ALRIGHT GUYS, I'VE FINALLY UPDATED MY WEBSITE! You all can find the written summary of Iliad book 10 via this link :) I hope these help xx www.moaninc.co.uk/homers-iliad/book-10-summary
In my translation, it says Nestor uses his foot to wake up Diomedes, so I just picture the old dude kicking poor Diomedes while shouting that he is lazy... The nerve on Nestor, who himself was sleeping 10 minutes earlier, and adding the fact that Diomedes basically carried the Achaean army two days ago... Also, Diomedes by himself saved Nestor (who just goes into the battlefield to wander a bit and then proclaim that despite being old he was there!) from Hector a few hours ago, while Odisseus was running away... Seriously Nestor, what the hell? As for the Book itself, half of it was people waking other people up and the rest looked like a tutorial mission from a stealth video game. It was cool and fun, but it felt like it isn't really crucial to the events, as any other book so far. It's great that we got a side-mission with arguably the best possible tag-team, but the same story obviously wouldn't be as interesting if the protagonists were any other of the active achaeans (so, not counting you-know-who). As it was, it was cool and I loved that it ended with the pair going straight into the sea and then being anointed in oil and chillin'. But still, the whole thing felt a bit like fan-fiction to me, and apparently some people think the whole Book was not written by Homer himself, but added later. Do you have any thoughts on this? Note 0 - Totally agree regarding what you say at 3:45, love those moments when we get a bit more of social detail. Note 1 - 11:52 Agamemnon also offered stuff to the volunteers btw, two black sheep with respective lambs :) Note 2 - In the Portuguese translation, the Trojan spy is described as "ugly", and the translator is a scholar specialized in Ancient Greek so that should be correct. Note 3 - 19:34 you say they leave in the chariot, but in my translation they only take the horses - Diomedes actually contemplates if he should carry the chariot over his head or something (verse 505), which I thought was hilarious, but then just hops into a horse when Athena tells him to get moving. Note 4 - sorry for the long comment, I swear I'm not Phoenix!
Yoo , In my translation , It says Nestor went up to him and stirred him with his heel to rouse him , upbraiding and urging him to bestir himself , I pictured this way too , he must have kicked Diomedes .
Aw; poor Dolon. Just your average Tro-Bro, doing his job, spying on the Achaeans and whatnot. Then what happens; he goes and tries to break Diomedes' sword in two...with his neck...like a boss. RIP
Really enjoying these videos. Way better than the actual iliad. Lol. but yes, Dolon was ugly. The word translated as evil is the same as the word "bad".
In my translation (the book doesn't mention who the translator is, but it's by Maple, an Indian publisher), it says Dolon was "ill-favoured", so I'm thinking maybe evil looking could mean that he was looked upon evily/unfavourably?
Of course, the most interesting thing about Book 10 is that is not part of the original Iliad. It was written much later (as in possibly as much a century later?), by someone else and inserted in the text of the Iliad. The reason for this why (it would appear) to introduce (and/or emphasize) an element of "metis" in the character of Odysseus that the "new poets" (who composed the other poems of the cycle -- including the Odyssey, which was composed around 600 BC by a post-Homeric poet) felt was lacking, or insufficiently remarked. So it was an exercise in "back-filling" the Iliad to bring it in line the beginning and (especially) the end the new poets tacked on the Iliad the "complete" the epic. If anyone can reference a legitimate scholarly argument that Book 10 in not an interpolation, I'd love to know about it because in over 18 months of research and reading many 100's of sources (as well as my own analysis), I have yet to find one. Scholarly opinion seems to be quite settled on this point. But Erica, I love your enthusiasm and the way you present these books! It's vastly important and I'm more the happy you're doing it. I've gotten much enjoyment from watching your videos.
