John W Loftus: The Outsider Test for Faith
Вставка
- Опубліковано 11 вер 2024
- John W. Loftus is a former Church of Christ minister. Today, he's an atheist, author and activist. He joins Seth Andrews to talk about his journey.
John's website: www.debunkingch...
What a delight to hear from John Loftus. He is one of my favorites. Thanks for the interview, Seth.
Another great person to know who is an atheist. Thanks for the interview Seth i really enjoyed the exchange and will investigate his books etc.
His books are excellent. I have read two of them. I highly reccommend him as an author.
bearw oodcarpentry
I reasoned out of my faith over about 4 years... I felt horrendously guilty as I felt my faith slipping. I felt as if I were a horrible person. I'm still unable to tell most people in my life.
Welcome into the light Mr. McPeeperson Smith. It is quite nice out here where you can breathe easy. Maybe you would enjoy the Atheos App. It teaches people how to talk to theists. It might be useful to brush up on those skills so you can confidentially speak when you do decide to have that discussion.
Welcome to brain freedom. You can think what you want and you can figure out if what you hear is reasonable or just poor thinking.
Fox Mcloud I'm slowly telling people in my life... my family is a no go currently.
Full atheist for the last year. It has been great. The wonders of the science and skeptical thinking is exciting.
@@leviangel97 if you feel guilty, doesn't that mean just that: you're guilty?
Once I realized I no longer had faith, Loftus was one of the first authors I devoured. He helped me make sense of my new position.
How an argument with a creationist works:
Creationist: Bread goes in, toast comes out. you can't explain that.
Atheist: ...
If only...I think it's closer to:
Bread goes in to the toaster, and we know that what comes out is designed by God. Now. what these atheist, evolutionists try and claim is that they understand exactly how a toaster works; they talk about electricity, and point to studies about heating elements making bread brown and crispy...
But you can't take them seriously, they don't believe in god, they think they're smarter than him, they're not moral when they teach kids this nonsense.
And why would we listen to these secular, atheist scientists when they talk about bread and toast, when they can't even tell you how we first got wheat on earth, they don't know anything. They just want to deny the Bible, it says right there in Genesis....
@ 6:27 "If it ain't broken, don't fix it." I lost my faith after a pastor told my wife to divorce me. I read the relevant bible passages on divorce in the New Testament and he argued that there were things that trumped scripture. That's what it took for me to question my faith and become an atheist.
My parents still think I lost my faith "because of the divorce". Like John said, it usually takes a crisis to even question your faith. It's sad that this is true, because my parents have always and probably will always dismiss what I say because they think it's due to "hating God" over this crisis I had. Without a crisis, why bother fixing belief? Even if it seems stupid to believe, it's fine as long as life is fine...
Sorry to hear about your divorce - seriously. I don't know the details or need to - but if that pastor abused his authority, that would be a terrible reason for you to throw away something that could be True. Truth remains true no matter the abuse others may do. So if you believed that God really exists then why stop believing?? What this pastor or your wife may have done doesn't change the reality of the existence of God - AND His grand purpose for our lives.
+Terry Baldwin I always enjoy the, "You're doing Christianity wrong" crowd.
As their deity is unwilling or unable to clear up the countless points of confusion and/or division, they anoint themselves God's warriors and rush to defend him...in a comment section.
Awesome.
Terry Baldwin
I didn't "throw away something that could be True". My "crisis", as John put it in this video, is what caused me to question my beliefs, and after putting them to the test I found them to be false. My divorce was a catalyst for doubt, not my reason for rejection.
Kazprzak - Thanks for responding. If you don't mind me asking, what test did you put to your faith that failed you? What was false about the faith you left?
I don't know about Supernova; but I found everything about Christianity to be false. Christians believe an entity created humans, those humans didn't do as he ordered them to do. So he sent himself to earth, had himself tortured, and killed to appease himself and save mankind from himself. Wow talk about idiocy. To top it off this entity was supposed to be all powerful. But he was not powerful enough to simply forgive the human race.
