm is 5lbs, an m27 is 8lbs unloaded
* laughs in spinal compression
Seth is a trooper. he did a multi-part series where he learned various different martial arts. I think this is part of it. He's done Sumo, catch wrestling, and a bunch others
It's funny how much into Sumo he got
Yeah he's very into sumo now. He should go to the US sumo open
I really enjoy sensei seth he's reignited my interest in martial arts
I think it was like a year or more long journey of various martial arts. He's amazing!
@jamesbeach7405 I think he did actually.
I've done some full contact stuff with flat edge weapons and real armor. That armor is not good. I'm 6'1" and 190# my suit weighs about 56lbs and it is hardened steel and even after heavy use only has superficial dents and scratches. I wouldn't let anyone get hit with a dane axe wearing that flimsy armor. If that big guy had actually been trying to hit him as hard as possible in a real fight he would have critically injured him in one blow.
I 100% agree, my thoughts exactly
That armor isn't "flimsy" at all. It's decent armor. There always seems to someone tho who is an "expert" despite the fact that their scope of experience "some full contact stuff".
@@mattjack3983 No one is trying to be an armchair warrior, we are just disagreeing about the kit. You think it's good armour, that's ok, that's your opinion and it's respectable. I agree with the OP that I wouldn't consider that armour good at all, but perhaps the term "flimsy" was indeed not the best descriptor.
There’s a marked difference between stainless steel, mild steel, hardened steel, and titanium armor. Though titanium isn’t the best for some parts of the body, the rigidity and strength of it makes it very useful for protecting your head and spine. Stainless steel is still steel, and it’s used to great affect. Mild steel rusts. Hardened steel rusts a lot but can take a considerable amount more damage before failing. It’s a general rule that if you are going to go full contact, skimping on armor quality can be deadly. From what I have learned, hardened steel and titanium are the way to go. And that 80 pounds is mostly extra padding, most of the time so much that a time period accurate suit would not have due to lack of mobility. Another thing that these burhurt things have going for them is modern steel.
@@metatronytIt was definitely the term "flimsy". I've been a dedicated Buhurt practitioner for almost 6 years now. This is pretty standard armor for the sport. There are much better armor kits available, but even this middle of the road kit Seth is wearing would cost a person at least $2,500. You want something better and the cost could run you as much as $5000, $6000, $10,000, or more depending on how high quality you want. The hits in Buhurt are very hard, and even the top of the line armor gets damaged literally all the time. I have a top of the line kit that cost me about $8000 in total, and very rarely do I compete in an event where something doesn't get damaged or broken. In 15v15 event, it's pretty common for a third of the fighters to have a malfunction with their armor, or for something to get broken during the fighting. Damn near any event you go to there is an armorer's/blacksmith booth or tent set up, and there always a bunch of guys there getting last minute repairs done and things replaced. The armor kit that Seth is wearing really is just standard grade armor that most guys start out with (unless you have the money to afford the best armor) and even the high quality stuff dents and breaks under enough punishment.
"do stainless steel float ?"
Technically yes but only in mercury...
Well if using that then everything can theoretically float… in many ways too…
It should float in the space
Technically you just have to displace the water for stainless steel to float. 🤔
🥺
👉👈
It also floats on molten gold!
@@decogaio true but I wouldn't swim in molten gold... I wouldn't swim in mercury either but gold would be even worse
'Stand still, let me swing at your shoulder with this great axe. As shit I missed, woopsie!'
To be fair, he didn't stand still.
Here, you can keep the axe, I think it has some bits of your colarbone stuck to it. Man, I love these guys.
As a buhurt fighter myself, you don't hit people with an axe in the shoulder for a demo, that's just a prick move. I would love to see you watch the videos of Igor Parfentev, they are amazing. Also check out the 150 vs 150 battle of the nation fight, that was simply amazing.
Yeah, that was really cringe. I got the impression these guys were trying to make their sport look as hardcore as possible, but then it ends up being on Seth's channel alongside real professional fighters he's collaborated with, who are generally very gentle and humble by comparison.
So happy Seth went to Carnage.
@@jimjambananaslam3596 yeah you could tell by the fact they had ZERO sense of humour. Trying too hard to be edgy and look hard core
Hi Metatron, I'm a structural fabricator and welder by trade. Most stainless steel are hard by composition as well as by hardening. I'm fairly certain that most stainless steel have about 15-20% chromium which is what makes it harder by default vs quenching or tempering etc. I am not an expert on metals but as metalworker I do get the basics. I'm sure there's a lot you could look into on this if you wanted. Hope this helps ☺️
Harder on the MOhs scale vs. harder in terms of kinetic resistance/deflection are different things. Chromium is extremely hard, but does not have a very cohesive structure on its own, which is why it's combined with steel. The problem with stainless steel in a structural capacity is that the higher chromium reduces the amount of bonds for the carbon, which does make stainless steel more corrosion resistant but a 1 inch stainless steel bar will have much less strength than a 1 inch high carbon steel bar.
@@TwoKnowingRavensbut by God is stainless plate an absolute cunt to drill, burns out drill bits like no tomorrow,
stainless is considered soft in construction
As always, it depends on the alloy. Most common stainless steels are not as hard or tough as properly heat treated medium/high carbon steel. The high-performance stainless alloys are typically much more expensive, harder to machine/form, and require more complicated heat treatment.
We welders ain't metallurgist
@@JohnLadanexactly right and put much more concisely then my attempt at explaining
10:06
I believe what you are trying to say, is that these people using their 77lb armor and blunted weapons, is like if there was a recreational live fire sport using a sort of EOD suit for protection, and small caliber arms. Not anything even remotely close to what is standard for 'modern' warfare.