According to one of the versions it was prophesied that if Resus's horses would drink water from a river/well/fountain (I can't find that story so I don't know from where exactly) the Troy wouldn't fall so that's why Diomedes and Odysseus went to steal them. However I have a question: what type of combination would those two guys be on a rugby field? Number 8 and scrum half or fly half and one of the centres? 😉 Have a nice day everyone!
Diomedes might be my favorite character from the Trojan war. The guy is just so interesting and cool. I mean, the man fought a god! PS: I’m listening to The Women Of Troy by Pat Barker on audible and it’s VERY good.
Well Achilles is off in his tent being a child, so Diomedes is really the next best warrior. Diomedes is also incredibly unpredictable because he’s a regular run of the mill guy who seems to just fear … well, nothing. Achilles is son of a god and has a reputation. They’re totally different characters, but given Achilles isn’t an immediate threat, the Trojans are focused on the current issue rather than fussing over the possibility of Achilles coming out (at this point, anyways). When Achilles does come out, believe me - no man is out there saying “meh, not as scary as Diomedes though” 😂 Mans just STANDS where the Trojans can see him and they LITERALLY SCATTER. So I think it’s more so that they were expecting Achilles, but were NOT ready for Diomedes. But also I could be wrong, they don’t explicitly say that in the poem so 🤷🏻♀️ Just an interpretation
@@MoAnInc I couldn’t imagine fighting the two of them, especially with Athena on their side. but I also wouldn’t want to fight an army with a pissed off Zeus on their side. Really looking forward to more reviews, you keep me on the edge of my seat how you tell it haha.
We need more women into the classics. I even got my ex-wife, a Korean adult model, who barely spoke English, into "The Iliad". She barely speaks much h English still but can sure tell you about Achilles and Hector, lol. But seriously, many Classics teach good life lessons. And we have "Daddy's Girls" and "Mama's Boys". Like in Ancient Rome, how a man publicly acquitted himself was a testament to their mother, and her raising of him. Like how the Gracchi Brothers' mother Cornelia was venerated.
Most scholars believe this book was added by a later author because it doesn't vibe with the rest of the story. Especiallly Diomedes killing asleep Thracians. For this reason, I often skip it, actually. One of my least favourite books of the Iliad for sure.
no one volunteers to go on the night raid. Diomedes volunteers to go as long as he doesn't go alone, people are climbing over each other to go with him. I think they know that going on a night mission with Diomedes is safer than staying in the Greek Camp surrounded by warriors if the Trojans are outside
I think a lot of your viewers are missing why the killing of Dolon a pitiful prisoner who cooperated and surrendered is just to the warfighters and Greeks who heard the story. And a soldier myself I’ll explain since his killing is a violation of the Geneva conventions that we hold today not execute prisoners. Dolon deserves death because he is contemptible. He volunteers for the mission and doesn’t have the stones or balls to accept death is a likely consequence, him not being a competent or skilled warrior but simply his greed getting ahead of him. He doesn’t know his place. He’s not the main character as you zoomers would say. Secondly, he surrenders without putting up a fight at all. You see elsewhere in the Iliad like when Ajax and hector duel or other incidents where the combatants survive and part ways there is honorable combat offered first and divine circumstances intervenes to spare them. Dolon is an only son, and his death is a tragedy for his family who have no heir after him. He asks them to take him prisoner because of this. Yet they cruelly behead him after he cooperates. There is another instance where meneleaus accepts the surrender of a noble Trojan and agemmennon comes and kills him and chides his brother for his mercy. The point being, it is the thick of combat and the time is for killing. Not taking prisoners. It is time to attritite the enemy army. One of the biggest slaughters of combat in modern history was the so called higway of death in the 1991 Gulf war between Iraq under Saddma Hussein and the US and its allies. Iraq invaded its neighbour Kuwait over a dispute over oil among other things. The US ended forming a coalition to expel Iraq in a short war that was almost done exclusively by AirPower and for the first time filmed by cable tv. Not to go into geopolitics of the 20 year war between the US and Iraq (1991-2011). But the Iraqis were defeated quickly and