It sounds like the whole Easter naming convention would be equivalent of saying "4th of July" was celebrating a Roman emperor "Julius Caeser" and then taken and appropriated by Americans. (note: I know that it is also called Independence Day but throughout my childhood we would call it the "4th of July")
That's a very good analogy, I didn't quite understand why they would name a holiday after a month, but the "4th" and other days like "9 11" and well as "July 7th" in the UK, are all "named" like this, they do have official names, but without written record I could see the official name falling away in favour of the colloquial name.
I've seen a lot of critics of Christianity point out how Christians often try to play the victim, but watching this guy made me realize how much the rest of us do it. "Christianity robbed paganism" is often a way of saying, "Christianity hurt me." It should be noted that Christian victimhood often leads to moral panics and legislation, while atheist victimhood is mainly just bitching. That being said, having been on both sides, I think we can all use some introspection and fact checking.
@@mcdonaldsorwhatevers Where would you like to start? Circumcellions attacking folks in the hope they would be killed and get to heaven? How about the century of civil war on the Arian 'heresy'? Constant attempts to conquer the Bulgars? 30 years of war in Arabia bequeathing us Islam? The Cathar Genocide? Justification of Slavery? Colonialism, Adolph Hitler, communism.... I left out the crusades, cos they are too boring.
I'm not sure I buy your analysis. Christians can be annoying. Christians can be obnoxious. Christians can be irritating. To somebody like this content creator who is white and male, Christianity wasn't something that would hurt him. Christianity would be like a traffic detour or something like that. It wouldn't be this trauma that other groups would experience such a child who is wondering if they're gay or not and they hear "god hates the gays". I think a better explanation is this. People encounter a crazy Christian. This Christian is very very annoying and nasty. After all, nothing says Christian like "those" Christians. So already, we're not off to a good start. Christians have a bad image so now, they get less benefit of the doubt. So then, this guy watches some video about Christians stealing and enslaving people in other countries. He goes "huh.. the people in this religion aren't good people." Then, he watches a tiktok or something that claims that Christians stole Christmas holidays .. and it seems plausible. remember, Christians lost the benefit of the doubt. No more charity. No more good will assumptions. It's just a "Well, they were garbage and it's likely they're garbage in this." let this be a lesson to everybody. Especially white people. Everybody is and can be used to define their group. You aren't an individual to many people. You are a living example of what the other people who look like you are. So if you behave badly, that will generate a generalization and stereotyping. For example.. when I see conservative Christians, I import a basic data set that includes.. republican, Trump voter, lies a lot, probably abuses children, doesn't really know their religion, hypocrite, violent, can look polite but is very dangerous. Then, I meet a conservative Christian and if they exhibit enough of those traits.. I get a "Yep, I was right".. Or, I could add on a trait or remove a trait. But it's harder to remove negative traits. It's far easier to add negative traits. So again, put your best foot forward or be crazy charismatic and charming so you can get away with murder. If you don't know if you're crazy charismatic and charming.. then you aren't. Pretty appeal is measurable.
@@mcdonaldsorwhateversIs this a serious question? I mean, every religion has its problems, and Christianity is hardly immune. Leaving aside forced conversions, and happy-fun-times like the Inquisition and the Salem witch trials, the most destructive thing this religion has done, and continues to do, it push out-dated and harmful dogma that allows bigots to justify the continued persecution of anyone they deem to be “other”.
I find it interesting, the difference between an angry guy in his backyard, spouting off what he thinks he knows/believes and wants to shit on other people's traditions and the things they derive meaning from and a guy who actually knows, despite what he believes, and is informed by what he has researched. Maybe it is just me, but there is a certain kind of charm with informed beliefs and faith.
New subscriber to this channel here. I'm really appreciating Dan's sincere, objective & logical academic approach. I wish more people would have this kind of intelligence & maturity when discussing these sensitive topics. So first off, thank you for this interesting & insightful video. On a personal note, my family & I love celebrating Christmas in our own simple secular way, while respecting our Christian friends' right to celebrate it in their own religious manner. I'm an agnostic philosopher who likes Stoic & Eastern philosophy, my wife is Buddhist & my daughter is just a young kid. There's really nothing Christian about our family. And yet we love celebrating Christmas. And we don't care what others say or think about that, one way or another. I'm tired of the vitriolic extremists, on both sides. Like that ill informed guy in the video who misunderstands & misinterprets the influences & elements of the old pagan traditions had on Christianity when it became the dominant religion over ancient Europe. But I also find the nauseating Christian extremists & zealots who think Christmas should only be celebrated in the most dogmatic hardline way possible, equally insufferable & grossly annoying. Why can't people just respect each other's freedom to celebrate Christmas as they wish? Or respect the right of non-Christians, agnostics, atheists, etc. to celebrate (or not to celebrate) Christmas as they see fit? Just live & let live, people! As a native Romanian, I found out recently that many of the pagan Zamolxian traditions & values of my ancient Geto-Dacian ancestors were passed on, preserved or appropriated into the Romanian Orthodox religion when it took over our society roughly two thousand years ago. Which personally I appreciate because it's nice to have these ancestral cultural influences, while also respecting the modern religious aspect. Anyway, Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to everyone! And let's have more peace & love in this world too. ☮😍
I certainly wouldn't tell anyone else that they shouldn't be celebrating Christmas, but as someone who grew up in Judaism, it does irk me a bit when people tell me that I should celebrate Christmas because it's not really a Christian holiday.