Yeah, "it's like an airsoft or paintball to modern warfare" seems like a far better comparison than "it's bit like being Roman gladiator - not all of them died"...
The guy seems to barely be wearing any padding under that armor, poor guy got pummeled.
Seth is a fighter i think he alright
@@BahasaMan-vt4hi Axe > martial artist.
@@Naptosis if you do a combat sport you can take damage. Seth is a figther that why i said he fine
The experienced guy wasn't very reassuring when his helmet jammed. He just kinda fiddles, pulls a bit off, then waits and waits. Seemed like a not great reaction when a total beginner might be freaking out cos they can't breath.
I've often found the key to great teaching isn't encyclopaedic knowledge or skills, but the ability to impart that knowledge or skills, and for dangerous sports especially, a calm reassuring manner.
@@BahasaMan-vt4hi Being a fighter just makes you gather more injuries faster!
Hi Metatron! Buhurt fighter here! Although armor is thicker and naturally heavier to try to protect ourselves better, it is truly still a blast! I think one of the pulls to it is its probably the closest to actual fighting with limited regulation and rules that allow for a much more open "playbook" so to speak which opens up the freedom a lot more. Not to mention there are very few if really any other combat sports that are actually team based and use actual weapons. So overall a very nice experience! Circling back to the authenticity, yes most sets are not the most authentic, most of these kits have to add features for optimization and or safety. Also titanium is becoming much more frequently used because it can be thinner AND lighter, which overall lets us fight longer. I use a 2 handed mace and a late 1300's english kit. I also used to use a frogmouth ;) also as a final note, Brawl fights the purpose is to knock your opponents down, duels are meant to get points via strikes. Also also, these guys aren't testing strikes properly. For new recruits we always start with soft taps and build up till they feel something. If they really feel it we stop. If they are good we put them in.
I've always been kind of turned off by buhurt because of how awkward and inauthentic it all looks. And the weapons seem more like a hindrance than a help, so it usually just devolves into the world's most clumsy and silly wrestling match. I get the appeal, would like to participate in it sometime actually, but it's definitely less fun to watch than more lightly protected, point based combat
Being completely serious it's a money issue. If you have more money you can get a cooler looking kit. If you're balling like that do it. @@georgiykireev9678
@georgiykireev9678 I definitely agree that its more of a do rather then watch thing rn. Thats a lot of the reason why it hasn't gotten more popular then it is. There are events and organizations like AMMA that are reallt starting to try and steer towards a more fan/spectator focused atmosphere. But yea on the surface it looks like clumsy fighting but theres a lot of technique involved. Also weapons are definitely still viable, however you're right in a sense. Its easier to grapple someone down rather then strike them enough to pain them down. And the final point I'll add lol is the misconception that this is trying to replicate medieval combat. Its actually trying to come closer to replicating tourney medieval combat (minus the jousting) lol
@@ethanjames7857 Are they trying to push duels as a spectacle instead? I'd wager those are much more interesting to watch.
That's not what we do at Iron Wolves. 😂
Someone’s arm gets cut off. “It’s a flesh wound!”
Tis but a scratch.
I used to be an adventurer like you but then I took an arrow to the knee
It’s the holy hand grenade!
That's just a scrach 😂😂
What are ya gonna do? Bleed on me??
Buhurt armor is thicker, for safety due to the absurdly heavy blunt force trauma meta.
Since all thrusts are illegal, only blunt weapons are effective. To counter act the blunt weapons they make the armor 2x heavier than historical armor with thickly padded gambeson all throughout (including the legs) all of which is not historical.
To make matters worse to combat the heavier armor they now use absurdly heavy weapons and swords. The swords weigh twice the amount they should and messers/falcions are super thick and are more axe-like than sword like. (Which is a huge misconception of the falcion)
So much so that the falcion is now the most favored anti-armor weapon in modern buhurt because they deal more impact than axes of comparable size.
You can see that the buburt practicioners lack any form of elegance or grace, and possess little skill comparable to how actual knights fought, because the sport has been reduced to a bash fest.
Not to mention everything weighing twice the weight makes the armor look funky and the weight really shows when you watch them fight.
The combatants easily trip, and get dizzy under all the weight.
I have reapect for those who play the sport but as someone who appreciates the history I can't help but to cringe.
This is why I love harness fencing and I aspire to one day participate in fights akin to what dequitem does in his channel
The tl;Dr is that Bohurt is a contact sport about hitting people with bludgeons with the opposite weight distribution of actual bludgeoning weapons. It is about as representative of historical combat as contact sports with foam weapons such as Dagohir or various LARPs.
@@nevisysbryd7450 Most of the grappling is fairly on point. I do agree that the falchions are a bit odd in this sport. Not real falchions, even though I have one and use it sometimes. Only because I can't use a warhammer.
There are some very skilled guys in Buhurt. There just happens to be a lot more less skilled ones. It takes time and lots of training to get good in armor, even for harnisfetchen. The average person only has so much time to dedicate towards training that only the competitive people tend to really look good fighting. And the armor is not twice as thick, it's pretty comparable to historical thickness, except for the helmet, you are 100% correct there. It's twice as thick for safety reasons. You're not wrong about the rest really.
@@RyanKrauss-oc7bq I imagine the grappling is, yes. And the combat with foam swords has similar spacing and some of the footwork concerns and does a marginally better job of simulating the speed of a real scenario (unarmored combat) than Bohurt does armored.