Loftus was the first atheist I read. I lost my faith in the seminary library where I was studying for my Master of Divinity. It was initially the realization that there was no real difference among god beliefs in the ancient Near East. In realizing that Yahweh was simply the tribal god of the Israelites, meaning the Bible was purely manmade, not divinely revealed, I experienced a FLOOD of realizations about the many, many ways in which the Bible does not make sense. Wandering around the library after that, I happened upon the atheist section and was intrigued by a book by a former apologist who rejected Christianity. (Satan was clearly guiding my steps!) Loftus confirmed everything I had realized about the Bible and showed me things I had not thought of yet. I needed that book at that time, and I'm grateful to John for writing it.
John Loftus is one of my favorites. I love listening to him.
I enjoyed this interview immensely! There was discussion of "community" in reference to the fact that many of those who come to the conclusion that there is no god and leave religion and their church "family" often feel a deep loss of community. My only criticism is that I was disappointed that Seth Andrews and John Loftus did not mention the fact that there are many secular meetups, organizatons and local chapters who do a good job of providing a sense of community and interaction with like-minded individuals for those who feel that was one thing they were lacking. These same secular groups also get involved in doing acts of charity, kindness, environmental involvement and trying to leave the world a bit better than they found it. There was mention of movie meetups and Moose Lodges (which is a bad example since that organization requires the members to espouse a belief in a Supreme Being and have prayer rituals such as their famous daily 9 O'Clock prayer ritual), golfing community, pool groups, etc., but not one mention of secular communities and meetup groups. This surprised me since both of you gentlemen have been involved with secular groups, meetups and communities. Your listeners need to know that one does not need to feel isolation when they leave their religion and their church, especially for those who have recently left religion. Those leaving religion need to know that their are secular groups who do meet that very human need for community. I love the work that both of you do! Having come from a religious background myself I could relate to most of this interview.
I wanted to truly know and understand, the "faith" thing was not enough. There is no way religion can survive that attitude very long, even for an idiot like me.
Or me, lol!
+zenman5910 if that's the case, you should your profile name seeing that that's a religious reference?
@@apostolicwatchman8824 No. You should try to understand rather than parrot and regurgitate what you hear.
@@zenman5910 how am I parroting anything. I was making a point based on your profile name. You said, "there is no way religion can survive that attitude". Your profile name is making a reference to religion. If you don't believe in religion why do you have a name like Zenman5910?
@@apostolicwatchman8824 Zen is a philosophy, its not a religion. It does have fictional fables to illustrate bigger points that are difficult to make directly, but it is completely acceptable to be an atheist or a Christian and practice zen as they're entirely different unrelated things.
That was a fun interview! Good interview. Keep it up Seth!!
I have no respect for denial of scientific facts. The universe is glorious enough for me, without a sky daddy.
In my experience most people believe for emotional reasons and fear.
I've had a few long chats with my father in law who is a Lutheran Pastor and what I walked away with was that his belief is irrational he told me that himself, he also told me that it doesn't have to make sense before he believes it and the reason why he believes is because he's emotionally attached.
He also can't stand the thought of not seeing all his loved ones after death, and can't see how life would have any meaning if we just die and that's it.
TL- can't be bothered reading all this bluster? Understandible its boring.
In summary the old dude, father -in-law is smart. He can get new chick as the eathly marriage will be erased.
Matt22:23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question.
24 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him.
25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother.
26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh.
27 Finally, the woman died.
28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
Matt 22:30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
If you go along with the Wholly Fable.
I love the paert where John says...you can't reason someone out of something they were never reasoned into. and yes SETH.. you were an angry antheist in the begging. it's 2019 now and you have mellowed out for sure!!!
Why is it that a crisis that brings you to Jaysus is perfectly acceptable to these yoyos, but a crisis that takes you away from Jaysus is the Devil at work? A crisis merely makes one re-examine one's assumptions. A belief for sound reasons should not fear a crisis. Believing because you are scared is not a sound reason.
Thanks Seth. I really appreciate all of your hard work mate. Greetings from Australia.
Hello Graham from from Australia we here in the US have one of your creationists jesus freaks please come get him & take him home his nameis Ken Ham
Americans have only themselves to blame for Kem Ham. He just moved to where the stupid sells best.
+VideoAudioDisco09 Interesting would love to know more. It's been on my mind as to how he came to be here in the US.
@@scotted3140
Ham grabbing a pork barrel opportunity.
@@jimmaughan1898
Even convict colonials have _some_ standards.
