Superior presentation. In a concise and understandable format, this channel keeps an "old dog" up to date on what is new. Thank you Chris for the wonderful continuing education.
Sorry but no, VanillaOS takes telemetry to the next level compared to plain Ubuntu which it is based on. Look at their privacy policy. They harvest your personal information from your documents as well as user profile on the OS. The distro maintainers also can at will access your filesystem if you are connected to the internet.
A small correction regarding apx ‘running in user mode’. That should have been ‘running under regular user privileges’. Both regular user and root applications run in user mode, as opposed to certain system processes that run in kernel mode. Of course Chris knows all that - this is just to help users new to Linux. Great job once again, Chris.
Very interesting. I do hope that people will not automatically believe that malware can't affect them because although the core is secure, the rest isn't. It was impressive that a basic user could be up and running with apps and not encounter anything technical.
@elfrjz obviously, but that's just like on a phone. But still phones are used for authentication, online banking etc. because they are pretty safe, at least compared to a desktop. Big part of it is that everything is run in a sandbox. So everything gets it's own permission. SELinux is the most used one. That is pretty safe, in fact it's so safe that most servers use it.
I'm liking this distro just for the fact that it asks what software you want to install from the start, which is a lot more convenient than installing all the stuff you don't want/use and having to remove it all later.
it's the right thing to do, we need the common person, especially after copilot+ and crowdstrike fiascos. You are all welcome(no matter what others might say or think)
My experience with immutable distros comes from the Steam Deck. SteamOS is an Arch based immutable OS that switches between a dedicated gaming interface and a KDE desktop mode. One important aspect this has highlighted for me is that you've got to manage the permissions of Flatpaks. They're containerized, but by default you don't get to define their containers in an accessible way. So you need an application like Flatseal to check and modify their permissions. This allows knowledgeable users to increase security by removing unnecessary or questionable permissions, but it also helps fix issues that can arise. For instance, if an application needs to move a file to a different directory, but it doesn't have access to enough of the file system. You can add that permission and repair the issue.
A knowledgeable user can increase the security on any Linux system using its native package management without introducing the additional security risk of a third-party "one size fits all" package management system. It's the same reason why no longer hosting your own "bare metal" servers introduces additional security risk when hosting on a Cloud provider that has not been involved in the solution before. The "war of universal package management" is still being fought anyway between snaps, flatpaks, appimages and nix, and the only people who care about the winner are those trying to turn Linux into Windows and who don't want to put in proper time and effort to learning Linux properly. I've been working with Linux since 1996 (a bit longer with UNIX) and not found to use any of those packaging formats - Gentoo Linux and its package manager Portage are all that I need. A knowledgeable user has knowledge because of taking the time to learn Linux properly, not constantly trying to take "shortcuts" that just add more complexity to the main OS and therefore introduce more software layers containing software bugs and security issues.
PS. For the record, the reason why Linux on Steam Deck is immutable is because the same is true of the OSes on the Playstations and X-Boxes in this world - gamers generally just want to play games and don't care about the underlying OS on their systems (and that's not a criticism, by the way). How many PS5 owners, for example, know what OS their console runs, or even care about it?
@@terrydaktyllus1320 While a console owner doesn’t care about the underlying OS, the choices made by the console manufacturer isn’t for the good of the console owner though but for their own interests. The console owner ultimately gets little choice in what they can do outside of that consoles own ecosystem.
@@richards7909 Yes, but both statements (mine and yours) can exist in the same universe - namely that most gamers don't care about the OS on their consoles and the manufacturers can lock them down to their "heart's content" - in fact, one could argue that each statement drives the other one. So I am not sure what point of mine you have answered here?
This was another great video! I will not use this as my daily driver (yet), but with the state the world is now in, this could change at any time and it is good to know that this distro exists.
I think any operating system that impresses you so much is worth checking (and my download just finished). I like the idea of an immutable system (particularly for my firewall/router facing the internet) -- but how it places out in practice (updated, etc) is going to be the final decision maker. Lovely presentation of complex topics -- always appreciate your videos!
Thanks for a great explanation of Vanilla. It reminds me how many nice advances have been made in Linux since my first introduction many years ago. At that time, Linux was a challenge to use. No longer!
This video was so, so helpful, i begun to take notes lol. All other videos that I've seen on vanilla OS don't mention even the APX thing. Your first 4 min beat all of them.
This seems like a perfect distro for getting family members or the children in your life started in linux. With the low chance of user error and the very low chance of installing malware really does seem ideal. Thank you very much for showcasing this Linux distro. Have a wonderful Sunday. I look forward to you next video. :)
I don’t believe that I’ve heard of “immutable” distros before. I wonder how effective they are. I wouldn’t mind you covering this distro again if its next release is impressive. Looking forward to your next video!
Hi Chris. Very interesting and promising. I am impressed by the amount and quality of documentation, and I like the immutable concept and how it's been applied. However, making errors, sometimes serious ones, is how we learn life's difficult lessons. The way you installed those packages one after the othet made me think it shouldn't be too hard to create a batch installer for such a task. You could select your wish list and set it running and go talk to the ducks or set it to overnight install after you go to bed. I look forward to other updates on this. Have fun
If you're doing this on a PC that has multiple drives already in it - disconnect all the drives other than the one you want this OS on. It's very easy to mistake the wrong drive as the one you want it on - and you'll wipe out everything forever. If you're planning to install any Linux distro onto a drive that you've previously had another OS on, sometimes the installation will stall out on you - with no error messages (or read "Kernel Panic"). If this happens to you, and you really want to use that drive for your new install, you'll have to find a program that allows you to low-level wipe out that drive - in order to get a smooth install process later. Depending on the size of that drive (and the option you pick on the low level wipe/format program - there's more higher and higher levels of intensity of wiping as options), your PC could spend hours or even days wiping out that one drive. You may just want to get a fresh drive for the install instead.