It is all sport activities at the end of the day, with varying degrees of fidelity to historical combat. None of them perfectly replicate it, and while HEMA by far comes the closest (when set up properly towards that goal), it always has some infidelity, too, since it has to in order to be safe.
@@RyanKrauss-oc7bq Interesting to know about the thickness (besides the helmet) being historical. I wonder why the armor tends to be so heavy In buhurt? Is it all from the excessive padding?
Can you be exempt from the excessive padding if you wear full plate harness with nice pauldrons that leave no gaps on the top of the shoulder? Or can you replace the excessive padding with chainmail?
Just curious what causes the weight discrepancy and the bulkiness of buhurt armor. You seem to know more than me.
I also didn't know they banned Warhammers
Hello Metatron, 80lbs is fine for Buhurt, I've worked a bit with the french buhurt federation, and because it's a tournament armor, it has to be heavier and offer more protection (you're taking axe hits for a few minutes at a time). Also, being a blacksmith, i can say that stainless steel such as 304L or maybe 316 is fairly similar to mild steel (so quite an appropriate choice for armor) however it is harder and stronger. So nothing wrong with that !
From what i've learned in the french buhurt federation, modern buhurt is a modern take on the "pas d'arme", wich was a form of tournament where two teams on foot fought until one team surrendered. Old buhurt (or béhourd in french, wich refers to an activity done inside "hourds", wich is basically wooden fences and structures, usually built around the arena) would have been done on horseback, with thick Armor, and using wooden clubs. However pas d'arme would have also sometimes been done inside an arena, being in a way a kind of buhurt. And this has been modified today to be safer, with restrictive rules on stabbing and better armor.
So overall, it's not reenactment, armors have to be coherent, however the rules are modern... But it's not that far from a pas d'armes, so it's not pure fantasy, it still makes sense.
How about AR-500 steel?
@@TheCyndicate hardened steel is AR500. AR500 isn't a kind of steel, it just means the Steel has a hardness of 500 brinell, wich any hardened steel will have, and actually you can go beyond for a knife steel. But an armor needs to take heavy hits and not break, so they are usually tempered down to soften and give elasticity... Or aren't tempered at all like mild steel or iron armors, wich will deform and absorb the blows (it is said in buhurt that mild steel helmets are those who protect the best, they absorb the energy like a car frame that deforms)
At 5' 11'', 180 pounds, and healthy/fit, I could comfortably tolerate 50lbs of additional weight for a few hours, during heavy physical exertion. Anything over that would be absolutely crushing.
I once took a backpack filled with 70lbs of stuff on a 4 day hiking trip. It was hell, the worst physical experience I've ever had in my adult life. And I've been hit by a car at around 15mph; even that was better, and took less time to recover from.
You should just work out some more.
In the Army, midway through Basic, we had a 15-mile hike, and we were required to carry a 50-lb. duffel bag with a few changes of socks (you can guess why). At the time, I was 19 years old and in the best physical shape of my entire life, but I still found it difficult towards the end.
Carrying 70 lbs backpack is much, much more difficult than wearing 70 pounds of armor. The armor's weight gets distributed along your entire body; the backpack just strains your shoulders and your back.
When I was 16 I went canoeing in the Quetico for 4 weeks. The gear I was carrying weighted 50 lbs. Then we had to portage the antique wood canoes made by the Dakota on our shoulders. At first I cried. Then I “manned up” figuratively speaking. I was in such good shape when I got back home. I felt so good about myself. It was not easy though.
One time I fell back with a pack on. I was like a turtle on the back of my shell. And of course it was raining out. I laid there for about 20 minutes before one of my cohort came to find me.
@@Aidames And legs, and neck, and torso... And the human soul. And fun; fun was the first casualty.
I'm a finnish jouster, or learning how to joust, i use a late 14th century churburg armour. I practice everyday, and I hope i can soon have my first joust.
Voiko sut nähdä hämeen keskiaika festareilla?
@@lehtju4waif5ahk49 mahdollisesti siellä käyn tänä vuonna, haarniska päällä kattelee mitä markkinat tarjoo. En valitettavasti ole osana missään esityksessä.
@@lehtju4waif5ahk49 mahdollisesti siellä seikkailen panssari päällä. en ole valitettavasti missään esityksessä.
I'm just impressed that you have a horse lol!
@@lehtju4waif5ahk49 tietenkin, tuu vaa tervehtii!
Yeah, Seth is not going for historical content but the martial aspect. The fighting, and the jokes. FWIW he has some good videos with Jesse Enkamp who you just reviewed.
Sensei Seth is super entertaining and has grown a lot as a martial artist and UA-camr over the years, it's been fun to watch his journey.
You should cover Seth's video on pankration, I saw a small channel focusing on Greek combat sports history (namely pankration) say that the people he went to got a lot wrong. If that's true it would be nice seeing a larger channel help correct the record.
Can I get a link to that channel please?
You should watch Seth’s more recent video where he visited Carolina Carnage (in February this year).
It is a much better representation of Buhurt as a sport and high level competition
This is more about fun than actually teaching historically accurate combat. As long as we keep that in mind we can sit back and be entertained.
When I first saw this video a while back, I remember being very upset at the lack of safety for the content creator that these practitioners took. It felt more like new recruit hazing than let us introduce you and your audience to our cool sport. Lets see if it is as I remember it.
Yeah, striking his shoulder like that felt a bit unnecessary
It's that.