Absolutely right. IMO the proper position for either a Christian or a Christmas-celebtating non-Christian (like me) is that you _can_ celebrate Christmas. Saying that you _should_ celebrate Christmas is extremely rude, chauvinistic and - whether intentionally or not - antisemitic.
@@GaryDunionas a Jew myself, I don’t think it’s inherently antisemitic because of the new secular nature of Christmas. But I do think it’s rude or a bit invasive to care so much about other people not celebrating that you order them to celebrate.
I'm not a Christian, but celebrate in my own way, wish my Christian friends "Merry Christmas" and do the same with Kauwnsa, and everything else. It's called "living and let live." Or as Sgt Hulker said in the movie stripes, "lighten up Francis."
Jeez! The guy in the clip should really audition for the next Hollywood version of A Christmas Carol. He'd make the definitive Ebenezer Scrooge! What a humbug!
I always felt Christmas has become a religious holiday coexisting with a secular holiday. Here in China people have no problem with “merry Christmas” greetings or the word’s use in marketing but in the West people want to make sure an umbrella term is used to capture all winter holidays for whatever reason and some just because of their disdain for Christianity I guess.
It's not only about a dislike of Christianity, and I'd suggest that's the least likely reason (if the one that gets the most volume). There are several other holidays which have non-Christian religious origins, like Channukah (or whatever spelling you prefer; a Jewish holiday), the Winter Solstice (often celebrated by neopagans and Wiccans), the modern Kwanza (adopted largely in the African American community in an effort to both distance from commercialism and honor non-Christian heritages), and Humanlight (an effort by Humanists to offer a Christmas alternative that won't revolve around Christian narratives) are a few. The idea is that those who _don't_ share your religious affiliation should also be included in the well-wishes, so why not just use a generic term that would include But it's not often just about the religious issues: much of US Christmas energy is devoted to commercialism and stressful cultural expectations that many people have come to dread. For those who become annoyed by the incessant music in every public space, the bombardment of advertising and its affect on any ordinary store visit, the sensory assault of decorations, and social demands of family, to say nothing of the financial burden of finding (usually buying) everyone you know some kind of gift, the holiday can feel like a peak stress event, especially for homemakers. As such, sometimes you just want to ignore explicitly Christmas--with its psychological associations with so much unhappiness and stress--and just communicate the spirit of your intention: I hope your holidays, whatever they are, under whatever social or religious umbrella, are happy.
12/16/2014 In 1659, the Massachusetts Bay Colony enacted a law called Penalty for Keeping Christmas. The notion was that such “festivals as were superstitiously kept in other countries” were a “great dishonor of God and offence of others.” Anyone found celebrating Christmas by failing to work, “feasting, or any other way… shall pay for every such offence five shillings.”, from the Official Web Site of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
"..pure and utter nonsense...". Dan is funneir then my PHI 101professor, who was basically a calvainist presuppositional apologist. "We're gonna put that proposition in a special case, and put in a special basket, and call it your special basket-case".
I am very much an atheist these days and have been a long time, but I will never stop celebrating Christmas the way I was raised. It saddens me that so many of my fellow atheists consider raising children with these traditions to be deceitful. It's a pleasure to have a young child that lives in a world of wonder, magic and imagination. And an equal though bittersweet pleasure to watch them grow out of it on their own as they start to apply the critical thinking skills you taught them.
Christmas functions as both a Christian and a secular festival at the same time. It embraces a wide range of experiences and meanings at the same time and does that really well.
There's a difference between "celebrating" Christmas and taking December 25th off work. Saturday is a Jewish Sabbath and Sunday is a Christian "sabbath". So anyone that takes weekends off is also "guilty" of the same thing.
@@mugikuyu9403 So, it was about Judaism and Christianity, in part. In those religions the Sabbath is supposed to be a day of rest. I would guess that religious support helped get those days enacted as standard days off from work.
@@aaronpolichar7936 it’s not so much that religious support helped get those days enacted as days off, it’s that everyone (or almost everyone) was religious and would have liked to have those days off.
Thanks for the great video! What's the name of the idea of a saint dying on the same day as birth. Us Jews have a similar concept in Midrashic literature where Moses is said to have died on his birthday.
I would argue that most Christians take December 25th as Jesus' birthday for granted - the vast majority of people in general, let alone Christians, have never thought about it hard enough to have taken it upon themselves to research the tradition. and so come to an alternate conclusion.
I love the integrity. Yes, as an atheist I find the de-mythologizing of Christian narratives and texts to be satisfying and fascinating, but am equally appreciative of the counter-narratives I often encountered in neopagan circles asserting many utterly unsupported (or sometimes scantily supported, if you squint real hard) claims about the supposed "pagan origins" of many Christian stories or ideas. The knife of truth cuts both ways, friends.
I would like to ask you, dr. Dan, can you discuss other possible connections between queen esther and the goddess ishtar? I believe i heard from christopher hitchens that the queen esther story is a euhemerization of the ishtar/dumizid tale.
