Sauron prided himself on the Urak-hai, for he believed he had perfected the mess Morgoth had made with the Orcs. Same thing with the Olog-Hai and trolls.
@@GeekZoneMT, had they reached full deployment. That was Saruman's mistake. His first batch were really elite but the army sent against Helms Deep wasn't ready. That's one explanation I have heard for the apparent difference in battle performance.
@@newaccount8601, I can't remember exactly where I read this. It is just a fan theory without any kind of lore basis. It attempts to explain why the force sent to bring the Hobbits to Isengard was apparently so elite but the army sent against Helms Deep was standard cannon fodder. The theory is that with the first batch Saruman took his time trying to perfect them but when he needed an army quickly, standards were relaxed.
@@GeekZoneMT I've always been on the "they're different" side, which may be due to the separation of the 2 in D&D. But, since I've first heard you mention "they're the same" in a previous video, and doing some research, it is a fact. I may still be trying to get used to the concept, but still hahaha
I haven't read the books, so the Goblin King and his citizens being explicitly called "goblins" and everyone else being called "orcs", I assumed they were separate species. That's certainly helped by the goblins' diminutive size and CGI bodies in the Hobbit films, compared to orcs' human posture and makeup. I'm very grateful to have found this channel to answer all my lore questions. I didn't even know that Sauron invented Uruk-Hai, since the films make them out to be Saruman's creation.
@@GeekZoneMT Except by the Rohirrim commanded by Theodin King and Erkenbrand with Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas and with the Huorns at the Battle of the Hornburg. ;-)
Since the orcs were originally elves, twisted and perverted by Morgoth, it does come as a surprise that orcs could interbreed with humans. Humans and elves can interbreed, although it was not commonly done. Sauruman was originally the maia Curumo and was a servant of Aule, so he may have picked some knowledge about the creation of the dwarves that Sauron lacked and was able to finesse things a bit for the uruk-hai of Isengard.
Well, in his later years Tolkien was spending time rewriting everything. One of the changes he made was to change the origin of Orcs from Elves to Men. The creation of the Dwarves was kept secret by Aule. I doubt he discussed the details of what he did with anyone - I don't think Eru would appreciate it if he told his pupils. Furthermore, Aule created the Dwarves from scratch, from dead materials. That's totally different from breeding species for improvements.
Actually it was goblins that used to be elves. Irk-hai are hybrids between orcs and goblins, or sometimes orcs and humans. Orcs were always orcs from the day their race appeared.
@@cambuxton6835 "Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi [Elves] who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison , and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes." -- J. R. R. Tolkien (1977) The Silmarillion, Ch. 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
I am surprised that orcs which were originally corrupted elves could be improved by interbreeding with men while Tolkien's elves are depicted as superior to ordinary men in almost everything.
Hmm to be fair if he researched the Uruks that already existed it might have made it alot easier to figure out how to recreate them. Since he only had to copy the idea rather than come up with it.
Saruman and Sauron regularly communicated through the stones. It is likely that each picked up some of the secrets of the other, even if it was unintentional.
*Concerning the origin of the half-orcs, J.R.R. Tolkien suggested late in his life that: * "It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile."
I always held orcs and goblins different in my head in that goblins were more wild and primitive using stone weapons and leather armor with better quality equipment being stolen, whereas orcs had basic metallurgy and military ability using swords, plate armor and simple formations.
This is so fascinating. The difference between them. Mordor's Urukhai definitely seem more... brutish and simple than the Urukhai of Saruman. I'd almost say there was more complexity, yeah they can fight. But the Urukhai of Isengard feel more organized and better 'put together' as it were. It's kind of tricky to put into words. Also... What better timing than my bday for a Lotr Lore video xD
Well, that whole part about creation (of things) was inspired by religious myths we currently have. Just like rings were inspired by the Ring of Nibelung. So, at the start you had a song and the favorite son of the Creator corrupted it. In Christianity, the creator made the world with the word (if I remember my Old Testament correctly) and his favorite son was the one who raised up against him and who corrupted his creations. The whole Tolkien's creation story is in large part Christian creation myth. Now how that ties to your idea of metaphor for corruption that harms humanity? Well, human corruption was done by the Devil, the most powerful of angels who fell from grace and lead lesser angels with him. In Tolkien's work, orcs are the corruption of the creator. So I don't think that he wrote specifically for orcs to represent humanity's corruption, I think it does mean that but as a consequence of his basis of writing. Meaning, orcs do represent the corruption of humanity, but through the fact that he re-wrote Abrahamic religions creation myth where indeed the corruption found in humanity is a result of a fallen angel, the most powerful being after the creator himself.
@@Wustenfuchs109 To clarify; in Christianity the world was not corrupted by Satan (or Lucifer as he was called when he was an angel) or by the power of said devil but man was tempted by him into corruption through their own sin, and the natural result of sin is the corruption of intellect, will and the soul. Lucifer was also not a “son” of God but was a created being, there is only one “Son” of God, begotten and not created, and that would be Christ himself. Lucifer might have been the strongest of angels, he was described as one of the Seraphim which is the highest choir (type) of angels, but even the most powerful of demons (which is what an angel becomes if it rebels against God) is miserably outmatched by the lowest of angels because they are powerful only through God himself and once that connection is severed they too are corrupted and lose nearly everything they once were. Christianity is not a dualistic religion; Satan is nowhere near as powerful as God is, and as a demon he could be defeated by even just one of the lowest of angels should God will it. The type of corruption described in Christianity doesn’t come from Satan or any demon, it comes from separation from God and a departure from His will; sin. Although there are still clearly similarities between Christianity and Tolkien’s LOTR universe, Tolkien was Catholic after all and it clearly shows in his writing.
GeekZone do have any theories on how Sauron used the Hill Trolls to create the Olog-hai because its confusing to this day how he managed that. At least with the Uruk-hai its easily with men/orcs breeding together. Anyway keep up the good videos man.
@@psychotripnerdstuff in all honesty Tolkien was pretty ambiguous concerning their origins. Some of the Vala and Loremasters think the first orcs were corrupted Elves and lesser Maia, others think they were completely created in mockery from the earth. But Tolkien himself was never clear on whichever theory is the truth. Lorewise the answer is still open to interpretation.
As usual a great great video! What a great way to start the weekend! Thank you, thank you, thank you! Can’t wait to watch this a few times this weekend!
the uruk hai are my favourite "orc" like species in the LoTR series. And GeekZone is and always has been my goto LoTR content creator. happy to have been watching for years my bro!!
Hey Carl, I was reading some comments and they got me thinking: How did Sauron feel about Morgoth? Both before and after his banishment? Did he respect him? At least as much as a Dark Lord can respect anything? Aren't there references to Melkor worship among Sauron's forces? I'd actually love an episode on this if possible. I've always been both fascinated and perplexed by Sauron's actual beliefs and motivations.
If I'm not mistaken, you are Maltese, yes? Your English vocabulary is superb, and your accent and delivery are perfect for recounting the Lore of Middle Earth. In my opinion, you are one of the best narrators on YT. May the hair on your toes never fall off!
Great video! Just been thinking it is a bummer we've never heard of a 'good' Half-Orc (that is, it is unfortunate none were redeemed). While still evil, I believe that Half-Orcs would be redeemed somewhat quicker than the regular Orcs of Sauron & Morgoth.
Once again a superb breakdown of the lore leaving out no detail. The mentioning of the weakness if the orcs in sunlight made me remember something from the Silmarillion that seems to be a blurb from before Tolkien had his "orc nature " completely fleshed out in the cannon: there was a scene when Turin was taken captive by Morgoth's orcs. Beleg comes in to rescue him by NIGHT (!) but the orc camp is asleep (!) And so Beleg silently slays the warg sentries and begins to free Turin, who is unconscious and in a stupid after much torture, and he accidentally cuts him whilst freeing him from his bonds. Turin , seeing a shadow bent over him and thinking it is an orc captor come to torment him, slays his friend Beleg.
