[UNBANNED] A SCANDALOUS Theory about Horowitz's peculiar Piano Playing Technique
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- Опубліковано 24 лис 2023
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UPD This video intentionally stirs controversy, and I admit that I underestimated differences in the perception of people with various backgrounds so much that I banned the video at some point. But many people then asked me to unban it because the video nevertheless fulfills its main purpose: many people at least start thinking about what kind of technique will allow them to enjoy piano playing without injury as a life-long passion.
I admit that I had to elaborate on some issues in a more meticulous way. I am thankful to everyone who takes the time to elaborate on counterarguments and suggests dozens of alternative theories about the bizarre technical style of Vladimir Horowitz.
While accepting that the argumentation in the video might not be bulletproof, I nevertheless open myself to judgment for the sake of igniting fruitful discussions. I aim to challenge the untouchable holy-cow status that musicians gain when they become very famous (although I have no problem admitting that Horowitz was better than me). I hope to start a trend of a critical attitude and open discussions towards both enigmatically significant musicians like Vladimir Horowitz and provocative videos like this one.
Although I admire Vladimir Horowitz as an artist and musician, I will take a risk of offering a controversial theory about the efficiency, safety, and sustainability of his approach to piano playing. I claim that this technique might be dangerous for most piano learners.
If you feel offended by an attempt to analyze Horowitz’s technique simply because he is 'The Great Horowitz' ('how dare you!' - © Greta), and to separate his artistic output from the technical equipment he possessed as a piano player, please don’t watch this video. I warned you 😇
I don’t pretend to be absolutely right, but I have my concerns and arguments explained in the video. Let me know in the comments what you think. Despite the 'hot' topic caused by great admiration that many of us feel for one of the greatest artists of the last century, I invite you to be respectful in the comments. This video is not about interpretations or Horowitz’s value as an artist, focusing solely on sustainability of a particular technical approach.
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I learnt from a teacher who learnt from Horowitz’s sister. Tension, co contraction at its most extreme, and very low wrists were the mandate. The outcome? A number of students developing dystonia.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Many of Leon Fleisher's students also developed dystonias.
@@alanfraser2948 that doesn't really surprise me, although it is sad. When it comes to the titans (Horowitz, Richter, Gould etc) I love them as much as the next person, but idolising them beyond first analysis is not a good idea if you, yourself are a training pianist.
a pupil of Regina? did he also teach Romanovsky? for starters I might be actually learning with one of your teacher’s pupils. Samoshko, the 1999 Queen Elisabeth Prize, does he ring any bell? but then I'm pretty confident I won't develop dystonia because of that teacher, although I have a tendency to have low wrists - still not at the rate observable in Horowitz's playing, Ugorski's playing... Fleischer? I only know one internationally acclaimed pianist who studied with him over the years, albeit Fleisher wasn't his first teacher: Ariel Lanyi, 25 yo Israeli pianist. He seems to have a very balanced technique, dare I say one of the very best - otherwise he wouldn't play Beethoven like he does.
No, @@schnabelite Romanovsky learnt from Magarius (who taught at the same school in Kharkov years ago). My teacher was Makarov. As I understand, Magarius and Makarov were pretty much enemies. Makarov in any case was an over-hyped simpleton who has spent the last 15 years in jail. He did, though, have a number of very, very good students.
@@alanfraser2948 A little knowledge? How do you know the poster has "a little knowledge"? How much of his knowledge do you expect him/her to write in a UA-cam comment in order to make a single point?
I played the Horowitz piano when Franz Mohr toured with it in 1990 (the piano by then was own by Steinway), the year after Horowitz's death. What Denis Zhdanov says about the action is absolutely true. I have never played a piano with an action that light (I started lessons when I was 5; I'm 81 now, so I've been doing this for a while with some wonderful teachers, including Martin Canin and Mme. Rosina Lhevinne). I have also never played a piano voiced so brightly. It sounded like the hammers were glass. That muscular sound that Horowitz made in the bass? I made the same sound. It was the piano, not him, not me.
Interestingly, I played the F-major Etude (10/8) in my session with his piano. At the time, I could not get through the piece on my own piano, a Mason and Hamlin BB, because of tension in my own technique that I have worked to eliminate over the years (I still have that same piano and at 81, I can play that Etude at a respectable tempo without tiring). But even with my deficient technique at the time, I easily got through it on the Horowitz piano.
The action was so light I described the keys to others as switches, on or off. I had a very difficult time controlling the dynamics with such an action. It is incredible to me that Horowitz was able to draw such colors from a piano set up this way.
I played the Horowitz piano again in 2003. Steinway had completely redone the action and voicing, turning it into an ordinary Model D and in the process, destroyed a historical document. I don't understand what possessed them to do this.
Interesting! What a fantastic opportunity you had! Thank you for sharing.
🥺
I’ve both played the Chopin F major Etude here and I’m a piano technician. I believe Horowitz’s piano had a 45g down-weight and 30g up-weight. Most people could not even control an action this light. Additionally, the high upweight meant the key virtually sticks to the fingers on the way up. Additionally, very bright voicing gives the feeling of an even lighter action. So yes, I’m not a fan of his technique, but his piano was conditioned to accommodate his style very well in a way that I doubt any other piano could without thorough action adjustment.
But at the end of the story it is all about the talent, the will and the immagination. Exploringn the ideas all the time in real time and not playing like a robot. Nobody can teach you that, it is internal and intimate realtaion between the piece and the performer. Techique is emerging thing but not the extrrnal tool.
The music, the sound, comes out from something and not the oposite. We can not study the mind od the performer, still all the magic comes from there.
I love Horowitz above all other pianists, but I have no problem admitting that some of his interpretations are very problematic and that in some respects his technique was not the best. But what the heck! That miraculous sonority, from the most tender poetry to the most fiendishly electrifying crash chords, leaves most of his fellow pianists looking tame and bland.
Excellent video, very revealing and extremely interesting.
Actually his technique was indeed the best - you have to figure out how to understand it.
Does it bother you that sometimes those fiendishly electrifying crash chords were actually not written in the scores he played, but added by Horowitz himself? That bothers me enormously, especially when he does it not just once in a special moment, but time after time within the same piece.
You admit that some of his interpretation are very problematic, but what the heck? That to me is very bothersome, as the interpretations can sometimes distort the music considerably away from what is written in the score.
I think I prefer tame, bland pianists who can give an expressive performance of a piece while staying true to what the composer actually wrote.
I remember having a debate of sorts on such matters with someone in UA-cam comments somewhere, and I happened to comment that I liked Ruth Laredo's performance of Scriabin's piano sonatas above all others, and the response was that it was too tame and bland (words to that effect, anyway - I forget the exact way it was worded). But to me, an accurate performance that still manages to be expressive is to me far more exciting than a self-indulgent performance that willfully makes alterations whenever the performer feels like it, often in the form of adding crashing chords that the composer did not write as chords, and in general makes the performance about the peformer himself rather than the composer and his music.
@@alanfraser2948
Nonsense. Playing with tension is bad technique.
of course playing with tension is bad technique, but playing with a certain elasticity is good technique, and you need to be able to tell the difference!
@@MJE112358132134As Mahler is supposed to have said: ”Das Beste in der Musik steht nicht in den Noten.” Horowitz had a keen eye and ear for what was not written in the score, and if he (like so many renowned pianists) reversed the dynamics on occasions it was because he thought what was written didn’t work with the overall conception of the phrase or work.
It’s interesting to see how bench position affects how one perceives the piano keys. Once I went to a friend’s house to play his piano, and we both thought that piano was heavy. A few weeks after and I visited again. I found myself playing effortlessly on that piano. We spent a long time thinking about what has been changed. I asked if he had regulated his piano. The truth was that he just heightened his bench a bit, and that made a world of difference.
Yeah! Same thing for me!
Thank you for your explanation Denis! I read three biographies about Horowitz. In the Plaskin biography Horowitz explains he could not play some of the Chopin etudes on modern pianos, as their touch was too heavy. Besides that Horowitz had large hands with long thin fingers.
Indeed he had long periodes he did not perform in public, and used drugs on doctors advice. However I was very surprised to watch him playing pieces like Etincelles by Moszkofski very fluently, as well as soirees the Vienna by Liszt. So on his old age he still had this wonderful technique. Indeed his piano keys were modified to 44 grams. And that helps a lot too. After Horowitz' death his wife Wanda did send his piano around the world and it landed in a piano shop in Amsterdam, and I was able to play on it. Indeed the touch was very light but I had to get accustomed to it...But he still remains one of my favourite pianists, along with Cherkassky and De Larrocha.