This distro has me interested for sure, even though I know little about managing Flatpaks. A most interesting video that made me think a little more about Linux.
Super interesting. Vanilla is very new, so expect major changes in the tech it is based on (they are moving from Ubuntu-based to Debian Sid (unstable) based in the next release, and it is possible they move from abroot to libostree in the future). Immutability is what seems to be getting the most attention, but I actually think APX is the most interesting part of Vanilla OS. APX's core team includes Luca di Maio of Distrobox and is distro-agnostic. I use Debian Testing as my daily-driver, and am going to install APX on my system to gain some of the benefits of Vanilla while Vanilla matures.
I always love your OS updates, I look forward to them. I also agree with your opinion on the user interface. What that's it, thank you for another great video.
Thank you for IT teacher style of explanations! (This is what my instincts tell me.. like in one movie where character says one policeman knows another...) I liked how the basic things were explained very well and where you find all those menu and other things.
A very informative video about an interesting concept. I wonder whether the team behind Vanilla OS are looking to extend their new idea into ARM and in particularly to the Raspberry Pi 400 and others. Could be interesting in the future should they ever pursue it.
Wow Peter Nice exciting new distro looks like a future daily driver very tempting I like it. Thanks for the time in sharing and intro into learning new stuff. Great channel Peter sure helps a lot for beginners like me.
Sunday afternoon with another excellent video from Chris @ E.C. Vanilla OS does seem quire interesting, I like the idea that the core is isolated from the user & software in containers a plus point for security. There was plenty of software choices that you installed for your workflow (Solitaire anyone)!! Hopefully future updates will add the tweaks that you feel were missing from the distro :)
I used to run long time Fedora 20 and I can see it is straight forward easy to install Vanilla OS. We are in a world nothing is 100% secure. Thank you for awesome video I really appreciate 😊 😉
Thank you Sir for the fantastic video. It was very informative and easy. I felt like I tested the distro myself without wasting much time. Please keep doing this.
Ahoy, Chris. Good title! As you were explaining immutable, FreeBSD boot environments came to mind. Boot environments rest on ZFS snapshots. I’ve encountered in a FreeNAS/TrueNAS context. Once I had to revert an update gone wrong. Easy from the physical console menses. Snapshots also allow recovery from ransomware and other exploits. Good topic for your show writing skills. Excellent presenter!
To be fair, GNOME has _something_ to do with tiny, stone goblins, because, as George Carlin reminds us, acronyms are only abbreviations that spell words - not just any set of letters, such as “NASA,” because that wasn’t already a word. So, ”GNOME” is only an “acronym” because it’s an abbreviation that spells a word, and that word describes tiny, stone goblins. Otherwise-if not for those goblins-it would just be an abbreviation, not an acronym... lol That said, yet another incredible, informative, and well-produced video from a seemingly endless font of amazing work, Chris! It seems you’ve made elegant, inspired, educational content about every relevant, modern, computer-related question there is...
Great video! I am very interested in the concept behind this distro, lets give them more time and hopefully soon we will be able to use it as a daily driver.
I really like the idea of an immutable OS. Especially with the method of verifying the updates the way Vanilla does. What I did not appreciate was that my old Windows CE PDA was "immutable". Of course so were the ROM BIOS elements of the DOS for all the old 8088 PCs. But that was not done in the interests of providing greater security.
Dear John, 👍👍👍 Greetings. Wow... that brings back some fond childhood memories with my first PC - XT8088 compatible. Was recommended to "upgrade" to "IBM" ROMBIOS to get a special version of BASIC in the ROM. So that it can run certain extra programs. I was very new to computing then and not too sure what the upgrade did for me... perhaps allow me to run IBM PC DOS. I still missed those days... 4.77mhz, 256k ram, 2x5.25" floppy, no harddisk, CGA monitor. Was it 9pin 80col dot-matrix printer? No rodent needed 😊. Thanks again & best wishes to you & Chris!
Chrome OS and Steam OS are also immutable Linux operating systems. In the case of Chrome OS, Linux apps and Android apps are run in their own containers under Chrome OS. Similarly, the Chrome web browser pages and web apps run in their own sand boxes to improve security. Immutable operating systems make a lot of sense, especially with regards security and stability, accepting that you sacrifice disk space, as apps are installed self-contained (i.e. complete with all dependent shared libraries). This effectively duplicates some disk space requirements, except in the case of package installers such as Flatpak, where use is made of some less granular shared platform packages. They are also good for people who want to use a low-cost Linux operating system environment and run applications without requiring a more detailed knowledge of the underlying operation system.
Greetings! This is a very relevant concept both in terms of digital security and in terms of support for Linux beginners; one can learn by tinkering without being afraid of making the system crash... Definitely brilliant! An approach that should be democratized on all distros? And why not! Thank you for this excellent presentation. 👍
@@ExplainingComputers I certainly can't generalize and apply the label "crash risk" to all new Linux users, obviously... But as far as I'm concerned, I have a very envious score of having to reinstall Linux distros!
Hey Chris. Another great video. I have one Dell I5 laptop that is dedicated to Linux, and is currently running an older version of Mint. However, lately I have been contemplating doing a fresh install of Mint, I think I will try the Vanilla OS, as I really like the idea of the Immutable OS to provide extra security. Thanks Chris for another well presented and informative video.
@@ExplainingComputers Hey Chris. A few days and much frustration later, I am leaning towards reinstalling Mint. Somehow, I missed the initial LibreOffice option, and now can't figure out how to install it, or Firefox. I seem to be going in circles trying to navigate this very different operating system. Walking away for now.......
suits my needs i think, i may have to try it, funny, your post install program list is very similar to mine, i would include Thunderbird, love the videos
Thank you very much. A new, more secure, distribution is something very interesting. Maybe, it may make sense to run a few tests with it in order to see how much more secure it really is.