I don't know why but I was under the impression that goblins typically referred to the spindly wide eyed looking orcs from Moria and "Goblin town" (I can't remember the name of the mountain), where as Orcs were typically the more upright humanoid ones from Mordor and Dol Goldur.
Yeah it's a common misconception, probably because the term Goblin was used far more often in the Hobbit compared to the Lord of the Rings, so we associate it with the Orcs of the Misty Mountains :)
@@GeekZoneMT AAAAALSO, I almost forgot, in the Battle for Middle Earth 2 game (which is clearly canon .>) "Goblins" were a separate faction. They were pretty cool too, for what ever reason they could summon a dragon lol
Mordor vs. Isengard is probably name-brand vs. store brand: Saruman probably copied the trade secrets to the best of his ability (which was considerable), but I doubt he got it quite right.
Hey guys! Can you think of any other differences between the Orcs and Uruk-Hai? And do you think that there was any difference between the Uruk-Hai of Isengard and Mordor? As always subtitles are available and feedback is welcome!
The Uruk-Hai of Mordor seem to be more plentiful, but less skilled than their isengard Counterparts. This is mostly due to Sauron prioritizing quantities to swarm and overwhelm his enemies, While saruman, who had a lot less land to work with, prioritized quality, making the most of his small land and his orcs.
Physically, the Uruk-hai of Isengard seemed to have straighter legs than those of Mordor. I have theorized elsewhere that they may have had some man-blood in them.
Hey Geekzone, I was wondering if you would ever do a video regarding magic in Middle Earth itself. Maybe you've already done such a video and I may have overlooked it. However, I think it'll be interesting to know whether Dwarves, Hobbits, or Orcs were capable of using magic. I know elves have an affinity for it while Men dealt in it occasionally like with the Witch King.
It is impressive that Saruman discovered and perfected it as the Uruk Hai of Isengard seemed to be superior to even the Uruks of Mordor. The Uruk's of Mordor still seemed negatively affected by Sunlight, while the uruk hai of Saruman didn't seem to notice it at all and could cover great distances in the sun.
5:08 true point however in the film you would think when Frodo was captured and the orc and Uruk are looking at his mithril shirt the Uruk would have been the one to follow orders instead of the orc... The Uruk wanted the shirt for himself and to defy orders.
WOW. I had no idea there were half orcs in Tolkien works already. I am currently working on a story featuring a good half orc that travels along an avatar of myself in the lotr world. Thats pretty cool, I guess my story is gonna be midly cannon lol
I consider there is a difference between goblins and orcs at least for the films. It adds this level of slight convolution that makes the lore more enjoyable for me. Like the Goblins in Moria are actually half orc. I had lots of fun with it.
Personally, I've always kinda felt the same way regarding the difference in Uruks from Isengard vs. Mordor; though this impression was gained more so from the films than the books for me. Hard to say why really, but bottom line is that I would definitely agree. The destruction of Isengard was quite the blow to the military industrial complex of the forces of Sauron in Middle Earth, as it was the producer of the finest soldiers for the armies of darkness. Idk, just something to consider I believe...
Video suggestion; in the game shadow of war saruman says that it is his goal to oppose sauron with his own orc army. Now it’s not cannon obviously however it got me thinking if saruman had taken helms deep and the ents not flooded Isengard would he have turned on sauron and if so how would it have potentially played out. As always great video
Actually, that is canon. Saruman did betray Sauron. After all, he wanted the Ring for himself, build up his strength by conquering Rohan and then challenge Sauron. However, Saruman needed the One Ring to even stand a chance. But no matter how it played out, you would've had a tyrant ruling over Middle-Earth with an iron fist. Glad to hear that SoW did one thing right. Because apart from that, it's just one big mess lore-wise.
Did you say Sauron made the Uruk-hai? So both Sauron and Saruman both figured out how to make them? Is there any mention in the books where Sauron is said to have made them?
Regarding references they're mentioned in the Fellowship of the Ring, the Appendices and Morgoth's Ring. Here's a quote from the appendices that describes their first appearence: In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath. Boromir son of Denethor (after whom Boromir of the Nine Walkers was later named) defeated them and regained Ithilien; but Osgiliath was finally ruined, and its great stone-bridge was broken.
@@GeekZoneMT oooh thank you for the effort!! I remember that now but I always took Uruks as a subspecies of Orc and didn't link them to the Uruk-hai. Thanks for clearing that up! And thanks for honoring the video requests you get :)
So the Uruk-Hai is much better for an army because each member is quite strong but for exemple the the orcs from Gundabad can be extremely strong, like azog or borg?
Saruman is probably one of most intelligent entities in Middle earth. He was able to figure out how to craft his own lesser rings and he created Uruk hai warriors in no time...also gun powder. But he lacked heart, he was envious of Gandalf and he saw power of shadow and could not find any logical way to beat it without harnessing its own power. On question of more orcish and more human mixes. Well orcs are basically twisted elves and mix of elves and men can pick their destiny. Maybe same goes for half orc and human breed.
As far as i know, Sarumans Uruk Hai were a stronger and improved version of Saurons Black Uruks of Mordor. Sarumans Uruk Hai seem to be even stronger, bigger and potentially also smarter. Saruman seems to have been even more talented than Sauron in breeding and interbreeding species. They're both Maiar of Aule, but Saruman made frightening progress in a very short time when it came to industrilization and interbreeding.
About the Half - Orcs. I think that was what happened when a human and orc mated directly. Mostly humanoid with a little orcish influence. Basically the worst of both traits. But the Uruk-hai was the union of their best traits - selected for by breaking the humans into submission and repeated crossbreeding.
Also, goblins and orcs are different creatures in D&D. I'm not sure that Saruman actually developed his own Uruk-hai or if they were assigned to him by Sauron. Saruman certainly did breed his own half-orcs and goblin-men.
I want to know why sometimes their uruk hais others black uruk hai and yet more just uruks but also although they aren't cannon in the films gimli seems to say oro-kai they call themselves the fighting uruk hai at the battle of helms deep (many times) so what is the difference between them or is it purely aesthetics
I believe it's really just different names for the same creature. There might be differences between Uruk-Hai of different faction but they all had the same basic characteristics that made them 'Uruks'
In the index of Unfinished Tales we can read the following: _“Uruks - Anglicized form of Uruk-hai of the Black Speech; a race of Orcs of great size and strength. ”_ So it's the same creature, Tolkien just changed the term a bit to fit the English language better.
Isengard Uruk-hai seem bigger and stronger then Morder Uruk-hai, and I find it funny that the reason is most likely because because Saruman feed them better, while Sauron prop care more about mass production of soliders not giving much care in their treatment and training
My friend asked me yesterday something I cabt believe I never thought of; to what degree, if any did wizards need their staff? I could remember that in the book gandalf defeated the Balrog after his staff was shattered but gandalf makes a point of breaking Saruman staff and saying only his words have power or something to that effect. Any insight in this? Maybe a video?
I think that in the Hobbit movies they really messed up the orcs by making them almost half as big as trolls. I always had the orcish threat in my mind as great masses of wretched creatures. With orcs about the sizes of horses with thick armor the fights wouldn't be much of a fight.