Thank you, I love how you explain everything, and watching you demonstrating what you are talking about is so helpful! I love Horowitz, and your analysis reveals how powerful his musical instincts and mechanical gifts were, in spite of his limited understanding of physically safe playing.
If you watch the video of his Mozart A major concerto in Milan, 1987, you can see that he has what looks to me like dystonia by then. His fourth and fifth finger are curled in and he has to really push to throw them out in order to use them. Regarding his breaks from playing, I've always suspected repetitive strain injury was a factor in this, and was probably a factor in his need for pain killers.
His technique was very much based on an old-fashioned school of playing as described by Czerny for example. There are bits of that school which are good and bits that are not so good as you highlight here. The light action of the pianos could just be that he preferred that, and if you consider that old Blüthners and Bechsteins, and possibly old Berdux pianos in Russia had a much shallower key dip even than today, that technique isn't going to be *as much* of a problem as it is on the New York Steinway of the mid-20th Century. This is probably why his piano was so modified.
The other thing as you will know Denis, that in conservatoires for the longest time, technique was regarded as something that just happens in order to serve the music. I was very very lucky in that my first teacher studied with Tobias Matthay, so I had a finished technique before going to conservatoire. However, at the conservatoire, later the teachers kept misquoting Matthay at me saying "Matthay said it doesn't matter whether you play the key with your finger or a pencil". Well, in the context they were mis-using that quote it showed an alarming ignorance as to what he was actually trying to say. Looking back and watching videos of professors from the conservatories I attended (Royal College of Music and Royal Conservatoire of Scotland) I do see varying versions of inefficient technique. Teachers are very scared to even touch on the subject of technique using the tag line that the study of technique can make playing too mechanical. I disagree. Look at ballet dancers for example. If Nureyev is Horowitz, Baryshnikov is Argerich
Thanks for a profound comment, I do value Matthay’s books much
With the 5th finger curled in in particular, there are a couple of things I recall. One was likely from a biography of his and Horowitz said that nobody taught him how to do that and he learned it himself. Then there was a reproduction of an Etude magazine article on an old Horowitz fan website with photographs and Horowitz teaching the 5th finger curled in thing. He was a pretty young man then, likely around the time when that slow motion video of him was filmed.
@@SaiChooMusic In fact I do think I remember Josef Hoffman saying that curling the fifth finger back was a good thing to stabilize the hand in playing. He felt it helped maintain the bridge of the other fingers. I will have to look this up though because I could be misquoting him. I personally don't advocate for this. I think the fingers should all be rested on the keys with a relaxed arm. Hoffman and Horowitz learned before we really fully understood repetitive strain injuries. In fact, Tobias Matthay who advocated for a relaxed technique plus a rotary motion to aid finger work, was ostracized by his colleagues for suggesting what they believed to be something so ridiculous. Chopin too believed similar to Matthay but his ideas were never published, at least not until relatively recently. Now, those teachers who teach more ergonomic principles of technique quote Matthay and Chopin all the time citing them as good sources on the topic.
None of what I'm saying takes away from Horowitz the artist, who still stands as one of the most incredible pianists of any generation.
@@josephfleetwood3882 Yeah I couldn't recall if it was Lhevinne or Hoffman who spoke about the curled 5th finger, I suspect it was Hoffman.
My violin teacher in university was a completely natural player, he just intuitively understood how to move. But he didn't really understand how to explain how to move. It was tough learning from him lolol. I was the same way a bit. I grew up just understanding how to play freely, but for me, later in life when I started hitting the limits of when my intuition just wasn't enough, I started having to have a more intentional approach to movement. I think intuitive players who are really really talented can completely master the instrument without hitting those walls. But when something changes internally, like physical or mental health, and you start thinking about the instrument differently, sometimes those people have to go through a relearning process where everything they did intuitively has to start happening intentionally. I think that's why teaching can help your playing a lot, it forces you into that thought process early. To me, that tense recording where he was struggling was just him having a learning moment that most of us mortals encounter a whole lot earlier haha, and he had to go "why the heck isn't this easy."
Back at the end of '90/beginning of '91, I played on Horowitz's Steinway. I, too, was a little surprised at the lightness in the action, and my tuner friends all joked about how much stuff had been done to that piano at his request.
Excellent video! I am without a teacher and so, in order to try and improve my technique, I watch recordings of professional classical concert artists. I was taught to keep my wrists and arms essentially level with the keyboard, hand and fingers in a naturally curved, relaxed position. Nothing should be rigidly held in position, but rather should have freedom and thus ease of movement - a flowing type movement.
Horowitz often used flat fingers and/or very curled fingers which visually reminded me of a spider. I tried to imitate his position and technique but found I lost control of my touch. It was also fatiguing as I felt tension in my fingers and throughout my arms in order to maintain such a position - ultimately, when fatigue started to set in, I discovered that I was lifting my shoulders in order to continue in the same manner.
I also noted that Horowitz did not keep his fingers & hands close to the keys. I find that by staying close to the keys, I don't have to cover as much distance from one key to the next, jumps are not as far, my playing is smoother, and legato is not as difficult. I also find that a relaxed, close to the keyboard position diminishes my anxiety over accuracy. It's a more enjoyable experience overall.
Horowitz also appeared to have hunched over the keyboard at times. Such a position for me leads to a tired back and thus when I start to become uncomfortable, I have to fight myself to continue.
I have concluded that Horowitz's technique does not work at all well for me. I use to believe that it was because my hands, arms and so on developed in accordance with how I was taught to use them and thus due to my limitations, I was unable to benefit from Horowitz's technique. After watching your vid I am now of the opinion that Horowitz's technique was not the best and so I now have more confidence in myself.
I am glad you have decided to unban this video. Thank you so much!
Its very interesting. When you play with the low arm position you dont like, it does give you a cleaner and more exiting attack, honestly sounds better for the two pieces you demonstrated, but onviously it could sound weird with something more lyrical. Gould also sat very low but i dont see him being so static with his arms.
Anyway its an interesting thing that across instruments the superstars often have unique techniques that seem inefficient or like they should not work. That is possibly because human appreciation of beauty is not a study in efficiency. The most efficienct sound is a midi keyboard playing exactly what is written, but there is nothing more boring and souless than that.
The other thing is, in terms of injuries, a lot or it is to do with genetic variation in anatomy. Overuse injuries often happen not because of overuse itself but due to the nerve and arm structures inducing injury and tension that cannot heal in time for the next use.
Nerves tend tend to shorten with age as structures become more rigid and kyphosis increases. But some people are lucky enough to have less genetic tendency for this and wider nerve tunnels and so can handle far more load with less injury.
You see with singers for instance that many of the most famous singers of the 40s-70s were linked to Melocchi who taught basically the opposite of what all modern speech pathologists advocate. Again he advocated a static tension type technique .
And indeed many of his students ruined their voices, but the ones that survived excelled and are considered best of all time. .
I felt like the Scarlatti sounded better in your first run-through using 'Horowitz' technique than when you did it with your usual technique. There's something to be said about inefficient technique leading to more interesting sounds, because once everything is 'perfect' it quickly becomes boring. Great video, I did agree with just about everything else you said.
That’s an interesting point. Similarly, I like watching older fancy cars, however prefer to drive Tesla lol
I had similar impression that the finger-only Scarlatti sounded better. Generally, I find playing with fingers-only on a modern piano produces a smaller tonal range, and using more of the body produces bigger range of tonal color. For Scalatti I'm used to hearing a small and even tonal range without huge dynamic changes, and has the impression of sound & tonal range of early pianofortes/keyboards. That said, of course, it's not worth injury. (But personally, even as an amateur, I stay away from Scarlatti.)
@DenZhdanovPianist This is exactly the difference in mindset between old-style men and modern men. Old and "romantic" people prioritise aesthetics over everything. To these people it doesn't matter that the old cars may be way more dangerous, because the aesthetic of how it looks and feels is more important. Same thing with Horowitz's piano playing. Same thing with Michelangeli, he always looks clean and professional and his clarity in piano playing is the most imprtant aesthetic to him.
