Healthy balance. Definitely agree with this. I did a lactate threshold test and ran by heart rate for a while. But for the past couple of years, I've been doing my easy runs by RPE. I'm not thinking of a numeric value, but rather an effort that I could maintain for hours. I've found running by RPE to be so much more enjoyable and less stressful. For the harder runs, I use power (Stryd). But even with these, I try to get a good feel for the effort and do as much as possible by RPE - only occasionally checking power to make sure that I'm on target.
My best runs are when I completely ignore the bloody Garmin. All these metrics end up being a huge distraction where we end comparing ourselves to our last runs or other people. I like to tune in to how my body is functioning, how the muscle groups are working together. I like to experiment with run form tweaks and have found that minor tweaks like driving forward with the knees and keeping the glutes engaged can produce more speed with similar effort. I like to pretend I'm flying, I get to some great mental spaces which is therapeutic for me. These are the runs that often make me go wow when I look at my connect afterwards! Cheers!
Would really love to get my zones properly tested…. As much as I’m a “run by feel” runner I do like to analyse the data after the run to see if I was in the “right zones” as per what I was feeling on the run
It’s totally fascinating and it actually predicted me to be around the same speeds as you. Sadly… that ain’t happening though!! You’ll have to do it for me 😂 it’s actually a confidence builder as it kind of confirms what you think. But it’s nice to have the science behind it 😊🤟🏼
I just subscribed. Thank you for presenting both training methods. So many other people say "use method X" without comparing and contrasting and looking at the bigger picture. I overworked myself on a new strength routine last week, and the following run put me at 10 BPM higher than I "felt" like was an easy effort. It was a huge red flag that I needed to hit the bicycle for a couple days. I needed the data and the history as well as being in tune with RPE.
Thanks so much for the kind words and insight. Yes I’m literally just making a video tomorrow about being in tune with RPE, HR and Pace! As you say, I think it’s really important 😊
Superb video. I like to go with a mix (half planned, half unplanned practice) to keep it organic and fun, but then again I'm not aiming for a 2:40 marathon..
Great video as always. Adjusting lots of information and techniques to fit your own running lifestyle seems to work for me. Taking an 11 day break from my 52 mile Ultra at the moment so that I can get run ready for an Epic 10K trail run in 2 weeks time. All the best from ,WOW, it really is sunny Wales 🌄🌄
Very important video. I noticed that 80 percent of my long runs which should be on zone 3 are on zone 4 🤯.. I let my Garmin 745 find my maximum HR etc.. I really stopped enjoying my runs because of looking at the HR often. Now I start the run and put the watch on the daytime face.. Just checking the distance every 20 minutes or so if on a new road. I enjoy running so much now that I run 2 times per day (6 km each).. Much nicer than 10 km in one time.
You’re forgetting the garmin factor as well. May as well try to get a chimp to calculate your zones using a banana 😂 that’s how close garmin is for me. Once I did it properly it was a game change and way less soul destroying but feel is also great 😊 🤟🏼
I switched to LTHR for my zones and it's better aligned to RPE than using the default Garmin Max HR zones that split the top 50% in equal 10% segments. Garmin's estimated LTHR requires a chest strap and is shown to be within a few bpm for most people. It correlates well with my 10k times and it's been a fun journey training and watching the very slow increase in LTHR and slightly faster improvement in Lactate pace. I'm a stat junkie but, like VO2 Max, they're a by product of regular training. If data and tech was robbing me of joy I'd ditch it tomorrow. I also find trying to run by RPE tends to see my HR sitting a bit higher than the zones 'dictate', maybe as a newish runner I'm just not in tune enough but the zones do tend to encourage me to slow down a bit! Great video as ever :)
Great to know that there is a lab like that in Bangkok, will have to check it out. Also, totally agree with running on feel, in such a socially connected world, it’s the best moment to disconnect from it, while reconnecting with our inner selves. Cheers 🙏🏻
I wear my gadgets but I don't monitor them while running. I use them to inform how accurate my 'feel' was. If I worked out solely based on HR zone, then I'd be walking most of the time. I think the HR zone approach is good for getting started, but I fail to see how being a slave to it is somehow, magically, going to be enable me to run faster, longer. It's hard work and if you don't push yourself you'll never get there.
I realized that I can be a very aggressive with my training. It’s something I’m trying to get my legs to do, when my legs feel great I run by feel even when my heart rate may be high. I am learning to dial it back so injury doesn’t strike! Love this video, thanks guys!