Sauron's Uruks i think were also called Black Uruks of Mordor, and If my memory serves me right, according to the Sillmarilion the very first of their kind appeared around the last king of Gondor period, before the stewards took over. But for the most part Uruks remained a small elite force, by comparison to the generic orcs. Based on their habitat I also prefer calling them different subspecies or tribes. The Goblins for example, they belong to the orc category but I strongly believe they are very different from Mordor orcs, or Gundabad. It's like saying the Rohirim and the Gondorians are the same thing. xDDD
Keep in mind Tolkien was a linguist who created several languages for his own world. Or better yet, he created a world for his languages. He was seriously invested in those languages, and used terms he created to name the races that inhabited his world. But creating a language doesn't just stop at creating words, they also have to have a meaning. This requires the ability to translate those words into existing languages. And Tolkien did this for all of his races. For example, Quendi was translated to Elves, the English word for Noldor was Gnome in the early days, the Atani was the race of Men, Naugrim were Dwarves. The same thing happened to Orc, which Tolkien translated into goblin. This can be proven easily by the fact that Tolkien used the terms interchangeably (well, apart from his statements that goblin is the English term for Orc). We have accounts of Uruk-hai and Mordor Orcs being called goblin (I can provide the quotes if you like). Gundabad Orcs are a movie invention, not to be named in a book discussion. So in the end, goblin refers to the exact same creatures as the word Orc does. It would be very uncharacteristic of the Professor if he decided to throw a standalone English term to name one of his races, while leaving another term untranslated.
My view on the whole Goblin vs Orc (in LOTR) is that it is more of a station rather than a race so the weaker more servile are Goblins and the larger more warlike Orc's :) With the Uruk-Hai and Olag-Hai the free people where lucky that the movement of the ring forced Sauron's hand, as more time to create these the forces of darkness would have been unstoppable!
I know that this video is 4 months old so probably not going to get much if any response, but a thought just dawned on me. Tolkien at one point makes mention that although orcs are inherently evil by they're creation there may be possibilities for them to be rehabilitated if you will. Or that there is possibility of change in allegiance. Therefore I question, being half human, could urukhai be more so tempted to good rather than evil? It's an interesting concept to say the least
I doubt Uruk-hai were half human. They are treated very differently from Half-orcs within Tolkien's works after all. To answer your question if Half-orcs could be redeemed easier than Orcs, it might be indeed. Seeing as how one could even infiltrate Bree, I think they had a better idea about what is acceptable behaviour than Orcs to say the least.
@@MasterBombadillo true. In referring to the half human, I meant half orc men. I unfortunately wrote Urukhai by mistake. I do know that Mordor orcs and Uruks didn't see eye to eye, on many occasions but, were similar in thought pattern and behavior albeit one much bigger and stronger than the other. So I agree, Uruks may or may not be much more redeemable. Im interested in this thought of half orcs though. I would assume that they would be more redeemable. But, still the thought puzzles me... Orcs were inherently evil, yet Tolkien clearly insinuates that they could and did change allegiance from time to time. So really my question would be why? Was it because they could be redeemed or was it self preservation? It's a conundrum I just keep rolling around in my head when I look deeper into they're allegiances, to one another especially. Although judging from some of the conversation between them they were also cool with just leaving comrades to hang up in Shelobs lair. 😁 Maybe it's another one of those deep Tolkien mysteries we will never know.
I thought orks were created while goblins always existed. And also, what happened to the urki if they were so powerful? I find it hard that they all died out
I think this is one of the darkest aspects of Tolkien's work. Nobody wants to discuss it, but there's really only one way Sauron and Saruman could have bred orcs with humans and it sure wasn't by digging them out of mud pits like in the movies.
For one, it's a interesting detail that always bothered me, that orcs and goblins are actually the same thing, and Tolkien used the terms interchangeably. I always wondered about that because on the portuguese translation of LOTR (I'm brazilian) the only word used for them is orc, and never goblin. So it caught my attention. Also, wasn't there an intermediary breed between orc and uruk-hai, that being an uruk? I remember reading somewhere that the "-hai" part means "big" and uruk-hai would simply mean "big uruk". But I'm not sure if that's true, or if my memory's playing tricks
Uruk-hai is the plural form of Uruk. It's a Black Speech term used for the biggest Orcs at the end of the Third Age, but it used to simply translate to Orc-folk.
Tolkien had many theories about the origin of Orcs. Many of these he dropped, and in the end he had two dominant theories, but both have their problems. For a long time, Tolkien indeed said that the first Orcs were Elves that Morgoth had captured, mutulated and broken, corrupted until they became Orcs. However, Tolkien wasn't happy with this theory. For example, he couldn't figure out what happened to Orcs after they died. Elves go to the Halls of Mandos when they die, waiting to be given a new body with which they can re-enter the physical world. But if Orcs were once Elves, this should also be their fate. Tolkien didn't like that idea. His problems with the Elvish theory would result in him starting to rewrite The Silmarillion. After all, he thought that Men should be the ones that were corrupted into Orcs. After all, Men aren't bound to Arda after they die, so there are less problems with the afterlife. They aren't immortal so Orcs shouldn't be immortal either, and Men reproduce much faster than Elves too. However, he had to tinker with the timeline. In The Silmarillion as we know it now, Men awoke after the first time we saw the Orcs. So this didn't add up. Tolkien started to rewrite his tales to make it fit, but he wasn't able to finish it before he died. So in the end, it's up to you which theory you belief in. Elves or Men, or even both (I think we have a draft stating that too). Just keep in mind we can't give a definite answer.
I was a little shocked to hear that orcs and goblins were the same for Tolkien. If that's true, then fine, but you didn't provide references, since I'd like to check to be honest, not because I don't believe you, but because I'm just interested by this factoid. Great video by the way! Also, I think the Uruk-Hai of Isengard were also better trained and equipped than the ones in Mordor because in Mordor they were simply bred in large numbers, so there were too many to take care of. In other words, Sauron went for sheer numbers, whereas Saruman was more fixated on quality over quantity. It's my theory anyway.
