Buehler's Composite Hull and special project announcement. SDP Special Edition.
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- Опубліковано 15 сер 2021
- We've been invited to appear at the Wooden Boat Show August 22, 2021 from 1pm to 3pm EST. In preparation and in order to have something to show, I took the time to build a small scale mock up of our unique composite hull. We go through all the steps required, just on a smaller scale.
This is this is the story of a complete boat owning and boat building novice and his family, constructing a 41’ full displacement trawler yacht in the backyard of their upstate New York home. While I consider myself a fairly advanced amateur woodworker and DIY guy, I’ve never owned a boat before and certainly have never built one either.
The naval architect, George Buehler, designed this boat, from his Diesel Duck line, with the home builder in mind. This design has been licensed for professional builders in China and Turkey, but George’s goal was always to make the large, blue water cruising boat within the reach of the average person.
His commitment to a design that was attainable for the average handy person, resulted in his first book, Buehlers Backyard Boat Building, detailing the process. His designs often include building materials and fasteners available at the big box home improvement stores.
George believed that a robust, comfortable and safe cruising boat could be built with less than ideal, traditional materials. While he acknowledge that less than ideal materials may limit the vessels longevity and resale value, his design would get people safely out on the water while the other guy remained landlocked saving for a design he would never be able to afford to build.
Many traditionalist scoff at his mostly hard chined designs and deviation from traditional methods and materials. However his maverick approach has made the dream of crossing oceans in a home built boat a reality for many around the world. No matter what the “experts” say, his designs have been proven over and over with literally hundreds of examples cruising the worlds oceans today.
Our goal is to be next!
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For attaching the plywood you might want to look for a drywall screw gun with some self sinking deck screws. That will likely give you a better result that nails.
I've used that very tool and I believe your advice is sound and would work very well for attaching the plywood... I've never built a boat, other than a cedar strip canoe, but I'm a carpenter and woodworker with 25 + yrs experience. So take my opinion for what it is, just that, my opinion. Maybe you could set up a "sample" of the hull and test the drywall screw gun, also consider checking out the deck and porch screw guns.
Amazing. Nice story board...only 1200 square feet to go on the full sized boat! Good practice! Thanks for sharing the video.
Side note, If you get your mastic/tar warmer/hotter it will spread way easier!
I tried the Flex Seal on a cracked bird bath. It wasn't long before the product deteriorated into crumbled pieces. Don't think I would trust it. Looks like you have enough to do some testing of your own before making a commitment on your boat. Good luck. We will be watching. Gordon
I bet the Flex Seal was exposed to UV. Makes it all the difference.
When you put that much epoxy on fiberglass, the glass will float to the top and leave a layer of epoxy between the fiberglass and, in this case plywood. It may be very thin, but it still affects the overall strength and weight. That creates weakness and adds weight. It should be squeegeed to remove the excess. Then peel ply can be put on as a last layer. Then there is no need to sand before the last coat of epoxy. Sanding will almost always result in cutting some of the fiberglass fibers and thus loose more strength.
Such light FG scrim isn't going to be part of any significant "strength". The thickness of the Epoxy is the protection against sharp impacts, and insignificant for overall hull "strength"
I personally would not use flex seal I'd used sikaflex first if I were you. Its has much better adhesion capability . Love your storyboard demo for illustration on the composite haul helps explains things perfectly great idea clearly shows all the prep to come up with finished haul of the boat,
Actually Flex Seal is a pretty decent product. I've use it many times and it stays flexible even in direct sunlight. Because it's an "As Seen On TV" product some think it's no good. That's not always true. I would think it would work very well for what you want to do with it. I would use bronze ring shank nails instead of staples. Better holding power.
Use tar it's been around for hundreds of years on boats . It may be difficult to apply but it is tried and tested .
It also seems like a good first control article for a series of test article candidates to leave outdoors in the weather for an extended period of time. You can use them to evaluate the adhesive and corrosion characteristics of different alternatives for fasteners and tar / tar substitutes etc. Doug Jackson over at SV Seeker did similar evaluations of various coatings exposed to salt water conditions in an outdoor jacuzzi for over a year. It could be a very helpful technique for you to use to help inform your decisions. Good Luck.
I have no expereience with Flexseal. I do have a little experience with tar and asphalt emulsion products. You can thin tar with kerosene, heating oils, diesel, and other thin petroleum-based oils. However, this brings the cost up which may make the Flexseal type products more financially feasible. Check with Mc-Master Carr and Grainger. They occasionally have similar products to Flexseal but in bulk at I would think a more reasonable price. Keep up the good work.