I use openSUSE with Gnome desktop environment. Gnome is simply super and functional. No unnecessary shinies and useless functions, just a clean desktop ready to work with. Gnome is just fantastic.
I've actually used immutable OSes for over a decade without realizing what they are. Lots of commercial appliances use the same approach. Off the top of my head, managed Ethernet switches work in a similar fashion for updates. (There isn't often any check the update applied successfully, but if you have console access, it's easy enough to go back to the previous version.) I've worked with some video processing equipment that does this as well. Barring major hardware failure, it seems like this is the best way to maintain overall uptime, even if it does increase the necessity for reboots. I would love to see a microkernel architecture become popular, so we can have all of the continuous uptime, but still keep our platform up to date. Coupled with something like Intel's canceled Optane memory in place of DRAM, one could have a computer keep its uptime _through a power outage._ Good luck using it though. 😅👍
I will say I am curious about the possibilities of an immutable operating system. I was not sure how it would work for me personally, but after this presentation, it has really demonstrated that I had a few ideas about immutable distros that were either out of date or just incorrect. I don't know that I would recommend using it on something like a cheap laptop with a 64 GB eMMC because of that need for a second 20 GB root partition, but it has clearly demonstrated what ever negative impression I had about an immutable distro is just plain wrong. Thank you for the great video!
To answer your question, yes, this is very intriguing to me. I'm working on a security system for my 1966 Mustang - they are trivially easy to steal - and I have been worried about all the holes Windows has. My target customer is a old car guy, not an IT guy, and I don't want them to get their cars hacked by some zero-day vulnerability in Windows. Updating Vanilla OS looks way easier than Windows Update too with the added benefit that it would be nearly impossible to brick the computer. I'm a 30+ year Windows guy, but this is making me think seriously about learning Linux, especially since their documentation looks to be a lot less cryptic. Thanks for doing this video. I never would have heard about Vanilla OS otherwise. Oh, and have you gotten notification on your Hackboard 2 shipping yet?
Thanks for this. I have not got a Hackboard 2 shipping notification yet, but I had another "update" e-mail this week. I am doubting that I will ever see a board -- and it will be very different to what we ordered anyway!
Hello Chris We could discuss a lot about the real level of security brought by an immutable OS, because there are always security issues. And without updates, bugs and security aren't corrected. IT security is a multi-faceted issue and, in my mind, Vanilla OS adressed only few of them. Vanilla OS seems doesn't propose partition encryption. And what about network security (encrypted protocols, firewall, vpn, etc.) ? What about secure software repositories which provide only softwares with a certified origin. What about usage of SELinux or AppArmor ? What about Vanilla OS compatibility with a proprietary antivirus suite ? What about password management ? More generally and beyond security concerns, it could be appreciable to test the file manager and it's compatibility with NFS4 and SMB2.* & 3 shares. Some important softwares still have some problem with remote file servers. And also the printing system with local and remote printers. A end user Linux distro must offer the best quality of service as possible, security and usability ahead. Thanks a lot for your videos which are always very helpful and informative. 👍
Aaaah now I understand what an immutable system is. Perfectly explained, thank you. If they do get around to having a dock function think I'd definitely install as my daily driver.
very interesting indeed, would be great as a daily driver but i think chris is right still need a few improvements so i guess we'll see how it goes... great video. loved it.
Thank you Chris.This looks like being my next distro to try. I began a few years ago with SUSE before it became 'open' but a windows update screwed up the dual boot and I lost everything. An OS that resists corruption is right up my street.
Might want to wait a bit. They just announced they are switching to a Debian base instead of Ubuntu. Of course, you can try it out in the current Ubuntu version but I wouldn't get cozy with it since they are switching. I'm excited about their switch to Debian.
This looks very interesting. I would like Chris to run this for a while and report back. My experience of installing a new OS has had problems. Let's see how it goes.
First time I heard of immutable distros was when the Steam Deck was about to come out. I have been very interested in a good, well supported immutable Linux distro since then, and am still hoping for SteamOS to become officially available. I have not used Linux that long, but at least a few times I made some sort of mistake that broke everything and I had to spend the rest of the day trying to figure out a fix without losing all my data. I dislike Windows enough to deal with Linux's quirks, but that is not true for most people. I wish more distros made it the default to be immutable, and if you really want full control you can toggle it off. Design your distro for the average Joe, but leave some toggles in advanced settings or something for the folks that get all sweaty for total OS control.
Thank you for a wonderful introduction to immutable OSes in Vanilla OS. I do agree with you about G(uh)NOME. In an effort to keep things "clean" options are either hidden or not there. Needing to install another program, Tweaks and now also Extensions to get the OS setup for what the general user is used to is a bit annoying. This is why I prefer a different DE (desktop environment) such as KDE or Cinnamon. Luckily, Linux distros offer the options. Be well my friend!
The developers try to imitate Microsoft Windows too well. If users are used to certain features, those should be removed or at least made invisible in the next update.
@@sbc_soc_tinkerer That is what I ask myself. I agreed with you "options are either hidden or not there" That is what Microsoft does with each Windows update.
Fantastic video! More fantastic content. Thankyou very much. Chris would you consider for future Linux videos or a special stand alone video looking at using the steam gaming platform and the steam proton for running Windows only steam games on Linux. Many thanks for your amazing channels
A very accessible discussion of what would ordinarily be a complex and confusing topic, thanks Chris. It's a nit-picky point (and unrelated to the video), but the one thing that irks me is the name 'VanillaOS.' the reason is that - in colloquial English, anyway - 'vanilla' as an adjective can mean 'plain' or 'unremarkable.' I had to listen very carefully to try and discern if reference was being made to "Vanilla Gnome" as in a specific configuration of the Gnome desktop for this OS, or "vanilla Gnome" as in a base-level configuration that you might get if you built and installed Gnome by yourself without any customization. I think if I were trying to emphasize the security or immutability aspects of this OS, I might have gone with a word that conventionally conveys solidity and resistance-to-change. IronOS? nah, iron rusts. ResilientOS? sounds like it bends before it breaks. SteelOS? Zzzz... I might need a focus group.