I can help you with quotes and references that you can check. _"Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds)."_ - The Hobbit Preface _“And why dwarves? Grammar prescribes dwarfs; philology suggests that dwarrows would be the historical form. The real answer is that I knew no better. But dwarves goes well with elves; and, in any case, elf, gnome, goblin, dwarf are only approximate translations of the Old Elvish names for beings of not quite the same kinds and functions.”_ - The Letters of JRR Tolkien, #25 _“Also the Orcs (goblins) and other monsters bred by the First Enemy are not wholly destroyed.”_ -The Letters of JRR Tolkien, #131 _“Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitability) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be 'corruptions'. They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit, where orc only occurs once, I think), especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in. The name has the form orch (pl. yrch) in Sindarin and uruk in the Black Speech.”_ - The Letters of JRR Tolkien, #144 _“Your preference of goblins to orcs involves a large question and a matter of taste, and perhaps historical pedantry on my part. Personally I prefer Orcs (since these creatures are not 'goblins', not even the goblins of George MacDonald, which they do to some extent resemble).”_ - The Letters of JRR Tolkien, #151 This means that we should find that Tolkien used the terms Orc and goblin interchangeably in his works. When we read those works, we find that he uses those terms as synonyms indeed. _“Elrond knew all about runes of every kind. That day he looked at the swords they had brought from the trolls' lair, and he said: "These are not troll-make. They are old swords, very old swords of the High Elves of the West, my kin. They were made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars. They must have come from a dragon's hoard or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago. This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin; it was a famous blade. This, Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once wore. Keep them well!"_ - The Hobbit; Chapter 3 Notice that in this particular quote, Tolkien references to the Fall of Gondolin as the Goblin-wars. Meanwhile, we cannot find the term “goblin” anywhere in the Silmarillion, since he solely uses the term Orc for the stories we find in that book. Of course, there's also the fact that Elrond straight up translates "Orcrist" to "Goblin-cleaver". This is in line with the quote I provided from Letter 151: Tolkien preferred the term Orc to differentiate his creatures from the creatures we know from other tales. The later the drafts he wrote, the more he banned goblin from his vocabulary. Now, on to the next quotes. _“'Not a sound but the wind,' he said. `There are no goblins near, or my ears are made of wood. It is to be hoped that the Orcs will be content with driving us from Moria. And maybe that was all their purpose, and they had nothing else to do with us-with the Ring. Though Orcs will often pursue foes for many leagues into the plain, if they have a fallen captain to avenge.'”_ - LotR; Book II Chapter 6 _“If you have ever seen a dragon in a pinch, you will realize that this was only poetical exaggeration applied to any hobbit, even to Old Took’s great-grand-uncle Bullroarer, who was so huge (for a hobbit) that he could ride a horse. He charged the ranks of the goblins of Mount Gram in the Battle of the Green Fields, and knocked their king Golfimbul’s head clean off with a wooden club.”_ - The Hobbit; Chapter 1 _“2747 - Bandobras Took defeats an Orc-band in the Northfarthing.”_ - LotR; Appendix B _“Your grandfather Thror was killed, you remember, in the Mines of Moria by Azog the Goblin.”_ - The Hobbit; Chapter 1 _“Thereupon Azog came forth, and he was a great Orc with a huge iron-clad head, and yet agile and strong.”_ - LotR; Appendix A _“Since the dwarf and goblin war.”_ - The Hobbit; Chapter 3 _“2793 - The War of the Dwarves and Orcs begins.”_ - LotR; Appendix B _“At that moment Pippin saw why some of the troop had been pointing eastward. From that direction there now came hoarse cries, and there was Grishnákh again, and at his back a couple score of others like him: long-armed crook-legged Orcs. They had a red eye painted on their shields.”_ - LotR; Book III Chapter 3 _“The hobbits felt Grishnákh's fingers twitch. 'O ho!' hissed the goblin softly. 'That's what he means, is it? O ho! Very ve-ry dangerous, my little ones.'”_ - LotR; Book III Chapter 3 Tolkien even calls the Uruk-hai goblins on several occasions. _“There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs: and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men. Upon their shields they bore a strange device: a small white hand in the centre of a black field; on the front of their iron helms was set an S-rune, wrought of some white metal.”_ - LotR; Book II Chapter 10 _“Upon a stake in the middle was set a great goblin head; upon its shattered helm the white badge could still be seen”_ - LotR; Book III Chapter 2 So while the Orcs from the north may be smaller, may be a different breed, this breed does not have any name whatsoever. From Tolkien’s writings we can deduce that goblin is nothing more than the English translation of the word Orc indeed, like he has stated on several occasions. One should never forget that Tolkien was a linguist first, and a writer second. He created his own languages, and would create a world to breath life into those languages. He is not like modern fantasy authors that think that a race or breed should only have one word to name them. No, he would create a name in every single of his own languages and then translate it to an English equivalent. I have to say I disagree with the notion of the video that Uruk-hai are bred from Orcs and Men. The way I see it, they are just Orcs (elite Orcs, but Orcs nonetheless). Can gather some quotes for that too if you're interested. Of course, the evidence isn't as clear as in the case about goblins. Indeed, I also think Saruman focussed more on the training of his troops, out of necessity. After all, Sauron could feed huge armies with the massive amount of land he controlled, while Saruman didn't have the means to sustain those numbers unless he conquered Rohan. The weaponry of his Orcs seem to be better too indeed, although the armor was, according to Unfinished Tales, "the heavy and clumsy mail of the Orcs."
Where there's a whip there's a way!
But the Lord of the Lash says: "nay, nay, nay!"
We dont want to go to war today
Classic
We’re gonna march all day all day all day
Move it you MAGGOOOTS
Sauron prided himself on the Urak-hai, for he believed he had perfected the mess Morgoth had made with the Orcs. Same thing with the Olog-Hai and trolls.
I thought olag-hai were not cannon
Yeah to be fair it was a big achievement and improvement, and it would have certainly made his victory a lot easier!
@@GeekZoneMT, had they reached full deployment. That was Saruman's mistake. His first batch were really elite but the army sent against Helms Deep wasn't ready. That's one explanation I have heard for the apparent difference in battle performance.
Where have you heard this?
@@newaccount8601, I can't remember exactly where I read this. It is just a fan theory without any kind of lore basis. It attempts to explain why the force sent to bring the Hobbits to Isengard was apparently so elite but the army sent against Helms Deep was standard cannon fodder. The theory is that with the first batch Saruman took his time trying to perfect them but when he needed an army quickly, standards were relaxed.
My man GeekZone laying down the law 1:04 "It's a fact."
haha, it's kindof like a disclaimer, for the eventual 'Goblins are different than Orcs' comments ;)
@@GeekZoneMT haha
@@GeekZoneMT I've always been on the "they're different" side, which may be due to the separation of the 2 in D&D. But, since I've first heard you mention "they're the same" in a previous video, and doing some research, it is a fact. I may still be trying to get used to the concept, but still hahaha
I was thinking the same thing. Where is the thug life meme. Lol
I haven't read the books, so the Goblin King and his citizens being explicitly called "goblins" and everyone else being called "orcs", I assumed they were separate species. That's certainly helped by the goblins' diminutive size and CGI bodies in the Hobbit films, compared to orcs' human posture and makeup.
I'm very grateful to have found this channel to answer all my lore questions. I didn't even know that Sauron invented Uruk-Hai, since the films make them out to be Saruman's creation.
5:13 HE SAID IT. HE SAID THE THING
They're taking the hobbits to Isengard!
They're taking the hobbits to Isengard!
I like how the Urakai of Isengard were built specifically to destroy Rohan. Thick armor and spears, they were the perfect anti cavalry unit
The Virgin Orcs VS The Chad Uruk-Hai
I'm sure that there's a graphic of this somewhere 😂
The virgin Sauron vs the Chad Saruman
@@wizardengineer lmaoo troll
Great topic, my friend! I know a lot of people that are only familiar with the Uruk-hai from the movies.
Cheers Matt!
Orcs together strong.
Uruks together unstoppable >:(
@@GeekZoneMT Except by the Rohirrim commanded by Theodin King and Erkenbrand with Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas and with the Huorns at the Battle of the Hornburg. ;-)
@@GeekZoneMT Love the video and I have a small question. How are the relationship between Wargs and Orcs/Uruki.
@@stephensmith3111 screw those horsefuckers orcs are better! Orcs atleast aren't a bunch of women with blonde beards.
Orcs Alone Weak
Since the orcs were originally elves, twisted and perverted by Morgoth, it does come as a surprise that orcs could interbreed with humans. Humans and elves can interbreed, although it was not commonly done. Sauruman was originally the maia Curumo and was a servant of Aule, so he may have picked some knowledge about the creation of the dwarves that Sauron lacked and was able to finesse things a bit for the uruk-hai of Isengard.
Well, in his later years Tolkien was spending time rewriting everything. One of the changes he made was to change the origin of Orcs from Elves to Men.
The creation of the Dwarves was kept secret by Aule. I doubt he discussed the details of what he did with anyone - I don't think Eru would appreciate it if he told his pupils. Furthermore, Aule created the Dwarves from scratch, from dead materials. That's totally different from breeding species for improvements.
@Eric Konschuh You are correct, I need to pay more attention before clicking the COMMENT but ton. ;-)
Actually it was goblins that used to be elves. Irk-hai are hybrids between orcs and goblins, or sometimes orcs and humans. Orcs were always orcs from the day their race appeared.
@@cambuxton6835 "Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi [Elves] who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison , and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes."
-- J. R. R. Tolkien (1977) The Silmarillion,
Ch. 3 Of the Coming of the Elves
and the Captivity of Melkor
I am surprised that orcs which were originally corrupted elves could be improved by interbreeding with men while Tolkien's elves are depicted as superior to ordinary men in almost everything.
its crazy that Saruman came up with Uruks so fast when Sauron took so long, wonder if Sauron helped him.
