What Shamima Begum tells us about the Government, Courts & Culture War
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
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In 2019 Sajid Javid stripped Shamima Begum of her British citizenship for leaving the UK to join ISIS in 2015. The latest of several appeals against her ban from returning to the UK has been denied after Begum's lawyers argued that having left at 15, she was a victim of grooming and child trafficking.
The latest ruling to keep Begum from returning to the UK has once again ignited fierce debate in the media and online. But what are the deeper issues at play? Is this a question of law and order and a British citizen who should be brought back to face justice in British courts? Are we overlooking the important role of grooming in radicalisation? Would public sympathy be greater if Begum wasn't a muslim woman of colour from a working class background?
Author & journalist Otto English, and Byline Times Editor Hardeep Matharu join Byline TV co-founder & producer George Llewelyn to discuss exactly what this latest ruling means, and its context against the backdrop of a country grappling with issues of race, class and a culture war.
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I remember defending her in a tweet to LBC a few years ago. I was bombarded with hate tweets. I just blocked the idiots because they're not worth replying to. I wasn't defending her actions, just saying she should be brought back to face trial or at least some sort of debriefing. We need to find out how people are radicalised and who better to tell us than someone who's been through it? As for a threat to the UK? In 1940 German bombers were pummelling London, now that was a threat but a 15 year old girl being trafficked and sold to a half baked terrorist group? I don't think so.
"Cruelty springs from weakess" - - Seneca
We have a government who is systematic transferring our wealth to the super rich for the last 40, this is why you feel poorer despite all that growth over the last 40 years. they keep enough of us, self harming and voting for them by splitting us apart and making us fear and hate each other. Begum is gods gift for them, making so many people angry.
I think its all rather naive to think that this government would limit their use of this power to people are too brown for their liking, given how sticky some citizenships are, irish citizenship has saved many a brexit supporter from the consequences of their votes, a large percentage of this country are vulnerable. Given the principle of justice dishing out equal punishment for equal harm, with begum as a baseline where do we stop. The decisions of johnson and his ministers, their deprived indifference, caused excess deaths, compaired with other island states, which in 2 years outnumbered civilian deaths of wwii; far more harm than begum could possibly have achieved. should we be stripping them of their citizenship where we can, how about the people who voted for them and put them in a position to cause these deaths?
my own feelings are fundamentally she was made by our society, we should be dealing with her, rather than dumping her on poor society without the infrastructure to deal with any risks might she pose. Just look at how some latin american countries are being torn apart by criminal gangs founded by gang members deported by americans who dont want to deal with their own creation.... and now don't want to deal with the refugee crisis of people trying to escape the violence the americans exported their country.
she was 15, and young teenagers do monumentally stupid stuff, sometimes deadly, life changing... and then go on to productive lives.... thats why we don't let them sign contracts, drive cars, join the army, get married and its why we have a separate justice system for them, one that she should go through and face the consequences.
I recall from way back that comedian dave Chappelle had an old provocative skit called how old is 15 really? it tackled the Shamima begum racism even before it happened. The sad thing is that it was Sajid Javid that did this. He has in essence created a tiered citizenship class in this country. Very shameful.
Actions of another self-serving rancid Tory, who was jockeying for position. Good riddance.
Always appreciate hearing from Hardeep on issues like this. Thanks, Byline.
IMO she shouldn’t be allowed to return. I’ve seen many of her interviews where she literally shoots herself with her comments. We’ve all been 15 at some point in our lives but no mistake to this degree. She should pay the price of her poor decision making and deal with consequences.
Question. If it was a young man instead of an attractive 15 year old girl, a young man who went on to actively kill, rape, torture, behead, but who subsequently said "Oh silly me! That was all utter nonsense, I was misled and radicalised and led astray" would we be anywhere near as sympathetic? Or does our claim to be non sexist only work when it favours the woman? The chances of a successful prosecution of those crimes are slim - witnesses would be dead, non traceable or reluctant
Other British people who went to fight for ISIS have returned home and returned to society.
@Wolfie Smith don't u think she should be mad to answer to Syrians?
@@BigHenFor Like who?
@Wolfie Smith Why in the UK? She committed crimes in Syria, not the UK. Let her rot in hell.
@@BigHenFor So we should release all criminals, because not all crimes are punished?
Imagine if they did let her back in.... Right wing goons would forget about dinghies and Hazza and Meghan for a year
Exactly 🤣
Simple. If ANY British Citizen, breaks UK law, they should be tried and if guilty sentenced after appearing in person in a UK court. She would not pose any security risk until after her trial. If found not guilty she would be no greater security risk than any previously innocent person.
It's very simple: if her story was the same but she'd been called Jemima Bacon, and her parents had Australian citizenship, no way would this have happened.
No it wouldn't, because Jemima Bacon was born in Australia. Ms Begum was an immigrant to Britain, she had another state she could claim citizenship from
@@Pippins666 Ms. Begum was not an immigrant. She was born in the UK and held British citizenship, only. Contrary to speculation/suggestions she has never held any other nationality.