Same. :)
Yes I agree, the Scarlatti of Mr. Horowitz is much better, than both examples of Mr. Zhdanov … no strong evidence of his theories… I want to add that I could imagine Horowitz would be very unlucky use his Tokyo 83 Concert for such a Video
Very interesting. Glenn Gould also sat very low and with elbows below the keyboard. He was known for using hot wet towels on his forearms before performances. It would be interesting to see a comparison of his technique to that of Horowitz and Lang Lang.
I'd love to see an analysis of Lang Lang's "before and after" the break he took. To see what he did. His Goldberg Variations are incredible.
Jose Iturbi also sat low.
@@chrysanthemumfan214
Lang Lang had to cancel a concert here because of tendinitis in his arms!!!
I hate his theatrically appearance and especially his face while playing anyway - doesn't seem very relaxed!
This is so great. Love this. Thank you for ALL of your amazing videos.
You perhaps don't realize that Horowitz's piano was voiced in a manner that imitates fortepianos from around 1830. He had the hammers replaced every year during which the hammer heads were ground down to the smallest size possible consistent with a reliable repetition. You will notice when watching videos of him playing his piano in concert that the keys bobble when suddenly released. This indicates that the weight of the hammer heads are barely able to guarantee a snappy return of the key. Under this set up in the action, he never had to fight the weight of the keys to depress them. The slightest touch of the fingers on the key will produce a mezzoforte so when playing softly the hands, fingers, and arm had to function reliably when totally relaxed. This is how the Fortepianos have to be played. Any forcing of the muscles will cause them to misfire by being too loud. His technique was predicated on playing a softly as possible consistent with his interpretation, You will also notice that he rarely plays FFF and when he does that FFF only appears to sound FFF because the light hammers are also very bright sounding, which means he hardly has to work at all to generate strong differences in volume because he relys on how the human ear adapts to whatever volume is first heard and everything heard thereafter sounds either louder or softer by comparison. He was supposed to quantify a minimum of 29 levels of touch. His interpretations are best understood by reading The Craft of. Musical Communication at themusiciansstudio.com to understand the cantabile style of playing prevalent throughout Europe and the US before 1940.
Yes I do realize that, and this doesn’t contradict to anything I’ve said.
I have not criticized his cantabile or any other interpretational choices, by accentuating a few times throughout the video that I admire him as an artist, having concerns solely about technical approach from the positions of a life-long sustainability, but people apparently are not able to comprehend that there are more options to attitude and research on people then a 100% worshipping or 100% hatred😂
The most insightful comments on Horovitz I have seen so far! I always wondered about Horovitz‘ peculiar style of playing. Now I begin to understand what he was doing and why it is not a good idea at all to try to copy him. Thank you for your explanations and demonstrations!
Glad you enjoyed it!
As far as technique, probably not a great idea to try to copy Horowitz, but as far as his musical conceptions, what I wouldn't give to be able to render as Horowitz did any number of pieces that I love. The range of sound, the tonal beauty, the vocal quality. And an overall piano sound that, in my listening experience of 50-some years, was utterly unique. I was only able to attend one recital of Horowitz's, and that was at Orchestra Hall in Chicago in either the late 1970s or very early 1980s--I forget the exact year. It was in a sense a bad recital for Horowitz since there were lots of missed notes and big memory lapses. But I've never heard a piano sound like that in my life--his sonority was staggering and so orchestral. John Browning once said in an interview that he felt that Horowitz had gone beyond the piano. In any case, although I agree with Mr. Zhdanov that Horowitz's physical approach to the piano was not a healthy one that we should try to emulate, when it comes to the musical results that Horowitz achieved, I'm all for trying to emulate him. If only that were so easy!
I agree . I remember his concert in 1986 in Leningrad when I was shocked by his hand position, by his maybe pianistically imperfections, pedaling in Mozart. My reaction was that I spent my life for nothing by studying in the most respected music schools. It was the greatest experience in my life( Im visiting Carnegie quite often). It takes a genius to overstep boundaries , rules, physical laws and to achieve such an effect on audience
Yes, his charisma is astounding
This is a really important video. Thank you for making it!
Excellent video. It definitely puts an additional perspective on his long sabbaticals. I think you also give us a better understanding of his attitude to the Chopin etudes, and his reluctance to play most of them.
It seems to my mind that his having arthritis and nerve damage would have dictated to a large degree how he used his body when playing the piano and also not forgetting to mention his various phobias and depressions necessitating drug treatment for all of the above issues. All in all I think that he compensated for these multiple limiting factors heroically and effectively against all the odds, he was a shining example of how to overcome your limitations and he continued to provide some of the best performances both live and recorded of the 20th century. He shows by example there are many ways up a mountain and it is always worth investigating alternative ways of playing a instrument to achieve new heights. Bravo Vladimir and thanks Denis for the video it is a very interesting analysis and provides some great insights into his technique.
Very good advice on building a technique that can be sustained even when you're out of shape. Train in such a way that even your worst self sounds good. If even the worst version of you sounds good, you are ready for the concert!
Well said!
Think of SAS - or free climing - or something, where a very special, or most special high performance just takes something special, and can take something out of you, or right out of you. In order to get the 'best' performance, training for 'consistency' doesn't always equate to being able to demonstrate your absolute 'peak' (or 'best'). It can also be just up to a particular individual to pull something super special off - eg. Vlad. Corraling somebody into something - such as getting everybody to conform to one recommended style can take something away.
Thank you very much for this excellent and enlightening analysis
I studied with a pianist who did her dissertation on a blind pianist. I can look up the name if you're interested. She had the most hands on teaching style I've ever encountered - - very effective. Another teacher, who is a contemporary of Argerich in Argentina with the same teacher, once explained the legato on repeated notes by saying "it's like you get on your tippy toes" and proceeded to demonstrate by flexing up and down on her tippy toes-- at age almost 70 by the way. I liked her approach to technique best. She made very few specific suggestions but I remember all of them vividly.
I'm an amateur, to be clear, but I had the good fortune to study with some very fine pianists in adulthood after a succession of mediocre teachers in childhood. My level is what I would call playing Chopin etudes and the Hammerklavier fugue in the shower, so to speak.
One of my childhood teachers really emphasized sitting still, which I think was very damaging, resulting in lifelong problems with stiffness.
Interesting story, thanks for sharing!
@@DenZhdanovPianist I have a different question for you related to piano technique. This is about posture. There are many current pianists who play in a horrible slouching posture - - - regardless of their level of play. Sokolov and Pletnev are two notable examples, but there are many others. Pianists of earlier generations didn't sit like that. Do you have any explanation, or do you disagree? Two things come to mind. First, a pianist who sits high may have to lean over a lot to get into the keys. Second, the examples I can think of have Russian conservatory training. Not all are like that of course. As you would know, Virsaladze does not slouch.
Great video!! Thank you for all the excellent observation and crystal clear points. And love those slow-downed motion of Horowitz's fingers motion.
Thanks for commenting!
The great Cuban pianist Jorge Bolet advised his students to sit as low as they practically could. He also used flat fingers in lyrical music when he wanted a certain sound. My own last teacher, the late David Bradshaw, was an exponent of Lechtititsky's method. He said that sitting lower enables one to play accurately with less practice, which is otherwise difficult. He told me that I produced a much better sound when I sat lower. Bradshaw said the only thing sitting higher makes easier is playing louder, which is the easiest thing to do anyway. So, since most of us don't have 30 hours a day in which to practice, why not do what makes the difficult easier? But I have also thought about this, and I think for a huge work like the Brahms 2nd Concerto, a higher sitting position would make a lot of sense, as long as one's hands remained as close to the keys as possible. I also found that sitting lower made it easier for me to use weight, and to voice chords, and I got less fatigued. It's a difficult and controversial question, complicated by the fact that we are all physically shaped a bit differently.
Thank you for taking your time to produce the video. Your research and your assessment is indeed important for many piano students
Thank you for your kind feedback!
Vladimir Horowitz was my neighbor on the Upper East Side in Manhattan back in the day. One time, a friend and I were pushing our bikes up 5th Avenue near Central Park and saw Horowitz sitting on a park bench with his wife and another woman, (Horowitz was always friendly, his wife not so much.) I can't remember how we got on the subject, but knowing we both played piano, he said the brakes on the bicycle was bad for your hands, as you had to squeeze and stretch them too much, and he held his hands up to demonstrate. I've never seen anyone's hands look like that; my whole hand would have fit in his palm. They were just so unusual, very long and thin fingers which you can't really see when they're on the keyboard. Maybe he used a different technique because his hands were so different. In this case, the ends justify the means as he certainly got the job done, one way or the other.
