Unbreakable rotary engine apex seals explained | fullBOOST
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- Are apex seals the kryptonite of the Mazda Rotary engine? Seal integrity and coatings have come a long way in the last decade.
Special thanks to South Coast Rotary and Power Seals for supporting this video.
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#rotaryengine #fullBOOST #mazda #13B #20b #4rotor #rotary
Mazda needs to revive the rotary with modern machining and technology like these seals
Nathan Chapman They’ve been trying and not doubt are aware of and have access to these types of seals. The problem is trying to meet emissions with them and not destroy the engine. A rotary has problems getting oil to the apex seals without getting it into the combustion chamber. They also run more like a 2 stroke which is bad for emissions.
I love Mazda and rotarys. But, the only new rotary we’re likely to see is one running a generator in a hybrid.
Saw a article somewhere talking about how mazdas new rotary motor is gonna get unveiled very soon
Yep mazda is already made new rotary . . They will release it soon
Japple I’ve seen a video mazda tested their RX-8 on Nurburgring few weeks ago.
Check out the Liquid Piston X engine. It's basically an inverse Wankel that provides a solution to a lot of the problems plaguing the classic wankel rotary. Very interesting engine.
this gives me confidence back into rotary engines. good stuff.
Yeah but they don't say on how these seals are so hard they chew up the housings
I'm going to try my prototype on A rotary sooner or later.
I’m pretty sure they still suck 😂
@@MannyDelReal pretty sure you drive a honda
Can anybody show this to rob Dahm
Why would rob dahm use factory any thing on any of his builds?
not billet
Actually the 4 rotor is fully billet
I can’t imagine that 4 rotor engine has stock seals 🤨
I was getting ready to make this comment as well 😅
Good, straight up demonstration of the aftermarket making engineering improvements over factory... not just shiny things for your engine bay.
Thanks Broomy👍🏼
9 people disliked this video so far. They are probably LS swap guys.
NO- They're Barra fanbois. Get it right! 😉 Let's be honest- Barra girls are 10 times more painful. They're as bad as American 2JZ fanbois
Disliking a video means it wont show up in your feed again
I'd LS swap damn near anything if I could but I know them rotaries are not slouches by any means
@Eze&Yare Dominguez true, for those that can't do a real build, ls anywhere, rotary are for real mechanic, Japanese and European too, LS is so boring
@Searb reath Hahaha... 😅
“They told me it was impossible, they told me I was a madman.”
I love rotaries
Good timing:)
I'm just about to rebuild my Renesis again...
"the best Apex seal is a piston" - Abraham Lincoln
I suggest you all take note of what happened to that guy.
Gorge Washington didn’t die on the cross for you to talk that smack son
Grow up mate either you love rotarys or you don’t
@@BarnsB_23 don't be such a wankel
The engine debates are stupid, pick which one you prefer they are both good for different things and different people. I like rotary because it forces me to work on my car more and take better care of it
Yaaaas... Powerseals for the win, ceramic or others for shattered dreams.
I run these in mine too👌
Any problems yet?
@@niismo. Nope, making over 500whp for 4 years without drama.
If only the same amount of effort was put into the engineering of rotaries as piston engines, can't imagine where we'd be
Exactly. Research into rotary engines are much less than piston engines but they are still an impressive engine.
Tell rob dahm about this lol, or i should
You think he doesn't already know about it . . This shits been out 15 years
Yeah, like dahm would use factory seals...
@@dopeass791 These... Aren't factory seals... O.o They're made by a different company and made of completely different materials...
Tell rob damn his is an ASS CLOWN and to stay away from butchering and maligning rotary engines. Thank you. Drive thru.
So instead of what seems to be 'high tensile steel ' apex seals they use ' mild steel' ? 🤔 . Not trying to be a smartarse but it makes sense. The mild steel is like sand it will just mould to the shape but high tensile is like glass any decent hit it just shatters into ten thousand peices you keep finding 6 months later
Yep.
Factory apex seals are made of cast iron with a hardened section that is in contact with the rotor housing.
@@mobiusclean6440 kinda thought that but wasn't to sure so just went with 'high tensile'
Lol no that's not mild steel or high strength steel. Cast iron is used for wear resistance and cost, and it's adequate strength for stock power. Powerseal probably uses alloy low carbon tool steel. Hardened and tempered. Tempering will make it ductile enough depending on the time and temperature control.
it seems that factory seals are made somewhat from hard, brittle material. they are good for durability but not for sealing
I'd imagine the run in procedure would be very important with these, just like chromoly rings in a piston engine, you have to be gentle until the high spots wear down and the seal is sealing with even pressure all the way.