@@Pippins666 no Shamima could not have claimed citizenship from Bangladesh. They officially stated they would not take her, and anyway she would have faced the death penalty there so there's no way she'd have even tried. Javid should have established this before he revoked her UK citizenship.
She is second generation British, born in London.
My (white) mum is British but was born in north Africa. God forbid she fell foul of the government and was stripped of her citizenship, because she wouldn't be accepted in her country of birth for religious reasons.
By joining ISIS Shamima Begum became an enemy of the state (UK). Stripping her of her citizenship thus was nothing but the logical consequence. Of course age is an important point to consider, but then again taking away one’s citizenship, oddly enough, is not a legal punishment as a judicial matter, but something handled by the executive branch of government. Thus, there is no concept of legal aga to be considered here. Also, with 15 years of age you should have at least a clue of what is right or wrong (or at least, what is considered in your own country of birth to be right or wrong), and acting against these principles to an extreme degree could also bear extreme consequences.
What about Jack Letts?
Perhaps it would be better to bring forward examples of the many male counterparts to this case?
Its a pity criminal responsibility is 10. Childhood ends at 18? Screwed up country.
Not once - not ever - did Shemima's Skin-Colour/Race or Religion play ANY part in my own feelings about her case....and I'm angry to hear a commentator calling those with any opinion not exactly the same as his - as Racist & Mysoginystic ..... That's simply not true....
If she had been white and called ‘Jack Letts’, she would have been let back in to Britain.
Or, perhaps not. Perhaps it isn’t xenophobic.
I do not feel much sympathy with Shamima Begum, she always seemed rather hard-faced when interviewed about the horrors she went through. Perhaps it was a reaction to trauma. I would ask though why male former ISIS fighters were allowed back?
Thank you for this important discussion that other media outlets avoid.
Whenever a STATE acts to stifle the voice of an INDIVIDUAL dissident then it begs the question: "How legitimate is the state?"
I know. For true justice to proceed hand her over to Syrian forces.
What a ignorant comment. The UK alongside America and others created this situation in the first place!Being all high and mighty is riduculous and foolish.
@@lamueldagon7618 there is no moral responsibility where a conflict is borne from a morale vacuum on all sides. In these circumstances natural law often proceeds. The fact that she is there in the first place renders all appeals to morality moot. Of course no one likes the pretense of a moral point to fail. By protecting her You are condoning what she has done. When innocence has been broken there is no excuse. Do u think child soldiers get special exemptions on the battlefield? It's you who are ignorant. This whole issue is wrapped up in bad faith.
She is a British citizen. She should be allowed home.
Ian Dale is usually Gammon Gammon Gammon
I agreed with Hardeep and Andrew! We need to look at this with a cold mind rationally.
🤠💜
The important point is that a citizen is dealt with by laws; that is essentially 'the society'. This individual is denied citizenship so the ruling group (government) are not fulfilling the most basic ideas of society; it follows they are either failing or utilising the inherent powers for other purposes.
Victim 100% Trafficked.
love the video .
This rightwing (and conservative) establishment use these kind of politically emotive stories to keep society devided, because their continued empowerment depends on it.
Er, no. Islamic extremism aims to keep society divided. In its opinion, unbelievers are unworthy of life. Ask the Yazidis…
…oh no, you can’t ask the Yazidis any longer.
Has Otto ever heard of Jack Letts?
They had a whole conversation about Jack Letts. All of you mentioning him seem to have failed to watch the whole video. Go back watch properly and listen fully.
@@arymus Just struggling to find the racism angle.
@@jo18533 I actually think this discussion is too sophisticated and nuanced for most of Britain who don't even think about how easy they find it to treat BIPOC rights as less than white Brit rights. A 'racism angle' is too simplistic to apply here. It is so innate in so many Brits to 'other' brown people. But, if Jack Letts is your main focus, Otto addressed that example and said he felt it was false equivalance. Jack was an adult and had Canadian citizenship. Shamima was 15, groomed by adults and has been rendered nationless which contravenes global agreements about human rights. Otto also mentioned that white men in positions of power who have been collaborating with Russia against Brit public interest but no one has even suggested stripping their citizenship. You are also ignoring Hardeep's points about how we can use this as an opportunity to really look at how Britain affects individual identity for people who have heritage outside of Europe and how the British generally view people of non-white heritage. But, like I say, I think this is nuanced, big concept stuff for a nation that is currently caught up in very base level ugly regressive discourse overall. If you genuinely want to understand what people are talking about here, you could. You just have to make the decision to really listen and not be reactionary.
@@arymus Fair enough, what country do you think would be sophisticated enough to have the discussion? 'It is so innate in so many Brits to 'other' brown people. ' I agree with that, the question would be why. ' Otto also mentioned that white men in positions of power who have been collaborating with Russia against Brit public interest' Who? 'we can use this as an opportunity to really look at how Britain affects individual identity for people who have heritage outside of Europe and how the British generally view people of non-white heritage.' Why would the native population want to do that?
