Triple Quench vs Single Face Off!
Вставка
- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- Can triple quenching reduce grain size over single quenching in 5160 steel? My microscope says yes. The value of triple quenching is hotly debated. Here, in admittedly less than scientific conditions, I compare triple quenching to single quenching and the effects of temperature control vs forgeside quenching on grain size in 5160 with surprising results. My own takeaway is that triple quenching can reduce grain size over single quenching and that tight temperature control in a heat treat oven is king, even in famously forgiving steels like 5160. More cracks, more warps, more stress with triple quenching? That could be true, this video does not examine those issues.
This video is going to be heavily criticized and I understand why. You're on solid ground no matter what your response to it is. So don't go nuts!
Support this Channel! / greenbeetle
www.greenbeetle...
Inquiries stephen@greenbeetlegear.com
This content is copyrighted and may not be reused, published or distributed without my permission.
Excellent video. I'm not sure it answers the questions. But it does show that triple quenching doesn't produce a significant result. I tend to be in favor of the classic blacksmiths approach to "annealing" heat and cool in vermiculite or ashes over night. But I know it is far from the industry standard for what true annealing is. I wonder how this process differs from simple normalizing in air.
Annealing doesn't guarantee that all the carbon gets into solution so you won't get a consistent hardness like you would from a normalized piece heated until just non-magnetic. Otherwise from annealed, you need different soak time at a low enough temperature to not grow grains but long enough to dissolve the carbon. I prefer the more repeatable method. Another funny thing is that the exact temperature needed to quench entirely decreases as the grain gets smaller, and so does the speed needed to quench to fully harden. So with super fine grain, the steel would go non-magnetic earlier but if you picked a specific temperature, you'd have been off and grain would have grown up to that temperature's size, sort of. Also you have to quench faster so the usual canola even for thin blades probably won't do and fit choppers you might even need water or brine if your grain is as fine as possible. Ovens do a much better job at ensuring small grains by not overheating, though. I think a triple normalization would be the most realistic refining if you had coarse grain from overheated forging.
Loved the video, reminded me of the labs I had in university when I took engineering materials. Same concept except all temp controlled ovens. If you were to revisit this what I'd suggest is buying a $20 old school microscope, if you get the lighting right you can put a camera up to the eye piece and take a picture. Also sanding and polishing the samples to a fine mirror finish and etching the surface lightly. I don't remember how long we etched it in the lab 10s 15s or 30s then dried it with a heat gun. After that you can see the fine grain structures thanks to the etching. I can try and find my labs if you're interested, love the videos.
yeah man, send it!
I have no clue what I watched but I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and agree with whatever you said. I just enjoy your vids man
Your snarky ass description of how all of this fails the scientific process is as hilarious as it is eye opening. I now hold every medical abstract I read to this standard. They are all lacking! Keep up the amazing work!
I work in automotive tool engineering, ya know I could always provide you some Rc hardness data on any piece you want free of charge w/out leaving marks on the surface (we use $2-5K ultrasonic equipment). In CA, however.
Hey will do. I'll email you on Monday when I'm back in office. I can take hardness levels from various points on the piece as long as the surface is not exceedingly rough (like 100% hammer marks).
Inquiries stephen@greenbeetlegear.com
A great experiment to see what conditions your conditions are in.
awwwwwww
I woke up this mornin with the sundown shinin in i found my mind in a brown paper bag but then I tripped on a cloud and fell eight miles high i tore my mind on a jagged sky i just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in. Kenny rogers if i am correct sir. 🇺🇸✨
Now that’s some fine grain structure analysis...
The one process that wan't covered, that would be interesting to see. Anneal, no normalization, triple quench.
A performance stress test on each piece would be more meaningful. There is likely some limited returns effect regarding grain structure. At some point it’s likely that the extra effort in heat treating won’t be worth the minimal gains. It would be interesting to see the relationship between grain structure/size and performance. Maybe you should heat treat a bunch of samples and send them to aVe to destroy.
bump
that would make pretty good science
I think the larger the grain size the weaker the blade.
eric justus true, but at what point is the effort to reduce grain size not worth the benefits gained?
Damnit Lou I'm a knife maker not a metallurgist. In my limited experience ruining hours of work, normalizing twice and quenching once and tempering twice has been pretty good. I've only used O-1. But I think I am going to switch to 5160. I was under the impression O-1 was easier than 5160, but I was horribly wrong. I don't have any fancy gear and I only make knives for the simple joy of creating and giving them out to family and friends so that they feel guilty around Christmas time. Best of luck in your endeavors
eric justus I personally do not enjoy making knives. I have two that are sitting in limbo partially ground. I prefer blacksmithing. Still, the concepts here are just as important for tool making as they are for knives. In fact, my smithing tools take a lot more beating than knives do so the heat treat and chosen steel can have a larger impact in their usefulness. But, honestly, I wasn’t directing my question right at you. It was a hypothetical. I do believe there is some point at which all the hyper focus on grain structure and perfecting the heat treat loses its value.