Sorry Ben on 2nd reading I feel that was a tad negative on you. Obvs Mary is open to bigger gains as a "newer" runner. God I'm digging bigger holes here. Listen love you both. Do your best ill shut up 😍😍😍
I would like to get tested for HR, but I also switch things up. I am currently in a long training block. But when not in a train block for upcoming race, I go buy how I feel. For me, right now, this works.
I see no reason to oppose feeling and using digital devices. You need to know yourself through body feedback, but a device will help you know for sure, and correct you when you're off.
Yep, as much as I like trying to run on feel I always accelerate throughout the run as my RPE gets skewed thanks to the heat/humidity factor. A blend is the way IMO 😊🤟🏼
Been flirting with the idea of doing this for years. I live in New York City so this isn’t cheap here at $350 for the lactate and aerobic capacity test. If it where like $150 I would do it for the hell of it but $350 is a lot just to know my HR zones. Would be interested to hear what this costs in other parts of the world.
Added con of the "science" approach: None of it, or at least very little of it, has been tested on *you*. Your body is not the average body, or the body of an average professional athlete in Europe or the US (which is the population from which most study participants tend to come). What's been shown to work for most people is definitely more likely to work for you than just some random fad, but nobody guarantees it will indeed work. You know your body best, so listen to scientific advice, try it out, but remember you are essentially running a small sample test on yourself; it may succeed or it may fail, and it's only you who can tell the difference. Oh, and as for taking in the scenery, do be careful! Everybody is talking about repetitive stress running injuries, but injuries of the old-fashioned kind, the ones you pick up by tripping on some bump in the road and falling over, shouldn't be discounted either. Look under your feet first; the scenery can wait.
The only problem I see with this: the tests you’re performing are nothing but a snapshot of your current accurate heart rate zones and lactate threshold. Those values will most probably change as you get better, or worse at running. You have to test regularly in order to keep up to date with your current values.
Lactate threshold yes, I’d agree with that, in an ideal world I’d test every few blocks. But heart rate zones in general, mine hasn’t really changed very much in 12 years. Just the paces I run at a given heart rate have improved. So you’re pretty safe with heart rate zones as a general rule 😊👍🏻
I was surprised you didn't include oxygen consumption within your lactate test. Is there a reason you didn't? Also do you think a treadmill test equates well to road? I imagine you'll find your HR a little higher on the road than a treadmill which would mean your paces a little slower?
At the age of 64, I have always run by feel (no HRMs or GPS watches when I was in my 20s). Sure, I look at my HR and speed (in km/h) while running, but it never dictates how I run. The only time I might slow down is if the HR is too high in the first half of a race 😄 I never do any specific speed (or easy) sessions either. If I feel good, I run faster - if I feel like crap, I run slower. I don't need a HRM to tell me that 👍
I think that you progress faster and more if you train using more scientific metrics but I also think it is only great for some types of people. For me I like knowing and I love science but I am also not disciplined enough to follow a strict plan (at least for long) so I mix it up by feel and by metrics. I do a couple of hard interval sessions a week but when I do my long day on trails I forget about the watch I only have it to check time and distance the rest I don't care and run on feel. I often also completely leave my watch at home and run super easy, what it does is remove the feeling that I am recording a slow run, Strava can be evil😂
With respect, at the end, you confuse training on feel with unstructured training. One can train on feel, without a HRM, and still be very structured. Likewise, one can train on feel, and wear a HRM, not display it on their watch and observe afterwards how their body responded. Hope this might help.
The people I know who run sub 3 hour marathons are all about the data, science, and exact training routines. I’m much more casual and just run by feel. That’s why my marathon time is around 3:30.
Healthy balance. Definitely agree with this. I did a lactate threshold test and ran by heart rate for a while. But for the past couple of years, I've been doing my easy runs by RPE. I'm not thinking of a numeric value, but rather an effort that I could maintain for hours. I've found running by RPE to be so much more enjoyable and less stressful. For the harder runs, I use power (Stryd). But even with these, I try to get a good feel for the effort and do as much as possible by RPE - only occasionally checking power to make sure that I'm on target.
Totally agree. Use it as a guide 😊 thanks
My best runs are when I completely ignore the bloody Garmin. All these metrics end up being a huge distraction where we end comparing ourselves to our last runs or other people. I like to tune in to how my body is functioning, how the muscle groups are working together. I like to experiment with run form tweaks and have found that minor tweaks like driving forward with the knees and keeping the glutes engaged can produce more speed with similar effort. I like to pretend I'm flying, I get to some great mental spaces which is therapeutic for me. These are the runs that often make me go wow when I look at my connect afterwards! Cheers!