Something I enjoy about this response: 1) How many Christmas traditions in the Anglosphere are relatively recent - within the past couple centuries. Many of the basic ideas in Christmas celebrations in English-speaking traditions (trees, toy-making elves, Santa & sleigh, etc.) to the revival of Christmas celebration during the early to mid-19th century. (For example, even though Christmas trees had been part of German Christmas celebrations since the early 15th century, their introduction to English culture seems to have started with the German Prince Albert.) I am also reminded of Dickens's A Christmas Carol, in which it defined & described the "Christmas spirit" and Christmas traditions in the Anglosphere but never really mentions Jesus's birth. 2) The English name for the holiday "Easter" based on the Germanic month is reminiscent of how the term "Yule" - also noted by the Venerable Bede for the month/s the holiday is celebrated - has been used as a name for Christmas in English & Scandinavian languages.
Is there any truth that December 25th was chosen as Jesus’s birthday because of Hebrew prediction that the messiah would be conceived around the time of Passover?
Regarding Santa's reindeer, I've heard people say that they were inspired by the Norse god Odin. I'm not sure how true it is, but I've always thought it was an interesting theory.
The tenuous connection people make with Odin was that he has an eight-legged horse, and Santa has “eight tiny reindeer “ … which doesn’t prove anything at all. To prove some continuity with Odin you would have to show Clement Clark Moore made St. Nick an intentional reference to Odin and Sleipnir? I ain’t buying it.
As to Easter eggs, in Eastern Orthodox they are often painted red. This ties into a tradition about Mary Magdalene having an audience with Emperor Tiberius in Rome. I am not sure how old the tradition is, but again has nothing to do with pagan tradition. I am not 100% but I remember there being a story about Mary bring eggs to Jesus' tomb that miraculously turned red.
Dan, what about 17th century accusations of pagan influences from puritans? why don’t you address those ? genuinely curious i don’t know where to start ascertaining
The tradition of bringing evergreen boughs into the home to decorate or to hang them over the door to ward off evil spirits and demons, is a pagan tradition that can be traced back to the ancient Egyptians. However, it is also true that it was German Christians that first came up with the idea of bringing the entire tree into the house. So everyone wins that one 😜
To the people that spread the weird crap the dudebro did: Why make these weird claims that you can't back up? With all the genocides and other atrocities committed by people under the guise of this religion, why this? Why try to find stuff? Is it because the other stuff was mostly done to people with melanin, so you can't find any reason to be unhappy with it? Is it because you're upset at that Norse king a thousand years ago who declared his country was now christian, making the history of the norse religion way harder to discover now? My thoughts are that the racism and xenophobia of those people are fine by them, but only when done towards those that are minorities in that person's culture now.
Hah, Dan, you think you know soooooooo much. Xmas trees come from a box at home depot and are made in china. The only thing French about those trees is the plastic made by Du Pont in Beaumont . . . . .Texas.
I love when people equate Jesus to different gods in different cultures. If you know anything about mythology at all, you know those claims are just blatantly made up. My favorite one is “The virgin birth was stolen from the birth of Dionysus.” Dionysus was conceived by Semele and Zeus. When Semele wanted to see Zeus’ true form, she vaporized. To save the developing demigod, Zeus sowed Dionysus into his thigh and later “gave birth” to him. It has nothing to do with a virgin birth. And that is just one of the many “stolen” mythological stories.
Dan McClellan is showing that these holiday traditions are not pagan per se there is an equivocation fallacy in the word Christian I think. so these traditions are Christian in the sense that the people who came up with them call themselves Christians. but they are not Christian in the sense that it has to do with religious traditions call Christianity or even more to the point anything that has to do with the tenants of Jesus that people can also called Christianity. I think the man whom Dan is addressing clearly means that these traditions did not derive from any Christian theology especially anything associated with the Bible. so to call these traditions Christian is like calling Coca-Cola Christian because the people who made soda or Coke specifically were most likely Christian. I went to the traditions or soda have to do with Christian theology or more specifically the Bible? nothing.
Shouldn't we be doing something about the mythical sources of the day of the week as well: Woden's Day? Thor's Day? Equally important as saying Christmas is pagan.
Christmas is a religious holiday that is a whole season. The English names for the days of the week are named after Germanic deities, but that’s it. There’s no much more to say about them… is there something you want to say about them?
The names of the week shouldn't bother any Christian . In the same way when an atheists says " Goodbye " which means " God be with you " shouldn't bother an atheist
I find that many people that visit this site only have a head knowledge of the Bible . There is no personal relationship with God the Creator through his son Jesus Christ . A glass half full yearning for more ! Taste and see that the Lord is good ! Read the Gospel of John and see God's plan of salvation ! You are very special to Him . Take a leap of faith and ask Jesus to reveal himself to you......He will !
Earth is a backward third-world planet, after Mercury and Mars. We are to remember Christ by breaking bread or, like we do on thanksgiving, by a meal. What should we be doing on Thanksgiving? Giving from our bounty? Do this in remembrance of me. (1Co 11:24 NABO)
Holidays are for the kids. Nowhere is intolerance taught; at least here in America to the best of my understanding. I wonder if Coca Cola will one day become the official drink of Christians..........
In addition: I'm shocked that there aren't more Christian observances (pretty much offended, I'll explain). Johan [proper sp.] of Ark is probably one of the most prominent defenders of the faith, I would expect Josephus to up there as well. Johan lifted up her brother unto her own death and was exceedingly pious. Like a double portion of righteousness. No wonder so much interest is put into tombs. And as such I'm sure where hers is an eternal fire burns...... Nice sweater btw.