Just found this video, as I am looking for a new distro to replace Mint 21.2, which seems to be having a real problem just freezing randomly on my 10+ year old PC, a 64-bit, Phenom2 with 8G of RAM. Win-10 runs on it just fine, as do other distros I have tried lately. I have 3 switchable SSDs, with one still limping along with Mint 21.2, one with Win-10, and a third empty one, giving me one "bare Metal", (if you can even say that about a SSD), drive to experiment with. I'd really like to find a Linux distro that either incorporates TOR functionality from the start, or will allow it without hours slogging thru the Terminal screen. Anyway, great video, as always. Thanks. Will be giving Vanilla a try.
I've been using Silverblue, encrypted, on my laptops that I take out of the house for years now. You, know, that little bit of extra security, never had any issues with it. ( Steam OS which is used on the Steam Deck is also immutable. Microsoft has a Linux immutable system called CBL-Mariner which it uses as a part of Azure )
Good morning, Sir! From Judson & Buddy! - In Ohio! TheNHJACK "Stole my Thunder" - So to Speak"! I'll just add to his comments by pointing out that I'm sure you have been such a good teacher for so long now... That you really DO make what you do look really easy! That's a compliment, BTW - I'm sure its NOT! Cheers! - Judson & Buddy!! 🙂
Thanks for this one, very interesting Distro. The main strike against it for me personally is the use of GNOME, I'm afraid I simply do not like it. If Vanilla OS offered MATE or Cinnamon as alternatives I would definitely give it a try.
Interesting. Maybe there will be more DE's in the future. I've tried it, but don't see it as myu daily driver for the reasons you mention It's imparative that they do at a minimum a Mate version and better yet a Plasma version. I used Mate for a lonmg time and like it, but I like Plasma better. The present DE on Vanilla sucks for me. TGhere are just too many steps required for simple tasks.
I'm in the same boat. Even when I started using Linux since 20 years (RedHat 6.2) and after trying a few times, I just can't stand the modern gnome. The gnome flashback was a nice attempt but since I use Mate or Cinnamon I feel as the good old days using Linux: productive and solid. Even xfce or lxde, or of course KDE but definitely the modern gnome push me away automatically.
Thanks! It reminded me of Z88s which I still use occasionally. With those the operating system, and indeed basic applications too, are in ROM. Makes it very fast.
If I am not mistaken, Google's Chrome OS which is what ships with Chromebooks is an immutable operating system that works very similar to this, if not identical to this, with the added benefit of using hardware-level security measures to encrypts the data on Chromebooks using tamper-resistant hardware. That is why I consider Chrome OS to be much more secure than Windoes or MAC OS.
I'm not sure it was considered immutable, but if I remember correctly, Amiga users with hard drives could install the workbench (most of the OS) in a small read-only partition. There were various paths for added mutable components such as libraries and drivers, but the core OS could remain untouchable.
Superior presentation. In a concise and understandable format, this channel keeps an "old dog" up to date on what is new. Thank you Chris for the wonderful continuing education.
Heh! ROM is not a BAD thing ;-)
Hear hear! Seconded!
Yeah I like this classy old shool, intellectual type of presentation.
im not an "old dog" but i still prefer this style of video! Love it!
Sorry but no, VanillaOS takes telemetry to the next level compared to plain Ubuntu which it is based on. Look at their privacy policy. They harvest your personal information from your documents as well as user profile on the OS. The distro maintainers also can at will access your filesystem if you are connected to the internet.
I have been watching you for a looooong time, why are you not getting old??
Oh, I am getting old! :) Thanks for watching.
A small correction regarding apx ‘running in user mode’. That should have been ‘running under regular user privileges’. Both regular user and root applications run in user mode, as opposed to certain system processes that run in kernel mode. Of course Chris knows all that - this is just to help users new to Linux. Great job once again, Chris.
Thanks for these great videos, much appreciated
Thanks for this, most appreciated.
Very interesting. I do hope that people will not automatically believe that malware can't affect them because although the core is secure, the rest isn't. It was impressive that a basic user could be up and running with apps and not encounter anything technical.
I mean it's running everything in a sandbox. So it's pretty secure like a phone
@@anonymunsichtbar3715 But it's not immutable.
@@anonymunsichtbar3715 yep, you got it
@elfrjz obviously, but that's just like on a phone. But still phones are used for authentication, online banking etc. because they are pretty safe, at least compared to a desktop. Big part of it is that everything is run in a sandbox. So everything gets it's own permission. SELinux is the most used one. That is pretty safe, in fact it's so safe that most servers use it.
Late to the party. Increased security never means invulnerability. Not sure the English language is capable of transferring specific meaning.
I'm liking this distro just for the fact that it asks what software you want to install from the start, which is a lot more convenient than installing all the stuff you don't want/use and having to remove it all later.
Sunday evenings wouldn't be the same without an EC video. Excellent review, as always, Chris. Cheers!
finally, someone that talks to the common person, without all the technicalities of the terminal.
it's the right thing to do, we need the common person, especially after copilot+ and crowdstrike fiascos. You are all welcome(no matter what others might say or think)
My experience with immutable distros comes from the Steam Deck. SteamOS is an Arch based immutable OS that switches between a dedicated gaming interface and a KDE desktop mode.
One important aspect this has highlighted for me is that you've got to manage the permissions of Flatpaks. They're containerized, but by default you don't get to define their containers in an accessible way. So you need an application like Flatseal to check and modify their permissions.