It'd be interesting to see how the smart device estimates compare to lab test results
Would really love to get my zones properly tested…. As much as I’m a “run by feel” runner I do like to analyse the data after the run to see if I was in the “right zones” as per what I was feeling on the run
It’s totally fascinating and it actually predicted me to be around the same speeds as you. Sadly… that ain’t happening though!! You’ll have to do it for me 😂 it’s actually a confidence builder as it kind of confirms what you think. But it’s nice to have the science behind it 😊🤟🏼
By limiting your pace via arbitrary numbers like ‘zones’
Is limiting yourself.
@@fastinradfordable how about - by training purposefully and using the right zones for the right sessions your potential is unlimited! 😉
you guys are such a healthy voice in this community! thank you for your content!
I just subscribed. Thank you for presenting both training methods. So many other people say "use method X" without comparing and contrasting and looking at the bigger picture. I overworked myself on a new strength routine last week, and the following run put me at 10 BPM higher than I "felt" like was an easy effort. It was a huge red flag that I needed to hit the bicycle for a couple days. I needed the data and the history as well as being in tune with RPE.
Thanks so much for the kind words and insight. Yes I’m literally just making a video tomorrow about being in tune with RPE, HR and Pace! As you say, I think it’s really important 😊
Superb video. I like to go with a mix (half planned, half unplanned practice) to keep it organic and fun, but then again I'm not aiming for a 2:40 marathon..
Great video as always. Adjusting lots of information and techniques to fit your own running lifestyle seems to work for me. Taking an 11 day break from my 52 mile Ultra at the moment so that I can get run ready for an Epic 10K trail run in 2 weeks time. All the best from ,WOW, it really is sunny Wales 🌄🌄
Very important video. I noticed that 80 percent of my long runs which should be on zone 3 are on zone 4 🤯.. I let my Garmin 745 find my maximum HR etc.. I really stopped enjoying my runs because of looking at the HR often. Now I start the run and put the watch on the daytime face.. Just checking the distance every 20 minutes or so if on a new road. I enjoy running so much now that I run 2 times per day (6 km each).. Much nicer than 10 km in one time.
You’re forgetting the garmin factor as well. May as well try to get a chimp to calculate your zones using a banana 😂 that’s how close garmin is for me. Once I did it properly it was a game change and way less soul destroying but feel is also great 😊 🤟🏼
@@ThisMessyHappy when I got tested my Garmin 935 was accurate for VO2 and Lactate so I haven't bothered to get another test.
But I think you get more mitochondria benefit from a single longer run.
@@alanshrimpton6787 I am sure it is better to mix it.
I switched to LTHR for my zones and it's better aligned to RPE than using the default Garmin Max HR zones that split the top 50% in equal 10% segments.
Garmin's estimated LTHR requires a chest strap and is shown to be within a few bpm for most people. It correlates well with my 10k times and it's been a fun journey training and watching the very slow increase in LTHR and slightly faster improvement in Lactate pace.
I'm a stat junkie but, like VO2 Max, they're a by product of regular training. If data and tech was robbing me of joy I'd ditch it tomorrow.
I also find trying to run by RPE tends to see my HR sitting a bit higher than the zones 'dictate', maybe as a newish runner I'm just not in tune enough but the zones do tend to encourage me to slow down a bit!
Great video as ever :)
I’ve been doing the Heart runs and the head runs and it has been awesome!
Great to know that there is a lab like that in Bangkok, will have to check it out. Also, totally agree with running on feel, in such a socially connected world, it’s the best moment to disconnect from it, while reconnecting with our inner selves. Cheers 🙏🏻
That was really cool. I'd like to do that test some day. Hoping to do an all out 5k soon to recheck my zones.
I wear my gadgets but I don't monitor them while running. I use them to inform how accurate my 'feel' was. If I worked out solely based on HR zone, then I'd be walking most of the time. I think the HR zone approach is good for getting started, but I fail to see how being a slave to it is somehow, magically, going to be enable me to run faster, longer. It's hard work and if you don't push yourself you'll never get there.
I realized that I can be a very aggressive with my training. It’s something I’m trying to get my legs to do, when my legs feel great I run by feel even when my heart rate may be high. I am learning to dial it back so injury doesn’t strike! Love this video, thanks guys!
Only tech in training I use isfor a zone2 run, or Garmin coach.
After that it's just to record activity for Strava
Nice video. I run on feel but mastering data post run. I'm preparing for a sub 2:40 marathon too, let's do it together!
Oof nice work! I’m aiming for 2:40 in 2023 as I have 100k this year and also a marathon but in Bangkok 🥵🥵
I believe Mary will smash a sub 3hr 30m marathon 👍👍👍 Ben sub 2hr 40m is in your grasp.