Great story! You had a nice neighborhood I’d say🙂
Thank your for your good work!~ Smart and keen observations.~
Thanks for commenting!
Great video! I remember seeing somewhere garick ohlosson saying that people that try to imitate might get hurt, and I can see it better now.
Maybe a bit too much to ask, but may you do a video like this on Gyorgy Cziffra? Would really be interesting and perhaps benefitial to hear your opinion and point of view on his technical approach.
Thanks for the content.
Yeah that’s a peculiar topic thanks for suggestion
I totally agree with your accurate analisys. Excellent job, as usual. Thank you. It would be very nice to have some more videos like that about other famous pianists. Personally, I've always admired Argherich's tecnique.
Excellent well substantiated and referenced pianism analysis. I don't think his flat fingers technique was ever accepted by anybody as a model to follow," it looks bad, but sounds good" is the well accepted credo among his fanatic admirers. They would drown the argument by saying he was a genius to make his odd technique work. The funny anecdote for me is i had seen none of his video recordings when i stumbled on the Tokyo Op 25 n 10 recital while i was studying that etude. I was very surprised how badly he played and remember thinking this is so bad that some pianists would stop and walk off the stage. After this I took his fame with a lot of suspicion.
It's unfortunate we don't have any video coverage of Rachmaninof playing, as before becoming a famous composer he lived from being a concert pianist. I somehow remember maybe wrongly reading that he had a flat fingers technique as well but in his case, his huge hands change a lot of parameters.
A fabulous analysis. Many thanks.
Cziffra honestly is the best of all time without controverse for his surhuman technique. The rest is at the appreciation of eachone
Fantastic video, thank you, Denis. I was told by a teacher who has similar views to you that Rubinstein had "absolutely beautiful" technique. I wonder if you could do a video on his use of forearm rotation and using the whole arm in his playing?
Thanks for the suggestion, that’s a great topic of course!
For piano mechanics, I look to Marc Andre Hamelin. Easily one of the very best players ever from a mechanical perspective.
Listen to Josef Hofmann in his prime, and to Rachmaninoff.
@@johnschlesinger2009 not much video of theirs to watch. I’ve heard all the recordings.
@@johnschlesinger2009 "In his prime"? Just like Horowitz in his prime? Why the loss of the heights of playing when Hofmann was older?
I studied with Marc-Andre's teacher, who had intriguing insights into Horowitz's technique
@@alanfraser2948 elaborate please!
Excellent, comme toutes vos vidéos !
Pour l’étude en tierces de Chopin j’utilise volontiers les mouvements dedans/dehors qui permettent d’éviter trop d’efforts…
I'm starting to learn piano, so your advice on keeping elbows higher than keys and using whole arm will undoubtedly be helpful to me as I practice
That’s a good idea for beginners! Just avoid another extreme as well!)
Wow! A real eye opener. I always wondered about technique that relied mainly on finger movement instead of integration of wrist, and arm movement. Thanks so much for enlightenment!
Very interesting and useful lesson. Brilliant analysis as always.
This is really interesting to me. I would like to see more videos on the topic of Horowitz technique.
Дуже цікавий розбір. Браво за сміливість!
Would love to see you do a similar analysis of Glenn Gould’s unusual technique.
gould was a great artist but his hand position in relation to his entire arm meant he must have had some tendonitis
Please make a video like this about Martha Argerich's technique. As you say at some point Argerich's technique is more natural and relaxed compared to Horowitz' I would really like to learn about the subtleties of her pianistic approach.
Thanks I will try!
Do you have advice for positioning the stool to the right or left of the center of the piano? It was brought to my attention that i lift my right shoulder and lean in to the left a lot. I started positioning stool to the left more to compensate. Ive been more self-observant and noticed that still no matter where i sit, i feel limited and uncomfortable with movements on my right side, such as right elbow bumping into my side or chest when the melody moves lower. I don’t sit too close to piano.
It's challenging to give precise advice without seeing you, but generally, it's better to sit in the center. You can adjust your arm and torso posture to feel more comfortable. Typically, when playing in a distant zone, fingers are not parallel to the keys. For instance, when playing the right hand in the bass, you'd push your right elbow to the right, causing the fingers to angle in relation to the keys rather than aligning parallel to them.
Extremely accurate and comprehensive analysis!
Thank you for the great work.
Thanks for your feedback Dyma!
Wonderful commentary on technique and historical information. Thank you 😊
I heard that when Horowitz was teaching octaves to a student, he explained that the upper arm should be rigid. A different old school pianist with a very free technique was Hofmann. In one video I saw of him playing the Rachmaninoff C# minor prelude, he looked a rag doll.
That’s interesting gotta find this recording
All these things about Cziffra. Cziffra would often slow down when things got tough like Simon Barere does for the thirds in Schumann Toccata at Carnegie Hall. Argerich's technique is the great secret! Also Sokolov! Horowitz talked about feeling like his arm would fall off for Winter Wind etude(Plaskin biography). He always had a weird technique
My take is that as he got older he practiced less and less and relied more and more on "static tension" for the difficult passages. Horowitz's technique was his ears... I don't know how to judge his technical mistakes, it seems to me that at some point he stopped caring about accuracy..
For me, it's unlikely considering how centered he was on virtuosity and technique for the first half of his career. Rubinstein was deeply ashamed and worried after listening to young Horowitz and went on to practice ten times more than before. My suggestion is still that he had some damage to the arms with a fluctuating condition throughout the second half of his career, which could describe many things, including a change of motions and the lack of former brilliance even in the repertoire he played since his youth. What I don't believe is that he was careless, considering how enormous his ambition and ego were..
I have always thought that he had some form of focal dystonia in the second half of his career. He clearly was not in command of his 4th and 5th fingers, which tended to curl under his hands, could only play octaves with completely flat fingers, which compromised hugely the accuracy, and clearly was extremely limited in the repertoire he actually could play, which if you observe, is very carefully chosen, and even then the technical accuracy was limited. The other person in which you can observe similar problems is Paul Badura Skoda.
I heard from my teacher in LA in the 80s that VH was missing notes because of medication, and the problem cleared up in his last few years’ concerts and recordings.
As for sitting low: he said he learned that from his sister, who told him that you see the keys better when you are closer.
This might also explain why he tends to hunch forward as he plays. Not only does his playing technique risk injury, so does his posture.
Blues players and rockers don’t worry about technicalities. He was a rock and roller at heart, who happened to play classical piano. 😀
I wish I said this earlier, but I love these types of videos from you. In terms of tutorials, only some might be applicable to certain people, but these are general and interesting for a wider audience. Great job!!
Glad you like it! Thanks for your feedback! More videos like this to come…
Yes, your video resonates with me. This is the first video of yours I have seen. Very good and informative.
Thanks and welcome
Can you please make a video on Wilhelm Kempff's technique! He is my piano God and would love to get insights in his technique. I really liked this video and would humbly request a similar analysis on Kempff! Thanks alot!
Your ideas on forearm rotation and recovering from injuries/overuse remind me very much of the Taubman techniques. Are they something you've looked into or been influenced by? I found a Taubman teacher and suddenly a lot of technical difficulties went away and I became so much more conscious of what my muscles and skeleton were doing while I was playing.
Yes, sadly I came across Taubman method too late when I have already re-invented my own bicycle. But it helped me to organize things and understand them in a systematic order. Although I never studied this method officially, and some things I prefer to play and teach differently, so despite influence I am not an orthodox Taubman specialist. I also find many good aspects in flat finger type of technique Horowitz and many other people use, I just find it more risky overall…
Another genius video, Denis! 👏
Also very informative! Are you by any chance planning to do a whole tutorial on Chopin op 10 no 8? I would very much welcome that!
Yes I am planning to do that indeed!
Do have a video about feux follets? I would like some advice because every time I play it in public, the beginning with duble notes doesn't goes very well, and I feel I need to use a lot of articulation to do it.
Usually when I practice the double notes passages my forearms hurts
Thank you. I learned valuable things from this video of yours that are new to me and that I will apply myself from now on. Finally, a comment on the Horowitz performance of Chopin’s Polonaise in Ab at 4:00pm on a Sunday in the Rose Garden of the White House years ago. He made many terrible mistakes during that, but I have never read or heard any commentary on the fact.
Glad it was helpful!