It's never made sense to me why Jesus Christ *"had to die"* for humanity to *"be saved."*
Spanning the globe to bring you the constant variety of deconversion, this is Seth Andrews' Wide World of Atheism!
[sorry, Seth, couldn't resist!]
You all just want to sin! You really do believe! You are just rebellious! God, that tasted bad saying that. Never believed, never raised to. Thanks for the great interview, Seth.
You should have just kept up the poe.
you theists "sin" far more then us atheist.... this is a fact..... but I know you and your sky wizard hate facts
Hone your sarcasm detection sensors. They seem to be dull. This is meant for Floridapate 1
How exactly would an Atheist "sin"? I haven't "sinned" since I gave up belief in an imaginary friend. This is also meant for Floridapate1.
Seth......the Indy 500 occurs on Sunday. Assuming John still lives in Angola he has 2-3 hour drive to Indy, getting through traffic, getting parked, getting to your seats.....the better part of your morning and no time for church
Seth your production skills really show on your videos. A different league to most of UA-cam!
I am naturally skeptical . I realized that its an impossibility for me to be anything else . Also , that I never really believed because of that skepticism . I wanted that sense of security and belonging that so many believers claim they have . Had I been more skeptical of that I might not have became a wannabeliever. Wanting to believe is not the same as believing .
Great interview! I couldn't help but notice that this man has no eyebrows! Irrelevant, but noteworthy.
I very much enjoyed the chance to meet John Loftus on that day as well at the Reason Rally. Hopefully I'll meet Seth before too long!
thank you Seth, great interview.
For someone to choose something there must be two options therefore if a Christian says you choose not to believe in god, then they must also say that they, "chose to believe in god" they cannot simply say "I believe in god".
Now, stop and think about this.
"Believing in God" is not the same as
"Choosing to believe in God"
Such a fun interview! Thank You Seth!
Another good one Seath
Interesting interview. Just ordered his book The Outsider Test for Faith
Great discussion!
30:33 I burst out laughing. Wasn't expecting that 😂
I think the next episode should be about how the modern day politically correct culture (sjws, third wave feminism, cultural Marxism, white guilt, privilege, denial of evolutionary psychology and sexual dimorphism, obsession with censorship, broadening the defenition of rape into practically normal intercourse, the denial of radical islam) has become parallel to behavior of that of the religious dogma, especially on college campuses
Or, maybe it can be about how people like to lump together all the problems of the world, and then act like the world has gone to hell in the proverbial handbasket. 🙄
Excellent! Thanks!
I really enjoy listening to John Loftus. I need to read his books.
I liked the Dale Mcgowan quote stating that "believers would rather believe than know" or something like that. I was interested in knowing the source of that quote. Googled for it and searched my kindle version of 'Atheism for Dummies' but I cannot find it. Anyone know where it is from?
EDIT: I did find where E.O. Wilson said: 'People would rather believe than know.'
People like Dan Barker and Loftus ministers of the faith made me an atheist.
Thanks Seath for another good one i can relate to a lot of what was said.
As Christian back in the day, I never could understand when people would argue over the music (electric guitars vs. acoustic guitars vs. no guitars), decorations, seating, etc. Your god is so big and you sing about this yet you will hold grudges against people over such little details. I remember a clown (yes, literally a clown) visited our church and performed as a replacement for the pastor not being there one Sunday service. Such ridiculousness. I don't know why it took so long to reject the bible and the goofiness of it.
From just after 29:00, it got me thinking, "hate the delusion, love the delusional"?
I know it was controversial when Christopher Hitchens said "hate the sin, love the sinner" was one of the most malevolent preachments of the NT. In context, he said we should not love those who are the enemy of freedom or justice or equality, specifically the Islamic extremists who would wages Jihad against the West. I am quite swayed by that view, and do believe it is reasonable to hate and despise those who are so contemptible to humanity.
+Phelan You may somewhat be missing the point. Usually "hate the sin, love the sinner" is spoken in a way to emphasize forgiveness of the sins with respect to the individual. Hitchens argued that we should not be forgiving or tolerant of wickedness, because it is a tacit acceptance of that behavior. Who says "well I see where the murderous individual is coming from and I forgive them"? I want no complicity in the actions of terrorists by tolerating their extremist beliefs which are a direct threat to humanity.