Hmm to be fair if he researched the Uruks that already existed it might have made it alot easier to figure out how to recreate them. Since he only had to copy the idea rather than come up with it.
Saruman had a wizard solution.
Saruman and Sauron regularly communicated through the stones. It is likely that each picked up some of the secrets of the other, even if it was unintentional.
@@quillquickcard8824 they had a creative department in 😂
*Concerning the origin of the half-orcs, J.R.R. Tolkien suggested late in his life that:
*
"It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile."
I always held orcs and goblins different in my head in that goblins were more wild and primitive using stone weapons and leather armor with better quality equipment being stolen, whereas orcs had basic metallurgy and military ability using swords, plate armor and simple formations.
Well, their main difference is that one is less ugly than the other...
Dude comon, don't say that :( Orcs are sensitive
@@GeekZoneMT they just need love and attention!
Just kidding they need a hell lot of makeup!
Kaan K
Haha press x to shame go brrrr
@@GeekZoneMT Orc feelings Matter
Hahaha that's true
This is so fascinating. The difference between them. Mordor's Urukhai definitely seem more... brutish and simple than the Urukhai of Saruman. I'd almost say there was more complexity, yeah they can fight. But the Urukhai of Isengard feel more organized and better 'put together' as it were. It's kind of tricky to put into words.
Also... What better timing than my bday for a Lotr Lore video xD
Even though I am aware Tolkien was not a fan of allegory, I still view the Orcs as a metaphor of the corruptions that continue to harm humanity.
I suppose it's possible :)
Well, that whole part about creation (of things) was inspired by religious myths we currently have. Just like rings were inspired by the Ring of Nibelung. So, at the start you had a song and the favorite son of the Creator corrupted it. In Christianity, the creator made the world with the word (if I remember my Old Testament correctly) and his favorite son was the one who raised up against him and who corrupted his creations. The whole Tolkien's creation story is in large part Christian creation myth. Now how that ties to your idea of metaphor for corruption that harms humanity? Well, human corruption was done by the Devil, the most powerful of angels who fell from grace and lead lesser angels with him. In Tolkien's work, orcs are the corruption of the creator.
So I don't think that he wrote specifically for orcs to represent humanity's corruption, I think it does mean that but as a consequence of his basis of writing. Meaning, orcs do represent the corruption of humanity, but through the fact that he re-wrote Abrahamic religions creation myth where indeed the corruption found in humanity is a result of a fallen angel, the most powerful being after the creator himself.
@@Wustenfuchs109
To clarify; in Christianity the world was not corrupted by Satan (or Lucifer as he was called when he was an angel) or by the power of said devil but man was tempted by him into corruption through their own sin, and the natural result of sin is the corruption of intellect, will and the soul. Lucifer was also not a “son” of God but was a created being, there is only one “Son” of God, begotten and not created, and that would be Christ himself.
Lucifer might have been the strongest of angels, he was described as one of the Seraphim which is the highest choir (type) of angels, but even the most powerful of demons (which is what an angel becomes if it rebels against God) is miserably outmatched by the lowest of angels because they are powerful only through God himself and once that connection is severed they too are corrupted and lose nearly everything they once were.
Christianity is not a dualistic religion; Satan is nowhere near as powerful as God is, and as a demon he could be defeated by even just one of the lowest of angels should God will it. The type of corruption described in Christianity doesn’t come from Satan or any demon, it comes from separation from God and a departure from His will; sin.
Although there are still clearly similarities between Christianity and Tolkien’s LOTR universe, Tolkien was Catholic after all and it clearly shows in his writing.
GeekZone do have any theories on how Sauron used the Hill Trolls to create the Olog-hai because its confusing to this day how he managed that. At least with the Uruk-hai its easily with men/orcs breeding together. Anyway keep up the good videos man.
If I remember correctly it's implied that primitive humans were involved in the creation of the Olog Hai :)
He used the entwives
He used the entwives
Yeah i also got the impression that saruman's were sort of the next model uruk'hai
My brain: "Wondering what breeding between elf and orc would make."
Me: "I don´t think we really want to know."
My brain: "... Yeah we don´t."
The original orcs WERE elves as I recall. Morgoth kidnapped and corrupted them over many generations until they became degenerated monsters.
@@psychotripnerdstuff Yes they were but breading Orcs and Elves is opening a new can of worms for the free people
@@psychotripnerdstuff in all honesty Tolkien was pretty ambiguous concerning their origins. Some of the Vala and Loremasters think the first orcs were corrupted Elves and lesser Maia, others think they were completely created in mockery from the earth.
But Tolkien himself was never clear on whichever theory is the truth.
Lorewise the answer is still open to interpretation.
@@PYRESATVARANASI I think it was said in Sillmarilion that Melkor was not able to create life from nothing. So orcs had to be corrupted something.
Hey Carl, how about doing a series that compares different Middle Earth creatures to see who'd win in a battle?
Balrog vs Smaug?
I was actually planning to create such a series in the future :)
@@GeekZoneMT awesome! I'll be looking forward to it!!
As usual a great great video! What a great way to start the weekend! Thank you, thank you, thank you! Can’t wait to watch this a few times this weekend!
Thanks Dylan!! As always man it's awesome to see your comments here! :D
the uruk hai are my favourite "orc" like species in the LoTR series. And GeekZone is and always has been my goto LoTR content creator. happy to have been watching for years my bro!!
Great video! I have to say the sunlight is my weakness too!
Thanks Timbo! Haha mine too my friend 😂 Maybe we need to start our own UA-camr Orc Faction >:)
@@GeekZoneMT I may have to have a guest orc to come and fill in for me one week, you know, for a different perspective.
Hey Carl,
I was reading some comments and they got me thinking: How did Sauron feel about Morgoth? Both before and after his banishment? Did he respect him? At least as much as a Dark Lord can respect anything? Aren't there references to Melkor worship among Sauron's forces?
I'd actually love an episode on this if possible. I've always been both fascinated and perplexed by Sauron's actual beliefs and motivations.
If I'm not mistaken, you are Maltese, yes? Your English vocabulary is
superb, and your accent and delivery are perfect for recounting the Lore of Middle
Earth. In my opinion, you are one of the best narrators on YT. May the
hair on your toes never fall off!
Great video! Just been thinking it is a bummer we've never heard of a 'good' Half-Orc (that is, it is unfortunate none were redeemed). While still evil, I believe that Half-Orcs would be redeemed somewhat quicker than the regular Orcs of Sauron & Morgoth.
Once again a superb breakdown of the lore leaving out no detail. The mentioning of the weakness if the orcs in sunlight made me remember something from the Silmarillion that seems to be a blurb from before Tolkien had his "orc nature " completely fleshed out in the cannon: there was a scene when Turin was taken captive by Morgoth's orcs. Beleg comes in to rescue him by NIGHT (!) but the orc camp is asleep (!) And so Beleg silently slays the warg sentries and begins to free Turin, who is unconscious and in a stupid after much torture, and he accidentally cuts him whilst freeing him from his bonds. Turin , seeing a shadow bent over him and thinking it is an orc captor come to torment him, slays his friend Beleg.
I don't know why but I was under the impression that goblins typically referred to the spindly wide eyed looking orcs from Moria and "Goblin town" (I can't remember the name of the mountain), where as Orcs were typically the more upright humanoid ones from Mordor and Dol Goldur.
Yeah it's a common misconception, probably because the term Goblin was used far more often in the Hobbit compared to the Lord of the Rings, so we associate it with the Orcs of the Misty Mountains :)
@@GeekZoneMT AAAAALSO, I almost forgot, in the Battle for Middle Earth 2 game (which is clearly canon .>) "Goblins" were a separate faction. They were pretty cool too, for what ever reason they could summon a dragon lol
I'm pretty sure goblins are a lesser orc related species that *is* different
You love to see that notification from GeekZone
Mordor vs. Isengard is probably name-brand vs. store brand: Saruman probably copied the trade secrets to the best of his ability (which was considerable), but I doubt he got it quite right.