A standard apex seal, just like cast rings is much easier to break in with high load and low RPM, the ring or seal is what wears to the housing or bore and has a great sealing ability, but fragility is high, much more so in a rotary engine.
You can't beat reliability though, it may seal slightly less, but you can lean on them much more.
They forgot to mention these seals are so strong they chatter the hell out of the housings people running these run up to 2 oz premix per gallon of gas
10w30 isn't enough?
@@sofakingdom3076 10w30 would be the crankcase oil I'm talking about premix . Oil that is added to the gas
At least you will have good smell from your exhaust 😂
So what's the big deal . More premix is pennies compared to the cost of rotors or housings . Come on man you can't have it all.
@@Vgk36these Alex seals damages the housing so how are u saving money ?
We want RX7 FD remade with all new rotary engines. Bring the Legend back
My dad worked on NSU cars in Germany before coming to the US. He told me the same story of owners holding up their fingers declaring how many rebuilds that had, etc... told my buddy too. We were 16 and he bought an RX-7. About 3 months before it blew and he sold it lol
hurr durr
Is this like fairly new power seals ? You’re like the only video on this product And topic new modern seals aye?!:) makes me happy and motivated to stick with my Rx8
Would like to see reports of performance testing on durability longevity in street engine these new polices.
I watched a video on the I-Rotary Apex Seal, they're Italian made. Have you heard of them? It would be nice to see a comparison between the 2 companies on the street Apex Seals.
Friend of mine, Arthur from AJ racing in SA use these seals in his engines with GREAT success!! Awesome product thanks Kevin!!
Seems like these seals might be made with larger grains in the metals. Usually smaller grains are 'harder' to break, but they tend to snap when they do. longer grains tend to bend easily, but will not shatter like short grain metals do. Interesting!
Send to Angel Motorsports! Mochi needs these for his build lol
Mochi butt
Just had mine rebuilt with this seal recommended by the shop. NA 13b stock form.
I find it very interesting and I have to rebuild the engine of my RX8 but... Several people say that these reinforced Apex will consume housing early. Do you have any statistics regarding actual wear? Thank you very much!
Thats a good point mate, a lot of reputable builders I know use oem Mazda seals with 500 plus hp builds
Best way to help this problem is run more oil or premix in the tank
What would be the durability of these seals? Let's say for a road racing car, not a drag car... how many seasons can you get vs Ianetti ceramic seals?
Very interesting videos along with the porting. Can you go over running surface coatings and treatments like cermet and how they help long term durability or how they affect seal wear, please!
*QUESTION:* What do the rotor housings look like after 20K miles/33K Kilometers of driving? Chatter marks were often the downside to a lot of the earlier more durable seals (Rotary Aviation's early seals were notorious for leaving chatter marks on the rotor housings, for example).
WKZworks I’ve got customer engines in RX8’s that have these seals that have now done more km’s than the Mazda oem seals did in many cases.
what an awesome product, great real world testing to, the old hammer,
I have my doubts about the longevity of these seals as they are more ductile. Mazda spent millions of dollars and decades of research to find the right mix of longevity and sealing. The factory seals are electron beam hardened on the edge to provide the longest wearing surface so you're able to get a reliable engine.
For race applications a softer material is more desirable, but don't expect to put thousands of miles on it before it starts to use lots of oil, require a ton of premix, and just not be "streetable".
Mazda and other manufacturers use to have soft seals, aluminum and carbon, just carbon, etc. They all had their limitations for longevity and reliability and oil use. The legendary 787B used carbon seals for god's sake. Because it was a race car, using oil, or only have a small season life was different needs than a street car.
They spent millions of dollars 60 fucking years ago. Technology is not a line, it is a curve. Also the 26B was taken apart after the 24 hours of lemans and was noted that the engine could continue to run for several more 24 hour events without a rebuild.
Diddnt 767b have ceramic by then?