+continuumadinfinitum adinfinitumcontinuum I don't believe he is missing the point, at all. The problem with the phrase, hate the sin, love the sinner, is that it has become cliché. It is said too quickly, and too glibly. It is written too quickly. It makes people feel good about themselves.
+ Phelan. You don't have to pity them or want to help them. You do what you do for reason first and foremost. We all struggle with it, it's hard not to considering the personal attacks they launch on us just because we're atheists.
My version of "hate the delusion, not the delusional" is " the faith is stupid, not the faithful" , mainly because I burr up and get unreasonable when they call me stupid or lying or whatever. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.
Phelan I hear you, Phelan - really. Just don't argue with them like you think they're stupid, as hard as it is to resist it sometimes. You'll just get their back up and they won't hear a word you're saying.
Mind you, I've been accused of using "big words" to make the theist look stupid too, when I didn't think I was using big words. Sometimes you just can't win! :-)
Great interview!
Mr. Loftus.
I'd like to share MY philosophy of life with you. It is this:
"Do no harm--but take no shit!"
yes. just yes.
trust is the initial component in conversion as it is in things requiring faith
Its guilt and loyalty that keep you there
Good talk. ...Thanx Mate!
The inverse relationship between reason and religion strikes again.
I love his accent
So if community is the answer - lets be a non religious community. Create imagery akin to the Jesus with his arms out - only it's a real person, maybe a small group of various people with their arms out to show a welcoming to their community!
I didn't realize John was from Indiana, much less that he had been in Angola (and might still be, I didn't hear anything about that). I wonder if he ever comes to Fort Wayne to speak? If he does I'd make time to go listen.
I live in Ft. Wayne and am a member of the Humanist group. Look us up!
Why I might just do that.
Near the end, Mr. Loftus mentioned Dr. Peter Boghossian so he should be quite familiar with the technique of Street Epistemology. Loftus should have provided some specific information about SE. SE does not rely on debate, argument or ridicule. No effort is made to talk someone else out of their faith. SE consists of open inquiry as a way to prompt the interlocutor to discover why they believe what they believe.
He also stated, pretty clearly, that individual conversion is not his forte, but he prefers reaching people en masse.
31:13
Following a direct question about a specific method that is highly effective when engaging with the faithful, the value and usefulness of Dr. Boghossian's Street Epistemology cannot be overstated. SE has even made a few Christian apologists nervous.
I know Craig has said that he won't debate Loftus, but I would love to see a debate dealing with Loftus' Outsider Test. Does Christianity make sense from on outsider's perspective? Or Something like that. This really is the crux of how to eliminate faith-based thinking. No one has any problem recognizing how stupid it is to believe in someone else's faith. Christians can see the problems with believing that Joseph Smith saw a heavenly vision or Mohammed seeing a heavenly vision, but they swallow Paul's story hook line and sinker.
In trying to replace religion with "something else" everyone needs to be very careful. While the community that church provides is important, the tribalism as its root is also one of the things that is most troubling about religion. It's the thing that allows a group to otherize a different group. There are good aspects of tribalism, like the way most churches will go out of their way to buy groceries for someone in need, but this coin has a different side also. Tribalism, community if you will, is good when it's turned inward but awful when it's turned out towards others. A tribe of chimps will murder a chimp from another tribe if they find him out alone. It's very dangerous to try and replicate what happens in a church community without recognizing that there are two sides.
Thanks No Way! I too would like such a debate!
VideoAudioDisco09 I agree. I don't think that it needs to be replaced with anything. I think people should outgrow the tribes and that some notion that people are "spiritual" to use Sam Harris' word, is just silly. Religion is a cancer, exactly. People need to outgrow it.
@ No Way John Loftus has debated the likes of John Wood and Dinesh D'souza. Loftus was demolished - both are on youtube.
@John W. Loftus you have lost every debate you have ever been in.
Another good one Seth... keep it up! :)
Someone posted this interview on an ex Church of Christ FB group I belong to. Very interesting. You make some excellent points for sure.
The irony is, that outside of belief in God, the Hebrew and Christian Bibles support most of his ideology (the value of rational thought, cur-tailing religion, separation of Church and state, living in community, actively seeking out ways to serve one another etc). However, like many atheists, he doesn't appear to recognize this, let alone understand where these books say this, let alone why.