I didn't see any differences between single successful quench and triple or hundredple mega quench.
As a new knife maker I find all of these experiments interesting. Thank you for taking the time to do these.
Thanks for sharing. I'm still at the point of cracking blades all the time (W2), probably due to water being too cool, or over-heating prior to quench. Good to show that at least one normalizing cycle is needed for just about everything, and more for good knives.
I think Dr. Jim Batson from the ABS and Kevin Cashen M.S. published some lengthy articles on the subject using lab grade equipment, its a very dry read but this gets the point across just as well. "We don't need them there fancy talk about decalescence, spherodizing, carbon diffusion and such" lol. I use 5160 almost exclusively and I've seen how it can go wrong more than how it can go right. Keep up the awesome work man.
Good to know about the annealing 5160 issue, I have been reading up on it and partial plate quench and other messings around to anneal doesn't really go with "a bunch of springs I got for free" It seems to file and drill ok after doing what I thought was annealing it.
Very interesting, thank you!
Great experimentation, lots of work but I’m not experienced or brave enough to risk a triple quench (warping, cracking) for any minuscule rewards I might get in my personal forge layout, thank you!
Thank you for your video i found it well edited and enjoyable. The whole thing was informative and entertaining
Breaking the cross section to check the grain is not very effective. As you're looking at broken grain and not really the grain structure or martensite formation. Plus the finer the grain doesn't necessarily translate to higher quality steel.
Dude, im just a occasional hobiest, and some high end makers rail on 5160, but i did a ABS 2 week class and a few of us did triple quenching of small 5160 novice blades,(in a controlled oven) i still have one of them unfinished, but it seems harder than the generic knife steels on common pocket knives. I just seems rock hard, without brittleness but i cannot remember if we went up 10 or 15 degrees or down with earch heat.
Is 5160 the steal that vehicle/truck leaf springs are made of? And to be in a ""spring"" state, does it have to be tempered to the blue color of say 1085/1095???
Fascinating. Do you have any thoughts on the so called interrupted quench as used by Amazing KK Daily on his UA-cam channel? Thanks.
Triple quench from the oven with 2 or 3 normalization cycles would probably yield slightly better results than a 2 cycle oven single quench. The differences may only be slight, though.
Fracture grain size is supposed to be done after hardening, no tempering, otherwise you are looking at the steel tearing, and not intergranular fractures... p.69 in Verhoeven "Metallurgy for bladesmiths and other non-technical people" explains the tripple quench as you did it quite well... You use partial recrystallisation to shrink grain size... was fun watching
So, I'm going to mangle the metalurgy horribly. But the stuff on triple quenching made me think of a technique for anealing hyperecutoid steels which involves bringing the steel up to quench temp giving it a bit of a soak, quenching it and then "tempering" it at 600c. which apparently gives you a nice soft steel with fine grain. Because you let everything get into solution and then trap it in fine grain form by transforming it quickly, and then you can turn it back to spheroidised perlite/cementite without ever approaching grain growth temps. Could be a similar thing happening with the triple quench. I will try to find where I found it because it's from credible metallurgists, and I've paraphrased horribly.
Everyone forges and heat treats differently. Me, I wear cut off shorts, rubber rain boots (the better to catch and contain that slag), and a tank top with the nipple areas cut out when I take hammer to hot steel. I like the splotchy mess that is my leg hair after such an endeavor. And, like Alec Steele, I don't use any flux when I forge weld, so the scale is big and gnarly. The smell the burning hair leaves in my shop is just an added bonus.
some info for those who do this stuff. if you grind part way through the other plane, it is easier to break and check grain structure, according metallurgy nick break testing 101. normalization cycles could include a lower temp for more grain refinement. read bladeforums and listen to the pros
Really great video. You shouldn’t bash your results so much though. Seems to me like you put allot of thought and effort into this and maybe some people didn’t need the knowledge but I’m pretty sure most of us here are glad to to have gotten it.
Thank you
I just love how you shut down anything that anyone could bitch about. Good for you. Great video!
I think your grain is to big. Normalize it at quenching temperature 2 times and then 2 or 3 times at little temperature (magnetic red and speed heating)
What kind of fumes does the quenched oil give off? Are they harmful?