@@jo18533 What country would do things better is not a sensible approach. Britain needs to deal with its own ID politics problems. British people who nostalgise over sepia tinged 'memories' of an all white Britain but refuse to confront the truths of colonialism - not healthy and very cowardly. Britain has its own unique issues and no other country can help with that. Its people need to find the courage to view Britain honestly and then it won't be so easily manipulated by corrupt goverments and a polluted news media. Otto talking about Russian influence is a very useful comparison. You can't ask people to spoon feed you. There is a ton a quality journalistic evidence of certain British figures collaborating with Russian interest. It isn't hard to find or in any way dubious. You can choose to look at it or choose to pretend that it isn't there. Your responsibility. 'Native' population is how you closed your comment by outing yourself as a white supremacist. Just be the big brave white man that you view yourself as and say openly that you are a White Supremacist. There is no such thing as a 'native' British population and if there were the idea that they should be hateful and selfish after having such a distructive effect on the whole planet through colonialism? Truely diseased thinking. What are you selling with that other than the notion that white Brits are inherently evil? You are not doing any good for you or anyone else. Decide exactly what tribal group you think you are speaking for when you speak and be honest about it. That way anyone who does not identify with your tribal thinking can seperate themselves and be clear about where they stand (which hopefully is nowhere near you).
If she had been white and called ‘Jack Letts’, she would have been let back in to Britain.
Or, perhaps not. Perhaps it isn’t xenophobic.
They had a whole conversation about Jack Letts. All of you mentioning him seem to have failed to watch the whole video. Go back watch properly and listen fully.
I agree with the woman commentator - little is known how Begum was radicalised. HOWEVER - it seems extremely unlikely that she was radicalised by catholics or protestants, lutherans or even druids. How about starting with her immediate family and friends? Move out to any iman or cleric that had contact with her or her family and friends. That would narrow the search for a source would it not?
Dear Bot, You obviously don't know anything about this story. Perhaps you should do your homework?
@@BigHenFor I think that the “bot” speaks much truth.
Most are radicalised online. But, that was not even what this conversation was about. Did you actually watch and listen or just have an instant triggered bigot reaction as soon as you saw the title??
@@arymus seems you did not look at my comment - I guess I AM bigoted - but it is against religion rather than any particular blend - now, after so much time from comment to question i admit i do not recall the interview - so what!
“Deal with difference” = accept the unacceptable. “Conflicting sense of who you are” = heads in bins!!!!! WTF! Sorry no 👎🏻
Analyse the basic tenets of Izloom is it ok to murder apostates? Or to lapidate women suspected or accused of adultery?
Of course humans discriminate against bad ideas we went through the renaissance and the enlightenment we have been through reformism and have a new testament which is love not hate. Also yes as a Christian society we should use the power of Jesus to heal radicals of their death cult.
Jako thinks he is in The Crusades. 🙄
Nobody is exploiting anything.
If it was 1945 and Begum had been wearing a German uniform when she did what she did, she would have been hanged at the Nuremburg Trials. People were hanged for less.
Begum was gleefully vocal about her direct participation in beheadings, and she thought it was hilarious. Now she misses warm dinners and tiktok and she wants to come home.
The press is reporting it because events are occurring in her trial.
And FYI the press in the UK is overwhelmingly hard left leaning if you do any analysis on it. Im not sure that "right wingers" are in much of a position to exploit anything in the current climate.
.......'press in the UK is overwhelmingly hard left leaning'.... Deluded Express's fan here, haha
Are effing serious!?
I would hardly describe the Express, Mail, Telegraph, Times or Sun as hard left, quite the opposite in fact.
"If it was 1945..... People were hanged for less." Asinine argument. You need to catch-up more than half a century.
1) I suggest you look at the history of the Sonnenkommando during World War II.
2) Old Estonian Tory MP who spied for the Germans doesn't get prosecuted? Britain has problems with Race and Class.
Mate just say you’re racist and move on it’s not that hard
Islam is right about women.
So in a previous comment you are claiming something else. Now this comment. What do you mean by 'Islam is right about women'. What do you understand about Islam? What do you think about women? Be clear about you thoughts/opinions and cite your knowledge and evidence.
@@arymus I am merely saying, what Islam teaches about women is correct.
@@jo18533 What do you imagine it teaches about women. Be clear.!
@@arymus Far too much to go into on a comment. It is all contained within Islamic texts. Islam is right about women.
@@jo18533 If you don't have anything real to say then maybe just be quiet. You hate women. You hate BIPOC. Who do you not hate? Maybe wrinkly, ham coloured men with inflamed prostates and hemarroids? That is a very insular group. Why should anyone other than wrinkly ham-men with inflammation problems care about anything you say? Especially as you have not really said anything.