@@richiebarrow9169 Wow, 2 years ago. I was mistaken, it's actually the other way around. The earlier cars used the carbon seals, but as the power levels rose the Mazda race team developed the use of a "fiber-reinforced ceramic" seal. They also used a two-piece apex seal in the 787, where as the earlier cars used a one piece seal. The seal allowed for high strength and improved wear at high outputs. The two piece seal provided better sealing which increased overall output ~2-3% and lowered fuel consumption.
but are they also suitable for use in street cars, where reliability is more important than power and rebuild-ability? It sounds like they are a lot softer and would get worn more quickly
Much rather that then an entire engine rebuild
theyre still plenty hard enough for long term use...they just arent 30+ year old designs. Metallurgy has stepped up an insane amount
Their online shop don't seem to have 13b power seals apex seals available...
The upside to “unbreakable apex seals” is of course the ability to hold more power and not suffer from catastrophic apex seal failure due to poor tuning and/or a failed part and/or external system. But throughout the history of the Mazda rotary engine apex seals have not been an issue ever (as a root cause), they do have a limit which is where these “unbreakable” seals may come in handy, but the drawback is that they will chew up housing chrome surface due to being a much harder material. Mazda designed their seals to last, not to hold big power. If you’re building an engine for big power (over 500whp) then by all means go with these (or better yet the lanetti I-rotary seals), but anything 500whp and below OEM is perfectly fine so long as your tune isn’t shit and external parts and systems are in order
I'd agree with most of what you said but I think these seals are much softer not harder which is why they bend instead of snap. I would think that theses seals would actually wear themselves out much faster vs a stock super hard brittle seal.
👍 Interesting comments. Do u know if premixing 1/2 - 1oz 2 stroke oils per gallon will definitely help either hard or soft seals or just a myth to sell more oils? Many have advised to premix with regular non synthetic 2 stroke oils but I have not seen scientific proof or before / after photos of seals & rotors with different oils. Also if rotaries do not have crankcase oils, would that be reason why piston rings get adequate oil lubrication and Apex seals suffer more? Thanks & keep up great info 🙏⭐🎆👍
4 yrs later. Who has the most miles on the street seals and do you have compression numbers?
Go in through the rear and screw into the front... 😂
I'll show myself out.
Factory seals are like glass wow i didn't know how fragile they are
It's a bit of an exaggeration.
Probably less brittle than an HSS drill bit.
I gave up on my RX7 coz it wasn't even turbid yet I went through 4 sets of apex seals.. I want to get another one but if the seals are still gonna die I couldn't afford it.. Someone told me Ceramic seals are way more tough and that's the kind of seals Rob Dam (tgink that's his name) and he's got 10 times more power how do his survive?
Just because car manufacturers have abandoned rotaries, doesn't mean the community has.
The car community has been gradually working and improving on issues the rotary engines have, and the aftermarket engines are very reliable if you take care of them.
I wonder, how this seals compare to live lenght of engine, as i did few rx8 engines, not only apex seals grove is wobbled bc of many duty cicles, rx8 apex seals is shorter, and ai wonder is this kind of seals would be used more quickly. Also more aftermarket seals, make marks on housings,this are softers, so that would make sense that they wouldn't do that. But i would like to see engine after 30kkm on this seals.
Also You didn't showed how much force would side and corner seals take.
Cheers!
They look unhardened compared to the hardened Mazda seals.
If they use the same metal, hardened would wear less on the contact area, leading to better durability.
Hopefully the unhardened seals are of better quality steel, to make up for the worse durability.
Did you get doktorbimmer Sander Van Der Kammen's permission to post this? He's not going to like finding this video, Fullboost. You've been warned.
I wouldn’t trust many shops to build an engine for me, my brother bought a full kit, these seals, print kit, seal kit, the works, went to a builder who sold him an engine and rebuilt it for him apparently with the seal kit my bro supplied, had a set of webers fitter so this wasn’t a big power build it was a cruiser, engine failed on the dyno, builder had it fixed before my brother got there, car seemed good, got 100km out of it failed again, builder apparently rebuilt it again, then another 200km later it failed again! fed up with the builder he pulled it down to find used junk seals, damaged housings, damaged rotors all not recent damage, all the springs were worn, just rubbish seals and bits salvaged from a bin and then when my brother pulled the builder up he abused my brother accusing him of not supplying a seal kit and it was a shit engine! This crap builder sold him the engine and pocketed the rebuild kit, probably didn’t even rebuild it just gave it a clean and paint.
👆👆👆👆 number of engines I’m on w my 04 RX8, and wouldn’t trade it for a piston engine ever. Just pulled the engine out in a few hrs. Apex seal broke in the rear rotor-catastrophic I’d say w all the scoring but have replacement parts coming. Def looking into these. Love the information on the vid thank you sir!