If you don't think I, a non Christen, should be celibrating "your" holiday, Then I don't belive that you should be seeking treatment in my secular hospitals. Go see a faith healer.
Your ‘secular’ hospitals staffed by many religious observants? Can you even show a hospital staffed exclusively with atheists? Religious people form the majority and are the majority in pretty much all careers and occupations.
The practice of colordying eggs and of having an "easter" basket began in ancient Egypt, and was adopted by Coptic Christians, along with many more ancient practices.
Answering the title cold: The name is christian, and so is the bolt on 'nativity' nonsense.... But the winter frstival itself, predates christianity by 2-3 millennia at least, and almost every other aspect of christmas has a pagan (aka 'non-christian') origin. Responses. Trees are just a modification of the pagan tradition of bringing forest boughs and greenery into the home. Elves? Or Faerae. Not nice....glamour, kidnapping infants... Etc... Easter .... Definitely christian invention... But pagan appropriation of it, somehow seems poetic... Explaining how the appropriation occurred, tends to confirm the appropriation. Vis a vie... 'made their own', intent is largely irrelevant compared to outcome. Appropriation of the logos and the golden rule, does tend to position Christianity to appropriate pretty much any aspect of culture it chooses, unless opposed.
You forgot to cite your sources. You know, primary documents that back up your claims. And no, I'm not going to google everything for you, because I won't be able to find them. Because they don't exist. So find them yourself or stop saying this crap.
@@hive_indicator318Really? I really wasn't aware that.... the archeology done at Durrington walls showing major midwinter festivals occurring circa 2000 bce, and confirming conclusions from previous excavations at other henges... was disputed? Likewise It's not like most historians acknowledge that Yule, Saturnalia, Solstices and other winter festivals precede any notion of Christianity or even Judaism.... Reaching from the Arctic circle to Egypt and from Britain in the west, well into the east... Which bit do you think is even vaguely controversial?
@@MrMortal_Ra Well turfing out the Easter nonsense which is an invention as I acknowledge above.... You could try watching some of Dan's other videos... Where he acknowledges... the bringing of forest greenery into the house is a well testified non-christian tradition.... Bringing a whole tree in... Is just an obvious modification of that tradition.
‘Scholar of the bible and religion.’ Scholar of the bible I get but religion? What do you mean by scholar of religion? Which religion? Or is it religions. Your claim is asinine. You are overreaching my man. Just stay in your lane and stick with ‘scholar of the bible.’
Dan has a PhD in Theology and Religion from the University of Exeter. What more credentials would you like to see before he can identify as a scholar of religion?
@BenM61 I can see your point. Its a broad topic. The Bible may be his area of focus but that spills over into the broader realm of religion. Seminars on 1st temple Judaism will expose you to Mesopotamian and Egyptian religions. The study of 2nd temple Judaism will expose you to Zoroastrianism and the Greco-Roman religions. I don't know how much Dan knows about every religion on Earth but he has the tools to conduct proper research and analyze them in the correct cultural context.
From his U Birmingham page: "Dan’s research focuses on conceptualizations of deity, scripture, and religious identity through the methodological lenses of cognitive linguistics, the cognitive science of religion, textual criticism, historical criticism, and rhetorical criticism."
Easy enough to find but here's one source of the 1821 poem Old Santeclaus with Much_Delight. One interesting bit: the bad boys get stick with which their parents can beat them! How times have changed en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Santeclaus_with_Much_Delight
It sounds like the whole Easter naming convention would be equivalent of saying "4th of July" was celebrating a Roman emperor "Julius Caeser" and then taken and appropriated by Americans. (note: I know that it is also called Independence Day but throughout my childhood we would call it the "4th of July")
Give it a few hundred more years, conspiracy theorists will start believing that…if they haven’t already.
That's a very good analogy, I didn't quite understand why they would name a holiday after a month, but the "4th" and other days like "9 11" and well as "July 7th" in the UK, are all "named" like this, they do have official names, but without written record I could see the official name falling away in favour of the colloquial name.
It would be like saying Wednesday is celebrating Woden
@@83croissant Wait, it _isn't???_ (Said a scandalized neo-heathen probably.)
@@83croissant Neopagans unironically claim this lol
Amazing how many of the points Dan typically debunks made it into this one response.
Sort of the Anti-Dan 😆
The more videos like this I see, the more I think people just want to feel smug and smart
I've seen a lot of critics of Christianity point out how Christians often try to play the victim, but watching this guy made me realize how much the rest of us do it. "Christianity robbed paganism" is often a way of saying, "Christianity hurt me."
It should be noted that Christian victimhood often leads to moral panics and legislation, while atheist victimhood is mainly just bitching. That being said, having been on both sides, I think we can all use some introspection and fact checking.
Well ... Let's be fair... Christianity has been pretty destructive...
@@DJTheTrainmanWalker In what way?
@@mcdonaldsorwhatevers Where would you like to start? Circumcellions attacking folks in the hope they would be killed and get to heaven? How about the century of civil war on the Arian 'heresy'? Constant attempts to conquer the Bulgars? 30 years of war in Arabia bequeathing us Islam? The Cathar Genocide? Justification of Slavery? Colonialism, Adolph Hitler, communism....
I left out the crusades, cos they are too boring.
I'm not sure I buy your analysis. Christians can be annoying. Christians can be obnoxious. Christians can be irritating. To somebody like this content creator who is white and male, Christianity wasn't something that would hurt him. Christianity would be like a traffic detour or something like that. It wouldn't be this trauma that other groups would experience such a child who is wondering if they're gay or not and they hear "god hates the gays".