Hey guys! Can you think of any other differences between the Orcs and Uruk-Hai? And do you think that there was any difference between the Uruk-Hai of Isengard and Mordor? As always subtitles are available and feedback is welcome!
I remembered one part that Saruman told the first Uruk Hai was the corruption of Elves into Orcs which is sad and horrifying to hear that.
Video made my day. I appreciate that there are others whom like the world of Arda.
The Uruk-Hai of Mordor seem to be more plentiful, but less skilled than their isengard Counterparts. This is mostly due to Sauron prioritizing quantities to swarm and overwhelm his enemies, While saruman, who had a lot less land to work with, prioritized quality, making the most of his small land and his orcs.
Physically, the Uruk-hai of Isengard seemed to have straighter legs than those of Mordor. I have theorized elsewhere that they may have had some man-blood in them.
Loyalty it seemed. They bared the white hand not an eye
*Uruks are also known as "Black Orcs"*
Hey Geekzone, I was wondering if you would ever do a video regarding magic in Middle Earth itself. Maybe you've already done such a video and I may have overlooked it. However, I think it'll be interesting to know whether Dwarves, Hobbits, or Orcs were capable of using magic. I know elves have an affinity for it while Men dealt in it occasionally like with the Witch King.
As of right now this video has zero dislikes.
Those Uruk officer helmets look really cool very Roman and professional like.
I wonder if Sauron told Saruman "the recipe" for Urak-hai via the palentir.
Can you do a video on Gondolin? It’s History both in Middle-Earth and in real life?
Yeah of course mate! I've been meaning to explore more of the Silmarillion for a while now :)
It is impressive that Saruman discovered and perfected it as the Uruk Hai of Isengard seemed to be superior to even the Uruks of Mordor. The Uruk's of Mordor still seemed negatively affected by Sunlight, while the uruk hai of Saruman didn't seem to notice it at all and could cover great distances in the sun.
5:08 true point however in the film you would think when Frodo was captured and the orc and Uruk are looking at his mithril shirt the Uruk would have been the one to follow orders instead of the orc... The Uruk wanted the shirt for himself and to defy orders.
Down down to goblin town, you Go my lad!
WOW. I had no idea there were half orcs in Tolkien works already. I am currently working on a story featuring a good half orc that travels along an avatar of myself in the lotr world.
Thats pretty cool, I guess my story is gonna be midly cannon lol
I consider there is a difference between goblins and orcs at least for the films. It adds this level of slight convolution that makes the lore more enjoyable for me. Like the Goblins in Moria are actually half orc. I had lots of fun with it.
Cool vid. In depth and visually brilliant
Great video! Very interesting. 10/10
Top job mate, best tolkien channel on yt 👍👍👍
Cheers, Karl!
I love your channel!
Impressive Work, a lot of power and knowledge, someone worth to follow! The people of the East stand behind you great Lord!
Thanks man this helps a lot
1:19 you see the goblins moving around in daylight even fighting when Aragorn got push off the cliff in return of the king.
I love the artwork in this vid.👍👍Awesome
Thanks for great content as usual!
Thanks for the information
Nice video, as always !
Thanks Zell!
I kinda want to know more about potential differences between Mordor Uruk-Hai and Isengard Uruk-Hai.
Do a part two that’s about the difference between the trolls and the olog hai
Excellent Job! 👍🏼👍🏼
Great video- fascinating 👍
Cheers Joseph!
Personally, I've always kinda felt the same way regarding the difference in Uruks from Isengard vs. Mordor; though this impression was gained more so from the films than the books for me. Hard to say why really, but bottom line is that I would definitely agree. The destruction of Isengard was quite the blow to the military industrial complex of the forces of Sauron in Middle Earth, as it was the producer of the finest soldiers for the armies of darkness. Idk, just something to consider I believe...
I got a question, were there any evil dwarfs? I wouldn't say the dwarves that were given the rings of power were evil, only greedy.
Yeah there were actually some that had served Sauron and that made alliances with the Orcs
Oh, sweet. Did they have a name?
As far as i know no, they're only mentioned in passing :)
Dwarfs were very hard to corrupt afaik, even the rings didnt do much like you said.
@@GeekZoneMT Would Mîm count, once he betrayed Túrin?
I almost get the feeling from the books, that orcs can be allmost as genetically diverse as men, even of this isn't stated.
Video suggestion; in the game shadow of war saruman says that it is his goal to oppose sauron with his own orc army. Now it’s not cannon obviously however it got me thinking if saruman had taken helms deep and the ents not flooded Isengard would he have turned on sauron and if so how would it have potentially played out.
As always great video
Actually, that is canon. Saruman did betray Sauron. After all, he wanted the Ring for himself, build up his strength by conquering Rohan and then challenge Sauron. However, Saruman needed the One Ring to even stand a chance. But no matter how it played out, you would've had a tyrant ruling over Middle-Earth with an iron fist.
Glad to hear that SoW did one thing right. Because apart from that, it's just one big mess lore-wise.
Nice video dude
Thanks Johnny!
@@GeekZoneMTU keep trucking GeekZone!
I think orcs, were some kind of mindless creatures, and your video is very clear in the differences.
Did you say Sauron made the Uruk-hai? So both Sauron and Saruman both figured out how to make them? Is there any mention in the books where Sauron is said to have made them?
Yeah he 'created' them first before Saruman :) We actually see a few of the Uruks of Mordor in the tower of Cirith Ungol
Regarding references they're mentioned in the Fellowship of the Ring, the Appendices and Morgoth's Ring. Here's a quote from the appendices that describes their first appearence:
In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath. Boromir son of Denethor (after whom Boromir of the Nine Walkers was later named) defeated them and regained Ithilien; but Osgiliath was finally ruined, and its great stone-bridge was broken.
@@GeekZoneMT oooh thank you for the effort!! I remember that now but I always took Uruks as a subspecies of Orc and didn't link them to the Uruk-hai. Thanks for clearing that up! And thanks for honoring the video requests you get :)
No problem buddy! :)
So the Uruk-Hai is much better for an army because each member is quite strong but for exemple the the orcs from Gundabad can be extremely strong, like azog or borg?
yes more orc videos. its all i care about honestly
Saruman is probably one of most intelligent entities in Middle earth. He was able to figure out how to craft his own lesser rings and he created Uruk hai warriors in no time...also gun powder.
But he lacked heart, he was envious of Gandalf and he saw power of shadow and could not find any logical way to beat it without harnessing its own power.
On question of more orcish and more human mixes. Well orcs are basically twisted elves and mix of elves and men can pick their destiny. Maybe same goes for half orc and human breed.
As far as i know, Sarumans Uruk Hai were a stronger and improved version of Saurons Black Uruks of Mordor. Sarumans Uruk Hai seem to be even stronger, bigger and potentially also smarter. Saruman seems to have been even more talented than Sauron in breeding and interbreeding species. They're both Maiar of Aule, but Saruman made frightening progress in a very short time when it came to industrilization and interbreeding.
About the Half - Orcs. I think that was what happened when a human and orc mated directly. Mostly humanoid with a little orcish influence. Basically the worst of both traits. But the Uruk-hai was the union of their best traits - selected for by breaking the humans into submission and repeated crossbreeding.
It only makes sense that there would be a variety within Uruk-Hai just as there's variety within humans and Elves.
Also, goblins and orcs are different creatures in D&D. I'm not sure that Saruman actually developed his own Uruk-hai or if they were assigned to him by Sauron. Saruman certainly did breed his own half-orcs and goblin-men.