This allows knowledgeable users to increase security by removing unnecessary or questionable permissions, but it also helps fix issues that can arise. For instance, if an application needs to move a file to a different directory, but it doesn't have access to enough of the file system. You can add that permission and repair the issue.
rm KDE have this settings
A knowledgeable user can increase the security on any Linux system using its native package management without introducing the additional security risk of a third-party "one size fits all" package management system. It's the same reason why no longer hosting your own "bare metal" servers introduces additional security risk when hosting on a Cloud provider that has not been involved in the solution before.
The "war of universal package management" is still being fought anyway between snaps, flatpaks, appimages and nix, and the only people who care about the winner are those trying to turn Linux into Windows and who don't want to put in proper time and effort to learning Linux properly.
I've been working with Linux since 1996 (a bit longer with UNIX) and not found to use any of those packaging formats - Gentoo Linux and its package manager Portage are all that I need.
A knowledgeable user has knowledge because of taking the time to learn Linux properly, not constantly trying to take "shortcuts" that just add more complexity to the main OS and therefore introduce more software layers containing software bugs and security issues.
PS. For the record, the reason why Linux on Steam Deck is immutable is because the same is true of the OSes on the Playstations and X-Boxes in this world - gamers generally just want to play games and don't care about the underlying OS on their systems (and that's not a criticism, by the way).
How many PS5 owners, for example, know what OS their console runs, or even care about it?
@@terrydaktyllus1320 While a console owner doesn’t care about the underlying OS, the choices made by the console manufacturer isn’t for the good of the console owner though but for their own interests. The console owner ultimately gets little choice in what they can do outside of that consoles own ecosystem.
@@richards7909 Yes, but both statements (mine and yours) can exist in the same universe - namely that most gamers don't care about the OS on their consoles and the manufacturers can lock them down to their "heart's content" - in fact, one could argue that each statement drives the other one.
So I am not sure what point of mine you have answered here?
As always, very well presented and definitely a big help in refreshing and keeping up to date on what's going on.
Thank you Chris.
I Really enjoyed this video. Thanks Chris! I'm gonna try out Vanilla too, it looks great!
Thanks for your support. Good luck testing out Vanilla OS.
This was another great video! I will not use this as my daily driver (yet), but with the state the world is now in, this could change at any time and it is good to know that this distro exists.
I'm so grateful for this channel. Thank you for turning me on to so many cool things over the years, Chris.
I think any operating system that impresses you so much is worth checking (and my download just finished). I like the idea of an immutable system (particularly for my firewall/router facing the internet) -- but how it places out in practice (updated, etc) is going to be the final decision maker. Lovely presentation of complex topics -- always appreciate your videos!
If you want it for a router, etc... search somewhere else, vanilla OS is GUI oriented and would make things more difficult than needed
Thanks for a great explanation of Vanilla. It reminds me how many nice advances have been made in Linux since my first introduction many years ago. At that time, Linux was a challenge to use. No longer!
I love your intro, it looks so early 2010's. It's great. Never change it.
Thanks for the push! I'll have to check out Vanilla and other Immutable OSs mentioned here. Good stuff, man!
This video was so, so helpful, i begun to take notes lol.
All other videos that I've seen on vanilla OS don't mention even the APX thing. Your first 4 min beat all of them.
This seems like a perfect distro for getting family members or the children in your life started in linux. With the low chance of user error and the very low chance of installing malware really does seem ideal. Thank you very much for showcasing this Linux distro. Have a wonderful Sunday. I look forward to you next video. :)
Maybe, but I find the DE to be combersum and confusing.
The Gnome desktop is ennoying as hell though.
Ah finally my favorite day is there Explaining Computers day! Every Sunday Is my favorite day
Ditto!
Thanks!
Thanks for this, most appreciated.
Happiest of Sundays to everyone. Great video Christopher as per usual. 👏
I don’t believe that I’ve heard of “immutable” distros before. I wonder how effective they are. I wouldn’t mind you covering this distro again if its next release is impressive. Looking forward to your next video!
Technically Android is a Linux distro and it is immutable. Complete with an (optional) A/B partition scheme since Android 7.
@@rexsceleratorum1632 It will be interesting to see if immutable distributions continue to become more popular.
The video is superb, I was impressed how those apps installed so fast.
Great job Chris. Now I want to have some Vanilla ice cream. :-)
:)
Let me join you!
Hi Chris. Very interesting and promising. I am impressed by the amount and quality of documentation, and I like the immutable concept and how it's been applied. However, making errors, sometimes serious ones, is how we learn life's difficult lessons. The way you installed those packages one after the othet made me think it shouldn't be too hard to create a batch installer for such a task. You could select your wish list and set it running and go talk to the ducks or set it to overnight install after you go to bed. I look forward to other updates on this. Have fun
Not hard at all, just make a bash script with a bunch of apx install -y [appname]
If you're doing this on a PC that has multiple drives already in it - disconnect all the drives other than the one you want this OS on.
It's very easy to mistake the wrong drive as the one you want it on - and you'll wipe out everything forever.
If you're planning to install any Linux distro onto a drive that you've previously had another OS on, sometimes the installation will stall out on you - with no error messages (or read "Kernel Panic").
If this happens to you, and you really want to use that drive for your new install, you'll have to find a program that allows you to low-level wipe out that drive - in order to get a smooth install process later. Depending on the size of that drive (and the option you pick on the low level wipe/format program - there's more higher and higher levels of intensity of wiping as options), your PC could spend hours or even days wiping out that one drive. You may just want to get a fresh drive for the install instead.
I almost always learn something new from you Chris - an "immutable" OS was a new one for me!
Greetings Chris.
This distro has me interested for sure, even though I know little about managing Flatpaks. A most interesting video that made me think a little more about Linux.