I think a better explanation is this. People encounter a crazy Christian. This Christian is very very annoying and nasty. After all, nothing says Christian like "those" Christians. So already, we're not off to a good start. Christians have a bad image so now, they get less benefit of the doubt.
So then, this guy watches some video about Christians stealing and enslaving people in other countries. He goes "huh.. the people in this religion aren't good people." Then, he watches a tiktok or something that claims that Christians stole Christmas holidays .. and it seems plausible. remember, Christians lost the benefit of the doubt. No more charity. No more good will assumptions. It's just a "Well, they were garbage and it's likely they're garbage in this."
let this be a lesson to everybody. Especially white people. Everybody is and can be used to define their group. You aren't an individual to many people. You are a living example of what the other people who look like you are. So if you behave badly, that will generate a generalization and stereotyping. For example.. when I see conservative Christians, I import a basic data set that includes.. republican, Trump voter, lies a lot, probably abuses children, doesn't really know their religion, hypocrite, violent, can look polite but is very dangerous. Then, I meet a conservative Christian and if they exhibit enough of those traits.. I get a "Yep, I was right".. Or, I could add on a trait or remove a trait. But it's harder to remove negative traits. It's far easier to add negative traits. So again, put your best foot forward or be crazy charismatic and charming so you can get away with murder. If you don't know if you're crazy charismatic and charming.. then you aren't. Pretty appeal is measurable.
@@mcdonaldsorwhateversIs this a serious question? I mean, every religion has its problems, and Christianity is hardly immune. Leaving aside forced conversions, and happy-fun-times like the Inquisition and the Salem witch trials, the most destructive thing this religion has done, and continues to do, it push out-dated and harmful dogma that allows bigots to justify the continued persecution of anyone they deem to be “other”.
I find it interesting, the difference between an angry guy in his backyard, spouting off what he thinks he knows/believes and wants to shit on other people's traditions and the things they derive meaning from and a guy who actually knows, despite what he believes, and is informed by what he has researched. Maybe it is just me, but there is a certain kind of charm with informed beliefs and faith.
Merry Christmas - from a non-christian. You give me the paid day off and I'll say whatever you want. ;)
New subscriber to this channel here. I'm really appreciating Dan's sincere, objective & logical academic approach. I wish more people would have this kind of intelligence & maturity when discussing these sensitive topics. So first off, thank you for this interesting & insightful video. On a personal note, my family & I love celebrating Christmas in our own simple secular way, while respecting our Christian friends' right to celebrate it in their own religious manner. I'm an agnostic philosopher who likes Stoic & Eastern philosophy, my wife is Buddhist & my daughter is just a young kid. There's really nothing Christian about our family. And yet we love celebrating Christmas. And we don't care what others say or think about that, one way or another. I'm tired of the vitriolic extremists, on both sides. Like that ill informed guy in the video who misunderstands & misinterprets the influences & elements of the old pagan traditions had on Christianity when it became the dominant religion over ancient Europe. But I also find the nauseating Christian extremists & zealots who think Christmas should only be celebrated in the most dogmatic hardline way possible, equally insufferable & grossly annoying. Why can't people just respect each other's freedom to celebrate Christmas as they wish? Or respect the right of non-Christians, agnostics, atheists, etc. to celebrate (or not to celebrate) Christmas as they see fit? Just live & let live, people! As a native Romanian, I found out recently that many of the pagan Zamolxian traditions & values of my ancient Geto-Dacian ancestors were passed on, preserved or appropriated into the Romanian Orthodox religion when it took over our society roughly two thousand years ago. Which personally I appreciate because it's nice to have these ancestral cultural influences, while also respecting the modern religious aspect. Anyway, Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to everyone! And let's have more peace & love in this world too. ☮😍
I certainly wouldn't tell anyone else that they shouldn't be celebrating Christmas, but as someone who grew up in Judaism, it does irk me a bit when people tell me that I should celebrate Christmas because it's not really a Christian holiday.
Absolutely right. IMO the proper position for either a Christian or a Christmas-celebtating non-Christian (like me) is that you _can_ celebrate Christmas. Saying that you _should_ celebrate Christmas is extremely rude, chauvinistic and - whether intentionally or not - antisemitic.
@@GaryDunionas a Jew myself, I don’t think it’s inherently antisemitic because of the new secular nature of Christmas. But I do think it’s rude or a bit invasive to care so much about other people not celebrating that you order them to celebrate.
I'm not a Christian, but celebrate in my own way, wish my Christian friends "Merry Christmas" and do the same with Kauwnsa, and everything else. It's called "living and let live." Or as Sgt Hulker said in the movie stripes, "lighten up Francis."
Peace on Earth.
Good will toward mankind.
Another great shirt. I think I’m going to get that one too. Your daughter nailed it!
Jeez! The guy in the clip should really audition for the next Hollywood version of A Christmas Carol. He'd make the definitive Ebenezer Scrooge! What a humbug!
I never knew how Bede was pronounced, having only ever read it in books. You are a fount of information!
I always felt Christmas has become a religious holiday coexisting with a secular holiday. Here in China people have no problem with “merry Christmas” greetings or the word’s use in marketing but in the West people want to make sure an umbrella term is used to capture all winter holidays for whatever reason and some just because of their disdain for Christianity I guess.