Did the oven take the steel to the exact temperature (about 400 degrees) to make it non magnetic? Which is what you were attempting to do in the forge? I mean to also get the steel to about 400 degrees?
Tbh the way the hot steal looks is great for the viewing. You have explained before how it is white hot for you but YT renders it darker.
"crappy monitor" i'll have you know im using a color accurate 144hz ips display
JotaroKujo Pipe down rub-a-dub!
:)
:)
I have a toaster
That makes it even
what % NTSC? huh? HUH!?
What about cryogenic quench I am interest in what it would look like. Not that it is needed for that steel.
So non scientific. . . YT (and half of it's users) must hate you . . . lol
Please forge a chef's knife, or a half tang knife love your videos
basically if you can afford one get an oven to do your heat treating....and use the right recipe
Yo, research is research brother. regardless of the conclusions, someone had to go gather the data
What if you did one oven cycle then quench then forge cycle then quench then oven again for the third quench??
I’m watching in black and white. Looked fine to me.
Make a knife out of canister Damascus with paperclips pls
Interesting exercise. Few questions, (even though i NEVER get an answer to any of them when asking a youtube video producer. So IF YOU CAN ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS YOU WILL BE THE FIRST GUY WHO MAKES VIDEOS, THEN FALLOWS UP AND ANSWERS HIS VIEWERS QUESTIONS!!! Wow thats Amazing! Thats Unheard-of!! AND THAT SHOULD BE THE NORM, NOT THE EXCEPTION!!! People owe it to their viewers to answer their questions.
I DON'T LIKE ALL CAPS AND I OWE NOTHING TO VIEWERS NOT EVEN THE CONTENT I PROVIDE WHY DONT YOU BECOME A SUBSCRIBER AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS
would your results be similar with 1084 steel?
I've made 2 knives from a semi trailer leaf spring now and in both instances I forge normalized twice. The first time letting the blade cool between 2 bricks (what can I say) to slow the cooling process, and the second time by leaving it in the forge after critical as you did and then did my rough grind and tried to drill the pin holes before heat treating and broke the tip off of my center punch and the drill bit wouldn't even touch the thing! I'm assuming I'm working with 5160 as that is probably the most common steel found in leaf springs. I had to reheat the tang on both knives in order to drill my pin holes.. Any thoughts as to why so hard before the quench or tempering?
doesnt sound like 5160.
I like this experiment. It's funny how the results are better using a HT oven and triple quench. When you watch FIF if they quench more than one time the judges are like oh no I forget the reason for there concern. Perhaps it's loss of carbon. Have you tried other high carbon steels in this way? It would be interesting to see how some of the other steels turn out. I have read that a steel you want to triple quench is 52100 because of grain growth and shrinking but have yet to try this steel. Martin
There's some controversial mythology surrounding the triple quench, especially as applied to 5160 and 52100 steel due to the views of a few individual bladesmiths who started promoting the process for these two steels almost 25 years ago. My unprofessionally measured results seem to suggest it resulted in a finer grain pattern in 5160. Is that result repeatable? Don't know. Whether or not triple quenching introduces more stress into the blade seems like a separate issue than grain size, not sure how to measure that. I think a key in all cases is to normalize as close to critical as you can and heat treat with as low a critical temp as possible for most steels. Which means there's really not a great forge-side substitute for tight temperature control in an oven.
At first glance I thought 3:35 said "1. Oven Quench With NO Dramatization"... and I thought, well this is anticlimactic!
The color was wrong and you needed to use a coal forge :) good job :)
you should really make a drill bits canister damascus
So I have no clue what any of this means, I don't so metal work. But I'd say the ones that came out on top were the pictures that were above the triple quench. Cause, you know... They are above it.
Either way, neat video!
I see the maker don't comment on many comments Etc. I am a new subscriber does anyone know if he sells these knives to the public I'm very interested
Inquiries stephen@greenbeetlegear.com
Triple quench is a waste of time.
I wonder how this would affect mild to low cardon steel
Ah but you forgot to do the liquid nitrogen quench
Hi GreenBeetle.
If you polish the steel surfaces to a high mirror polish and etch using a base. You will reveal the grain structure and be able to take more consistent microscopy. It'd make for an interesting followup.
Cheers, Tom
Graet video Beetle just wondering if there's anymore makers Mark videos in the future?
Larry Morales I️ need some willing victims
You and ZNA Productions both are really tough on your vices.
Connor Smith yes but Eli got a new one
Tommy lee stole my weed hahahahaha
What's the difference between normalization and annealing, I was under them impression that they were two words for the same thing.