Super interesting. Vanilla is very new, so expect major changes in the tech it is based on (they are moving from Ubuntu-based to Debian Sid (unstable) based in the next release, and it is possible they move from abroot to libostree in the future). Immutability is what seems to be getting the most attention, but I actually think APX is the most interesting part of Vanilla OS. APX's core team includes Luca di Maio of Distrobox and is distro-agnostic. I use Debian Testing as my daily-driver, and am going to install APX on my system to gain some of the benefits of Vanilla while Vanilla matures.
debian unstable is more stable than ubuntu lts now fight me
I always love your OS updates, I look forward to them.
I also agree with your opinion on the user interface. What that's it, thank you for another great video.
always loved your videos impressed and improved so much over the years! hope youre doing well!
Thank you for IT teacher style of explanations! (This is what my instincts tell me.. like in one movie where character says one policeman knows another...) I liked how the basic things were explained very well and where you find all those menu and other things.
A very informative video about an interesting concept. I wonder whether the team behind Vanilla OS are looking to extend their new idea into ARM and in particularly to the Raspberry Pi 400 and others. Could be interesting in the future should they ever pursue it.
Over a year ago, I began using an immutable distro - NixOS. It has performed flawlessly.
Wow Peter Nice exciting new distro looks like a future daily driver very tempting I like it. Thanks for the time in sharing and intro into learning new stuff. Great channel Peter
sure helps a lot for beginners like me.
Another fabulous presentation and explanation from Chris! Barnatt is the best! Thank you :)
Sunday afternoon with another excellent video from Chris @ E.C. Vanilla OS does seem quire interesting, I like the idea that the core is isolated from the user & software in containers a plus point for security. There was plenty of software choices that you installed for your workflow (Solitaire anyone)!! Hopefully future updates will add the tweaks that you feel were missing from the distro :)
Thanks Christopher, I have to say you have a keen eye for really useful technology. I may add some other to the list: CarbonOS, Fedora Kinoite
I used to run long time Fedora 20 and I can see it is straight forward easy to install Vanilla OS. We are in a world nothing is 100% secure.
Thank you for awesome video I really appreciate 😊 😉
Thank you Sir for the fantastic video. It was very informative and easy. I felt like I tested the distro myself without wasting much time. Please keep doing this.
Ahoy, Chris. Good title! As you were explaining immutable, FreeBSD boot environments came to mind. Boot environments rest on ZFS snapshots. I’ve encountered in a FreeNAS/TrueNAS context. Once I had to revert an update gone wrong. Easy from the physical console menses. Snapshots also allow recovery from ransomware and other exploits. Good topic for your show writing skills. Excellent presenter!
To be fair, GNOME has _something_ to do with tiny, stone goblins, because, as George Carlin reminds us, acronyms are only abbreviations that spell words - not just any set of letters, such as “NASA,” because that wasn’t already a word. So, ”GNOME” is only an “acronym” because it’s an abbreviation that spells a word, and that word describes tiny, stone goblins. Otherwise-if not for those goblins-it would just be an abbreviation, not an acronym... lol
That said, yet another incredible, informative, and well-produced video from a seemingly endless font of amazing work, Chris! It seems you’ve made elegant, inspired, educational content about every relevant, modern, computer-related question there is...
:)
Great video! I am very interested in the concept behind this distro, lets give them more time and hopefully soon we will be able to use it as a daily driver.
Great VIdeo Chris!!! As always, you do a great job explaining things ib very understandable detail. Thanks again for all that you do!!!
Yes on the immutable question you posed at the end.
no tiny stone goblins. I have been so locked into Linux Mint 21.1 that I wouldn't want to change to any other distro. Good video .
I really like the idea of an immutable OS. Especially with the method of verifying the updates the way Vanilla does.
What I did not appreciate was that my old Windows CE PDA was "immutable". Of course so were the ROM BIOS elements of the DOS for all the old 8088 PCs. But that was not done in the interests of providing greater security.
Dear John, 👍👍👍
Greetings.
Wow... that brings back some fond childhood memories with my first PC - XT8088 compatible. Was recommended to "upgrade" to "IBM" ROMBIOS to get a special version of BASIC in the ROM. So that it can run certain extra programs. I was very new to computing then and not too sure what the upgrade did for me... perhaps allow me to run IBM PC DOS.
I still missed those days... 4.77mhz, 256k ram, 2x5.25" floppy, no harddisk, CGA monitor. Was it 9pin 80col dot-matrix printer? No rodent needed 😊.
Thanks again & best wishes to you & Chris!
Informative and very interesting video as always Chris, always enjoy your channel. Great work 🙂
Chrome OS and Steam OS are also immutable Linux operating systems. In the case of Chrome OS, Linux apps and Android apps are run in their own containers under Chrome OS. Similarly, the Chrome web browser pages and web apps run in their own sand boxes to improve security. Immutable operating systems make a lot of sense, especially with regards security and stability, accepting that you sacrifice disk space, as apps are installed self-contained (i.e. complete with all dependent shared libraries). This effectively duplicates some disk space requirements, except in the case of package installers such as Flatpak, where use is made of some less granular shared platform packages. They are also good for people who want to use a low-cost Linux operating system environment and run applications without requiring a more detailed knowledge of the underlying operation system.
Chrome OS (Flex) is indeed excellent. :)
This was great video Chris; thanks again for amazing content!
Greetings! This is a very relevant concept both in terms of digital security and in terms of support for Linux beginners; one can learn by tinkering without being afraid of making the system crash... Definitely brilliant! An approach that should be democratized on all distros? And why not! Thank you for this excellent presentation. 👍
I did not consider beginners being protected from causing problems -- a very good point. :)
@@ExplainingComputers I certainly can't generalize and apply the label "crash risk" to all new Linux users, obviously... But as far as I'm concerned, I have a very envious score of having to reinstall Linux distros!