Nice demonstration piece Scott. Good practice and a good piece to have in the shop for showing people that come over to help how things go together. As for the Flex-seal, if you can get them to send it to you from the factory at cost I don't know why it wouldn't work. With the plywood covering it, it won't be exposed to UV which will reduce any deterioration. Have a good time at the show.
In his book: Devlin's Boatbuilding: How to Build Any Boat the Stitch-and-Glue Way, when building his larger vessels such as the Sockeye 45, Sam Devlin cold moulds 2 or 3 layers of marine ply & IIRC, drills dozens of holes in the ply to allow air & thickened epoxy to flow through & ensure the bond between layers. He also uses staples to fasten the layers & makes the point that the cured epoxy pillars in the drilled holes act 3 dimensionally like nails. There are inexpensive copies available from Amazon.
Screws are needed to pull the layers together to get a good bond. But with many holes in the layers to allow trapped air/excess epoxy out staples might be a sufficient alternative.
The holes filled with expoxy even provide more mechanical bonding for the epoxy to hold onto. Interesting idea.
But with the thickness of the plywood on this project I think I'd still use screws so I have 100% confidence of a good bond with no gaps. If it were 1/8 or 1/4" ply staples would very likely work fine but looks like he is using 5/8 or 3/4 ply.
Listen and learn
There you go
Long screws hit all ribs
Congrats on the invite! Well done!
Excellent and looks fantastic. Thank you for showing your work.
Thank you. Very educational as I keep following your build.
I loved this video!
Helps me get a much better understanding !!!
Thanks
Well done Scott and love the wooden boat shows and also watch the Art of Boat building. I like the layered mock up. Reminds me of a similar model I made years ago to replicate map contour lines as a training aid.
I feel a lot better after seeing the demo layup. I always wondered about the wood planks moving and becoming detached from the plywood if epoxied together. When you get back from the show set the demo outside in the weather to see how it holds up. Think I'd stick with tar and screws.
I really enjoyed the look into the future of how the hull will be constructed.
⬆️ might be !!!!
Very neat, thanks.
good to see you back, this was very interesting well done. good luck.
That is neat idea to highlight that structure you've chosen.
Great project.👍
Funny, I was just up in your neck of the woods while on vacation, and now your coming down to our area, and just up the river from where we moor our sailboat! I hope the show goes well for you!
Now that is a great visual aid! Wish I could come to the show but the commute from Minnesota would be a killer!
As a fellow woodworker, staples? Applying staples with a gun gives no “drawing” power at the point of impact. If the ply surface is not drawn up tight to the substrate, the staple will not provide any tightening where a screw will do the compression. That would be my concern about going with staples. Nice model, Bro. It will be different, I’m sure you know - when working on the curves of the hull.
Neat project. Regarding Flex-seal, how about doing some simple tests, with tar and any other alternatives as a comparison? Perhaps make up a several small sandwiches of planks and plywood using various flexible sealants and set them side-by-side outside in the weather for a while.
Hi! Love your project!
I question the wisdom of using staples to attach the plywood layers. I’m concerned that staples won’t allow you to conform the plywood to the curvature of the hull , resulting in voids and increasing the danger of delamination between the layers of the hull.
I got the impression that the staples were for the demo only but I was cooking and watching the video over my shoulder and may have it wrong.
He states that much larger staples will be used on the boat, the smaller staples were for demonstration purposes. I can see what Mark Cutshall is saying, but if there's enough attention to detail, this will be a non-issue.
316 stainless wide staples are commonly used in laminated plywood boat building-- have been, successfully, for years. Note that epoxy is typically used between layers. That's what actually holds the layers together. The staples merely keep it all together until the epoxy sets.
@@falco621 Got it Thanks.I will watch again when time permits! CHEERS from Canadian westcoast
@@crustycurmudgeon2182 I agree but the first layer of ply will let go from the flex seal coating, I know from experience that the staples will not hold permanently, the best method would be to either screw the first layer or use rim shank silica bronze nails (my preferred choice) into the planking layer then epoxy and staple the second layer, this will bond the entire structure.