Simple solution, premix. These would are good but if you don't premix your engine WILL blow up
@@faisal3398 Interesting comments. Do u know if premixing 1/2 - 1oz 2 stroke oils per gallon will definitely help seals or just a myth to sell more oils? Many have advised to premix with regular non synthetic 2 stroke oils but I have not seen scientific proof or before / after photos of seals & rotors with different oils. Also if rotaries do not have crankcase oils, is that why piston rings get adequate oil lubrication and Apex seals suffer more? Thanks 🙏⭐🎆👍
@@chrislg4519 Look up rotary forums I haven't owned a rotary you'll find specifics there.
Rotaries have a crankcase but the rotor itself and the apex seals (or in fact all seals for the rotor) are in an inclosed chamber away from the crankcase and oil, thus Mazda uses oil squirters to lubricate the walls and seals but they are hilariously inadequate especially in the RX8 causing catastrophic failure, thus people resort to premixing, the oil is already in there but they just use a more reliable way that provides better lubrication.
Edit: also yes, you use 2 stroke premix, once again check the forums.
@@faisal3398 Great thanks for reply Faisa 🙏👍 i will check more forums as i try and keep seals & rotors well conditioned 🌟☺ Blessings to you ⭐
awesome stuff
Would putting the petrol Power seals into a totally stock 13B-REW make it nearly as reliable as a piston engine?
Its thats power seal available for mazda rx8?. Also for rx8 apex seal strong like this video?
Where my mate rice racing at
german design
That guy struck me as a bit of a wanker.
Hahahaha everything I need to know about apex seals *reads packaging* yes it’s apex seals it’s not hard 😂
They still have reliability issues. Don't kid yourself.
Cheers mate. I'll keep them in mind next rebuild.
The question is, the non meth seals, how streetable are these? For a like 500hp street rotary, are the upgrade seals worth it?
Fg Carlover yes. I have put them in every one of my customers street engines for the last 10 years
Where's the Bench Torque episode?
They're just waiting for the comments section below from some of the armchair mechanics so they have some dumbass material to explore!
Finding content is never a problem 😉 hopefully in the next week...bit time poor atm 👍
@@fullboost LOL!!! 😅
So, correct me if im wrong, this seals are for cars only for racing, for a street legal car it wont work
Could always make Diamond seals for lifespan but who wants an engine that lasts (GM, mistibishi,... Etc..)
People with with a budget lol. Only the rich can have fun with rotary.
@@jayknight139 I'm building up a duratec 2.3 but I found a good condition rx8 for 600$ 32890 miles real old person weekend driver
@@Project-gr6zy I dont know much about rotary engines but I love the RX8. Are rotary engines hard to work on relative to piston?
@@jayknight139 really easy to work on , just different
People use diamond grinding wheels not seals lol
These do not protect your rotary engine from a bad tune.
Why the Standard Seal its so Dan hard?
You know what steel its made?
Claiming "NO", damage whatsoever, is a big, BIG, ask.
At the start of the video you claim there will be NO damage to the seal, at around 8 minutes in, you tell the truth stating the seal edge will get deformed.
You didn't script & practice your video did you? ..... or you might have picked up on that.....
Great Apex Seals would like try some on my next build.
On the spectrum i see. Good for you mate! Keep on keeping on
Cheers for the insight no bullsh#t apex seals mate 😀
What is the standard mileage life of these power seals versus mazda oem seals. Im looking at rebuilding my RX8 and if these have good life then i will be running these. Car will not be used for heavy race application. It will be my daily and/or weekend toy
Check out I-Rotary , they produce the ceramic seals mazda used in the NA 4 rotor. This company now sells metallic seals, through select dealers.
Godsent product. And I don't even own a car. I just love rotaries. These seals and billetpro would make great engines!
how are they on rotor housing wear, as one is a weekend warrior car that will see 2-3k km in a year, but how about cars that are daily, do these seals preserve the housings as well as the oem apex seals ? or are they like goopy which will destroy the housing basically after some mileage
this was a $300-400 at cost demonstration video
I'm sure those were old parts from broken motors, so likely actually $0 cost.
Maybe the power seal, but that didn't look like a new one, so likely it was a used part that wasn't going back in another engine, either. ;)
is worth using these seals for a stock 4 port 13b?