It's not only about a dislike of Christianity, and I'd suggest that's the least likely reason (if the one that gets the most volume). There are several other holidays which have non-Christian religious origins, like Channukah (or whatever spelling you prefer; a Jewish holiday), the Winter Solstice (often celebrated by neopagans and Wiccans), the modern Kwanza (adopted largely in the African American community in an effort to both distance from commercialism and honor non-Christian heritages), and Humanlight (an effort by Humanists to offer a Christmas alternative that won't revolve around Christian narratives) are a few. The idea is that those who _don't_ share your religious affiliation should also be included in the well-wishes, so why not just use a generic term that would include
But it's not often just about the religious issues: much of US Christmas energy is devoted to commercialism and stressful cultural expectations that many people have come to dread. For those who become annoyed by the incessant music in every public space, the bombardment of advertising and its affect on any ordinary store visit, the sensory assault of decorations, and social demands of family, to say nothing of the financial burden of finding (usually buying) everyone you know some kind of gift, the holiday can feel like a peak stress event, especially for homemakers.
As such, sometimes you just want to ignore explicitly Christmas--with its psychological associations with so much unhappiness and stress--and just communicate the spirit of your intention: I hope your holidays, whatever they are, under whatever social or religious umbrella, are happy.
12/16/2014
In 1659, the Massachusetts Bay Colony enacted a law called Penalty for Keeping Christmas. The notion was that such “festivals as were superstitiously kept in other countries” were a “great dishonor of God and offence of others.” Anyone found celebrating Christmas by failing to work, “feasting, or any other way… shall pay for every such offence five shillings.”, from the Official Web Site of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
"..pure and utter nonsense...". Dan is funneir then my PHI 101professor, who was basically a calvainist presuppositional apologist. "We're gonna put that proposition in a special case, and put in a special basket, and call it your special basket-case".
He’s an angry elf.
I am very much an atheist these days and have been a long time, but I will never stop celebrating Christmas the way I was raised.
It saddens me that so many of my fellow atheists consider raising children with these traditions to be deceitful. It's a pleasure to have a young child that lives in a world of wonder, magic and imagination. And an equal though bittersweet pleasure to watch them grow out of it on their own as they start to apply the critical thinking skills you taught them.
Great comment! As an agnostic myself, watching my daughter growing up, I see & feel exactly what you sincerely & objectively described.
Love the shirt and your video! 😊
My favourite custom associated with Christmas 🎅 is the practice of eating KFC 🍗🍟in Japan 🎎🛫🗾
As a secular American Jew I opted for our traditional practice of eating at a Chinese restaurant on Christmas this year.
Sounds like cultural appropriation!!!!
Christmas functions as both a Christian and a secular festival at the same time. It embraces a wide range of experiences and meanings at the same time and does that really well.
There's a difference between "celebrating" Christmas and taking December 25th off work. Saturday is a Jewish Sabbath and Sunday is a Christian "sabbath". So anyone that takes weekends off is also "guilty" of the same thing.
The weekend is not from Judaism and Christianity but from union's and the labor movement
@@basedgamerguy818 Why those two days though?
@@aaronpolichar7936Because they were important days for various Christian sects and Jews too who were active in the labour movement.
@@mugikuyu9403 So, it was about Judaism and Christianity, in part. In those religions the Sabbath is supposed to be a day of rest. I would guess that religious support helped get those days enacted as standard days off from work.
@@aaronpolichar7936 it’s not so much that religious support helped get those days enacted as days off, it’s that everyone (or almost everyone) was religious and would have liked to have those days off.
Thanks for the great video! What's the name of the idea of a saint dying on the same day as birth. Us Jews have a similar concept in Midrashic literature where Moses is said to have died on his birthday.
Us Christians got the idea from the moses concept
Most ideas Christians hold to come from ancient forms of Judaism'
Remember to us Christians Jesus was/ is the " new moses "
GREAT t-shirt. 👍
I would argue that most Christians take December 25th as Jesus' birthday for granted - the vast majority of people in general, let alone Christians, have never thought about it hard enough to have taken it upon themselves to research the tradition. and so come to an alternate conclusion.
I love the integrity. Yes, as an atheist I find the de-mythologizing of Christian narratives and texts to be satisfying and fascinating, but am equally appreciative of the counter-narratives I often encountered in neopagan circles asserting many utterly unsupported (or sometimes scantily supported, if you squint real hard) claims about the supposed "pagan origins" of many Christian stories or ideas. The knife of truth cuts both ways, friends.
I would like to ask you, dr. Dan, can you discuss other possible connections between queen esther and the goddess ishtar? I believe i heard from christopher hitchens that the queen esther story is a euhemerization of the ishtar/dumizid tale.
Something I enjoy about this response:
1) How many Christmas traditions in the Anglosphere are relatively recent - within the past couple centuries. Many of the basic ideas in Christmas celebrations in English-speaking traditions (trees, toy-making elves, Santa & sleigh, etc.) to the revival of Christmas celebration during the early to mid-19th century. (For example, even though Christmas trees had been part of German Christmas celebrations since the early 15th century, their introduction to English culture seems to have started with the German Prince Albert.) I am also reminded of Dickens's A Christmas Carol, in which it defined & described the "Christmas spirit" and Christmas traditions in the Anglosphere but never really mentions Jesus's birth.