Thanks Gary! I’d like to think I could give it one good crack before I’m too old but yes, agree, for Mary it’s right there 🤟🏼💪🏼
Sorry Ben on 2nd reading I feel that was a tad negative on you. Obvs Mary is open to bigger gains as a "newer" runner. God I'm digging bigger holes here. Listen love you both. Do your best ill shut up 😍😍😍
I run on feel with science as a starting point.
Great way of putting it. Science allows you to run on feel 🤟🏼
YES IT DOES! Discussion over! Slainte!
I would like to get tested for HR, but I also switch things up. I am currently in a long training block. But when not in a train block for upcoming race, I go buy how I feel. For me, right now, this works.
I’m an oldtimer, I run always on feel .
Ha ha fair play to you. It’s whatever Kees you happy is the way you should do it 😊
I see no reason to oppose feeling and using digital devices. You need to know yourself through body feedback, but a device will help you know for sure, and correct you when you're off.
Yep, as much as I like trying to run on feel I always accelerate throughout the run as my RPE gets skewed thanks to the heat/humidity factor. A blend is the way IMO 😊🤟🏼
Been flirting with the idea of doing this for years. I live in New York City so this isn’t cheap here at $350 for the lactate and aerobic capacity test. If it where like $150 I would do it for the hell of it but $350 is a lot just to know my HR zones. Would be interested to hear what this costs in other parts of the world.
Have you tried Supersapiens glucose monitor? I think that would be a good video trying out one month?
Review on endorphin speed 3?
Added con of the "science" approach: None of it, or at least very little of it, has been tested on *you*. Your body is not the average body, or the body of an average professional athlete in Europe or the US (which is the population from which most study participants tend to come). What's been shown to work for most people is definitely more likely to work for you than just some random fad, but nobody guarantees it will indeed work. You know your body best, so listen to scientific advice, try it out, but remember you are essentially running a small sample test on yourself; it may succeed or it may fail, and it's only you who can tell the difference.
Oh, and as for taking in the scenery, do be careful! Everybody is talking about repetitive stress running injuries, but injuries of the old-fashioned kind, the ones you pick up by tripping on some bump in the road and falling over, shouldn't be discounted either. Look under your feet first; the scenery can wait.
So true. A healthy mix is the way for sure 😊
How long were the steps? 1'? 3'?
(I assume it's a 1' recovery for taking the lactate values)
The only problem I see with this: the tests you’re performing are nothing but a snapshot of your current accurate heart rate zones and lactate threshold. Those values will most probably change as you get better, or worse at running. You have to test regularly in order to keep up to date with your current values.
Lactate threshold yes, I’d agree with that, in an ideal world I’d test every few blocks. But heart rate zones in general, mine hasn’t really changed very much in 12 years. Just the paces I run at a given heart rate have improved. So you’re pretty safe with heart rate zones as a general rule 😊👍🏻
I was surprised you didn't include oxygen consumption within your lactate test. Is there a reason you didn't? Also do you think a treadmill test equates well to road? I imagine you'll find your HR a little higher on the road than a treadmill which would mean your paces a little slower?
At the age of 64, I have always run by feel (no HRMs or GPS watches when I was in my 20s). Sure, I look at my HR and speed (in km/h) while running, but it never dictates how I run. The only time I might slow down is if the HR is too high in the first half of a race 😄
I never do any specific speed (or easy) sessions either. If I feel good, I run faster - if I feel like crap, I run slower. I don't need a HRM to tell me that 👍
I think that you progress faster and more if you train using more scientific metrics but I also think it is only great for some types of people. For me I like knowing and I love science but I am also not disciplined enough to follow a strict plan (at least for long) so I mix it up by feel and by metrics. I do a couple of hard interval sessions a week but when I do my long day on trails I forget about the watch I only have it to check time and distance the rest I don't care and run on feel. I often also completely leave my watch at home and run super easy, what it does is remove the feeling that I am recording a slow run, Strava can be evil😂
With respect, at the end, you confuse training on feel with unstructured training. One can train on feel, without a HRM, and still be very structured. Likewise, one can train on feel, and wear a HRM, not display it on their watch and observe afterwards how their body responded. Hope this might help.
Roots you in the now. Great selling point.
As a mid pack runner:
1- running with feel = fun; whilst
2- running with data = useful.
Fun + useful = progress (at least for me)
Here we go 🤣
I like the science but my long run is me and my tunes
The people I know who run sub 3 hour marathons are all about the data, science, and exact training routines.
I’m much more casual and just run by feel. That’s why my marathon time is around 3:30.