I’m a buhurt fighter in Louisiana, you ain’t lyin about how HOT that kit is!
Stainless can absolutely be hardened. I have a RoA helmet that’s stainless, and it’s thicccc. The helm in total weighs about 20 lbs, and that comes with the territory with that material, but that’s also because that style of helm has a massive amount of metal and I have an extra plate pack in the mail around the neck. It adds weight, but it means I’m not required to wear a gorget (which I hate).
I’ve actually been wearing my Norman helm more because of the breathability. Helmet horror is absolutely a real thing, which Seth learned about the hard way.
The armor will dent…that’s a part of it. It’s hardened, but it’s also made to take damage. We go into this sport knowing that this armor WILL eventually fail. We are constantly doing maintenance on our kits or replacing pieces. It’s expensive, it’s labor intensive, and it’s an absolute passion.
We do it because we love it. We do it for the brutality and the violence. We do it for the historical artistry and culture. We do it for the camaraderie. We do it because buhurt is love!
Long time fan of the content Metatron! Creator to creator, you’re incredible things. Can’t wait to see more!
You can absolutely harden stainless steel *depending on the alloy*, you probably have hardened stainless kitchen knives right now. Even non hardenable alloys of stainless are harder than mild steel though, stainless was popular in the SCA, which if you are familiar, has people hitting each other HARD with heavy sticks.
Anyone else imagine some firefighter showing up to a meet for that kind of thing, and just tanking on other people? Heavy gear isn't just a weekend thing for them, so they'd have way more endurance for that kind of exertion.
I ran across Sensei Seth's channel pretty recently, and I really enjoy his content. His "I Trained Like a Ninja Turtle," video is pure gold.
08:46 M&B Warband memories 🥰
I think one point of denting stainless armor is that it can be dented. makes the fight more fun when you can see the results.
As a blacksmith (mission forge is my channel) I can tell you with certainty, that you can harden certain stainless steels. Just like regular carbon steel, not all steels can be hardened, same goes for stainless. The hardening process is different compared to plain carbon steel, but you can do it.
Ive been in buhurt since 2017, and fought with/against jeff multiple times. Good guy. Stainless armor is more used for duels though some guys do wear it for melees like in the video. My kit, and most guys use hardened steel because it is stronger and doesn't dent as much. Many guys are switching to titanium due to the weight however
Hey Metatron, I'm only 2:40 into the video but wanted to point out that while I mainly do Buhurt and we mainly use hardened steel and some titanium, there are other leagues where stainless does get used commonly (bad idea, it is most often not tough enough). As for weight: average Buhurt kit is around 65-70 lbs but mine is about 100, so 80 is a bit heavy but not really anything crazy.
Anyway, I'll continue watching now lol cheers!
Badass name for man in 100 lbs of armor
32:55 - I like that he makes a clear distinction between history and sport there
I used to get really annoyed by things like the SCA, M1, and this sport here. At this point i’ve calmed down and while I still have issues with them I do have a lot more respect for them. It’s definitely difficult and tiring. I’m happy they are enjoying themselves too. And frankly they aren’t insulting me so I shouldn’t go after them
Hey Metatron, I used to practice this sport, and yeah the armour (kit) they gave him is on the cheap side it doesn't even fit him properly, generally titanium is allowed but every organization have variations on the rules and each country also have different regulation for safety, like maces cannot have more then a 1k in the head and hammers are usually not allowed, also no stabbing and you cannot half sword.
He got choked by the inside strap of the helmet not the breast plate, very common thing even see some fighters pass out from it, that is why I didn't use to strap mine but then the helmet might come lose and you are out of that round which is also true for any armour failure, if he couldn't close his visor and keep it shut, that would been one such case and cannot fight again until fixed or replaced, but in his case was just a secondary strap, his visor kept shut with a spring button on the top of the visor.
By the way I still have my armour, a Leeds style brigandine in titanium and some full plate legs fully articulated in hardened steel, but stopped training so didn't acquired the complete set.
nice video Metatron, its nice to see creators having such an open mind, im glad you had fun doing this
Sensei Seth has done quite substantial MMA and kickboxing training. He does know how to kick with power and drive, it was just difficult to do while wearing armor twice as heavy as real armor was, for the first time.
I sooo wanted Metaman to cut it off on that diatride 😂. He definitely doesn't know how real Seth is and came off as keyboardwarriorish, lmao. I just thought "bro, if you knew..."
Hell ye another Metatron video
Sensei Seth is one of my favorites along with your channel. Thanks for doing this video .
I've done tournament fights in very accurate 15th century plate and heat and breathing induced panic attack are a real issue. I am always impressed with the fitness levels of buhurt fighters.
There are a variety of alloys that are referred to as "stainless", you can harden some of them, but they will all be more brittle than a simple carbon steel hardened to the same degree. but that is less relevant if you are making the armor very thick.
I used to fight as a heavy fighter in SCA , and had 2,000 dollars worth of armor, and would often times come home with many bruises. Armor, even expensive armor, didn't protect you fully from the hard impact blows as much as you think. Training was very important to lessen the chances of a serious injury. The days of training, and fighting were some of my favorite times, and I really miss those days.
I make knives as a hobby and yes you can harden stainless steel. It takes very precise heat soaks at very precise temperatures for very precise times haha and then is usually air quenched or quenched between two aluminum plates.
Not exactly on topic, but that historically accurate suit you showed a clip of as comparison is absolutely gorgeous! I love that style of armor (is it French?), and that suit was beautifully constructed and so shiny!