retreated back to Iraq in a massive convoy. This convoy was targeted by US bombers despite white flags etc and completely destroyed basically obliterating a huge chunk of Iraqi armour. Why were these soldiers killed despite retreating back to Iraq and given a ceasefire treaty was hours or days away? Because there was no formal surrender and the US wanted to destroy the Iraqis armour in case they decided to invade Iraq (they ended up not doing so in the first gulf war but did so in the second gulf war 10 years later in 2003). A retreating enemy is still a fair target. There is no honor in letting him go for you to fight him again which is why agememnon killed meneleus’ prisoner and diomedes kills Dolon. This is the math of combat. The Greeks just had the worst possible day of the war and came close to annihilation. Diomedes wants revenge and dead Trojans where he can get them. They could have easily ransomed Dolon and made him promise not to return to the war (which happens to another Trojan). Them saying he will come back to fight them wasn’t strictly true in his case given his cowardice but true as a general principle. They also wouldn’t be swayed by gifts and personal riches of a hostage when every dead Trojan at this critical moment meant a saved Greek. Unlike Dolon, they care more about the good of the army then personal satisfaction (they were on their own mission to raise morale after all). Since the war was very much on, it didn’t make sense to spare Dolon, as he was not noble enough or honorable enough to be given such mercy. He didn’t fight. He betrayed his countrymen without even being tortured. He chose to do the mission out of hubris (hence odysssus comment on the fact he wouldn’t even be able to handle the horses of Achillies if he actually did win them). The biggest contemptible aspect of Dolon to me personally is how readily he confesses not at all willing to give his life to protect his brothers as modern soldiers me even insurgents we fought, most dedicated men will rather die or suffer horrifically then give up intelligence to the enemy that will harm their comrades. He offers intelligence that will cause harm to his camp to save his wretched skin. This is contemptible to me as a modern person who has fought in western military, but also to Odysseus and Diomedes too and any Ancient Greek who heard this. Some of the most noble deeds in the Iliad are friends dying to protect their friends, or even risking their lives to protect the bodies of their fall end comrades and their armour from being spoils of war to the enemy. This is one of the noble things of war, the selflessness and camaraderie are a big reason why many miss it. Where you and your brothers are fighting for each other (we realized the political reasons given were bullshit and soon it became about getting each other home safely). It’s the best and worst of humanity. This type of selflessness is absent in Dolon who only cares about his father going without his only son. This is also an answer to Hector choosing to fight despite the plea of Andromache to just quit and care about his family y and baby instead of certain death for a doomed cause. But hector has a duty to countrymen and though he knows the cause is doomed and he is fated to die, does so anyways. Highlights the difference in modern and premodern audiences reading the Iliad as lots of people seem to ask why hector who loves his wife and child so much still commits to the fight in book six. If he did just care about his family then he would have been like Dolon, a man of no honor who does not posses friendship of selflessness. He gives up intelligence that will harm his country without even being tortured, just to spare his life. And lastly he’s dumb to do so without even getting a guarantee for his life. He fails at that too. Odysseus sidesteps his condition and presses him and he continues to spill in a vain hope of mercy if he cooperates. You never count on the mercy of the enemy! You wouldn’t show the same after all.
ALRIGHT GUYS, I'VE FINALLY UPDATED MY WEBSITE! You all can find the written summary of Iliad book 10 via this link :) I hope these help xx www.moaninc.co.uk/homers-iliad/book-10-summary
In my translation, it says Nestor uses his foot to wake up Diomedes, so I just picture the old dude kicking poor Diomedes while shouting that he is lazy... The nerve on Nestor, who himself was sleeping 10 minutes earlier, and adding the fact that Diomedes basically carried the Achaean army two days ago... Also, Diomedes by himself saved Nestor (who just goes into the battlefield to wander a bit and then proclaim that despite being old he was there!) from Hector a few hours ago, while Odisseus was running away... Seriously Nestor, what the hell?