For a guy that is supposedly a biblical 'scholar', his understanding of the Bible doesn't appear to extend past literal, superficial religious dogma. That's not very interesting.
+R Stone yet, that's what most churches deal with, and it is certainly the basis of most televangelism: literal, superficial, religious dogma.
Religions lost their most convincing argument when they lost the right to burn us at the stake.
Here are some questions you might ask yourself. How many religions were taught to you as a child? How Many Religions were taught to your parents as a child? Did your faith come from your parents? Did your parents faith come from their parents? If you had been adopted when you were a baby by a Jewish family what would be your religion today? Is It True That Faith is the opposite of rational thinking?
Just because something is taught or learned behavior doesn't make it untrue! The genesis of a belief, how someone came to believe, doesn't say anything about the merits of said belief. That's a logical fallacy. Where a persons born also has no bearings on truth! A person in Oxford England is more likely to believe in evolution then say someone in Oxford Mississippi , or a person in New York is more likely to believe in general relativity then say someone in Papua New Guinea. So what does that say about the truth of general relativity and evolution, absolutely nothing! By your logic we should abandoned those things too because they are taught/learned and geography may not be on their side either. Truth is what corresponds with reality no matter where you live or what you are taught!
Science and the scientific method is universal and consistent all over the World whereas religion is regional and a person’s religious conviction, no matter how deeply held, is clearly nothing more than an accident of birth
The difference is science is based on facts found in reality, religion on the other hand is based on the supernatural, ghost, talking snakes and donkeys.
I have John’s book, “Why I Became and Atheist”, in it he never mentions his two children, Joel and Sarah. I talked to several other people who know John well, yet none of them knew he has two children by his first wife Kathy. Why have his two children been deleted from John’s life? Maybe they know the real John Loftus better than the image he projects.
Why do you care? Sounds like an ad hominem. His relationship with his wife and kids say nothing about if he is correct or not. I hate to hold you by the comments of people who know you. I think you would find it unfair.
I am so sorry for this, poor guy
His book the Christian Delusion is a masterpiece...
Also , from the biblical narrative in genesis " that the wages of " Sin is Death " from the mythic sin and fall of Adam and Eve who ate the apple ! And this Jesus, supposedly died ( and subsequently revived three days later ) as a Ransome for all of our Sins ! Well, if this was and is so , why are we humans still dying for these sins that allegedly Jesus died for ??
Yeah, the outsider idea is a pretty good argument. If a believer comes up to someone who tells you a bunch of unrealistic and crazy stories that totally conflict with reality, then why in the world would you believe?
When I was a child, my dad and brother were at home when I came back from school. They both told me that Mt. Rainier had just flown away because aliens had been living in it and it was a space ship.
I totally believed them. I remember how shocked I was. Doubting them never even entered my mind!
They quickly realized that I was a total sucker, because I was 10 years old, and I'd believe something that conflicted with reality. So they told me it was a joke.
As adults, when we tell kids this bullshit about religion, we are taking unfair advantage of their trust in us.
Made me laugh my asss off. How can anyone who thinks critically and with logic ever fall for the bullshit thrown by religious people. It is much more credible that the whole story presented in the canonical gospels of matt, mark, luke, and john were nothing more than a satire of the Jewish-Roman wars written by the Josephus and the educated elite of Rome.
There are dark spots where we don't think critically. Especially if you are scared or if everybody around you believes. Francis Collings is head of the human genome project and also self proclaimed 'serious christian'.
On a debate forum I frequent, there's this guy who posits (quite frequently) that the teachings of Jesus regarding pay unto Caesar what is Caesar's were actually plants by the Roman government, a way to get the Jews to pay Roman taxes to Caesar, the Roman emperor, who was considered a god.
+ Mike Repucci. Critical thinking and logic don't come into it. Most of the faithful imbibed it with their mother's milk. They're born into it.
This is right back to the garden of Eden. You are now your own God. You decide right from wrong. You decide what is good or evil. The way man justifies himself against God is endless. The ultimate question is how was the creation created out of nothing? For matter must come from matter. That is logical. More impotantly, if this man is accurate you have gambled your eternal soul on his walk of life. Indeed...some for glory some for destruction... And the creation, which displays the majesty of Jesus, leaves every man without excuse.