How long does flex seal remain, well, flexible? Will it become brittle over time? Will it delaminate from the white oak? I would;ld stay with a marine product that's been tried and true, with the amount of work you're going through, I wouldn't use something that's not proven for that particular application. BTW, nice job on your progress so far.
An ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure, Mr Scott. Use tar and don't use staples. Your hull is what stands between you and the deep. Always look forward to your next video.
Epoxy likes to be done on a horizontal surface .On the vertical it likes to flow down and you could compensate for that by thickening it.
Cool stuff.
Looking good. Nice to see what will be the finish product.
I’m assuming the plywood will be staggered butt-joints. Any point-loading will be at those joints, so if Buhler recommends screws, I’d use screws... lots of ‘em! I would forever worry about the longevity of Flex-Seal in that application.
I would probably want to play safe, i would put tar or epoxy tar + flex seal below waterline , and above just flex seal.
Hi Scott: I know i'm late to the party but time is on our side. I have a plywood 25' 1961 Chris Craft Cavalier that I've owned for 40 years. I started using SikaFlex before it became popular as a marine product. I found out about it from a concrete contractor who used it due to it's flexibility AND elasticity. I've put in a new full keel, keelson, foredeck, transom, engine stringers and part of the 1/2 marine plywood side and bottom...Everything is still tight and functional. I took a shot at something nobody did b/4. I did the keel etc in 1984 the rest in 84>89. I had nothing to lose. Your case is different. I would talk to the guys at Jamestown. They may have a similar product or give you some good advice. It's your first boat, get some advice at the wooden boat builders in ME. They might know more about your idea and would love to help out.
I like the flex seal idea
i think that the demo board that you made would be a good test of the flex seal. just sit it out in the boat shed and inspect it every month. but personally i would lean toward using tar for the boat. one good source would be Leo at the Tally ho project. also he would be a good person to know others that you could talk to. also maybe acorn to Arabella would be of some help, plus they are on the east coast you might see them at the boat show. hope this helps and i love your project.
As I won't have any chance of attending the show, be a Brit in the UK, this was actually quite interesting to see all the layers going into your boat. Thanks for sharing, Scott and good luck with the show.
Look into Henry's silicone roof coating. Its basically flex seal from a commercial roofing company that has been around a while. Only problem I see is that nothing should bond to it once cured.
Hi Scott I have been watching your build since the first episode and enjoy it immensely. Having watched this demonstration board made me wonder how thick will the hull of the boatwill be when you have put all these layers on? If I wasn't in Australia, I would have loved to go to the wooden boat show. Hope you do a video of it.
Stay healthy and we'll see you soon.
Yeah staples are tempting - quick and easy, but they don’t offer much holding power, particularly under stress. Given these will be holding all your outer layers to the solid timber base I’d be thinking long and hard about not going with what the designer is advising you use, ie screws. The flexible membrane is of course flexible and designed purposefully Not to hold anything. If it was epoxy, fine, but tar or flex seal - not much adhesion there. All the more reason that the right fixing is critical between these two layers.
Possibly a ring shanked nail would do the job. But a smooth staple? I wouldn’t bet money on it long term.
Use a power driver and you won’t need to drill holes for small gauge screws. Just drive em in. Zip, zip zip… Still quick and easy.
I'm not a fan of staples either, but in our shop when we pull apart packing boxes, the staples often break rather than pulling out. Wide crown staples, if they're long enough, can be impossible to pull out. Not sure if they'd pull the plywood down to the substrate, but I bet they would.
I live on the other side of the world but work in construction there are some paste like waterproofing products for below ground tanking that are water based bitumen compounds have you thought of something like that?
I am not a boat expert (or even novice). I am not a materials expert. But it seems you need to focus on what the purpose of what the tar layer is for. You stated it was to allow movement between the plywood and solid wood layers. There is no mention of a seal. Tar on a roof will seal, for awhile but not forever. It is quite brittle when cold. Several comments mention how long tar has been used on boats as the reason it should be used here. But let me ask this, how long has it been used as a layer between plywood and solid wood (as an interior surface) of boat hulls?
I would not veer away from the original design in materials or fasteners. You are going to experience stresses and conditions on the water vastly different from the likes of which occur on land. The problems in a hull such as the type you are creating will occur when water is able to penetrate through one or more of the layers in the composite. It is also going to be more difficult to repair in the event you need to and you’ll want to hold off that scenario as long as possible. Few boats avoid the need for repairs at some point. Experience leads to proper design, you don’t want to find out too late that a substitution has caused a major problem.