2) The English name for the holiday "Easter" based on the Germanic month is reminiscent of how the term "Yule" - also noted by the Venerable Bede for the month/s the holiday is celebrated - has been used as a name for Christmas in English & Scandinavian languages.
Is there any truth that December 25th was chosen as Jesus’s birthday because of Hebrew prediction that the messiah would be conceived around the time of Passover?
I like the Japanese Christmas tradition of eating KFC. I'm always up for some fried chicken!
🍗😋
Let's be honest: Christmas is a commercial holiday.
Just how I like it.
Regarding Santa's reindeer, I've heard people say that they were inspired by the Norse god Odin. I'm not sure how true it is, but I've always thought it was an interesting theory.
The tenuous connection people make with Odin was that he has an eight-legged horse, and Santa has “eight tiny reindeer “ … which doesn’t prove anything at all. To prove some continuity with Odin you would have to show Clement Clark Moore made St. Nick an intentional reference to Odin and Sleipnir? I ain’t buying it.
As to Easter eggs, in Eastern Orthodox they are often painted red. This ties into a tradition about Mary Magdalene having an audience with Emperor Tiberius in Rome. I am not sure how old the tradition is, but again has nothing to do with pagan tradition. I am not 100% but I remember there being a story about Mary bring eggs to Jesus' tomb that miraculously turned red.
‘Jesus is the reason’
Dan, what about 17th century accusations of pagan influences from puritans? why don’t you address those ? genuinely curious i don’t know where to start ascertaining
The tradition of bringing evergreen boughs into the home to decorate or to hang them over the door to ward off evil spirits and demons, is a pagan tradition that can be traced back to the ancient Egyptians. However, it is also true that it was German Christians that first came up with the idea of bringing the entire tree into the house. So everyone wins that one 😜
To the people that spread the weird crap the dudebro did:
Why make these weird claims that you can't back up? With all the genocides and other atrocities committed by people under the guise of this religion, why this? Why try to find stuff? Is it because the other stuff was mostly done to people with melanin, so you can't find any reason to be unhappy with it? Is it because you're upset at that Norse king a thousand years ago who declared his country was now christian, making the history of the norse religion way harder to discover now?
My thoughts are that the racism and xenophobia of those people are fine by them, but only when done towards those that are minorities in that person's culture now.
Hah, Dan, you think you know soooooooo much. Xmas trees come from a box at home depot and are made in china. The only thing French about those trees is the plastic made by Du Pont in Beaumont . . . . .Texas.
Wow...that guy in the video has issues....😮
Why so much hatred?
What about the winter solstice wans't that the 25th while saint nicks day was the 6th?
this man loves his Christmas, i rather celebrate the feast of dedication than pegan mixtures
Most of the feast days can only be celebrated by Jews, if you are a Gentile there are key parts of the feasts you can't partake in.
@thedude9941 all the feasts are for jews, and I am a blood jew also agrees with the new testament
So Imaginations the God all Man can do all things even rewake scattered back into ONE power so don't judge never began or ends.
By all rights, Santa's sleigh should be pulled by moose.
Although, confusingly, what you call a moose in North America is what we in Europe call an elk!
@@GaryDunion Which would be less of a problem if we Amwricans didn't call a different animal an elk.
informative
If the person who cut down the first Christmas tree, was a Christian before he cut down the tree, he wasen't after he cut down the tree.
So the final eta migrated from Semele to Bede. I see.
I love when people equate Jesus to different gods in different cultures. If you know anything about mythology at all, you know those claims are just blatantly made up.
My favorite one is “The virgin birth was stolen from the birth of Dionysus.”
Dionysus was conceived by Semele and Zeus. When Semele wanted to see Zeus’ true form, she vaporized. To save the developing demigod, Zeus sowed Dionysus into his thigh and later “gave birth” to him. It has nothing to do with a virgin birth.
And that is just one of the many “stolen” mythological stories.
I don't quite get the problem this guy has. If these holidays are not Christian, why does he have a problem celebrating them?
Dan McClellan is showing that these holiday traditions are not pagan per se there is an equivocation fallacy in the word Christian I think.
so these traditions are Christian in the sense that the people who came up with them call themselves Christians.
but they are not Christian in the sense that it has to do with religious traditions call Christianity or even more to the point anything that has to do with the tenants of Jesus that people can also called Christianity.
I think the man whom Dan is addressing clearly means that these traditions did not derive from any Christian theology especially anything associated with the Bible.
so to call these traditions Christian is like calling Coca-Cola Christian because the people who made soda or Coke specifically were most likely Christian.
I went to the traditions or soda have to do with Christian theology or more specifically the Bible? nothing.
Shouldn't we be doing something about the mythical sources of the day of the week as well: Woden's Day? Thor's Day? Equally important as saying Christmas is pagan.
Christmas is a religious holiday that is a whole season. The English names for the days of the week are named after Germanic deities, but that’s it. There’s no much more to say about them… is there something you want to say about them?
The names of the week shouldn't bother any Christian . In the same way when an atheists says " Goodbye " which means " God be with you " shouldn't bother an atheist
@@ramadadiver8112 I’ve never heard any Christians complain about the days of the week
@@AaronGeller
I have . Usually from the same Christians who claim Christmas is pagan . Usually ultra conservative fundamentalists
The absolute weight and burden of this man's knowledge is enough to make Atlas and his mighty femurs turn to dust.