As for the Book itself, half of it was people waking other people up and the rest looked like a tutorial mission from a stealth video game. It was cool and fun, but it felt like it isn't really crucial to the events, as any other book so far. It's great that we got a side-mission with arguably the best possible tag-team, but the same story obviously wouldn't be as interesting if the protagonists were any other of the active achaeans (so, not counting you-know-who). As it was, it was cool and I loved that it ended with the pair going straight into the sea and then being anointed in oil and chillin'. But still, the whole thing felt a bit like fan-fiction to me, and apparently some people think the whole Book was not written by Homer himself, but added later. Do you have any thoughts on this?
Note 0 - Totally agree regarding what you say at 3:45, love those moments when we get a bit more of social detail.
Note 1 - 11:52 Agamemnon also offered stuff to the volunteers btw, two black sheep with respective lambs :)
Note 2 - In the Portuguese translation, the Trojan spy is described as "ugly", and the translator is a scholar specialized in Ancient Greek so that should be correct.
Note 3 - 19:34 you say they leave in the chariot, but in my translation they only take the horses - Diomedes actually contemplates if he should carry the chariot over his head or something (verse 505), which I thought was hilarious, but then just hops into a horse when Athena tells him to get moving.
Note 4 - sorry for the long comment, I swear I'm not Phoenix!
Yoo , In my translation , It says Nestor went up to him and stirred him with his heel to rouse him , upbraiding and urging him to bestir himself , I pictured this way too , he must have kicked Diomedes .
This book is often considered to be a subsequent addition to Homer, but I adore it nonetheless😍❤️
Aw; poor Dolon. Just your average Tro-Bro, doing his job, spying on the Achaeans and whatnot. Then what happens; he goes and tries to break Diomedes' sword in two...with his neck...like a boss. RIP
Thank you for making learning fun :)
🥺 thank YOU for watching my video ✨
Thank you so much for your amazing and very helpful, summary! This made me easily Understand the text for my class work.
I’m so glad!!!! ❤️
This was a badass book! Great video! I love that more and more copies of the Iliad show up in the background by the way
Thank you 💁🏻♀️
Really enjoying these videos. Way better than the actual iliad. Lol.
but yes, Dolon was ugly. The word translated as evil is the same as the word "bad".
The Iliad is MUCH better - I leave out far too much detail!!! But thank you haha
In my translation (the book doesn't mention who the translator is, but it's by Maple, an Indian publisher), it says Dolon was "ill-favoured", so I'm thinking maybe evil looking could mean that he was looked upon evily/unfavourably?
I’m fr watching this at 2 in the morning for school 😅😂but honestly you make it enjoyable
Oh my goodness please sleep tho 😅
@@MoAnInc sleep? What’s that?
lol odysseus wake up 6:58
Of course, the most interesting thing about Book 10 is that is not part of the original Iliad. It was written much later (as in possibly as much a century later?), by someone else and inserted in the text of the Iliad. The reason for this why (it would appear) to introduce (and/or emphasize) an element of "metis" in the character of Odysseus that the "new poets" (who composed the other poems of the cycle -- including the Odyssey, which was composed around 600 BC by a post-Homeric poet) felt was lacking, or insufficiently remarked. So it was an exercise in "back-filling" the Iliad to bring it in line the beginning and (especially) the end the new poets tacked on the Iliad the "complete" the epic.
If anyone can reference a legitimate scholarly argument that Book 10 in not an interpolation, I'd love to know about it because in over 18 months of research and reading many 100's of sources (as well as my own analysis), I have yet to find one. Scholarly opinion seems to be quite settled on this point.