Hey Chris. Another great video. I have one Dell I5 laptop that is dedicated to Linux, and is currently running an older version of Mint. However, lately I have been contemplating doing a fresh install of Mint, I think I will try the Vanilla OS, as I really like the idea of the Immutable OS to provide extra security. Thanks Chris for another well presented and informative video.
Good luck with your install. :)
@@ExplainingComputers Hey Chris. A few days and much frustration later, I am leaning towards reinstalling Mint. Somehow, I missed the initial LibreOffice option, and now can't figure out how to install it, or Firefox. I seem to be going in circles trying to navigate this very different operating system. Walking away for now.......
suits my needs i think, i may have to try it, funny, your post install program list is very similar to mine, i would include Thunderbird, love the videos
Thank you very much. A new, more secure, distribution is something very interesting.
Maybe, it may make sense to run a few tests with it in order to see how much more secure it really is.
A nice video. I would have wanted to see installation of appimages and Arch packages just to see how well that would function.
I use openSUSE with Gnome desktop environment. Gnome is simply super and functional. No unnecessary shinies and useless functions, just a clean desktop ready to work with. Gnome is just fantastic.
xfce is better tho
I've actually used immutable OSes for over a decade without realizing what they are. Lots of commercial appliances use the same approach. Off the top of my head, managed Ethernet switches work in a similar fashion for updates. (There isn't often any check the update applied successfully, but if you have console access, it's easy enough to go back to the previous version.) I've worked with some video processing equipment that does this as well.
Barring major hardware failure, it seems like this is the best way to maintain overall uptime, even if it does increase the necessity for reboots. I would love to see a microkernel architecture become popular, so we can have all of the continuous uptime, but still keep our platform up to date. Coupled with something like Intel's canceled Optane memory in place of DRAM, one could have a computer keep its uptime _through a power outage._ Good luck using it though. 😅👍
thank you. very interesting! i've never heard of an immutable OS before.
Never failed to entertain me, thank you Chris 😊
You are somehow both the least and most coolest nerd on the internet. Hats off to you, good sir.
Blessed Sunday all!
And to you
Greetings!
fk religion 🐻
Great video Chris my try Vanilla os on some new incoming hardware namely a Pinetab2 when it shows up!
I will say I am curious about the possibilities of an immutable operating system. I was not sure how it would work for me personally, but after this presentation, it has really demonstrated that I had a few ideas about immutable distros that were either out of date or just incorrect. I don't know that I would recommend using it on something like a cheap laptop with a 64 GB eMMC because of that need for a second 20 GB root partition, but it has clearly demonstrated what ever negative impression I had about an immutable distro is just plain wrong. Thank you for the great video!
To answer your question, yes, this is very intriguing to me. I'm working on a security system for my 1966 Mustang - they are trivially easy to steal - and I have been worried about all the holes Windows has. My target customer is a old car guy, not an IT guy, and I don't want them to get their cars hacked by some zero-day vulnerability in Windows. Updating Vanilla OS looks way easier than Windows Update too with the added benefit that it would be nearly impossible to brick the computer. I'm a 30+ year Windows guy, but this is making me think seriously about learning Linux, especially since their documentation looks to be a lot less cryptic. Thanks for doing this video. I never would have heard about Vanilla OS otherwise.
Oh, and have you gotten notification on your Hackboard 2 shipping yet?
Thanks for this. I have not got a Hackboard 2 shipping notification yet, but I had another "update" e-mail this week. I am doubting that I will ever see a board -- and it will be very different to what we ordered anyway!
Hello Chris
We could discuss a lot about the real level of security brought by an immutable OS, because there are always security issues. And without updates, bugs and security aren't corrected. IT security is a multi-faceted issue and, in my mind, Vanilla OS adressed only few of them.
Vanilla OS seems doesn't propose partition encryption. And what about network security (encrypted protocols, firewall, vpn, etc.) ? What about secure software repositories which provide only softwares with a certified origin. What about usage of SELinux or AppArmor ? What about Vanilla OS compatibility with a proprietary antivirus suite ? What about password management ?
More generally and beyond security concerns, it could be appreciable to test the file manager and it's compatibility with NFS4 and SMB2.* & 3 shares. Some important softwares still have some problem with remote file servers. And also the printing system with local and remote printers.
A end user Linux distro must offer the best quality of service as possible, security and usability ahead.
Thanks a lot for your videos which are always very helpful and informative. 👍
Aaaah now I understand what an immutable system is. Perfectly explained, thank you. If they do get around to having a dock function think I'd definitely install as my daily driver.
you have to install dash to dock gnome extension and you are done
very interesting indeed, would be great as a daily driver but i think chris is right still need a few improvements so i guess we'll see how it goes... great video. loved it.
Thank you Chris.This looks like being my next distro to try. I began a few years ago with SUSE before it became 'open' but a windows update screwed up the dual boot and I lost everything. An OS that resists corruption is right up my street.
Might want to wait a bit. They just announced they are switching to a Debian base instead of Ubuntu. Of course, you can try it out in the current Ubuntu version but I wouldn't get cozy with it since they are switching. I'm excited about their switch to Debian.
VERY NICE REVIEW AS ALWAYS LOVELY JUBBLY!!
Useful information as always!
I find it useful to always check dark mode... often it doesn't work right, and for me that's a no-go.
This looks very interesting. I would like Chris to run this for a while and report back. My experience of installing a new OS has had problems. Let's see how it goes.
In this video you were more fun than usual. :)
I did enjoy making this video! :)
First time I heard of immutable distros was when the Steam Deck was about to come out. I have been very interested in a good, well supported immutable Linux distro since then, and am still hoping for SteamOS to become officially available.
I have not used Linux that long, but at least a few times I made some sort of mistake that broke everything and I had to spend the rest of the day trying to figure out a fix without losing all my data. I dislike Windows enough to deal with Linux's quirks, but that is not true for most people. I wish more distros made it the default to be immutable, and if you really want full control you can toggle it off. Design your distro for the average Joe, but leave some toggles in advanced settings or something for the folks that get all sweaty for total OS control.