In the books we're told that Saruman rediscovered the technique :)
@@GeekZoneMT Okay; I did not remember that. It makes some sense though, since Saruman closely studied Saruman's methods.
As my DM used to put it, think regular Army pukes ...versus Genome Green Beret....there you go.
I want to know why sometimes their uruk hais others black uruk hai and yet more just uruks but also although they aren't cannon in the films gimli seems to say oro-kai they call themselves the fighting uruk hai at the battle of helms deep (many times) so what is the difference between them or is it purely aesthetics
I believe it's really just different names for the same creature. There might be differences between Uruk-Hai of different faction but they all had the same basic characteristics that made them 'Uruks'
@@GeekZoneMT so it is aesthetics
But it's fun being weird! ;-)
@@stephensmith3111 what I find as fun is archery, ants, plants stuff like that
In the index of Unfinished Tales we can read the following: _“Uruks - Anglicized form of Uruk-hai of the Black Speech; a race of Orcs of great size and strength. ”_
So it's the same creature, Tolkien just changed the term a bit to fit the English language better.
Urukhais never took orders from those “orc maggots”
I now imagine a game in which you roam middle with a Uruk and an Orc to hunt down "prey"
Isengard Uruk-hai seem bigger and stronger then Morder Uruk-hai, and I find it funny that the reason is most likely because because Saruman feed them better, while Sauron prop care more about mass production of soliders not giving much care in their treatment and training
One thing is for sure: You don't wanna anger a Dark lord who has a mighty and productive orc force under his power.
Person #1: Knock knock
Person #2: Who's there?
Person #1: Goblin
Person #2: Goblin who?
Person #1: Goblin deez nuts.
Person #3: Ha, got 'em
Lets see it this way: the Uruk-Hai were SS, the Half-Orcs Gestapo and those under Saruman´s command Quislings and Ustaša ,)
My friend asked me yesterday something I cabt believe I never thought of; to what degree, if any did wizards need their staff? I could remember that in the book gandalf defeated the Balrog after his staff was shattered but gandalf makes a point of breaking Saruman staff and saying only his words have power or something to that effect. Any insight in this? Maybe a video?
Also, Grima makes a point of telling the rohirrim to take gandalfs staff before he sees Theoden and gandalf tries quite hard to keep it.
I knew that the orcs couldn't see well in sunlight, but didn't know about the other adverse effects.
pls make another video about Morannon Orcs (black Orcs) and Morgul orcs and black Uruks of mordor.
I think that in the Hobbit movies they really messed up the orcs by making them almost half as big as trolls. I always had the orcish threat in my mind as great masses of wretched creatures. With orcs about the sizes of horses with thick armor the fights wouldn't be much of a fight.
Sauron's Uruks i think were also called Black Uruks of Mordor, and If my memory serves me right, according to the Sillmarilion the very first of their kind appeared around the last king of Gondor period, before the stewards took over. But for the most part Uruks remained a small elite force, by comparison to the generic orcs. Based on their habitat I also prefer calling them different subspecies or tribes. The Goblins for example, they belong to the orc category but I strongly believe they are very different from Mordor orcs, or Gundabad. It's like saying the Rohirim and the Gondorians are the same thing. xDDD
Keep in mind Tolkien was a linguist who created several languages for his own world. Or better yet, he created a world for his languages. He was seriously invested in those languages, and used terms he created to name the races that inhabited his world. But creating a language doesn't just stop at creating words, they also have to have a meaning. This requires the ability to translate those words into existing languages. And Tolkien did this for all of his races. For example, Quendi was translated to Elves, the English word for Noldor was Gnome in the early days, the Atani was the race of Men, Naugrim were Dwarves. The same thing happened to Orc, which Tolkien translated into goblin. This can be proven easily by the fact that Tolkien used the terms interchangeably (well, apart from his statements that goblin is the English term for Orc). We have accounts of Uruk-hai and Mordor Orcs being called goblin (I can provide the quotes if you like).
Gundabad Orcs are a movie invention, not to be named in a book discussion.
So in the end, goblin refers to the exact same creatures as the word Orc does. It would be very uncharacteristic of the Professor if he decided to throw a standalone English term to name one of his races, while leaving another term untranslated.
I'd love to see the story of Bolg
My view on the whole Goblin vs Orc (in LOTR) is that it is more of a station rather than a race so the weaker more servile are Goblins and the larger more warlike Orc's :) With the Uruk-Hai and Olag-Hai the free people where lucky that the movement of the ring forced Sauron's hand, as more time to create these the forces of darkness would have been unstoppable!
I know that this video is 4 months old so probably not going to get much if any response, but a thought just dawned on me. Tolkien at one point makes mention that although orcs are inherently evil by they're creation there may be possibilities for them to be rehabilitated if you will. Or that there is possibility of change in allegiance. Therefore I question, being half human, could urukhai be more so tempted to good rather than evil? It's an interesting concept to say the least
I doubt Uruk-hai were half human. They are treated very differently from Half-orcs within Tolkien's works after all.
To answer your question if Half-orcs could be redeemed easier than Orcs, it might be indeed. Seeing as how one could even infiltrate Bree, I think they had a better idea about what is acceptable behaviour than Orcs to say the least.
@@MasterBombadillo true. In referring to the half human, I meant half orc men. I unfortunately wrote Urukhai by mistake. I do know that Mordor orcs and Uruks didn't see eye to eye, on many occasions but, were similar in thought pattern and behavior albeit one much bigger and stronger than the other. So I agree, Uruks may or may not be much more redeemable. Im interested in this thought of half orcs though. I would assume that they would be more redeemable. But, still the thought puzzles me... Orcs were inherently evil, yet Tolkien clearly insinuates that they could and did change allegiance from time to time. So really my question would be why? Was it because they could be redeemed or was it self preservation? It's a conundrum I just keep rolling around in my head when I look deeper into they're allegiances, to one another especially. Although judging from some of the conversation between them they were also cool with just leaving comrades to hang up in Shelobs lair. 😁 Maybe it's another one of those deep Tolkien mysteries we will never know.
Well it looks like its up to the Fioting Uruk-Hai, as usual.
I thought orks were created while goblins always existed.
And also, what happened to the urki if they were so powerful? I find it hard that they all died out
They're now working in Wash DC as politicians
This topic is like comparing Sauron to Morgoth we all love the og but we all know who rlly pulling the string 😂😂
Orcs: Red Army
Uruks: Wermacht
Wehrmacht had numerical superiority on the front until 1943
Orcs: Mao's Red Army, low tech, Uruks, Stalin's Red Army, higher tech.
I believe in the Hobbit, it is stated that orcs are bigger than goblins. Still the same species, just that goblins are smaller in stature.
What was the relations between Orcs/Uruk-Hai and the other human subjects of Sauron, like the Easterlings, the Haradrim or the Black Numenoreans?
I think this is one of the darkest aspects of Tolkien's work. Nobody wants to discuss it, but there's really only one way Sauron and Saruman could have bred orcs with humans and it sure wasn't by digging them out of mud pits like in the movies.
For one, it's a interesting detail that always bothered me, that orcs and goblins are actually the same thing, and Tolkien used the terms interchangeably. I always wondered about that because on the portuguese translation of LOTR (I'm brazilian) the only word used for them is orc, and never goblin. So it caught my attention.
Also, wasn't there an intermediary breed between orc and uruk-hai, that being an uruk? I remember reading somewhere that the "-hai" part means "big" and uruk-hai would simply mean "big uruk". But I'm not sure if that's true, or if my memory's playing tricks
Uruk-hai is the plural form of Uruk. It's a Black Speech term used for the biggest Orcs at the end of the Third Age, but it used to simply translate to Orc-folk.