Since it's a sport, you probably don't need hardened steel to avoid piercing weapons. Having a softer steel probably means that it's more likely to undergo plastic deformation, meaning that the energy from a hit will be used to deform the steel rather than transmitting the force through the body.
Think of it as crumple zones that are built into cars. You want the car to deform to absorb the impact.
It is not just to avoid piercing. It's to avoid deformation and your parts being good for garbage after a single tournament. Worse results when on the thinner parts.
Softer steel doesn't get you far, and is a recipe for injuries.
Sadly I can't link pictures of 3mm mild steel helmets results (minimum requirement for mild steel helmets), they would show the bad idea in lesser thickness.
@@Nemesiswh40k While I enjoy Buhurt with full contact in full steel I have come to appreciate SCA rattan more because you can do it for much longer in one sitting for much less $$$.
Kit in the SCA is lighter and lasts years in good cosmetic condition while even the substantially heavier built Buhurt gear gets beat to shit in a few months of full contact sparring. I can imagine how poorly it would hold up using softer metal. Dents would go from mostly cosmetic to actually making the piece dangerous to use.
You really don't want that armor to deform and break and get into you. Warriors died from deformed helmets they couldn't remove or really bad dented plates.
As soon as i saw the dent in the breast plate i would have noped out of there as soon as i saw the axe
23:05 Lol Seth's kicks are really really powerful XD You didn't know tho so we forgive you :)
So in general, you are correct, you cannot harden austenitic or ferritic stainless steel in the typical manner of quenching and tempering (exception for martensitic grades of stainless steel), however, you can harden those stainless steels by precipitation hardening, which improves solute distributions and increases its hardeness and strength. Its possible they do this when making these armor sets, but unlikely. The process involves a lot of time sitting at relatively high temperatures. In all likelihood, the armor is unhardened because of the difficulty involved (I asume most of these kits are handmade), and they are relying on increased thickness to do the protection.
2:52 from a 63kg buhurt guy, helmets off to you as well! and I absolutely love your work and have been a long time fan of your work protecting truth to educate folks for all these years.
2:29 very true.
7:40 with falchions specifically (been hit with one myself), in the medieval era, yes I would 100% agree, pointier stabbing weapons work very well. But for buhurt, since stabbing is prohibited as it is potententially and significantly more lethal (these are still people who might have to go to work the next day) and is avoided for this reason. Going for the gaps is also prohibited as well for the same reason (although this may vary depending on what armour they have on so do take this statement about gaps with a grain of salt)
8:19 depends on what you're doing. There's 3 types of fights: duels where deliberate and clean hits gain you points (if it's half deflected then it doesn't count). Profights: same as duels, but lasts a bit longer and grappling and ground fighting is allowed (as far as i know, i kinda avoid profights for this reason personally and perhaps someone who does this can answer this better than i could). And then you got melees, where you get groups of people to take each other down to the ground (there's a lot of technicalities with this: your hands not being allowed to touch the ground, if you fall on top of someone making contact your torso, you're out, unless it's your hand, etc etc.)
(Do note; rules change all the time so this info may become outdated so do take massive grains of salt with this)
8:26 you wouldn't be out of luck! Maces are allowed (has to be 1kg or under for safety reasons). War hammers and weapons with sharp and prominent points are prohibited though. The blade and points of swords are usually rounded off to a designated standard.
8:53 with the poleaxe you're only allowed to hit with the axe end and not the blunt end for safety reasons, and would be grounds for being disqualified and banned (wouldn't be surprised if it was in that order) if used against someone in buhurt.
10:16 again, very true.
12:40 think there's video of a guy in armour doing cartwheels so you wouldn't be too far off (depends on the level of mobility your armour allows).
15:19 (personal opinion so to each their own) i don't get why they chose stainless steel either, tempered steel is usually the norm and for good reason. Yes it will rust but that's nothing a proper wiping down and some WD40 can't fix after using it. Even if it's not used you could maintain your gear weekly as a preventative measure. Personally, I'd personally much rather the inconvinience come in the form of rust rather than the costs of repair, or outright replacement as well as my own safety long-term-wise. But again, you'd have to be realistic in that these people have jobs, and life gets in the way so they may be to occupied or simply just forget to do armour maintenance (i'm a hypocrite because I forget all the time😅) of which would be reasonable in that sense.
17:00 hence why I'm getting a hidden gorget with extra padding to protect those spots as they will be more likely to be hit and is harder to protect with armour.
17:18 if armour were to fail (a piece falling off/ breaking off for example they would usually be taken out of the list for inspection to see if the piece can be found, fastened back on, or temporarily replaced (usually borrowing from a friend) and if not, you would just be not allowed back in for your own safety.
17:32 bit iffy on this one, the leverage and the amount of force may work a bit differently with an two handed axe in comparison to a longsword; i would reckon the axe would cause a lot more significant impact (provided it was a solid hit for testing purposes) since it has a tendency to be made more front heavy along with being on a longer haft. If not on the location of mass on the weapon itself, then on principle of leverage, i'd have to respectfully contest the point you made here specifically.
19:26 yes, yes, 100% YES. As a smaller guy, wearing armour that isn't tailored to you or in your size entails being very uncomfortable, your range of motion may be compromised, and will be nonsensically heavier than it should be. And as you mentioned, the weight will sit incorrectly on your shoulders and MAN does it get tiring very fast when fighting. In my case, i'm getting a brigandine and splinted armour for my limbs in my size so that not only will it fit well initially, but is way more forgiving when my body gets bigger and stronger later on as these armors are more flexible (also easier to transport so yay:D)
20:58 titanium armour in buhurt is pretty common and is comically light compared to tempered steel although it will be much, MUCH more expensive to replace should it fail. For duelling and profights it's usually preferred for the reasons you said, although you may want to exercise caution in group melee fights.