Yes nobody is perfect and some of the worst concerts I’ve heard in my life were given by the biggest names (emerging young pianists may not be as experienced in stage presence but usually work hard to present their programs in a good quality). It’s a shame that nowadays nobody dares to give honest critics about what they think if the pianist is very famous. In my opinion, this leads to industry stagnation and idolizations.
As someone who attended a recital by V H, (1978, very last row in balcony) he played his Sunday concert and seemingly made the building shake. Yet also, I feel so fortunate to have that experience And know the pitfalls of some of these old outmoded techniques. Thank you Denis!
As a Non-Classical player, it is interesting to see how to get around physical damage from playing.
I have managed to get some physical issues.
As a Jazz player, having to alter one's playing technique and the resulting change in the performance.
I had some Alexander Technique training when I was in school and would like to get back into that.
Wonderful analysis, Denis! That said, I often wonder if there's more to the story. All your points about using isolated fingers and so on are well taken, but when I look at, for example, you trying it out, vs Horowitz, you can see that Horowitz's playing seems much more natural even though he's roughly using the same movements. Maybe he's found a way to remain relaxed, and it's a very subtle thing you could only observe if you could see his arms perfectly. The same thing strikes me about Cziffra -- that yes, many people played similarly and got injured, but they didn't play the same. You tend to much more easily be able to see unnaturalness, locked joints, etc. in other pianists who have got injured, vs a Horowitz or Cziffra. They seem loose and relaxed and like they're having fun, and I don't think it's just for show. Of course, there's strength involved, but it's more like the strength of a gymnast where it's invisible.
My personal feeling is that they found a local optimum of sorts. If you play the same way they play, it's very hard to play more efficiently. There might be better ways, but if it's efficient enough, it can get the job done, especially at younger ages. Cziffra played the same way into his 70s; that is what fascinates me even more. I feel like there's really something special to be learned there if one can figure out what's going on there.
Something I feel, and this might be a bit controversial, is that one of the reasons many pianists sound the same way nowadays is because we have discovered "biomechanically optimal" ways of playing over the past century, which are then taught en masse. Perhaps a more dangerous sound requires more dangerous playing? The sound quality, especially, depends so much on how you strike the key, that if you teach the exact same approach, they will end up with very similar sound quality. I think I can hear this happening, but I'm not sure what could be done about it.
I agree with your last point. We can hear Lang Lang’s Hungarian Rhapsody and immediately recognize it’s him. Same goes for Cziffra, Katsaris, Pogorelich to name just a few. I’ve come to realize our body is actually a part of the instrument these days.
Thanks for commenting, good points! Parrying your concern, I don’t think that efficient technique makes people sound the same: Argerich, Gilels, Sokolov, Rachmaninoff, to name a few, represent a very efficient and sustainable technique, but I wouldn’t say they lost some personality because of that.
On the contrary, Trifonov, Kissin, and Lang Lang (at least before his injury) have a quite risky approach to piano playing, but I personally can’t say it always convinces me musically.
But I agree that a unique physiology can allow to stay afloat with a quite weird way of playing for longer. I have no idea for example how Kissin didn’t get injured yet with an incredible amount of banging and physical force he uses. But in case of Horowitz I still see a drastic difference in brilliance and control between his earlier and later public performances (recordings don’t count because you can do a hundred of takes for any spot until you nail it) which aligns with my arguments from the video.
I hosted the piano he used on tour at my studio. The keys were extremely light. Teachers and students were invited to come and play on the piano. The same with Van Cliburn's piano. It was displayed at the studio but the keys were normal.
Thank you for a very insightful look into Horowitz and his technique. No assessment of piano technique of that era would be complete without reference to the technique and teachings of Cortot - I would be very interested if you could look at how Horowitz's style compared to that of Cortot given that Cortot spent so much time teaching and published numerous books on the topic, and particularly as he was regarded as the world's leading interpreter of Chopin.
Great fine study and analysis of Horowitz's styles.
I would love to watch you analyze Glenn Gould's approach to the keyboard!
Technique isnt that important, the most important thing is the overall sound and he achieves it. I see bunch of ppl complaining abt nonsense in comments.
Technique IS important. It defines the sound you make on the piano. Though, technically, it doesn't suit everyone, Horowitz's technique was a conscious choice. A choice that defines the sound that has stood the test of time; a sound adores my millions; a sound that none can imitate.
@@michaelwong5356 you either didnt read what I said or didnt understand it. There are many players who have “weird” technique but produce an excellent and unique tone. The result matters.
Interesting analysis, it makes me wonder how much the spectacular range of colors, timbres, and voicings which Horowitz alone could conjure was a result of his unorthodox technique. Also, I feel this video begs the question: what is the goal of piano technique? Is it merely a mechanical process of applying correct arm and hand movements so that you may perform in the most efficient and safe manner possible? Or is the goal to create something magical and transcendent using the medium of sound?
For modern pianists, the technique is just about being simplified. The technique of the old pianists (like Lhevinne, Cortot, Rachmaninoff, Horowitz, Backhaus) was not comfortable, but it was all about sound colors, polyphony, etc.
In my opinion the only important thing is SOUND, only someone cares about technique: the pianist. Or even more restricted: pianist's body long term speaking. To create a good analogy, in tennis Nadal was well known as a monster player (also Alcaraz right now), Djokovic has an almost perfect technique so he barely got injuries, Nadal for more injuries, so he played less and worse the last years. But...at the end of the day would you hear the recordings of the Horowitz-es or the recordings of someone with a perfect technique but a mundane sound?? So this is the same. If you can achieve both ok, but that's rarely seen.
I think the finger movement in op. 10 no. 8 is to get an articulated nonlegato sound, not to get the thumb under to the next position. Horowitz was no doubt a master of avoiding a loud thumb/getting smooth transition. Also, it's easier going down than up with the right hand.
I remember reading that Horowitz said he had no idea how he did what he did. I guess it was all so natural for him from his very early age. Graffman said Horowitz never told him how to play, he would sit on the sofa and watch while Graffman would play.
Horowitz last recorded concert was in Hamburg. He has trouble with the closing piece, Chopin Op 53 but still pulls it off. The final Moskovsky piece is dazzling.
Which Scarlatti sonata is in your video? Thank you for all of your wonderful performance and advice!
Scarlatti K55
Yes that’s the problem - even the most gifted pianists often play intuitively, and don’t teach physiological aspects of piano playing because frankly speaking have no idea about them, however sustainable piano technique is not always intuitive for everyone.
___ I had a teenage master lesson with Bela Siki who said my Alborada del Gracioso was "not bad" but that my Etudes were too stiff --- a few years later my next teacher made me start over with full relaxation --- at 85 I aim for 100% shoulder to finger relaxation and can play the Octave Etude accurately at speed with total relaxation, always keeping the white thumbs close to the black keys.
My first teacher, an internationally acclaimed Godowsky student always talked about 'arm weight', which I never understood --- Could someone comment on MY mostly finger technique, based on finger speed , augmented occasionally by the use of the wrist as a fulcrum to transfer extra relaxed arm weight to the finger tip and move effortlessly to the next location --- e.g. the accented notes in the octave study.
What you may not know is that the pianos he played were set up to have a very gentle action which
enabled Him to play rapidly with a rather flat hand position and without
a lot of effort. Oh, I see you mentioned that...sorry:(
Have you examined the playing
of Samson Francois?
Not much
Very interesting video. I am no expert but even though their may have been some flaws in his technique it may have only affected him as he got quite old. I recently watched a video of someone call Wanda Landowska and I would love to hear your opinion of her technique. She played with claw hands and really low wrists. It looked like she was hanging onto a cliff but then again she was quite old and it didn't stop her but surely it didn't do her any good. It looked so awkward.
Very good video. I followed and agreed with most of what you suggested. However regarding his scaling back his repertoire as he aged in an effort to streamline some of the more technically challenging repertoire, I can't help but think of his performance of Rach #3 with the NY Phil quite late in life, still sounded amazing and youthful!!
That was very interesting! Anyway, I am not a pianist but I play the piano and I am always stunned when I listen to Rachmaninows piano concerto No. 3 and following the partitur - how can a human being play this multitude of notes with such impossible speed? I think, to be able to do so, a pianist is, while playing those passages, in a kind of trance.
In passages such as the Chopin Ballade in the second clip, Horowitz's elbow travels with his hand across the keyboard, not held against his body.
Horowitz was one of few pianists who improvise which few of today's can do,apart from Katsaris who I admire greatly.,also who has an inspiring ability to voice inner melodic lines ..