With all the new tech for rotaries out now it really is just personal preference. I like being forced to be at the garage to work on my car, a lot of people don't want that and it's understandable. Much love for the dorito and the piston
Hammer and vice test for apex seals is the rotary equivalent of the Falex lubricity tester for engine oils. It's a shame that there isn't a video on YT that delves into the incredible technologies and engineering that went into mazda/mitec apex seals because it really does make this sort of thing look like a joke.
Will those solid corner seals wear the irons prematurely like the other solid corners? Better stick with OEM corners?
So you guys only make 13b apex seals but nothing for 12a?
80lbs of boost... Bruh
Hi ;) What can you tell about compression after 1 year in engine where you put this apex seals?
Such a cool design they just got lazy when Ford stepped in.
Can we use this seals on our non Racing Daily driver?
Jósel Pérez yes, I have plenty of customers with them in RX8’s. Premix is mandatory however to ensure proper seal lubrication (known issue with early rx8 engines)
@@BackyardMechanics Excellent. But with this seals is still mandatory to premix too?
So yes it does not shatter but those seals that bend means they are less hard so they would be only for race applications because they will not give as long miles as the hard seals.
im sold, whats the catch
probably wears out faster than the harder (but less ductile) factory seals
When shit goes bad you fuck absolutely everything
@@motorised1 the purpose of these seals is to avoid exactly that. Did you watch the video or are you a troll?
rob dahm needs to see this
I'm pretty sure he already has his current engine pretty squared away
Why?
His engine was built by CBR in nz they know what's what and will have used the best of the best.
@@alleydee9226 WHAT- no one in the U.S could build him a decent rotory! Fuck. All these PR's that claim they're the shit when it comes to rotors
U think Rob doesn't know his shit ? Lol .
How long would one last before you have to rebuild an engine for say standard everyday driving
Kevin Webb has been building Rotaries for many years
Súper 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥💪🏻
As soon as you mentioned SCR I switched off.
Thanks for trying at least 😀
Why what's wrong with scr
Question don't they need stronger springs under apex seals?
mind to tell us what material is used to make the seals and how are they made?
So can those apex seals warp under detonation? Then will it damage the rotor housings if so?...
No, the seals warp because they are mild steel and are softer. If the seals are softer than the housing, then you won't scratch the housing with the seals.
The seals have a spring behind them. The seal is inside the groove of the rotor. I imagine if it warp it will get stock inside the rotor groove and the spring wont be able to push them out. therefore preventing damage to the housing
Yeah bugger that. Carbon seals for the win.
I have these installed on my fc turbo
Ceramic seals or carbon seals?
Ceramic or factory.
Carbon for NA race engines
I am no expert but in your testing of the seal what you are showing is the fact that they are not heat treated from factory correctly or an incorrect carbon content ratio of the material... So why does this not fall under manufacturer defect? Changing their heat treating process would fix this?
Probably depends on warranty contract & what is considered factory defect, so too large grey area to be show factory defect imho.
I'm really loving these informational videos you guys are doing lately no silly music just amazing content! Just in time for smoko👍
Are these silicon nitride apex seals?.
The engine would be Bridgeported
The end irons are cheaper than the center iron
I see what your saying and not doubting the powerseal products tho i think a unbreakable rotary will forever be a dream tough 😬
Love the sound of the 787b tough!
🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
I say rx8 engine recall go power seal
What grade of steel is used to make the Apex seals these days?
Cool advertisement bro
Thanks bro 👍
tl;dr they're not brittle, they bend.
Ay Randy... This one's for you buddy.
Correct me if I’ve misunderstood...but did he say that the seals are not recommended for the everyday user rather race cars?
The race (or methanol) seals aren't good for street driving due to their coating. The gas ones (labelled 'street' on the seals themselves) are fine for a street engine. I'll be getting a set for my FC when I build that motor. Complete street car, full interior mildly molded example (once I'm done).
Eric K cheers for that mate.
I only see apex seals for the 12a. And they're only 3mm anyone know of some good 2mm ones for a 13b t2's
Cody Green they make them for 13b in 2mm and 3mm, rx8 and 12a
@@BackyardMechanics yeah see now they're on their website the other day it was literally only 12a shit and an intake manifold for 13b
'Bout bloody time.
i see what you did there hitting lower on the standard seal to help it break and higher on the one your selling to let if flex you should be a magician
motorised1 wholly shit, you’re on to me, that’s EXACTLY what I did. Call the FBI dude, you’re on to something..... moron
If you look closely you can see where Broomy used sticky tape to hold the pre cut pieces together 🤣
@@BackyardMechanics relax guy we all know it was a paid advertisement