But Erica, I love your enthusiasm and the way you present these books! It's vastly important and I'm more the happy you're doing it. I've gotten much enjoyment from watching your videos.
diomedes passenger princess
Watching you completely fan girl was awesome 😂
Can’t help it hahaha 👯♀️
According to one of the versions it was prophesied that if Resus's horses would drink water from a river/well/fountain (I can't find that story so I don't know from where exactly) the Troy wouldn't fall so that's why Diomedes and Odysseus went to steal them. However I have a question: what type of combination would those two guys be on a rugby field? Number 8 and scrum half or fly half and one of the centres? 😉 Have a nice day everyone!
Diomedes might be my favorite character from the Trojan war. The guy is just so interesting and cool. I mean, the man fought a god!
PS: I’m listening to The Women Of Troy by Pat Barker on audible and it’s VERY good.
That's my man right there!!! For real though, Diomedes is the best guy in there I just UGH.
It’s wild how the Trojans are more scared of Diomedes even though they know Achilles is the best.
Well Achilles is off in his tent being a child, so Diomedes is really the next best warrior. Diomedes is also incredibly unpredictable because he’s a regular run of the mill guy who seems to just fear … well, nothing. Achilles is son of a god and has a reputation. They’re totally different characters, but given Achilles isn’t an immediate threat, the Trojans are focused on the current issue rather than fussing over the possibility of Achilles coming out (at this point, anyways). When Achilles does come out, believe me - no man is out there saying “meh, not as scary as Diomedes though” 😂 Mans just STANDS where the Trojans can see him and they LITERALLY SCATTER. So I think it’s more so that they were expecting Achilles, but were NOT ready for Diomedes.
But also I could be wrong, they don’t explicitly say that in the poem so 🤷🏻♀️ Just an interpretation
@@MoAnInc I couldn’t imagine fighting the two of them, especially with Athena on their side. but I also wouldn’t want to fight an army with a pissed off Zeus on their side. Really looking forward to more reviews, you keep me on the edge of my seat how you tell it haha.
We need more women into the classics. I even got my ex-wife, a Korean adult model, who barely spoke English, into "The Iliad". She barely speaks much h English still but can sure tell you about Achilles and Hector, lol. But seriously, many Classics teach good life lessons. And we have "Daddy's Girls" and "Mama's Boys". Like in Ancient Rome, how a man publicly acquitted himself was a testament to their mother, and her raising of him. Like how the Gracchi Brothers' mother Cornelia was venerated.
Most scholars believe this book was added by a later author because it doesn't vibe with the rest of the story. Especiallly Diomedes killing asleep Thracians. For this reason, I often skip it, actually. One of my least favourite books of the Iliad for sure.
no one volunteers to go on the night raid. Diomedes volunteers to go as long as he doesn't go alone, people are climbing over each other to go with him. I think they know that going on a night mission with Diomedes is safer than staying in the Greek Camp surrounded by warriors if the Trojans are outside
What is tattoo on Erica’s right wrist?
If anyone can answer this correctly I’ll give you a shout out in my next video 👀
Dolon is “ugly” according to my spanish translatiom
Poor Dolon 😂
I think a lot of your viewers are missing why the killing of Dolon a pitiful prisoner who cooperated and surrendered is just to the warfighters and Greeks who heard the story. And a soldier myself I’ll explain since his killing is a violation of the Geneva conventions that we hold today not execute prisoners.
Dolon deserves death because he is contemptible. He volunteers for the mission and doesn’t have the stones or balls to accept death is a likely consequence, him not being a competent or skilled warrior but simply his greed getting ahead of him. He doesn’t know his place. He’s not the main character as you zoomers would say.
Secondly, he surrenders without putting up a fight at all. You see elsewhere in the Iliad like when Ajax and hector duel or other incidents where the combatants survive and part ways there is honorable combat offered first and divine circumstances intervenes to spare them.
Dolon is an only son, and his death is a tragedy for his family who have no heir after him. He asks them to take him prisoner because of this. Yet they cruelly behead him after he cooperates.