Even if we never find the answer to your question, - how was matter created?
That gets us no closer to a deity and then we are faced with the problem of which deity, because they all claim to be the creator.
So I don’t think that is a useful piece of reasoning Shari.
how about you gambling Shari that every other religion's hell is waiting for YOU?
I'd like to think that John heard some of George Carlin on religion. 😊
Voting for Bernie? That’s surprising to me for a thinking person to vote for a candidate like him, or other of the Democrats in the modern-day lineup.
It's impromptu. Comes from words 'imp', 'rom' [read only memory], 'p' [pee] and 'tu' [thank you]. You are welcome.
Jaded.
Indeed, sorry. 😔
Why does he always wear a cowboy hat?
why dont you always wear one?
Thank you John W . I never liked that jesus story , always left a bad taste in my mouth .
I hate to be 'that guy':
0:21 imromptu => impromptu
Back to the video..
I like to do things imromptu too, whatever that means. =P
0:20 "impromptu"
isn't it a genetic fallacy to say "oh you were just raised that way"?
when someone raises you it changes your genetics???????!!!!?
@@SNORKYMEDIA No. Please look up Genetic Fallacy.
It has nothing to do with biology. It just uses "genetic" in the name.
John, I love ya man but you gotta take off your sunglasses once in a while. The racoon look is just not "in" right now.
John W. Loftus who has a perfect debating record - he never wins.
You two were brought up with a poor picture of Christianity. Mr. Loftus is supposed to have three degrees in religion? I've read some of Mr. Loftus's blogs. I find them empty and unconvincing. I'd like to read a book or two when I have time. I'm a devout Christian and I agree with the many negative pictures he paints about many Christians and denominations, but ... oh my, dude, each of your arguments is a strawman. How in the heck did you graduate with degrees in religion? Christians acting in non-Christian ways show only that they're not practicing their belief, not that their belief is wrong. Disagreements between denominations doesn't me theism is wrong. Your logic is pitiful. Let's have a beer , a cigar, and a good long talk.
I was paying attention to everything that the guest was saying here and, my conclusion (on short), is that the whole time he was actually trying just to promote his own books.
This guy doesn't even know anything about God. No one (no person, no church) can save you, it is God who does the choosing. This guy would be a living example of that.
10:21 Why would he require it?? From sin comes death. He declared that death is the result of sin. Why would he not require it?? That is like sunday school understanding.
And do _you_ "know anything about God"? If so, how? I've heard lots and lots of claims - contradictory claims, since even Christians can't seem to agree about anything - but never anything backing them up.
It's always just claims. And again, given that believers can't agree about anything, what makes _your_ claims valid and all of those other claims invalid?
PS. If an all-powerful god wanted to forgive people (for being the way he created us, apparently), why couldn't he just do it? Why did he need blood magic? Why did he need to torture to death a scapegoat? That's primitive superstition at best.
Why would he _not_ require it? If that's all you got from Sunday School ("sunday school understanding"), it doesn't seem to have been a useful way to spend your time. Or maybe I just don't understand what you're trying to say there.
??😂😂😂😂😂
Slow your roll duppy conqueror!!
If you want to converse we can do it one question at a time.
Bungalo Bill
Actually, no. "Conversing" requires a back-and-forth. Your ignoring my questions does not make a conversation.
But don't worry, I'm used to it. Christians almost always run away when they're asked questions.
You basically made rather incoherent statements, rather than asking concise coherent questions.
What is your first question. One question at a time. And please make your question in the form of a question.
No one answers your questions you stated. Do you maybe think there is a problem with the way they are being asked??
Because God made you for a reason, he also decided when you would be born and how long you would live. He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death. The Bible says, "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]
If someone is having open heart surgery and the family and friends are all praying that he will live through the surgery,,, they are just wasting their time because if "god" decides to let this person die on the operating table that's it he dies. OK then let's say there is a serial killer and he has murdered 100 people this was also god's will because "god" has the final say on rather those 100 people lived or died. Finely all the fetuses that are aborted at abortion clinics all died because it was "god's" will.?
*re:* "Because God made you...".
What evidence do you posit to substantiate that claim?