Wow nice how you keep your workpiece clean
Test when you get back. Try to separate the layers. Cut through to see cross section. Beat it with a sledge hammer
Flex seal sounds like a good idea but does it have the test of time. I would hate to find out in 3 years it would start to break down in some way
that would waist a lot of your later efforts. Nice display of your layers.
Tar.. not only seals it also is absorbed into the wood and binds it, plus lubricates during movement…. How’s the study been Turn on flex seal and its proper uses in this matter
Flex seal why, because it fails and isn't the product as advertised. Tar is what it is and lasts. There is still tar and pitch on 200+ year old boats dug up.
I think you should stick to the tar (lol)
It is proven in many wooden boats over centuries.
But flex paste just for the demonstration model was a great idea
👍to see the whole story. As for BOB, he does work hard and after being disrespected by Steve from his wooden boat build, I have since distance my viewing of his channel.
👎 to A to A that is!
I assume the existing oak planking and the sides of the boat only bend or are curved in one direction otherwise the plywood will not bend in both directions.
Have you seen the sheet type bitumen membrane that they use for foundation below grade ? I was talking to a guy who installs this stuff on new construction, poured concrete, or the foam block foundation. This is not your grandads tarpaper. It has heat activated adhesive and is supposed to be very effective against water penetration, flexible etc. They have a similar product that the use for roofing but there are modern versions.
I agree with some of the others on the flex seal. It wouldn’t stay on well cleaned and prepped gutters on my house. No way in hell would I use it for a row boat, let an ocean going project like yours.
That might be so, but if the Flex seal will be sandwiched and sealed within the structure, it wouldn't be subject to atmospheric conditions as it was with your gutters so would not fail in the same manner, assuming it stays flexible.
I would staple the sheets in place for location and speed, but then fill with screws.
wishing sv seeker good luck
😃😃😃😃😃
You should all materials your going to use in your mock up.
Yeah I think there's a lot of people saying no to flex seal just because it's a "as seen on tv" product and not because they've used it and had a bad experience, similar with the staples there's a lot of FUD saying to do what the marine designer said to do... I say your boat you do what you want, you've probably got a couple years of building to do before you put her in the water so you can always do a scale test and leave it submerged for a few months to test your theory
You can use Flexseal over screen door fabric and eliminate all the wood. Lol
Hahaha
How are you fastening the 3/4" plywood?
🤔 wood ⬅️ {pun intended} have enjoyed a video of you working on your vessel. Hard work and thought, no doubt. But...
Have you thought of using poly sulfide?
Send a letter to flex seal and tell them what you are doing. you might get a sponsor!!!
Whats the overall thickness of the hull?
Is flex-seal marine graded? Will you be able to get an insurance on your boat ?
The guy on T.V. Sealed a screen door on the waist gun position on the space shuttle with it ! You should spend more time reading stuff on the inter-web ….hahaha….
Now with my real opinion, I was wondering the same thing
I think they built a boat just from flex paste (or was it flex seal?!)
But we don't see the long term performance...
Is there a specific reason slotted head screws were used on the boat build? I’ve noticed they have been used on my wooden boat too. Is it just traditional?
No, and yes
Traditionally the heads are countersunk and covered by bungs. If the fastener ever needs to be removed, it isn’t too difficult to dig any glue out of a slot, but a royal pain to get it out of a phillips, hex, etc. cavity. Slotted screws are not too bad if you use the correct size and properly shaped blade. The main problem is that in common use, too-small blades in poor condition (or even a literal butter knife) are more the rule than the exception.
Thiokol, Scott.
I understand your thinking behind the flex product. However it hasn't been around for long I would question its lifespan buried behind your hull it would be a tragedy if it started to disintegrate in 5 or even 10 years. I really like you videos thanks for Sharing
i say at least 2 layers of cloth or biaxial
yeah, dont use flexseal.
I have used flex seal not impressed must redo regularly...and the staple thing oh my God...attach that plywood like it's the only thing holding you up from being shark 🦈 food....think man
No mask, eye protection dangling from the neck while power sanding. Long term affects from ingesting sawdust, resin fumes etc is already well researched/proven. I like this project though.
what on earth happened to you all
Wear rubber gloves when handling wet epoxy.
You seemed to use way too much epoxy... nothing to be gained from it.
Wear a mask when creating dust.
Nothing worse than becoming sensitized to epoxy!