Great video, thanks!
excellent video Denis ! i’ve always thought this about Horowitz, but given the skill abyss separating me from him i thought something was wrong with me lol ! Theres some sort of “sacro-saint” status that 20th century legends have which makes us afraid to “criticize” them. But an unhealthy technique is an unhealthy technique no matter the virtuosity, and the NAME of the pianist. The new technique school that you represent shall be so much better for our body and allow us to play for as long as possible :)
PS : i would LOVE to see you make a similar analysis with other great 20th century/current pianists !!
So very true! Contrast the economy of effort of say, Gilels or Richter: always just enough energy directed into the strings, and so relaxed in the succeeding instant.
Thank you for this very intelligent and carefully researched video. We all admire aspects of Horowitz's artistry,
Great explanation, really makes sense. I always found it strange, the way his arms and fingers moved. But maybe it was a technique that made sense to him and fitted him perfectly.
I have seen a few guitar players with such crazy technique, hand positions and the way they hold their picks, but they are such amazing virtuosos. I tried copying their techniques and it was just impossible to play. In some interviews, they were asked about this and they just said that they were self-taught and that's how they felt comfortable playing.
So maybe Horowitz played that way because he was comfortable in that position, which worked 100% for him but may cause serious damage to other players.
I thought I was very comfortable with the way I played 10 years ago until it started to limit me, give pains and forced me to restructure the whole approach. Luckily, I got some advices from more experienced people who helped me to get on the right track and recover. Looking at his later recordings, and separating my admiration to him as an interpreter and his piano technique, I don’t see him being very efficient technically. On the contrary, I am quite amazed how powerful is the emotional experience he delivers despite all the inaccuracy he often had.
Hello, in Cortot's piano technique book, in the first exercices (page 7 in my French edition), he recommends to set the bench at 40-45 cm high.
It's very low...maybe at the time it was a standard to sit low.
Chopin also sat lower (but not that much) and called the people using the Liszt high position of sitting : the pianobreakers
Please keep in mind that pianos might be of a different hight. I didn’t study this deeply but I have a feeling that some 80+ year old grands are somewhat lower that modern grand pianos. Vertical pianos vary even among modern models.
Instruments of Chopin were appr. as light as of Horowitz. Sitting low on those types of instruments is somewhat less dangerous than sitting on high instruments. In my opinion this is the reason why Horowitz was still able to play with this posture. On a heavier instrument he’d hill himself much more effectively and faster.
@@DenZhdanovPianist Cortot says that grand piano have a standard height of 72 cm (and dismiss upright pianos) : if I'm not mistaken, this height is still the same today.
The flaw in this video is that this person is comparing themselves to Vladimir Horowitz, projecting without factual support, and cherry-picking. Everybody is slightly different, physiologically. Horowitz could curl his right pinky finger tightly, and yet still move the other four fingers with perfect independence; something even other virtuoso pianists can’t accomplish, even when they try. I’d posit that as demonstration that the physiology of his hand/arm’s musculature may have been slightly different from the average person’s: maybe a particular muscle was stronger than normal, or perhaps a particular tendon and ligament weren’t connected the way they are in other peoples’ hand. It’s impossible to say authoritatively *why* without scientific study of his hand, but I’m wiling to posit that as a hypothetical observation that he may have had slight psychological differences. Did Horowitz have improper technique, or did he have the technique that worked for the physiology of his hands and fingers?
The person in the video talks about what feels natural & comfortable *to him*, but he is not Vladimir Horowitz. He says in the video that, of course, you can’t compare the best pianist ever and some random guy from youtube…but then he does just that. These are two different people with two different bodies. What doesn’t feel natural to you may feel like the most natural thing to another person. He suggests that how Horowitz played might be harmful or “inefficient” to someone else, but Horowitz, even in his old age, played with a level of ease and freedom that nearly every great pianist of the 20th Century, and even new pianists of the 21st Century stare at in awe, still.
He says that there’s a difference between “short-term piano technique” and “long term piano technique”, and speaks about how improper technique can be damaging. Well that’s true. But, Vladimir Horowitz was still performing and recording up until his death, at 86 years old. He famously recorded the Rachmaninoff Third Concerto at 75, Scriabin’s Vers La in his 70s, some Chopin’s etudes in his 80s, and many other exceptionally difficult works. And he could still play those works with more skill and éclat than those with proper technique. In fact, his decline was traced to the use of medications for his mental health issues, not any particular physical damage to the hands or arms. So, if his technique were so improper, one would think it would have impacted him, but he was still able to perform exceptionally well into his 80s.
The guy in the video links back, numerous times, to the famous bad performance Horowitz did in Tokyo in 1983 as evidence of his statements, but, Horowitz biographers and those who knew him personally testify that those performances were the result of the psychiatric medication he was on…not poor technique. And once he changed that medication, those issues went away. He gave numerous superb recitals in his old age, many of which are on video, but are curiously missing from this assessment. Moreover, he kept recording up until his death, and his studio recordings remain superior, technically. His final take of the Revolutionary Etude is blazingly fast, effortless, and with almost pianissimo leggiero playing in the left hand that would not be possible for someone whose technique had been compromised by physical injury or damage.
And while he does acknowledges that Horowitz was on psychiatric drugs during the Tokyo recital, he says that if Horowitz had “efficient piano technique”, he would’ve been able to get through the Tokyo recitals. Well, that’s just nonsense. No amount of “efficient piano technique” is going to help you combat the debilitating effects of strong psychiatric medication. He talks about what he would do to play octaves if he was tense or suffering from overuse…but again, Horowitz was not suffering from overuse, but debilitating psychiatric medication.
He looks at an old video & says that Horowitz’s fingers are tense during octaves while looking at an old video…mind you, the video is slowed down by nearly 10x speed. So, we’re not seeing prolonged tension..you’re seeing the minor natural tensing that occurs when playing octaves at those speeds.
He then starts postulating reasons for why Horowitz took his sabbaticals and loosely tying them to technique, but nothing demonstrably or summarily supports that assumption.
He suggests that Horowitz’s repertoire diminished with age, but that is not an indication of technique, so much as a trend that nearly all concert pianists exhibit as they get older. He mentions Martha Argerich as a model of perfect playing - and I agree) - but her repertoire has also dwindled as she’s aged. So that contradicts his point.
He also mentions having a piano with a very light action, but so did Liszt, and so do many pianists. It is a fact that modern pianos have a heavier key down weight than the pianos which were used by the composers whose music he plays, so naturally going for a lighter action is sensible. So, again, a contradiction to his point.
He then mentions Horowitz’s student developing physical issues, but Horowitz didn’t teach technique to his students. Like Liszt, he was not particularly hands-on with the technique side of things and expected students to take care of that on their own. Many of them say he was concerned more about interpretation and mentorship. Moreover, he had other students who were just fine and had no issues. Graffman’s issues were his own. This kind of cherry-picking, again, weakens the argument.
This person cherry-picks two or three bad performances out of YEARS of exceptional recorded recitals, and uses this as evidence. That’s not evidence, that’s cherry-picking and intentionally ignoring context and facts.
I think when you try to judge someone like a Vladimir Horowitz by typical standards - a mistake as he was atypical and extraordinary- AND you leave out context, facts, and data to build your narrative, it’s hard to take this video as a serious assessment of Horowitz.
WOW, what a powerful statement!!
Thanks for diligently criticizing my position, I'll address a few things despite them being addressed in the video clearly enough.
"projecting without factual support", - I rely not only on my own experience which is clearly not an authority for you, but also on acclaimed approaches by Taubman and Boillet, among experience of working with physicians specializing specifically on musicians injuries.
"maybe a particular muscle was stronger than normal, or perhaps a particular tendon and ligament weren’t connected the way they are in other peoples’ hand" - isn't it a projection without factual support?
"Horowitz, even in his old age, played with a level of ease and freedom that nearly every great pianist of the 20th Century, and even new pianists of the 21st Century stare at in awe, still." - I don't awe, because there are many more technically efficient players of his age, despite I admire his artistic presence.
" Moreover, he kept recording up until his death, and his studio recordings remain superior, technically" - as a person who knows a bit about recordings, I can make an audio recording of the flight of the bumblebee played with one finger using editing techniques.