22:38 yup. Thank God for people pointing it out when it happens and good referees to stop fights before injury occurs when pieces of armour falls off for whatever reason.
23:00 you couldn't have said it any better. Especially the standing on one leg statement, balance is everything in buhurt.
26:10 helmet horror is very real and can't imagine what it would've been like back then. Take care of your helmet, get accustomed to it and it will take care of you. Always check and replace the straps if needed so the straps don't break off like that.
31:28 tailored armour anyone?
Overall, good stuff honestly
The visor and the CO2 needing to escape the helmet is one of many reasons a lot of knights and men at arms would still use helmets that dont cover the entire face and opt for chainmail and gambeson hoods/coifs, isnt it?
If i was on horse back, in a line formation with polearms, or dealing with a shit ton of archers, sure i'd probably cover my face, but on foot i'd obviously use a shield and just try not to get hit.
I guess its a give and take like everything else in war.
I had sabatons, greaves, cuisse & pelyn, vambrace made of titanium, while helmet, pauldrons, gorget and gauntlets were hardend springsteel at BotN
sensei seth rocks and it is pretty annoying as a hema practitioner to see most people consider bohurt as "what medieval battles looked like" instead of hema. that being said most hema practitioners dont do armoured combat. they also rarely ever do large group combat so unfortunately battle of the nations/bohurt stuff is the most visually engaging. I just wish that more hema groups did harness/group combat aswell to round out the practice
Well If you want that with hema you will have Casualties because they would have real weapons and Not glorified bonks
@@laisphinto6372 bruh
There are many types of stainless steels. Some can definitely be hardened. For example looking at knife steels. You can harden Magnacut to 66hrc.
Oh nice, another knife guy! 🥰
I mentioned something like this a bunch on other comments under this video too haha.
I really appreciate your final remarks. Buhurt/HMB/IMCF is not historical reenactment, it's history-inspired sport, but a sport nonetheless. I've been following it since 2012 and I've seen the transition from a more historical armor (what sensei wears here) to a more sporting one (what the guy in brigandine had). And that's another advantage - the second dude's kit was not only titanium, but also designed to be better SPORT armor, and notice his helmet, especially the visor - it's not historical design at all, more like a steel (or titanium in this case) hockey helm. And that really helps with 'helmet horror' as they called it. TLDR: it's history-inspired, never meant to be accurate, and the second guy has ahistorical but sports-wise practical kit
Stainless steel is in fact quite hard. Anyone who've had to drill through it knows that it's a lot harder than drilling through mild steel.
However it's more brittle than spring steel since it doesn't like flex or torsion.
Except for MagnaCut, but that's developed for knives. Probably spring steel spreads force the best, and should also be the cheapest option for tough and hard steel both. Just gotta put up with the maintenance to gain these advantages.
. That would be really cool to watch. I don't want to do it myself, but definitely fun to see.
This is one of those sports I would love to try, but I also know I'm too scared of pain to do it, nor strong enough to cary all that armor.
The word "ekster" is Dutch for "magpie" (also note the logo).
Magpies are traditionally believed to hoard valuables.
never wore plate but reminds me the first time i put on modern combat armor for a field excercise. felt so clunky and bulky and i couldnt do anything right...then by the end of the training it worked, felt comfortable and was able to sit, stand, jump, do pushups, but more importantly do all the work i had to do wearing it.
maaaan this video makes me want to try getting into hema or buhurt(sp?)
There are lots of hardenable stainless steel alloys but they're very expensive and difficult to work with; extremely difficult to forge and to weld. Common use for hardenable stainless is knife blades.
I would guess their armour is made of 304 stainless, which is unhardenable but cheap and extremely common, and easy to weld.
Glad to see you've come around on Buhurt, at the end of the day its sport and entertainment so the accuracy takes a bit of a back seat. But it sure is entertaining and fun
Lots of people think stainless steel sounds cool for medieval things lol one of the best medieval 2 total war mods is called stainless steel.
Two men entered - One was scared and the other was afraid.
This resembles children "fighting," where they have no idea what to do so they just flutter about trying to look like they aren't scared. Hilarious stuff.
shut up bruh
I just want to say that I don't believe Seth's experience is a fair representation of the sport. I obviously can't say for certain, but I think they may have gapped him on purpose. I've been doing buhurt as a hobby for a while now and everyone I've met in the sport has been extremely welcoming. After all, it would be difficult to grow interest and participation in such a niche sport if the first practice ended in a hospital visit! Actually, he put out a video fairly recently from his time at the Carolina Carnage tournament back in February which I believe serves as a much better representation of the community.
EDIT: Also, the armor is usually either mild steel or titanium, the regulations are pretty strict. If someone showed up with stainless they wouldn't be allowed to compete for obvious safety reasons.
Sensei Seth has a newer video where he went to a buhurt tournament and had a blast.
the sports and SCA and such use stainless because you can use minimal heating to soften and shape, and it is still quite stiff, stiffer than mild steel of course, but does have to be a little thicker to keep that stiffness, and of course they can be hammered out again, but most folks don't have a kiln or forge big enough to temper the large pieces, and the lack of being able to do proper quench and temper is a factor for not using proper springy carbon steel.