Samuel Filler anealing softens the steel for things like machining, drilling, grinding. Grain size is pretty large after annealing but internal stresses are relieved. I believe normalization redistributes excess carbon from large carbides such that they exist, esp in hypereutectoid steel and begins shrinking gain size. In some steels it improves austenetic transformation.
"Shitty monitor"?! I'll have you know; nobody has any idea how good or bad my monitor is. It is the Schrödinger's Cat of monitors. It is both at once
This isn’t a closed experiment so the results aren’t as accurate as they could be, BUT you knew that going in and that wasn’t the intention for this video. You did a really good job showing the grain structure under different conditions and it was extremely informative. Thank you very much for this video.
Good video. The results were interesting. Save the samples and see if you can 'borrow' a better scope. I would be inclined to have a closer look at the grain. The triple seems to have a more uniform grain, though.
Very useful !
" with my eyeballs" haha
Mk 1 calibrated eyeball.
The fracture surfaces that you are viewing are not a very good way to view grains. Fracture may occur intergranularly or intragranularly.
To view grains you want to polish the surface of the steel to a mirror finish, like what you do for your knife blades. Then acid etch. The acid will preferentially erode the grain boundaries, and then they can be viewed under a microscope.
Very cool experiment!!! Hard to say what the best results are but from the pictures maybe the single quench??
I feel duped! I went all the way across the room to grab my TI-84P and I didn't even need it for this video!
Im still on my first project, tongs. No idea what im doing. But loved your vid and loved ur commentary lol very funny.
Thanks for the since bro
I would be concerned all that heating will decarbonize the surface of the steel.
Lmao, are you using a failed bike chain damascus scrap as your handle?
yes
TI 84 Plus CE ready for calculations and gettin nerdy!
You are not looking at grain size at the point of fracture. It needs to be micro polished, etched and looked at with a microscope.
I found this interesting
I can’t tell the difference
haha. I do understand what you mean though. I was recording the heat treat of knife I made a couple days ago, and it looked yellow in heat, when it was actually a nice cherry red
How about a cold quench,water then ice water? How about quenching in fluids that have a higher boiling point like ammonia or anti freeze mixed with water?
Poparod Cassidy ammonia does not have a high boiling point
I thought it did,that is why folks sometimes use it as coolant in their PC cooling systems??? I guess I am wrong,you get a cookie! I should have written that ammonia has a lower boiling point to water. Jason hopefully I misspelled something in what I have just written to give you something to look forward to.
What that would do is just destroy whatever you’re quenching. Most, but not all, steels need warm oil, it actually cools it faster. There’s something with a water quench that breaks most steels. Ie adds stress fractures and breaks, some steels like w2 I think need a water quench but even then ice water would just f it up.
5160 will spiderweb all to hell in a water quench. Like the safety glass in your car window. The cooling rate is too rapid.
yea those always broke...
From what I've read is that every time you heat treat you lose some carbon the grain structure does get finer, and the more you do it the more crystals nucleation sites you get i.e. finer grain structure, but you also lose more carbon and therefore strength and hardness.
I didn't understand a single thing in this video, but the pics remind me of the rocks my great aunt used to polish.
Cool to see the difference
Big fan of yours! You are so relaxing and humoristic in your presentations :) I like it. Can I ask which camera you use for your channel?
gh5
Thanks!
7:39 tripple quench? Correct me if im wrong but shouldnt it be triple?
Just do the easiest one
You said you did this with another steel. Presuming 1095.
What were the results?
file knives. triple quench helped grain size but without temp control it was all shoddy. hypereutectoid steels need adequate soak times during their heat treat cycles and precise temps to prevent excessive grain growth during soak which is just not possible in a forge in my opinion. Or at least, I can't do it, personally.
Green Beetle what steel would you recommend for forced air charcoal set up in warm oil?
O1? 1080? 5160?
Basically don't have the ability to "soak"
would love to see you do this same experiment without welding on any of the steel and then compare to the results of this. i think you would get better results without welding reo to it but i could be wrong
Nice video now i have an idea
Go 5 times for 3sek and then compare, youll ne happy
I thought you lost carbon the more times you quench
Casey Bryan lost carbon is only at the surface. the rest supposedly get desolved into the grain structure more and more as you continue to quench. after about three you will have desolved about all you can
Forge meteorite
Good video...,,
Can you forge canister steel Damascus nail clippers?
Very cool 👍
Whats up
Wow. It's amazing how much of a difference it can make.
Hey
wow , ty
Damn it, i need an evenheat...very interesting video, thanks!!
Honestly those grains look large to me.
there's always one. Always someone who makes steel so fine that grains can't be seen in any visible medium.
my crappy monitor is a 4K tv
garbage
That was a hell of a lot of work, thanks for taking it on.
Interesting