+Michael Jones it's demonstrating that omniscience and free will are contradictory.
sonicpsycho13
yup. How 'free' is freewill when one did not ask for it, but had it imposed?
R Stone
Technically speaking, the bible is bullshit. ; )
Here is the oldest Complete bible in existence today of the New Testament written in the fourth century. Note that in Mark chapter 16 That it only goes to verse eight now look at your version of the bible and you can clearly see that your bible has been altered from This original scripture.
codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=34&chapter=16&lid=en&side=r&verse=8&zoomSlider=0
Here are some additional bibles of the New Testament That also stop at verse eight.
"Codex Vaticanus" written in the fourth century
"Miniscule 304" written in the 12th century
At times, I find out about people like this and find it interesting to review their assertions and see what could affect one’s rationales or faith in God. If I understand the reasons for his atheism, it’s (1) that professing Christians and the Church let him down/abandoned him and (2) the Bible in his mind is completely debunked. As to (1), everyone can be a Peter. Anyone can stab you in the back and let you go to your death. However, this does not disprove God. Rather, it only proves man can and will perform evil acts.
As to (2), fixed adherence to any interpretation is potentially problematic since like science, who can know every possible future historical finding and every possible viable interpretation that will ever exist? For instance, how many assertions of science have been debunked because seeming valid facts were misinterpreted? While there are analyses which discuss how Biblical
text is completely compatible with all current findings of science and even the full evolution of the species, human interpretation does not disprove God.
This person just recognized he was living a lie. Indeed, human rationale is not faith and like emotion, is subject to change or delusion. From a Christian perspective, it would appear that God saw this to be the case and allowed certain situations to occur which demonstrated there was indeed no faith but rather that the entire relationship was based on human rationale. Having a spiritual relationship based solely on human rationale is like having a human relation based solely on sexual pleasure. It may seem to be a wonderful thing for a while but such a relationship will never last without transitioning to something deeper.
Actually, this guy "lost his faith" because he was addicted to porn while married and eventually began a relationship with a stripper. Then, he blamed the Church for not solving his problems for him.
Wow, please site your sources.
His own fantasies, David Roberts.
Ah, isn't it always the way. The person who falls away from right thinking can never be allowed to have done it for reasons which are intellectually pure; Satan doesn't work that way, so it always become a moral failure. Whether it is there or not. Darwin recanted on his deathbed, whether he did or not; hell, I've heard that Chris Hitchens did it. Come, bring your proof, otherwise simply be a decent human and shut up.
Not THAT old chestnut. The myth of Darwin recanting was made up by some mad fanatic and vigorously denied by his family.
He could have added a couple hundred wives, countless concubines (sex slave), married his sister, raped some virgins, had drunken sex with his daughters, and he'd be just like the patriarchs of the Bible. All while escaping the Mosaic penalties of death, due to his status as a theocrat for Yahweh.
Psalms:14:1: The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Sad that Loftus has chosen to accept Satan's lie.
wow a lot of claims there and some quotes from an old book
Wow! To make the claim that there is no God all because people can't get along, or argue over wall or hymnal color is the flimsiest evidence against God I have ever heard. What people do or don't do has nothing to do with who God is - it just shows that people have issues and does not reflect on Truth. Nor are these "testimonies" of bad behaviors the sum of Christianity. It is a minute segment of those professing faith.
Way to miss the entire point. That is really what you got from this? Is this the first video about atheism you've ever watched? That is certainly NOT the only reason he was able to break free of religion and realize his beliefs are batshit silly.
The point about them not even being able to agree and splitting on wall colors shines light on so many other issues. The point it going over your head. You need more research into this subject to understand.
Sorry, Terry, it's more than a minute amount of Christians. That's part of the problem.
Terry, it's not that we declare "there is no God". It's that there is no objective evidence. No evidence that stands up to critical thinking. Darwin set out to show the works of God, but soon found evidence that God need not be an ingredient for things to work. There was a lack of evidence to show God's work in our evolution.
Not accepting someone's assertion that there is a god is not a claim. The person who believes in the god is the one making the claim (there is a god). The burden of proof is therefore not with the person rejecting the claim but rather with the person making it. Prove there's a god and we can talk.
Or do you think that just making the claim that Thor is real is good enough?