For the question on if stainless steel can be hardened, I have a feeling the answer depends on what version of stainless steel. 416r is mostly stainless and is used in stainless firearms so it most likely can be hardened. Other versions might not be able to.
He did another video about 2 moths ago at a medieval combat tournament. That should be a fun one to react to.
You need to know that in Buhurt, the non-rust option is actually titanium. It doesn't rust, it's almost as hard as high carbon tempered spring steel, and it is 40% lighter. HOWEVER, it is MUCH more expensive.
Hello Metatron, I do like to watch your videos and your mindset. Stay the same...
Regarding your questions about Buhurt (Full contact medieval armored fighting)
- At the time of the video, there were no strict rules active regarding our armour. But we have to follow an authentification comitee, and rules for our kit.
so we have to have a certain thickness of different areas of our armour, and wie have to base is on existing pieces in museums, picures, statues, grave plates etc. from a certain region (Italy, England, Burgundi, france, Mongolia,...) and a time period of about 30 years. My kit is for ecxample a milanese export armour from 1450 with english shoulders and a barbuta (1470).
-The armour you find in the sport is thicker than historical existing pieces, as you mentioned, we have a differend level of risktaking and we need to go to work on monday. So the padding and the armour is thicker. The material is most of the time hardened spring steel, hardened titanium(lighter -40% and no rust!) or thicker mild steel that dents and has to be "counter dented" after fights, but that is pretty rare now.
- In the video they only did train the "multiplayer mode" the 5vs5, most of the time, where you use judo moves and pull/pushes to bring your opponent on the ground, or our do it with pain.
There is another "mode" called duels(same weapon category vs each other: Sword+buckler, Sword+shield, Longsword, Polearms), and there we use lighter kits with more mobility and lighter weapons. There you fight best of 3 rounds (90 sek/round) and get points for each unblocked full hit. (Head and torso give 2 pts and everything else 1pts). When your opponent loses his weapon or gets to the ground you get 3 points for it. But the focus is primary on the "fencing" and not on the throwing.
And there is a special mode of duels, called "pro fight", thats basicaly free weapon choice and MMA in armour.
The armour should not dent like in the video... idk why it is not properly hardend and we woudn´t use that. But as you said in your video, the armour is usualy made to meassure for you and he got probably a loner kit, from old stuff they had left or from ppl not fighting at that day and the same shape.
sorry for the bad grammar XD
Seth is a good guy. I have met him multiple times. Even competed against him once.
I love Seth’s channels. He’s pretty funny and he’s always a good sport when he tries other martial arts he’s not familiar with
The armor he wore was probably just a cheap and old set that they use for beginners.
I‘m pretty sure that seth told them to not really hold back so it looks good in the video.
It’s so funny to see the apartments in the background!
Sensei Seth has another buhurt video and a HEMA video as well.
If the padding is thick enough the denting might even reduce the blow due to the absorbed energy. It'll also make the hits much more controllable, so the sword doesn't glance off and hits some other, unintended spot. So there might be some reasoning behind using that kind of steel for these presentations, especially if the armor isn't used for any prolonged fight and can be just brought into shape again easily. Likely that's less of a hassle than keeping it free of rust.
Or maybe it's just because the banged up armor looks more impressive.
Seth is my favorites martial arts youtubers dudes definitely not a historian but hes skilled in a wide variety of styles hence the kicks and rhythm step
I'm also an occasional viewer of Seth's channel and I also admire the things he's good at, if you'd like to I'd recommend watching a knife fight video where he and other martial arts youtubers went against knife attackers without the ability to escape, that kinda emphasized the points you made about knife fights years ago.
Also about hardening stainless steel, yes they can be hardened but the techniques are usually more complex than carbon steel. Different kinds of stainless steel are also drastically different in both hardened strength and hardening procedure.
Martial arts journey is the channel for the knife video. Amazing video
@@jamescooke7243 Thank you both. 🤍
Now, do this for a campaign lasting months, in which you have several engagements, in the rain, snow, smoke, wind, and the occasional insult flung at you.
Thank you Metatron for making this video as well as the one about Jesse Enkamp, I have been consuming both HEMA and Martial Arts/MMA content for a few years now and I think both content communities are doing well in their respective jobs but these are the few instances where I see some goofyness coming from the MA/MMA content creators
No way that freaking beer can thick crap weighs that much. They sound like a can crusher when they move.
stainless is cheeper than most alternatives and it's more workable. stainless also work hardens so if it dents, that area after repair will be harder. And on the topic of it dentting, stainless will take hits a bit better because when it dents it will soften the blow some, transfering the impact more through the armor and padding and a bit less into you but at the cost of a lot of extra maintinance.
21:01 Fun fact: You can't harden titanium, you can harden a steel though.
But then Ti is hard and tough anyways, it usually doesn't spread out force as well as a spring steel though.
So in reference to that overbuilt falchion, in Buhurt and some other types of reenactment there’s this weird misconception that falchions are sword shaped axes and were intended as anti-plate armor weapons. I think this is based on some medieval artwork that does show people in armor having their helms cut through by falchions. But this is completely wrong in light of all the actual surviving falchions found in museums and private collections. But the misconception still persists
Ekster is Dutch for magpie (Pica) ironic name
Awesome video, as always. Love your content, have been following you for some years now, never commented because I had nothing to add.
Now, being a BOHURT fighter myself I have some info to add.
Yeas, there are some people that use stainless steel, but they are the few. Like you said ,can't be heat treated properly and it a hell to work.