That guy's last name is "Scrooge", right?
Lotta haters out there, I guess.
"Some people suck - Tom Segura
Help me
I find that many people that visit this site only have a head knowledge of the Bible . There is no personal relationship with God the Creator through his son Jesus Christ . A glass half full yearning for more ! Taste and see that the Lord is good ! Read the Gospel of John and see God's plan of salvation ! You are very special to Him . Take a leap of faith and ask Jesus to reveal himself to you......He will !
Earth is a backward third-world planet, after Mercury and Mars.
We are to remember Christ by breaking bread or, like we do on thanksgiving, by a meal. What should we be doing on Thanksgiving? Giving from our bounty?
Do this in remembrance of me. (1Co 11:24 NABO)
But... what is a "christian holiday"?
Feast of the immaculate conception?
A holiday created by Christians for uniquely Christian reasons
Holidays are for the kids. Nowhere is intolerance taught; at least here in America to the best of my understanding. I wonder if Coca Cola will one day become the official drink of Christians..........
In addition: I'm shocked that there aren't more Christian observances (pretty much offended, I'll explain). Johan [proper sp.] of Ark is probably one of the most prominent defenders of the faith, I would expect Josephus to up there as well. Johan lifted up her brother unto her own death and was exceedingly pious. Like a double portion of righteousness. No wonder so much interest is put into tombs. And as such I'm sure where hers is an eternal fire burns...... Nice sweater btw.
And twin cherubim sit atop and defend the ark. Not Michael, not Gabriel, but the witnesses.
Samson knew how to spot and destroy the fake temple.
If you don't think I, a non Christen, should be celibrating "your" holiday, Then I don't belive that you should be seeking treatment in my secular hospitals. Go see a faith healer.
Your ‘secular’ hospitals staffed by many religious observants? Can you even show a hospital staffed exclusively with atheists? Religious people form the majority and are the majority in pretty much all careers and occupations.
Public hospitals were built by Christians . You will notice a lot of hospitals have " St " in their name
The practice of colordying eggs and of having an "easter" basket began in ancient Egypt, and was adopted by Coptic Christians, along with many more ancient practices.
Answering the title cold: The name is christian, and so is the bolt on 'nativity' nonsense.... But the winter frstival itself, predates christianity by 2-3 millennia at least, and almost every other aspect of christmas has a pagan (aka 'non-christian') origin.
Responses.
Trees are just a modification of the pagan tradition of bringing forest boughs and greenery into the home.
Elves? Or Faerae. Not nice....glamour, kidnapping infants... Etc...
Easter .... Definitely christian invention... But pagan appropriation of it, somehow seems poetic...
Explaining how the appropriation occurred, tends to confirm the appropriation. Vis a vie... 'made their own', intent is largely irrelevant compared to outcome.
Appropriation of the logos and the golden rule, does tend to position Christianity to appropriate pretty much any aspect of culture it chooses, unless opposed.
Bzzzt, wrongo
@@Nick-o-timeArcheology and history says otherwise.
You forgot to cite your sources. You know, primary documents that back up your claims. And no, I'm not going to google everything for you, because I won't be able to find them. Because they don't exist. So find them yourself or stop saying this crap.
@@hive_indicator318Really? I really wasn't aware that.... the archeology done at Durrington walls showing major midwinter festivals occurring circa 2000 bce, and confirming conclusions from previous excavations at other henges... was disputed?
Likewise It's not like most historians acknowledge that Yule, Saturnalia, Solstices and other winter festivals precede any notion of Christianity or even Judaism.... Reaching from the Arctic circle to Egypt and from Britain in the west, well into the east...
Which bit do you think is even vaguely controversial?
@@MrMortal_Ra Well turfing out the Easter nonsense which is an invention as I acknowledge above.... You could try watching some of Dan's other videos... Where he acknowledges... the bringing of forest greenery into the house is a well testified non-christian tradition.... Bringing a whole tree in... Is just an obvious modification of that tradition.
‘Scholar of the bible and religion.’ Scholar of the bible I get but religion? What do you mean by scholar of religion? Which religion? Or is it religions. Your claim is asinine. You are overreaching my man. Just stay in your lane and stick with ‘scholar of the bible.’
Dan has a PhD in Theology and Religion from the University of Exeter. What more credentials would you like to see before he can identify as a scholar of religion?
@@ryanrevland4333 That maybe the case but it is as meaningless as to say Dan has a PhD in science. Too vague and nonsensical.
@BenM61 I can see your point. Its a broad topic. The Bible may be his area of focus but that spills over into the broader realm of religion. Seminars on 1st temple Judaism will expose you to Mesopotamian and Egyptian religions.
The study of 2nd temple Judaism will expose you to Zoroastrianism and the Greco-Roman religions.
I don't know how much Dan knows about every religion on Earth but he has the tools to conduct proper research and analyze them in the correct cultural context.
He’s a scholar of at least three religions that use texts from the Bible
From his U Birmingham page:
"Dan’s research focuses on conceptualizations of deity, scripture, and religious identity through the methodological lenses of cognitive linguistics, the cognitive science of religion, textual criticism, historical criticism, and rhetorical criticism."
Easy enough to find but here's one source of the 1821 poem Old Santeclaus with Much_Delight. One interesting bit: the bad boys get stick with which their parents can beat them! How times have changed en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Santeclaus_with_Much_Delight