Vanilla OS looks beautiful and great video btw
Thank you for a wonderful introduction to immutable OSes in Vanilla OS. I do agree with you about G(uh)NOME. In an effort to keep things "clean" options are either hidden or not there. Needing to install another program, Tweaks and now also Extensions to get the OS setup for what the general user is used to is a bit annoying. This is why I prefer a different DE (desktop environment) such as KDE or Cinnamon. Luckily, Linux distros offer the options. Be well my friend!
The developers try to imitate Microsoft Windows too well. If users are used to certain features, those should be removed or at least made invisible in the next update.
@@jlinkels why?
@@sbc_soc_tinkerer That is what I ask myself. I agreed with you "options are either hidden or not there" That is what Microsoft does with each Windows update.
Nice OS! 😊 I could see myself using it as a daily driver. I really like the Bullet proof concept of it as well.
Gràcies!
Thanks for your support, most appreciated. :)
V interesting - first I've heard of immutable operating systems.
This is fascinating thanks for sharing. Will be giving it a try someday soon.
Fantastic video! More fantastic content. Thankyou very much.
Chris would you consider for future Linux videos or a special stand alone video looking at using the steam gaming platform and the steam proton for running Windows only steam games on Linux.
Many thanks for your amazing channels
I may try it as a VM at first. My attachment to Linus Mint and Fedora is strong. We’ll see. Thank you for the video. Cheers!
Great video Chris! Thank you for sharing it with us!😎💖👍JP
No problem 👍
@@ExplainingComputers 😎
I'm feeling very immutable after this great vid! :)
Absolutely superb video,thank you chris..I am so tempted to give this a whirl on my real drive..
Very nice Chris. Thanks for another great video.🙂👍
A very accessible discussion of what would ordinarily be a complex and confusing topic, thanks Chris.
It's a nit-picky point (and unrelated to the video), but the one thing that irks me is the name 'VanillaOS.' the reason is that - in colloquial English, anyway - 'vanilla' as an adjective can mean 'plain' or 'unremarkable.' I had to listen very carefully to try and discern if reference was being made to "Vanilla Gnome" as in a specific configuration of the Gnome desktop for this OS, or "vanilla Gnome" as in a base-level configuration that you might get if you built and installed Gnome by yourself without any customization.
I think if I were trying to emphasize the security or immutability aspects of this OS, I might have gone with a word that conventionally conveys solidity and resistance-to-change. IronOS? nah, iron rusts. ResilientOS? sounds like it bends before it breaks. SteelOS? Zzzz... I might need a focus group.
Great video Chris!!
Looks very interesting, I just might give that a go myself. Thanks for sharing.
Very interesting. Certainly interested in an immutable OS. Thanks v much
Wonderful video as always!
Thanks for talking about Vanilla OS!
It is a cool distro.
Just found this video, as I am looking for a new distro to replace Mint 21.2, which seems to be having a real problem just freezing randomly on my 10+ year old PC, a 64-bit, Phenom2 with 8G of RAM. Win-10 runs on it just fine, as do other distros I have tried lately. I have 3 switchable SSDs, with one still limping along with Mint 21.2, one with Win-10, and a third empty one, giving me one "bare Metal", (if you can even say that about a SSD), drive to experiment with. I'd really like to find a Linux distro that either incorporates TOR functionality from the start, or will allow it without hours slogging thru the Terminal screen. Anyway, great video, as always. Thanks. Will be giving Vanilla a try.
I've been using Silverblue, encrypted, on my laptops that I take out of the house for years now. You, know, that little bit of extra security, never had any issues with it. ( Steam OS which is used on the Steam Deck is also immutable. Microsoft has a Linux immutable system called CBL-Mariner which it uses as a part of Azure )
Good morning, Sir! From Judson & Buddy! - In Ohio! TheNHJACK "Stole my Thunder" - So to Speak"!
I'll just add to his comments by pointing out that I'm sure you have been such a good teacher for so long now... That you really DO make what you do look really easy! That's a compliment, BTW - I'm sure its NOT!
Cheers! - Judson & Buddy!! 🙂
Greetings both. :)
Thanks for this one, very interesting Distro. The main strike against it for me personally is the use of GNOME, I'm afraid I simply do not like it. If Vanilla OS offered MATE or Cinnamon as alternatives I would definitely give it a try.
Interesting. Maybe there will be more DE's in the future. I've tried it, but don't see it as myu daily driver for the reasons you mention It's imparative that they do at a minimum a Mate version and better yet a Plasma version. I used Mate for a lonmg time and like it, but I like Plasma better. The present DE on Vanilla sucks for me. TGhere are just too many steps required for simple tasks.
I'm in the same boat. Even when I started using Linux since 20 years (RedHat 6.2) and after trying a few times, I just can't stand the modern gnome. The gnome flashback was a nice attempt but since I use Mate or Cinnamon I feel as the good old days using Linux: productive and solid. Even xfce or lxde, or of course KDE but definitely the modern gnome push me away automatically.
Thanks! It reminded me of Z88s which I still use occasionally. With those the operating system, and indeed basic applications too, are in ROM. Makes it very fast.
Wow! I remember those machines. :)
If I am not mistaken, Google's Chrome OS which is what ships with Chromebooks is an immutable operating system that works very similar to this, if not identical to this, with the added benefit of using hardware-level security measures to encrypts the data on Chromebooks using tamper-resistant hardware.
That is why I consider Chrome OS to be much more secure than Windoes or MAC OS.
I'm not sure it was considered immutable, but if I remember correctly, Amiga users with hard drives could install the workbench (most of the OS) in a small read-only partition. There were various paths for added mutable components such as libraries and drivers, but the core OS could remain untouchable.
Looks great! I'll have to give it a try.