"...pianissimo leggiero playing in the left hand that would not be possible for someone whose technique had been compromised by physical injury or damage." - as a person who didn't play piano for a year due to an overuse issues, which is the main reason I had to gain some knowledge on the issue in order to get back to the profession, I can enlighten you that the condition after injury fluctuates for years greatly, ranging from a bloody catastrophy to a quite decent level of dexterity. I know people who have spent 5-7 years recovering from focal dystonia, have been performing successfully for a few years... in order to run into issues and stop playing again.
We don't know for sure that's true, because Horowitz was smart enough to cover himself with a blanket of mystery, but you won't get closer to the truth using emotional oversimplifications and not digging into the relevant literature and studying efficient approaches from the experts in the field.
"He then mentions Horowitz’s student developing physical issues, but Horowitz didn’t teach technique to his students." - exactly, because he, as well as bunch of famous piano teachers has no idea about efficient approaches. On the contrary, if he knew them, he could notice dangerous signs in the playing of Graffman and warn him in advance.
@@DenZhdanovPianist - The Taubman approach is controversial, at best. There are as many detractors of it as there are supporters of it. To this day, it still remains something of an outlier among the general method of piano pedagogy. The same goes for Boillet. Using that as an authority by which to judge an acclaimed concert pianist doesn’t offer a lot of evidentiary support, those approaches are not even popularly agreed upon as standard, and remain controversial.
- I am not projecting that perhaps Horowitz’s hands may have had slight physiological differences - I am positing that, which I acknolwedged as a “hypothetical observation” verbatim, based on the demonstrable evidence that we have of Horowitz being the only concert pianist of note who played with a tightly curved finger. Based on the physiology of the hand, as is typical, that would be nearly impossible for others. And many who tried it as an amusement were unable to replicate his results. That would suggest there were some physiological differences. Now, as I also admit verbatim, there’s no way to prove that without legitimate scientific study of Horowitz’s hand, but at least we have demonstrable evidence for that.
- You may not be in awe of Horowitz, but many are. Your experience is not central. He is and remains one of the most popular and inspirational classical pianists of all time, remaining a major figure three decades after his death. Even the recent Cliburn competition winner shared how he openly based his own Rachmaninoff Third Concerto interpretation on Horowitz’s. You are using *your* anecdotal perception as a basis by which to make a factual technical judgment call about Horowitz, and I would caution against that.
- What you could do in a studio now is NOT what Vladimir Horowitz could do in the studio during his lifetime. He died in 1989. Everything he recorded was recorded using tape, as modern methods didn’t even exist yet. He was not sitting in front of a computer, able to type in midi notes, and alter them at his will or speed them up how he wanted. The most they could do back then was splice takes together. So, no, he would still have been playing.
- Moreover, even ignoring the recordings, there are live videos of him playing, well into old age, and still exhibiting superior control. His performance of the Liszt-Schubert Soirees de Vienne from his performance in Moscow is a superb demonstration that his control, speed, dexterity, and independence were all still there. The Vienna performance. Many others. All on film, all exhibiting live performances of exceptional control. And all of which you ignore to focus on the famously dreadful performance in Tokyo where even legitimate biographers confirm he was affected by heavy psychiatric medication.
- Have you heard Horowitz’s last recording of the Revolutionary Etude. That’s not “quite decent”. It’s literally one of the fastest, if not the fastest, performance of the piece on record, and, despite the incredible speed, he barely goes above piano or mezzo piano in the left hand for the bulk of the work. That’s high order virtuosity. To assume he’d be able to accomplish that after severe injury isn’t logical.
- As you acknowledge, we don’t know if assumptions of injury are true. There’s absolutely nothing to support that assumption. But what we *do* know for sure are the points you have tried to minimize or ignore: Horowitz was on heavy psychiatric medication that affected him neurologically and affected his motor skills. He was also a drinker. He also underwent a period of electroshock treatment at one point in his life. He was a chronic sufferer of Anxiety Disorder and stage fright which is enough to affect anyone’s playing even without considering the other issues. His wife Wanda said he also suffered colitis. He had numerous documental mental breakdowns. The lack of context you’re using to justify your position doesn’t seem fair. Horowitz’s playing was affected by so much more, but you’re glossing that over to make assumptions about his technique merely because it doesn’t work for you.
- I’m not making emotional oversimplifications. I’m presenting the facts as they are. I have studied Horowitz for over 20 years now, read every biography there is to read, and studied his playing. I am presenting contrary evidence. You zero in on a famously bad performance and use that to support most of your assumptions, while also dismissing the official account that’s even supported by biographers who had no connection to him. You suggest that “efficient playing” can somehow counteract psychiatric medication as a reason to suggest that the medication wasn’t the problem, but no psychiatrist would agree with you on that.
- Horowitz didn’t teach technique to his students because he expected them to already be proficient technicians; the same way Liszt did. To say, however, that Horowitz did not know how to teach technique or have an efficient method to do so is patently false. Horowitz studied at the Kiev Conservatory under Tarnowsky and Felix Blumenfeld, ALL of whom were exceptional teachers and pedagogues steeply rooted in the Russian & Romantic tradition of methodology, which itself was rooted in the methods of Czerny. Many concert pianists who teach don’t go into the depths of technique, because they expect their students to already possess it. Moreover, Graffman was mentored by him informally for two yers, but he was not taught from the ground up by Horowitz. By the time Graffman came to Horowitz, he was already a student of the Curtis Institute, studied at Columbia, won a major competition, and debuted with numerous orchestras. So, to place Graffman’s issues on Horowitz is ill-informed.
You’re literally saying that the greatest pianists of all time didn’t know how to teach and didn’t have effective methods. There’s a bit of arrogance in such a statement, especially when you come to that conclusion by ignoring contrary evidence.
@zailngdt that's nonsense. If anything, placing a do-not-watch caveat appears to be a cheap move to avoid confrontation and pushback on the points raised. A video on social media is decidedly a marketing piece; it was uploaded for the eyes of anyone and everyone interested in the subject matter. It doesn't make much sense then to place such a caveat on a topic that is clearly open for debate and has so been for decades. It would have been much better if the general tenor of his argument was less leading and prescriptive.
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Yes I definitely knew where you were going with your critique...I see this frequently .I think it's his musical charisma that kind of touches people's emotions
This is super insightful. I think it is really hard for students to take some advice of when it comes to technique because one sees certain pianists on UA-cam and one wonders: Why does it work for them then? Well, it didn't really, we often just do not know about it.
Yes, Horowitz was an amazing musician and I was always surprised by his odd technique especially the low wrists and often totally straight flat fingers. Great insight from you.
Thank you, this is a very helpful analysis. I remember when Horowitz's Tokyo performance was a disaster and at the time I didn't know anyone who actually believed it was caused by medication. Long before that performance it was well known that his public repertoire had changed a great deal to accommodate his capabilities. The obvious tension in Horowitz's arms, wrists and fingers was a fairly common point of discussion, especially among people who taught piano. You are not the first person to scrutinize Horowitz's technique by analysing his videos but you are among the first people to deconstruct what led to his diminishing technical capabilities. Mostly, people used his videos to emulate his technique, they thought if it worked for him it would work for them. Many students experimented with playing using flat fingers like Horowitz did but what many people didn't know was just how much that technique was actually limiting Horowitz. Horowitz was born with unusually fast reflexes and in his early years that's what sustained his technique but as you point out his technique couldn't be sustained as he aged the way Martha Argerich's technique has sustained her seemingly effortless performances. Obviously, Horowitz had godlike talent and it's clear that you have the greatest respect for that aspect of his supreme musicianship.
Thank for the thorough sum up, I am glad you’re agree with my perspective.
It’s worth noting that Graffman was also a Serkin student, this may have contributed to his injury more than Horowitz. I would be curious to see you do a similar video on Serkin.
Thank you for a very well-reasoned analysis of Horowitz' technique. You made me recall two anecdotes - Horowitz himself admitted that his teacher, Blumenfeld, allowed or expected his students to figure out what worked for them on their own. The other was something Horowitz said, when asked how he felt after playing one of the Chopin etudes - I think it was the Butterfly etude. He remarked that his arm felt like it would drop off.
Interesting, thank you!
@@DenZhdanovPianist A minor correction - it was the Black Key etude, not the Butterfly. I always mix those two up, I think because I associate them both with the key of G-flat major.
Funny thing: I believe I read that the etude that made Volodya make that "arm falling off" observation was Op. 25 No. 11 ("Winter Wind"), but perhaps he had that experience with both studies.... 🤔😬💥🙏🎹
Отличное видео и интересный анализ. Было бы очень интересно увидеть что-то подобное и про другого величайшего виртуоза - Дьердь Цифры.