Cross-breeding of Lesser Orcs and Uruks will make Gushmurashi Orcs or Morannon orcs?
In the movies it was theorised that orcs were elves that became twisted with torture. Is there anything in the books that alludes to this?
Tolkien had many theories about the origin of Orcs. Many of these he dropped, and in the end he had two dominant theories, but both have their problems.
For a long time, Tolkien indeed said that the first Orcs were Elves that Morgoth had captured, mutulated and broken, corrupted until they became Orcs. However, Tolkien wasn't happy with this theory. For example, he couldn't figure out what happened to Orcs after they died. Elves go to the Halls of Mandos when they die, waiting to be given a new body with which they can re-enter the physical world. But if Orcs were once Elves, this should also be their fate. Tolkien didn't like that idea.
His problems with the Elvish theory would result in him starting to rewrite The Silmarillion. After all, he thought that Men should be the ones that were corrupted into Orcs. After all, Men aren't bound to Arda after they die, so there are less problems with the afterlife. They aren't immortal so Orcs shouldn't be immortal either, and Men reproduce much faster than Elves too. However, he had to tinker with the timeline. In The Silmarillion as we know it now, Men awoke after the first time we saw the Orcs. So this didn't add up. Tolkien started to rewrite his tales to make it fit, but he wasn't able to finish it before he died.
So in the end, it's up to you which theory you belief in. Elves or Men, or even both (I think we have a draft stating that too). Just keep in mind we can't give a definite answer.
Can u make comparison on uruks and gundaban orcs
Karl, is there any mention of female Orcs? It's rather hard to imagine how the Uruk-Hai came to be without male and female.
Yeah according to Tolkien Orcs used to reproduce in a similar fashion to Elves and Men, so female orcs certianly existed :)
Just look around at a feminist convention...
@@csabascs5913 hahahaha
@@csabascs5913 omg dead
I was a little shocked to hear that orcs and goblins were the same for Tolkien. If that's true, then fine, but you didn't provide references, since I'd like to check to be honest, not because I don't believe you, but because I'm just interested by this factoid. Great video by the way!
Also, I think the Uruk-Hai of Isengard were also better trained and equipped than the ones in Mordor because in Mordor they were simply bred in large numbers, so there were too many to take care of. In other words, Sauron went for sheer numbers, whereas Saruman was more fixated on quality over quantity. It's my theory anyway.
I can help you with quotes and references that you can check.
_"Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds)."_ - The Hobbit Preface
_“And why dwarves? Grammar prescribes dwarfs; philology suggests that dwarrows would be the historical form. The real answer is that I knew no better. But dwarves goes well with elves; and, in any case, elf, gnome, goblin, dwarf are only approximate translations of the Old Elvish names for beings of not quite the same kinds and functions.”_ - The Letters of JRR Tolkien, #25
_“Also the Orcs (goblins) and other monsters bred by the First Enemy are not wholly destroyed.”_ -The Letters of JRR Tolkien, #131
_“Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitability) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be 'corruptions'. They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit, where orc only occurs once, I think), especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in. The name has the form orch (pl. yrch) in Sindarin and uruk in the Black Speech.”_ - The Letters of JRR Tolkien, #144
_“Your preference of goblins to orcs involves a large question and a matter of taste, and perhaps historical pedantry on my part. Personally I prefer Orcs (since these creatures are not 'goblins', not even the goblins of George MacDonald, which they do to some extent resemble).”_ - The Letters of JRR Tolkien, #151
This means that we should find that Tolkien used the terms Orc and goblin interchangeably in his works. When we read those works, we find that he uses those terms as synonyms indeed.
_“Elrond knew all about runes of every kind. That day he looked at the swords they had brought from the trolls' lair, and he said: "These are not troll-make. They are old swords, very old swords of the High Elves of the West, my kin. They were made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars. They must have come from a dragon's hoard or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago. This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin; it was a famous blade. This, Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once wore. Keep them well!"_ - The Hobbit; Chapter 3
Notice that in this particular quote, Tolkien references to the Fall of Gondolin as the Goblin-wars. Meanwhile, we cannot find the term “goblin” anywhere in the Silmarillion, since he solely uses the term Orc for the stories we find in that book. Of course, there's also the fact that Elrond straight up translates "Orcrist" to "Goblin-cleaver". This is in line with the quote I provided from Letter 151: Tolkien preferred the term Orc to differentiate his creatures from the creatures we know from other tales. The later the drafts he wrote, the more he banned goblin from his vocabulary. Now, on to the next quotes.
_“'Not a sound but the wind,' he said. `There are no goblins near, or my ears are made of wood. It is to be hoped that the Orcs will be content with driving us from Moria. And maybe that was all their purpose, and they had nothing else to do with us-with the Ring. Though Orcs will often pursue foes for many leagues into the plain, if they have a fallen captain to avenge.'”_ - LotR; Book II Chapter 6
_“If you have ever seen a dragon in a pinch, you will realize that this was only poetical exaggeration applied to any hobbit, even to Old Took’s great-grand-uncle Bullroarer, who was so huge (for a hobbit) that he could ride a horse. He charged the ranks of the goblins of Mount Gram in the Battle of the Green Fields, and knocked their king Golfimbul’s head clean off with a wooden club.”_ - The Hobbit; Chapter 1
_“2747 - Bandobras Took defeats an Orc-band in the Northfarthing.”_ - LotR; Appendix B
_“Your grandfather Thror was killed, you remember, in the Mines of Moria by Azog the Goblin.”_ - The Hobbit; Chapter 1
_“Thereupon Azog came forth, and he was a great Orc with a huge iron-clad head, and yet agile
and strong.”_ - LotR; Appendix A
_“Since the dwarf and goblin war.”_ - The Hobbit; Chapter 3
_“2793 - The War of the Dwarves and Orcs begins.”_ - LotR; Appendix B
_“At that moment Pippin saw why some of the troop had been pointing eastward. From that direction there now came hoarse cries, and there was Grishnákh again, and at his back a couple score of others like him: long-armed crook-legged Orcs. They had a red eye painted on their shields.”_ - LotR; Book III Chapter 3
_“The hobbits felt Grishnákh's fingers twitch. 'O ho!' hissed the goblin softly. 'That's what he means, is it? O ho! Very ve-ry dangerous, my little ones.'”_ - LotR; Book III Chapter 3
Tolkien even calls the Uruk-hai goblins on several occasions.
_“There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs: and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men. Upon their shields they bore a strange device: a small white hand in the centre of a black field; on the front of their iron helms was set an S-rune, wrought of some white metal.”_ - LotR; Book II Chapter 10
_“Upon a stake in the middle was set a great goblin head; upon its shattered helm the white badge could still be seen”_ - LotR; Book III Chapter 2
So while the Orcs from the north may be smaller, may be a different breed, this breed does not have any name whatsoever. From Tolkien’s writings we can deduce that goblin is nothing more than the English translation of the word Orc indeed, like he has stated on several occasions. One should never forget that Tolkien was a linguist first, and a writer second. He created his own languages, and would create a world to breath life into those languages. He is not like modern fantasy authors that think that a race or breed should only have one word to name them. No, he would create a name in every single of his own languages and then translate it to an English equivalent.
I have to say I disagree with the notion of the video that Uruk-hai are bred from Orcs and Men. The way I see it, they are just Orcs (elite Orcs, but Orcs nonetheless). Can gather some quotes for that too if you're interested. Of course, the evidence isn't as clear as in the case about goblins.
Indeed, I also think Saruman focussed more on the training of his troops, out of necessity. After all, Sauron could feed huge armies with the massive amount of land he controlled, while Saruman didn't have the means to sustain those numbers unless he conquered Rohan. The weaponry of his Orcs seem to be better too indeed, although the armor was, according to Unfinished Tales, "the heavy and clumsy mail of the Orcs."