There is another instance where meneleaus accepts the surrender of a noble Trojan and agemmennon comes and kills him and chides his brother for his mercy. The point being, it is the thick of combat and the time is for killing. Not taking prisoners. It is time to attritite the enemy army. One of the biggest slaughters of combat in modern history was the so called higway of death in the 1991 Gulf war between Iraq under Saddma Hussein and the US and its allies. Iraq invaded its neighbour Kuwait over a dispute over oil among other things. The US ended forming a coalition to expel Iraq in a short war that was almost done exclusively by AirPower and for the first time filmed by cable tv. Not to go into geopolitics of the 20 year war between the US and Iraq (1991-2011).
But the Iraqis were defeated quickly and retreated back to Iraq in a massive convoy. This convoy was targeted by US bombers despite white flags etc and completely destroyed basically obliterating a huge chunk of Iraqi armour. Why were these soldiers killed despite retreating back to Iraq and given a ceasefire treaty was hours or days away? Because there was no formal surrender and the US wanted to destroy the Iraqis armour in case they decided to invade Iraq (they ended up not doing so in the first gulf war but did so in the second gulf war 10 years later in 2003). A retreating enemy is still a fair target. There is no honor in letting him go for you to fight him again which is why agememnon killed meneleus’ prisoner and diomedes kills Dolon. This is the math of combat.
The Greeks just had the worst possible day of the war and came close to annihilation. Diomedes wants revenge and dead Trojans where he can get them. They could have easily ransomed Dolon and made him promise not to return to the war (which happens to another Trojan). Them saying he will come back to fight them wasn’t strictly true in his case given his cowardice but true as a general principle. They also wouldn’t be swayed by gifts and personal riches of a hostage when every dead Trojan at this critical moment meant a saved Greek. Unlike Dolon, they care more about the good of the army then personal satisfaction (they were on their own mission to raise morale after all). Since the war was very much on, it didn’t make sense to spare Dolon, as he was not noble enough or honorable enough to be given such mercy. He didn’t fight. He betrayed his countrymen without even being tortured. He chose to do the mission out of hubris (hence odysssus comment on the fact he wouldn’t even be able to handle the horses of Achillies if he actually did win them).
The biggest contemptible aspect of Dolon to me personally is how readily he confesses not at all willing to give his life to protect his brothers as modern soldiers me even insurgents we fought, most dedicated men will rather die or suffer horrifically then give up intelligence to the enemy that will harm their comrades. He offers intelligence that will cause harm to his camp to save his wretched skin. This is contemptible to me as a modern person who has fought in western military, but also to Odysseus and Diomedes too and any Ancient Greek who heard this. Some of the most noble deeds in the Iliad are friends dying to protect their friends, or even risking their lives to protect the bodies of their fall end comrades and their armour from being spoils of war to the enemy. This is one of the noble things of war, the selflessness and camaraderie are a big reason why many miss it. Where you and your brothers are fighting for each other (we realized the political reasons given were bullshit and soon it became about getting each other home safely). It’s the best and worst of humanity. This type of selflessness is absent in Dolon who only cares about his father going without his only son. This is also an answer to Hector choosing to fight despite the plea of Andromache to just quit and care about his family y and baby instead of certain death for a doomed cause. But hector has a duty to countrymen and though he knows the cause is doomed and he is fated to die, does so anyways.
Highlights the difference in modern and premodern audiences reading the Iliad as lots of people seem to ask why hector who loves his wife and child so much still commits to the fight in book six. If he did just care about his family then he would have been like Dolon, a man of no honor who does not posses friendship of selflessness. He gives up intelligence that will harm his country without even being tortured, just to spare his life. And lastly he’s dumb to do so without even getting a guarantee for his life. He fails at that too. Odysseus sidesteps his condition and presses him and he continues to spill in a vain hope of mercy if he cooperates. You never count on the mercy of the enemy! You wouldn’t show the same after all.
Do you have any more commentary online somewhere?
You lost me when you compared the Iliad with a BS pc game war against a third world country sanctioned to oblivion.
no