That strike to the collarbone was extremely risky. An un armored person has way more mobility and speed than an armored one. I would have never allowed someone to be hit with a two handed axe if the one using it was un armored. In a actual fight, you would never wait to be hit without blocking, same way a boxer would never punch you in the face and not allow you to block.
Armors, like you said, vary in weight a lot. Mine is around 50 pound, but I have some heavier friends that have armors up to 100 pounds. Really depends on which role you assume in the lyst.
Lastly, like you said, we spend years training to fight and there for, years shaping our suits, the fact that that breastplate choked him, shows it's what we call a "loaners armor" and it usually for situations like this, where you want someone to try the sport.
He looks like he's trained in combat sports so it's ok, but usually I recommend people training and fighting in soft gear for a couple of months before jumping in the steal.
Overall, awesome video as always. Big love
senseiseth is a great channel! lots of funny & informative stuff there.
I surprised they didnt wear more layers underneath the armor.
Cause like when you watch battle of nations, those guys have at-least 2 layers of cloth under the armor and they have well fitted armor.
At some point additional padding raises one's body temperature too much, and can be lethal.
23:00 what about a kick to the knee? When I was a kid I almost broke my knee once because the guy I was fighting jumped to the wall behind him and wall-jumped with his full weight right on my knee... granted, I don't think anyone would be wall-jumping in medieval battles or duels (and I would have a completely different mental image if you told me someone wall-jumped during a siege), but I still think a kick to the knee could unbalance your opponent, opening him up for an attack... wouldn't recommend doing that against a shield wall though, you would probably end up hacked before you finished your kick...
In regards to stainless steel, some groups will have a set of loaner armor for people that want to try out the sport that they don't want to do a lot of maintenance on. And most armor in buhurt is either spring steel or titanium but you most certainly do see mild steel. The fact that it dents when hit actually absorbs a lot of impact. Many people prefer mild steel helmets given the increased resistance to concussions.
17:52 the biggest difference is that the other guys sword is way lighter
There are some types of stainless steel that can be hardened, but they were obviously not using one of those.
You can harden stainless steel, but you can't harden all stainless alloys. It depends what alloy that they are using. Some stainless alloys aren't magnetic, and can have only about 50% iron in the mix. Stainless steel though is magnetic, and has sufficient amount of iron and carbon to be hardened. To make it stainless it has a high amount of chromium in the alloy mix. My concern with hardened stainless steel is that it can be brittle. the armor could potentially crack rather than bend. I've never worked with armor, but I have worked as a machinist in the past and did work with some stainless alloys. Most I worked with were hardened stainless steel. Not Cutlery grade. i worked with mostly 15-5, and 17-4. They were used for flight and test hardware, and usually hardened to around 40-45 rockwell. I never worked with thin sheet though.
The amount of iron does not determine if a steel is magnetic or not. It comes down to if it was being made ferritic, martensitic or austensitic. It is a matter of the molecular grid that resides within the grain structure, so to speak. For example: When you bent non-magnetic stainless steel (martensite and austenite) the bent will become magnetic again, since the bending re-arranges that structure.
Maybe you want to check out MagnaCut, it's a very new steel and it can push both hardness and toughness, while maintaining the stainless property; mainly developed for knives, but it's stainless and both hard and tough. Fascinating stuff, I just love steel. But yeah, generally normal stainless steel gets brittle when you harden it. A hard blade holds an edge for longer, but it can also break more easily, so there are always pros and cons to choose from. But then I don't know much about construction and armor steels, and more about knife steels.
@@Leftyotism Well my knowledge of metalurgy is basic as to the hows and whys of magnetism. The only reason i included that bit is the common misconception that "stainless steel isn't magnetic. We used permanent magnets on boom lifts to move large chunks of stainless all the time. How ever there are non ferrous "stainless" alloys that people incorrectly label stainless steel. my use of stainless was machining structural components for aerospace use. pretty far removed from cutlery and armour, so the alloys i worked with have quite different properties. Generally my knowledge of the given metal was based on data sheet properties of the actual alloys i worked with.
@@angryroostercreations5194 I see, thanks for clarifying! 🥰
Quick note: 17-4 stainless steel is hardenable, but is more common in architecture or in the oil & gas industry, even in some firearms and aerospace industries. I primarily machine 17-4 in oil & gas tools as they have a longer lifespan and can hold a 44 HRC for high-pressure valves that are used to drill for oil & gas. Hope this was a little bit helpful 🫡
Martensitic stainless steels can be quenched and reach very high levels of hardness. It is also possible to achieve good hardness and toughness ratios, depending on the amount of carbon and other alloying elements.
Usually, when people think of stainless steel, they associate it with austenitic stainless steels, which are not hardenable, but are more chemically resistant.
The thing about Bohurt falchions is, they're used more like medieval maces than medieval falchions.
And that is for two reasons, maces usualy have a lower allowed mass than falchions and because a sparing falchion will inevitably be heavier than the actual historic falchion, therefore becoming a better bludgeoning tool.
To be fair on sidekicks Seth has been told many times sidekicks don't work, he has pulled it off a few times in more serious MMA type matches and he can put some serious strength into it, would it work against armor? probably not, but he's obligated to try; for the content.
Yeah, Seth is famous for his sidekicks. There are sidekicks in MMA - look at the Wonderboy. They aren't the strongest kicks, but Seth utilize them to get distance advantage just like the Wonderboy does for example. Seth is a big guy and if he can keep you at bay with sidekicks, you are done.
Clicked on the video for the fighting, stayed for the SEGA Dreamcast in the background.
17:43 thank you for this amazing video suggestion