How did he manage for so long without permanent injury?! Would love to hear your comments on Artur Rubinstein’s technique. It always looked so healthy, as did Alicia deLarrocha’s. And how about Gould!!! 😬
My personal suspicion, which unfortunately deeply offends some people here, is that he might have had some permanent injury of certain muscles which was the main reason for his peculiar technique in order to use alternative muscle groups, or maybe even dystonia.
@@DenZhdanovPianist thx for your reply. I've often wondered if his absences from concertizing were due to physical injuries as well as other issues. My overall favorite pianist from the past was Rubinstein, not Horowitz although I was always amazed at the effects Horowitz got from the piano given his physical approach to the instrument. Again thx for the response. Much appreciated.
Great video! There's no doubt that this technique enabled him to produce some unbelievable playing such as in the Liszt Pagannini E flat etude and the Mozkowski A flat etude, but it compromised him a lot in other repertoire.
It was his ear that compromised him, not his physical mechanics...
Thank you, that was fascinating.
I was lucky enough to see Horowitz live in the early Eighties.
His fingers weren't what they once were, but the sound was stunning.
I have never heard anyone come close, and I have heard some of the best (Gilels, Richter, Arrau, Brendel, Kempff, Bolet, Pollini etc).
As I understand it, it was his second teacher who got him to switch from a conventional technique to a flat-fingered one.
Claudio Arrau, born the same year, heard Horowitz when they both starting their careers. He noted the stiffness in his forearms, and was of the opinion that it would make it difficult to play long sustained passages such as the end of Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody no 6. (Arrau's mother was also present at the concert and told her son she thought Horowitz was a better pianist than him.)
I am inclined to agree with your assessment, but I do believe it's the flat fingers rather than the lower wrists that were the cause of the problem, as that would have placed an enormous strain on his forearm muscles. After all, it is possible to play comfortably with low wrists if one keeps the fingers slightly curved.
Are you planning a discussion about Glenn Gould? He certainly ran into some serious problems late in his career.
Thanks for commenting! Horowitz has used curled fingers at times when executing fast passages but I really doubt he was able to sustain this state for long at the later stages of his career, because combined with the lower wrist position it’s exhausting. Flatter fingers is where you can rest a bit between faster curled passages using this hand posture.
It’s surprising people don’t want to see the evident or try themselves.
@@DenZhdanovPianist
I have tried myself, and using flat fingers caused me a lot of problems in no time. Yes, curling his fingers to the extent he did would have been very strenuous. I am merely contending that the flat fingers would have caused more damage.
As I said earlier, I agree with your assessment. As happened with Glenn Gould, his unconventional approach caught up with him in later years. But then, it was both artists' unusual approach to piano playing that made them both unique.
I found your presentation absolutely fascinating and have shared it with my music loving friends. I like your approach which is professional, sincere, and generous and yet not overly pedantic. I wish to watch all of your videos. I am not a musician. In the context of this video, I would like to see you make additional videos on the technique of Cziffra and Michelangeli as there is abundant visual material to go on. Visual analysis as you did with Horowitz. How do Cziffra and Michelangeli "get away with it?" I whimsically pose this question, but there is some kinesthetic magic displayed in their performances. To repeat, I celebrate your physiological and orthopedic approach. I was unaware about Lang Lang's misfortune. Can you tell me more?
Thank you for your refreshing and most educational efforts. Horowtiz once commented that he found Lang Lang's performances weird. Look who is talking.
+1 for Cziffra please
Lang Lang was born in 1982, and was therefore only seven years old when Volodya passed in '89. It seems unlikely he would have heard him at all, let alone as a "weird" artist.... 🧐😬🎹💥
@@arpeggiomikeyQuite!
Do you know Alan Frasers approach? If not check it out. The Craft of piano playing
Yes, he has been already intensively checking in in comments!
Thank you very much !!
Claudio Arrau noted Horowitz's stiff arms and forearms in the book "Conversations with Arrau" and said he was baffled by it. Your analysis is provocative but raises some contradictory issues. Horowitz played many pieces new to his repertoire in his later years (see the Harold Schonberg biography). He did not have a new piano built in his later years to accommodate his need for a lighter action, he used older pianos and their regulation and voicing was fairly constantly maintained by Franz Mohr from the early 1960s on (read Mohr's book). And there's no evidence that Horowitz actually suffered from tendinitis or other digital issues that forced his sabbaticals and retirements. Both Wanda Landowska and Jose Iturbi (who studied with Landowska) played with similarly non-ergonomic curved upraised fingers and do not seem to have suffered, they played into their 70s (Iturbi into his 80s). Glenn Gould obviously played with elbows below the keyboard, although admittedly he used his arms freely. The fact is that Horowitz's personal anatomy enabled him to adopt his physical stance without suffering physical consequences. He had very large hands plus wrists and forearms of unusual girth and fleshiness--I know because I met him once backstage and shook his hand while carefully observing his hand, wrist, and forearm in that moment.
An inefficient technique doesn’t always lead to injury, but increases the chances drastically. Thanks for pointing to imprecision about the piano, but it was still regulated to the extreme light level.
Many people manage also to recover from injuries and get back to profession, some revealing their struggles, and some being rather reluctant to admit it. I am glad that in the last years piano related injuries don’t maintain a taboo status, and people are less ashamed to speak about it, as it often happened during the last century. Yes, my theory is just a theory based on my perspective, and probably we will never know the complete truth. He surely had a very unique physiology which in my opinion had both pros and cons, and yet I have my strong suspicions regarding his capacity to maintain the technical level he once had with this particular technical approach.
I agree with most of what you say-find this presentation in this video unconvincing. I disagree with your ending though. VH actually did not have a very large hand (he even comments on it-compared to Rachmaninoff, or Rubinstein, or obviously van Cliburn)-cetainly a large one, and long and porky fingers-but it was unusual in its developed muscles, especailly on top. Anyway for most music this "large" hand thing is a myth-Liszt himself they say only a 9th. I met himn also backstage, and he signed a program, but you couldn't get near his hands, and the program was passed through an aide. Did your really shake his hands?
@@labienus9968 My dear sir or madame, respectfully, you are impugning my veracity. Yes I was personally introduced to Horowitz backstage in 1975 by a well-known pianist whom he knew and whom I knew. And I remember the moment exactly as I describe it above, and I'm tired of people purporting to know the size of Horowitz's hand who have not physically experienced it in a handshake. And, for physical reference, I, like Liszt, can play 9ths, too. Let's all try to be a little more respectful, no?
What is it with the internet, the anonymity that brings such strange behavior out of people?..no wonder this coutry is such a mess. All you had to say dear sir, madame or whatever-that yes, I did actually shake hands with him. How about that? He was not as crazy as Gould, but many musicians don' t like having their hands shaken-OK, and when they do it is often barely one OK. I had a pianist friend who actually had some lessons with him, briefly, and when I told him about my experience backstage, he laughed and said he always gets the programs handed to him. Why I asked. Let's try to be a little less reactive and imagining the worst-after all this is not the Gaza war here. The crazy thing is I agreed with you, except for the hand size
As to hand size-except for people with absolutely enormous hands-Dr. J-shaking hands is a very deceptive way of gauging the size. Did you ever imagine, could it ever enter your brain that yes, you shook his hand, but may have misperceived its size? I think my description of his hands is reasonably accurate, and there is chapter and verse where others have described his hand-he himself mentions the sheer limitation when he played Rach for example. It was unusual compared to most people's but clearly not a massive paw.
@labienus9968 Now I'm being accused of misperception, which in essence redoubles the original affront. Essentially you are accusing me of lying. You're welcome to your own misperceptions.
Interesting! Also, was it true that he transported his own specially adapted piano with him on concert tours? If so, how was it adapted? Ray Banning, my teacher, admired Horowitz immensely. But in recent years, I have become more critical.
One expert watched a video of vlad play in slow motion, and I agree with that expert - who said that vlad's fingers and motions was like watching a 'thorough-bred race horse' --- ie. a top one. Top of its game. Spectacular. Amazing. And outstanding.
Started watching more of your videos; quite good. I am a technique maven, so listening/watching carefully. Amazing what he could do with his own "imperfect" technique. Thank you for checking out these celebrated historical aritsts. Compare with Argerich. Didn't know Graffman was his protoge. He knew how to sell and present himself.
I am responsible for my own piano health and progress, on the basis of the best wisdom and healthy preparation.